Wojo's Leash

[Boone]

ISE, couldn't agree more about the JUCO or grad transfer that Wojo failed to land -- or didn't even bother to try for. While not the sole source of our problems, it was foolish of Wojo to go into a season with only Heldt as a frontcourt backup. That kind of a 'plan' is what leaves you with Anim, a converted wing as the defacto reserve big.

[GGGG]

"Didn't even bother to try for?"

He went after Shonn Miller and Damian Lee and lost them to Michigan and Louisville respectively.  He also was also looking at a number of Jucos, who he either ended up not offering or not landing.

[Boone]

Point is, he came up empty.

[GGGG]

The last thing Wojo should be criticized for is his recruiting, especially when it isn't fully understood the limitations that MU might place on him for Juco transfers.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sure - but the point that none of the "old guard" seem to want to engage with is that Wojo walked into a situation with vastly different resources than KO (or even Crean).  I have no problem with someone taking 4 years to "rebuild"? (is it really a rebuild job after only one off year?) if they have median-level resources.  But Wojo arrived to a school resourced in the top 5 (3?) percentage of all college programs.  You don't get 4 years in that kind of situation - that's a bad return on your investment.  I'll give patience to a guy we're paying 400k to who has a 3 million budget.  For 1.5 million with a 10 million war chest back-to-back meaningless March is unacceptable.  As other have mentioned - where was the JUCO or grad-transfer that fills the missing piece to win this year?  Wojo didn't get that.  Add that on to his very questionable preparation and game coaching and what are we paying him for.  Potential?  Hell - half the commentators on this board have potential - and can put together a Prezi presentation too.

If we are paying top dollar we need to see top (or at least consistent, or at least competitive) results.  I mean being in the top 70 teams year on year (i.e. making at least the NIT) shouldn't be that much of a stretch if we're in the top 10 in spending.  If our spend isn't getting us there than let's dial back the funding and hire Rob Jeter.

Have some patience.  It's the third game of the season, it is an incomplete roster...just as it was last year and the year prior with Buzz.  That's the deal. 

[1SE]

Have some patience.  It's the third game of the season, it is an incomplete roster...just as it was last year and the year prior with Buzz.  That's the deal.

Last year's incomplete roster - on Buzz.  This year's incomplete roster has to be on Wojo.  If he wasn't committed to putting DU at point don't you think he should have begged, borrowed or stolen a PG with some experience from somewhere?  And had back up options until one accepted?  I'm actually thrilled with his frontcourt - this is the biggest we've been in 20 years! 

For everything wrong with the Phony Cowboy he was able to cobble together complete rosters years after year - surely someone with the same resources (and a much more decent person with a much better pedigree) could have put together a full team a year into the job? 

Again - I think the level of patience has to be relative to the level of resources - Wojo has everything at his disposal.  If we make a tourney this year then fine - he's on an upward progression and all is well.  But I think these three games are a worrying indication that that might not be in the cards (in fact I don't think a .500 season is any certainty).  He may have inherited an empty cupboard but he has also been given all the grocery money he could possibly want.  It shouldn't take 3 years to fill it (and again - if HE leaves how is next year's team possibly better than this year's?  Progression?  Doesn't seem to be happening with DU and JJJ).

[brewcity77]

"Didn't even bother to try for?"

He went after Shonn Miller and Damian Lee and lost them to Michigan Connecticut and Louisville respectively.  He also was also looking at a number of Jucos, who he either ended up not offering or not landing.

Small fix there

He tried for big fish to be sure, my question is definitely more about the next tier guys. After missing out on Miller, Lee, and a couple big names, there wasn't much of a push for guys like Rafael Maia, Anton Grady, Galal Cancer, Austin McBroom, or Alex Mitola. At the JUCO level we missed O'Field, but didn't seem to go hard after guys like Tyrone Outlaw, Shakir Brown, Deshawn Freeman, Marcus Johnson, or Dequon Miller.

I know I wasn't alone this past offseason saying we had a desperate need for a veteran PG and some grit inside. Those needs feel even bigger now than they did this past summer. As far as who he could and couldn't take, obviously we don't know, but I find it hard to believe that some of the grad transfers (3 of the 4 I listed were Ivy Leaguers) or JUCOs wouldn't have been acceptable, especially as we did have offers out.

