How concerning is this?

[Cheeks]

Well, that was the business model that has worked in most universities for a generation or two.  And now it isn't.  So doing what we have been doing means more death by 1000 papercuts.

I will take all the investments MU has made in the elite programs and move them into rediscovering our mission. Unlike many of us who had college educated role models in our households, these kids might not have one. It takes different programs.

I will give you a real life example I helped with volunteer hours so I am not just blowing smoke.  A long-time Catholic high school with a strong legacy alumni base was experiencing shrinking enrollment, to the point where they were going to close. They saw Catholic feeder schools around them closing.  The suburb was transitioning towards working class Hispanic who didn't go to private schools. They also saw the wealthier Catholic schools in newer suburbs growing. They didn't know what to do.

I did what any of us would do in business--I analyzed it. Their local market share had dropped with the demographic shift. We challenged the institutional biases through other research donated by my suppliers . 

What we found was these Hispanic families would love to send their kids there as they were strongly Catholic and aspirational for their kids, but they didn't even think it was possible because of tuition costs or that they felt not wanted as no one had ever talked to them. The school, comprised of almost all white upper middle class families/alums didn't even know how to talk to them.

So, the school was faced with closing or doing something different.  They engaged their strongest asset: Their Alumni, who were mostly unaware of the situation. Instead of recruiting at Catholic schools, they recruited at churches and Hispanic outreach events. They created scholarship funds via a capital drive.  Legacy families who were getting multi-kid discounts refused them so that need based kids could receive bigger scholarships.  Someone else donated computers as they found having a computer at home was a big thing--so the school offered one for free. Apathetic alumni volunteered as mentors and role models to these first generation kids. They instituted an assimilation program that if kids and parents completed, they would get a $1000 tuition grant. They also discovered odd things like Hispanic parents were afraid of the financial aid forms as "the government could trace" them...which led to a positive for the Catholic school as this wasn't a government institution. Word of mouth spread.

Ten years later.  The school is flourishing.  Instead of 100% white, it is 27% minority and growing. 76% get financial aid. They just built a new multi-million Heath Science center and expanded their AP offerings.  And heaven forbid, 100% of their kids go on to college. Such elitism.

Doc, feels like we are doing this already.

[Cheeks]

C is a split adjusted $6.50. Stock is a dog. If you loaded up on that you missed the ride in the stock market since March 2009.

I loaded up and sold.  Bought it for next to nothing.  Worked out well. 

[forgetful]

I agree with you.  But how are you planning to pay for this?  Those students cost more.  They take more financial aid to get to campus and they place a heavier burden on services such as your academic support.  Furthermore these students don't retain from year to year at the same level, which means you have to recruit even more students to fill your class.  And we live in an era where federal financial aid programs have been cut drastically and turned into loans.

So you are either going to have to raise more money in scholarships to support these students, and/or recruit more students that will pay more than it costs to educate them.  This is I think exactly where Marquette is right now.

It is not an either or. You can go to a modified continuing ed model. You have the regular curriculum for direct admission and enrollment. Those can have as high of standards as possible. It is your normal on campus, intensive, low student-faculty ratio, that makes an MU education more valuable and more rigorous than the state schools.

You accomplish the mission, by having a separate degree track for 1st generation students or atypical age enrollees that would not meet the normal admission standards. They are admitted to an online-based curriculum. Same courses in terms of content (very easy to record all the lectures for your main curriculum courses during a regular semester so they can be available online), but testing is done through certified testing services. These students lose the 1 on 1 value, and some of the intensiveness of the courses, but can then get a degree at their own pace.

The latter can be deeply discounted as a pay per credit hour model. That way they can service these students, while not jeopardizing the rigor and rankings of the MU brand.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

Doc, Marquette has never had a more diverse student body. They are taking in more and more first generation college students. They are well on mission. You seem to have this idea that students who "break down social barriers" can't also be elite academically. Why?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Doc, Marquette has never had a more diverse student body. They are taking in more and more first generation college students. They are well on mission. You seem to have this idea that students who "break down social barriers" can't also be elite academically. Why?

