How concerning is this?

[Disco Hippie]

FTR , USNWR has dropped acceptance rate as a criterion and focused more on graduation rates.

Very true and a welcome and appropriate change.  Unfortunately, prospective students and their parents just aren't there yet and I suspect it will take many, many years for them to adopt a more pragmatic approach to higher education.  Until the U.S. adopts a European style model for higher education which is much more career focused and only takes 3 years for Bachelors, I suspect exclusivity will still matter.  It still does in Europe too, but too a lesser degree.  Even if the major U.S. institutions decide to replicate the European model down the road, the expensive of Private higher education will still be substantial, just not quite as much.

Seems like MU could benefit tremendously from a Final Four run because short of that, I don't think the situation will improve all that much, and even if we do, that hoops success would need to be sustained over a 3-5 year period to have a meaningful impact instead of just a 1 year bump.

[79Warrior]

Sadly, this will continue to happen as long as Marquette alums refuse to donate to scholarship endowments for reasons like "They changed our nickname to the Golden Eagles" or "I paid plenty of money to Marquette when I was a student".

Everyone has a right to choose what they do with their money.  However, it's pretty disingenuous to complain how Marquette hasn't kept up with other schools, but  do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.

What Lovell has not developed during his tenure in the big whale donations to move the needle.

[Disco Hippie]

DiscoHippie and 1SE, I completely agree w/you. The only defense MU admissions could possibly have for that depressingly high admissions % is that they're not attracting as large of a pool of applicants as they used to (maybe due to the hoops team's mediocrity not giving us much national exposure). My son grew up loving MU hoops, but last year when applying to schools, he took one look at the acceptance rate and asked "Dad, what's up w/that?" It was a huge red flag. When he dug deeper on Naviance.com he saw that kids from his high school were being accepted to MU with GPAs that hovered around 3.0 and ACTs in the low 20s. He subsequently applied to and was accepted to Madison. Never thought I'd admit this, but I'm glad he's at UW. He'll get a better education at a fraction of the cost (we're WI residents) of attending MU.

So much for the notion that this POV is only held by snobs on the coasts.  For the record I completely agree with the many of you on this board that this shouldn't matter and has no bearing on quality.   Congratulations on being right!   It shouldn't matter, but in the real world it does, and will continue to for the forseeable future.  As long as MU continues with this approach, they will continue to lose prospective students because of it.

[Cheeks]

I will donate $2m of Wayne Sanders' money to get the Warrior name back.

Colossal mistake by MU.....we still get stiffed by donations today....the answer was so easy to appease all but MU found a way to screw the pooch on this one.

[MUHoopsFan2]

I'm not an expert of higher education budgeting and financing, but this is the 1st time I've ever heard of a university trimming staff based on future/demographic changes.  Usually, cuts are reactive to a real-time reduction in enrollment, etc.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/05/marquette-lays-off-24-faculty-and-staff-leaves-50-positions-unfilled/2225523001/

The data that Dr. Lovell cites is really interesting.  While not directly basketball-related, this appears to be a foundational issue.

Has NOTHING to do with basketball...

Students are not saying. "I am not or can't go to MU because the basketball team is not in the Final Four... lol

[Dr. Blackheart]

Colossal mistake by MU.....we still get stiffed by donations today....the answer was so easy to appease all but MU found a way to screw the pooch on this one.

Cue the "Crean Sucks" posts...

[Cheeks]

Cue the "Crean Sucks" posts...

DiUlio sucks.....

[The Sultan]

So much for the notion that this POV is only held by snobs on the coasts.  For the record I completely agree with the many of you on this board that this shouldn't matter and has no bearing on quality.   Congratulations on being right!   It shouldn't matter, but in the real world it does, and will continue to for the forseeable future.  As long as MU continues with this approach, they will continue to lose prospective students because of it.

It doesn't matter.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

What Lovell has not developed during his tenure in the big whale donations to move the needle.

He's had a couple during his tenure.  But it's hard to say if they are due to him or to previous relationships with Father Wild.

[Cheeks]

It doesn't matter.

With all due respect, it matters to some.  It may or may not matter to all, but clearly it matters to some we have heard.

[The Sultan]

With all due respect, it matters to some.  It may or may not matter to all, but clearly it matters to some we have heard.

It matters to people who mistakenly think it matters.  MU shouldn't cater to them.

In other words, don't change your overall strategy to suit those who believe a useless metric is meaningful. 

[Cheeks]

It matters to people who mistakenly think it matters.  MU shouldn't cater to them.

In other words, don't change your overall strategy to suit those who believe a useless metric is meaningful.

Not sure I understand this logic.  If our strategy is to make the place less desirable and leads to qualified kids not attending or even considering MU because of that strategy, how is that a good thing?

In the psyche of kids, a lot of them want to feel they play for a winning team, or are selected into a special club.  The more difficult it is to be on that winning team or select club, the better it is.  Aspirational.  If it becomes a situation where anyone can get in or isn't very selective, for the money it costs to attend, that's a problem.

I don't see how a strategy of an avg state school admissions policy with a upper end price tag is a winner in the long run.

[The Sultan]

Not sure I understand this logic.  If our strategy is to make the place less desirable and leads to qualified kids not attending or even considering MU because of that strategy, how is that a good thing?

