MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on November 17, 2015, 03:02:57 PM
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year. Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there. We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.
Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching. The team lacks discipline: COACHING. The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING. Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING. Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING. We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors. That's like having an entire new faculty department. Is he worth it? He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat? Right?
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This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year. Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there. We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.
Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching. The team lacks discipline: COACHING. The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING. Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING. Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING. We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors. That's like having an entire new faculty department. Is he worth it? He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat? Right?
Thomas, is that you? You have broken my heart.... :'(
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This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.
So you aren't happy we went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8. Hate Jimmy Butler, DJO, Crowder, etc. Gotcha.
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year. Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there. We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.
Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching. The team lacks discipline: COACHING. The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING. Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING. Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING. We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors. That's like having an entire new faculty department. Is he worth it? He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat? Right?
We focus so much on this being a top ten recruting class but is it really? I mean Haanif and Henry are the only two truly national recruits. I'm more embarrassed that the top 10 recruiting class from two years ago is still struggling.
They won't put him on the hot seat till after next year.
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This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.
Eh - it's not even the in-game coaching (like I said, haven't been able to watch, but Belmont in particular sounds like it was dire) - it's the preparation. How do Bradds and Bradshaw come in and drop 45. They aren't unknowns - how do you not set up some schemes for them. Say what you will about the Tanned One (I wasn't a huge fan). But at least when Reece Gaines came to town you could count on him having his worst night of the season.
That, and the discipline. Defense really is coach.ed Wojo is Mr. D. How are they so bad....
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So you aren't happy we went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8. Hate Jimmy Butler, DJO, Crowder, etc. Gotcha.
Didn't say that bagger, so no you don't gotcha. Buzz was a phony and you know it. Gotcha!
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This has been MU's mantra for a while--hire guys who will learn on the job. We were lucky with Crean, who still is not a very good XandO guy. A little less lucky with the phony cowboy who wore out his shtik here. Wojo is also learning on the job, and so far is not doing that well. He is a great recruiter which is half the battle, but his game coaching has a lot to be developed. Those power points do not translate in game coaching. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.
I agree with willie here. I think by the end of the year we will have a much better indication. He clearly isn't going to be run out of town no matter what after this year, so we will have another year after that. By that point I think we will have a real good idea of how successful he will ultimately be as a coach.
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Didn't say that bagger, so no you don't gotcha. Buzz was a phony and you know it. Gotcha!
He was a phony, that's why I didn't highlight that portion. Just the less lucky part. What part weren't we lucky with? I have to assume you weren't happy with the 5 of 6 great years.
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I agree with willie here. I think by the end of the year we will have a much better indication. He clearly isn't going to be run out of town no matter what after this year, so we will have another year after that. By that point I think we will have a real good idea of how successful he will ultimately be as a coach.
3 Million is a pretty hefty price tag for a guy to spend two years learning on the job. Give him the pass last year - sure (even though I still think he underperformed with what he had). But he's got solid talent on this year's squad - underperformance is squarely on his shoulders.
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3 Million is a pretty hefty price tag for a guy to spend two years learning on the job. Give him the pass last year - sure (even though I still think he underperformed with what he had). But he's got solid talent on this year's squad - underperformance is squarely on his shoulders.
It should be noted we probably would've won a couple more if Carlino hadn't had a concussion.
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Marquette bought Wojo's stock at $10 a share and it's stayed pretty much the same with a few small ups and downs along the way. Marquette stockholders are fine with it for now because the stock still has a 5-star rating and everyone expects it to reach $100 in the next eight years before the stock splits for Duke.
If Wojo is still at $10 by the end of this season, there's going to be some major grumblings.
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Guys, it has been two games with just about the most inexperienced team in Division 1...a team that doesn't even know how to take coaching yet let alone execute based on it.
I will absolutely grant that there are signs that could be concerning but we don't have nearly enough evidence to draw any kind of conclusion on Wojo's coaching.
He's been making adjustments, just slower than I think we'd like. That will come with time and improved execution from the players.
As an example last night he went from man to zone because he thought it would work...saw that it did, then tried to go back to man as a learning experience for the players. When that didn't work he went back to zone to win. He has to get this team experience in the games that will benefit them in the Big East not just win games by the widest margin now.
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Guys, it has been two games with just about the most inexperienced team in Division 1...a team that doesn't even know how to take coaching yet let alone execute based on it.
I will absolutely grant that there are signs that could be concerning but we don't have nearly enough evidence to draw any kind of conclusion on Wojo's coaching.
He's been making adjustments, just slower than I think we'd like. That will come with time and improved execution from the players.
As an example last night he went from man to zone because he thought it would work...saw that it did, then tried to go back to man as a learning experience for the players. When that didn't work he went back to zone to win. He has to get this team experience in the games that will benefit them in the Big East not just win games by the widest margin now.
Fair enough, I know the general tenor of this board is "Wojo Apologist" (or "MU Optimist") but if you take off the rose colored glasses is anyone really, truly, happy with how Wojo has performed? Even satisfied? Anything better than mildly disappointed? I don't expect miracles and I know Wojo's around for at least one more year for all sorts of reasons, and maybe I'm a bit spoiled by all the years of watching the Phony Cowboy squeeze so much out of so little (slime that he was), but we shouldn't have been last in the Big East this year. We should have a reasonable expectation of the Dance this year. These aren't pipe dreams for a school putting 10 million a year into its program.
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3 Million is a pretty hefty price tag for a guy to spend two years learning on the job. Give him the pass last year - sure (even though I still think he underperformed with what he had). But he's got solid talent on this year's squad - underperformance is squarely on his shoulders.
Neither you nor I are paying his salary. And if you think he has underperformed that's fine. But really why does it matter? Wojo will be around awhile. The best I can do is say "Well OK...let's hope this works out." I don't have much choice.
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Fair enough, I know the general tenor of this board is "Wojo Apologist" (or "MU Optimist") but if you take off the rose colored glasses is anyone really, truly, happy with how Wojo has performed? Even satisfied? Anything better than mildly disappointed? I don't expect miracles and I know Wojo's around for at least one more year for all sorts of reasons, and maybe I'm a bit spoiled by all the years of watching the Phony Cowboy squeeze so much out of so little (slime that he was), but we shouldn't have been last in the Big East this year. We should have a reasonable expectation of the Dance this year. These aren't pipe dreams for a school putting 10 million a year into its program.
Buzz had much more talent than you are giving him credit for. Three players drafted in the NBA first round. Another who has become a star as a free agent.
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Wojo's top 10 class is no comparison to the freshman class at Kentucky in 2014-15 - those guys were all top 20 not just top 100 and then you add that class to the returning players Cal had ... not apples to apples
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Neither you nor I are paying his salary. And if you think he has underperformed that's fine. But really why does it matter? Wojo will be around awhile. The best I can do is say "Well OK...let's hope this works out." I don't have much choice.
You don't think I'm boosting the program to the tune of 500k a year? :-). Even if I'm not - it's still an opportunity cost - the money is spent on MUBB rather than elsewhere because it pays a return. Marquette isn't an IU or Duke or UCLA - our brand will lose it's appeal much more quickly. Again - I hope the season goes well and we make the dance and all the rest. But as a fan base, when we do say "hhhmmm". I'm not saying we do it now - but as DT34 says - if we're still at $10 at the end of the season...
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Wojo's top 10 class is no comparison to the freshman class at Kentucky in 2014-15 - those guys were all top 20 not just top 100 and then you add that class to the returning players Cal had ... not apples to apples
Right - but I'm not saying this team should go 40-0. I'm saying this team should be squarely on the bubble. I think that's a reasonable relative comparison.
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Right - but I'm not saying this team should go 40-0. I'm saying this team should be squarely on the bubble. I think that's a reasonable relative comparison.
If we aren't on or near the bubble at the end of the year, I think the vast majority of the board will agree with you
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So you aren't happy we went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8. Hate Jimmy Butler, DJO, Crowder, etc. Gotcha.
Was just going to say the same thing.
Yea that horrible run of 5 ncaa appearances in a row and Back to Back To Back Regional or Regional Semi appearances.
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Fair enough, I know the general tenor of this board is "Wojo Apologist" (or "MU Optimist") but if you take off the rose colored glasses is anyone really, truly, happy with how Wojo has performed? Even satisfied? Anything better than mildly disappointed?
I'm very satisfied. He brought in a top 10 recruiting class in his first year. He's already brought in two more top 100 kids for future classes. He has also been an excellent ambassador of Marquette. What else do we have to judge him on? Last season he inherited an empty cupboard from Buzz. This season we have played exactly two games. We lost one game to a very good team that literally had 100s more games of experience on their team. We won our second game. It was ugly but it was a win. Anyone who is expecting anymore is kidding themselves.
Next year is when you can start to determine how Wojo is doing on the court. His seat won't even start to get luke warm until 2017.
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I thought this was an interesting comparison. Fastest MU coaches to 20 losses, since 1950.
McGuire 30 games 10-20 turn out to be the best coach
Wojo 33 games 13-20
Crean 39 games 19-20
O'Neal 39 games 19-20
Dukiet 41 games 21-20 turned out to be the worst coach
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I thought this was an interesting comparison. Fastest MU coaches to 20 losses, since 1950.
McGuire 30 games 10-20 turn out to be the best coach
Wojo 33 games 13-20
Crean 39 games 19-20
O'Neal 39 games 19-20
Dukiet 41 games 21-20 turned out to be the worst coach
Buzz?
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Right - but I'm not saying this team should go 40-0. I'm saying this team should be squarely on the bubble. I think that's a reasonable relative comparison.
There is nothing we've seen this year that says we can't be a bubble team.
I don't think people have an appreciation for how bare the cupboard was after Buzz left and how young we are.
Let's have this conversation in February and see where we are at.
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My only complaint would be we did not try and feed the post much in the 2nd half. The other would be I would have liked a coach on his staff that had head coaching Experience. I feel like that would help his in game adjustments and subsityutions. None of the coach's on the staff have ever done that. I know from a practice stand point the are probably good ASSt coach's do a lot of the drills ETC.
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Buzz was 25-10 the first year and that is with James breaking his foot. He followed that with 22-15. so he would of lost 20 games sometime in his second season, but without looking it up would have probably 35 wins. So 55 games give or take.
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Buzz?
65 games 45-20 (counting tournament loses and wins)
68 games 48-20 (regular season only)
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There is nothing we've seen this year that says we can't be a bubble team.
I don't think people have an appreciation for how bare the cupboard was after Buzz left and how young we are.
Let's have this conversation in February and see where we are at.
The cupboard was not so bare, if he had kept more of the incoming recruits and did not lose Burton and Dawson at mid-season. Sure we finished the season with 8 scholarship players, but he has a lot of blame in that. He even lost his first recruit who would of helped in practice. I cannot think of his name, but he transferred in and then transferred out before the end of the first semester.
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The cupboard was not so bare, if he had kept more of the incoming recruits and did not lose Burton and Dawson at mid-season. Sure we finished the season with 8 scholarship players, but he has a lot of blame in that. He even lost his first recruit who would of helped in practice. I cannot think of his name, but he transferred in and then transferred out before the end of the first semester.
was that the Loyola transfer?
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was that the Loyola transfer?
yes
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
How about giving your views after March 6 2016 and see if you see any change.
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Buzz was 25-10 the first year and that is with James breaking his foot. He followed that with 22-15. so he would of lost 20 games sometime in his second season, but without looking it up would have probably 35 wins. So 55 games give or take.
That's one way of looking at it.
Another way is that he was 23-5 in games James started, 2-5 in games in which he didn't.
I'm not a Buzz basher, but let's not mislead about what he did without James in the lineup.
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The cupboard was not so bare, if he had kept more of the incoming recruits and did not lose Burton and Dawson at mid-season. Sure we finished the season with 8 scholarship players, but he has a lot of blame in that. He even lost his first recruit who would of helped in practice. I cannot think of his name, but he transferred in and then transferred out before the end of the first semester.
It's really not fair to blame any coach - Buzz, Wojo, whoever - for a kid leaving when the coach he signed to play for leaves. It happens to every coach at every school.
Wojo is no more to blame for Burton leaving or Hill de-committing than Buzz was to blame for Christopherson leaving and Tyshawn Taylor de-committing.
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The cupboard was not so bare, if he had kept more of the incoming recruits and did not lose Burton and Dawson at mid-season. Sure we finished the season with 8 scholarship players, but he has a lot of blame in that. He even lost his first recruit who would of helped in practice. I cannot think of his name, but he transferred in and then transferred out before the end of the first semester.
I'd say "responsibility" vs blame. Burton was a unique situation and Dawson wasn't the type of person/player that would be happy in the program. I think he did right by the university and the players in both situations. The alternative would be to either force the player to do something not in his best interest or change his year one approach to 'maybe' get another 2 wins.
Nothing about Wojo's actions indicate that he's not following a very specific plan.
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Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
Top 10 recruiting class ≠ 6 players of Henry's calibur and two more sophomores one notch below
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The cupboard was not so bare, if he had kept more of the incoming recruits and did not lose Burton and Dawson at mid-season. Sure we finished the season with 8 scholarship players, but he has a lot of blame in that. He even lost his first recruit who would of helped in practice. I cannot think of his name, but he transferred in and then transferred out before the end of the first semester.
losing Magic Dawson DID hurt
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I thought this was an interesting comparison. Fastest MU coaches to 20 losses, since 1950.
