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Author Topic: How concerning is this?  (Read 9484 times)

Galway Eagle

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #175 on: September 10, 2019, 10:20:55 PM »
Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision?  Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area.  That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood.  With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.

I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison.  My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street.  I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life."  I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else.  That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.

I think its funny that the neighbourhood angle is considered. I'm only 28 and I consider the MU of now a "nerfy life" compared to when I even started in 2009. But the neighbourhood isn't as bad as it once was, the police force and military grade cameras everywhere are a huge deterrent, and there's a surprising amount of new businesses around, plus the Ambassador being a nice hotel helps bring a bit more money and puts a spotlight on the area as well for MPD.

If someone in High School was deterred because of current neighbourhood they probably aren't MU material in the first place.
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Disco Hippie

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #176 on: September 10, 2019, 10:48:22 PM »
Here are two MU Wire articles that shed a little more light on the enrollment goals. One from early May of this year about 2 weeks before the deposit deadline, the other from just a couple of weeks ago. 

Their enrollment goal for this fall's incoming Freshman class was 2,077 according to the Provost in the May article.  Their actual enrollment according to the August article ended up at 1,975, 102 short of goal.  I don't know much about higher education finance and budgeting but from everything I've read a 100 student shortfall can have a pretty significant impact on a tuition dependent school like MU.  How much did that play into the 2.5% cut?  Is it more than they're claiming and the future demographic stuff is just spin, as some on here believe?

The August article also says that incoming numbers from IL, although still the largest feeder state to MU, are down this year and that the IL market in particular has become increasingly competitive.   For those of you that live there and have high school age kids, I'd love to know your take on why you think that is.  Does it have anything to do with the state's recent conversion from ACT to SAT?  Might this have encouraged more kids to apply to schools out east that wouldn't have previously?  It's not like more colleges are opening in IL or anywhere else, so what is your take?  Links to both articles below, and kudos to the students' very solid reporting.

https://marquettewire.org/4012913/news/university-academic-senate-discusses-enrollment-and-democratic-national-convention/

https://marquettewire.org/4014920/news/total-enrollment-down-for-the-class-of-2023-college-of-communication-on-the-rise/

« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 10:51:42 PM by Disco Hippie »

Hards_Alumni

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #177 on: September 11, 2019, 05:08:42 AM »
Thanks everyone. Lot's of good discussion and information being shared.

One question: I read frequently, and have had the inclination to agree with, the sentiment that MU will never be "X", "Y" or "Z" school academically. But I ask, why not? When I attended MU in the early '90s schools like Iowa and Wisconsin were a few of the 'safety' schools for me and my MU friends and schools like Michigan State and Ohio State were not thought of highly at all for undergraduate degrees, but now I see those schools in the 100-50 range in the rankings. If those schools can raise their profile, why not MU?

To be clear, I don't think MU has to move from 80 to 50, but I don't view it as impossible.

Marquette won't move that high since they are not a research university.

Eldon

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #178 on: September 11, 2019, 07:18:14 AM »
Here are two MU Wire articles that shed a little more light on the enrollment goals. One from early May of this year about 2 weeks before the deposit deadline, the other from just a couple of weeks ago. 

Their enrollment goal for this fall's incoming Freshman class was 2,077 according to the Provost in the May article.  Their actual enrollment according to the August article ended up at 1,975, 102 short of goal.  I don't know much about higher education finance and budgeting but from everything I've read a 100 student shortfall can have a pretty significant impact on a tuition dependent school like MU.  How much did that play into the 2.5% cut?  Is it more than they're claiming and the future demographic stuff is just spin, as some on here believe?

