MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Warrior of Law on September 06, 2019, 07:55:15 AM
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I'm not an expert of higher education budgeting and financing, but this is the 1st time I've ever heard of a university trimming staff based on future/demographic changes. Usually, cuts are reactive to a real-time reduction in enrollment, etc.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/05/marquette-lays-off-24-faculty-and-staff-leaves-50-positions-unfilled/2225523001/
The data that Dr. Lovell cites is really interesting. While not directly basketball-related, this appears to be a foundational issue.
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I mentioned this in the other Superbar topic. "Demographics" is Lovell spin. Those demographics were well known long before this fall. He proposed budgets that deficit financed various projects meant to spur enrollment, had pie in the sky projections that haven't panned out, and now this is the result. They have had to discount way too much to get their classes so the revenue simply isn't there.
It's very concerning and Lovell should be on the hot seat. The Board has to be asking questions.
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Oof. Structural deficits are difficult. Especially in this environment. You can get away with that at a public university because you aren't as tuition dependent, and the "system" can help you out, but its real tough at a private university.
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Serious question: If MUBB had remained a national basketball power these past ~7 years, routine top 25 rankings, somewhat-annual trips to the 2nd weekend of March .. do these layoffs happen?
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Yes.
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Marquette should be planning to accomplish two major items: (1) down size the number of students - changes are happening in demographics AND a four year college education will be less and less important (we are already seeing this trend) with the ability to more easily assess the ability to do/learn, etc and (2) more scholarships - more generous scholarships - the scholarship arms race has begun and schools that are expensive and don't recruit the best students and offer generous scholarships will continue to slip. Both of these seem so obvious.
I"ve been saying this for a long time and most have shot it down and say we need to expand or stay large. They say we have all of these buildings, etc, and you can't just downsize. Well, change is upon us, get out front or perish. Online education is coming. A nice expensive 4 year degree will be like studying the classics at Oxford... a great thing indeed, but not for most or what most will want and seek out.
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Marquette tuition has skyrocketed over the last 5 yrs
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Marquette should be planning to accomplish two major items: (1) down size the number of students - changes are happening in demographics AND a four year college education will be less and less important (we are already seeing this trend) with the ability to more easily assess the ability to do/learn, etc and (2) more scholarships - more generous scholarships - the scholarship arms race has begun and schools that are expensive and don't recruit the best students and offer generous scholarships will continue to slip. Both of these seem so obvious.
I"ve been saying this for a long time and most have shot it down and say we need to expand or stay large. They say we have all of these buildings, etc, and you can't just downsize. Well, change is upon us, get out front or perish. Online education is coming. A nice expensive 4 year degree will be like studying the classics at Oxford... a great thing indeed, but not for most or what most will want and seek out.
It may not be a bad idea to downsize, but why do you think a four year college education is less important? The income gap between those with a four year degree and those without continues to grow.
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Marquette tuition has skyrocketed over the last 5 yrs
tuition everywhere has. I was looking at some costs of other Catholic schools (all in, not just tuition) and they ranged from $56K to nearly $69K a year.
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tuition everywhere has.
Not Purdue. Here's to hoping they can hold off another (https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2019/Q1/purdue-announces-ongoing-tuition-freeze,-staff-appreciation-payment-for-west-lafayette-campus.html) four years before an increase.
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At least MU is in a position where they could reduce 1/3 of the undergrad enrollment and remain solvent. I don't see much hope for the smaller, private schools in the Midwest. There are public UW schools that are shrinking, too.
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Tuition is crazy, lots of reasons for that, but people are getting smarter and not going to accept the status quo of getting loans to cover the difference and figure it out later. Who in there right mind would accept going into 200k of debt for a k-12 teaching position these days. My wife was making under 60k with 10 years experience and a masters degree in a suburban district. It would take her 2 lifetimes to pay off that degree, let alone save for retirement/children/etc... I understand as a parent I've prepared and I'm willing to pay for "experience" somewhat, but at a point it just becomes absurd. There are a tons of professional careers where it's difficult if not impossible to get past 70k-80k in salary.
Pragmatically, I can't figure out why I would pay in the 40-50s for MU vs 16k for a UW-X degree in the right program for my non-academic scholar son.
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Marquette should be planning to accomplish two major items: (1) down size the number of students - changes are happening in demographics AND a four year college education will be less and less important (we are already seeing this trend) with the ability to more easily assess the ability to do/learn, etc and (2) more scholarships - more generous scholarships - the scholarship arms race has begun and schools that are expensive and don't recruit the best students and offer generous scholarships will continue to slip. Both of these seem so obvious.
I"ve been saying this for a long time and most have shot it down and say we need to expand or stay large. They say we have all of these buildings, etc, and you can't just downsize. Well, change is upon us, get out front or perish. Online education is coming. A nice expensive 4 year degree will be like studying the classics at Oxford... a great thing indeed, but not for most or what most will want and seek out.
I hope you don't actually want MU to downsize the number of students. Especially since that is the revenue model that they have. They should be shifting students and increasing the number of students to an online education. Directional a lot of this is heading in this direction. Online class could be sold at a reduced cost. Regardless, MU needs students to be on campus to build the culture of Marquette. That network and emotional connection is what MU sells.
Unfortunately, college is going to be the next big bubble. As online class take hold the fewer limitations of the physical space will mean the fewer universities that are needed. Harvard can have an "unlimited" class to cover the reduction in revenue.
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This is a really serious concern. It isn't just the demographics (which, by the way, we also went through after the Boomers worked their way through the educational system), it's the intersection of costs and demographics.
Think of it this way. Marquette is competing for quality students with such schools as Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana and Purdue, Michigan and Minnesota. All are good schools with great reputations and their grads tend to be well-equipped for the real world. Even traditionally average universities like Tennessee and other SEC schools are stepping their game up in no small measure to compete for students who traditionally would consider Marquette.
Marquette does great things every day. But at an all-in cost of $60,000 list, the number is scary, especially compared to the price of the above-listed schools. Period. That's about $240,000 for four years, without tuition increases. By contrast, that's about what the cost of educating both of my children has been at State U.
I know Marquette will negotiate rates for students they want. But to go 50 percent off-the-card is unlikely. The challenge then is to somehow explain the value one gets for the incremental cost at Marquette. In other words, what's the value or values arising from a Marquette education that's unique to Marquette. Sell it, guys and gals. Sell it!
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It's very concerning and Lovell should be on the hot seat. The Board has to be asking questions.
They're 0-2 in recent Presidential hires. I'm scared to see what they come up with in a potential third act.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
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Dgies and dw3d:
I hear ya. I had mixed feelings when son decided to attend Madison, but the prospect of graduating (hopefully) with zero debt from UW, as opposed to $30k from MU made his decision a no-brainer.
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However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
Very well said.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
Superb comment, Dr. B.
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I have a few comments, but I will wait until this is put on the Superbar board.
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However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
I agree with you. But how are you planning to pay for this? Those students cost more. They take more financial aid to get to campus and they place a heavier burden on services such as your academic support. Furthermore these students don't retain from year to year at the same level, which means you have to recruit even more students to fill your class. And we live in an era where federal financial aid programs have been cut drastically and turned into loans.
So you are either going to have to raise more money in scholarships to support these students, and/or recruit more students that will pay more than it costs to educate them. This is I think exactly where Marquette is right now.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
Home run, Doc.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
Not sure about that, Doc.
You can look at schools like Notre Dame, which was also historically considered a "blue-collar" school, and they are now considered elite. Many Catholic colleges were founded because our religion was heavily discriminated against (look at College of the Holy Cross, as another example of a "blue collar" school which is now considered elite).
I think Marquette investing heavily and striving to be better with its academic requirements is a worthy cause and a smart move.
But I completely agree with your suggestion that Marquette should never lose its focus on helping those who may need help, whether it's immigrant families or under served communities.
I think a balance can be achieved, where the academic reputation and resources continue to improve (and therefore become more interesting to academic over achievers) while still never forgetting and adhering to the original foundation and principles of yesteryear.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
+1 On this -- to the how to pay for it question, innovation is needed to reduce the cost to deliver a bachelors degree . This has to be a lever and could be an area MU can also lead.
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Not sure about that, Doc.
You can look at schools like Notre Dame, which was also historically considered a "blue-collar" school, and they are now considered elite. Many Catholic colleges were founded because our religion was heavily discriminated against (look at College of the Holy Cross, as another example of a "blue collar" school which is now considered elite).
I think Marquette investing heavily and striving to be better with its academic requirements is a worthy cause and a smart move.
But I completely agree with your suggestion that Marquette should never lose its focus on helping those who may need help, whether it's immigrant families or under served communities.
I think a balance can be achieved, where the academic reputation and resources continue to improve (and therefore become more interesting to academic over achievers) while still never forgetting and adhering to the original foundation and principles of yesteryear.
I think that's exactly what they are trying to do. And it's hard to blame Lovell & Co for betting on themselves, but deficit financing is a hard way to do it. It's worked for Marquette in the past though. This is nothing compared to what was facing the DiUlio administration in the mid-90s, but it's hard to imagine what Marquette would have turned into without the Campus Circle project.
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MU really needs to give up the laughable notion that they’re on Georgetown’s academic level. Most of the masked GPAs and ACT scores I saw on Naviance.com from the students MU admitted in my son’s high school class would never have been met GU’s standards. Not even close
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Dr. B
A+++ post.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
Some good points, but plenty to disagree with too. What our wheelhouse is will lead to a poorer endowment.
What you described as what we were was a different world, different costs, etc. I may be understanding you incorrectly, but it sounds like you are saying broaden the acceptance, potentially lower standards (I said potentially before everyone freaks out)....are you not setting up MU as just an everyday state school?
When you do that, you better be prepared to lower the cost, and when you do that you will lose valuable profs, and then when you do that you cycle down in other areas.
So though I acknowledge your points and they are valid in a world of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, I’m not sure going back there does anything but accelerate things because costs for college have increased so much, so have salaries and all the trappings that went with those cost increases.
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MU really needs to give up the laughable notion that they’re on Georgetown’s academic level. Most of the masked GPAs and ACT scores I saw on Naviance.com from the students MU admitted in my son’s class would never have been met GU’s standards. Not even close
Marquette compares itself to 22 "referent institutions," of which Georgetown is one. However they clearly state that "The group is aspirational by design, with 17 of the 22 schools ranking higher than Marquette in the U.S. News and World Report Best National Universities ranking."
So why they do *compare* themselves to Georgetown, I doubt anyone seriously considers Marquette on the same academic level as Georgetown.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
I mostly agree, but the part about the so-called minority becoming the majority is not true. There is no single "minority" class and demographically, when white Americans fall below 50%, it will simply represent a change where everyone is a minority because there will no longer be any demographic majority.
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Some good points, but plenty to disagree with too. What our wheelhouse is will lead to a poorer endowment.
It's actually the opposite. Marquette's relatively small endowment prevents the institution from investing more in these types of programs.
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Generally speaking it looks like the guys from the 70’s that are stuck there on hoops are also in same situation with the school’s direction. Not surprising and I don’t say that negatively. Just a different POV.
I just feel the world is massively different now and are you factoring that in? Back in the day when MU was only 2X or 3X the cost has changed. Now 5x bs some places. So unless you are prepared to lower the standards, which is what I think will happen, feels like a bad strategy.
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I mostly agree, but the part about the so-called minority becoming the majority is not true. There is no single "minority" class and demographically, when white Americans fall below 50%, it will simply represent a change where everyone is a minority because there will no longer be any demographic majority.
But who will have privilege then?
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It's actually the opposite. Marquette's relatively small endowment prevents the institution from investing more in these types of programs.
My point is if you lower the standards and take just anyone, they go on to get just any jobs and your endowment isn’t going to grow. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
There is a reason why most schools with strong endowments tend to be better academic institutions. Not sure why I see the rush to lower our academic pursuits, other than some here thinking it will satiate their basketball fix and allow more players to get in....which is insane in my opinion, but I have heard this argument before...UCLA alum the latest crying about it.
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But who will have privilege then?
The same people that do now. One can be both privileged and part of a minority. But please, do bring your victimhood to every thread.
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Pragmatically, I can't figure out why I would pay in the 40-50s for MU vs 16k for a UW-X degree in the right program for my non-academic scholar son.
Yep.
Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.
At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.
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The same people that do now. One can be both privileged and part of a minority. But please, do bring your victimhood to every thread.
I don’t have it nor an ounce of guilt you try to shove down people’s throats.
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Yep.
Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.
At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.
My son wanted to escape California, he had multiple options in private and public schools. MU put a nice package together and he chose that even over my reservations. For him it was size of school, urban environment, etc. Some of his other alternatives were bigger and cheaper, huge campus’ that didn’t appeal. Different strokes for different folks.
The big problem I see is MU can never compete on price. Just no way. To do so would mean gutting the school staff, programs, etc....doing that would devalue the institution. Therefore your options are either to have highly specialized programs that draw students because of the uniqueness of them, take up the academics to a higher level to justify the cost and hopefully the return on the back end, or some combination of solutions.
When I had dinner with about 10 students in the Spring on campus there were some striking comments. One was the academic level of their peers. They said some were off the charts smart, while there were some that they couldn’t believe were accepted at all. The latter cohort makes me wonder if they were filling to a number, or just taking a chance on some kids.
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Students said the exact same thing when we were there. If they didn't, they weren't paying attention.
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Students said the exact same thing when we were there. If they didn't, they weren't paying attention.
I agree, and back then the standards were average. Many alums that were accepted back in our day would not be today, which is why it surprised me to hear now. I fully expected it back in the 80’s, but with the improvements made academically I was surprised to hear it as much.
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I agree, and back then the standards were average. Many alums that were accepted back in our day would not be today, which is why it surprised me to hear now. I fully expected it back in the 80’s, but with the improvements made academically I was surprised to hear it as much.
Need the rich, dumb (dare I say privileged??) kids that can pay full freight to keep the cash flow up.
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Industries that experience bubbles relative to value/etc, tend to experience a burst. That applies across the board, not just to MU. The bubble phenomenon exists at state schools, too, where money has been spent on truly frivolous things.
Key industries with the ability to take down an entire economy tend to be propped up in their time of need, regardless of how far gone the individual players strayed from their original mission, or how much money they killed. MU is an individual school, but the feds won't allow the entire university system to collapse under its own weight. Anyone that believes that also likely has 20 years worth of food in a fallout shelter somewhere.
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nm
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Industries that experience bubbles relative to value/etc, tend to experience a burst. That applies across the board, not just to MU. The bubble phenomenon exists at state schools, too, where money has been spent on truly frivolous things.
Key industries with the ability to take down an entire economy tend to be propped up in their time of need, regardless of how far gone the individual players strayed from their original mission, or how much money they killed. MU is an individual school, but the feds won't allow the entire university system to collapse under its own weight. Anyone that believes that also likely has 20 years worth of food in a fallout shelter somewhere.
One of the reasons I loaded up on Citi during the financial crisis because the gov’t wasn’t going to let them fail. Same for GM. MU doesn’t have that fallback or a million system alumni begging the state or feds to keep it solvent like a state system does. (UC, UW, SUNY).
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I don’t have it nor an ounce of guilt you try to shove down people’s throats.
Oh is that why you keep bringing it up in various threads? ::) ;D
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I agree with you. But how are you planning to pay for this? Those students cost more. They take more financial aid to get to campus and they place a heavier burden on services such as your academic support. Furthermore these students don't retain from year to year at the same level, which means you have to recruit even more students to fill your class. And we live in an era where federal financial aid programs have been cut drastically and turned into loans.
So you are either going to have to raise more money in scholarships to support these students, and/or recruit more students that will pay more than it costs to educate them. This is I think exactly where Marquette is right now.
Well, that was the business model that has worked in most universities for a generation or two. And now it isn't. So doing what we have been doing means more death by 1000 papercuts.
I will take all the investments MU has made in the elite programs and move them into rediscovering our mission. Unlike many of us who had college educated role models in our households, these kids might not have one. It takes different programs.
I will give you a real life example I helped with volunteer hours so I am not just blowing smoke. A long-time Catholic high school with a strong legacy alumni base was experiencing shrinking enrollment, to the point where they were going to close. They saw Catholic feeder schools around them closing. The suburb was transitioning towards working class Hispanic who didn't go to private schools. They also saw the wealthier Catholic schools in newer suburbs growing. They didn't know what to do.