McGuire 30 games 10-20 turn out to be the best coach
Wojo 33 games 13-20
Crean 39 games 19-20
O'Neal 39 games 19-20
Dukiet 41 games 21-20 turned out to be the worst coach
Thank you. This is the most logical post of this board I have read yet.
The Hillbilly left the cupboard bare. And I mean bare. There was so little it was amazing and a part of what we had left for Marquette West in Iowa City. Nobody should be surprised by the inexperience of our team or our ability to make freshman mistakes.
Someone compared this team to the first or second year of the Hillbilly. The fact is the Hillbilly inherited a better complement of players and was able to heavily recruit jucos. That's not an option here.
Anyone who tries to judge Wojo today is nuts. The expense we have with him is an investment in our team and our future. Give the guy a chance, for crying out loud!
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losing Magic Dawson DID hurt
Only because of injuries and the lack of depth that already existed prior to his departure. Losing Niv Berkowitz might also have hurt under last year's circumstances.
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Third least experienced team in D1 coached by a guy who has now coached 35 games. How about we put away the pitchforks and take a long view of this?
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Third least experienced team in D1 coached by a guy who has now coached 35 games. How about we put away the pitchforks and take a long view of this?
Nonsense.
This is the Internet, where only hot taeks are welcome.
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was that the Loyola transfer?
I think his name was Gabe Levin. He's at Long Beach St now.
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I think his name was Gabe Levin. He's at Long Beach St now.
Yeah, and he basically decided to transfer out when the writing was on the wall that HE was coming here. Remember that he would have had to sit out all last year to end up backing up HE.
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I'd give Wojo an extremely long leash. 6-7 years...unless we are still dead last after 5 years. He has a great pedigree. I find it hard to believe he can't learn as a coach from errors and/or coach defense better. Now I would have thought Wojo would have been a great D coach/ perimeter D guy right off the bat but that obviously isn't the case.
However, he has the character and demeanor of what could be a great coach. But he needs to accelerate his head coaching acumen or find better assistants. Some big changes will need to happen if we still suck after 3 years.
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WoJo will be fine. I'm sure he would say he has some learning to do. Assistant for a long time is very different than you being the head coach. He recruits well, had a horrible team to inherit last year, and we're 1 and 1 this year. We have an inexperienced team, and fundamentally, as head coach, an inexperienced coach.
He will be fine. Let him get all his recruits on a team for once. No, he is not on any hot seat and won't feel the warmth of one in my opinion.
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Marquette bought Wojo's stock at $10 a share and it's stayed pretty much the same with a few small ups and downs along the way. Marquette stockholders are fine with it for now because the stock still has a 5-star rating and everyone expects it to reach $100 in the next eight years before the stock splits for Duke.
If Wojo is still at $10 by the end of this season, there's going to be some major grumblings.
well stated.
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year. Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there. We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.
Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching. The team lacks discipline: COACHING. The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING. Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING. Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING. We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors. That's like having an entire new faculty department. Is he worth it? He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat? Right?
Eh,
This post is exactly why I started the thread about games before thanksgiving.
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You really can't compare Buzz's first couple of years with Wojo's. Buzz was an internal hire. He knew the returning players (and the most important were Srs and weren't going to transfer). In addition, he had a relationship with several of the incoming recruits so they didn't leave. He basically had a full team with experience. Wojo only has one player from two seasons ago and that is Luke.
The team is and program is fine. Will take a few weeks to work out rotations and roles. A few games in Italy wasn't going to provide that. What it did provide (I hope) was team bonding and some chemistry.
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I thought this was an interesting comparison. Fastest MU coaches to 20 losses, since 1950.
McGuire 30 games 10-20 turn out to be the best coach
Wojo 33 games 13-20
Crean 39 games 19-20
O'Neal 39 games 19-20
Dukiet 41 games 21-20 turned out to be the worst coach
To say Wojo is or should be on a leash is asinine.
Inexperience is everything!!
A couple years ago, Calipari had six top 25 HS players including several McD AA's plus a #40 overall recruit. They missed the Big Dance. There were no seniors and only two juniors (who weren't starters).
Was he a bad coach that year? Did he need to learn more on the job? Why was he such a good coach the next couple years?
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year. Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there. We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.
Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching. The team lacks discipline: COACHING. The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING. Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING. Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING. We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors. That's like having an entire new faculty department. Is he worth it? He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat? Right?
Thanks for this excellent well thought out post. I completely agree with your analysis.
As far as I am concerned , Wojo should be feeling some pressure to produce this year. In my book he gets through the non conference season to sort things out with his lineup and then has to deliver at least .500 in conference. Alternatively, he deserves a mulligan if he beats the Badgers, Iowa and LSU.
We are a program with an impressive history, incredible facilities and resources and there are plenty of good coaches who would love to coach here and could win with the talent we have today. He got his job over Cuonzo and Howland who are both legit so I expect him to show some progress.
Yes he is a good recruiter. So was Buzz and So was Crean. We have a school that kids are interested in attending.
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At this point I believe the jury really is out on Wojo as a coach. He might end up being a top tier coach or out the door in two years. His recruiting is solid, but the class this year is very top heavy and not a program changer. Hope he delivers the goods, but not placing any wagers on his future success at this moment.
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At this point I believe the jury really is out on Wojo as a coach. He might end up being a top tier coach or out the door in two years. His recruiting is solid, but the class this year is very top heavy and not a program changer. Hope he delivers the goods, but not placing any wagers on his future success at this moment.
Just don't want him to be majerus 2.0 where all the tremendous success comes after his time here.
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My biggest issue with the hire was the length of time he wax an assistant. Usually there is a reason why it takes so long. I have no doubt he had great interview and the type of guy MU wants a coach. Do not know if that means success follows.
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This thread is ridiculous.
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Does anyone else get the feeling from watching Wojo on the sidelines that he "over-coaches" these guys during games? I understand we are the 3rd youngest team in the country and all, but isn't the micro managing of every cut/play/shot what practice time is for? I have always felt that the best coaches in the country let their teams play loose on gamedays, which includes making mistakes and noy getting the short leash when they do so. Our guys look timid as hell out there. We undoubtedly have talent and athleticism on this roster, young as it might be....I just wish Wojo would let them loose a little more!
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This thread has no place for another ~4 years. (per chicos)
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He was at the BEST basketball program in the country. He was probably getting paid as much as many head coaches. He was working for one of the best basketball minds that has ever lived the last few years as his first assistant . AND there was a strong feeling that Coach K "might" have to retire due to health concerns (back). You certainly can't hold sticking around that situation for a few extra years against him. In fact most would say it was "wise patience". I to believe the jury is still out on Wojo but I wouldn't use the fact he stayed at Duke extra long as a reason to be concerned.
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He was probably getting paid as much as many head coaches.
This is how u say... not a good guess.
He was not. Peep the 990's bruh.
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Just don't want him to be majerus 2.0 where all the tremendous success comes after his time here.
Majerus needed to leave and Marquette needed him to leave.
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My biggest issue with the hire was the length of time he wax an assistant. Usually there is a reason why it takes so long. I have no doubt he had great interview and the type of guy MU wants a coach. Do not know if that means success follows.
Did he go after many jobs prior to Marquette? I was under the impression that he did not.
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Majerus needed to leave and Marquette needed him to leave.
Why? Because we really wanted the rest of the 80s and early 90s to suck?
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As far as I am concerned , Wojo should be feeling some pressure to produce this year.
We are a program with an impressive history, incredible facilities and resources and there are plenty of good coaches who would love to coach here and could win with the talent we have today.
349 out 351 in player experience.
349.
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349 out 351 in player experience.
349.
But in weighted average player experience, more like 275.
BTW, Kentucky last year was #346.
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If anyone is watching the Duke Kentucky game it is very clear the athletic difference between those teams and MU. It's an entirely different level. Its less coaching and more superior talent. It seems like the only way to compete against these type of teams is proficient 3 point shooting. Like golf ... putting is the great equalizer. In B-ball it seems to be great 3 point shooting. Maybe Hauser and others will add that in the future. FYI watch Plumlee and compare to Luke - no comparison in terms of aggressiveness and athleticism.
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349 out 351 in player experience.
349.
I guarantee Coach Pitino or Izzo would have our current team playing at a very high level. Look at Coach Izzo last year , he took a team only slightly more talented than ours to the final four. The biggest disappointment is the defense. Considering Coach Wojos background I thought that would be our strength .
Beat Iowa and all is forgiven .....for a while at least
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If anyone is watching the Duke Kentucky game it is very clear the athletic difference between those teams and MU. It's an entirely different level. Its less coaching and more superior talent. It seems like the only way to compete against these type of teams is proficient 3 point shooting. Like golf ... putting is the great equalizer. In B-ball it seems to be great 3 point shooting. Maybe Hauser and others will add that in the future. FYI watch Plumlee and compare to Luke - no comparison in terms of aggressiveness and athleticism.
Marshall Plumlee is a fricken' grad student. He's probably trying to get another year of eligibility because Coach K doesn't know how to coach a team without a Plumlee anymore. Oh, and Duke's freshman are struggling on defense, too. Three times they've given up the reverse while standing right under the basket.
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Why? Because we really wanted the rest of the 80s and early 90s to suck?
Because he wasn't going to win at Marquette. He was living in Al's shadow and the university was running the basketball program like it was still 1977. He needed to chart his own course and Marquette needed go through hell to understand what it was like to be a modern basketball program. It worked out for both parties.
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But in weighted average player experience, more like 275.
BTW, Kentucky last year was #346.
Some might suggest that a roster stocked with McDonald's AAs and FOUR lottery picks might be an outlier when considering that particular statistic.
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Marshall Plumlee is a fricken' grad student. He's probably trying to get another year of eligibility because Coach K doesn't know how to coach a team without a Plumlee anymore. Oh, and Duke's freshman are struggling on defense, too. Three times they've given up the reverse while standing right under the basket.
So your point is that Plumlee is a grad student and Luke is a junior that explains the difference in athleticism and aggressiveness? And you are equating Duke's freshman's struggles against Kentucky with ours against IUPUI?
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My point is, it's early in the season. BTW, with 7:45 left in the second half, Duke has 12 turnovers and there are 3 freshmen (1 Duke, 2 KY) with four fouls. Clearly, Coach K's not doing his job. He's gotta go.
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Some might suggest that a roster stocked with McDonald's AAs and FOUR lottery picks might be an outlier when considering that particular statistic.
Other tourney teams last year at 330+ effective experience (far less than MU's 275):
UAB #345
Kansas #338 - a #2 seed
It's Indiana!, It's Indiana! #336
Duke #331, national champions
"outliers"?.. *shrug*
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My point is, it's early in the season. BTW, with 7:45 left in the second half, Duke has 12 turnovers and there are 3 freshmen (1 Duke, 2 KY) with four fouls. Clearly, Coach K's not doing his job. He's gotta go.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/WU8eEdMhhXu80/giphy.gif)
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My point is, it's early in the season. BTW, with 7:45 left in the second half, Duke has 12 turnovers and there are 3 freshmen (1 Duke, 2 KY) with four fouls. Clearly, Coach K's not doing his job. He's gotta go.
I said in my post "it's less coaching and more superior talent"...Meaning not blaming Wojo. My point is maybe we are not as athletically talented as the elite and if not than 3 point shooting is key to overcoming that. Please read my post again and tell me what are you drinking - I need some of that to get numb :)
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This thread is ridiculous.
I have read every post, including about 20 after this one, and you have best captured my feelings.
It's such silliness, it doesn't deserve serious comments.
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But in weighted average player experience, more like 275.
BTW, Kentucky last year was #346.
Can you explain what that means?
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I guarantee Coach Pitino or Izzo would have our current team playing at a very high level. Look at Coach Izzo last year , he took a team only slightly more talented than ours to the final four.
That's an impossible assertion to prove. Coach Pitino and Izzo haven't had to work with a team of our talent level in years if ever. You are vastly overestimating our talent at this moment.
Look at Coach Izzo last year , he took a team only slightly more talented than ours to the final four.
??? Last year's Michigan State squad would be our current team 9 out of every 10 games. Nowhere near the same level of talent.
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Can you explain what that means?
Experience, weighted for minutes played. i.e., you may have a couple of frosh who never play.. so what? Who is in your rotation?
Why give Matt Heldt the same weight as Henry Ellenson?
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I said in my post "it's less coaching and more superior talent"...Meaning not blaming Wojo. My point is maybe we are not as athletically talented as the elite and if not than 3 point shooting is key to overcoming that. Please read my post again and tell me what are you drinking - I need some of that to get numb :)
OK, so our coach of two years managed to pull in the highest rated recruit we've had since Doc Rivers and a few other guys who show promise, and his ONE recruit from last year has made great strides over the summer, and you are all kvetching because the first couple games have looked sloppy and disorganized. If we look the same in February, I might be with you. But for now, Wojo and every player gets my benefit of the doubt.
Must be my 50+ years as a Minnesota sports fan. We put up with a lot on the belief that this is the year we're gonna win the big one (how about them Vikes?). No alcohol needed, we're perpetually numb. ;D
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Experience, weighted for minutes played. i.e., you may have a couple of frosh who never play.. so what? Who is in your rotation?
Why give Matt Heldt the same weight as Henry Ellenson?
Makes sense. Thank you
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I guarantee Coach Pitino or Izzo would have our current team playing at a very high level. Look at Coach Izzo last year , he took a team only slightly more talented than ours to the final four. The biggest disappointment is the defense. Considering Coach Wojos background I thought that would be our strength .