The August article also says that incoming numbers from IL, although still the largest feeder state to MU, are down this year and that the IL market in particular has become increasingly competitive.   For those of you that live there and have high school age kids, I'd love to know your take on why you think that is.  Does it have anything to do with the state's recent conversion from ACT to SAT?  Might this have encouraged more kids to apply to schools out east that wouldn't have previously?  It's not like more colleges are opening in IL or anywhere else, so what is your take?  Links to both articles below, and kudos to the students' very solid reporting.

https://marquettewire.org/4012913/news/university-academic-senate-discusses-enrollment-and-democratic-national-convention/

https://marquettewire.org/4014920/news/total-enrollment-down-for-the-class-of-2023-college-of-communication-on-the-rise/

I don't have high school kids, but here's a couple of off-the-cuff thoughts:

1) Loyola has recently jumped in the rankings.  Their rise could be coming at MU's expense.

2) Lots of smaller schools in IL (and and a few in WI, for that matter) are now offering programs that weren't typically offered by smaller schools, e.g., nursing, business, engineering, etc.

3) Other neighboring states' schools are starting to recruit in IL.  For example, UWM advertises on Chicago radio.  I've even seen a UWM billboard or two in Chicago. 

Eldon

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #179 on: September 11, 2019, 07:19:42 AM »
Marquette won't move that high since they are not a research university.

Strictly speaking, any school categorized as a "national university" (in the USWNR) is considered a research university.  The research classifications range from R1 to R3.  Last I checked MU was an R2 school.

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #180 on: September 11, 2019, 08:10:42 AM »
Marquette won't move that high since they are not a research university.

Incorrect, at least as it relates to the category MU is in for these ratings.
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GOO

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #181 on: September 11, 2019, 08:50:41 AM »
I think there are a few keys in this thread.  One the acceptance rate is concerning, especially with an expected decline in the prospective student pool.  That is one of the reasons why planning ahead to downsize is important in my opinion.  Need to get out in front and not just try to maintain current size.  It is also one of the reasons that a focus on scholarships is more important now than ever. This is the combination that can make the difference: downsize and better scholarships.  The idea that it is a marketing problem ignore the reality of what other schools are doing in the scholarship area and ignore that Marquette is doing in its marketing. 

For someone who said they saved 30K in loans for a child by going to UW versus Marquette, I think I'd go with Marquette under those circumstances unless there was a particular major that Marquette did not have.  Marquette does a great job with undergrad education and job placement and for my kid the 30K difference would be worth a Marquette experience, values, etc...  Since UW was compared a few times, I do believe that US News, since they are a main topic, ranks MU ahead of UW for undergrad teaching and MU ahead of UW for best value.  If I can find the info quickly, I'll post it, otherwise if someone else has time they can verify.

GooooMarquette

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #182 on: September 11, 2019, 09:08:07 AM »

For someone who said they saved 30K in loans for a child by going to UW versus Marquette, I think I'd go with Marquette under those circumstances unless there was a particular major that Marquette did not have.  Marquette does a great job with undergrad education and job placement and for my kid the 30K difference would be worth a Marquette experience, values, etc...  Since UW was compared a few times, I do believe that US News, since they are a main topic, ranks MU ahead of UW for undergrad teaching and MU ahead of UW for best value.  If I can find the info quickly, I'll post it, otherwise if someone else has time they can verify.



IMHO, it goes beyond just the presence or absence of specific majors. My two daughters:

I live in MN, so while she could have opted for Madison, my older daughter went to the U of MN. The main reason was that she got into their honors program, which is fairly unique. At many schools (including UW), students in the "honors" program basically take the same classes as all other students, with the addition of one or two "honors" classes, and possibly a paper. At U of MN, it is totally different. Honors students essentially get a green light to self-tailor a course of study, and professors are told to give honors students the green light for most any class, even if they don't technically have all prerequisites or upperclass standing. Because of this, my daughter was able to take upperclass and even entry-level grad classes from the start, and build a transcript that she never would have had at MU or UW.

My younger daughter went into journalism. They have a Journalism (Communications?) major at MU but she also got into Mizzou, which has long been considered one of the best J-schools in the country. She went to Mizzou, and got an incredible education at far less cost than MU.

So it isn't just majors that don't exist at MU, but it can apply to broader programs or opportunities. And it can apply where MU and the other school both have the major, but the other school's program is clearly superior.

