How concerning is this?

[Warrior of Law]

I'm not an expert of higher education budgeting and financing, but this is the 1st time I've ever heard of a university trimming staff based on future/demographic changes.  Usually, cuts are reactive to a real-time reduction in enrollment, etc.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2019/09/05/marquette-lays-off-24-faculty-and-staff-leaves-50-positions-unfilled/2225523001/

The data that Dr. Lovell cites is really interesting.  While not directly basketball-related, this appears to be a foundational issue.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

I mentioned this in the other Superbar topic.  "Demographics" is Lovell spin.  Those demographics were well known long before this fall.  He proposed budgets that deficit financed various projects meant to spur enrollment, had pie in the sky projections that haven't panned out, and now this is the result.  They have had to discount way too much to get their classes so the revenue simply isn't there.

It's very concerning and Lovell should be on the hot seat.  The Board has to be asking questions.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Oof. Structural deficits are difficult. Especially in this environment. You can get away with that at a public university because you aren't as tuition dependent, and the "system" can help you out, but its real tough at a private university.

[mu_hilltopper]

Serious question:  If MUBB had remained a national basketball power these past ~7 years, routine top 25 rankings, somewhat-annual trips to the 2nd weekend of March .. do these layoffs happen?

[tower912]

Yes.

[GOO]

Marquette should be planning to accomplish two major items:  (1) down size the number of students - changes are happening in demographics AND a four year college education will be less and less important (we are already seeing this trend) with the ability to more easily assess the ability to do/learn, etc and (2) more scholarships - more generous scholarships - the scholarship arms race has begun and schools that are expensive and don't recruit the best students and offer generous scholarships will continue to slip.  Both of these seem so obvious.

I"ve been saying this for a long time and most have shot it down and say we need to expand or stay large.  They say we have all of these buildings, etc, and you can't just downsize.  Well, change is upon us, get out front or perish.  Online education is coming.  A nice expensive 4 year degree will be like studying the classics at Oxford... a great thing indeed, but not for most or what most will want and seek out. 

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Marquette tuition has skyrocketed over the last 5 yrs

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Marquette should be planning to accomplish two major items:  (1) down size the number of students - changes are happening in demographics AND a four year college education will be less and less important (we are already seeing this trend) with the ability to more easily assess the ability to do/learn, etc and (2) more scholarships - more generous scholarships - the scholarship arms race has begun and schools that are expensive and don't recruit the best students and offer generous scholarships will continue to slip.  Both of these seem so obvious.

I"ve been saying this for a long time and most have shot it down and say we need to expand or stay large.  They say we have all of these buildings, etc, and you can't just downsize.  Well, change is upon us, get out front or perish.  Online education is coming.  A nice expensive 4 year degree will be like studying the classics at Oxford... a great thing indeed, but not for most or what most will want and seek out. 

It may not be a bad idea to downsize, but why do you think a four year college education is less important?  The income gap between those with a four year degree and those without continues to grow.

[Billy Hoyle]

Marquette tuition has skyrocketed over the last 5 yrs

tuition everywhere has.  I was looking at some costs of other Catholic schools (all in, not just tuition) and they ranged from $56K to nearly $69K a year.

[StillAWarrior]

tuition everywhere has.

Not Purdue.  Here's to hoping they can hold off another four years before an increase.

[Warrior of Law]

At least MU is in a position where they could reduce 1/3 of the undergrad enrollment and remain solvent.  I don't see much hope for the smaller, private schools in the Midwest.  There are public UW schools that are shrinking, too.

[dw3dw3dw3]

Tuition is crazy, lots of reasons for that, but people are getting smarter and not going to accept the status quo of getting loans to cover the difference and figure it out later. Who in there right mind would accept going into 200k of debt for a k-12 teaching position these days. My wife was making under 60k with 10 years experience and a masters degree in a suburban district. It would take her 2 lifetimes to pay off that degree, let alone save for retirement/children/etc... I understand as a parent I've prepared and I'm willing to pay for "experience" somewhat, but at a point it just becomes absurd.  There are a tons of professional careers where it's difficult if not impossible to get past 70k-80k in salary.

Pragmatically, I can't figure out why I would pay in the 40-50s for MU vs 16k for a UW-X degree in the right program for my non-academic scholar son. 

[BallBoy]

Marquette should be planning to accomplish two major items:  (1) down size the number of students - changes are happening in demographics AND a four year college education will be less and less important (we are already seeing this trend) with the ability to more easily assess the ability to do/learn, etc and (2) more scholarships - more generous scholarships - the scholarship arms race has begun and schools that are expensive and don't recruit the best students and offer generous scholarships will continue to slip.  Both of these seem so obvious.