Beat Iowa and all is forgiven .....for a while at least
Yes you are correct. Wojo isn't as good as Izzo or Pitino.
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This feels a little like a Ners thread. Not sure why we can't just enjoy the ride for a little while
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Can you explain what that means?
It's a calculation based on players' year of eligibility and how many minutes they play. For MU, our raw figure is a little bit inflated because Luke and Wally count as juniors despite the fact that Luke missed about a full season due to his midyear transfer and Wally played like 8 games at Minnesota. Relative to other teams, it probably balances out since there are tons of players who have had similar circumstances.
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This thread is ridiculous.
But will probably be fun to refer back to in March :)
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Did he go after many jobs prior to Marquette? I was under the impression that he did not.
Not sure about Wojo doing the pursuing, but I do remember Wojo saying that several (many?) programs wanted him throughout his tenure on the Duke bench. I remember him saying that he wanted the "right program" and Marquette "felt right." (not exact quotes).
Now, maybe that simply means that only the likes of Chicago State and New Hampshire were coming around so MU was the first legit school to show him some interest.
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That's an impossible assertion to prove. Coach Pitino and Izzo haven't had to work with a team of our talent level in years if ever. You are vastly overestimating our talent at this moment.
??? Last year's Michigan State squad would be our current team 9 out of every 10 games. Nowhere near the same level of talent.
Michigan State generally has one or two good players surrounded by a bunch of role players. Izzo rarely goes after big recruits. Go back and look at some of the recent years, they have had guys like Austin Thornton who were even worse than Jake. Go back a few years and they had teams anchored by guys like Drew Neitzel and a whole bunch of stiffs, and still managed to get a couple rounds into the tournament. They win through great coaching. Izzo will never accept two bad years in a row.
Our last year team pre Luke, which is far weaker than this years team gave the Spartans a helluva fight.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400608906
Louisville is basically the same thing. Coach gets max production out of all the kids on team. Talent level not that great. Our 2011-12 team had more talent then them for example.
My point is a good coach could take our talent and do something constructive with it. Our objective is to have a winning season now.
Beat Iowa.
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It's a calculation based on players' year of eligibility and how many minutes they play. For MU, our raw figure is a little bit inflated because Luke and Wally count as juniors despite the fact that Luke missed about a full season due to his midyear transfer and Wally played like 8 games at Minnesota. Relative to other teams, it probably balances out since there are tons of players who have had similar circumstances.
So it doesn't actually take games played into account? It just uses academic year?
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Michigan State generally has one or two good players surrounded by a bunch of role players. Izzo rarely goes after big recruits. Go back and look at some of the recent years, they have had guys like Austin Thornton who were even worse than Jake. Go back a few years and they had teams anchored by guys like Drew Neitzel and a whole bunch of stiffs, and still managed to get a couple rounds into the tournament. They win through great coaching. Izzo will never accept two bad years in a row.
Our last year team pre Luke, which is far weaker than this years team gave the Spartans a helluva fight.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400608906
Louisville is basically the same thing. Coach gets max production out of all the kids on team. Talent level not that great. Our 2011-12 team had more talent then them for example.
My point is a good coach could take our talent and do something constructive with it. Our objective is to have a winning season now.
Beat Iowa.
So is your assertion based on high school recruiting rankings? Am I understanding this correctly?
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I never cease to be amazed at the level of stupidity of some posts on Scoop. This topic is one of them.
Look, I'm a perpetual optimist and even I didn't think we were going to be a Top 5 school with a 1 or 2 seed and a legitimate shot at a national title. But if I read some of these posts in here, there is utter disgust that we have growing pains and that our freshman-laden team isn't 2-0, heavily favored against Iowa and ranked.
Here's the facts:
a) The Hillbilly screwed us.
b) Coach Wojo recruited a fine class of freshmen that has considerable promise.
c) He's trying out different things because we need to know what works when we get to conference play.
d) We're making mistakes. He's making mistakes. He'll correct them.
If you go back to our greatest moments, it took Al some time to build what he had here. He joined us for 1964-1965 and promptly had a crappy year, kinda like 2014-2015. Things got better and eventually -- 13 years later -- we won a national title. Don't think for a moment you youngsters that there was not considerable consternation along the way. Missed free throws, bad out-of-bounds plays, questionable officiating, NCAA bias and, yes, double technicals all were part of our lore.
It has been noted before that God only knows what would have happened if Scoop existed when Al was head coach here. Yikes!
Be patient folks. I promise Wojo will make more mistakes. I promise our freshmen will look like, well, freshmen. We're not Duke (yet) and Coach Wojo is not Coach K (yet). Give him time. He deserves the same chance Al got.
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Other tourney teams last year at 330+ effective experience (far less than MU's 275):
UAB #345
Began last year 1-3, with losses to Louisiana-Monroe, South Florida and UNC-Pembroke (who?).
Kansas #338 - a #2 seed
Four McDonald's AAs, including three 5-star freshmen.
Like Kentucky, not remotely comparable to what MU has this year
It's Indiana!, It's Indiana! #336
Lost November game at home to Eastern Washington.
Twice as many McDonald's AAs as MU.
Duke #331, national champions
Seriously?
Four incoming freshman McDonald's AAs, eight overall, three first-round draft picks.
You don't really think this is a reasonable comparison, right?
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and UNC-Pembroke (who?).
Tribal college in Pembroke, North Carolina. Part of the UNC system. One of the few schools to qualify for the NCAA's tribal college exemption for Native American themed mascots. Their mascot is the Braves
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I have read every post, including about 20 after this one, and you have best captured my feelings.
It's such silliness, it doesn't deserve serious comments.
I couldn't have said it better, 82.
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Michigan State generally has one or two good players surrounded by a bunch of role players. Izzo rarely goes after big recruits. Go back and look at some of the recent years, they have had guys like Austin Thornton who were even worse than Jake. Go back a few years and they had teams anchored by guys like Drew Neitzel and a whole bunch of stiffs, and still managed to get a couple rounds into the tournament. They win through great coaching. Izzo will never accept two bad years in a row.
Louisville is basically the same thing. Coach gets max production out of all the kids on team. Talent level not that great. Our 2011-12 team had more talent then them for example.
My point is a good coach could take our talent and do something constructive with it. Our objective is to have a winning season now.
This is so ridiculous, I don't know why I answer, but....
Anyone who thinks our talent is as good this year as Michigan State last year has never watched college basketball. Valentine, Trice, and Dawson were all better -far better - than anyone on this MU team. And they had a ton of experience playing together. One of those stiffs just threw up a triple-double against Kansas tonite. Time to fire Self for not being able to design the right defense.
And Louisville just had two guys drafted by the NBA off of their no-talent team.
The experience level between us and MSU/UL - well, again, no comparison.
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Holy sweet Jesus....
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Not sure about Wojo doing the pursuing, but I do remember Wojo saying that several (many?) programs wanted him throughout his tenure on the Duke bench. I remember him saying that he wanted the "right program" and Marquette "felt right." (not exact quotes).
Now, maybe that simply means that only the likes of Chicago State and New Hampshire were coming around so MU was the first legit school to show him some interest.
I remember reading in multiple articles last year that Wojo turned down the Dayton job in 2011. That was the biggest head coaching job I remember him being linked to.
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Michigan State generally has one or two good players surrounded by a bunch of role players. Izzo rarely goes after big recruits. Go back and look at some of the recent years, they have had guys like Austin Thornton who were even worse than Jake. Go back a few years and they had teams anchored by guys like Drew Neitzel and a whole bunch of stiffs, and still managed to get a couple rounds into the tournament. They win through great coaching. Izzo will never accept two bad years in a row.
Our last year team pre Luke, which is far weaker than this years team gave the Spartans a helluva fight.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400608906
Louisville is basically the same thing. Coach gets max production out of all the kids on team. Talent level not that great. Our 2011-12 team had more talent then them for example.
My point is a good coach could take our talent and do something constructive with it. Our objective is to have a winning season now.
Beat Iowa.
If your standard is that Wojo, in his second year as a head coach, isn't up to par with two Hall of Fame coaches then your standards are too high.
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I continue to find this whole notion laughable. Let's review:
1. A top 10 class. Not a transcendent #1 class like Duke or Kentucky. A good class to be sure, and a good starting point, but not a world changer.
2. Combined with 4 players off of a bad team. And a transfer that wasn't really missed by his former school.
3. A first time head coach.
Wojo is bringing in the types of young men that the MU administration wants. He is being a positive face of the program and projects an image of long-term stability and growth. He has no leash right now. To speak seriously of a leash 35 games into his coaching career is just entitled, no patience, myopic fan speak. Granted, that is the nature of sports society today. Be the change you want to see. Don't buy in.
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I imagine the point that's trying to be made here is ..
In terms of under/over-performing, Wojo is not over-performing. At best, the grade is "incomplete" .. at worst, under-performing. Lock the thread, come back in 10 weeks ..
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I vote we get ners on here for his opinion
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If Marquette finishes below .500 this year, would you put Wojo on the hot seat? How about if we are .500 or below after Year 3?
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Give Wojo a chance. Like aforementioned, we need to know what works for conference. Iowa
should make a good test. Wish Foscher would get the ball more. I did mention before Wojo came,
that ARCHIE MILLER would be a great addition.Still have my Wojo Warrior T-shirt.
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I predicted 17-15 this year. And that was without any injuries (inevitable). IMO, this team is building for next season.
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I wanted Miller. Wojo is also a very good pick.
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I don't think Miller would have come here.
The only other viable choices that Marquette showed interest in was Cuonzo. And time will tell how good a decision that was.
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I vote we get ners on here for his opinion
Ners opinion? MU would be undefeated if Wojo and Buzz and hadn't buried Dawson and run him off, let him run the point and let JD be JD. The weak PG play this year is Derrick's fault for pulling the wool over the eyes of two different coaching staffs with all of his characteriness and knowledge of his offensive and defensive responsibilities. Wojo not using Duane at the point exclusively last year is a sign of his weakness. If Buzz had just played JJJ as a freshman, he would be an all-American this year. This team clearly needs the dynamic scoring option of Deonte Burton. It isn't like the rest of the team is playing good man-defense, anyway. He would be fine in a zone.
3,000 times.
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Ners opinion? MU would be undefeated if Wojo and Buzz and hadn't buried Dawson and run him off, let him run the point and let JD be JD. The weak PG play this year is Derrick's fault for pulling the wool over the eyes of two different coaching staffs with all of his characteriness and knowledge of his offensive and defensive responsibilities. Wojo not using Duane at the point exclusively last year is a sign of his weakness. If Buzz had just played JJJ as a freshman, he would be an all-American this year. This team clearly needs the dynamic scoring option of Deonte Burton. It isn't like the rest of the team is playing good man-defense, anyway. He would be fine in a zone.
3,000 times.
I'm kind of surprised he hasn't resurfaced here under an assumed name. That shows more self-restraint than I thought possible.
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I'm kind of surprised he hasn't resurfaced here under an assumed name. That shows more self-restraint than I thought possible.
I forget. Did he self ban after the stupid survey or did he finally get banned?
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I forget. Did he self ban after the stupid survey or did he finally get banned?
He was going to self-ban. And then claimed that Scoop needed him too much. ("You need me on that wall!!!") And finally him and Texas Western were booted permanently.
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He was going to self-ban. And then claimed that Scoop needed him too much. ("You need me on that wall!!!") And finally him and Texas Western were booted permanently.
Ah yes. So why this silly thread is going on perhaps you, me, chick, brandx, mu82, rocket and willie should go argue poiltics for awhile. We'll accomplish more. ;D
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He was going to self-ban. And then claimed that Scoop needed him too much. ("You need me on that wall!!!") And finally him and Texas Western were booted permanently.
Texas Western showed up on the game chat the other night. Did ners actually say that about needing him on that wall? Jesus, what a waste of basketball talent
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If Marquette finishes below .500 this year, would you put Wojo on the hot seat? How about if we are .500 or below after Year 3?
Holy sweet baby Jesus
It's game three guys. IF we go 5-25, sure. If he goes .500 or around that, this is a non-discussion. Young coach, young team. Last year he was left with a pile of burt's mismatched toys.
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I think he has resurfaced on the scout board. There is a new guy over there who has remarkably similar opinions, though he hasn't really gone over the top yet. (deeznuts)
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Al year 1: 8-18
Al year 2: 14-12
Al year 3: NIT
Al Year 4: NCAAs.
Some Scoopers would have never let Al see year 3. Two games into year 2, it would have been: "I guarantee John Wooden and Adolph Rupp would win with Al's talent."
Stop, just stop.
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Holy sweet baby Jesus
It's game three guys. IF we go 5-25, sure. If he goes .500 or around that, this is a non-discussion. Young coach, young team. Last year he was left with a pile of burt's mismatched toys.
How dare you have a rational thought among all these HOT TAEKS!
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And finally him and Texas Western were booted permanently.
But this might be a reincarnation of one of those two...
Texas Western showed up on the game chat the other night. Did ners actually say that about needing him on that wall? Jesus, what a waste of basketball talent
Ah...and another clue :)
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Marquette bought Wojo's stock at $10 a share and it's stayed pretty much the same with a few small ups and downs along the way. Marquette stockholders are fine with it for now because the stock still has a 5-star rating and everyone expects it to reach $100 in the next eight years before the stock splits for Duke.