The point PT made the other day about Henry being the best thing and worst thing to happen to Wojo may be accurate. I think our expectations were higher with such a phenomenal talent coming in. It's entirely possible the plan is more long term and the staff is looking at 1-2 more years before they will be truly competitive. It just feels (especially after a couple years of disappointment) that this chance with Henry is one we really shouldn't waste because who knows when we'll have a player like this again if he ends up leaving early. There was experience to be had that went to equal or lesser programs. Right now, it feels like we really could have used that experience.

[mu-rara]

Are we sure 1SE isn't Ners?

[1SE]

Are we sure 1SE isn't Ners?

Yes. This wasn't a "fire Wojo" thread - just a thread that if this season disappoints (we miss the NIT) then his seat should be quite warm next year (i.e. if he disappoints again in year 3 then he's gone at the end of the season).  This is based on missing the NIT being under-performance for a coach at  a top-10 funded program in his second year.  I realize others would not consider that under-performance but then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Last year's incomplete roster - on Buzz.  This year's incomplete roster has to be on Wojo.  If he wasn't committed to putting DU at point don't you think he should have begged, borrowed or stolen a PG with some experience from somewhere?  And had back up options until one accepted?  I'm actually thrilled with his frontcourt - this is the biggest we've been in 20 years! 

For everything wrong with the Phony Cowboy he was able to cobble together complete rosters years after year - surely someone with the same resources (and a much more decent person with a much better pedigree) could have put together a full team a year into the job? 

Again - I think the level of patience has to be relative to the level of resources - Wojo has everything at his disposal.  If we make a tourney this year then fine - he's on an upward progression and all is well.  But I think these three games are a worrying indication that that might not be in the cards (in fact I don't think a .500 season is any certainty).  He may have inherited an empty cupboard but he has also been given all the grocery money he could possibly want.  It shouldn't take 3 years to fill it (and again - if HE leaves how is next year's team possibly better than this year's?  Progression?  Doesn't seem to be happening with DU and JJJ).

You don't just get to go to the player store to assemble your roster from a catalog.  He knows what he wants, he got some of those guys but not all.  Young guys, very little experience and we have a few roster holes.

[brewcity77]

Are we sure 1SE isn't Ners?

1SE joined the site a week to the day before Ners was banned. Not impossible that he might have created a safety account or two, but probably not him.

No idea if Wojo's seat is hot at all. This young season has been very frustrating, but I do think it's significant that we have zero scholarship seniors and no real experience on this team. Yes, I do feel there are coaching issues, and I think after missing out on Lee and Miller, Wojo made a mistake in not going harder after some of the lesser known grad transfers (especially at the point, Galal Cancer would look fantastic here right now), but I think he at least deserves the chance to play with his own players. In theory, this is the team he built, especially as Jajuan Johnson is the only player on our roster that ever played for the old coach, but with no experience it's hard to really evaluate.

Last year with mostly Buzz's players and virtually no depth, it's hard to blame any coach for how that went. This year I guess my main hope is to see some legitimate progress. These guys need to play with more energy, emotion, and smarts. I want to see some semblance of defensive knowledge by the end of the season. If you're going to preach this man defense and recruit guys around that, then we have to see it on the court. But unless this year and next are absolute train wrecks, I think Wojo deserves at the minimum the chance to coach through 2017-18. Let's see how he does with his own recruits as upperclassmen. Guys like Duane, Sandy, Haanif, and Traci will likely look a lot different as juniors and seniors than they do now. If he can't win with his own guys once they're experienced, then it will be time to look at cutting the cord. Now is definitely too soon to seriously consider it.

[1SE]

You don't just get to go to the player store to assemble your roster from a catalog.  He knows what he wants, he got some of those guys but not all.  Young guys, very little experience and we have a few roster holes.

Yeah, but you do.  And if option 1 doesn't work out you go to option 2.  And if that doesn't work out you go to option 3.  Roster management is a big part of the job and Wojo hasn't done it well.

