What type of player does MU want with the last 4 scholarships?

[pbiflyer]

3 5 star players and a former 5 star transfer to balance out the class. Anything less is complete and utter failure.

[WarriorFan]

Basically the team needs a 6'9" guy with great handles who can run the offense, shoot high volume from 3 and make 40%, take his guy off the dribble, rebound well, be unselfish, lead the team, be an academic all-american, average at least 10/10/5 as a freshman and stay for 4 years.

[Dr. Blackheart]

What I would want is to recruit to what the program goal is. And I think that is what is missing in this discussion.

Currently, the goal "to compete for championships".  To me, that is to make the NIT or NCAA.  That is where the program is at. A mixture of two, three or four stars.

Win the Big East. Four stars

Compete for the National Championship.  Four and Five stars.

It has to build. Wojo seems to be moving to Point B with this class...and to me, the current roster.  When I hear fourth or fifth (or even sixth) in the Big East for this year's team, I shake my head if that is the expectation. 

That said, that was what Wojo was hired for:  To compete for championships.  I think we are at Point B so that is four stars. So my expectation is this class is a balance of four stars at the key positions they are replacing.  Halfway home.

[wadesworld]

What I would want is to recruit to what the program goal is. And I think that is what is missing in this discussion.

Currently, the goal "to compete for championships".  To me, that is to make the NIT or NCAA.  That is where the program is at. A mixture of two, three or four stars.

Win the Big East. Four stars

Compete for the National Championship.  Four and Five stars.

It has to build. Wojo seems to be moving to Point B with this class...and to me, the current roster.  When I hear fourth or fifth (or even sixth) in the Big East for this year's team, I shake my head if that is the expectation. 

That said, that was what Wojo was hired for:  To compete for championships.  I think we are at Point B so that is four stars. So my expectation is this class is a balance of four stars at the key positions they are replacing.  Halfway home.

Regarding the bolded are you referring to the stars of recruits Wojo has brought in and has on his roster?  So far, not including transfers, Wojo has signed more five star prospects than he has two star prospects.  1 five star, 10 four stars, 7 three stars, 0 two stars, according to 247's system.

I think the expectation for Wojo is to be a threat to win the Big East every year, to be in the NCAA Tournament every year (or dang near it), and to have a real chance to make a second weekend run most years, with an occasional chance at a Final Four if things break right.  A lot of Scoopers seem to think the administration only wants choir boys and mild success and nothing else matters, but I don't think that's the case at all.  I think the administration knew Wojo was walking into a mess and gave him time to lay the groundwork.  Last year was the expectation.  Threat to win the Big East, realistic chance at a second weekend run.  Didn't close out on those two things, but finished second in the BE and had a 5 seed.  Now it's time to show he can do these things consistently.  If he can't he'll be gone, even though some Scoopers don't think he will be fired no matter what happens on the court, so long as we don't start having legal or academic issues with our roster.

[Dawson Rental]

1.  Player with size that can contribute right away.  Garcia, JBF, or grad transfer.

2.  RJ Davis or AJ Hoggard
I'd take both but I think one is the goal.  Davis provides better shooting but Hoggard is bigger.

3.  BPA
Suggs, Mane, late bloomer, transfer...lots of ways to go

4.  Depends on what happens with the other spots.  Could be a shooter, big, BPA, or transfer.

I don't believe that JBF will be ready to contribute right away, in spite of his size.  He is moving up a class level, if MU gets him this year.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Regarding the bolded are you referring to the stars of recruits Wojo has brought in and has on his roster?  So far, not including transfers, Wojo has signed more five star prospects than he has two star prospects.  1 five star, 10 four stars, 7 three stars, 0 two stars, according to 247's system.