If Wojo is still at $10 by the end of this season, there's going to be some major grumblings.
WOJO came public at 10 and was trading at 30 before he had coached a game (hit its high the day HE committed). Closed last year at 15, now trading at its ipo of 10. Currently operating at a loss but rated a buy by most analysts due to projected future earnings.
BUZZ came public at 5 and almost immediately traded down to 2 as Chico led a group of extremely dedicated short sellers. They all were bankrupt when Buzz hit its high (50) after the Big East Championship/Elite 8 season in 2014. Stock collapsed in 2015 when founder and CEO clashed with his board over the future direction of the company.
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But this might be a reincarnation of one of those two...
Ah...and another clue :)
Warrior fish and Marquette fan in NY are my early candidates
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Marquette bought Wojo's stock at $10 a share and it's stayed pretty much the same with a few small ups and downs along the way. Marquette stockholders are fine with it for now because the stock still has a 5-star rating and everyone expects it to reach $100 in the next eight years before the stock splits for Duke.
If Wojo is still at $10 by the end of this season, there's going to be some major grumblings.
Keep in mind he followed a guy who's stock was artificially inflated, the board of directors got involved, there were firings for improprieties and lying by one of his top lieutentents, driving the stock down....further dropped when the former CEO's performance in his final year after analysts predicted stellar results ended up being horrific....well below expectations across the board.....then when the CEO skipped town for less money and trading in a Fortune 100 job for a fortune 1000 job to stay ahead of the SEC.
Thus, it will take a few years for the current CEO to make his mark.
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Keep in mind he followed a guy who's stock was artificially inflated, the SEC got involved, there were firings for improprieties and lying, driving the stock down....further dropped when the former CEO skipped town for less money and trading in a Fortune 100 job for a fortune 1000 job to stay ahead of the SEC.
Thus, it will take a few years for the current CEO to make his mark.
Are we talking the south eastern conference or the securities and exchanges commission?
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Al year 1: 8-18
Al year 2: 14-12
Al year 3: NIT
Al Year 4: NCAAs.
Some Scoopers would have never let Al see year 3. Two games into year 2, it would have been: "I guarantee John Wooden and Adolph Rupp would win with Al's talent."
Stop, just stop.
I love you, man.
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Are we talking the south eastern conference or the securities and exchanges commission?
Edited for clarity
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Caveats:
1) I haven't been able to watch either game (living in Europe 2am tips are a tough sell)
2) I only seemed to be inclined to post when the team is down (so I guess I'm trolling?)
3) I actually really really do want Wojo to work out. He's the "type" of coach we want.
But seriously. This is a top ten recruiting class. The team had a chance to get some real game (euro as it is) experience in Italy. Belmont is a quality squad but they were still a mid-major at home that we had forever to prepare for (and their team was a known quantity while we were not - should have been easier for us to scout them than vice-versa). IUPUI is a 250 cupcake that is the 4th best school in their state that was a missed free-throw away from beating us at home. Why is it that Calipari can take a team of freshmen to the brink of 40-0 and Wojo can't take care of business in his backyard against, at best, schools whose mascots even a savvy fan has to google.
With the amount of $$ MU spends on ball, we need to be in the NCAA every year. Or at the very worst with an off-year here and there. We can't justify that kind of outlay to not being playing meaningful March ball in consecutive years.
Most of the excuses on here for the team's performance to date can be fixed with coaching. The team lacks discipline: COACHING. The team lack cohesiveness: COACHING. Players on the team make poor decisions: COACHING. Lack of progression (or regression) with returning players: COACHING. We are paying this guy the equivalent of a dozen full professors. That's like having an entire new faculty department. Is he worth it? He's a nice guy and is building a great program, etc - but if we lose to any of these 300+ cupcakes, or we aren't at least coming within a good sniff of the dance - he's got to be on the hot seat? Right?
AMEN. I would like Wojo to work out as well, but quite frankly, I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired.
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Al year 1: 8-18
Al year 2: 14-12
Al year 3: NIT
Al Year 4: NCAAs.
Some Scoopers would have never let Al see year 3. Two games into year 2, it would have been: "I guarantee John Wooden and Adolph Rupp would win with Al's talent."
Stop, just stop.
Stop, just stop.
The: year before Al arrived MU was 5-21. His trajectory from season #1 was straight up:
Year 1 : 8 wins (+60%)
Year 2 : 14 wins (+75%)
Year 3 : 21 wins (+50%)
Year 4 -13 : Seashells and Balloons
Wojo so far:
Year 1 : 13 wins (-23.5%)
Way too early to judge Wojo, but any suggestion a) that Scoopers would have been disappointed with Al's immediate turning around of the program or b) Wojo's start looks anything like Al's are fiction.
Numbers (technical truth) without context creating false impressions. Around here that's called a "Chicos" - you're way better than that.
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I predicted 17-15 this year. And that was without any injuries (inevitable). IMO, this team is building for next season.
Like someone posted way back, I don't want to end up a MN Vikings fan - "always building for next year". If HE goes 1-n'-done and Swaggy and JJJ don't progress (not real encouraging so far) I don't see how next year's time is better than this year's. My original post here was NOT that WE NEED WOJO GONE NOW - just wondering at what point his underperformance will start to raise questions.
Does anyone here actually think that through 1 season and 2 games he has not underperformed? Yes he has won some major recruiting battles but again, MU plays the game with a $10 million war chest. And that is my real beef here - if we were running a $4 million, 400k coach operation than yes, absolutely, Wojo has been fine and let's give him the time he needs. But for the money we're paying him (and the resources invested into the program) I am not happy with the results.
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Stop, just stop.
The: year before Al arrived MU was 5-21. His trajectory from season #1 was straight up:
Year 1 : 8 wins (+60%
Year 2 : 14 wins (+75%)
Year 3 : 21 wins (+50%)
Year 4 -13 : Seashells and Balloons
Wojo so far:
Year 1 : 13 wins (-23.5%)
Way too early to judge Wojo, but any suggestion a) that Scoopers would have been disappointed with Al's immediate turning around of the program or b) Wojo's start looks anything like Al's are fiction.
Numbers (technical truth) without context creating false impressions. Around here that's called a "Chicos" - you're way better than that.
Exactly. Despite the immediate dumpster fire created by Buzz, Wojo inherited an incredibly well-respected, well-finances program sitting on over a decade of recent success. He did not come to DePaul. He did not come to MU circa 1964 with a team that had only been to 5 post-seasons in the previous 15 years. There is no reason why Marquette should be a 4-year rebuilding project which is what the ole' sages here seem to want to grant.
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I do not believe he has underperformed. I looked at last year's talent and predicted 10-14 wins. I thought he squeezed ever bit he could have out of that team. I looked at this year's team and saw 17 wins, with progress, as to accept as a given the notion that freshmen and a few guys left from a bad team is going to magically morph into world beaters is simply unreasonable.
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Both Dean Smith and Coach K were burned in effigy on their respective campuses in their early years.
For now R-E-L-A-X.
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I'm kind of surprised he hasn't resurfaced here under an assumed name. That shows more self-restraint than I thought possible.
Maybe not Ners, but this thread has a definite Texas Western type feel to it.
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I do not believe he has underperformed. I looked at last year's talent and predicted 10-14 wins. I thought he squeezed ever bit he could have out of that team. I looked at this year's team and saw 17 wins, with progress, as to accept as a given the notion that freshmen and a few guys left from a bad team is going to magically morph into world beaters is simply unreasonable.
Yes, I understand that if you set low expectations you aren't going to be disappointed. I also at no point have said I expect this team to be world beaters. I do expect them to be on the bubble (so either in the NCAA or well-situated in the NIT). That could (and hopefully) will still happen. I'm just saying IF that doesn't happen (and these first two games have been shaky enough - in terms of coaching - for that to be a legitimate worry), that fan base should be reasonably agitated. I also hope Wojo is thinking that if that doesn't happen the fan base will be reasonably agitated. E.g. his "leash" is tight enough in that we get to the post-season or the seat starts to become warm.
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Realistic expectations. Not low. Looking at the sizes, abilities, experience of the players and trying to figure out what you would predict if it didn't say Marquette on the jersey. And if I looked at any other high major team returning 4 players off of a bad team, one transfer who never played at his old high major school, and a top 10 class, I would be generous to predict more than a 17-15 season. Unless the coach is a different maker and there are precious few of them. Wojo will be fine, but he can't yet spin gold out of straw. Next year.
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Reasons to be optimistic:
As a point guard at Duke, Wojo was known as a leader, hard worker and consummate team player. He made the absolute most of his limited ability, being named Defensive Player of the Year and honorable mention All-American. Sounds like a pretty good mindset and resume for a head coach.
Wojo served for 15 years on the coaching staff at Duke, one of college basketball's top 5 programs, alongside a head coach who belongs on the sport's Mount Rushmore. This guy knows what coaching at the highest level is all about.
While at Duke, Wojo coached the front court players. This includes Jabari Parker and Mason Plumlee (both 1st round NBA draft picks). This suggests he understands how to help players at any position, not just guard.
Oh yeah, he was also on the coaching staff of 2 Olympic gold medal teams. Teams that included Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant and Chris Paul, among others. He's worked with the best basketball players in the world.
Even with all that experience, he's still young — just 39. His best days as a head coach are ahead of him.
He hit the ground running at Marquette, landing a Top 10 recruiting class in his very first season. You can't win without talent. So at least that part of the equation seems to be set.
Of course, past performance is no guarantee of future results. Great assistants don't automatically make great head coaches. But I'm definitely excited about where Marquette basketball is headed.
BTW, that same head coach at Duke went 38-47 in his first 3 seasons there. No NCAA appearances. Best finish in the ACC: 5th. In fact, he didn't make the Big Dance until his 9th season as a head coach.
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Exactly. Despite the immediate dumpster fire created by Buzz, Wojo inherited an incredibly well-respected, well-finances program sitting on over a decade of recent success. He did not come to DePaul. He did not come to MU circa 1964 with a team that had only been to 5 post-seasons in the previous 15 years. There is no reason why Marquette should be a 4-year rebuilding project which is what the ole' sages here seem to want to grant.
Being at "an incredibly well-respected, well-finances program sitting on over a decade of recent success" doesn't mean much when a coach takes over an "immediate dumpster fire" created by the previous coach.
Last year's team had no BE-caliber PG, one big man (who was coming off an injury and wasn't even eligible until the ninth game), a post-grad volume scorer, an undersized frosh shooting guard, a rebounder with bad knees, a frosh shooter, an underachieving soph, Juan Anderson, and two guys who transferred out. In summary, Wojo didn't have many pieces in place who were going to help the program going forward. Last season was ugly, but what exactly were you expecting from that group?
This year, the team added 5 freshmen and a transfer who has 62 minutes of D1 experience. Yes, the recruiting class is as good a class at MU in a long, long time...but they're still freshmen. Ideally, most of them would be role players seeing 8-12 minutes a game. Instead, they're playing big minutes, ready or not. There are going to be a lot of ups and downs with a team like that but, at season's end, you hope to see overall improvement heading into next season.
Turning around a "dumpster fire" isn't a 1-2 year process.
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Yes, I understand that if you set low expectations you aren't going to be disappointed. I also at no point have said I expect this team to be world beaters. I do expect them to be on the bubble (so either in the NCAA or well-situated in the NIT). That could (and hopefully) will still happen. I'm just saying IF that doesn't happen (and these first two games have been shaky enough - in terms of coaching - for that to be a legitimate worry), that fan base should be reasonably agitated. I also hope Wojo is thinking that if that doesn't happen the fan base will be reasonably agitated. E.g. his "leash" is tight enough in that we get to the post-season or the seat starts to become warm.
Wojo shouldn't give two sh!ts about the fanbase's level of agitation.
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Texas Western showed up on the game chat the other night. Did ners actually say that about needing him on that wall?
No. I was just providing context.
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Stop, just stop.
The: year before Al arrived MU was 5-21. His trajectory from season #1 was straight up:
Year 1 : 8 wins (+60%)
Year 2 : 14 wins (+75%)
Year 3 : 21 wins (+50%)
Year 4 -13 : Seashells and Balloons
Wojo so far:
Year 1 : 13 wins (-23.5%)
Way too early to judge Wojo, but any suggestion a) that Scoopers would have been disappointed with Al's immediate turning around of the program or b) Wojo's start looks anything like Al's are fiction.
Lenny:
You can play with statistics all you want to, but here are the facts:
1) The team was so bad the year before Al came that we fired our head coach. Al was playing with crap. So was Wojo. Plus, Wojo had only eight guys to work with in an era that was far different than anything Al coached in. We forget quickly how depleted our bench was last year and how several teams beat us by wearing us down.
Trust me, I try to forget last year as much as I can. It keeps sneaking into my nightmares more than I would like.
2) Al went and recruited his first five-star, George Thompson, just as Wojo did in Henry Ellenson. The jury is still out on what Wojo does with Henry but you do not put the guy on a short leash over two games, one of which was not won! There's a lot of coaching and work left to be done on Henry.
3) As Al once said, "the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores!"
4) If the Internet existed in 1967 and the team had the following it does today, YES, AL WOULD BE ON THE HOT SEAT WITH THE SCOOP CROWD. I don't want to think what this group would have done when we went to the NIT (even though, in those days, the NIT title meant something bigger than today). This group would have roasted Al on a spit on Wisconsin Avenue many times over!