In the psyche of kids, a lot of them want to feel they play for a winning team, or are selected into a special club.  The more difficult it is to be on that winning team or select club, the better it is.  Aspirational.  If it becomes a situation where anyone can get in or isn't very selective, for the money it costs to attend, that's a problem.

I don't see how a strategy of an avg state school admissions policy with a upper end price tag is a winner in the long run.

There are many things that Marquette does very well that talked about.  Graduation rates and job placement rates are strong and should be emphasized.  The Jesuit tradition and what that means in today's world should be emphasized. 

Racking up useless applications, which cost money to recruit and process only to turn people down, for the sake of making someone feel "special," is anti-intellectual and ethically questionable.

[muwarrior69]

I will donate $2mb of Wayne Sanders' money to get the Warrior name back.

Even if Wayne Sanders had that much to get the Warrior name back Lovell would refuse.

[rocket surgeon]

think MU is keeping the warrior thing as their ace in the hole eyn'a?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

[dw3dw3dw3]

Must of been reading Scoop for article ideas.

[WhiteTrash]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

Imagine that.... money trumps all, even in the 'enlightened' and 'progressive' halls of higher education.

[Pakuni]

Imagine that.... money trumps all, even in the 'enlightened' and 'progressive' halls of higher education.

Particularly in the athletic departments.

[Disco Hippie]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

Fascinating article thanks for posting!  The elitism and snobbery within Northeasten higher education in particular never ceases to amaze me.  I found this quote to be very disturbing:

"The problem, Hoxby and Avery explained, was that many high-achieving low-income students were making self-destructive decisions as high school seniors, applying to local community colleges or nearby public universities rather than the highly selective institutions where their academic records would likely win them admission — and where generous need-based financial aid policies like Harvard's might enable them to earn their degree at a significant discount."

The notion that any student applying to a community college or local state university is making a "self destructive" choice is beyond offensive!   

Don't get me wrong, if some of these students are indeed elite college material they should absolutely be encouraged to apply to those types of schools, but if they choose not to apply to elite schools, and instead choose to apply to, or worse, actually attend, a community college or local state university, they're making a self destructive decision is among the most offensive and elitist things I've ever heard!  Just despicable!   

And I say all this as someone that thinks MU should aim higher themselves but the notion that the pursuit of any higher education is self destructive, well that says a lot.

[WhiteTrash]

Well said Disco Hippie.

[Cheeks]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

Thank you for sharing this.  Enjoyed the read, I thought it might be a bit tilting, but some excellent points of view to ponder especially as a parent about to put his last one into college.

[Disco Hippie]

Racking up useless applications, which cost money to recruit and process only to turn people down, for the sake of making someone feel "special," is anti-intellectual and ethically questionable.

I agree with you completely on this!   What I don't understand is why MU doesn't want to increase their pool of viable and qualified applicants.   The overwhelming majority of applicants to ivy's and their ilk are academically qualified to attend there.  Yes, they receive some lark applications from kids who have no chance, but that's a relatively small percentage and in most cases 80% of the applicant pool for the most elitist of elite institutions meet the academic criteria required and these schools overwhelmingly resort to non academic metrics or what they refer to as intangibles to decide who they accept and who they don't. 

Granted MU is never going to have the same demand that those schools do but if you compare MU to a place like say Fordham University in NYC, they're roughly the same size as MU, a little larger but that's due to their graduate students who comprise close to 40% of their enrollment.  Undergrad enrollment is only marginally more than MU, they're not ranked that much higher than us, yet they have over 40,000 applications and we have 15K?    Even more frustrating, Athletics are a non factor there, and given their location in the philanthropy capital of the U.S, their endowment isn't much more impressive than ours. Other than being in NYC which is certainly a selling point I'm not sure what makes them so much more popular??????

[MUDPT]

Those of you with children college aged, did MU's neighborhood factor at all in their decision?  Obviously, the parents on this board have a different opinion on things then those that didn't attend. I remember hearing a story that MU's enrollment was down in the mid-90s in the Milwaukee newspaper distribution area.  That's where many outside of the Milwaukee area were getting their information about the MU neighborhood.  With the internet, any one can look up stories on anything and maybe that is a part of it too.

I was thinking about this thread last week when I went to the volleyball match here in Madison.  My daughter and I parked a few blocks away from the FieldHouse, walked down Monroe Street.  I was thinking of the Office episode where Darryl tells Michael he lives a "Nerfy life." That's what living in Madison is: "Nerf Life."  I miss the grittiness of Milwaukee and it prepared me for my career more then anything else.  That to me is a big selling point of the school, but not sure how you can sell that to students, who really like fancy dorms and rec centers.

[WhiteTrash]

Thanks everyone. Lot's of good discussion and information being shared.

One question: I read frequently, and have had the inclination to agree with, the sentiment that MU will never be "X", "Y" or "Z" school academically. But I ask, why not? When I attended MU in the early '90s schools like Iowa and Wisconsin were a few of the 'safety' schools for me and my MU friends and schools like Michigan State and Ohio State were not thought of highly at all for undergraduate degrees, but now I see those schools in the 100-50 range in the rankings. If those schools can raise their profile, why not MU?

To be clear, I don't think MU has to move from 80 to 50, but I don't view it as impossible.