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Author Topic: How concerning is this?  (Read 42387 times)

Boone

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2019, 02:26:13 PM »
MU really needs to give up the laughable notion that they’re on Georgetown’s academic level. Most of the masked GPAs and ACT scores I saw on Naviance.com from the students MU admitted in my son’s high school class would never have been met GU’s standards. Not even close
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 02:29:27 PM by Boone »

Goose

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2019, 02:31:39 PM »
Dr. B

A+++ post.

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2019, 02:32:07 PM »
I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

Some good points, but plenty to disagree with too.  What our wheelhouse is will lead to a poorer endowment.

What you described as what we were was a different world, different costs, etc.  I may be understanding you incorrectly, but it sounds like you are saying broaden the acceptance, potentially lower standards (I said potentially before everyone freaks out)....are you not setting up MU as just an everyday state school?

When you do that, you better be prepared to lower the cost, and when you do that you will lose valuable profs, and then when you do that you cycle down in other areas.

So though I acknowledge your points and they are valid in a world of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, I’m not sure going back there does anything but accelerate things because costs for college have increased so much, so have salaries and all the trappings that went with those cost increases.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2019, 02:32:11 PM »
MU really needs to give up the laughable notion that they’re on Georgetown’s academic level. Most of the masked GPAs and ACT scores I saw on Naviance.com from the students MU admitted in my son’s class would never have been met GU’s standards. Not even close

Marquette compares itself to 22 "referent institutions," of which Georgetown is one.  However they clearly state that "The group is aspirational by design, with 17 of the 22 schools ranking higher than Marquette in the U.S. News and World Report Best National Universities ranking."

So why they do *compare* themselves to Georgetown, I doubt anyone seriously considers Marquette on the same academic level as Georgetown.
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brewcity77

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2019, 02:33:15 PM »
I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

I mostly agree, but the part about the so-called minority becoming the majority is not true. There is no single "minority" class and demographically, when white Americans fall below 50%, it will simply represent a change where everyone is a minority because there will no longer be any demographic majority.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2019, 02:33:45 PM »
Some good points, but plenty to disagree with too.  What our wheelhouse is will lead to a poorer endowment.


It's actually the opposite.  Marquette's relatively small endowment prevents the institution from investing more in these types of programs.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2019, 02:39:36 PM »
Generally speaking it looks like the guys from the 70’s that are stuck there on hoops are also in same situation with the school’s direction.  Not surprising and I don’t say that negatively.  Just a different POV.

I just feel the world is massively different now and are you factoring that in?  Back in the day when MU was only 2X or 3X the cost has changed.  Now 5x bs some places.  So unless you are prepared to lower the standards, which is what I think will happen, feels like a bad strategy.

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2019, 02:44:07 PM »
I mostly agree, but the part about the so-called minority becoming the majority is not true. There is no single "minority" class and demographically, when white Americans fall below 50%, it will simply represent a change where everyone is a minority because there will no longer be any demographic majority.

But who will have privilege then?   
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2019, 02:48:42 PM »

It's actually the opposite.  Marquette's relatively small endowment prevents the institution from investing more in these types of programs.

My point is if you lower the standards and take just anyone, they go on to get just any jobs and your endowment isn’t going to grow.  It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

There is a reason why most schools with strong endowments tend to be better academic institutions.  Not sure why I see the rush to lower our academic pursuits, other than some here thinking it will satiate their basketball fix and allow more players to get in....which is insane in my opinion, but I have heard this argument before...UCLA alum the latest crying about it.

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

brewcity77

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2019, 03:00:19 PM »
But who will have privilege then?

The same people that do now. One can be both privileged and part of a minority. But please, do bring your victimhood to every thread.
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GooooMarquette

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2019, 03:05:00 PM »

Pragmatically, I can't figure out why I would pay in the 40-50s for MU vs 16k for a UW-X degree in the right program for my non-academic scholar son.


Yep.

Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.

At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous  scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2019, 03:14:23 PM »
The same people that do now. One can be both privileged and part of a minority. But please, do bring your victimhood to every thread.

I don’t have it nor an ounce of guilt you try to shove down people’s throats.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2019, 03:22:37 PM »
Yep.

Both daughters got a $16k/year scholarship offer from MU, but even with that, Marquette couldn’t compete with good state schools. D1 went to U of MN-Twin Cities (our in-state school), and D2 went to Mizzou for Journalism. Both got educations as good as or better than they would have gotten at MU, and saved tens of thousands of dollars.