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Reasons to be optimistic:
Listen - I want to be optimistic - I really do. I sat through all of last season listening to the reasons to be optimistic. One of the biggest was "wait until next year, when he has his guys, when they're in his system". I guess this is why I posted this after only two games. It does not sound like there "structural break" from last year - same shoddy defense, same poor decision making. Why aren't "Wojo's guys" playing like "Wojo's guys"? A concern is that maybe last year they were playing like "Wojo's guys" and this is his brand of ball. I realize that nothing would indicate that SHOULD be his brand of ball but what happens on the court speaks for itself. Maybe we see "Brand Wojo" by season's end - I hope so. But if that doesn't happen let's put him on the seat eh?
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Wojo shouldn't give two sh!ts about the fanbase's level of agitation.
Are you kidding? What pays his salary? What supports the program. This isn't some abstract purist pursuit - this a business. If your shareholders aren't happy you get a new CEO!
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Just don't want him to be majerus 2.0 where all the tremendous success comes after his time here.
Amen.
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Are you kidding? What pays his salary? What supports the program. This isn't some abstract purist pursuit - this a business. If your shareholders aren't happy you get a new CEO!
If shareholders were as impatient and irrational as fans, there would be a lot more CEO turnover.
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To clarify. NOT saying Wojo should be fired now (even if that were realistic. NOT saying Wojo's seat is even warm now. AM saying that if we miss the post season this year his seat SHOULD be warm. AM saying that given the very small sample of these first two games missing the post-season doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. That's it!
That being said - beat Iowa and all's forgiven. :D
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Jaysus - how much more trolling do I have to do to get beyond "walk on"?
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To clarify. NOT saying Wojo should be fired now (even if that were realistic. NOT saying Wojo's seat is even warm now. AM saying that if we miss the post season this year his seat SHOULD be warm. AM saying that given the very small sample of these first two games missing the post-season doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. That's it!
That being said - beat Iowa and all's forgiven. :D
That might be what you're saying, but what it sounds like is "I'm an impatient, irrational fan who wants a bad, talent-deprived team turned into a sure-fire Tourney team in 20 months and 1 recruiting class or else the coach should be concerned about his job status."
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I guarantee Coach Pitino or Izzo would have our current team playing at a very high level. Look at Coach Izzo last year , he took a team only slightly more talented than ours to the final four. The biggest disappointment is the defense. Considering Coach Wojos background I thought that would be our strength .
Beat Iowa and all is forgiven .....for a while at least
50 years of coaching experience. Not a good comparison.
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That being said - beat Iowa and all's forgiven. :D
Maybe you should watch this one
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Ah yes. So why this silly thread is going on perhaps you, me, chick, brandx, mu82, rocket and willie should go argue poiltics for awhile. We'll accomplish more. ;D
C'mon, Glow. It's good to have basketball back so I can spend most of the time here.
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I never cease to be amazed at the level of stupidity of some posts on Scoop. This topic is one of them.
Look, I'm a perpetual optimist and even I didn't think we were going to be a Top 5 school with a 1 or 2 seed and a legitimate shot at a national title. But if I read some of these posts in here, there is utter disgust that we have growing pains and that our freshman-laden team isn't 2-0, heavily favored against Iowa and ranked.
It has been noted before that God only knows what would have happened if Scoop existed when Al was head coach here. Yikes!
Be patient folks. I promise Wojo will make more mistakes. I promise our freshmen will look like, well, freshmen. We're not Duke (yet) and Coach Wojo is not Coach K (yet). Give him time. He deserves the same chance Al got.
Al would reach into the computer and punch the idiot.
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Jaysus - how much more trolling do I have to do to get beyond "walk on"?
You're only at 26 posts! Hell Chicos and Sultan could do that in an hour or less.
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Yes, I understand that if you set low expectations you aren't going to be disappointed. I also at no point have said I expect this team to be world beaters. I do expect them to be on the bubble (so either in the NCAA or well-situated in the NIT). That could (and hopefully) will still happen. I'm just saying IF that doesn't happen (and these first two games have been shaky enough - in terms of coaching - for that to be a legitimate worry), that fan base should be reasonably agitated. I also hope Wojo is thinking that if that doesn't happen the fan base will be reasonably agitated. E.g. his "leash" is tight enough in that we get to the post-season or the seat starts to become warm.
What, exactly, about this roster makes you think they should be on the bubble? Any historic comparisons?
Give him 4 years. Unless he does something illegal/NCAA-illegal.
Organizations that have continuity tend to have continued success. Look at the packers, steelers, etc. A long term plan is necessary. Turning over coaches frequently is rarely a recipe for success.
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Are you kidding? What pays his salary? What supports the program. This isn't some abstract purist pursuit - this a business. If your shareholders aren't happy you get a new CEO!
I think most MU fans have a better understanding of what it takes to build success.
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AMEN. I would like Wojo to work out as well, but quite frankly, I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired.
We've only been a bad team for 2 years. It's too early to tell regarding this season. Have some patience, FFS.
Do you realize how spoiled we have been as fans?
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It should be noted we probably would've won a couple more if Carlino hadn't had a concussion.
And we would have been in the NCAA Tournament if we had one of either Dean Meminger, Lloyd Walton, or Sam Worthen at the point.
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Assistant for a long time is very different than you being the head coach.
Two words: Hank Raymonds...
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Majerus needed to leave and Marquette needed him to leave.
They were running out of gym towels?
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And we would have been in the NCAA Tournament if we had one of either Dean Meminger, Lloyd Walton, or Sam Worthen at the point.
It was amazing how quick Worthen was.
Is he still with the Globetrotters?
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4) If the Internet existed in 1967 and the team had the following it does today, YES, AL WOULD BE ON THE HOT SEAT WITH THE SCOOP CROWD. I don't want to think what this group would have done when we went to the NIT (even though, in those days, the NIT title meant something bigger than today). This group would have roasted Al on a spit on Wisconsin Avenue many times over!
dg-
You're wrong. I was there (I think you were too) and I was a fanatical supporter who never missed a game. Criticism of Al didn't come early when he was rescusitating a program that was on life support when he arrived. It was AFTER Al had established himself and MU was a powerhouse that the critics arrived.
Some were the entitled folks who weren't around for or chose not to remember the horrid condition of MU basketball when Al took over. Others were the "Chico faction" who didn't like Al's recruiting (too poor, too black, too low SATs), his "Just win, baby" philosophy and his battles with the powerful folks in charge at the NCAA.
But again, my recollection is the critics didn't emerge until excellence on the court started to be taken for granted.
Wojo arrived in the midst of what we hope will continue to be our second best era in MU history. Like the last 8 or 9 years in the McGuire era the fan base is a bit entitled. Right or wrong, the entitled will always be quicker to criticize.
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And we would have been in the NCAA Tournament if we had one of either Dean Meminger, Lloyd Walton, or Sam Worthen at the point.
I don't know they'd be pretty old now days. Might be better to have a younger person playing point.
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dg-
You're wrong. I was there (I think you were too) and I was a fanatical supporter who never missed a game. Criticism of Al didn't come early when he was rescusitating a program that was on life support when he arrived. It was AFTER Al had established himself and MU was a powerhouse that the critics arrived.
But again, my recollection is the critics didn't emerge until excellence on the court started to be taken for granted.
Glad to read that, Lenny. It is exactly as I remember. And the most howling came in the year that they won it all. If Scoop was around then, I'm guessing the discussions over Bill Neary would have come close to matching those over Derrick.
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Only thing I can contribute to this thread at this point
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/h5YJdPfkSbcRO/200.gif)
(http://cdn.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/what-not-to-say-to-short-girls-3.gif)
(http://media.giphy.com/media/QkGju7KxhU03m/giphy.gif)
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Glad to read that, Lenny. It is exactly as I remember. And the most howling came in the year that they won it all. If Scoop was around then, I'm guessing the discussions over Bill Neary would have come close to matching those over Derrick.
Yeah, Until the tournament 76-77 would have been ugly if Scoop was around.
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Only thing I can contribute to this thread at this point
(http://media.giphy.com/media/QkGju7KxhU03m/giphy.gif)
An Emma Stone gif is a positive contribution to any thread.
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When I first saw this post I assumed it was Wojo's leash with his players. The fact that it is the Admin's leash on Wojo is just fantastic. The Internet is amazing.
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Two words: Hank Raymonds...
I am still pissed off about the loss to Miami of Ohio. We had a clean shot at another title that year.
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I am still pissed off about the loss to Miami of Ohio. We had a clean shot at another title that year.
I remember thinking: this is the beginning of the end.
We had everyone back but Bo.
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I remember thinking: this is the beginning of the end.
We had everyone back but Bo.
I can remember sitting in the stands at Market Square thinking the same thing. It was truly an opportunity wasted. We had an incredible lineup.
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It was the beginning of the end and took too many too long to realize it. Still a dark day in history of the program.
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Have some patience, FFS.
Make this your signature.
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It was amazing how quick Worthen was.
Is he still with the Globetrotters?
He never actually played for the Globetrotters. He was the coach of the Washington Generals, which doesn't exist as a team anymore.
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I remember thinking: this is the beginning of the end.
We had everyone back but Bo.
That game showed what a crap shoot the NCAA tournament can be. While Raymonds' winning percentage was less than Al's, no subsequest coach has come close to Hank's winning percentage. His recruiting was on an uptick, when he turned the program over to Majerus, which was the end.
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So it doesn't actually take games played into account? It just uses academic year?
Year of eligibility, so generally yes--redshirts and transfers are exceptions. I think this poses more of a problem for juco players who are listed as juniors but have no D1 experience. With 351 teams, it's probably a hassle to dig into everyone's minutes and games ever played, so this is a reasonable enough shortcut.
ADDITIONALLY... looking at Pomeroy's experience rankings today, there are almost 80 teams that don't have heights or eligibility years listed at this point in the season. So at this stage MU is #273 out of 282 in the experience category. Again, we have a really young group.
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Make this your signature.
Done.
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I think he has resurfaced on the scout board. There is a new guy over there who has remarkably similar opinions, though he hasn't really gone over the top yet. (deeznuts)
I present to you.
http://www.scout.com/college/marquette/forums/2850-mens-hoops/14300623-90-of-good-teams-can-hit-3-s?s=415&page=2
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It was amazing how quick Worthen was.
Is he still with the Globetrotters?
That's why they called him Sudden Sam. One of the greatest to ever come out of NYC. Incredible talent
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Sam and Artie Green both are NYC playground legends.
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An Emma Stone gif is a positive contribution to any thread.
She is ugly. Not sure what it is.. well, her mouth, but not sure how to describe it. But she looks like a goat turd.
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I've only listened to the games (all two of them) on the radio, but nobody (at least not yet) seems to want to be "the guy."
Game is on the line and the team is in time-out. Which current player beats his chest and says "give me the ball!?"
We had a guy who I think would have done that. He would have been that guy. He's now at Iowa State.
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To be fair, the guy at Iowa State said that every time he touched the ball.
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She is ugly. Not sure what it is.. well, her mouth, but not sure how to describe it. But she looks like a goat turd.
(http://www.muscoop.com/uploads/cohen.png)
Maybe it's that your eyes aren't working properly. She's not drop-dead beautiful but come on.....
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She is ugly. Not sure what it is.. well, her mouth, but not sure how to describe it. But she looks like a goat turd.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/fb0875f182f29fa753415dcd6a5812a5/tumblr_n4kc2ffJui1txb8sho1_500.gif)
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(http://www.muscoop.com/uploads/cohen.png)
Maybe it's that your eyes aren't working properly. She's not drop-dead beautiful but come on.....
Maybe Jay Bee has a stable of hot, young models that clouds his vision.
(That was a joke.)
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Maybe Jay Bee has a stable of hot, young models that clouds his vision.
(That was a joke.)
Qualify "models", non è?
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She is ugly. Not sure what it is.. well, her mouth, but not sure how to describe it. But she looks like a goat turd.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/dYM1bHuaLiquQ/giphy.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/bpwZiGo.gif)
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/FzZJhjR9vHBC/200.gif)
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(http://www.muscoop.com/uploads/cohen.png)
Just to comment on this pic - it's the best I could find (since we hadn't had a Cohen pic up before), and the eye-roll is awesome!
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dg-
You're wrong. I was there (I think you were too) and I was a fanatical supporter who never missed a game. Criticism of Al didn't come early when he was rescusitating a program that was on life support when he arrived. It was AFTER Al had established himself and MU was a powerhouse that the critics arrived.
Some were the entitled folks who weren't around for or chose not to remember the horrid condition of MU basketball when Al took over. Others were the "Chico faction" who didn't like Al's recruiting (too poor, too black, too low SATs), his "Just win, baby" philosophy and his battles with the powerful folks in charge at the NCAA.
But again, my recollection is the critics didn't emerge until excellence on the court started to be taken for granted.
Wojo arrived in the midst of what we hope will continue to be our second best era in MU history. Like the last 8 or 9 years in the McGuire era the fan base is a bit entitled. Right or wrong, the entitled will always be quicker to criticize.
The point wasn't how Al was treated then. The point is that, in this day and age, posts like "Al's Leash" would have surfaced two games into his second season and the hot seat would have gotten warm by the end of his second season.
Same would have happened to K at Duke and many others. They were fortunate to have been in charge of struggling programs before this era of instant gratification and abject silliness.
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Emma Stone looks like sh1t. Puke.
Dale Jones - watch out for him on the boards tomorrow night.