I did what any of us would do in business--I analyzed it. Their local market share had dropped with the demographic shift. We challenged the institutional biases through other research donated by my suppliers .
What we found was these Hispanic families would love to send their kids there as they were strongly Catholic and aspirational for their kids, but they didn't even think it was possible because of tuition costs or that they felt not wanted as no one had ever talked to them. The school, comprised of almost all white upper middle class families/alums didn't even know how to talk to them.
So, the school was faced with closing or doing something different. They engaged their strongest asset: Their Alumni, who were mostly unaware of the situation. Instead of recruiting at Catholic schools, they recruited at churches and Hispanic outreach events. They created scholarship funds via a capital drive. Legacy families who were getting multi-kid discounts refused them so that need based kids could receive bigger scholarships. Someone else donated computers as they found having a computer at home was a big thing--so the school offered one for free. Apathetic alumni volunteered as mentors and role models to these first generation kids. They instituted an assimilation program that if kids and parents completed, they would get a $1000 tuition grant. They also discovered odd things like Hispanic parents were afraid of the financial aid forms as "the government could trace" them...which led to a positive for the Catholic school as this wasn't a government institution. Word of mouth spread.
Ten years later. The school is flourishing. Instead of 100% white, it is 27% minority and growing. 76% get financial aid. They just built a new multi-million Heath Science center and expanded their AP offerings. And heaven forbid, 100% of their kids go on to college. Such elitism.
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One of the reasons I loaded up on Citi during the financial crisis because the gov’t wasn’t going to let them fail. Same for GM. MU doesn’t have that fallback or a million system alumni begging the state or feds to keep it solvent like a state system does. (UC, UW, SUNY).
C is a split adjusted $6.50. Stock is a dog. If you loaded up on that you missed the ride in the stock market since March 2009.
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My son wanted to escape California, he had multiple options in private and public schools. MU put a nice package together and he chose that even over my reservations. For him it was size of school, urban environment, etc. Some of his other alternatives were bigger and cheaper, huge campus’ that didn’t appeal. Different strokes for different folks.
Yeah, things like that are always wild cards. If a person loves a place and alternatives just don't fit the bill, they'll go regardless.
My older daughter actually preferred the larger campus at U of MN, so it probably would have taken a free ride (or close) to get her to MU.
My younger daughter loved the size and urban location of MU, and it killed her to say no. But Mizzou's J-school is awfully good, and then Mizzou surprised her with a nice scholarship. She never expected that from a state school in another state, especially one with such a well-known program. In the end, she ended up paying about what in-state tuition would have cost for us.
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When I had dinner with about 10 students in the Spring on campus there were some striking comments. One was the academic level of their peers. They said some were off the charts smart, while there were some that they couldn’t believe were accepted at all. The latter cohort makes me wonder if they were filling to a number, or just taking a chance on some kids.
MU is a tuition-driven institution and therefore it is incumbent to meet admissions goals. Standards are going to be higher for early applicants but as you move into April and May and the schools see the number of acceptances of admission they're going to get desperate and start making a push to other students who were either waitlisted or make a push to people with lower qualifications than were contacted based on College Board info.
Retention also becomes a big issue - can kids and parents justify the costs of continuing?
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
This guy fox.
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Well, that was the business model that has worked in most universities for a generation or two. And now it isn't. So doing what we have been doing means more death by 1000 papercuts.
I will take all the investments MU has made in the elite programs and move them into rediscovering our mission. Unlike many of us who had college educated role models in our households, these kids might not have one. It takes different programs.
I will give you a real life example I helped with volunteer hours so I am not just blowing smoke. A long-time Catholic high school with a strong legacy alumni base was experiencing shrinking enrollment, to the point where they were going to close. They saw Catholic feeder schools around them closing. The suburb was transitioning towards working class Hispanic who didn't go to private schools. They also saw the wealthier Catholic schools in newer suburbs growing. They didn't know what to do.
I did what any of us would do in business--I analyzed it. Their local market share had dropped with the demographic shift. We challenged the institutional biases through other research donated by my suppliers .
What we found was these Hispanic families would love to send their kids there as they were strongly Catholic and aspirational for their kids, but they didn't even think it was possible because of tuition costs or that they felt not wanted as no one had ever talked to them. The school, comprised of almost all white upper middle class families/alums didn't even know how to talk to them.
So, the school was faced with closing or doing something different. They engaged their strongest asset: Their Alumni, who were mostly unaware of the situation. Instead of recruiting at Catholic schools, they recruited at churches and Hispanic outreach events. They created scholarship funds via a capital drive. Legacy families who were getting multi-kid discounts refused them so that need based kids could receive bigger scholarships. Someone else donated computers as they found having a computer at home was a big thing--so the school offered one for free. Apathetic alumni volunteered as mentors and role models to these first generation kids. They instituted an assimilation program that if kids and parents completed, they would get a $1000 tuition grant. They also discovered odd things like Hispanic parents were afraid of the financial aid forms as "the government could trace" them...which led to a positive for the Catholic school as this wasn't a government institution. Word of mouth spread.
Ten years later. The school is flourishing. Instead of 100% white, it is 27% minority and growing. 76% get financial aid. They just built a new multi-million Heath Science center and expanded their AP offerings. And heaven forbid, 100% of their kids go on to college. Such elitism.
Doc, feels like we are doing this already.
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C is a split adjusted $6.50. Stock is a dog. If you loaded up on that you missed the ride in the stock market since March 2009.
I loaded up and sold. Bought it for next to nothing. Worked out well.
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I agree with you. But how are you planning to pay for this? Those students cost more. They take more financial aid to get to campus and they place a heavier burden on services such as your academic support. Furthermore these students don't retain from year to year at the same level, which means you have to recruit even more students to fill your class. And we live in an era where federal financial aid programs have been cut drastically and turned into loans.
So you are either going to have to raise more money in scholarships to support these students, and/or recruit more students that will pay more than it costs to educate them. This is I think exactly where Marquette is right now.
It is not an either or. You can go to a modified continuing ed model. You have the regular curriculum for direct admission and enrollment. Those can have as high of standards as possible. It is your normal on campus, intensive, low student-faculty ratio, that makes an MU education more valuable and more rigorous than the state schools.
You accomplish the mission, by having a separate degree track for 1st generation students or atypical age enrollees that would not meet the normal admission standards. They are admitted to an online-based curriculum. Same courses in terms of content (very easy to record all the lectures for your main curriculum courses during a regular semester so they can be available online), but testing is done through certified testing services. These students lose the 1 on 1 value, and some of the intensiveness of the courses, but can then get a degree at their own pace.
The latter can be deeply discounted as a pay per credit hour model. That way they can service these students, while not jeopardizing the rigor and rankings of the MU brand.
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I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.
However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority. More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation. Guess what? That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.
Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.
This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers. We have lost our way people.
Doc, Marquette has never had a more diverse student body. They are taking in more and more first generation college students. They are well on mission. You seem to have this idea that students who "break down social barriers" can't also be elite academically. Why?
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Doc, Marquette has never had a more diverse student body. They are taking in more and more first generation college students. They are well on mission. You seem to have this idea that students who "break down social barriers" can't also be elite academically. Why?
What I am against is using elitism as an electric fence barrier to inclusion and diversity. Tomorrow's students and their needs will be very different and will require a very different model. Yes, MU is starting to pivot in how they recruit the last few years...yet they are struggling on the university side because they are trying to pivot another way at the same time to something it isn't. As I said, MU has lost its way a bit..although the way is right in front of them.
It's going to be a rough five years. MU has been down this elite path before under DiUlio and Pilarz. It took Bobby Wild to save the University twice. I like Lovell and his ideas, but he has a lot of ideas but not the budget or ability to implement them with effect.
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It's going to be a rough five years.
Explain?
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Is there a reason this thread isn't in Superbar? In any case, it's somewhat concerning and sad to see the university have to resort to these measures and show long time, presumably dedicated faculty and employees the door, but I take comfort that MU fared quite well in the WSJ College rankings that were released the other day and believe they are reasonably well positioned moving forward. WSJ unfortunately is behind a subscription wall but scoopers who are Journal subscribers can access them.
This is a really important thread and it seems to me MU is going through somewhat of an identity crisis. We all care a great deal about our mutual alma-mater and having read through this carefully, there isn't a single post I disagree with. Folks on both sides of the future direction of the university make valid points. I've been posting on this topic for years so here's my take as a very proud MU alum but also as a native east coaster who headed home after graduation and has historically had a POV that's very different than the majority of scoopers:
MU must remain true to it's Jesuit mission and find ways to make higher education more accessible to low income and first generation students, but it seems to me they would be able to provide more meaningful assistance to those qualified underprivileged students who truly need it if they had a higher percentage of full pay or close to full pay families. Both ND, where my younger brother attended, and BC, (run by DiUlio's #2 at MU from the 90's for last 23 years) are notoriously stingy with aid and a have a lot of students from families that can afford to pay full tuition. It may not be high on a percentage basis, but my guess is even if only 15% of their students get no aid whatsoever, that's probably an extraordinarily high percentage compared to most other schools. Although ND and BC are notoriously stingy with aid for chattering upper middle class families, they're very generous with aid for their students who really need it. Granted having a 13B and 3B endowment respectively helps tremendously, and MU obviously can't compete with that, but then why has MU doubled down and focused recruiting relentlessly on students from families who they know can't afford virtually any tuition whatsoever before they've even identified who they are?
Dr. Blackheart's post in particular about the high school's turnaround was very intriguing but given the cost differential between catholic/private secondary/high school vs college I'm not sure the same approach can be replicated for MU. What MU could do is make an effort to recruit more at public high schools in well to do zip codes on the coasts and that could have a significant effect. The amount of families on the east coast who forgo their excellent state flagships in favor of paying out of state tuition at places like UW Madison, Miami of Ohio, the University of South Carolina, Clemson, UT Austin, UCLA, etc, is absolutely staggering. MU could easily compete with some of these schools if they wanted to, they just don't make an effort and it's absolutely mind boggling. It seems to me if MU got even a small number of these types of students it would have a noticeable (if not meaningful) impact on their financial position and enable them to remain true to their mission and provide even more help to those students who truly need it.
Thoughts?
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Serious question: If MUBB had remained a national basketball power these past ~7 years, routine top 25 rankings, somewhat-annual trips to the 2nd weekend of March .. do these layoffs happen?
10-12% bump in applicants if F4.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/cartercoudriet/2018/04/03/how-hoops-success-helps-colleges-get-applicants/amp/
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10-12% bump in applicants if F4.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/cartercoudriet/2018/04/03/how-hoops-success-helps-colleges-get-applicants/amp/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/sports/ncaa-applicants/
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Serious question: If MUBB had remained a national basketball power these past ~7 years, routine top 25 rankings, somewhat-annual trips to the 2nd weekend of March .. do these layoffs happen?
Other serious question, how does consistent negative coverage of school (sexual assaults, etc) impact things, especially female perspective students?
No doubt athletics can benefit (Flutie Effect), and plenty of examples where little to no impact, too. A combination of factors, but negative pub also can be a detriment, too.
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Other serious question, how does consistent negative coverage of school (sexual assaults, etc) impact things, especially female perspective students?
No doubt athletics can benefit (Flutie Effect), and plenty of examples where little to no impact, too. A combination of factors, but negative pub also can be a detriment, too.
Michigan State's applications grew quite a bit this past year. Would the number of applications due to their Final 4 appearance have been even higher if not for their multiple criminal offenses?
https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/record-applications-propel-msu-incoming-class/
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I loaded up and sold. Bought it for next to nothing. Worked out well.
Stock did absolutely nothing. What did you load up on. Financials have been a sh## for years with C the poster child for garbage.
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Michigan State's applications grew quite a bit this past year. Would the number of applications due to their Final 4 appearance have been even higher if not for their multiple criminal offenses?
https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/record-applications-propel-msu-incoming-class/
They grew compared to the previous year, where they bottomed out. Also, this past year was MSU’s first using the Common App. They also lowered their admission requirements.
Also, MSU being a public, flagship university is not as affected positively by athletic success as a private school. Kids in MI are going to apply to MSU and UM anyway.
https://wwmt.com/news/on-point/msu-applications-down-following-nassar-scandal-spartans-move-to-common-app
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They grew compared to the previous year, where they bottomed out. Also, this past year was MSU’s first using the Common App. They also lowered their admission requirements.
Also, MSU being a public, flagship university is not as affected positively by athletic success as a private school. Kids in MI are going to apply to MSU and UM anyway.
https://wwmt.com/news/on-point/msu-applications-down-following-nassar-scandal-spartans-move-to-common-app
Maybe I reacted to the headline that quoted “record applications”. Thanks for the background. None-the-less, despite the criminal element and the disgusting university and sports powers that be who enabled it, the positive reach of winning seemingly outweighs the negative. Hard to believe Izzo still has a job...but that is the world of the NCAA. I wouldn’t call him a role model, friend or mentor.
https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn
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I mentioned this in the other Superbar topic. "Demographics" is Lovell spin. Those demographics were well known long before this fall. He proposed budgets that deficit financed various projects meant to spur enrollment, had pie in the sky projections that haven't panned out, and now this is the result. They have had to discount way too much to get their classes so the revenue simply isn't there.
It's very concerning and Lovell should be on the hot seat. The Board has to be asking questions.
Interesting a president addressing a well recognized decline in birth rates that will decrease the future pool of students should be on the hot seat for taking proactive corrective steps? Sounds like good management.
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Michigan State's applications grew quite a bit this past year. Would the number of applications due to their Final 4 appearance have been even higher if not for their multiple criminal offenses?
https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/record-applications-propel-msu-incoming-class/
According to ESPN the opposite happened
https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/25430618/applications-michigan-state-university-drop-larry-nassar-sexual-assault-scandals-espn-lines
Gotta love the media
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MSU's applications grew from 2018 to 2019 because the school for the first time accepted applications through a system that allows students to apply to multiple schools at the same time.
Applications dropped significantly from 2017 to 2018, as ESPN accurately reported, citing data provided by MSU.
And again, someone blames "the media" for being unable to read and/or accurately describe the stories he links here.
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Well, that was the business model that has worked in most universities for a generation or two. And now it isn't. So doing what we have been doing means more death by 1000 papercuts.
I will take all the investments MU has made in the elite programs and move them into rediscovering our mission. Unlike many of us who had college educated role models in our households, these kids might not have one. It takes different programs.
I will give you a real life example I helped with volunteer hours so I am not just blowing smoke. A long-time Catholic high school with a strong legacy alumni base was experiencing shrinking enrollment, to the point where they were going to close. They saw Catholic feeder schools around them closing. The suburb was transitioning towards working class Hispanic who didn't go to private schools. They also saw the wealthier Catholic schools in newer suburbs growing. They didn't know what to do.
I did what any of us would do in business--I analyzed it. Their local market share had dropped with the demographic shift. We challenged the institutional biases through other research donated by my suppliers .
What we found was these Hispanic families would love to send their kids there as they were strongly Catholic and aspirational for their kids, but they didn't even think it was possible because of tuition costs or that they felt not wanted as no one had ever talked to them. The school, comprised of almost all white upper middle class families/alums didn't even know how to talk to them.
So, the school was faced with closing or doing something different. They engaged their strongest asset: Their Alumni, who were mostly unaware of the situation. Instead of recruiting at Catholic schools, they recruited at churches and Hispanic outreach events. They created scholarship funds via a capital drive. Legacy families who were getting multi-kid discounts refused them so that need based kids could receive bigger scholarships. Someone else donated computers as they found having a computer at home was a big thing--so the school offered one for free. Apathetic alumni volunteered as mentors and role models to these first generation kids. They instituted an assimilation program that if kids and parents completed, they would get a $1000 tuition grant. They also discovered odd things like Hispanic parents were afraid of the financial aid forms as "the government could trace" them...which led to a positive for the Catholic school as this wasn't a government institution. Word of mouth spread.