I"ve been saying this for a long time and most have shot it down and say we need to expand or stay large.  They say we have all of these buildings, etc, and you can't just downsize.  Well, change is upon us, get out front or perish.  Online education is coming.  A nice expensive 4 year degree will be like studying the classics at Oxford... a great thing indeed, but not for most or what most will want and seek out.

I hope you don't actually want MU to downsize the number of students.  Especially since that is the revenue model that they have.  They should be shifting students and increasing the number of students to an online education.  Directional a lot of this is heading in this direction.  Online class could be sold at a reduced cost.  Regardless, MU needs students to be on campus to build the culture of Marquette.  That network and emotional connection is what MU sells.

Unfortunately, college is going to be the next big bubble.  As online class take hold the fewer limitations of the physical space will mean the fewer universities that are needed.  Harvard can have an "unlimited" class to cover the reduction in  revenue. 

[dgies9156]

This is a really serious concern. It isn't just the demographics (which, by the way, we also went through after the Boomers worked their way through the educational system), it's the intersection of costs and demographics.

Think of it this way. Marquette is competing for quality students with such schools as Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana and Purdue, Michigan and Minnesota. All are good schools with great reputations and their grads tend to be well-equipped for the real world. Even traditionally average universities like Tennessee and other SEC schools are stepping their game up in no small measure to compete for students who traditionally would consider Marquette.

Marquette does great things every day. But at an all-in cost of $60,000 list, the number is scary, especially compared to the price of the above-listed schools. Period. That's about $240,000 for four years, without tuition increases. By contrast, that's about what the cost of educating both of my children has been at State U.

I know Marquette will negotiate rates for students they want. But to go 50 percent off-the-card is unlikely. The challenge then is to somehow explain the value one gets for the incremental cost at Marquette. In other words, what's the value or values arising from a Marquette education that's unique to Marquette. Sell it, guys and gals. Sell it!

[MUfan12]

It's very concerning and Lovell should be on the hot seat.  The Board has to be asking questions.

They're 0-2 in recent Presidential hires. I'm scared to see what they come up with in a potential third act.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

[Boone]

Dgies and dw3d:

I hear ya. I had mixed feelings when son decided to attend Madison, but the prospect of graduating (hopefully) with zero debt from UW, as opposed to $30k from MU made his decision a no-brainer.

[MUfan12]

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

Very well said.

[MU82]

I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

Superb comment, Dr. B.

[GOO]

I have a few comments, but I will wait until this is put on the Superbar board.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

I agree with you.  But how are you planning to pay for this?  Those students cost more.  They take more financial aid to get to campus and they place a heavier burden on services such as your academic support.  Furthermore these students don't retain from year to year at the same level, which means you have to recruit even more students to fill your class.  And we live in an era where federal financial aid programs have been cut drastically and turned into loans.

So you are either going to have to raise more money in scholarships to support these students, and/or recruit more students that will pay more than it costs to educate them.  This is I think exactly where Marquette is right now. 

[Lennys Tap]

I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

Home run, Doc.

[moomoo]

I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

Not sure about that, Doc.

You can look at schools like Notre Dame, which was also historically considered a "blue-collar" school, and they are now considered elite.  Many Catholic colleges were founded because our religion was heavily discriminated against (look at College of the Holy Cross, as another example of a "blue collar" school which is now considered elite).

I think Marquette investing heavily and striving to be better with its academic requirements is a worthy cause and a smart move.

But I completely agree with your suggestion that Marquette should never lose its focus on helping those who may need help, whether it's immigrant families or under served communities.

I think a balance can be achieved, where the academic reputation and resources continue to improve (and therefore become more interesting to academic over achievers) while still never forgetting and adhering to the original foundation and principles of yesteryear.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

+1 On this -- to the how to pay for it question, innovation is needed to reduce the cost to deliver a bachelors degree .  This has to be a lever and could be an area MU can also lead.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not sure about that, Doc.

You can look at schools like Notre Dame, which was also historically considered a "blue-collar" school, and they are now considered elite.  Many Catholic colleges were founded because our religion was heavily discriminated against (look at College of the Holy Cross, as another example of a "blue collar" school which is now considered elite).

I think Marquette investing heavily and striving to be better with its academic requirements is a worthy cause and a smart move.

But I completely agree with your suggestion that Marquette should never lose its focus on helping those who may need help, whether it's immigrant families or under served communities.

I think a balance can be achieved, where the academic reputation and resources continue to improve (and therefore become more interesting to academic over achievers) while still never forgetting and adhering to the original foundation and principles of yesteryear.

I think that's exactly what they are trying to do.  And it's hard to blame Lovell & Co for betting on themselves, but deficit financing is a hard way to do it.  It's worked for Marquette in the past though.  This is nothing compared to what was facing the DiUlio administration in the mid-90s, but it's hard to imagine what Marquette would have turned into without the Campus Circle project.