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This thread is embarrassing.
You don't hire a coach who has no head coaching experience and expect him to rebuild your program in 1 year.
We have 1 of the youngest teams in d1..... Take a breath and let the players and the coach learn and grow.
He didn't inherit the amigos and we aren't rebuilding with JC players. It's going to take some time.
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Just to comment on this pic - it's the best I could find (since we hadn't had a Cohen pic up before), and the eye-roll is awesome!
This pic has cracked me up every time I open Scoop. The thought bubble clearly reads "Imma let you finish your silly thread but.....seriously? I'll be doing this all season"
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To be fair, the guy at Iowa State said that every time he touched the ball.
That is fair. And I'll take it.
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This pic has cracked me up every time I open Scoop. The thought bubble clearly reads "Imma let you finish your silly thread but.....seriously? I'll be doing this all season"
I vote that you choose candid shots all year long for STOG.
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Year of eligibility, so generally yes--redshirts and transfers are exceptions. I think this poses more of a problem for juco players who are listed as juniors but have no D1 experience. With 351 teams, it's probably a hassle to dig into everyone's minutes and games ever played, so this is a reasonable enough shortcut.
ADDITIONALLY... looking at Pomeroy's experience rankings today, there are almost 80 teams that don't have heights or eligibility years listed at this point in the season. So at this stage MU is #273 out of 282 in the experience category. Again, we have a really young group.
So is it fair to say that this stat would skew us upward? Luke and Duane are both third year players but have played less games than some players get in a single season? And to a lesser degree, Mache and Wally would also skew upward?
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So is it fair to say that this stat would skew us upward? Luke and Duane are both third year players but have played less games than some players get in a single season? And to a lesser degree, Mache and Wally would also skew upward?
Luke definitely, since he's a junior with about one season's equivalent of games, and he plays a lot of minutes for us. Less so for Wally...doesn't play a ton. Duane is listed as a sophomore, his year of eligibility. Mache doesn't play enough to register at all.
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Tonight's game is a meaningful data point in Wojo's evaluation.
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Tonight's game is a meaningful data point in Wojo's evaluation.
Whatever you do...do not think about next year possibly without Henry & adding only S.Hauser :-\
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Well, you can say one thing for Wojo, at least he knew what he was doing when he scheduled the creamiest of cupcakes. Of course, that could backfire too.
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Whatever you do...do not think about next year possibly without Henry & adding only S.Hauser :-\
And Rousey who can actually hit a 3 pointer
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Tonight's game is a meaningful data point in Wojo's evaluation.
ouch
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ouch
How much more of this do we have to take before the "old guard" on here can at least admit Wojo is under performing? Yes, give him the rest of the season before the seat really gets warm, but he's fighting an uphill battle.
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WoJo is one season plus three games into his head coaching career. Do you think coaches grow and learn from experience? As frustrating as this is so far this year, he and the team need time. No miracles happening here.
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How much more of this do we have to take before the "old guard" on here can at least admit Wojo is under performing? Yes, give him the rest of the season before the seat really gets warm, but he's fighting an uphill battle.
The old guard saw Crean's first two years, and then two years later we were in the Final Four. The old guard saw KO's first three years, and two years later we were in the Sweet 16. It can work the other way, too.
This is why a good Athletic Director looks at the big picture, what the coach inherited, who left, what the schedule is, the circumstances, etc,etc. Wojo might not work out, that's fine. Hell, I've bitched here for years that we keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over again by hiring top assistants. Sometimes it works out, but rest assured it always takes more seasoning than hiring an established coach. That's just the deal.
So the old guard likely has a bit of experience with this and we'll see how it goes. It doesn't mean those calling for his head are wrong, but we're going to exercise some wisdom, patience, etc....collect a lot more data as it were.
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The old guard saw Crean's first two years, and then two years later we were in the Final Four. The old guard saw KO's first three years, and two years later we were in the Sweet 16. It can work the other way, too.
This is why a good Athletic Director looks at the big picture, what the coach inherited, who left, what the schedule is, the circumstances, etc,etc. Wojo might not work out, that's fine. Hell, I've bitched here for years that we keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over again by hiring top assistants. Sometimes it works out, but rest assured it always takes more seasoning than hiring an established coach. That's just the deal.
So the old guard likely has a bit of experience with this and we'll see how it goes. It doesn't mean those calling for his head are wrong, but we're going to exercise some wisdom, patience, etc....collect a lot more data as it were.
Sure - but the point that none of the "old guard" seem to want to engage with is that Wojo walked into a situation with vastly different resources than KO (or even Crean). I have no problem with someone taking 4 years to "rebuild"? (is it really a rebuild job after only one off year?) if they have median-level resources. But Wojo arrived to a school resourced in the top 5 (3?) percentage of all college programs. You don't get 4 years in that kind of situation - that's a bad return on your investment. I'll give patience to a guy we're paying 400k to who has a 3 million budget. For 1.5 million with a 10 million war chest back-to-back meaningless March is unacceptable. As other have mentioned - where was the JUCO or grad-transfer that fills the missing piece to win this year? Wojo didn't get that. Add that on to his very questionable preparation and game coaching and what are we paying him for. Potential? Hell - half the commentators on this board have potential - and can put together a Prezi presentation too.
If we are paying top dollar we need to see top (or at least consistent, or at least competitive) results. I mean being in the top 70 teams year on year (i.e. making at least the NIT) shouldn't be that much of a stretch if we're in the top 10 in spending. If our spend isn't getting us there than let's dial back the funding and hire Rob Jeter.
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"not" want to engage with.
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Sure - but the point that none of the "old guard" seem to want to engage with is that Wojo walked into a situation with vastly different resources than KO (or even Crean). I have no problem with someone taking 4 years to "rebuild"? (is it really a rebuild job after only one off year?) if they have median-level resources. But Wojo arrived to a school resourced in the top 5 (3?) percentage of all college programs. You don't get 4 years in that kind of situation - that's a bad return on your investment. I'll give patience to a guy we're paying 400k to who has a 3 million budget.
All the resources in the world weren't going to make up for the incomplete roster he inherited.
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ISE, couldn't agree more about the JUCO or grad transfer that Wojo failed to land -- or didn't even bother to try for. While not the sole source of our problems, it was foolish of Wojo to go into a season with only Heldt as a frontcourt backup. That kind of a 'plan' is what leaves you with Anim, a converted wing as the defacto reserve big.
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"Didn't even bother to try for?"
He went after Shonn Miller and Damian Lee and lost them to Michigan and Louisville respectively. He also was also looking at a number of Jucos, who he either ended up not offering or not landing.
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Point is, he came up empty.
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The last thing Wojo should be criticized for is his recruiting, especially when it isn't fully understood the limitations that MU might place on him for Juco transfers.
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Sure - but the point that none of the "old guard" seem to want to engage with is that Wojo walked into a situation with vastly different resources than KO (or even Crean). I have no problem with someone taking 4 years to "rebuild"? (is it really a rebuild job after only one off year?) if they have median-level resources. But Wojo arrived to a school resourced in the top 5 (3?) percentage of all college programs. You don't get 4 years in that kind of situation - that's a bad return on your investment. I'll give patience to a guy we're paying 400k to who has a 3 million budget. For 1.5 million with a 10 million war chest back-to-back meaningless March is unacceptable. As other have mentioned - where was the JUCO or grad-transfer that fills the missing piece to win this year? Wojo didn't get that. Add that on to his very questionable preparation and game coaching and what are we paying him for. Potential? Hell - half the commentators on this board have potential - and can put together a Prezi presentation too.
If we are paying top dollar we need to see top (or at least consistent, or at least competitive) results. I mean being in the top 70 teams year on year (i.e. making at least the NIT) shouldn't be that much of a stretch if we're in the top 10 in spending. If our spend isn't getting us there than let's dial back the funding and hire Rob Jeter.
Have some patience. It's the third game of the season, it is an incomplete roster...just as it was last year and the year prior with Buzz. That's the deal.
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Have some patience. It's the third game of the season, it is an incomplete roster...just as it was last year and the year prior with Buzz. That's the deal.
Last year's incomplete roster - on Buzz. This year's incomplete roster has to be on Wojo. If he wasn't committed to putting DU at point don't you think he should have begged, borrowed or stolen a PG with some experience from somewhere? And had back up options until one accepted? I'm actually thrilled with his frontcourt - this is the biggest we've been in 20 years!
For everything wrong with the Phony Cowboy he was able to cobble together complete rosters years after year - surely someone with the same resources (and a much more decent person with a much better pedigree) could have put together a full team a year into the job?
Again - I think the level of patience has to be relative to the level of resources - Wojo has everything at his disposal. If we make a tourney this year then fine - he's on an upward progression and all is well. But I think these three games are a worrying indication that that might not be in the cards (in fact I don't think a .500 season is any certainty). He may have inherited an empty cupboard but he has also been given all the grocery money he could possibly want. It shouldn't take 3 years to fill it (and again - if HE leaves how is next year's team possibly better than this year's? Progression? Doesn't seem to be happening with DU and JJJ).
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"Didn't even bother to try for?"
He went after Shonn Miller and Damian Lee and lost them to Michigan Connecticut and Louisville respectively. He also was also looking at a number of Jucos, who he either ended up not offering or not landing.
Small fix there ;)
He tried for big fish to be sure, my question is definitely more about the next tier guys. After missing out on Miller, Lee, and a couple big names, there wasn't much of a push for guys like Rafael Maia, Anton Grady, Galal Cancer, Austin McBroom, or Alex Mitola. At the JUCO level we missed O'Field, but didn't seem to go hard after guys like Tyrone Outlaw, Shakir Brown, Deshawn Freeman, Marcus Johnson, or Dequon Miller.
I know I wasn't alone this past offseason saying we had a desperate need for a veteran PG and some grit inside. Those needs feel even bigger now than they did this past summer. As far as who he could and couldn't take, obviously we don't know, but I find it hard to believe that some of the grad transfers (3 of the 4 I listed were Ivy Leaguers) or JUCOs wouldn't have been acceptable, especially as we did have offers out.
The point PT made the other day about Henry being the best thing and worst thing to happen to Wojo may be accurate. I think our expectations were higher with such a phenomenal talent coming in. It's entirely possible the plan is more long term and the staff is looking at 1-2 more years before they will be truly competitive. It just feels (especially after a couple years of disappointment) that this chance with Henry is one we really shouldn't waste because who knows when we'll have a player like this again if he ends up leaving early. There was experience to be had that went to equal or lesser programs. Right now, it feels like we really could have used that experience.
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Are we sure 1SE isn't Ners?
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Are we sure 1SE isn't Ners?
Yes. This wasn't a "fire Wojo" thread - just a thread that if this season disappoints (we miss the NIT) then his seat should be quite warm next year (i.e. if he disappoints again in year 3 then he's gone at the end of the season). This is based on missing the NIT being under-performance for a coach at a top-10 funded program in his second year. I realize others would not consider that under-performance but then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Last year's incomplete roster - on Buzz. This year's incomplete roster has to be on Wojo. If he wasn't committed to putting DU at point don't you think he should have begged, borrowed or stolen a PG with some experience from somewhere? And had back up options until one accepted? I'm actually thrilled with his frontcourt - this is the biggest we've been in 20 years!
For everything wrong with the Phony Cowboy he was able to cobble together complete rosters years after year - surely someone with the same resources (and a much more decent person with a much better pedigree) could have put together a full team a year into the job?
Again - I think the level of patience has to be relative to the level of resources - Wojo has everything at his disposal. If we make a tourney this year then fine - he's on an upward progression and all is well. But I think these three games are a worrying indication that that might not be in the cards (in fact I don't think a .500 season is any certainty). He may have inherited an empty cupboard but he has also been given all the grocery money he could possibly want. It shouldn't take 3 years to fill it (and again - if HE leaves how is next year's team possibly better than this year's? Progression? Doesn't seem to be happening with DU and JJJ).
You don't just get to go to the player store to assemble your roster from a catalog. He knows what he wants, he got some of those guys but not all. Young guys, very little experience and we have a few roster holes.
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Are we sure 1SE isn't Ners?
1SE joined the site a week to the day before Ners was banned. Not impossible that he might have created a safety account or two, but probably not him.
No idea if Wojo's seat is hot at all. This young season has been very frustrating, but I do think it's significant that we have zero scholarship seniors and no real experience on this team. Yes, I do feel there are coaching issues, and I think after missing out on Lee and Miller, Wojo made a mistake in not going harder after some of the lesser known grad transfers (especially at the point, Galal Cancer would look fantastic here right now), but I think he at least deserves the chance to play with his own players. In theory, this is the team he built, especially as Jajuan Johnson is the only player on our roster that ever played for the old coach, but with no experience it's hard to really evaluate.
Last year with mostly Buzz's players and virtually no depth, it's hard to blame any coach for how that went. This year I guess my main hope is to see some legitimate progress. These guys need to play with more energy, emotion, and smarts. I want to see some semblance of defensive knowledge by the end of the season. If you're going to preach this man defense and recruit guys around that, then we have to see it on the court. But unless this year and next are absolute train wrecks, I think Wojo deserves at the minimum the chance to coach through 2017-18. Let's see how he does with his own recruits as upperclassmen. Guys like Duane, Sandy, Haanif, and Traci will likely look a lot different as juniors and seniors than they do now. If he can't win with his own guys once they're experienced, then it will be time to look at cutting the cord. Now is definitely too soon to seriously consider it.