Ten years later. The school is flourishing. Instead of 100% white, it is 27% minority and growing. 76% get financial aid. They just built a new multi-million Heath Science center and expanded their AP offerings. And heaven forbid, 100% of their kids go on to college. Such elitism.
Look, I'm not saying you're wrong that Marquette shouldn't look at doing more to make it accessible to people who appreciate its mission. But it still has to be paid for. And the costs are much higher than in high school.
That being said, it is likely a more realistic goal than trying to be the next Georgetown.
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MSU's applications grew from 2018 to 2019 because the school for the first time accepted applications through a system that allows students to apply to multiple schools at the same time.
Applications dropped significantly from 2017 to 2018, as ESPN accurately reported, citing data provided by MSU.
And again, someone blames "the media" for being unable to read and/or accurately describe the stories he links here.
LOL.
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This is a good point. The President is being proactive about a genuine crisis unfolding.
Personally, I have a few MU degrees, STH, decent income, and even I can't justify the overwhelming expense for a MU undergrad degree for my own kids.
Interesting a president addressing a well recognized decline in birth rates that will decrease the future pool of students should be on the hot seat for taking proactive corrective steps? Sounds like good management.
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This is a really interesting and I;m by no means an expert on any of this.
But I do have a question specific to Dr. B's exhortation that MU return to its roots of serving first-generation and less privileged students. (Maybe "return to its roots" isn't the correct phrase, as I'm not sure they really left it. How about "refocus?")
Anyhow, I'm wondering whether by doing, Marquette would be actively shrinking its application pool rather than expanding it. We already know that there will be fewer college-age students out there due to declining birth rates. We also know that as more and more people out there attain college degrees (34 percent of the population today, compared to 22 percent in 1970 and 28 percent in 1990), there will be fewer first-generation students out there.
So, is focusing on a shrinking subset of a shrinking population a sensible decision?
I don't know the answer, and perhaps I'm reading the situation all wrong, but it's what comes to mind when we talk about this.
Another thought ... Disco suggests MU needs to find more students who can pay full price (like at ND), which would then allow more financial flexibility to recruit less privileged students. That sounds great, but I';m not sure MU has the academic reputation/standing to do that. Parents are willing to pay full boat at Notre Dame because it's Notre Dame. But I'm not sure nearly as many parents will pay full boat for Marquette when, say, a Loyola, Chicago or Miami of Ohio is offering $15-20K in financial assistance.
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Yep.
Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.
At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.
Brother Gooooo, I have mixed emotions about your posts.
On the positive, you did what was right for your daughters, as I did with my children. I'm happy for the two of them and the UofM is a great school. Mizzou's J program has been good forever.
But, I think Marquette's challenge is to "sell it." If you charge more and your competition has public subsidies, what do you offer that the large state schools don't. From a large urban location (which is appealing to some, not to others), a Catholic focus and lots of cultural opportunities in your front yard, to a great education, smaller class sizes and alumni who have made a difference in the world, Marquette has to tell the story.
Oh, and there's that basketball team!
As an alum and one who really believed in Marquette (and what it did for me), I promised my children that if either could do Marquette work, wanted to go there and applied, I'd find a way to make it happen. Period. And I meant it! Neither went to Marquette because they needed and wanted things Marquette didn't offer. But the place is really special and I'll say it again, you have to sell it.
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What are the current standards for admission at Marquette? I know the admission standards have gotten more stringent since I enrolled in '01, but are they really that much higher? I would think the barrier for even a decent high school student is cost, not academics.
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Hard to believe Izzo still has a job...but that is the world of the NCAA. I wouldn’t call him a role model, friend or mentor.
If you ever listen to Izzo, he sounds like a 'dumb jock' or a 1970's high school gym teacher. The man can coach basketball, no doubt, but I don't think he could ever be mistaken for an intelligent man. MSU values basketball over ethics and women's safety, that is why he still employed.
I was blessed to have a daughter who could attend any school she wanted except maybe the top 20 schools but I told her I would not pay for either Baylor or MSU (MSU was never a consideration due to their academics). I could not justify knowingly putting my daughter at risk at those two institutions.
Sexual assaults can happen at any school but Baylor's and MSU's handling of them is disgusting and criminal.
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Is there a reason this thread isn't in Superbar? In any case, it's somewhat concerning and sad to see the university have to resort to these measures and show long time, presumably dedicated faculty and employees the door, but I take comfort that MU fared quite well in the WSJ College rankings that were released the other day and believe they are reasonably well positioned moving forward. WSJ unfortunately is behind a subscription wall but scoopers who are Journal subscribers can access them.
This is a really important thread and it seems to me MU is going through somewhat of an identity crisis. We all care a great deal about our mutual alma-mater and having read through this carefully, there isn't a single post I disagree with. Folks on both sides of the future direction of the university make valid points. I've been posting on this topic for years so here's my take as a very proud MU alum but also as a native east coaster who headed home after graduation and has historically had a POV that's very different than the majority of scoopers:
MU must remain true to it's Jesuit mission and find ways to make higher education more accessible to low income and first generation students, but it seems to me they would be able to provide more meaningful assistance to those qualified underprivileged students who truly need it if they had a higher percentage of full pay or close to full pay families. Both ND, where my younger brother attended, and BC, (run by DiUlio's #2 at MU from the 90's for last 23 years) are notoriously stingy with aid and a have a lot of students from families that can afford to pay full tuition. It may not be high on a percentage basis, but my guess is even if only 15% of their students get no aid whatsoever, that's probably an extraordinarily high percentage compared to most other schools. Although ND and BC are notoriously stingy with aid for chattering upper middle class families, they're very generous with aid for their students who really need it. Granted having a 13B and 3B endowment respectively helps tremendously, and MU obviously can't compete with that, but then why has MU doubled down and focused recruiting relentlessly on students from families who they know can't afford virtually any tuition whatsoever before they've even identified who they are?
Dr. Blackheart's post in particular about the high school's turnaround was very intriguing but given the cost differential between catholic/private secondary/high school vs college I'm not sure the same approach can be replicated for MU. What MU could do is make an effort to recruit more at public high schools in well to do zip codes on the coasts and that could have a significant effect. The amount of families on the east coast who forgo their excellent state flagships in favor of paying out of state tuition at places like UW Madison, Miami of Ohio, the University of South Carolina, Clemson, UT Austin, UCLA, etc, is absolutely staggering. MU could easily compete with some of these schools if they wanted to, they just don't make an effort and it's absolutely mind boggling. It seems to me if MU got even a small number of these types of students it would have a noticeable (if not meaningful) impact on their financial position and enable them to remain true to their mission and provide even more help to those students who truly need it.
Thoughts?
The one demographic of college bound students that is rising is the Latino/Hispanic community. Again, largely a catholic population. So, it makes sense for MU to target this group. However, first generation and lower income groups make up a big segment of this targeted pool. Is this the right strategy? The financial aid packages will need to reflect MU's commitment.
ND, Georgetown, and BC are significantly more select with their applicant pool. All the other catholic schools line up quite a ways behind them. As stated before, Marquette is "middle of the road" and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. Apparently, Dr. Lovell realizes and is being proactive to position MU for the future.
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....and as more states begin to offer free college tuition at state schools the challenge for small private/religious schools will become even harder. Will they even be able to compete?
https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship
It doesn't seem fair.
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The same people that do now. One can be both privileged and part of a minority. But please, do bring your victimhood to every thread.
How do you know that?
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MSU's applications grew from 2018 to 2019 because the school for the first time accepted applications through a system that allows students to apply to multiple schools at the same time.
Applications dropped significantly from 2017 to 2018, as ESPN accurately reported, citing data provided by MSU.
And again, someone blames "the media" for being unable to read and/or accurately describe the stories he links here.
Able to read just fine, the point was some Media didn’t give the full picture, which is often the case. They cherry pick, they used to claim BS like column inches limited what they could say. All too often only a portion of the story is told, as I and others have illustrated on numerous occasions.
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MSU's applications grew from 2018 to 2019 because the school for the first time accepted applications through a system that allows students to apply to multiple schools at the same time.
Applications dropped significantly from 2017 to 2018, as ESPN accurately reported, citing data provided by MSU.
And again, someone blames "the media" for being unable to read and/or accurately describe the stories he links here.
He just isn't a very smart guy. Doesn't understand that correlation doesn't equal causation.
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You guys realize this was a whopping 2.5% reduction, right? And while it's true that some of the modeling projections made a few years back were too optimistic, Marquette continues to believe (and I agree with) the notion that as a university you can't 'cost contain' yourself to success, especially in key academic programs. That said, there is no doubt that the recent tuition increases aren't sustainable and folks like the 3rd assistant to the Hope and Spirituality Chair aren't necessary. My view has always been that universities have gone crazy with administration positions. Some of the reorganization described seems to recognize that. It's also interesting to note that Marquette's discounting had lagged its main competition pretty significantly over the last decade plus primarily because of endowment limitations. But it's a shrinking candidate pool out there and that reality needs to be managed. Anyway, that's my take.
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You guys realize this was a whopping 2.5% reduction, right? And while it's true that some of the modeling projections made a few years back were too optimistic, Marquette continues to believe (and I agree with) the notion that as a university you can't 'cost contain' yourself to success, especially in key academic programs. That said, there is no doubt that the recent tuition increases aren't sustainable and folks like the 3rd assistant to the Hope and Spirituality Chair aren't necessary. My view has always been that universities have gone crazy with administration positions. Some of the reorganization described seems to recognize that. It's also interesting to note that Marquette's discounting had lagged its main competition pretty significantly over the last decade plus primarily because of endowment limitations. But it's a shrinking candidate pool out there and that reality needs to be managed. Anyway, that's my take.
Good take.
I am more concerned at the moment with the drop in endowment YOY. I assume due to the absorption of these capital costs?
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Good take.
I am more concerned at the moment with the drop in endowment YOY. I assume due to the absorption of these capital costs?
What’s your endowment source? This says it went up 7.9% most recently reported. Maybe you have FY 2019, but from July to July that was a rocky ride for the market.
https://www.marquette.edu/endowment/endowment-performance.shtml
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Know matta how dis 2.5% reduction is spun, Pa, it ain't a good thin', hey?
Really? Healthy businesses do it all the time. You figure out what might have been a decent idea that didn't work and cut it. Way better then letting it be a permanent drag.
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Another thought ... Disco suggests MU needs to find more students who can pay full price (like at ND), which would then allow more financial flexibility to recruit less privileged students. That sounds great, but I';m not sure MU has the academic reputation/standing to do that. Parents are willing to pay full boat at Notre Dame because it's Notre Dame. But I'm not sure nearly as many parents will pay full boat for Marquette when, say, a Loyola, Chicago or Miami of Ohio is offering $15-20K in financial assistance.
I couldn’t agree with you more Pakuni! That’s why I’ve been so obsessed and disappointed in Marquette’s ridiculously high 89% acceptance rate which is a turn off to these people I’m not trying to say Marquette should go in the direction of an elite school. It isn’t one and it never will be and I fully acknowledge that the notion that Marquette can somehow become another Notre Dame Georgetown or Boston College in 10 yrs is ludicrous. They are middle of the road and that’s fine, but....... they could be a little higher middle of the road if they wanted to and a US news ranking in the low 70s instead of 90 is achievable and a realistic goal. If the acceptance rate were let’s say 68% instead of 89% that would have a huge impact on student / parent perception. Is it snobbery? Definitely but I’m just trying to provide the perspective of people in my neck of the woods. It’s not like bringing the acceptance rate down to 68% would make Marquette anything close to an elite institution, but I feel pretty strongly that it could make a difference between a potential student choosing to matriculate there vs not. Parents crunch the numbers big-time and do take this stuff into consideration . Miami of Ohio has the same national ranking as Marquette as of the US news data that will be published on Monday it’s already up online The number of people from the East Coast that go there and happily pay out of state tuition is crazy and something that I’m guessing probably just doesn’t really happen in the mid western United States because their state flag ships are just frankly more desirable than northeastern ones. Not due to academic snobbery but school culture. The High school in my town in southwestern Connecticut had 24 students apply to Miami of Ohio last year. It was the most popular college for students to apply to last year but has always been popular with great word-of-mouth. Did I mention I live in Connecticut? It doesn’t make any practical sense but it is nevertheless true. The same high school maybe gets one person to apply to Marquette every three years. Sad.
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What’s your endowment source? This says it went up 7.9% most recently reported. Maybe you have FY 2019, but from July to July that was a rocky ride for the market.
https://www.marquette.edu/endowment/endowment-performance.shtml
Read it a few days ago, but it wasn’t sourced from my recollection....will try to find....I hope you are right because when I read it I was surprised.
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Really? Healthy businesses do it all the time. You figure out what might have been a decent idea that didn't work and cut it. Way better then letting it be a permanent drag.
True. Innovation risks often leads to investment not panning out.
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This is a really interesting and I;m by no means an expert on any of this.
But I do have a question specific to Dr. B's exhortation that MU return to its roots of serving first-generation and less privileged students. (Maybe "return to its roots" isn't the correct phrase, as I'm not sure they really left it. How about "refocus?")
Anyhow, I'm wondering whether by doing, Marquette would be actively shrinking its application pool rather than expanding it. We already know that there will be fewer college-age students out there due to declining birth rates. We also know that as more and more people out there attain college degrees (34 percent of the population today, compared to 22 percent in 1970 and 28 percent in 1990), there will be fewer first-generation students out there.
So, is focusing on a shrinking subset of a shrinking population a sensible decision?
I don't know the answer, and perhaps I'm reading the situation all wrong, but it's what comes to mind when we talk about this.
Another thought ... Disco suggests MU needs to find more students who can pay full price (like at ND), which would then allow more financial flexibility to recruit less privileged students. That sounds great, but I';m not sure MU has the academic reputation/standing to do that. Parents are willing to pay full boat at Notre Dame because it's Notre Dame. But I'm not sure nearly as many parents will pay full boat for Marquette when, say, a Loyola, Chicago or Miami of Ohio is offering $15-20K in financial assistance.
Everybody and their uncle wants full pay students. Its a great strategy but not an easy one.
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If we look at it from a business perspective (I will put my institutional bias sentiment aside), how does MU approach this? First, all schools will have a supply issue as enrollments (and revenues) will drop most everywhere, heating up competition, leaving assets underutilized.
How to solve:
>>Go more elite and have a lot less students, but at full revenue. This will involve cutting operating costs by at least 25% on these underutilized assets and resources. Merge with smaller Catholic and private schools for operational efficiencies.
>>Go less elite, lower admissions standards, attract more first generation families which will dominate, let in a lot more international students, develop a much stronger business certification and incubator programs, bundle under and post grad degrees, Be the Difference.
Let’s get real, though. ND, Nova, Georgetown, BC will all have the same problem. Those MU kids who were waitlisted at those schools now can attend there. And that is where they will be going as MU isn’t as elite enough nor does it have the money to get there quickly. In fact, mathematically, as MU will now lose these kids, MU’s scores will go down organically as these academically elite kids will have a lot more attractive options.
That leaves option 2. Ideas are welcome. Just know demographically, that by 2029, MU will be over 50% what is termed minority today in its composition. That is the math Lovell sees.
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DiscoHippie, please check your inbox
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If we look at it from a business perspective (I will put my institutional bias sentiment aside), how does MU approach this? First, all schools will have a supply issue as enrollments (and revenues) will drop most everywhere, heating up competition, leaving assets underutilized.
How to solve:
>>Go more elite and have a lot less students, but at full revenue. This will involve cutting operating costs by at least 25% on these underutilized assets and resources. Merge with smaller Catholic and private schools for operational efficiencies.
>>Go less elite, lower admissions standards, attract more first generation families which will dominate, let in a lot more international students, develop a much stronger business certification and incubator programs, bundle under and post grad degrees, Be the Difference.
Let’s get real, though. ND, Nova, Georgetown, BC will all have the same problem. Those MU kids who were waitlisted at those schools now can attend there. And that is where they will be going as MU isn’t as elite enough nor does it have the money to get there quickly. In fact, mathematically, as MU will now lose these kids, MU’s scores will go down organically as these academically elite kids will have a lot more attractive options.
That leaves option 2. Ideas are welcome. Just know demographically, that by 2029, MU will be over 50% what is termed minority today in its composition. That is the math Lovell sees.