[1SE]

1SE joined the site a week to the day before Ners was banned. Not impossible that he might have created a safety account or two, but probably not him.

No idea if Wojo's seat is hot at all. This young season has been very frustrating, but I do think it's significant that we have zero scholarship seniors and no real experience on this team. Yes, I do feel there are coaching issues, and I think after missing out on Lee and Miller, Wojo made a mistake in not going harder after some of the lesser known grad transfers (especially at the point, Galal Cancer would look fantastic here right now), but I think he at least deserves the chance to play with his own players. In theory, this is the team he built, especially as Jajuan Johnson is the only player on our roster that ever played for the old coach, but with no experience it's hard to really evaluate.

Last year with mostly Buzz's players and virtually no depth, it's hard to blame any coach for how that went. This year I guess my main hope is to see some legitimate progress. These guys need to play with more energy, emotion, and smarts. I want to see some semblance of defensive knowledge by the end of the season. If you're going to preach this man defense and recruit guys around that, then we have to see it on the court. But unless this year and next are absolute train wrecks, I think Wojo deserves at the minimum the chance to coach through 2017-18. Let's see how he does with his own recruits as upperclassmen. Guys like Duane, Sandy, Haanif, and Traci will likely look a lot different as juniors and seniors than they do now. If he can't win with his own guys once they're experienced, then it will be time to look at cutting the cord. Now is definitely too soon to seriously consider it.

I agree with everything with the exception that that timeline is too long.  The NIT isn't a huge hurdle - teams at are caliber of resource shouldn't be out of the post season for 4 years.  Plus - let's give him to March 2018 - we haven't seen any improvement, his guys haven't panned out - we bring in someone new - you all give them another 4 years to get it together - that's how you end up a St. Louis, or a DePaul - and again - if you're happy with that fine (I'm not really) - but we can get to that outcome spending a lot less money on the program.

[jesmu84]

Wojo obviously tried to get a few grads or JUCOs and it didn't happen. No one is 100% on recruiting. Wojo has done a great job on that front.

It's also entirely possible he decided this was his roster and this is how he wanted to build the team - as a long-term product. Not short term results. I'm sure he's also discussed with his bosses this approach.

I don't particularly have a problem with this approach. I even applaud it. Long term vision with organizational continuity is the recipe for success.

I also don't understand the argument of "the school has a lot of money and Wojo is getting paid" as a knock against Wojo/this team. What do you REALLY expect those finances to amount to? It's not like we're paying the players. How do you see those finances impacting the program directly? Other than maybe attracting a head coach, I don't see direct translation to success. And even re: head coach, we saw in the last two searches, we aren't pulling top notch talent from other schools.

[1SE]

Jaysus, *our* caliber of resource. 

[jesmu84]

Yeah, but you do.  And if option 1 doesn't work out you go to option 2.  And if that doesn't work out you go to option 3.  Roster management is a big part of the job and Wojo hasn't done it well.

You seem to be implying that Wojo/MU should get whomever they want. And it's a failing if they don't, based on the $$ we spend. That makes no sense. Plus, what if Wojo had an option 1, 2, 3, 4 and then quit before option 5 because option 5 was a 1 star player who wouldn't have done a thing to contribute? Again, I'd like to see where finances spent for a program is in direct correlation to program success. That's the connection you're making that I don't think is there.

[1SE]

Wojo obviously tried to get a few grads or JUCOs and it didn't happen. No one is 100% on recruiting. Wojo has done a great job on that front.

It's also entirely possible he decided this was his roster and this is how he wanted to build the team - as a long-term product. Not short term results. I'm sure he's also discussed with his bosses this approach.

I don't particularly have a problem with this approach. I even applaud it. Long term vision with organizational continuity is the recipe for success.

I also don't understand the argument of "the school has a lot of money and Wojo is getting paid" as a knock against Wojo/this team. What do you REALLY expect those finances to amount to? It's not like we're paying the players. How do you see those finances impacting the program directly? Other than maybe attracting a head coach, I don't see direct translation to success. And even re: head coach, we saw in the last two searches, we aren't pulling top notch talent from other schools.