At this point I would only suggest a kid go to a private school if they had a ginormous  scholarship, or if there was some truly unique or superior program at the private school.

My son wanted to escape California, he had multiple options in private and public schools.  MU put a nice package together and he chose that even over my reservations.  For him it was size of school, urban environment, etc.  Some of his other alternatives were bigger and cheaper, huge campus’ that didn’t appeal.  Different strokes for different folks.

The big problem I see is MU can never compete on price.  Just no way.  To do so would mean gutting the school staff, programs, etc....doing that would devalue the institution.  Therefore your options are either to have highly specialized programs that draw students because of the uniqueness of them, take up the academics to a higher level to justify the cost and hopefully the return on the back end, or some combination of solutions. 

When I had dinner with about 10 students in the Spring on campus there were some striking comments.  One was the academic level of their peers.  They said some were off the charts smart, while there were some that they couldn’t believe were accepted at all.  The latter cohort makes me wonder if they were filling to a number, or just taking a chance on some kids.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

tower912

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2019, 03:24:32 PM »
Students said the exact same thing when we were there.  If they didn't, they weren't paying attention.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2019, 03:28:55 PM »
Students said the exact same thing when we were there.  If they didn't, they weren't paying attention.

I agree, and back then the standards were average.  Many alums that were accepted back in our day would not be today, which is why it surprised me to hear now.  I fully expected it back in the 80’s, but with the improvements made academically I was surprised to hear it as much.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2019, 03:42:12 PM »
I agree, and back then the standards were average.  Many alums that were accepted back in our day would not be today, which is why it surprised me to hear now.  I fully expected it back in the 80’s, but with the improvements made academically I was surprised to hear it as much.

Need the rich, dumb (dare I say privileged??) kids that can pay full freight to keep the cash flow up.

D'Lo Brown

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2019, 03:49:16 PM »
Industries that experience bubbles relative to value/etc, tend to experience a burst. That applies across the board, not just to MU. The bubble phenomenon exists at state schools, too, where money has been spent on truly frivolous things.

Key industries with the ability to take down an entire economy tend to be propped up in their time of need, regardless of how far gone the individual players strayed from their original mission, or how much money they killed. MU is an individual school, but the feds won't allow the entire university system to collapse under its own weight. Anyone that believes that also likely has 20 years worth of food in a fallout shelter somewhere.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2019, 03:50:14 PM »
nm
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 03:51:47 PM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
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Cheeks

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2019, 03:56:47 PM »
Industries that experience bubbles relative to value/etc, tend to experience a burst. That applies across the board, not just to MU. The bubble phenomenon exists at state schools, too, where money has been spent on truly frivolous things.

Key industries with the ability to take down an entire economy tend to be propped up in their time of need, regardless of how far gone the individual players strayed from their original mission, or how much money they killed. MU is an individual school, but the feds won't allow the entire university system to collapse under its own weight. Anyone that believes that also likely has 20 years worth of food in a fallout shelter somewhere.

 One of the reasons I loaded up on Citi during the financial crisis because the gov’t wasn’t going to let them fail.  Same for GM.  MU doesn’t have that fallback or a million system alumni begging the state or feds to keep it solvent like a state system does. (UC, UW, SUNY). 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

brewcity77

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2019, 04:02:05 PM »
I don’t have it nor an ounce of guilt you try to shove down people’s throats.

Oh is that why you keep bringing it up in various threads?  ::) ;D
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2019, 04:21:16 PM »

I agree with you.  But how are you planning to pay for this?  Those students cost more.  They take more financial aid to get to campus and they place a heavier burden on services such as your academic support.  Furthermore these students don't retain from year to year at the same level, which means you have to recruit even more students to fill your class.  And we live in an era where federal financial aid programs have been cut drastically and turned into loans.

So you are either going to have to raise more money in scholarships to support these students, and/or recruit more students that will pay more than it costs to educate them.  This is I think exactly where Marquette is right now.

Well, that was the business model that has worked in most universities for a generation or two.  And now it isn't.  So doing what we have been doing means more death by 1000 papercuts.

I will take all the investments MU has made in the elite programs and move them into rediscovering our mission. Unlike many of us who had college educated role models in our households, these kids might not have one. It takes different programs.

I will give you a real life example I helped with volunteer hours so I am not just blowing smoke.  A long-time Catholic high school with a strong legacy alumni base was experiencing shrinking enrollment, to the point where they were going to close. They saw Catholic feeder schools around them closing.  The suburb was transitioning towards working class Hispanic who didn't go to private schools. They also saw the wealthier Catholic schools in newer suburbs growing. They didn't know what to do.