By 2029....i’ll take that wager if one is offered.
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What’s your endowment source? This says it went up 7.9% most recently reported. Maybe you have FY 2019, but from July to July that was a rocky ride for the market.
https://www.marquette.edu/endowment/endowment-performance.shtml
My fault...found it and it was 2016 when it went down from year prior. I made error in date.
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By 2029....i’ll take that wager if one is offered.
You are on. Easy money. You can contribute to my Alzheimer’s fund by then.
You do know it is now 27% at MU in 2019, right?
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My fault...found it and it was 2016 when it went down from year prior. I made error in date.
Scotty left the cupboard bare.
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You are on. Easy money. You can contribute to my Alzheimer’s fund by then.
You do know it is now 27% at MU in 2019, right?
Yes, aware the incoming class is 27%. Now to be clear, you are saying by 2029 the incoming class will be more than 50% non Caucasian? You are not saying the entire enrollment. Either way I take the bet, but the latter is even harder for you to overcome so I wanted to make sure we are in agreement.
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Scotty left the cupboard bare.
I would hope the president of the school isn’t directing the investment allocation of the endowment on his own.
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When you get on an airline the flight attendants say “… Please put your own oxygen mask on first and then help others…” I think this is very appropriate to MU.
So in response to the opening post, no I am not concerned about MU trimming some fat. In fact, better to do it now and get accustomed to the new level of operational efficiencies.
However, what I am concerned about is the continued flaws in overall marketing strategy and admission strategy the school continues to pursue.
We have had this discussion many times over in The Superbar. My position is this:
1. MU has an outstanding educational deliverable
2. MU does not market itself at the same level as what it is delivering. We keep hearing that MU can never be Georgetown, ND, BC etc. I believe that is true on a certain level due to history and other factors. But no reason to not be at the Villanova level and make that the goal. MU is a better product than Villanova, the marketing and positioning is not there though.
3. MU needs to be pursing excellence as an institutional goal. Don’t dumb down curriculum by reducing Theology and Philosophy. Always strive to be the best. Parents want to send their kids to the best possible school they can. Continued focus on Health Sciences, Engineering and Business curriculum and making them best they can possibly be.
4. Pay attention to the core customer which is the top 20 percent student from affluent suburbs. Those are the people who love MU and appreciate the school. They come back year after year. Make it a school they want to keep pursuing. The MU competition needs to be seen as the lower half of Big Ten Schools, with MU Offering more personalized service and same or better education.
5. Do not pursue the diversity strategy for diversity sake, because there are other more highly schools who can cherry pick the best students from the diverse pool. MU does not need to be an alternative to the Chicago States of the word. An open and embracing stature is all that is needed, not a reduction in standards.
6. The open admissions policy is flawed. Make a MU acceptance worth something in the eye of the offered. Spend admissions resources more thoughtfully by hiring more officers, who take personal interest in kids and also going to public high schools in the historic strength areas.
7. If MU pursues 6 and 7 above, the minority students that all schools are seeking, will eventually find the value in MU and naturally matriculate. Winners seek to be with winners.
8. Positioning the school as a winner creates a virtuous circle of better students, bigger endowment and better reputation.
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Yes, aware the incoming class is 27%. Now to be clear, you are saying by 2029 the incoming class will be more than 50% non Caucasian? You are not saying the entire enrollment. Either way I take the bet, but the latter is even harder for you to overcome so I wanted to make sure we are in agreement.
I said minority as defined/classified by the government today. For example, there are many “Caucasian” minorities. I go total under graduate enrollment. That’s a reasonable 2.3% composition point change per year supported by the demographic projections. As an aside, there are private colleges in the US who are already there today.
Of course, if MU stays on the Option 1 elite track (or delays the inevitable), you win hands down. MU may be out of business, though.
Here is to the “2030 Back 100 Acre Steer & Beer Summit” in Bozeman!
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As stated before, Marquette is "middle of the road" and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. Apparently, Dr. Lovell realizes and is being proactive to position MU for the future.
If by "middle of the road" you mean top 5% in the country.
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Besides Berkeley, UCLA, NYU, etc., then there is private Stanford. They are there today and thrive.
How about smaller private schools: St. Leo's, St. Peter's, SJU, Santa Clara, San Francisco, St. Mary's, University of the Pacific. All successes. All adapted. Some have a composition of less than 30% White. Why did they succeed? Their demographics changed a long time ago and so did they. Lots to be learned there...so the future isn't so scary.
The biases need to be put to the side.
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Besides Berkeley, UCLA, NYU, etc., then there is private Stanford. They are there today and thrive.
How about smaller private schools: St. Leo's, St. Peter's, SJU, Santa Clara, San Francisco, St. Mary's, University of the Pacific. All successes. All adapted. Some have a composition of less than 30% White. Why did they succeed? Their demographics changed a long time ago and so did they. Lots to be learned there...so the future isn't so scary.
The biases need to be put to the side.
Many of those schools are here in Calif, and I am not sure I would qualify them a success. What is your criteria? Keep in mind the ability for Calif residents to attend the UC system isn’t what it used to be with the schools bringing in so many out of state and intl. Very difficult to gain acceptance. Cal State system is a hodge podge of very good to mediocre schools and everything in between. In some ways the Calif schools mentioned above have benefited from the two California public systems as alternatives in a state that is not really like any other (both in good and bad ways). I’d be curious why you call some of them successful....what criteria?
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Everybody and their uncle wants full pay students. Its a great strategy but not an easy one.
One way colleges are achieving that strategy is recruiting international students, particularly from Asia. My buddy recruits for a private college and makes multiple trips to China, Hong Kong, South Korea India, and Japan yearly and just recently hit up Indonesia to recruit. These kids are full or nearly full pay, as international students don’t get the same scholarships as domestic kids and have to show the financial resources to get a visa. Certainly a place MU could up their game.
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Many of those schools are here in Calif, and I am not sure I would qualify them a success. What is your criteria? Keep in mind the ability for Calif residents to attend the UC system isn’t what it used to be with the schools bringing in so many out of state and intl. Very difficult to gain acceptance. Cal State system is a hodge podge of very good to mediocre schools and everything in between. In some ways the Calif schools mentioned above have benefited from the two California public systems as alternatives in a state that is not really like any other (both in good and bad ways). I’d be curious why you call some of them successful....what criteria?
Why don't you tell me which ones you don't qualify as successes? Much less work
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Why don't you tell me which ones you don't qualify as successes? Much less work
Well you said they were successful, I’m curious why. My wife is youngest of nine, one sister went to St. Mary’s, one brother to Santa Clara...the others to a whole host of schools in the state. Their complaints about their alma maters are often similar to our complaints, so I am just curious what made you say that.
Someone from the outside looking at MU might say the campus is building up, usually a sign of progress and investment. Class sizes are holding steady. Academics holding steady. Athletics have had national impacts in a number of sports. MU doing great.
What makes you say those schools are a success?
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I said minority as defined/classified by the government today. For example, there are many “Caucasian” minorities. I go total under graduate enrollment. That’s a reasonable 2.3% composition point change per year supported by the demographic projections. As an aside, there are private colleges in the US who are already there today.
Of course, if MU stays on the Option 1 elite track (or delays the inevitable), you win hands down. MU may be out of business, though.
Here is to the “2030 Back 100 Acre Steer & Beer Summit” in Bozeman!
Total undergraduate enrollment will be minority (by today’s gov’t definition) at MU by 2029? What are the terms? I’m in...come to Boise or Bozeman, either way.
I have one graph that is showing MU current undergrad enrollment is 70.9% white....I do not see in ten years the numbers working down to 49.9% white.
https://images.app.goo.gl/MVNuQsKXMZtnmF5J8
Dept of education says MU is 72% white...even higher.
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Well you said they were successful, I’m curious why. My wife is youngest of nine, one sister went to St. Mary’s, one brother to Santa Clara...the others to a whole host of schools in the state. Their complaints about their alma maters are often similar to our complaints, so I am just curious what made you say that.
Someone from the outside looking at MU might say the campus is building up, usually a sign of progress and investment. Class sizes are holding steady. Academics holding steady. Athletics have had national impacts in a number of sports. MU doing great.
What makes you say those schools are a success?
Hmmm....those wouldn't be the ones I would have thought you'd pick. Will respond tomorrow.
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Herman
I agree. I’ve stated in the past that touchpoints matter to some kids and parents. Kids don’t pick a school based on a college fair appearance or a brochure, but it doesn’t hurt either. In fact, for some it may peak their interest to learn more. A picture, especially to kids these days, is worth a lot.
Some of the mail that arrived today for my daughter. Have to tell you, the 40 page DePaul booklet was the big winner. Syracuse sent something earlier this week along with USC that also were extremely impressive. I have to think $7 to $10 in cost which is expensive in the direct mail game. Yeah yeah, I get it...only a pretty brochure....but I tell you it was so well done compared to the rest that it stood out. For some people that may make a difference to take the next step, apply and who knows...attend if it works out. I wish MU would be more visible in certain areas....comes down to money and return. Hopefully they are A B testing the hell out of their approaches and continuing to see what works and doesn’t....traditional, digital, in person, etc. Have to our hustle.
(http://a65.tinypic.com/bgv140.jpg)
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Herman
I agree. I’ve stated in the past that touchpoints matter to some kids and parents. Kids don’t pick a school based on a college fair appearance or a brochure, but it doesn’t hurt either. In fact, for some it may peak their interest to learn more. A picture, especially to kids these days, is worth a lot.
Some of the mail that arrived today for my daughter. Have to tell you, the 40 page DePaul booklet was the big winner. Syracuse sent something earlier this week along with USC that also were extremely impressive. I have to think $7 to $10 in cost which is expensive in the direct mail game. Yeah yeah, I get it...only a pretty brochure....but I tell you it was so well done compared to the rest that it stood out. For some people that may make a difference to take the next step, apply and who knows...attend if it works out. I wish MU would be more visible in certain areas....comes down to money and return. Hopefully they are A B testing the hell out of their approaches and continuing to see what works and doesn’t....traditional, digital, in person, etc. Have to our hustle.
(http://a65.tinypic.com/bgv140.jpg)
Boo!
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Boo!
Good to have options. MU needs to fight hard to stand out. Kids are a lot different today then they were even 10 years ago due to tech.
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One way colleges are achieving that strategy is recruiting international students, particularly from Asia. My buddy recruits for a private college and makes multiple trips to China, Hong Kong, South Korea India, and Japan yearly and just recently hit up Indonesia to recruit. These kids are full or nearly full pay, as international students don’t get the same scholarships as domestic kids and have to show the financial resources to get a visa. Certainly a place MU could up their game.
In addition to Asia, Middle Eastern students are also highly targeted. Willing and able to pay full freight.
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What makes you think Marquette doesn't send out mailings?
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What makes you think Marquette doesn't send out mailings?
They do, example in the photo. I think they can step up what they send out, but hopefully their AB testing with that tactic is proving out the ROI of that approach. College fairs I was really disappointed in their lack of presence.
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They contract with Ruffalo Noel Levitz to handle the strategic direction of their admissions marketing. Its one of a handful of national level firms that do this.
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They contract with Ruffalo Noel Levitz to handle the strategic direction of their admissions marketing. Its one of a handful of national level firms that do this.
Makes sense. Unfortunately they seem to look a lot like the others, whereas some are breaking through the clutter.
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The other question is what do they contract with them to do? Demographic breakdown? Marketing development? Scholarship levels? Some schools only contract with certain segments.
If what was said by Tiny Tim is correct, and they got numbers in the door but fell short of revenue, that means their entire scholarship program was misallocated. Too large a discount with some segments and not competitive enough in others.
From a recruiting standpoint there may not need to be a huge change in their overall direction. They may need to simply change up some of their tactics. But I really don't know enough to know.
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I trust MU is also testing with some other agencies as any good marketing org should do to keep the current one hungry. Whether that is RNL’s competitors like Think Global or Frontline, or someone else. RNL is the largest in the space which gives financial efficiencies, but can also lead to templtized, cookie cutter approach on the output to achieve those efficiencies.
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Sometimes schools with contract with multiple firms to handle different aspects of recruiting for the exact reason you mention. I don't know if MU does that.
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One way colleges are achieving that strategy is recruiting international students, particularly from Asia. My buddy recruits for a private college and makes multiple trips to China, Hong Kong, South Korea India, and Japan yearly and just recently hit up Indonesia to recruit. These kids are full or nearly full pay, as international students don’t get the same scholarships as domestic kids and have to show the financial resources to get a visa. Certainly a place MU could up their game.
This is exactly what University of Illinois - Champaign is doing to close their budget gap. The most recent stats I could find shows they have more international students - about 20% - than they have out-of-state students. The majority are from Asia, and most of those are the children of wealthy Chinese.
Not that I am recommending that strategy for Marquette.
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This is exactly what University of Illinois - Champaign is doing to close their budget gap. The most recent stats I could find shows they have more international students - about 20% - than they have out-of-state students. The majority are from Asia, and most of those are the children of wealthy Chinese.
Not that I am recommending that strategy for Marquette.
My brother talked about that happening at his at his school. Wealthy Chinese princelings driving luxury sports cars (Lambos, Ferraris) and buying multiple condos for their four years and then at the end of their four years leaving everything behind when they returned to China.
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This is exactly what University of Illinois - Champaign is doing to close their budget gap. The most recent stats I could find shows they have more international students - about 20% - than they have out-of-state students. The majority are from Asia, and most of those are the children of wealthy Chinese.
Not that I am recommending that strategy for Marquette.
Many smaller private schools are doing this too like St. Leo’s, Beloit College, Pacific, etc. I don’t know if all are that high in terms of composition...and the international pool is usually closer to full price tuition.
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My brother talked about that happening at his at his school. Wealthy Chinese princelings driving luxury sports cars (Lambos, Ferraris) and buying multiple condos for their four years and then at the end of their four years leaving everything behind when they returned to China.
UC schools have been inundated by Chinese students the last decade, a lot of money flowing in....caused a bit of a revolt by some Californians because so many slots are being taken up by non-Californians....but that’s where the UC system gets the most cash.
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I have no problems at all with MU trimming a little fat. It might also make those who remain work a little harder to make sure they're not candidates for the next round. Also, for all of those which were non-tenured teaching positions, it enables those who remain to pick up more classes and make more money themselves thereby improving efficiency.
As for positioning, I was drawn to MU many years ago because they drew for me a straight line through University to getting a good job. As I recently went through the selection process with my eldest son, I have to say that the ONLY universities that were on his list that did this were DePaul, Santa Clara and Houston. The remainder were so focused on turning 4 years into 5 (you don't have to have a major in your first year, undecided is OK and all of that faff) that they were entirely unappealing. MU was also on the border of this "revenue increasing" strategy - encouraging undecided kids to remain undecided so they waste a year and end up staying for 5. As a parent who's paying for it, I found this to be bad business from ALL the universities that have it as part of their strategy.
MU as a tuition dependent university needs more attendees, not less, so it needs to contain costs AND have attractive programs. The biggest focus - and area for improvement - needs to be connections to industry and the path to a good job.
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I have to say that the ONLY universities that were on his list that did this were DePaul, Santa Clara and Houston. The remainder were so focused on turning 4 years into 5 (you don't have to have a major in your first year, undecided is OK and all of that faff) that they were entirely unappealing. MU was also on the border of this "revenue increasing" strategy - encouraging undecided kids to remain undecided so they waste a year and end up staying for 5. As a parent who's paying for it, I found this to be bad business from ALL the universities that have it as part of their strategy.
Is it now normal for kids to start taking major classes as freshmen? My recollection of freshman year was I took core and required classes (Phil, Math, Science, English 001, Spanish, Dr. Naylor’s Western Civ) and no major classes until sophomore year, and I made it out in 4 years easily.
One thing I appreciated about MU is that classes that were prerequisites for other classes were offered every semester. Friends at public schools has their time extended because such classes were not always offered.
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I'm in the higher education field and it's not a great sign but Marquette should be fine for the next while at least. We all know there's a higher education bubble and when it pops there is going to be some carnage. Mostly though it should fall on small tuition-dependent, private liberal arts colleges with low endowments (places like Ripon College) and directional state schools (places like UW-Superior).