What I am against is using elitism as an electric fence barrier to inclusion and diversity. Tomorrow's students and their needs will be very different and will require a very different model.  Yes, MU is starting to pivot in how they recruit the last few years...yet they are struggling on the university side because they are trying to pivot another way at the same time to something it isn't.  As I said, MU has lost its way a bit..although the way is right in front of them. 

It's going to be a rough five years. MU has been down this elite path before under DiUlio and Pilarz. It took Bobby Wild to save the University twice. I like Lovell and his ideas, but he has a lot of ideas but not the budget or ability to implement them with effect. 

[mu_hilltopper]

It's going to be a rough five years.

Explain?

[Disco Hippie]

Is there a reason this thread isn't in Superbar?  In any case, it's somewhat concerning and sad to see the university have to resort to these measures and show long time, presumably dedicated faculty and employees the door, but I take comfort that MU fared quite well in the WSJ College rankings that were released the other day and believe they are reasonably well positioned moving forward. WSJ unfortunately is behind a subscription wall but scoopers who are Journal subscribers can access them.   

This is a really important thread and it seems to me MU is going through somewhat of an identity crisis.  We all care a great deal about our mutual alma-mater and having read through this carefully, there isn't a single post I disagree with.  Folks on both sides of the future direction of the university make valid points.  I've been posting on this topic for years so here's my take as a very proud MU alum but also as a native east coaster who headed home after graduation and has historically had a POV that's very different than the majority of scoopers:

MU must remain true to it's Jesuit mission and find ways to make higher education more accessible to low income and first generation students, but it seems to me they would be able to provide more meaningful assistance to those qualified underprivileged students who truly need it if they had a higher percentage of full pay or close to full pay families.  Both ND, where my younger brother attended, and BC, (run by DiUlio's #2 at MU from the 90's for last 23 years) are notoriously stingy with aid and a have a lot of students from families that can afford to pay full tuition.  It may not be high on a percentage basis, but my guess is even if only 15% of their students get no aid whatsoever, that's probably an extraordinarily high percentage compared to most other schools.  Although ND and BC are notoriously stingy with aid for chattering upper middle class families, they're very generous with aid for their students who really need it.  Granted having a 13B and 3B endowment respectively helps tremendously, and MU obviously can't compete with that, but then why has MU doubled down and focused recruiting relentlessly on students from families who they know can't afford virtually any tuition whatsoever before they've even identified who they are?

Dr. Blackheart's post in particular about the high school's turnaround was very intriguing but given the cost differential between catholic/private secondary/high school vs college I'm not sure the same approach can be replicated for MU.  What MU could do is make an effort to recruit more at public high schools in well to do zip codes on the coasts and that could have a significant effect.   The amount of families on the east coast who forgo their excellent state flagships in favor of paying out of state tuition at places like UW Madison, Miami of Ohio, the University of South Carolina, Clemson, UT Austin, UCLA, etc, is absolutely staggering.  MU could easily compete with some of these schools if they wanted to, they just don't make an effort and it's absolutely mind boggling.   It seems to me if MU got even a small number of these types of students it would have a noticeable (if not meaningful) impact on their financial position and enable them to remain true to their mission and provide even more help to those students who truly need it.

Thoughts?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Serious question:  If MUBB had remained a national basketball power these past ~7 years, routine top 25 rankings, somewhat-annual trips to the 2nd weekend of March .. do these layoffs happen?

10-12% bump in applicants if F4.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/cartercoudriet/2018/04/03/how-hoops-success-helps-colleges-get-applicants/amp/

[Cheeks]

10-12% bump in applicants if F4.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/cartercoudriet/2018/04/03/how-hoops-success-helps-colleges-get-applicants/amp/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/sports/ncaa-applicants/

[Cheeks]

Serious question:  If MUBB had remained a national basketball power these past ~7 years, routine top 25 rankings, somewhat-annual trips to the 2nd weekend of March .. do these layoffs happen?

Other serious question, how does consistent negative coverage of school (sexual assaults, etc) impact things, especially female perspective students?

No doubt athletics can benefit (Flutie Effect), and plenty of examples where little to no impact, too.  A combination of factors, but negative pub also can be a detriment, too.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Other serious question, how does consistent negative coverage of school (sexual assaults, etc) impact things, especially female perspective students?

