Wojo's seat

[GrimmReaper33]

We must be keying in on different posters but those I remember knew as soon as four years ago that theoretically losing Burton, Dawson, Johnson and Fischer in one year would cause a massive drop off this year. Sure it didn’t play out like that but still figured a similar step back.

I think more people would be OK with a step back, if it was a step back from big time success.  What are we stepping back from?  A 6th place conference finish and a blowout tournament loss as a 10 seed?  It's not like we are reloading after some sweet 16 runs. 

Personally, I get sick of hearing the "wait until next year" stuff because it implies that Wojo hasn't had any talent yet, which I disagree with.  I'm beginning to doubt Wojo some because I think some of his teams so far have underperformed.  Last year's team must have had something like 7-8 former 4 star, top 100 recruits and that doesn't even include guys like Rowsey and Reinhardt who were proven, experienced veterans at the college level.  How many teams around the country had that type of raw talent?  That team should have been better than a one and done 10 seed, IMO.

The year before he had a lot of those same guys and a 5 star one and done lottery talent.  Not even getting a NIT berth with that squad, that was underperforming.  How much talent does he need before MU can compete for a Big East title and a Sweet 16 run?  Sure next year's team looks good on paper but so did the Ellenson team, and so did last year's team.

I'm not a fire Wojo club member right now, but I'm starting to get concerned and have been pretty unimpressed to date.  I wouldn't say his seat should be hot, but it shouldn't be cold either. 

[Goose]

Grimm

A+ post

[dgies9156]

I agree with this. Everyone calling for Wojo's head right now - what's the alternative? Who do we bring in?

I'm not sure anyone other than Al Davis is calling for Wojo's head.

There's a lot of frustration in here. Many of us want something that appears just outside of reach -- a return to glory. We are asking for consideration of adjustments that would facilitate the return.

Sending Wojo back to the Research Triangle would set us back at least five and probably 10 years. And it would drive us crazy if we sent him packing and he ended up taking someplace like the University of Utah to the Final Four.

Please don't confuse frustration with irrational acts.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

There's a lot of frustration in here. Many of us want something that appears just outside of reach -- a return to glory. We are asking for consideration of adjustments that would facilitate the return.

Frankly, I would accept a return to solid program status (top half of conference, tourney nearly every year, Top 30 kenpom).

I will deal with glory later.

[hairy worthen]

I think more people would be OK with a step back, if it was a step back from big time success.  What are we stepping back from?  A 6th place conference finish and a blowout tournament loss as an 11 seed?  It's not like we are reloading after some sweet 16 runs. 

Personally, I get sick of hearing the "wait until next year" stuff because it implies that Wojo hasn't had any talent yet, which I disagree with.  I'm beginning to doubt Wojo some because I think some of his teams so far have underperformed.  Last year's team must have had something like 7-8 former 4 star, top 100 recruits and that doesn't even include guys like Rowsey and Reinhardt who were proven, experienced veterans at the college level.  How many teams around the country had that type of raw talent?  That team should have been better than a one and done 11 seed, IMO.

The year before he had a lot of those same guys and a 5 star one and done lottery talent.  Not even getting a NIT berth with that squad, that was underperforming.  How much talent does he need before MU can compete for a Big East title and a Sweet 16 run?  Sure next year's team looks good on paper but so did the Ellenson team, and so did last year's team.

I'm not a fire Wojo club member right now, but I'm starting to get concerned and have been pretty unimpressed to date.  I wouldn't say his seat should be hot, but it shouldn't be cold either.

+1
I guess this is where I am at right now.  In Wojo’s defense though, it looks like he is doing things the “right” way and also building for long term success. That’s what makes me be a little more patient. I will sacrifice how long it takes to get there if it can be sustainable over a long time. I liked Buzz and always defended him, but he burned hot and you could see what he was doing was going to flame out.  (So I better go back and read my post before sending so the board Nazis call me out on something.)