The most concerning stat I see for Marquette is that it's acceptance rate is really high - like 85%. This is noticeably higher than peer institutions (De Paul, 70%, SLU 65%, Butler 73%, Xavier 69%, Gonzaga 67%) and WAY higher than "aspirational" peers (Villanova 29%, Notre Dame 19%, Georgetown 17%, Boston College 31%, Duke 11%). Basically it means Marquette really struggles to fill its classes and is very sensitive to any downturn in student demand. I.e. it's not like there is a big pool of students that would come if only MU would lower standards and let them in. As 53% of Marquette's operating revenue comes from student fees a big fall in numbers has a decent hit on keeping the lights on.
That said, the good news for Marquette is that its endowment is relatively strong (670m, ~60k per student) and it isn't super indebted (~230m - so debt/endowment ratio ~34%) and both of those figures are trending in good directions. Also, as some of small liberal arts schools fold up shop supply will decrease and Marquette will pick up some of those applicants. All in all I wouldn't worry about Marquette facing serious problems in the near future but the lack of cushion with student demand is a bit concerning.
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DiscoHippie and 1SE, I completely agree w/you. The only defense MU admissions could possibly have for that depressingly high admissions % is that they're not attracting as large of a pool of applicants as they used to (maybe due to the hoops team's mediocrity not giving us much national exposure). My son grew up loving MU hoops, but last year when applying to schools, he took one look at the acceptance rate and asked "Dad, what's up w/that?" It was a huge red flag. When he dug deeper on Naviance.com he saw that kids from his high school were being accepted to MU with GPAs that hovered around 3.0 and ACTs in the low 20s. He subsequently applied to and was accepted to Madison. Never thought I'd admit this, but I'm glad he's at UW. He'll get a better education at a fraction of the cost (we're WI residents) of attending MU.
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The most concerning stat I see for Marquette is that it's acceptance rate is really high - like 85%. This is noticeably higher than peer institutions (De Paul, 70%, SLU 65%, Butler 73%, Xavier 69%, Gonzaga 67%) and WAY higher than "aspirational" peers (Villanova 29%, Notre Dame 19%, Georgetown 17%, Boston College 31%, Duke 11%). Basically it means Marquette really struggles to fill its classes and is very sensitive to any downturn in student demand.
It is also the sign of more focused recruitment efforts. Perhaps too focused. But acceptance rate is largely meaningless as a measure of quality.
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I have no problems at all with MU trimming a little fat. It might also make those who remain work a little harder to make sure they're not candidates for the next round. Also, for all of those which were non-tenured teaching positions, it enables those who remain to pick up more classes and make more money themselves thereby improving efficiency.
As for positioning, I was drawn to MU many years ago because they drew for me a straight line through University to getting a good job. As I recently went through the selection process with my eldest son, I have to say that the ONLY universities that were on his list that did this were DePaul, Santa Clara and Houston. The remainder were so focused on turning 4 years into 5 (you don't have to have a major in your first year, undecided is OK and all of that faff) that they were entirely unappealing. MU was also on the border of this "revenue increasing" strategy - encouraging undecided kids to remain undecided so they waste a year and end up staying for 5. As a parent who's paying for it, I found this to be bad business from ALL the universities that have it as part of their strategy.
MU as a tuition dependent university needs more attendees, not less, so it needs to contain costs AND have attractive programs. The biggest focus - and area for improvement - needs to be connections to industry and the path to a good job.
I have worked in higher education for nearly three decades, at multiple public and private institutions, and I have never been part of a strategic conversation where we are trying to tell students to be at the school for more than four years. (Unless their major calls for it.) I really doubt that is happening at MU.
The reason why MU is telling students this is because it is actually harder to get out in four years if they have to switch majors than it is if they are undecided.
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Is it now normal for kids to start taking major classes as freshmen? My recollection of freshman year was I took core and required classes (Phil, Math, Science, English 001, Spanish, Dr. Naylor’s Western Civ) and no major classes until sophomore year, and I made it out in 4 years easily.
I took major classes in my freshman year back in 1986. Anyway yes schools want students exposed to their major early because it usually helps with retention. And if they switch, those classes would usually fill some sort of requirement anyway.
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...The remainder were so focused on turning 4 years into 5 (you don't have to have a major in your first year, undecided is OK and all of that faff) that they were entirely unappealing. MU was also on the border of this "revenue increasing" strategy - encouraging undecided kids to remain undecided so they waste a year and end up staying for 5. As a parent who's paying for it, I found this to be bad business from ALL the universities that have it as part of their strategy.
It wasn't available for my daughter due to her field of study, but Purdue is the only school that I've seen actively marketing "Degree in 3" approach. For someone looking to study Liberal Arts, it's not a bad idea. I suspect that some other schools do the same thing, but I haven't come across it.
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It wasn't available for my daughter due to her field of study, but Purdue is the only school that I've seen actively marketing "Degree in 3" approach. For someone looking to study Liberal Arts, it's not a bad idea. I suspect that some other schools do the same thing, but I haven't come across it.
A lot of schools do stuff like this to keep costs down.
https://madisoncollege.edu/uw-madison-transfer
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It is also the sign of more focused recruitment efforts. Perhaps too focused. But acceptance rate is largely meaningless as a measure of quality.
FTR , USNWR has dropped acceptance rate as a criterion and focused more on graduation rates.
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Bring back FFP!!!
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Yep.
Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.
At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.
Sounds exactly like my daughter ($16k/yr schloraship offer) except off to a rival Big East school due to an incredibly more generous scholarship offer.
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Herman
I agree. I’ve stated in the past that touchpoints matter to some kids and parents. Kids don’t pick a school based on a college fair appearance or a brochure, but it doesn’t hurt either. In fact, for some it may peak their interest to learn more. A picture, especially to kids these days, is worth a lot.
Some of the mail that arrived today for my daughter. Have to tell you, the 40 page DePaul booklet was the big winner. Syracuse sent something earlier this week along with USC that also were extremely impressive. I have to think $7 to $10 in cost which is expensive in the direct mail game. Yeah yeah, I get it...only a pretty brochure....but I tell you it was so well done compared to the rest that it stood out. For some people that may make a difference to take the next step, apply and who knows...attend if it works out. I wish MU would be more visible in certain areas....comes down to money and return. Hopefully they are A B testing the hell out of their approaches and continuing to see what works and doesn’t....traditional, digital, in person, etc. Have to our hustle.
(http://a65.tinypic.com/bgv140.jpg)
Both my daughters were deluged by Tulane!
My younger daughter wants to go there even though they don't have Nursing as a major.
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Sounds exactly like my daughter ($16k/yr schloraship offer) except off to a rival Big East school due to an incredibly more generous scholarship offer.
Sadly, this will continue to happen as long as Marquette alums refuse to donate to scholarship endowments for reasons like "They changed our nickname to the Golden Eagles" or "I paid plenty of money to Marquette when I was a student".
Everyone has a right to choose what they do with their money. However, it's pretty disingenuous to complain how Marquette hasn't kept up with other schools, but do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.
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Sadly, this will continue to happen as long as Marquette alums refuse to donate to scholarship endowments for reasons like "They changed our nickname to the Golden Eagles" or "I paid plenty of money to Marquette when I was a student".
Everyone has a right to choose what they do with their money. However, it's pretty disingenuous to complain how Marquette hasn't kept up with other schools, but do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.
It has much more to do with how Marquette structured their scholarship program for the Class of 2019.
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The most concerning stat I see for Marquette is that it's acceptance rate is really high - like 85%. This is noticeably higher than peer institutions (De Paul, 70%, SLU 65%, Butler 73%, Xavier 69%, Gonzaga 67%) and WAY higher than "aspirational" peers (Villanova 29%, Notre Dame 19%, Georgetown 17%, Boston College 31%, Duke 11%). Basically it means Marquette really struggles to fill its classes and is very sensitive to any downturn in student demand. I.e. it's not like there is a big pool of students that would come if only MU would lower standards and let them in. As 53% of Marquette's operating revenue comes from student fees a big fall in numbers has a decent hit on keeping the lights on.
Wouldn't it only mean that if the entirety of that 85% was also choosing to attend Marquette? If there's 2500 in a freshman class and we had an 85% acceptance rate, that doesn't mean there were only 2941 applicants. There could've been 6000 applicants and only half of the approved ones ultimately picked Marquette. There could've been thousands more. They could fill the same 2500 with 4000 or 20000 applications.
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I have worked in higher education for nearly three decades, at multiple public and private institutions, and I have never been part of a strategic conversation where we are trying to tell students to be at the school for more than four years. (Unless their major calls for it.) I really doubt that is happening at MU.
The reason why MU is telling students this is because it is actually harder to get out in four years if they have to switch majors than it is if they are undecided.
It is not. In fact, getting out in 4 years is a major marketing point for Marquette. They let students know that unlike some public institutions where it is common to have stay an extra semester or two because you can't get into your required classes, you can graduate from Marquette in four years. Exception to this would be switching majors relatively late or flunking a bunch of your classes.
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It is not. In fact, getting out in 4 years is a major marketing point for Marquette. They let students know that unlike some public institutions where it is common to have stay an extra semester or two because you can't get into your required classes, you can graduate from Marquette in four years. Exception to this would be switching majors relatively late or flunking a bunch of your classes.
And Marquette does offer some programs, such as the MS in Applied Economics which is normallying a two year program, where you can get both your BS and your MS in five years.
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Sadly, this will continue to happen as long as Marquette alums refuse to donate to scholarship endowments for reasons like "They changed our nickname to the Golden Eagles" or "I paid plenty of money to Marquette when I was a student".
Everyone has a right to choose what they do with their money. However, it's pretty disingenuous to complain how Marquette hasn't kept up with other schools, but do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.
I agree. However, are those excuses just excuses and Marquette's administration should share the blame on how they communicated with alumni? Two aforementioned administrations on top of the church scandal alienated a large swath of alums in that there was no trust or credibility.
My last alumni reunion I wrote a check so that we weren't the only class who didn't hit their giving goal...and it was a embarrassingly modest goal. Many reunions were going on outside of MU...which is why they changed it up.
Frankly, this is why basketball is so critical as it is the one thing that unites us. But, understand, those simple excuses run much deeper for many.
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It is not. In fact, getting out in 4 years is a major marketing point for Marquette. They let students know that unlike some public institutions where it is common to have stay an extra semester or two because you can't get into your required classes, you can graduate from Marquette in four years. Exception to this would be switching majors relatively late or flunking a bunch of your classes.
Your point above reinforces one of my contentions, which is that MU has a number of many strong educational and value deliverables, I just believe they are not being marketed well enough.
One of my prescriptions is reallocation of resources . Invest in multiple Admissions Officers and put them on the road . Meet year after year with top public schools in targeted metro areas. Having MU name on the school visit list. Kids may or may not show up but the key is the meeting with guidance department. Need to have a much larger applicant pool. That is hard work for sure but work worth doing and being committed to.
Educating the guidance department is the way to identify live prospects. Guidance department loves to be able to tell students and their parents how close they are to XYZ University Admissions and that Young Johnny and Susie is a perfect fit for XYZ. Then go heavy on personalized communication to those pre qualified prospects. Not junk mail stuff, actual solid individualized letters etc.Keeping the guidance department in the loop. Everyone wants to feel unique and special, especially the parents.
Over the years, I have advised a number of families on school choices and have found that, if the base receptivity to an urban school is there, MU advantages end up making it a compelling choice. In our area, the schools I see most often as direct competition for MU are Boston University and Fordham. MU gets the win more often than not but it does require a good amount of time to make the case, but that is the same for any school not withing driving distance . That is why visibility and having year after year commitment to recruiting process is so important.
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It's very expensive to maintain a continuous presence Herman, especially through paid employees. MU is working hard to get greater involvement through dedicated volunteers in these efforts. Things have improved significantly since my kids were 'recruited' back almost 10 years ago. Back then it was poor at best. Better now but there's still work to do.
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I have worked in higher education for nearly three decades, at multiple public and private institutions, and I have never been part of a strategic conversation where we are trying to tell students to be at the school for more than four years. (Unless their major calls for it.) I really doubt that is happening at MU.
The reason why MU is telling students this is because it is actually harder to get out in four years if they have to switch majors than it is if they are undecided.
Thank you for this response. I also have never been pitched on the 5 year stuff with my kids. Utah did tell my son that many kids take five years, but that is complicated by Mormon missions.
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Sadly, this will continue to happen as long as Marquette alums refuse to donate to scholarship endowments for reasons like "They changed our nickname to the Golden Eagles" or "I paid plenty of money to Marquette when I was a student".
Everyone has a right to choose what they do with their money. However, it's pretty disingenuous to complain how Marquette hasn't kept up with other schools, but do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.
Should change the name back to Warriors then!! :)
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Should change the name back to Warriors then!! :)
+1,000,000,000
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Wouldn't it only mean that if the entirety of that 85% was also choosing to attend Marquette? If there's 2500 in a freshman class and we had an 85% acceptance rate, that doesn't mean there were only 2941 applicants. There could've been 6000 applicants and only half of the approved ones ultimately picked Marquette. There could've been thousands more. They could fill the same 2500 with 4000 or 20000 applications.
I’m sure the data is out there for Marquette, but typically schools have a rough idea of matriculation rate. Knowing that you know how many offers you have to make in order to fill a targeted class size. The “wait list” is the buffer for year on year variation in matriculation rate.
So if Marquette knows they have a 10% matriculation rate, and they want a class of 2500, they have to make 25000 offers. If they have 50000 applicants that means an acceptance rate of 50%. If they have 32,000 it’s an acceptance rate of 85%. So, as a basic rule, higher acceptance rate means fewer applicants since most schools are targeting a class size.
And yes, it’s not perfect, but I’m sure there’s a pretty strong correlation between acceptance rate and school ranking
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I’m sure the data is out there for Marquette, but typically schools have a rough idea of matriculation rate. Knowing that you know how many offers you have to make in order to fill a targeted class size. The “wait list” is the buffer for year on year variation in matriculation rate.
So if Marquette knows they have a 10% matriculation rate, and they want a class of 2500, they have to make 25000 offers. If they have 50000 applicants that means an acceptance rate of 50%. If they have 32,000 it’s an acceptance rate of 85%. So, as a basic rule, higher acceptance rate means fewer applicants since most schools are targeting a class size.
And yes, it’s not perfect, but I’m sure there’s a pretty strong correlation between acceptance rate and school ranking
One of the issues hampering schools is that students are applying to more schools than ever. So these rates are getting smaller and harder to predict.
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Should change the name back to Warriors then!! :)
I will donate $2m of Wayne Sanders' money to get the Warrior name back.
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MU moves up to 84 for this years us news rankings. First time we actually moved up under Lovell right?
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MU moves up to 84 for this years us news rankings.
And my son’s school tied MU in its first year in the national ranking.
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MU moves up to 84 for this years us news rankings. First time we actually moved up under Lovell right?
Any ranking that doesn't have UW-Madison #1 is obviously bogus.
I was told half the students had Harvard as their safety school (the other half had Princeton).
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FTR , USNWR has dropped acceptance rate as a criterion and focused more on graduation rates.
Very true and a welcome and appropriate change. Unfortunately, prospective students and their parents just aren't there yet and I suspect it will take many, many years for them to adopt a more pragmatic approach to higher education. Until the U.S. adopts a European style model for higher education which is much more career focused and only takes 3 years for Bachelors, I suspect exclusivity will still matter. It still does in Europe too, but too a lesser degree. Even if the major U.S. institutions decide to replicate the European model down the road, the expensive of Private higher education will still be substantial, just not quite as much.
Seems like MU could benefit tremendously from a Final Four run because short of that, I don't think the situation will improve all that much, and even if we do, that hoops success would need to be sustained over a 3-5 year period to have a meaningful impact instead of just a 1 year bump.
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Sadly, this will continue to happen as long as Marquette alums refuse to donate to scholarship endowments for reasons like "They changed our nickname to the Golden Eagles" or "I paid plenty of money to Marquette when I was a student".
Everyone has a right to choose what they do with their money. However, it's pretty disingenuous to complain how Marquette hasn't kept up with other schools, but do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.
What Lovell has not developed during his tenure in the big whale donations to move the needle.