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You don't just get to go to the player store to assemble your roster from a catalog. He knows what he wants, he got some of those guys but not all. Young guys, very little experience and we have a few roster holes.
Yeah, but you do. And if option 1 doesn't work out you go to option 2. And if that doesn't work out you go to option 3. Roster management is a big part of the job and Wojo hasn't done it well.
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1SE joined the site a week to the day before Ners was banned. Not impossible that he might have created a safety account or two, but probably not him.
No idea if Wojo's seat is hot at all. This young season has been very frustrating, but I do think it's significant that we have zero scholarship seniors and no real experience on this team. Yes, I do feel there are coaching issues, and I think after missing out on Lee and Miller, Wojo made a mistake in not going harder after some of the lesser known grad transfers (especially at the point, Galal Cancer would look fantastic here right now), but I think he at least deserves the chance to play with his own players. In theory, this is the team he built, especially as Jajuan Johnson is the only player on our roster that ever played for the old coach, but with no experience it's hard to really evaluate.
Last year with mostly Buzz's players and virtually no depth, it's hard to blame any coach for how that went. This year I guess my main hope is to see some legitimate progress. These guys need to play with more energy, emotion, and smarts. I want to see some semblance of defensive knowledge by the end of the season. If you're going to preach this man defense and recruit guys around that, then we have to see it on the court. But unless this year and next are absolute train wrecks, I think Wojo deserves at the minimum the chance to coach through 2017-18. Let's see how he does with his own recruits as upperclassmen. Guys like Duane, Sandy, Haanif, and Traci will likely look a lot different as juniors and seniors than they do now. If he can't win with his own guys once they're experienced, then it will be time to look at cutting the cord. Now is definitely too soon to seriously consider it.
I agree with everything with the exception that that timeline is too long. The NIT isn't a huge hurdle - teams at are caliber of resource shouldn't be out of the post season for 4 years. Plus - let's give him to March 2018 - we haven't seen any improvement, his guys haven't panned out - we bring in someone new - you all give them another 4 years to get it together - that's how you end up a St. Louis, or a DePaul - and again - if you're happy with that fine (I'm not really) - but we can get to that outcome spending a lot less money on the program.
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Wojo obviously tried to get a few grads or JUCOs and it didn't happen. No one is 100% on recruiting. Wojo has done a great job on that front.
It's also entirely possible he decided this was his roster and this is how he wanted to build the team - as a long-term product. Not short term results. I'm sure he's also discussed with his bosses this approach.
I don't particularly have a problem with this approach. I even applaud it. Long term vision with organizational continuity is the recipe for success.
I also don't understand the argument of "the school has a lot of money and Wojo is getting paid" as a knock against Wojo/this team. What do you REALLY expect those finances to amount to? It's not like we're paying the players. How do you see those finances impacting the program directly? Other than maybe attracting a head coach, I don't see direct translation to success. And even re: head coach, we saw in the last two searches, we aren't pulling top notch talent from other schools.
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Jaysus, *our* caliber of resource.
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Yeah, but you do. And if option 1 doesn't work out you go to option 2. And if that doesn't work out you go to option 3. Roster management is a big part of the job and Wojo hasn't done it well.
You seem to be implying that Wojo/MU should get whomever they want. And it's a failing if they don't, based on the $$ we spend. That makes no sense. Plus, what if Wojo had an option 1, 2, 3, 4 and then quit before option 5 because option 5 was a 1 star player who wouldn't have done a thing to contribute? Again, I'd like to see where finances spent for a program is in direct correlation to program success. That's the connection you're making that I don't think is there.
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Wojo obviously tried to get a few grads or JUCOs and it didn't happen. No one is 100% on recruiting. Wojo has done a great job on that front.
It's also entirely possible he decided this was his roster and this is how he wanted to build the team - as a long-term product. Not short term results. I'm sure he's also discussed with his bosses this approach.
I don't particularly have a problem with this approach. I even applaud it. Long term vision with organizational continuity is the recipe for success.
I also don't understand the argument of "the school has a lot of money and Wojo is getting paid" as a knock against Wojo/this team. What do you REALLY expect those finances to amount to? It's not like we're paying the players. How do you see those finances impacting the program directly? Other than maybe attracting a head coach, I don't see direct translation to success. And even re: head coach, we saw in the last two searches, we aren't pulling top notch talent from other schools.
You don't pay the players but recruiting itself costs money and all of the perks (that cost money) we can offer in terms of facilities, travel, gear, etc. etc. etc. are part of what makes us more attractive to recruits than other similarly-situated high-major, non-blue blood, programs. A school with twice the budget should be more effective at recruiting, all other things equal.
I agree that our last two searches haven't pulled in the big name talent - which then begs the question why are we spending the money?
I guess my problem here is that if we are spending top dollar and not getting results than we just look like fools. Programs that spend the amount of money we spend make a tournament EVERY YEAR. I'm fine with "the process" and the "long view" but we can spend half the money if we want to go that route. MU already has one of the thinnest profit margins of the big spenders and if attendance numbers and merch sales start to drop off (as they will with 4 years of mediocre ball) it doesn't take long to get into the red.
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You seem to be implying that Wojo/MU should get whomever they want. And it's a failing if they don't, based on the $$ we spend. That makes no sense. Plus, what if Wojo had an option 1, 2, 3, 4 and then quit before option 5 because option 5 was a 1 star player who wouldn't have done a thing to contribute? Again, I'd like to see where finances spent for a program is in direct correlation to program success. That's the connection you're making that I don't think is there.
Seriously? Google "men's college basketball" spending at look at the teams in our neighborhood. Look at the top 20. None of these teams go 4 years out of the postseason.
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"men's college basketball spending"
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Isn't your whole argument based on the idea we miss next year? That's a big assumption. Even if Henry's gone.
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You don't pay the players but recruiting itself costs money and all of the perks (that cost money) we can offer in terms of facilities, travel, gear, etc. etc. etc. are part of what makes us more attractive to recruits than other similarly-situated high-major, non-blue blood, programs. A school with twice the budget should be more effective at recruiting, all other things equal.
I agree that our last two searches haven't pulled in the big name talent - which then begs the question why are we spending the money?
I guess my problem here is that if we are spending top dollar and not getting results than we just look like fools. Programs that spend the amount of money we spend make a tournament EVERY YEAR. I'm fine with "the process" and the "long view" but we can spend half the money if we want to go that route. MU already has one of the thinnest profit margins of the big spenders and if attendance numbers and merch sales start to drop off (as they will with 4 years of mediocre ball) it doesn't take long to get into the red.
This I actually agree with. If we aren't getting the results back with the investment, or it's clear that if we used a cost-benefit analysis we aren't coming out ahead, then perhaps we should be cutting some of the money. That's more where I was coming from.
Also, I would say that many of those Top 20 spenders are blue bloods who would probably get the results anyway.
I think you also have to look at MU and it's coaches. Even Buzz failed to get some/most of the recruits he wanted, the high end ones anyway. And he was a long standing HC with success both in the tournament and developing players for the NBA. So, you've got a guy at a high-financed program who had NCAA/conference success, and success getting players to the NBA who still couldn't get in the top talent. What does that tell us? Now we're that same program, with a coach without the resume. Certainly seems like it will be a rebuilding situation.
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Yeah, but you do. And if option 1 doesn't work out you go to option 2. And if that doesn't work out you go to option 3. Roster management is a big part of the job and Wojo hasn't done it well.
Actually, you don't....at least not really. Sure, you go to option 2, etc, but at some point you get to an option that is settling, and tying up a scholarship just to settle doesn't work either.
So I agree you move to other options, but those options don't have a limitless number to them.
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"men's college basketball spending"
You aren't paying the bill so why do,you care how much they spend?
Nobody likes losing but my god man take a breath and relax.
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Seriously? Google "men's college basketball" spending at look at the teams in our neighborhood. Look at the top 20. None of these teams go 4 years out of the postseason.
We're only 2 years out of the postseason, where are you getting 4?
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You aren't paying the bill so why do,you care how much they spend?
Nobody likes losing but my god man take a breath and relax.
To be fair to ners, the money does come back in the form of higher ticket prices, donation levels, etc....which is born by the fans.
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To be fair to ners, the money does come back in the form of higher ticket prices, donation levels, etc....which is born by the fans.
Oh good lord. No point in discussing then.
Why do people get banned/leave, then come back and not announce who they were? Seems strange. Pretty disingenuous, at least.
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We're only 2 years out of the postseason, where are you getting 4?
Based on how long people are saying they'll give Wojo. "He's o-k to miss this year - if he misses next year we'll give him until 2018"
Again - hopefully we don't even miss this year. But the topic of this thread is Wojo's leash - many of you think it should be longer than I do - that's fine - but I disagree. Who knows - maybe Wojo needs the seat to be a little warm before he performs...
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Oh good lord. No point in discussing then.
Why do people get banned/leave, then come back and not announce who they were? Seems strange. Pretty disingenuous, at least.
Ha - I'm not Ners - only started really following Scoop last year - but you all do seem to be quite obsessed with him. I didn't think saying "Wojo's seat should be a bit warm if he misses the postseason this year" would be quite so controversial!
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Based on how long people are saying they'll give Wojo. "He's o-k to miss this year - if he misses next year we'll give him until 2018"
Again - hopefully we don't even miss this year. But the topic of this thread is Wojo's leash - many of you think it should be longer than I do - that's fine - but I disagree. Who knows - maybe Wojo needs the seat to be a little warm before he performs...
Earlier this month there was a poll here and where we would go. A lot of people had NCAA....they were homers, which is fine. Who knows, maybe they end up being right. Many of us were NIT at best, very concerned about guard play. That being said, next year I would think NIT for sure (assuming roster is roughly the same), so I don't think you're going to get to 4 years without an appearance.
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Earlier this month there was a poll here and where we would go. A lot of people had NCAA....they were homers, which is fine. Who knows, maybe they end up being right. Many of us were NIT at best, very concerned about guard play. That being said, next year I would think NIT for sure (assuming roster is roughly the same), so I don't think you're going to get to 4 years without an appearance.
And if HE goes? Although I suppose if he goes it means he played well this year which should translate to NIT...
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I agree with everything with the exception that that timeline is too long. The NIT isn't a huge hurdle - teams at are caliber of resource shouldn't be out of the post season for 4 years. Plus - let's give him to March 2018 - we haven't seen any improvement, his guys haven't panned out - we bring in someone new - you all give them another 4 years to get it together - that's how you end up a St. Louis, or a DePaul - and again - if you're happy with that fine (I'm not really) - but we can get to that outcome spending a lot less money on the program.
I don't want to go that long out of the postseason. But right now I am expecting a 1-4 start. If we can rebound from that to finish say 16-17 with more Big East wins than last year (7-11 or better) but out of the NIT, doesn't that at least show progress, especially with a young team?
And if we take that young team next year and get a winning record, 18-14, but miss the NCAAs and NIT, should that result in firing despite constant improvement?
It's all about context, and I'm trying to provide that. Now on the other hand, if we are worse this year than last year (12 total wins or fewer) and don't show improvement next year either, then it may be time to cut the cord. But unless there's zero progress from now until March 2016, I definitely think Wojo should get at least 4 years to prove himself.
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I don't want to go that long out of the postseason. But right now I am expecting a 1-4 start. If we can rebound from that to finish say 16-17 with more Big East wins than last year (7-11 or better) but out of the NIT, doesn't that at least show progress, especially with a young team?
And if we take that young team next year and get a winning record, 18-14, but miss the NCAAs and NIT, should that result in firing despite constant improvement?
It's all about context, and I'm trying to provide that. Now on the other hand, if we are worse this year than last year (12 total wins or fewer) and don't show improvement next year either, then it may be time to cut the cord. But unless there's zero progress from now until March 2016, I definitely think Wojo should get at least 4 years to prove himself.
Listen - that's a logical argument to make - my only problem with letting the Wojo experiment drag on for years (even showing the very modest progression you've suggested) is that each year we are irrelevant the more and more difficult not only recruiting becomes (let's face it - Milwaukee doesn't necessarily sell itself) but also the less prestigious the school looks to head coach candidates. That being said, I was shocked that with our success in the past decade and our resources that we weren't able to attract a better candidate pool for the position. Everyone was excited about "done deal" because Shaka seemed like the kind of coach we should have been able to attract. But maybe untried assistants really are our ceiling.
Mediocrity festers.
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Listen - that's a logical argument to make - my only problem with letting the Wojo experiment drag on for years (even showing the very modest progression you've suggested) is that each year we are irrelevant the more and more difficult not only recruiting becomes (let's face it - Milwaukee doesn't necessarily sell itself) but also the less prestigious the school looks to head coach candidates. That being said, I was shocked that with our success in the past decade and our resources that we weren't able to attract a better candidate pool for the position. Everyone was excited about "done deal" because Shaka seemed like the kind of coach we should have been able to attract. But maybe untried assistants really are our ceiling.
Mediocrity festers.
Had Marquette wanted a proven coach like Howland or Cuonzo, they could have had them. The hiring process determined the best guy was Wojo. And with our resources, facilities, and a new arena coming, attracting a quality coach won't be a problem, even if Wojo fails for four years.