No doubt athletics can benefit (Flutie Effect), and plenty of examples where little to no impact, too.  A combination of factors, but negative pub also can be a detriment, too.

Michigan State's applications grew quite a bit this past year.  Would the number of applications due to their Final 4 appearance have been even higher if not for their multiple criminal offenses? 

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/record-applications-propel-msu-incoming-class/

[79Warrior]

I loaded up and sold.  Bought it for next to nothing.  Worked out well.

Stock did absolutely nothing. What did you load up on. Financials have been a sh## for years with C the poster child for garbage.

[Billy Hoyle]

Michigan State's applications grew quite a bit this past year.  Would the number of applications due to their Final 4 appearance have been even higher if not for their multiple criminal offenses? 

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/record-applications-propel-msu-incoming-class/

They grew compared to the previous year, where they bottomed out. Also, this past year was MSU’s first using the Common App.  They also lowered their admission requirements.

Also, MSU being a public, flagship university is not as affected positively by athletic success as a private school. Kids in MI are going to apply to MSU and UM anyway.

https://wwmt.com/news/on-point/msu-applications-down-following-nassar-scandal-spartans-move-to-common-app

[Dr. Blackheart]

They grew compared to the previous year, where they bottomed out. Also, this past year was MSU’s first using the Common App.  They also lowered their admission requirements.

Also, MSU being a public, flagship university is not as affected positively by athletic success as a private school. Kids in MI are going to apply to MSU and UM anyway.

https://wwmt.com/news/on-point/msu-applications-down-following-nassar-scandal-spartans-move-to-common-app

Maybe I reacted to the headline that quoted “record applications”.  Thanks for the background. None-the-less, despite the criminal element and the disgusting university and sports powers that be who enabled it, the positive reach of winning seemingly outweighs the negative. Hard to believe Izzo still has a job...but that is the world of the NCAA. I wouldn’t call him a role model, friend or mentor.

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

[Class71]

I mentioned this in the other Superbar topic.  "Demographics" is Lovell spin.  Those demographics were well known long before this fall.  He proposed budgets that deficit financed various projects meant to spur enrollment, had pie in the sky projections that haven't panned out, and now this is the result.  They have had to discount way too much to get their classes so the revenue simply isn't there.

It's very concerning and Lovell should be on the hot seat.  The Board has to be asking questions.

Interesting a president addressing a well recognized decline in birth rates that will decrease the future pool of students should be on the hot seat for taking proactive corrective steps? Sounds like good management.

[Cheeks]

Michigan State's applications grew quite a bit this past year.  Would the number of applications due to their Final 4 appearance have been even higher if not for their multiple criminal offenses? 

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/record-applications-propel-msu-incoming-class/

According to ESPN the opposite happened

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/25430618/applications-michigan-state-university-drop-larry-nassar-sexual-assault-scandals-espn-lines

Gotta love the media

[Pakuni]

MSU's applications grew from 2018 to 2019 because the school for the first time accepted applications through a system that allows students to apply to multiple schools at the same time.

Applications dropped significantly from 2017 to 2018, as ESPN accurately reported, citing data provided by MSU.

And again, someone blames "the media" for being unable to read and/or accurately describe the stories he links here.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Well, that was the business model that has worked in most universities for a generation or two.  And now it isn't.  So doing what we have been doing means more death by 1000 papercuts.

I will take all the investments MU has made in the elite programs and move them into rediscovering our mission. Unlike many of us who had college educated role models in our households, these kids might not have one. It takes different programs.

I will give you a real life example I helped with volunteer hours so I am not just blowing smoke.  A long-time Catholic high school with a strong legacy alumni base was experiencing shrinking enrollment, to the point where they were going to close. They saw Catholic feeder schools around them closing.  The suburb was transitioning towards working class Hispanic who didn't go to private schools. They also saw the wealthier Catholic schools in newer suburbs growing. They didn't know what to do.

I did what any of us would do in business--I analyzed it. Their local market share had dropped with the demographic shift. We challenged the institutional biases through other research donated by my suppliers . 