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DiscoHippie and 1SE, I completely agree w/you. The only defense MU admissions could possibly have for that depressingly high admissions % is that they're not attracting as large of a pool of applicants as they used to (maybe due to the hoops team's mediocrity not giving us much national exposure). My son grew up loving MU hoops, but last year when applying to schools, he took one look at the acceptance rate and asked "Dad, what's up w/that?" It was a huge red flag. When he dug deeper on Naviance.com he saw that kids from his high school were being accepted to MU with GPAs that hovered around 3.0 and ACTs in the low 20s. He subsequently applied to and was accepted to Madison. Never thought I'd admit this, but I'm glad he's at UW. He'll get a better education at a fraction of the cost (we're WI residents) of attending MU.
So much for the notion that this POV is only held by snobs on the coasts. For the record I completely agree with the many of you on this board that this shouldn't matter and has no bearing on quality. Congratulations on being right! It shouldn't matter, but in the real world it does, and will continue to for the forseeable future. As long as MU continues with this approach, they will continue to lose prospective students because of it.
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I will donate $2m of Wayne Sanders' money to get the Warrior name back.
Colossal mistake by MU.....we still get stiffed by donations today....the answer was so easy to appease all but MU found a way to screw the pooch on this one.
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I'm not an expert of higher education budgeting and financing, but this is the 1st time I've ever heard of a university trimming staff based on future/demographic changes. Usually, cuts are reactive to a real-time reduction in enrollment, etc.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/05/marquette-lays-off-24-faculty-and-staff-leaves-50-positions-unfilled/2225523001/
The data that Dr. Lovell cites is really interesting. While not directly basketball-related, this appears to be a foundational issue.
Has NOTHING to do with basketball...
Students are not saying. "I am not or can't go to MU because the basketball team is not in the Final Four... lol
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Colossal mistake by MU.....we still get stiffed by donations today....the answer was so easy to appease all but MU found a way to screw the pooch on this one.
Cue the “Crean Sucks” posts...
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Cue the “Crean Sucks” posts...
DiUlio sucks.....
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So much for the notion that this POV is only held by snobs on the coasts. For the record I completely agree with the many of you on this board that this shouldn't matter and has no bearing on quality. Congratulations on being right! It shouldn't matter, but in the real world it does, and will continue to for the forseeable future. As long as MU continues with this approach, they will continue to lose prospective students because of it.
It doesn't matter.
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What Lovell has not developed during his tenure in the big whale donations to move the needle.
He's had a couple during his tenure. But it's hard to say if they are due to him or to previous relationships with Father Wild.
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It doesn't matter.
With all due respect, it matters to some. It may or may not matter to all, but clearly it matters to some we have heard.
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With all due respect, it matters to some. It may or may not matter to all, but clearly it matters to some we have heard.
It matters to people who mistakenly think it matters. MU shouldn't cater to them.
In other words, don't change your overall strategy to suit those who believe a useless metric is meaningful.
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It matters to people who mistakenly think it matters. MU shouldn't cater to them.
In other words, don't change your overall strategy to suit those who believe a useless metric is meaningful.
Not sure I understand this logic. If our strategy is to make the place less desirable and leads to qualified kids not attending or even considering MU because of that strategy, how is that a good thing?
In the psyche of kids, a lot of them want to feel they play for a winning team, or are selected into a special club. The more difficult it is to be on that winning team or select club, the better it is. Aspirational. If it becomes a situation where anyone can get in or isn’t very selective, for the money it costs to attend, that’s a problem.
I don’t see how a strategy of an avg state school admissions policy with a upper end price tag is a winner in the long run.
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Not sure I understand this logic. If our strategy is to make the place less desirable and leads to qualified kids not attending or even considering MU because of that strategy, how is that a good thing?
In the psyche of kids, a lot of them want to feel they play for a winning team, or are selected into a special club. The more difficult it is to be on that winning team or select club, the better it is. Aspirational. If it becomes a situation where anyone can get in or isn’t very selective, for the money it costs to attend, that’s a problem.
I don’t see how a strategy of an avg state school admissions policy with a upper end price tag is a winner in the long run.
There are many things that Marquette does very well that talked about. Graduation rates and job placement rates are strong and should be emphasized. The Jesuit tradition and what that means in today's world should be emphasized.
Racking up useless applications, which cost money to recruit and process only to turn people down, for the sake of making someone feel "special," is anti-intellectual and ethically questionable.
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I will donate $2mb of Wayne Sanders' money to get the Warrior name back.
Even if Wayne Sanders had that much to get the Warrior name back Lovell would refuse.
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think MU is keeping the warrior thing as their ace in the hole eyn'a?
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html)
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Must of been reading Scoop for article ideas.
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html)
Imagine that.... money trumps all, even in the 'enlightened' and 'progressive' halls of higher education.
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Imagine that.... money trumps all, even in the 'enlightened' and 'progressive' halls of higher education.
Particularly in the athletic departments.
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html)
Fascinating article thanks for posting! The elitism and snobbery within Northeasten higher education in particular never ceases to amaze me. I found this quote to be very disturbing:
“The problem, Hoxby and Avery explained, was that many high-achieving low-income students were making self-destructive decisions as high school seniors, applying to local community colleges or nearby public universities rather than the highly selective institutions where their academic records would likely win them admission — and where generous need-based financial aid policies like Harvard’s might enable them to earn their degree at a significant discount.”
The notion that any student applying to a community college or local state university is making a “self destructive” choice is beyond offensive!
Don’t get me wrong, if some of these students are indeed elite college material they should absolutely be encouraged to apply to those types of schools, but if they choose not to apply to elite schools, and instead choose to apply to, or worse, actually attend, a community college or local state university, they’re making a self destructive decision is among the most offensive and elitist things I’ve ever heard! Just despicable!
And I say all this as someone that thinks MU should aim higher themselves but the notion that the pursuit of any higher education is self destructive, well that says a lot.
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Well said Disco Hippie.
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html)
Thank you for sharing this. Enjoyed the read, I thought it might be a bit tilting, but some excellent points of view to ponder especially as a parent about to put his last one into college.
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Racking up useless applications, which cost money to recruit and process only to turn people down, for the sake of making someone feel "special," is anti-intellectual and ethically questionable.
I agree with you completely on this! What I don't understand is why MU doesn't want to increase their pool of viable and qualified applicants. The overwhelming majority of applicants to ivy's and their ilk are academically qualified to attend there. Yes, they receive some lark applications from kids who have no chance, but that's a relatively small percentage and in most cases 80% of the applicant pool for the most elitist of elite institutions meet the academic criteria required and these schools overwhelmingly resort to non academic metrics or what they refer to as intangibles to decide who they accept and who they don't.
Granted MU is never going to have the same demand that those schools do but if you compare MU to a place like say Fordham University in NYC, they're roughly the same size as MU, a little larger but that's due to their graduate students who comprise close to 40% of their enrollment. Undergrad enrollment is only marginally more than MU, they're not ranked that much higher than us, yet they have over 40,000 applications and we have 15K? Even more frustrating, Athletics are a non factor there, and given their location in the philanthropy capital of the U.S, their endowment isn't much more impressive than ours. Other than being in NYC which is certainly a selling point I'm not sure what makes them so much more popular??????
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Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision? Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area. That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood. With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.
I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison. My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street. I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life." I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else. That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.
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Thanks everyone. Lot's of good discussion and information being shared.
One question: I read frequently, and have had the inclination to agree with, the sentiment that MU will never be "X", "Y" or "Z" school academically. But I ask, why not? When I attended MU in the early '90s schools like Iowa and Wisconsin were a few of the 'safety' schools for me and my MU friends and schools like Michigan State and Ohio State were not thought of highly at all for undergraduate degrees, but now I see those schools in the 100-50 range in the rankings. If those schools can raise their profile, why not MU?
To be clear, I don't think MU has to move from 80 to 50, but I don't view it as impossible.
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Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision? Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area. That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood. With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.
I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison. My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street. I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life." I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else. That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.
I think its funny that the neighbourhood angle is considered. I'm only 28 and I consider the MU of now a "nerfy life" compared to when I even started in 2009. But the neighbourhood isn't as bad as it once was, the police force and military grade cameras everywhere are a huge deterrent, and there's a surprising amount of new businesses around, plus the Ambassador being a nice hotel helps bring a bit more money and puts a spotlight on the area as well for MPD.
If someone in High School was deterred because of current neighbourhood they probably aren't MU material in the first place.
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Here are two MU Wire articles that shed a little more light on the enrollment goals. One from early May of this year about 2 weeks before the deposit deadline, the other from just a couple of weeks ago.
Their enrollment goal for this fall's incoming Freshman class was 2,077 according to the Provost in the May article. Their actual enrollment according to the August article ended up at 1,975, 102 short of goal. I don't know much about higher education finance and budgeting but from everything I've read a 100 student shortfall can have a pretty significant impact on a tuition dependent school like MU. How much did that play into the 2.5% cut? Is it more than they're claiming and the future demographic stuff is just spin, as some on here believe?
The August article also says that incoming numbers from IL, although still the largest feeder state to MU, are down this year and that the IL market in particular has become increasingly competitive. For those of you that live there and have high school age kids, I'd love to know your take on why you think that is. Does it have anything to do with the state's recent conversion from ACT to SAT? Might this have encouraged more kids to apply to schools out east that wouldn't have previously? It's not like more colleges are opening in IL or anywhere else, so what is your take? Links to both articles below, and kudos to the students' very solid reporting.
https://marquettewire.org/4012913/news/university-academic-senate-discusses-enrollment-and-democratic-national-convention/
https://marquettewire.org/4014920/news/total-enrollment-down-for-the-class-of-2023-college-of-communication-on-the-rise/
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Thanks everyone. Lot's of good discussion and information being shared.
One question: I read frequently, and have had the inclination to agree with, the sentiment that MU will never be "X", "Y" or "Z" school academically. But I ask, why not? When I attended MU in the early '90s schools like Iowa and Wisconsin were a few of the 'safety' schools for me and my MU friends and schools like Michigan State and Ohio State were not thought of highly at all for undergraduate degrees, but now I see those schools in the 100-50 range in the rankings. If those schools can raise their profile, why not MU?
To be clear, I don't think MU has to move from 80 to 50, but I don't view it as impossible.
Marquette won't move that high since they are not a research university.
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Here are two MU Wire articles that shed a little more light on the enrollment goals. One from early May of this year about 2 weeks before the deposit deadline, the other from just a couple of weeks ago.
Their enrollment goal for this fall's incoming Freshman class was 2,077 according to the Provost in the May article. Their actual enrollment according to the August article ended up at 1,975, 102 short of goal. I don't know much about higher education finance and budgeting but from everything I've read a 100 student shortfall can have a pretty significant impact on a tuition dependent school like MU. How much did that play into the 2.5% cut? Is it more than they're claiming and the future demographic stuff is just spin, as some on here believe?
The August article also says that incoming numbers from IL, although still the largest feeder state to MU, are down this year and that the IL market in particular has become increasingly competitive. For those of you that live there and have high school age kids, I'd love to know your take on why you think that is. Does it have anything to do with the state's recent conversion from ACT to SAT? Might this have encouraged more kids to apply to schools out east that wouldn't have previously? It's not like more colleges are opening in IL or anywhere else, so what is your take? Links to both articles below, and kudos to the students' very solid reporting.
https://marquettewire.org/4012913/news/university-academic-senate-discusses-enrollment-and-democratic-national-convention/
https://marquettewire.org/4014920/news/total-enrollment-down-for-the-class-of-2023-college-of-communication-on-the-rise/
I don't have high school kids, but here's a couple of off-the-cuff thoughts:
1) Loyola has recently jumped in the rankings. Their rise could be coming at MU's expense.
2) Lots of smaller schools in IL (and and a few in WI, for that matter) are now offering programs that weren't typically offered by smaller schools, e.g., nursing, business, engineering, etc.
3) Other neighboring states' schools are starting to recruit in IL. For example, UWM advertises on Chicago radio. I've even seen a UWM billboard or two in Chicago.
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Marquette won't move that high since they are not a research university.
Strictly speaking, any school categorized as a "national university" (in the USWNR) is considered a research university. The research classifications range from R1 to R3. Last I checked MU was an R2 school.
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Marquette won't move that high since they are not a research university.
Incorrect, at least as it relates to the category MU is in for these ratings.
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I think there are a few keys in this thread. One the acceptance rate is concerning, especially with an expected decline in the prospective student pool. That is one of the reasons why planning ahead to downsize is important in my opinion. Need to get out in front and not just try to maintain current size. It is also one of the reasons that a focus on scholarships is more important now than ever. This is the combination that can make the difference: downsize and better scholarships. The idea that it is a marketing problem ignore the reality of what other schools are doing in the scholarship area and ignore that Marquette is doing in its marketing.
For someone who said they saved 30K in loans for a child by going to UW versus Marquette, I think I'd go with Marquette under those circumstances unless there was a particular major that Marquette did not have. Marquette does a great job with undergrad education and job placement and for my kid the 30K difference would be worth a Marquette experience, values, etc... Since UW was compared a few times, I do believe that US News, since they are a main topic, ranks MU ahead of UW for undergrad teaching and MU ahead of UW for best value. If I can find the info quickly, I'll post it, otherwise if someone else has time they can verify.
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For someone who said they saved 30K in loans for a child by going to UW versus Marquette, I think I'd go with Marquette under those circumstances unless there was a particular major that Marquette did not have. Marquette does a great job with undergrad education and job placement and for my kid the 30K difference would be worth a Marquette experience, values, etc... Since UW was compared a few times, I do believe that US News, since they are a main topic, ranks MU ahead of UW for undergrad teaching and MU ahead of UW for best value. If I can find the info quickly, I'll post it, otherwise if someone else has time they can verify.
IMHO, it goes beyond just the presence or absence of specific majors. My two daughters:
I live in MN, so while she could have opted for Madison, my older daughter went to the U of MN. The main reason was that she got into their honors program, which is fairly unique. At many schools (including UW), students in the "honors" program basically take the same classes as all other students, with the addition of one or two "honors" classes, and possibly a paper. At U of MN, it is totally different. Honors students essentially get a green light to self-tailor a course of study, and professors are told to give honors students the green light for most any class, even if they don't technically have all prerequisites or upperclass standing. Because of this, my daughter was able to take upperclass and even entry-level grad classes from the start, and build a transcript that she never would have had at MU or UW.
My younger daughter went into journalism. They have a Journalism (Communications?) major at MU but she also got into Mizzou, which has long been considered one of the best J-schools in the country. She went to Mizzou, and got an incredible education at far less cost than MU.
So it isn't just majors that don't exist at MU, but it can apply to broader programs or opportunities. And it can apply where MU and the other school both have the major, but the other school's program is clearly superior.
Anyhow, I am not arguing that MU isn't a great school - far from it. But as parents who are both MU alums, my wife and I were 100% in agreement with our daughters' decisions to go elsewhere.
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It looks like UW and MU are tied for undergrad teaching at 76:
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching
For best value:
MU 55
UW 92
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value
This bolsters my impressions, for what US News ranking are worth, that I'd pick MU for undergrad in most cases over UW. MU still has a lot of writing and professors that put the extra time into the undergrad students, etc, as opposed to just a lot of multiple choice tests, and big name profs that don't want to deal with undergrads (at least unless they have a 10 foot pole).
But in the end it is what a student makes of it and fit. Some kids would be best served at a small liberal arts college in a small town, with really small class sizes. Some at a large school with large lecture halls where one can be more invisible.. some a bit of both, etc.
Marquette still gets it done in value for what you pay out and get back. Gotta keep this going, beset way a Marshall plan for scholarships funding at the expense of buildings.
GooooMarquette: This post is not a response to your post. Timing.
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Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision? Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area. That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood. With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.
I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison. My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street. I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life." I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else. That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.
MUDPT - My daughter wanted an urban area school in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic or Coastal South.
Marquette was her number 1 choice by a mile. Neighborhood mattered not at all. (The neighborhood is a million times better than my tenure from 1987-1991.)