I did what any of us would do in business--I analyzed it. Their local market share had dropped with the demographic shift. We challenged the institutional biases through other research donated by my suppliers . 

What we found was these Hispanic families would love to send their kids there as they were strongly Catholic and aspirational for their kids, but they didn't even think it was possible because of tuition costs or that they felt not wanted as no one had ever talked to them. The school, comprised of almost all white upper middle class families/alums didn't even know how to talk to them.

So, the school was faced with closing or doing something different.  They engaged their strongest asset: Their Alumni, who were mostly unaware of the situation. Instead of recruiting at Catholic schools, they recruited at churches and Hispanic outreach events. They created scholarship funds via a capital drive.  Legacy families who were getting multi-kid discounts refused them so that need based kids could receive bigger scholarships.  Someone else donated computers as they found having a computer at home was a big thing--so the school offered one for free. Apathetic alumni volunteered as mentors and role models to these first generation kids. They instituted an assimilation program that if kids and parents completed, they would get a $1000 tuition grant. They also discovered odd things like Hispanic parents were afraid of the financial aid forms as "the government could trace" them...which led to a positive for the Catholic school as this wasn't a government institution. Word of mouth spread.

Ten years later.  The school is flourishing.  Instead of 100% white, it is 27% minority and growing. 76% get financial aid. They just built a new multi-million Heath Science center and expanded their AP offerings.  And heaven forbid, 100% of their kids go on to college. Such elitism.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 04:27:18 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

79Warrior

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2019, 04:41:06 PM »
One of the reasons I loaded up on Citi during the financial crisis because the gov’t wasn’t going to let them fail.  Same for GM.  MU doesn’t have that fallback or a million system alumni begging the state or feds to keep it solvent like a state system does. (UC, UW, SUNY).

C is a split adjusted $6.50. Stock is a dog. If you loaded up on that you missed the ride in the stock market since March 2009.

GooooMarquette

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2019, 05:12:29 PM »

My son wanted to escape California, he had multiple options in private and public schools.  MU put a nice package together and he chose that even over my reservations.  For him it was size of school, urban environment, etc.  Some of his other alternatives were bigger and cheaper, huge campus’ that didn’t appeal.  Different strokes for different folks.



Yeah, things like that are always wild cards. If a person loves a place and alternatives just don't fit the bill, they'll go regardless.

My older daughter actually preferred the larger campus at U of MN, so it probably would have taken a free ride (or close) to get her to MU.

My younger daughter loved the size and urban location of MU, and it killed her to say no. But Mizzou's J-school is awfully good, and then Mizzou surprised her with a nice scholarship. She never expected that from a state school in another state, especially one with such a well-known program. In the end, she ended up paying about what in-state tuition would have cost for us.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2019, 06:38:42 PM »

When I had dinner with about 10 students in the Spring on campus there were some striking comments.  One was the academic level of their peers.  They said some were off the charts smart, while there were some that they couldn’t believe were accepted at all.  The latter cohort makes me wonder if they were filling to a number, or just taking a chance on some kids.

MU is a tuition-driven institution and therefore it is incumbent to meet admissions goals. Standards are going to be higher for early applicants but as you move into April and May and the schools see the number of acceptances of admission they're going to get desperate and start making a push to other students who were either waitlisted or make a push to people with lower qualifications than were contacted based on College Board info.

Retention also becomes a big issue - can kids and parents justify the costs of continuing?
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Hards Alumni

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Re: How concerning is this?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2019, 06:44:09 PM »
I have said this before, but the Millennials are the most educated generation in the history of earth. This comes from the GI Bill after WWII where Boomer parents who returned had access to college, and that set the expectation that their Boomer kids, both male and female should too. And then, this led to the expectation that their kids (Millennials) should also go.

However, because of free trade and the opportunity of the US economy, immigration has again changed the demographic dynamics where the so called US minority will soon be the majority.  More and more, any college-aged students will be first generation.  Guess what?  That has historically been MU's wheelhouse.

Instead, we have discussions about higher scores and standards, limiting or no JUCOs, need to term ourselves "elite" to attract East Coasters, raising tuition to cover, have to be like ND or Georgetown, get rid of the FFP, etc. That is not our wheelhouse...and the cracks are showing.

This is the school that first took women, was the genesis of Early Start and Peace Corps programs, made service hours mandatory, and took in cracked sidewalks kids who played disciplined ball under a coach who used it to break down social barriers.  We have lost our way people.

This guy fox.

 

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