What we found was these Hispanic families would love to send their kids there as they were strongly Catholic and aspirational for their kids, but they didn't even think it was possible because of tuition costs or that they felt not wanted as no one had ever talked to them. The school, comprised of almost all white upper middle class families/alums didn't even know how to talk to them.

So, the school was faced with closing or doing something different.  They engaged their strongest asset: Their Alumni, who were mostly unaware of the situation. Instead of recruiting at Catholic schools, they recruited at churches and Hispanic outreach events. They created scholarship funds via a capital drive.  Legacy families who were getting multi-kid discounts refused them so that need based kids could receive bigger scholarships.  Someone else donated computers as they found having a computer at home was a big thing--so the school offered one for free. Apathetic alumni volunteered as mentors and role models to these first generation kids. They instituted an assimilation program that if kids and parents completed, they would get a $1000 tuition grant. They also discovered odd things like Hispanic parents were afraid of the financial aid forms as "the government could trace" them...which led to a positive for the Catholic school as this wasn't a government institution. Word of mouth spread.

Ten years later.  The school is flourishing.  Instead of 100% white, it is 27% minority and growing. 76% get financial aid. They just built a new multi-million Heath Science center and expanded their AP offerings.  And heaven forbid, 100% of their kids go on to college. Such elitism.

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong that Marquette shouldn't look at doing more to make it accessible to people who appreciate its mission.  But it still has to be paid for.  And the costs are much higher than in high school.

That being said, it is likely a more realistic goal than trying to be the next Georgetown.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

MSU's applications grew from 2018 to 2019 because the school for the first time accepted applications through a system that allows students to apply to multiple schools at the same time.

Applications dropped significantly from 2017 to 2018, as ESPN accurately reported, citing data provided by MSU.

And again, someone blames "the media" for being unable to read and/or accurately describe the stories he links here.

LOL.

[Warrior of Law]

This is a good point. The President is being proactive about a genuine crisis unfolding.

Personally, I have a few MU degrees, STH, decent income, and even I can't justify the overwhelming expense for a MU undergrad degree for my own kids.

Interesting a president addressing a well recognized decline in birth rates that will decrease the future pool of students should be on the hot seat for taking proactive corrective steps? Sounds like good management.

[Pakuni]

This is a really interesting and I;m by no means an expert on any of this.
But I do have a question specific to Dr. B's exhortation that MU return to its roots of serving first-generation and less privileged students. (Maybe "return to its roots" isn't the correct phrase, as I'm not sure they really left it. How about "refocus?")

Anyhow, I'm wondering whether by doing, Marquette would be actively shrinking its application pool rather than expanding it. We already know that there will be fewer college-age students out there due to declining birth rates. We also know that as more and more people out there attain college degrees (34 percent of the population today, compared to 22 percent in 1970 and 28 percent in 1990), there will be fewer first-generation students out there.
So, is focusing on a shrinking subset of a shrinking population a sensible decision?

I don't know the answer, and perhaps I'm reading the situation all wrong, but it's what comes to mind when we talk about this.

Another thought ... Disco suggests MU needs to find more students who can pay full price (like at ND), which would then allow more financial flexibility to recruit less privileged students. That sounds great, but I';m not sure MU has the academic reputation/standing to do that. Parents are willing to pay full boat at Notre Dame because it's Notre Dame. But I'm not sure nearly as many parents will pay full boat for Marquette when, say, a Loyola, Chicago or Miami of Ohio is offering $15-20K in financial assistance.

[dgies9156]

Yep.

Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.

At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous  scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.

Brother Gooooo, I have mixed emotions about your posts.

On the positive, you did what was right for your daughters, as I did with my children. I'm happy for the two of them and the UofM is a great school. Mizzou's J program has been good forever.

But, I think Marquette's challenge is to "sell it." If you charge more and your competition has public subsidies, what do you offer that the large state schools don't. From a large urban location (which is appealing to some, not to others), a Catholic focus and lots of cultural opportunities in your front yard, to a great education, smaller class sizes and alumni who have made a difference in the world, Marquette has to tell the story.

Oh, and there's that basketball team!

As an alum and one who really believed in Marquette (and what it did for me), I promised my children that if either could do Marquette work, wanted to go there and applied, I'd find a way to make it happen. Period. And I meant it! Neither went to Marquette because they needed and wanted things Marquette didn't offer. But the place is really special and I'll say it again, you have to sell it.