She ended up at Xavier because she liked it best after Marquette, liked that it was Jesuit, liked the city location and they offered a significantly higher scholarships & grants. To mirror GOO, to go to Marquette would have added $50k in student loans. She told my wife and I, "I want to go there and love it, but not it's not worth that $ difference."
My niece is a Freshman at Marquette, but there were no significant grants or scholarships involved with her final school decisions so she picked the one she liked best.
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Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision? Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area. That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood. With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.
I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison. My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street. I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life." I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else. That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.
Neighborhood so much better now then when I was there. One of my roomies was jumped twice and mugged. We had a mini riot at the Brooks Union one night that must have had 20 cop cars arrive....that was quite the night. Etc, etc.
Enough grit still to put an edge on things which is good. Ultimately my oldest had a slew of schools to choose from traditional college campuses to urban ones. He made the choice after visiting the “pretty” ones that he wanted the hustle and bustle of a city. Pitt was one of his finalists that also fit the category. He liked the energy of the city.
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The trend towards wanting to be in urban areas/cities is a big plus for MU.
Thirty years ago the neighborhood was not as nice, and a lot of people avoided cities. Now, it seems that everyone wants to be in cities and the MU neighborhood has improved a lot. Two nice trends for MU.
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The trend towards wanting to be in urban areas/cities is a big plus for MU.
Thirty years ago the neighborhood was not as nice, and a lot of people avoided cities. Now, it seems that everyone wants to be in cities and the MU neighborhood has improved a lot. Two nice trends for MU.
For some, yup. My daughter and many others...cringe at the idea. Definitely a plus for some.
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I agree with you completely on this! What I don't understand is why MU doesn't want to increase their pool of viable and qualified applicants. The overwhelming majority of applicants to ivy's and their ilk are academically qualified to attend there. Yes, they receive some lark applications from kids who have no chance, but that's a relatively small percentage and in most cases 80% of the applicant pool for the most elitist of elite institutions meet the academic criteria required and these schools overwhelmingly resort to non academic metrics or what they refer to as intangibles to decide who they accept and who they don't.
Granted MU is never going to have the same demand that those schools do but if you compare MU to a place like say Fordham University in NYC, they're roughly the same size as MU, a little larger but that's due to their graduate students who comprise close to 40% of their enrollment. Undergrad enrollment is only marginally more than MU, they're not ranked that much higher than us, yet they have over 40,000 applications and we have 15K? Even more frustrating, Athletics are a non factor there, and given their location in the philanthropy capital of the U.S, their endowment isn't much more impressive than ours. Other than being in NYC which is certainly a selling point I'm not sure what makes them so much more popular??????
I don’t think you understand how expensive increasing the pool of “qualified applicants” would be. That’s not easy nor is it inexpensive.
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I don’t think you understand how expensive increasing the pool of “qualified applicants” would be. That’s not easy nor is it inexpensive.
I'm sure it's challenging and expensive but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be, they need to figure out a way. Diversity is more than just racial and socio-economic. Geographic diversity is important as well and I know it's not a high priority for them, but if the pool of college age students will be shrinking as much as they say, especially in the upper midwest, they have to figure out a way to not only grow, but maintain quality of the applicant pool.
In the 70's (I assume for obvious reasons) almost 40% of the student body hailed from the Northeast and Mid Atlantic region. It remained that way until the mid 80's but there was a precipitous decline starting around 1986 and it has never recovered. The 2003 Final Four run provided a brief respite in the early 2000's but those gains were short lived, and the damage had already been done to such an extent that it would never have recovered to 70's levels.
There just aren't enough Alums in this area any more to help with recruiting it seems. I do everything I can but it's very tough. That said, All it takes is for one student to matriculate, and then word of mouth takes over. 10 years ago a student in a neighboring town decided to attend, she was a popular person as were her younger siblings, all 3 of whom also ended up going to MU over the next 5 years and that contributed to that high school sending 15-20 applications to MU annually and many matriculations. If you look at the applicants from high schools in southwestern CT, most have 3-4 max (even the catholic high schools) but this one excellent PUBLIC high school has had 5x as many applicants to MU as almost every other high school nearby over the last 8 years, all because 1 student went there and and had a great experience. Word of mouth is a HUGE factor.
As I mentioned before, Miami of Ohio is the #1 most popular school for students in my town to apply too.
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I'm sure it's challenging and expensive but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be, they need to figure out a way. Diversity is more than just racial and socio-economic. Geographic diversity is important as well and I know it's not a high priority for them, but if the pool of college age students will be shrinking as much as they say, especially in the upper midwest, they have to figure out a way to both grow and maintain quality of the applicant pool.
In the 70's (I assume for obvious reasons) almost 40% of the student body hailed from the Northeast and Mid Atlantic region. It remained that way until the mid 80's but there was a precipitous decline starting around 1986 and it never recovered. The 2003 Final Four run provided a brief respite in the early 2000's but those gains were not short lived, and the damage had already been done.
There just aren't enough Alums in this area any more to help it seems.
Is this documented anywhere, or is this your guess? That sounds way high to me.
I know that in the early-to-mid-80's, about 25% of the students were commuters. If 40% were from the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, that means only 35% were from everywhere else - including Chicago, Wisconsin, and the rest of the country.
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...but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be...
Honest question: who is the "they" you're referring to in this sentence? It seems to me that Marquette's recent focus suggests that "they" (i.e., the powers that be at Marquette) aren't really saying that "they" want to be a "National University." Of course "they" will welcome students from all over, but the emphasis seems to be shifting to a more regional approach.
Not trying to be a smart ass here, I'm just wondering what you're referring to.
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The trend towards wanting to be in urban areas/cities is a big plus for MU.
Thirty years ago the neighborhood was not as nice, and a lot of people avoided cities. Now, it seems that everyone wants to be in cities and the MU neighborhood has improved a lot. Two nice trends for MU.
Agreed. For both of my daughters, the urban location was more of a plus than a minus. When I attended in the early 80s, it was much more of a concern.
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Agreed. For both of my daughters, the urban location was more of a plus than a minus. When I attended in the early 80s, it was much more of a concern.
My son absolutely did not want an urban area. My oldest daughter insisted on it. Incidentally, she's visited Marquette the last couple years and really liked the location/environment.
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Is this documented anywhere, or is this your guess? That sounds way high to me.
I know that in the early-to-mid-80's, about 25% of the students were commuters. If 40% were from the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, that means only 35% were from everywhere else - including Chicago, Wisconsin, and the rest of the country.
That's what I've been told, although admittedly I haven't seen any official data. Anecdotally though it seems accurate and I"ll tell you why. For the first probably 10 years after I graduated in the early 90's, I was even more active in the NYC area alumni club as I am now, and at that time the overwhelming majority of alums you would encounter were originally from the Northeast and just went to MU for school. If they weren't from the NYC area originally they tended to be folks from Boston, Philly, Baltimore, or DC but working in NYC and most were considerably older than me and graduated in the late 70's / early 80's. Of course there were some Midwestern transplants working in NYC as well but they were a minority in the Alumni club at the time.
Today, it's the complete opposite and the overwhelming majority of active participants in the NYC club are Midwestern transplants largely from Greater Chicago and WI as one would expect. Folks originally from the NE are rare at NYC Alum events these days, and the few that are tend to be in their 60's or older.
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That's what I've been told, although admittedly I haven't seen any official data. Anecdotally though it seems accurate and I tell you why. For the first probably 8-9 years after I graduated in the early 90's I was even more active in the NYC area alumni club then as I am now, and at that time the overwhelming majority of alums you would encounter were originally from the Northeast and just went to MU for school. If they weren't from the NYC area originally they tended to be folks from Boston, Philly, Baltimore, or DC but working in NYC and most were considerably older than me and graduated in the late 70's / early 80's. Of course there were some Midwestern transplants working in NYC as well but they were a minority in the Alumni club at the time.
Today, it's the complete opposite and the overwhelming majority of active participants in the NYC club are Midwestern transplants from the midwest, and folks originally from the NE are rare outliers.
I graduated in the mid-80's so I am speaking from an anecdotal angle that might be a little better than yours. There is no way that 40% of Marquette students were from the East Coast. If you don't believe me, pull up some yearbooks from that time period. They contain the permanent addresses of all of the graduating seniors.
http://cdm16280.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4007hilltop/id/15390
Also, what makes you think you can gauge the number of students from the East Coast based on the people who show up for Marquette Club functions in NYC? Did it ever occur to you that transplants might need to network more than homegrown folks and that's why they participate?
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As I mentioned before, Miami of Ohio is the #1 most popular school for students in my town to apply too.
Could that be because it’s thought of as one of the top party schools in the country?
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Could that be because it’s thought of as one of the top party schools in the country?
Common sight during late August in Disco Hippie's town:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/9a/88/799a88da3cf094027b06e5f2d8f46862.jpg)
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Could that be because it’s thought of as one of the top party schools in the country?
It's not even the top party school in Ohio.
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I'm sure it's challenging and expensive but if they truly want to be the "National University" that they claim to want to be, they need to figure out a way.
They already are a national university.
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I don’t think you understand how expensive increasing the pool of “qualified applicants” would be. That’s not easy nor is it inexpensive.
And, how increasingly competitive that pool of applicants will become as it shrinks demographically.
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This is kind a cool model that Marquette may want to look at to see how a fellow Jesuit school is reaching out to the underserved population.
https://www.luc.edu/arrupe/about/aboutarrupecollege/
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This is kind a cool model that Marquette may want to look at to see how a fellow Jesuit school is reaching out to the underserved population.
https://www.luc.edu/arrupe/about/aboutarrupecollege/
+1. Loyola has been owning Marquette's shorts. This utilizes their fixed assets, keeps tuition costs reasonable, works to assimilate first generation students, and fills their recruiting pipeline.
Two year colleges are disproportionately minority because of costs, high school academic resources and students being firsts. These programs are forward-looking as they adapt to the reality of the marketplace. All the while keeping with their core mission...and raising their USNWR rankings.
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+1. Loyola has been owning Marquette's shorts. This utilizes their fixed assets, keeps tuition costs reasonable, works to assimilate first generation students, and fills their recruiting pipeline.
Two year colleges are disproportionately minority because of costs, high school academic resources and students being firsts. These programs are forward-looking as they adapt to the reality of the marketplace. All the while keeping with their core mission...and raising their USNWR rankings.
And many of these students succeed better at a two year setting. Without risking as many resources. I think Marquette should really look at something like this.
And it wouldn’t impact rankings because legally it is a separate institution.
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And many of these students succeed better at a two year setting. Without risking as many resources. I think Marquette should really look at something like this.
And it wouldn’t impact rankings because legally it is a separate institution.
I read something recently that minority transfers graduate at a higher rate too...like almost 90%. Assimilation programs are very successful for all students actually for the cost. And, we have thousands of alumni willing to volunteer to be mentors. Start with the petition list.
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And many of these students succeed better at a two year setting. Without risking as many resources. I think Marquette should really look at something like this.
And it wouldn’t impact rankings because legally it is a separate institution.
Marquette has established transfer agreements with MATC and Oakton Community College, an Illinois community college with campuses in Des Plaines and Skokie. Not sure if there are other partnerships in the pipeline.
https://www.marquette.edu/explore/transfer-students-matc-guaranteed-admission.php (https://www.marquette.edu/explore/transfer-students-matc-guaranteed-admission.php)
https://today.marquette.edu/2019/02/marquette-partners-with-oakton-community-college-to-smooth-transfer-process/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2019/02/marquette-partners-with-oakton-community-college-to-smooth-transfer-process/)
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Marquette has established transfer agreements with MATC and Oakton Community College, an Illinois community college with campuses in Des Plaines and Skokie. Not sure if there are other partnerships in the pipeline.
https://www.marquette.edu/explore/transfer-students-matc-guaranteed-admission.php (https://www.marquette.edu/explore/transfer-students-matc-guaranteed-admission.php)
https://today.marquette.edu/2019/02/marquette-partners-with-oakton-community-college-to-smooth-transfer-process/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2019/02/marquette-partners-with-oakton-community-college-to-smooth-transfer-process/)
Also with Elgin Community College.
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Honest question: who is the "they" you're referring to in this sentence? It seems to me that Marquette's recent focus suggests that "they" (i.e., the powers that be at Marquette) aren't really saying that "they" want to be a "National University." Of course "they" will welcome students from all over, but the emphasis seems to be shifting to a more regional approach.
Not trying to be a smart ass here, I'm just wondering what you're referring to.
Yes, I’m referring to the administration and there IS language to that effect in the strategic plan. If that’s not the direction they want to take, I can accept that even if I don’t agree with it, but then they should remove those aspirational claims and not say one thing and do another.
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I graduated in the mid-80's so I am speaking from an anecdotal angle that might be a little better than yours. There is no way that 40% of Marquette students were from the East Coast. If you don't believe me, pull up some yearbooks from that time period. They contain the permanent addresses of all of the graduating seniors.
http://cdm16280.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4007hilltop/id/15390
Also, what makes you think you can gauge the number of students from the East Coast based on the people who show up for Marquette Club functions in NYC? Did it ever occur to you that transplants might need to network more than homegrown folks and that's why they participate?
I agree the 40% figure is probably exaggerated, but I was told roughly that number by more than 1 MU administrator in admissions both whom had been there a while during my tenure as well as other alums anecdotally. Even if the actual figure is only half that, which could very well be true, that’s a lot more than they get from the region today, that’s the point I’m trying to make.
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I agree the 40% figure is probably exaggerated, but I was told roughly that number by more than 1 MU administrator in admissions both whom had been there a while during my tenure as well as other alums anecdotally. Even if the actual figure is only half that, which could very well be true, that’s a lot more than they get from the region today, that’s the point I’m trying to make.
I recently learned that Xavier has been pulling 2-3 times as many students from Connecticut than Marquette as well as in Massachusetts. Was surprised at the numbers and did not expect. I figured they would have been relatively equal.
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Slightly off/on topic .. didn't Marquette once make a big push to get students from Guam?
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Not sure about Marquette, but freshman year I made a big push on a coed from Guam
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Slightly off/on topic .. didn't Marquette once make a big push to get students from Guam?
Raises hand.
Leo Flynn, from Admissions, went to Guam every year. He came to my high school and was, without a doubt, the primary reason I ended up at Marquette.
I think there was 15-20 of us in ‘87. My recollection is that MU had more kids from Guam than any school not on the west coast.
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I recently learned that Xavier has been pulling 2-3 times as many students from Connecticut than Marquette as well as in Massachusetts. Was surprised at the numbers and did not expect. I figured they would have been relatively equal.
Cincinnati is 4 hours closer to Connecticut than Milwaukee is. That might have something to do with it.
Here is a dashboard that shows the class of 2022 by state (Click on location):
https://www.marquette.edu/oira/fresh-dash.shtml
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Cincinnati is 4 hours closer to Connecticut than Milwaukee is. That might have something to do with it.
Here is a dashboard that shows the class of 2022 by state (Click on location):
https://www.marquette.edu/oira/fresh-dash.shtml
I would be surprised if someone is making the call based on a 12 vs 16 hour drive twice a year.
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Raises hand.
Leo Flynn, from Admissions, went to Guam every year. He came to my high school and was, without a doubt, the primary reason I ended up at Marquette.
I think there was 15-20 of us in ‘87. My recollection is that MU had more kids from Guam than any school not on the west coast.
I still have my Leo B Flynn signed letter of acceptance.
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Also with Elgin Community College.
Let's add Hutchinson and Indian Hills to the list too.
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Marquette has established transfer agreements with MATC and Oakton Community College, an Illinois community college with campuses in Des Plaines and Skokie. Not sure if there are other partnerships in the pipeline.
https://www.marquette.edu/explore/transfer-students-matc-guaranteed-admission.php (https://www.marquette.edu/explore/transfer-students-matc-guaranteed-admission.php)
https://today.marquette.edu/2019/02/marquette-partners-with-oakton-community-college-to-smooth-transfer-process/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2019/02/marquette-partners-with-oakton-community-college-to-smooth-transfer-process/)
This is good. I can see advantages to operating your own Juco though. It’s more expensive obviously.
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https://www.axios.com/americas-race-diversity-population-1d8b2664-860d-4c9f-84a6-416af8421601.html
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Cincinnati is 4 hours closer to Connecticut than Milwaukee is. That might have something to do with it.
