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Author Topic: Wojo's Leash  (Read 56178 times)

1SE

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Wojo's Leash
« on: November 17, 2015, 03:02:57 PM »
Caveats:

1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)

2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)

3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out.  He's the "type" of coach we want.

But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class.  The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy.  Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa).  IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home.  Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.

With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year.  Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there.  We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.

Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching.  The team lacks discipline: COACHING.  The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING.  Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING.  Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING.  We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors.  That's like having an entire new faculty department.  Is he worth it?  He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat?  Right? 
Real Warriors Demand Excellence

willie warrior

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2015, 03:12:16 PM »
This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

warriorchick

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 03:13:20 PM »
Caveats:

1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)

2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)

3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out.  He's the "type" of coach we want.

But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class.  The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy.  Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa).  IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home.  Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.

With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year.  Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there.  We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.

Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching.  The team lacks discipline: COACHING.  The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING.  Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING.  Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING.  We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors.  That's like having an entire new faculty department.  Is he worth it?  He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat?  Right?

Thomas, is that you?  You have broken my heart....     :'(
Have some patience, FFS.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 03:14:59 PM »
This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.

So you aren't happy we went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8. Hate Jimmy Butler, DJO, Crowder, etc.  Gotcha.
Maigh Eo for Sam

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 03:17:27 PM »
Caveats:

1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)

2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)

3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out.  He's the "type" of coach we want.

But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class.  The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy.  Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa).  IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home.  Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.

With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year.  Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there.  We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.

Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching.  The team lacks discipline: COACHING.  The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING.  Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING.  Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING.  We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors.  That's like having an entire new faculty department.  Is he worth it?  He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat?  Right?

We focus so much on this being a top ten recruting class but is it really? I mean Haanif and Henry are the only two truly national recruits. I'm more embarrassed that the top 10 recruiting class from two years ago is still struggling. 

They won't put him on the hot seat till after next year.
Maigh Eo for Sam

1SE

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2015, 03:18:03 PM »
This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.

Eh - it's not even the in-game coaching (like I said, haven't been able to watch, but Belmont in particular sounds like it was dire) - it's the preparation.  How do Bradds and Bradshaw come in and drop 45.  They aren't unknowns - how do you not set up some schemes for them.  Say what you will about the Tanned One (I wasn't a huge fan).  But at least when Reece Gaines came to town you could count on him having his worst night of the season. 

That, and the discipline.  Defense really is coach.ed  Wojo is Mr. D.  How are they so bad....
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willie warrior

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2015, 03:19:21 PM »
So you aren't happy we went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8. Hate Jimmy Butler, DJO, Crowder, etc.  Gotcha.
Didn't say that bagger, so no you don't gotcha. Buzz was a phony and you know it. Gotcha!
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GGGG

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2015, 03:21:37 PM »
This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.


I agree with willie here.  I think by the end of the year we will have a much better indication.  He clearly isn't going to be run out of town no matter what after this year, so we will have another year after that.  By that point I think we will have a real good idea of how successful he will ultimately be as a coach.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 03:22:42 PM »
Didn't say that bagger, so no you don't gotcha. Buzz was a phony and you know it. Gotcha!

He was a phony, that's why I didn't highlight that portion. Just the less lucky part. What part weren't we lucky with? I have to assume you weren't happy with the 5 of 6 great years.
Maigh Eo for Sam

1SE

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 03:25:36 PM »

I agree with willie here.  I think by the end of the year we will have a much better indication.  He clearly isn't going to be run out of town no matter what after this year, so we will have another year after that.  By that point I think we will have a real good idea of how successful he will ultimately be as a coach.

3 Million is a pretty hefty price tag for a guy to spend two years learning on the job.  Give him the pass last year - sure (even though I still think he underperformed with what he had).  But he's got solid talent on this year's squad - underperformance is squarely on his shoulders.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2015, 03:27:26 PM »
3 Million is a pretty hefty price tag for a guy to spend two years learning on the job.  Give him the pass last year - sure (even though I still think he underperformed with what he had).  But he's got solid talent on this year's squad - underperformance is squarely on his shoulders.