I think the expectation for Wojo is to be a threat to win the Big East every year, to be in the NCAA Tournament every year (or dang near it), and to have a real chance to make a second weekend run most years, with an occasional chance at a Final Four if things break right.  A lot of Scoopers seem to think the administration only wants choir boys and mild success and nothing else matters, but I don't think that's the case at all.  I think the administration knew Wojo was walking into a mess and gave him time to lay the groundwork.  Last year was the expectation.  Threat to win the Big East, realistic chance at a second weekend run.  Didn't close out on those two things, but finished second in the BE and had a 5 seed.  Now it's time to show he can do these things consistently.  If he can't he'll be gone, even though some Scoopers don't think he will be fired no matter what happens on the court, so long as we don't start having legal or academic issues with our roster.

I don't want to get into a discussion on stars again as we rehashed it...and each service has their own definitions. But scholarships were/are given to players like Levin, Ike, Tommy and Chartouney (I would stretch it to include Wally). No knock on them, and the circumstances vary, yet that is where recruiting landed. Solid teammates who filled some team role, mostly not on the game court.

[Lennys Tap]

Doc and Wades

Good points by both of you.

[brewcity77]

I don't want to get into a discussion on stars again as we rehashed it...and each service has their own definitions. But scholarships were/are given to players like Levin, Ike, Tommy and Chartouney (I would stretch it to include Wally). No knock on them, and the circumstances vary, yet that is where recruiting landed. Solid teammates who filled some team role, mostly not on the game court.

There are certainly wins and losses, though of the five you list, two were recruiting errors that were off the books in a year (Levin & Chartouny), two were multi-year errors (Ike & Wally) though I'd contest whether Ike was an error, more just a casualty. Tommy I'm not sure is fair to mention. Yes, he is filling a scholarship, but it's more a case of "I have this sitting around and I can either let it go to waste or give it to someone to whom it has value."

In addition, if we're looking at low ranked fliers that were taken, Rowsey also fits that criteria. Obviously he panned out far better than the others above, but not all of the 2/3 star fliers have failed (Sacar, Theo also successes).

[Herman Cain]

I don't want to get into a discussion on stars again as we rehashed it...and each service has their own definitions. But scholarships were/are given to players like Levin, Ike, Tommy and Chartouney (I would stretch it to include Wally). No knock on them, and the circumstances vary, yet that is where recruiting landed. Solid teammates who filled some team role, mostly not on the game court.

Rosters are constructed relative to the circumstances at the time , with specific roles in mind, keeping in mind that not all 13 players are recruited to be stars.

So when you look at the guys you mentioned, each had a story.

Levin- was a prized transfer at the time we competed against ND and others for his services and won. Unfortunately, he was recruited over by us taking Henry , so he returned to the West Coast and had a very solid 4 year career.

Ike- Definition of exactly the kind of guy you take on as a project . Lots of skill and athleticism but not a lot of experience and needs to develop his basketball IQ. A winner coming out of State Championship pedigree in Michigan. Not to mention a good guy. Unfortunately he got hurt before we had a chance .

Tommy-Very smart move. Had a one year audition on Scout. He showed he fills the role with size and required skills. Hard to keep those guys on roster. Many of the top programs utilize this strategy for the last scholarship spot when the right guy shows up.

Chartouny- we needed a one year rental at point guard . There was only one good point guard transfer that year  (matt Mooney) and a whole lot that were mediocre that year and we had to fill the slot , so net net we got 2 SOTGs from Joe so I think it was a fair trade off especially considering how poorly some of the alternatives ended up performing at their schools.

Wally=Getting Henry. Was worth it.

So I would say these examples above are all representative of the nature of D1 recruiting rather than MU specific foibles. For example look at the Badgers they are loaded with these kind of guys year after year.

Recruiting is an art form. If 2 guys per year actually prove out from each recruiting class, a team will do well over time.

[Dr. Blackheart]

There are certainly wins and losses, though of the five you list, two were recruiting errors that were off the books in a year (Levin & Chartouny), two were multi-year errors (Ike & Wally) though I'd contest whether Ike was an error, more just a casualty. Tommy I'm not sure is fair to mention. Yes, he is filling a scholarship, but it's more a case of "I have this sitting around and I can either let it go to waste or give it to someone to whom it has value."