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

+1
I guess this is where I am at right now.  In Wojo’s defense though, it looks like he is doing things the “right” way and also building for long term success. That’s what makes me be a little more patient. I will sacrifice how long it takes to get there if it can be sustainable over a long time. I liked Buzz and always defended him, but he burned hot and you could see what he was doing was going to flame out.  (So I better go back and read my post before sending so the board Nazis call me out on something.)

I think the proper term is "Intelligencia"

[Goose]

hairy

One of my gripes was pointed out by Grimm. Last year's team way under performed  IMO. Far from a FF team, but aside from Villanova win there were a lot of clunkers. I thought post 'Nova they might have something and they didn't. I'd give last year a C for a grade. Going back to a D this year would taste better if last year was B or B+.

[BM1090]

My only issue with Grimm's post is he stated we finished 6th in the conference last year., and he's not the first to say that.

We finished tied for 3rd, got the 4 seed in the BET, and were seeded in front of Xavier and Providence in the NCAA tournament. In no way did we finish 6th, unless you're saying Nova and Butler were 1/2 and then nobody placed 3rd, 4th or 5th, which doesn't make much sense.

[hairy worthen]

I think the proper term is "Intelligencia"

Wait, I thought we established the term as kook.

[Pakuni]

hairy

One of my gripes was pointed out by Grimm. Last year's team way under performed  IMO. Far from a FF team, but aside from Villanova win there were a lot of clunkers. I thought post 'Nova they might have something and they didn't. I'd give last year a C for a grade. Going back to a D this year would taste better if last year was B or B+.

Revisionist history.
Last year, Marquette was picked to finish 7th in the Big East, and was predicted to go 18-11 overall, 9-9 in conference, by Pomeroy. Pomeroy had them 47th overall. Lunardi had them as a "next four out" for the tournament.
They ended up winning more games overall, more games in conference, finished 32nd overall in Pomeroy's rankings and earned a 6 seed in the tourney.
In what world is this not just underperforming, but "way" underperforming?

[Goose]

Pakuni

Revisionist history per you. I think they had decent talent and played lousy more often than they should have. After 'Nova they were hit and miss. So much so, that folks on here were BEGGING for Matt Heldt to play over Luke.

[hairy worthen]

hairy

One of my gripes was pointed out by Grimm. Last year's team way under performed  IMO. Far from a FF team, but aside from Villanova win there were a lot of clunkers. I thought post 'Nova they might have something and they didn't. I'd give last year a C for a grade. Going back to a D this year would taste better if last year was B or B+.

I'm going to remain optimistic about this year. We can't criticize something that hasn't happened yet. Someone said building a program to success isn't always linear and that may be true we will see. Every good team takes a step down but we haven't taken  the step up yet to justify the step down. That's a good point by grimm. 

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

Revisionist history per you. I think they had decent talent and played lousy more often than they should have. After 'Nova they were hit and miss. So much so, that folks on here were BEGGING for Matt Heldt to play over Luke.

Got it. So even though they exceeded just about every objective preseason expectation (record, conference finish, Pomeroy, tournament status), they actually underperformed because some knuckleheads on Scoop thought Heldt should play over Luke.
Makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.

[Goose]

Pakuni

Come on. Did last year disappoint you at with the results? I was not devastated with the result, but definitely thought they left some room for improvement. Everything is not black and white. A tad more success last year (which I believe was possible) would make this year easier.

[tower912]

I will say that I have not seen on a regular basis from Wojo the alchemy, the 'it', that makes a team more than the sum of the parts.   He can recruit men of high character and skill.   

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

Come on. Did last year disappoint you at with the results? I was not devastated with the result, but definitely thought they left some room for improvement. Everything is not black and white. A tad more success last year (which I believe was possible) would make this year easier.

You're asking two very different questions.
No, last year did not disappoint me with the results. I went into the season thinking MU was a bubble team that could finished .500 in the conference, and they exceeded that.
Not winning any tournament games was a disappointment, but they ran into a white-hot SC team in the first round. It happens.