Anyhow, I am not arguing that MU isn't a great school - far from it. But as parents who are both MU alums, my wife and I were 100% in agreement with our daughters' decisions to go elsewhere.

GOO

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #183 on: September 11, 2019, 09:09:06 AM »
It looks like UW and MU are tied for undergrad teaching at 76:
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

For best value:
MU 55
UW 92

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value

This bolsters my impressions, for what US News ranking are worth, that I'd pick MU for undergrad in most cases over UW.  MU still has a lot of writing and professors that put the extra time into the undergrad students, etc, as opposed to just a lot of multiple choice tests, and big name profs that don't want to deal with undergrads (at least unless they have a 10 foot pole). 

But in the end it is what a student makes of it and fit.  Some kids would be best served at a small liberal arts college in a small town, with really small class sizes.  Some at a large school with large lecture halls where one can be more invisible.. some a bit of both, etc.

Marquette still gets it done in value for what you pay out and get back. Gotta keep this going, beset way a Marshall plan for scholarships funding at the expense of buildings. 

GooooMarquette: This post is not a response to your post. Timing.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:10:39 AM by GOO »

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #184 on: September 11, 2019, 09:28:40 AM »
Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision?  Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area.  That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood.  With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.

I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison.  My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street.  I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life."  I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else.  That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.

MUDPT - My daughter wanted an urban area school in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic or Coastal South. 
Marquette was her number 1 choice by a mile.  Neighborhood mattered not at all.  (The neighborhood is a million times better than my tenure from 1987-1991.)
She ended up at Xavier because she liked it best after Marquette, liked that it was Jesuit, liked the city location and they offered a significantly higher scholarships & grants.  To mirror GOO, to go to Marquette would have added $50k in student loans.  She told my wife and I, "I want to go there and love it, but not it's not worth that $ difference."

My niece is a Freshman at Marquette, but there were no significant grants or scholarships involved with her final school decisions so she picked the one she liked best.   

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #185 on: September 11, 2019, 09:36:05 AM »
Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision?  Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area.  That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood.  With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.

I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison.  My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street.  I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life."  I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else.  That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.

Neighborhood so much better now then when I was there.  One of my roomies was jumped twice and mugged.  We had a mini riot at the Brooks Union one night that must have had 20 cop cars arrive....that was quite the night.  Etc, etc.

Enough grit still to put an edge on things which is good.  Ultimately my oldest had a slew of schools to choose from traditional college campuses to urban ones.  He made the choice after visiting the “pretty” ones that he wanted the hustle and bustle of a city.  Pitt was one of his finalists that also fit the category.  He liked the energy of the city.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
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GOO

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #186 on: September 11, 2019, 10:07:44 AM »
The trend towards wanting to be in urban areas/cities is a big plus for MU. 

Thirty years ago the neighborhood was not as nice, and a lot of people avoided cities.  Now, it seems that everyone wants to be in cities and the MU neighborhood has improved a lot.  Two nice trends for MU.

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #187 on: September 11, 2019, 10:39:13 AM »
The trend towards wanting to be in urban areas/cities is a big plus for MU. 

Thirty years ago the neighborhood was not as nice, and a lot of people avoided cities.  Now, it seems that everyone wants to be in cities and the MU neighborhood has improved a lot.  Two nice trends for MU.

For some, yup.  My daughter and many others...cringe at the idea.  Definitely a plus for some.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #188 on: September 11, 2019, 11:21:38 AM »
I agree with you completely on this!   What I don't understand is why MU doesn't want to increase their pool of viable and qualified applicants.   The overwhelming majority of applicants to ivy's and their ilk are academically qualified to attend there.  Yes, they receive some lark applications from kids who have no chance, but that's a relatively small percentage and in most cases 80% of the applicant pool for the most elitist of elite institutions meet the academic criteria required and these schools overwhelmingly resort to non academic metrics or what they refer to as intangibles to decide who they accept and who they don't. 