It should be noted we probably would've won a couple more if Carlino hadn't had a concussion. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

DienerTime34

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 03:31:28 PM »
Marquette bought Wojo's stock at $10 a share and it's stayed pretty much the same with a few small ups and downs along the way. Marquette stockholders are fine with it for now because the stock still has a 5-star rating and everyone expects it to reach $100 in the next eight years before the stock splits for Duke.

If Wojo is still at $10 by the end of this season, there's going to be some major grumblings.

mu03eng

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 03:31:45 PM »
Guys, it has been two games with just about the most inexperienced team in Division 1...a team that doesn't even know how to take coaching yet let alone execute based on it.

I will absolutely grant that there are signs that could be concerning but we don't have nearly enough evidence to draw any kind of conclusion on Wojo's coaching.

He's been making adjustments, just slower than I think we'd like.  That will come with time and improved execution from the players.

As an example last night he went from man to zone because he thought it would work...saw that it did, then tried to go back to man as a learning experience for the players.  When that didn't work he went back to zone to win.  He has to get this team experience in the games that will benefit them in the Big East not just win games by the widest margin now.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

1SE

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 03:33:42 PM »
Guys, it has been two games with just about the most inexperienced team in Division 1...a team that doesn't even know how to take coaching yet let alone execute based on it.

I will absolutely grant that there are signs that could be concerning but we don't have nearly enough evidence to draw any kind of conclusion on Wojo's coaching.

He's been making adjustments, just slower than I think we'd like.  That will come with time and improved execution from the players.

As an example last night he went from man to zone because he thought it would work...saw that it did, then tried to go back to man as a learning experience for the players.  When that didn't work he went back to zone to win.  He has to get this team experience in the games that will benefit them in the Big East not just win games by the widest margin now.
Fair enough, I know the general tenor of this board is "Wojo Apologist" (or "MU Optimist") but if you take off the rose colored glasses is anyone really, truly, happy with how Wojo has performed?  Even satisfied?  Anything better than mildly disappointed?  I don't expect miracles and I know Wojo's around for at least one more year for all sorts of reasons, and maybe I'm a bit spoiled by all the years of watching the Phony Cowboy squeeze so much out of so little (slime that he was), but we shouldn't have been last in the Big East this year.  We should have a reasonable expectation of the Dance this year.  These aren't pipe dreams for a school putting 10 million a year into its program. 
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GGGG

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 03:35:03 PM »
3 Million is a pretty hefty price tag for a guy to spend two years learning on the job.  Give him the pass last year - sure (even though I still think he underperformed with what he had).  But he's got solid talent on this year's squad - underperformance is squarely on his shoulders.


Neither you nor I are paying his salary.  And if you think he has underperformed that's fine.  But really why does it matter?  Wojo will be around awhile.  The best I can do is say "Well OK...let's hope this works out."  I don't have much choice.

GGGG

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2015, 03:38:02 PM »
Fair enough, I know the general tenor of this board is "Wojo Apologist" (or "MU Optimist") but if you take off the rose colored glasses is anyone really, truly, happy with how Wojo has performed?  Even satisfied?  Anything better than mildly disappointed?  I don't expect miracles and I know Wojo's around for at least one more year for all sorts of reasons, and maybe I'm a bit spoiled by all the years of watching the Phony Cowboy squeeze so much out of so little (slime that he was), but we shouldn't have been last in the Big East this year.  We should have a reasonable expectation of the Dance this year.  These aren't pipe dreams for a school putting 10 million a year into its program. 


Buzz had much more talent than you are giving him credit for.  Three players drafted in the NBA first round.  Another who has become a star as a free agent. 