[GGGG]

+1
I guess this is where I am at right now.  In Wojo’s defense though, it looks like he is doing things the “right” way and also building for long term success. That’s what makes me be a little more patient. I will sacrifice how long it takes to get there if it can be sustainable over a long time. I liked Buzz and always defended him, but he burned hot and you could see what he was doing was going to flame out.  (So I better go back and read my post before sending so the board Nazis call me out on something.)

Cute.

But I agree with you 100% here.  I have said it before that I am not sold on Wojo.  I just think expecting growth from last year is unrealistic given what we lost.  (Best offensive post player and two best slashers.)  Is it Wojo's fault that those positions have not been adequately replaced?  100% yes.  It is his fault that MU is completely one-dimensional on offense right now?  Yep.  Is it is his fault that the current players are poor defensively?  No doubt.

Here is what I also think.  First, I think has recognized the short comings.  This year's freshman class includes more slashers than shooters.  Players with more length.  Players with more mobility and quickness.  Second, next year's class includes one of the top players in the country and another player who I think is going to fit in quite nicely.  Third, I think he getting better as a bench coach.

So I am willing to be patient.  I expect improvement next year and the year after.  Substantial improvement.  More balanced scoring.  Better defense.  Finish near the top of the conference.  Second weekend in the NCAAs.

If that doesn't happen next year, the seat should be warm.  After the year after, he should be gone. 

[Jay Bee]

So I am willing to be patient.  I expect improvement next year and the year after.  Substantial improvement.  More balanced scoring.  Better defense.  Finish near the top of the conference. Second weekend in the NCAAs.

If that doesn't happen next year, the seat should be warm.  After the year after, he should be gone.

crapshoot, a1na?

[skianth16]

I will say that I have not seen on a regular basis from Wojo the alchemy, the 'it', that makes a team more than the sum of the parts.   He can recruit men of high character and skill.

I think you're spot on. You can really tell that certain teams just fit together well and feed off each other in a way that makes everyone better. Unfortunately, we haven't seen that for a few years. Maybe next year, when we're pretty good on paper, it will transfer over to the floor as well.

[Goose]

Pakuni

Fair enough. I think they left a tad in the tank, but what the hell do I know?

[hairy worthen]

Got it. So even though they exceeded just about every objective preseason expectation (record, conference finish, Pomeroy, tournament status), they actually underperformed because some knuckleheads on Scoop thought Heldt should play over Luke.
Makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.

In terms of what was predicted of them by so called experts, yes they met expectations. In terms of what is expected of a third year coach at supposed high level program maybe not so mich.

[MUBBau]

Why does everyone keep saying 6 seed? We tied for third in conference and got a 10-seed in the NCAA

[skianth16]

In terms of what was predicted of them by so called experts, yes they met expectations. In terms of what is expected of a third year coach at supposed high level program maybe not so mich.

Stats can sometimes be misleading. Finishing 32nd in Pomeroy is a great example of that. We were not the 32nd best team in college basketball last year. No, I don't have a statistical or objective way of "proving" this, but from watching the team and seeing the ups and downs on the floor, I just have a hard time believing in that ranking.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

crapshoot, a1na?

Highly dependent on if they hit their free throws or not the first weekend.

[jsglow]

I'm going to take a different slant on this.  If, despite the new arena, ticket sales take a plunge next year owing to 1) frustration over many years of mediocre basketball, 2) an overly aggressive price bump, and 3) little to no belief that Joey is the 'savior' in much the same way that HE truly wasn't, then Wojo's seat will get hot in a jiffy.  Now whether the administration would pull a quick trigger on a new 'hot seat' is a different story.  I really can't see a scenario where in March 2019 they made that decision absent a scandal or complete collapse. But the year after that.......?  And Wojo would certainly be under pressure in '19-'20 to win big now.

I'm not sure if it was this thread or another but the post that described the MU Administration's view with regard to 'return on investment' was spot on. He gets paid a lot of money.  He's given considerable resources.  He's expected to run a clean program that produces results.