Here is a dashboard that shows the class of 2022 by state (Click on location):
https://www.marquette.edu/oira/fresh-dash.shtml
I really want that to be true and I hope it is because even though it's an excuse/alibi it would be a valid one. My gut says it's not though. Where MUFANCT and I come from, as many graduating seniors attend colleges half way or completely across the country as they do stay within 200 miles so I don't think that's it. I know Xavier isn't halfway across the country from here but it's far enough, and chances are with the exception maybe of traveling there for the start of Freshman year, I'll bet most of those students are flying not driving. If the school you're attending is far enough away to warrant the expense of flying, whether you're on the plane for 1.5 hours or 4 hours is inconsequential. At least it would be to me. MU's marketing and popularity in this region is inferior to Xavier's, but I don't buy that slightly closer proximity is the reason.
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I really want that to be true and I hope it is because even though it's an excuse/alibi it would be a valid one. My gut says it's not though. Where MUFANCT and I come from, as many graduating seniors attend colleges half way or completely across the country as they do stay within 200 miles so I don't think that's it. I know Xavier isn't halfway across the country from here but it's far enough, and chances are with the exception maybe of traveling there for the start of Freshman year, I'll bet most of those students are flying not driving. If the school you're attending is far enough away to warrant the expense of flying, whether you're on the plane for 1.5 hours or 4 hours is inconsequential. At least it would be to me. MU's marketing and popularity in this region is inferior to Xavier's, but I don't buy that slightly closer proximity is the reason.
Fair enough.
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Fair enough.
[/quote
XU's basketball program has also unfortunately performed better than ours over the last 5 years so that probably has a lot to do with the disparity MU Fan in CT cited. Probably more than anything else I'd guess.
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I really want that to be true and I hope it is because even though it's an excuse/alibi it would be a valid one. My gut says it's not though. Where MUFANCT and I come from, as many graduating seniors attend colleges half way or completely across the country as they do stay within 200 miles so I don't think that's it. I know Xavier isn't halfway across the country from here but it's far enough, and chances are with the exception maybe of traveling there for the start of Freshman year, I'll bet most of those students are flying not driving. If the school you're attending is far enough away to warrant the expense of flying, whether you're on the plane for 1.5 hours or 4 hours is inconsequential. At least it would be to me. MU's marketing and popularity in this region is inferior to Xavier's, but I don't buy that slightly closer proximity is the reason.
I think MUFICT said that his daughter would have come to MU if they would have matched XU's scholarship offer.
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I think MUFICT said that his daughter would have come to MU if they would have matched XU's scholarship offer.
Correct.
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I think MUFICT said that his daughter would have come to MU if they would have matched XU's scholarship offer.
Thats interesting, different strokes for different folks. Visited there, only time, with a son for baseball and both of us couldnt get out of there fast enough. Found virtually nothing appealing whatsoever, Apart from the baseball program, the whole campus and school was too much of a negative. He went elsewhere.
Put my oldest thru MU including grad school. Youngest son there now
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Thats interesting, different strokes for different folks. Visited there, only time, with a son for baseball and both of us couldnt get out of there fast enough. Found virtually nothing appealing whatsoever, Apart from the baseball program, the whole campus and school was too much of a negative. He went elsewhere.
Put my oldest thru MU including grad school. Youngest son there now
I did mention the $50k additional in student loans to go to Marquette and that was after getting the apparent max offer from Marquette.
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Marquette retains A2 rating from influential credit-rating agency Moody’s, so everything is okay!
Moody’s Investors Service has assigned the university an A2 credit rating, citing its outlook as “stable.” The influential credit-rating agency extensively analyzed Marquette University, reviewing a wide variety of financial indicators, including net tuition revenue, philanthropic support and debt ratios.
Moody’s says the stable outlook is based on expectations of at least breakeven operating performance, maintenance of favorable debt affordability and no material spend down of reserves.
“Retaining our A2 credit rating is a positive indication that the university is on solid financial footing,” said Joel Pogodzinski, senior vice president and chief operating officer. “With the challenges facing the higher education industry, it’s critical that we continue to operate from a place of fiscal strength so that through our strategic plan, we can decide as an institution how to best move forward, rather than let the market dictate that for us.”
According to Moody’s, the following factors contributed positively to Marquette’s A2 rating:
- Established urban, comprehensive Jesuit university located in the City of Milwaukee
- Sizeable operating revenue
- Sound student demand evidenced by continued, if slowing, net tuition revenue growth
- Strong three-year average philanthropic gift revenue
- Demonstrated careful planning and fiscal oversight, an active approach to capital investment, and a conservative debt structure
https://today.marquette.edu/2019/09/marquette-retains-a2-rating-from-influential-credit-rating-agency-moodys/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2019/09/marquette-retains-a2-rating-from-influential-credit-rating-agency-moodys/)
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I found this interesting .. why shouldn't MU do this?
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/17/carthage-college-says-30-tuition-cut-have-little-revenue-impact/2342671001/
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I found this interesting .. why shouldn't MU do this?
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/17/carthage-college-says-30-tuition-cut-have-little-revenue-impact/2342671001/
I would assume MU is getting rate card from some students while discounting for others. Part of it is image and perception. The same reason luxury or premium brands don’t like to discount as much.
The numbers might make it attractive, but it might also come off as desperation move, too. “Every day low pricing”
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I would assume MU is getting rate card from some students while discounting for others. Part of it is image and perception. The same reason luxury or premium brands don’t like to discount as much.
The numbers might make it attractive, but it might also come off as desperation move, too. “Every day low pricing”
Nailed it
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This strategy would not be good for a couple reasons.
1. Marquette has “full pay” students who take no aid. This just leaves money in the table from that cohort.
2. Chico’s is right on the perception of quality. You don’t want to be the drastically low cost option on a list of peer schools.
This is an average school that is trying to do something to stand out. Really how else would you know anything about Carthage? What are they good at? Where is their niche? It is an attempt to get initial looks and hoping and praying that it turns to applications and enrollments.
I don’t know if they are desperate. But I’ve seen desperate institutions do similar things and it doesn’t usually matter.
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This strategy would not be good for a couple reasons.
1. Marquette has “full pay” students who take no aid. This just leaves money in the table from that cohort.
2. Chico’s is right on the perception of quality. You don’t want to be the drastically low cost option on a list of peer schools.
This is an average school that is trying to do something to stand out. Really how else would you know anything about Carthage? What are they good at? Where is their niche? It is an attempt to get initial looks and hoping and praying that it turns to applications and enrollments.
I don’t know if they are desperate. But I’ve seen desperate institutions do similar things and it doesn’t usually matter.
They're on Lake Michigan, and used to have a beach. Carthage College.
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I would assume MU is getting rate card from some students while discounting for others. Part of it is image and perception. The same reason luxury or premium brands don’t like to discount as much.
The numbers might make it attractive, but it might also come off as desperation move, too. “Every day low pricing”
This.
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They're on Lake Michigan, and used to have a beach. Carthage College.
Carthage is doing fine and it will be interesting if they generate more interest this way, or if students feel less special because they are not getting the 15K scholarship. I agree that this may not be right for MU, since MU probably has a decent amount paying above what the "real" tuition amount is for the average student.
Carthage has a beautiful campus on Lake Michigan. But, they better hope that the lake doesn't keep rising long term, or the shore erosion will be a major issue, especially with some building very close to the high water line.
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A little late to the thread, but I think there some activities underway that will address some of the concerns that folks seem to have. Granted I'm not working with all of the colleges, but I have first hand knowledge of major activities the college of business and engineering are taking to approach two critical issues: demographics and value.
From a demographic standpoint, they are really trying to tackle one of the big issues with the underserved.....they are underserved in primary education which largely leaves them unprepared to succeed in college. So there are a lot of efforts underway to A) identify talent in underserved areas (bluntly put, who's smart and/or motivated enough but just hasn't had the right education) and B) getting that talent up to speed in the foundational knowledge sets so they can be successful in college
From a value standpoint, they are trying to take a pragmatic approach to where students are going after graduation and this really ties back to the "blue collar"concept to a certain degree. The reflection is that by and large students go into the professional world and so the focus needs to be around how do we prepare them for that. So there is a lot of work around how an MU education is providing students with career "value" as well as giving students a significant leg up with potential employers where possible.
One area I would really like MU to look would be in how they approach tuition and give a hard look at breaking the traditional model. Purdue has developed an income share agreement and I think it is a really fantastic idea. It certainly might be a risk and something you'd have to phase in but I would love to see MU move to a model where at least 50% of the students who graduate are incurring little to no debt. Additionally, it can dovetail in nicely from a donation funding model as well ("You've been paying us x% for the last 15 years, would you like to continue to do that voluntarily or at some reduced amount") https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html (https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html)
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Carthage is doing fine and it will be interesting if they generate more interest this way, or if students feel less special because they are not getting the 15K scholarship. I agree that this may not be right for MU, since MU probably has a decent amount paying above what the "real" tuition amount is for the average student.
Carthage has a beautiful campus on Lake Michigan. But, they better hope that the lake doesn't keep rising long term, or the shore erosion will be a major issue, especially with some building very close to the high water line.
With how much water Wisconsin is allowing Foxconn to take out beyond the basin I doubt the lake will continue rising.
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A little late to the thread, but I think there some activities underway that will address some of the concerns that folks seem to have. Granted I'm not working with all of the colleges, but I have first hand knowledge of major activities the college of business and engineering are taking to approach two critical issues: demographics and value.
From a demographic standpoint, they are really trying to tackle one of the big issues with the underserved.....they are underserved in primary education which largely leaves them unprepared to succeed in college. So there are a lot of efforts underway to A) identify talent in underserved areas (bluntly put, who's smart and/or motivated enough but just hasn't had the right education) and B) getting that talent up to speed in the foundational knowledge sets so they can be successful in college
From a value standpoint, they are trying to take a pragmatic approach to where students are going after graduation and this really ties back to the "blue collar"concept to a certain degree. The reflection is that by and large students go into the professional world and so the focus needs to be around how do we prepare them for that. So there is a lot of work around how an MU education is providing students with career "value" as well as giving students a significant leg up with potential employers where possible.
One area I would really like MU to look would be in how they approach tuition and give a hard look at breaking the traditional model. Purdue has developed an income share agreement and I think it is a really fantastic idea. It certainly might be a risk and something you'd have to phase in but I would love to see MU move to a model where at least 50% of the students who graduate are incurring little to no debt. Additionally, it can dovetail in nicely from a donation funding model as well ("You've been paying us x% for the last 15 years, would you like to continue to do that voluntarily or at some reduced amount") https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html (https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html)
That is really a cool looking program and yeah I think this type of thing is a good option. My guess is that if you structured it right, you could use Marquette's endowment as a funding source.
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I still have my Leo B Flynn signed letter of acceptance.
Matt Flynn admitted me into Murph's
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you could use Marquette's endowment as a funding source.
great idea, hadn't even thought of it.
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Matt Flynn admitted me into Murph's
:D. How about General Flynn?
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I would assume MU is getting rate card from some students while discounting for others. Part of it is image and perception. The same reason luxury or premium brands don’t like to discount as much.
The numbers might make it attractive, but it might also come off as desperation move, too. “Every day low pricing”
Earlier this year I was speaking to another parent at an event at our kids' HS. She worked in higher education. She told me that one of the Ohio private colleges -- honestly don't recall which -- had made an aggressive reduction in its tuition and saw their applications reduce significantly. Same school and same education, but the lowered tuition caused a change in how the school was perceived.
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A little late to the thread, but I think there some activities underway that will address some of the concerns that folks seem to have. Granted I'm not working with all of the colleges, but I have first hand knowledge of major activities the college of business and engineering are taking to approach two critical issues: demographics and value.
From a demographic standpoint, they are really trying to tackle one of the big issues with the underserved.....they are underserved in primary education which largely leaves them unprepared to succeed in college. So there are a lot of efforts underway to A) identify talent in underserved areas (bluntly put, who's smart and/or motivated enough but just hasn't had the right education) and B) getting that talent up to speed in the foundational knowledge sets so they can be successful in college
From a value standpoint, they are trying to take a pragmatic approach to where students are going after graduation and this really ties back to the "blue collar"concept to a certain degree. The reflection is that by and large students go into the professional world and so the focus needs to be around how do we prepare them for that. So there is a lot of work around how an MU education is providing students with career "value" as well as giving students a significant leg up with potential employers where possible.
One area I would really like MU to look would be in how they approach tuition and give a hard look at breaking the traditional model. Purdue has developed an income share agreement and I think it is a really fantastic idea. It certainly might be a risk and something you'd have to phase in but I would love to see MU move to a model where at least 50% of the students who graduate are incurring little to no debt. Additionally, it can dovetail in nicely from a donation funding model as well ("You've been paying us x% for the last 15 years, would you like to continue to do that voluntarily or at some reduced amount") https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html (https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/FAQ/index.html)
Does this impact their credit score?
Student loans is a weighty subject, even political. Not to get into that, but one overlooked benefit is paying back those loans will build up a young person’s credit score. With this Purdue example, would that be a benefit, too?
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Student loans are often times a detriment to credit because of their size versus your income. If you want to build up a credit score, get a credit card and pay off the balance monthly.
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Carthage is doing fine and it will be interesting if they generate more interest this way, or if students feel less special because they are not getting the 15K scholarship. I agree that this may not be right for MU, since MU probably has a decent amount paying above what the "real" tuition amount is for the average student.
Carthage has a beautiful campus on Lake Michigan. But, they better hope that the lake doesn't keep rising long term, or the shore erosion will be a major issue, especially with some building very close to the high water line.
Also, their athletic facilities are incredible, especially for a D3 school. It was bankrolled mostly by a single donor.
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Earlier this year I was speaking to another parent at an event at our kids' HS. She worked in higher education. She told me that one of the Ohio private colleges -- honestly don't recall which -- had made an aggressive reduction in its tuition and saw their applications reduce significantly. Same school and same education, but the lowered tuition caused a change in how the school was perceived.
This is very surprising to me. Folks in my neck of the woods here in suburban NYC care a lot about brand and status and exclusivity and all that but as superficial, as so many folks out here are, I’ve never heard of anyone equating high tuition with quality. Not that I’m questioning this, I just find it surprising because as I‘ve mentioned before, so many kids out here go to UMich, UWMad, Miami Ohio, and other prestigious state flagships in other parts of the country and pay out of state tuition, which while very expensive, is still demonstrably less than a lot of prestigious liberal arts colleges, and I have heard families say many times the education at say Madison or Michigan is just as good as a place like Colgate or Middlebury and even with out of state tuition and travel costs is often still more than 20K less than those other places so they go for that reason.
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This is very surprising to me. Folks in my neck of the woods here in suburban NYC care a lot about brand and status and exclusivity and all that but as superficial, as so many folks out here are, I’ve never heard of anyone equating high tuition with quality. Not that I’m questioning this, I just find it surprising because as I‘ve mentioned before, so many kids out here go to UMich, UWMad, Miami Ohio, and other prestigious state flagships in other parts of the country and pay out of state tuition, which while very expensive, is still demonstrably less than a lot of prestigious liberal arts colleges, and I have heard families say many times the education at say Madison or Michigan is just as good as a place like Colgate or Middlebury and even with out of state tuition and travel costs is often still more than 20K less than those other places so they go for that reason.
You aren't comparing apples to apples. People expect state schools to be less expensive, even if you are paying out-of-state tuition. But are those people willing to pay the same to attend St. Rando's College as they would Middlebury?
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You aren't comparing apples to apples. People expect state schools to be less expensive, even if you are paying out-of-state tuition. But are those people willing to pay the same to attend St. Rando's College as they would Middlebury?
How is the hoops team at St. Rando's?
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How is the hoops team at St. Rando's?
Average.
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I saw this in the New Haven Register. Sound familiar?
Fast-growing Quinnipiac to make cuts after admitting fewer students
By Liz Teitz
Sep. 20, 2019 Updated: Sep. 20, 2019 12:33 p.m.
https://www.ctinsider.com/news/nhregister/article/Fast-growing-Quinnipiac-to-make-cuts-after-14455519.php?sid=5baaacf72ddf9c545d737065&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CT_NHR_Insider