In addition, if we're looking at low ranked fliers that were taken, Rowsey also fits that criteria. Obviously he panned out far better than the others above, but not all of the 2/3 star fliers have failed (Sacar, Theo also successes).

I am not going to debate the past as I was on an island early on about the recruiting approach. Old news. My point is we are moving up and so must be expectations.

[brewcity77]

I am not going to debate the past as I was on an island early on about the recruiting approach. Old news. My point is we are moving up and so must be expectations.

I think our expectations need to be guided by getting old. I don't see us winning the way Duke or Kentucky do. We need to turn 3/4 star players into studs the way Wisconsin, Villanova, and Virginia have.

Can we get the occasional top-10, maybe even top-5 recruiting class? Sure. But that will be the exception, not the norm. We need to consistently be in that 10-20 range and get those guys to stick around. Because that's a perfectly viable way to win titles, as long as you have the development staff to do it.

[Uncle Rico]

I think our expectations need to be guided by getting old. I don't see us winning the way Duke or Kentucky do. We need to turn 3/4 star players into studs the way Wisconsin, Villanova, and Virginia have.

Can we get the occasional top-10, maybe even top-5 recruiting class? Sure. But that will be the exception, not the norm. We need to consistently be in that 10-20 range and get those guys to stick around. Because that's a perfectly viable way to win titles, as long as you have the development staff to do it.

FWIW, here are some recruiting rankings from 24/7 for Villanova from 2013-18 (covering the title years)

2013: 36th nationally, Josh Hart (79th), Kris Jenkins (76th) - - both out of DC, ouch Hoyas

2014: 48th nationally, Mikal Bridges (81st), Phil Booth (75th)

2015:  29th nationally, Jalen Brunson (22nd), Dante DiVincenzo (124th)

2016:  45th nationally, Omari Spellman (20th), Dylan Painter (136th)

2017:  20th nationally, Jermaine Samuels (46th), Dhamir Cosby Roundtree (97th), Collin Gillespie (200th)

2018: 9th, Jahvon Quinerly (transfer, 29th), Cole Swider (44th),  Brandon Slater (53rd), Saddiq Bey (137th)

The best recruit by the numbers was Quinerly and he left.

What the list shows me is, despite some early entries from the list, you don’t have a lot of these core guys that transferred.  You could also look at Michigan under Beilein, who did his best work with guys that had similar profiles to what Villanova was working with.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I think our expectations need to be guided by getting old. I don't see us winning the way Duke or Kentucky do. We need to turn 3/4 star players into studs the way Wisconsin, Villanova, and Virginia have.

Can we get the occasional top-10, maybe even top-5 recruiting class? Sure. But that will be the exception, not the norm. We need to consistently be in that 10-20 range and get those guys to stick around. Because that's a perfectly viable way to win titles, as long as you have the development staff to do it.

Again, expectations are about the future and not the past or excuses.  November is a big month for Wojo and just not on the floor. He and I both expect excellence. 

[MU82]

FWIW, here are some recruiting rankings from 24/7 for Villanova from 2013-18 (covering the title years)

2013: 36th nationally, Josh Hart (79th), Kris Jenkins (76th) - - both out of DC, ouch Hoyas

2014: 48th nationally, Mikal Bridges (81st), Phil Booth (75th)

2015:  29th nationally, Jalen Brunson (22nd), Dante DiVincenzo (124th)

2016:  45th nationally, Omari Spellman (20th), Dylan Painter (136th)

2017:  20th nationally, Jermaine Samuels (46th), Dhamir Cosby Roundtree (97th), Collin Gillespie (200th)

2018: 9th, Jahvon Quinerly (transfer, 29th), Cole Swider (44th),  Brandon Slater (53rd), Saddiq Bey (137th)

The best recruit by the numbers was Quinerly and he left.

What the list shows me is, despite some early entries from the list, you don’t have a lot of these core guys that transferred.  You could also look at Michigan under Beilein, who did his best work with guys that had similar profiles to what Villanova was working with.

Great stuff, Unk.