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2015, 03:38:06 PM »
Wojo's top 10 class is no comparison to the freshman class at Kentucky in 2014-15 - those guys were all top 20 not just top 100 and then you add that class to the returning players Cal had ... not apples to apples

1SE

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2015, 03:39:29 PM »

Neither you nor I are paying his salary.  And if you think he has underperformed that's fine.  But really why does it matter?  Wojo will be around awhile.  The best I can do is say "Well OK...let's hope this works out."  I don't have much choice.

You don't think I'm boosting the program to the tune of 500k a year? :-).  Even if I'm not - it's still an opportunity cost - the money is spent on MUBB rather than elsewhere because it pays a return.  Marquette isn't an IU or Duke or UCLA - our brand will lose it's appeal much more quickly. Again - I hope the season goes well and we make the dance and all the rest.  But as a fan base, when we do say "hhhmmm".  I'm not saying we do it now - but as DT34 says - if we're still at $10 at the end of the season... 
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1SE

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2015, 03:41:07 PM »
Wojo's top 10 class is no comparison to the freshman class at Kentucky in 2014-15 - those guys were all top 20 not just top 100 and then you add that class to the returning players Cal had ... not apples to apples

Right - but I'm not saying this team should go 40-0.  I'm saying this team should be squarely on the bubble.  I think that's a reasonable relative comparison. 
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BM1090

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2015, 03:45:29 PM »
Right - but I'm not saying this team should go 40-0.  I'm saying this team should be squarely on the bubble.  I think that's a reasonable relative comparison.

If we aren't on or near the bubble at the end of the year, I think the vast majority of the board will agree with you

KenoshaWarrior

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2015, 03:46:19 PM »
So you aren't happy we went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8. Hate Jimmy Butler, DJO, Crowder, etc.  Gotcha.

Was just going to say the same thing. 
Yea that horrible run of 5 ncaa appearances in a row and Back to Back To Back Regional or Regional Semi appearances. 

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2015, 03:50:55 PM »
Fair enough, I know the general tenor of this board is "Wojo Apologist" (or "MU Optimist") but if you take off the rose colored glasses is anyone really, truly, happy with how Wojo has performed?  Even satisfied?  Anything better than mildly disappointed?

I'm very satisfied. He brought in a top 10 recruiting class in his first year. He's already brought in two more top 100 kids for future classes. He has also been an excellent ambassador of Marquette. What else do we have to judge him on? Last season he inherited an empty cupboard from Buzz. This season we have played exactly two games. We lost one game to a very good team that literally had 100s more games of experience on their team. We won our second game. It was ugly but it was a win. Anyone who is expecting anymore is kidding themselves.

Next year is when you can start to determine how Wojo is doing on the court. His seat won't even start to get luke warm until 2017.
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bilsu

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2015, 03:53:31 PM »
I thought this was an interesting comparison. Fastest MU coaches to 20 losses, since 1950.
McGuire 30 games 10-20 turn out to be the best coach
Wojo      33 games 13-20
Crean     39 games 19-20
O'Neal    39 games 19-20
Dukiet    41 games 21-20 turned out to be the worst coach

1SE

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2015, 03:55:54 PM »
I thought this was an interesting comparison. Fastest MU coaches to 20 losses, since 1950.
McGuire 30 games 10-20 turn out to be the best coach
Wojo      33 games 13-20
Crean     39 games 19-20
O'Neal    39 games 19-20
Dukiet    41 games 21-20 turned out to be the worst coach

Buzz?
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mu03eng

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Re: Wojo's Leash
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2015, 03:58:09 PM »
Right - but I'm not saying this team should go 40-0.  I'm saying this team should be squarely on the bubble.  I think that's a reasonable relative comparison.

There is nothing we've seen this year that says we can't be a bubble team.

I don't think people have an appreciation for how bare the cupboard was after Buzz left and how young we are.

Let's have this conversation in February and see where we are at.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

 

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