Granted MU is never going to have the same demand that those schools do but if you compare MU to a place like say Fordham University in NYC, they're roughly the same size as MU, a little larger but that's due to their graduate students who comprise close to 40% of their enrollment.  Undergrad enrollment is only marginally more than MU, they're not ranked that much higher than us, yet they have over 40,000 applications and we have 15K?    Even more frustrating, Athletics are a non factor there, and given their location in the philanthropy capital of the U.S, their endowment isn't much more impressive than ours. Other than being in NYC which is certainly a selling point I'm not sure what makes them so much more popular??????




I don’t think you understand how expensive increasing the pool of “qualified applicants” would be. That’s not easy nor is it inexpensive.

Disco Hippie

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #189 on: September 11, 2019, 12:35:57 PM »

I don’t think you understand how expensive increasing the pool of “qualified applicants” would be. That’s not easy nor is it inexpensive.

I'm sure it's challenging and expensive but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be, they need to figure out a way.  Diversity is more than just racial and socio-economic.  Geographic diversity is important as well and I know it's not a high priority for them, but if the pool of college age students will  be shrinking as much as they say, especially in the upper midwest, they have to figure out a way to not only grow, but maintain quality of the applicant pool.

In the 70's (I assume for obvious reasons) almost 40% of the student body hailed from the Northeast and Mid Atlantic region.  It remained that way until the mid 80's but there was a precipitous decline starting around 1986 and it has never recovered.   The 2003 Final Four run provided a brief respite in the early 2000's but those gains were short lived, and the damage had already been done to such an extent that it would never have recovered to 70's levels.

There just aren't enough Alums in this area any more to help with recruiting it seems.  I do everything I can but it's very tough.  That said, All it takes is for one student to matriculate, and then word of mouth takes over.  10 years ago a student in a neighboring town decided to attend, she was a popular person as were her younger siblings, all 3 of whom also ended up going to MU over the next 5 years and that contributed to that high school sending 15-20 applications to MU annually and many matriculations.   If you look at the applicants from high schools in southwestern CT, most have 3-4 max (even the catholic high schools) but this one excellent PUBLIC high school has had 5x as many applicants to MU as almost every other high school nearby over the last 8 years, all because 1 student went there and and had a great experience.  Word of mouth is a HUGE factor. 

As I mentioned before, Miami of Ohio is the #1 most popular school for students in my town to apply too.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 12:46:48 PM by Disco Hippie »

warriorchick

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #190 on: September 11, 2019, 12:42:35 PM »
I'm sure it's challenging and expensive but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be, they need to figure out a way.  Diversity is more than just racial and socio-economic.  Geographic diversity is important as well and I know it's not a high priority for them, but if the pool of college age students will  be shrinking as much as they say, especially in the upper midwest, they have to figure out a way to both grow and maintain quality of the applicant pool.

In the 70's (I assume for obvious reasons) almost 40% of the student body hailed from the Northeast and Mid Atlantic region.  It remained that way until the mid 80's but there was a precipitous decline starting around 1986 and it never recovered.   The 2003 Final Four run provided a brief respite in the early 2000's but those gains were not short lived, and the damage had already been done.

There just aren't enough Alums in this area any more to help it seems.

Is this documented anywhere, or is this your guess? That sounds way high to me. 

I know that in the early-to-mid-80's, about 25% of the students were commuters.  If 40% were from the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, that means only 35% were from everywhere else - including Chicago, Wisconsin, and the rest of the country.
Have some patience, FFS.

StillAWarrior

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #191 on: September 11, 2019, 12:42:43 PM »
...but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be...

Honest question:  who is the "they" you're referring to in this sentence?  It seems to me that Marquette's recent focus suggests that "they" (i.e., the powers that be at Marquette) aren't really saying that "they" want to be a "National University."  Of course "they" will welcome students from all over, but the emphasis seems to be shifting to a more regional approach.

Not trying to be a smart ass here, I'm just wondering what you're referring to.
Go Marquette!

GooooMarquette

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #192 on: September 11, 2019, 12:46:19 PM »
The trend towards wanting to be in urban areas/cities is a big plus for MU. 