[asdfasdf]

What are the current standards for admission at Marquette? I know the admission standards have gotten more stringent since I enrolled in '01, but are they really that much higher? I would think the barrier for even a decent high school student is cost, not academics.

[WhiteTrash]

Hard to believe Izzo still has a job...but that is the world of the NCAA. I wouldn’t call him a role model, friend or mentor.

If you ever listen to Izzo, he sounds like a 'dumb jock' or a 1970's high school gym teacher. The man can coach basketball, no doubt, but I don't think he could ever be mistaken for an intelligent man. MSU values basketball over ethics and women's safety, that is why he still employed.

I was blessed to have a daughter who could attend any school she wanted except maybe the top 20 schools but I told her I would not pay for either Baylor or MSU (MSU was never a consideration due to their academics). I could not justify knowingly putting my daughter at risk at those two institutions.

Sexual assaults can happen at any school but Baylor's and MSU's handling of them is disgusting and criminal.

[4everwarriors]

Is there a reason this thread isn't in Superbar?  In any case, it's somewhat concerning and sad to see the university have to resort to these measures and show long time, presumably dedicated faculty and employees the door, but I take comfort that MU fared quite well in the WSJ College rankings that were released the other day and believe they are reasonably well positioned moving forward. WSJ unfortunately is behind a subscription wall but scoopers who are Journal subscribers can access them.   

This is a really important thread and it seems to me MU is going through somewhat of an identity crisis.  We all care a great deal about our mutual alma-mater and having read through this carefully, there isn't a single post I disagree with.  Folks on both sides of the future direction of the university make valid points.  I've been posting on this topic for years so here's my take as a very proud MU alum but also as a native east coaster who headed home after graduation and has historically had a POV that's very different than the majority of scoopers:

MU must remain true to it's Jesuit mission and find ways to make higher education more accessible to low income and first generation students, but it seems to me they would be able to provide more meaningful assistance to those qualified underprivileged students who truly need it if they had a higher percentage of full pay or close to full pay families.  Both ND, where my younger brother attended, and BC, (run by DiUlio's #2 at MU from the 90's for last 23 years) are notoriously stingy with aid and a have a lot of students from families that can afford to pay full tuition.  It may not be high on a percentage basis, but my guess is even if only 15% of their students get no aid whatsoever, that's probably an extraordinarily high percentage compared to most other schools.  Although ND and BC are notoriously stingy with aid for chattering upper middle class families, they're very generous with aid for their students who really need it.  Granted having a 13B and 3B endowment respectively helps tremendously, and MU obviously can't compete with that, but then why has MU doubled down and focused recruiting relentlessly on students from families who they know can't afford virtually any tuition whatsoever before they've even identified who they are?

Dr. Blackheart's post in particular about the high school's turnaround was very intriguing but given the cost differential between catholic/private secondary/high school vs college I'm not sure the same approach can be replicated for MU.  What MU could do is make an effort to recruit more at public high schools in well to do zip codes on the coasts and that could have a significant effect.   The amount of families on the east coast who forgo their excellent state flagships in favor of paying out of state tuition at places like UW Madison, Miami of Ohio, the University of South Carolina, Clemson, UT Austin, UCLA, etc, is absolutely staggering.  MU could easily compete with some of these schools if they wanted to, they just don't make an effort and it's absolutely mind boggling.   It seems to me if MU got even a small number of these types of students it would have a noticeable (if not meaningful) impact on their financial position and enable them to remain true to their mission and provide even more help to those students who truly need it.

Thoughts?

The one demographic of college bound students that is rising is the Latino/Hispanic community. Again, largely a catholic population. So, it makes sense for MU to target this group. However, first generation and lower income groups make up a big segment of this targeted pool. Is this the right strategy? The financial aid packages will need to reflect MU's commitment.
ND, Georgetown, and BC are significantly more select with their applicant pool. All the other catholic schools line up quite a ways behind them. As stated before, Marquette is "middle of the road" and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. Apparently, Dr. Lovell realizes and is being proactive to position MU for the future.