You don't pay the players but recruiting itself costs money and all of the perks (that cost money) we can offer in terms of facilities, travel, gear, etc. etc. etc. are part of what makes us more attractive to recruits than other similarly-situated high-major, non-blue blood, programs.  A school with twice the budget should be more effective at recruiting, all other things equal.

I agree that our last two searches haven't pulled in the big name talent - which then begs the question why are we spending the money? 

I guess my problem here is that if we are spending top dollar and not getting results than we just look like fools.  Programs that spend the amount of money we spend make a tournament EVERY YEAR.  I'm fine with "the process" and the "long view" but we can spend half the money if we want to go that route.  MU already has one of the thinnest profit margins of the big spenders and if attendance numbers and merch sales start to drop off (as they will with 4 years of mediocre ball) it doesn't take long to get into the red.   

[1SE]

You seem to be implying that Wojo/MU should get whomever they want. And it's a failing if they don't, based on the $$ we spend. That makes no sense. Plus, what if Wojo had an option 1, 2, 3, 4 and then quit before option 5 because option 5 was a 1 star player who wouldn't have done a thing to contribute? Again, I'd like to see where finances spent for a program is in direct correlation to program success. That's the connection you're making that I don't think is there.

Seriously?  Google "men's college basketball" spending at look at the teams in our neighborhood.  Look at the top 20.  None of these teams go 4 years out of the postseason.

[1SE]

"men's college basketball spending"

[Galway Eagle]

Isn't your whole argument based on the idea we miss next year? That's a big assumption. Even if Henry's gone.

[jesmu84]

You don't pay the players but recruiting itself costs money and all of the perks (that cost money) we can offer in terms of facilities, travel, gear, etc. etc. etc. are part of what makes us more attractive to recruits than other similarly-situated high-major, non-blue blood, programs.  A school with twice the budget should be more effective at recruiting, all other things equal.

I agree that our last two searches haven't pulled in the big name talent - which then begs the question why are we spending the money? 

I guess my problem here is that if we are spending top dollar and not getting results than we just look like fools.  Programs that spend the amount of money we spend make a tournament EVERY YEAR.  I'm fine with "the process" and the "long view" but we can spend half the money if we want to go that route.  MU already has one of the thinnest profit margins of the big spenders and if attendance numbers and merch sales start to drop off (as they will with 4 years of mediocre ball) it doesn't take long to get into the red.

This I actually agree with. If we aren't getting the results back with the investment, or it's clear that if we used a cost-benefit analysis we aren't coming out ahead, then perhaps we should be cutting some of the money. That's more where I was coming from.

Also, I would say that many of those Top 20 spenders are blue bloods who would probably get the results anyway.

I think you also have to look at MU and it's coaches. Even Buzz failed to get some/most of the recruits he wanted, the high end ones anyway. And he was a long standing HC with success both in the tournament and developing players for the NBA. So, you've got a guy at a high-financed program who had NCAA/conference success, and success getting players to the NBA who still couldn't get in the top talent. What does that tell us? Now we're that same program, with a coach without the resume. Certainly seems like it will be a rebuilding situation.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah, but you do.  And if option 1 doesn't work out you go to option 2.  And if that doesn't work out you go to option 3.  Roster management is a big part of the job and Wojo hasn't done it well.

Actually, you don't....at least not really.  Sure, you go to option 2, etc, but at some point you get to an option that is settling, and tying up a scholarship just to settle doesn't work either.

So I agree you move to other options, but those options don't have a limitless number to them.

[MuMark]

"men's college basketball spending"

You aren't paying the bill so why do,you care how much they spend?

Nobody likes losing but my god man take a breath and relax.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Seriously?  Google "men's college basketball" spending at look at the teams in our neighborhood.  Look at the top 20.  None of these teams go 4 years out of the postseason.

We're only 2 years out of the postseason, where are you getting 4?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You aren't paying the bill so why do,you care how much they spend?

Nobody likes losing but my god man take a breath and relax.

To be fair to ners, the money does come back in the form of higher ticket prices, donation levels, etc....which is born by the fans.