Thirty years ago the neighborhood was not as nice, and a lot of people avoided cities.  Now, it seems that everyone wants to be in cities and the MU neighborhood has improved a lot.  Two nice trends for MU.


Agreed. For both of my daughters, the urban location was more of a plus than a minus. When I attended in the early 80s, it was much more of a concern.

StillAWarrior

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #193 on: September 11, 2019, 12:52:14 PM »

Agreed. For both of my daughters, the urban location was more of a plus than a minus. When I attended in the early 80s, it was much more of a concern.

My son absolutely did not want an urban area.  My oldest daughter insisted on it.  Incidentally, she's visited Marquette the last couple years and really liked the location/environment.
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Disco Hippie

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #194 on: September 11, 2019, 01:05:28 PM »
Is this documented anywhere, or is this your guess? That sounds way high to me. 

I know that in the early-to-mid-80's, about 25% of the students were commuters.  If 40% were from the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, that means only 35% were from everywhere else - including Chicago, Wisconsin, and the rest of the country.

That's what I've been told, although admittedly I haven't seen any official data.   Anecdotally though it seems accurate and I"ll tell you why.  For the first probably 10 years after I graduated in the early 90's, I was even more active in the NYC area alumni club as I am now, and at that time the overwhelming majority of alums you would encounter were originally from the Northeast and just went to MU for school.  If they weren't from the NYC area originally they tended to be folks from Boston, Philly, Baltimore, or DC but working in NYC and most were considerably older than me and graduated in the late 70's / early 80's.  Of course there were some Midwestern transplants working in NYC as well but they were a minority in the Alumni club at the time.

Today, it's the complete opposite and the overwhelming majority of active participants in the NYC club are Midwestern transplants largely from Greater Chicago and WI as one would expect.  Folks originally from the NE are rare at NYC Alum events these days, and the few that are tend to be in their 60's or older.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 01:08:49 PM by Disco Hippie »

warriorchick

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #195 on: September 11, 2019, 01:17:02 PM »
That's what I've been told, although admittedly I haven't seen any official data.   Anecdotally though it seems accurate and I tell you why.  For the first probably 8-9 years after I graduated in the early 90's I was even more active in the NYC area alumni club then as I am now, and at that time the overwhelming majority of alums you would encounter were originally from the Northeast and just went to MU for school.  If they weren't from the NYC area originally they tended to be folks from Boston, Philly, Baltimore, or DC but working in NYC and most were considerably older than me and graduated in the late 70's / early 80's.  Of course there were some Midwestern transplants working in NYC as well but they were a minority in the Alumni club at the time.

Today, it's the complete opposite and the overwhelming majority of active participants in the NYC club are Midwestern transplants from the midwest, and folks originally from the NE are rare outliers.

I graduated in the mid-80's so I am speaking from an anecdotal angle that might be a little better than yours. There is no way that 40% of Marquette students were from the East Coast.  If you don't believe me, pull up some yearbooks from that time period.  They contain the permanent addresses of all of the graduating seniors.

http://cdm16280.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4007hilltop/id/15390

Also, what makes you think you can gauge the number of students from the East Coast based on the people who show up for Marquette Club functions in NYC?  Did it ever occur to you that transplants might need to network more than homegrown folks and that's why they participate? 
Have some patience, FFS.

cheebs09

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #196 on: September 11, 2019, 01:21:51 PM »


As I mentioned before, Miami of Ohio is the #1 most popular school for students in my town to apply too.

Could that be because it’s thought of as one of the top party schools in the country?

warriorchick

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #197 on: September 11, 2019, 01:35:42 PM »
Could that be because it’s thought of as one of the top party schools in the country?

Common sight during late August in Disco Hippie's town:

« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 06:58:43 PM by mu_hilltopper »
Have some patience, FFS.

StillAWarrior

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #198 on: September 11, 2019, 01:42:09 PM »
Could that be because it’s thought of as one of the top party schools in the country?

It's not even the top party school in Ohio.
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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #199 on: September 11, 2019, 02:21:51 PM »
I'm sure it's challenging and expensive but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be, they need to figure out a way. 


They already are a national university.