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Listen - that's a logical argument to make - my only problem with letting the Wojo experiment drag on for years (even showing the very modest progression you've suggested) is that each year we are irrelevant the more and more difficult not only recruiting becomes (let's face it - Milwaukee doesn't necessarily sell itself) but also the less prestigious the school looks to head coach candidates. That being said, I was shocked that with our success in the past decade and our resources that we weren't able to attract a better candidate pool for the position. Everyone was excited about "done deal" because Shaka seemed like the kind of coach we should have been able to attract. But maybe untried assistants really are our ceiling.
Mediocrity festers.
Marquette has hired bad coaches before. If Wojo turns out to be a bad coach, they can hire a good replacement. That's what the resources available to Marquette allows them to do.
Those resources do not allow a coach to fill a depleted roster in 18 months. (If you call having a top 10 recruiting class a depleted roster.)
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And if HE goes? Although I suppose if he goes it means he played well this year which should translate to NIT...
If HE goes, he goes. It may even provide more balance. There are times I watch this team and they look for HE to bail them out. That's not good either. He's a nice player, lets not make him out to be Jordan.
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If HE goes, he goes. It may even provide more balance. There are times I watch this team and they look for HE to bail them out. That's not good either. He's a nice player, lets not make him out to be Jordan.
I agree with this analysis.
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Were I as frustrated/disgusted/embarrassed as Ners Jr., I would look for another school to root for.
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Seriously? Google "men's college basketball" spending at look at the teams in our neighborhood. Look at the top 20. None of these teams go 4 years out of the postseason.
Nonsensical measurement.
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This is so ridiculous, I don't know why I answer, but....
Anyone who thinks our talent is as good this year as Michigan State last year has never watched college basketball. Valentine, Trice, and Dawson were all better -far better - than anyone on this MU team. And they had a ton of experience playing together. One of those stiffs just threw up a triple-double against Kansas tonite. Time to fire Self for not being able to design the right defense.
And Louisville just had two guys drafted by the NBA off of their no-talent team.
The experience level between us and MSU/UL - well, again, no comparison.
Yeah but, to be fair, da Louisville playas probably had more experience than ours, hey?
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Keep in mind he followed a guy who's stock was artificially inflated, the board of directors got involved, there were firings for improprieties and lying by one of his top lieutentents, driving the stock down....further dropped when the former CEO's performance in his final year after analysts predicted stellar results ended up being horrific....well below expectations across the board.....then when the CEO skipped town for less money and trading in a Fortune 100 job for a fortune 1000 job to stay ahead of the SEC.
Thus, it will take a few years for the current CEO to make his mark.
Both T-Cubed and Bumstead were portrayed years earlier, in the book, "Den of Thieves," hey?
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Yeah but, to be fair, da Louisville playas probably had more experience than ours, hey?
With school sponsored Hookers--yeah they definitely have more experience.
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Ners is alive and well on the scout board. Deeznuts is clearly ners and is in danger of getting banned after only a couple of weeks.
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Ners is alive and well on the scout board. Deeznuts is clearly ners and is in danger of getting banned after only a couple of weeks.
So I headed over there to see what that's about and saw this reply to Dodds.
"Yet, don't you find it odd that somehow in my 89 posts I've managed to acquire a 3.2 rating to your 3.1 rating accumulated over 74,900+ posts?"
That is top-shelf, grade A Ners right there.
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"Didn't even bother to try for?"
He went after Shonn Miller and Damian Lee and lost them to Michigan and Louisville respectively. He also was also looking at a number of Jucos, who he either ended up not offering or not landing.
Shonn Miller starts for UCONN.
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Shonn Miller starts for UCONN.
Yes thank you. Brew corrected me earlier.
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Despite almost snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the leash is a little longer this morning. :)
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Despite almost snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the leash is a little longer this morning. :)
That wasn't Wojo. See Traci Carter last minute turnovers and Duane Wilson 3 pointer.
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Du's 3 is on Wojo - he neesd to get through to him. So many games are won and lost in the last two minutes - so happy to come out with a W either way - but at least this team was ready to play. Definitely not the Iowa team.
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So with a bit of a body of work now where are we at? Non-con overall above expectations, conference play about at expectations (1 for 3 on big time scalps, but offset by fact we should have beat SH or Gtown - and neither a bad team, but SH a very bad loss) - if we run out the season on this trajectory (but I would say more downside than upside risk at this point) we are NIT and Wojo won't have wowed us but not terribly disappointed us either. I know nothing short of a 12 game losing streak to end the season could disappoint Tower (or would even that?) but everyone else?
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Despite almost snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the leash is a little longer this morning. :)
Would you care to share why you don't like Wojo??
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Oh STFU with bumping this today. We lost to two top-10 teams this week. If this team finishes 8-10 or better in league this year, it's a success. Wojo's doing fine.
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So with a bit of a body of work now where are we at? Non-con overall above expectations, conference play about at expectations (1 for 3 on big time scalps, but offset by fact we should have beat SH or Gtown - and neither a bad team, but SH a very bad loss) - if we run out the season on this trajectory (but I would say more downside than upside risk at this point) we are NIT and Wojo won't have wowed us but not terribly disappointed us either. I know nothing short of a 12 game losing streak to end the season could disappoint Tower (or would even that?) but everyone else?
I predicted 17 wins for this team. So far, this team as exceeded my expectations. I don't believe that a team so heavily reliant on freshmen can be expected to be any kind of consistent. I don't believe that parts of the growth process can be skipped. Young players need to learn how to compete at much higher levels than they are accustomed to. Xavier had a whole bunch of 22-23 year olds facing a whole bunch of 18-19-20 year olds. Size (vertical and horizontal) matters and so does experience. More than anything, I am patient.
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More or less, people on Scoop are getting restless. Haven't missed the tourney 3 straight years since the 4 year stretch in Deane's last 2 years & Creans first 2 years (1997/98 - 2001/02)
This team has talent & will come around. The plan is in place.
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So with a bit of a body of work now where are we at? Non-con overall above expectations, conference play about at expectations (1 for 3 on big time scalps, but offset by fact we should have beat SH or Gtown - and neither a bad team, but SH a very bad loss) - if we run out the season on this trajectory (but I would say more downside than upside risk at this point) we are NIT and Wojo won't have wowed us but not terribly disappointed us either. I know nothing short of a 12 game losing streak to end the season could disappoint Tower (or would even that?) but everyone else?
I'd be careful what I said about Georgetown. They started off the year poorly, but IMO they have the most talented roster of any team in the Big East.
I'd be disappointed by a loss to Stetson, at St Johns or in either of the DePaul games. Other than that, we're playing five teams that are better than us, and have three games left with two teams that (hopefully) are roughly on our level. 18 wins, 7-11 in conference would be a solid season from my point of view.
MU beating out Seton Hall and Creighton for sixth in the Big East and making the NCAA tournament is my absolute ceiling prediction, and would leave me ecstatic.
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So with a bit of a body of work now where are we at? Non-con overall above expectations, conference play about at expectations (1 for 3 on big time scalps, but offset by fact we should have beat SH or Gtown - and neither a bad team, but SH a very bad loss) - if we run out the season on this trajectory (but I would say more downside than upside risk at this point) we are NIT and Wojo won't have wowed us but not terribly disappointed us either. I know nothing short of a 12 game losing streak to end the season could disappoint Tower (or would even that?) but everyone else?
To answer your question, he doesn't have a short leash. They just signed him to an extension.
My goodness, they just lost to two top ten teams in back to back games. What exactly were you expecting?
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To answer your question, he doesn't have a short leash. They just signed him to an extension.
My goodness, they just lost to two top ten teams in back to back games. What exactly were you expecting?
My guess is that the people who are bitching on this thread are the same morons who said in a thread awhile back that any Marquette basketball team who doesn't win the NCAA tournament doesn't deserve an "A" for their performance in a given year.
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So with a bit of a body of work now where are we at? Non-con overall above expectations, conference play about at expectations (1 for 3 on big time scalps, but offset by fact we should have beat SH or Gtown - and neither a bad team, but SH a very bad loss) - if we run out the season on this trajectory (but I would say more downside than upside risk at this point) we are NIT and Wojo won't have wowed us but not terribly disappointed us either. I know nothing short of a 12 game losing streak to end the season could disappoint Tower (or would even that?) but everyone else?
My position on this earlier in this thread was to give Wojo a mulligan for the non conference and set an expectation of him to go 9-9 in conference to stay off hot seat. Since then the school extended his contract so he doesn't have to worry about being on hot seat. However, my expectation is still the same. He needs to show .500 in conference. There are 4 strong teams in the conference, so realistically we are playing to be the top dog of the next 6 or at worst 2nd in order to get to 9-9. We have the talent relative to the rest of the league to achieve this with the right coaching leadership.
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I say dey shoulda fired da bum after losing by 8 to the No. 6 team in da nation!
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time for wojo to start feeling some heat. guy can't coach. losing to depaul means just making the NIT will be a struggle. poor performances in front of the home crowds. little improvement. another disappointing season. as a longtime mu fan i'm very disappointed in this staff and am tired of this team being the whipping boy in the big east. this program is better than that
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time for wojo to start feeling some heat. guy can't coach. losing to depaul means just making the NIT will be a struggle. poor performances in front of the home crowds. little improvement. another disappointing season. as a longtime mu fan i'm very disappointed in this staff and am tired of this team being the whipping boy in the big east. this program is better than that
I wanna tell you to relax but I just want to yell at the top of my lungs after watching that game.
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time for wojo to start feeling some heat. guy can't coach. losing to depaul means just making the NIT will be a struggle. poor performances in front of the home crowds. little improvement. another disappointing season. as a longtime mu fan i'm very disappointed in this staff and am tired of this team being the whipping boy in the big east. this program is better than that
So is the talent. But Wojo got a longer leash from MU by the extension. This game was a good judge of the state of the program.
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Nothing to see here, people. Move along.
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So is the talent. But Wojo got a longer leash from MU by the extension. This game was a good judge of the state of the program.
That extension means nothing.
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Gnaw that leash off Wojo and run for the woods.
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That extension means nothing.
It sure as hell does if he doesn't get the job done. More coin will be paid out!!!!!!
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It sure as hell does if he doesn't get the job done. More coin will be paid out!!!!!!
True, but it won't prevent them from doing anything.
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To answer your question, he doesn't have a short leash. They just signed him to an extension.
My goodness, they just lost to two top ten teams in back to back games. What exactly were you expecting?
To beat DePaul at home.
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In October coach Wojo told me directly this season would be better. For season ticket holders and casual fans in this really better?? just asking..
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Wojo should take away his MU gear until he can start to win some games. And he should take a pay cut - if he wants to get paid like a top-20 coach he needs to coach like a top-20 coach.
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Wojo should take away his MU gear until he can start to win some games. And he should take a pay cut - if he wants to get paid like a top-20 coach he needs to coach like a top-20 coach.
He's getting that much money!?
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He's getting that much money!?
I don't think terms have been made public (certainly on extension but maybe even on original?) but Buzz was making 2.8 mil - which was top ten. I think the rumor is that Wojo is around 2 mil all told - which would have him in the top-20 ballpark. But someone with inside info can correct me if I'm wrong
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I don't think terms have been made public (certainly on extension but maybe even on original?) but Buzz was making 2.8 mil - which was top ten. I think the rumor is that Wojo is around 2 mil all told - which would have him in the top-20 ballpark. But someone with inside info can correct me if I'm wrong
Appreciate the insight. Wojo making serious dough
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More or less, people on Scoop are getting restless. Haven't missed the tourney 3 straight years since the 4 year stretch in Deane's last 2 years & Creans first 2 years (1997/98 - 2001/02)
This team has talent & will come around. The plan is in place.
Whatever the plan is, it needs to come out of the place and show something. Right now, it has shown little. Recruiting talent, a good thing, but not developing the talent to win games against good competition.
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I don't think terms have been made public (certainly on extension but maybe even on original?) but Buzz was making 2.8 mil - which was top ten. I think the rumor is that Wojo is around 2 mil all told - which would have him in the top-20 ballpark. But someone with inside info can correct me if I'm wrong
Next year's tax returns will provide details. Until then we are just guessing.
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In October coach Wojo told me directly this season would be better. For season ticket holders and casual fans in this really better?? just asking..
If you don't think this season is better than last season, you have blocked last season out of your memory. Which I don't blame you for.
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If you don't think this season is better than last season, you have blocked last season out of your memory. Which I don't blame you for.
Last year we were watching several guys who had no chance of ever being big time contributors on a future good MU team use up a lot of minutes. We may not be good, but at least this year we're watching some guys play who can eventually be part of something good at MU. Good games by our seniors last year were nice, but didn't hold promise of anything. I think from this point forward I'll be looking more for signs of maturation and improvement from our young guys than I will for wins.
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MU's admin is going to take the long view of this. He has a long leash.
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I am sticking with my earlier thought on this thread. Mulligan for Non Conference. Needs to go 9-9 in conference. We are not half way finished with the conference.
We have plenty of tools it is just a matter of putting them all together and getting on a run. The coaches and the kids area all committed so lets see what the rest of the year brings us.
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MU's admin is going to take the long view of this. He has a long leash.
Agreed, Wojo is doing fine given the long term nature of the plan. As long as the recruits continue to come in and then stay so that they can be competitive as upperclassmen, Wojo will be on track to make MU a player in the Big East.
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Needs to go 9-9 in conference.
Needs to go 9-9?
Or what?
You personally are going to fire Wojo?
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Needs to go 9-9?
Or what?
You personally are going to fire Wojo?
I let it go, but I was thinking along the same lines....
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Needs to go 9-9?
Or what?
You personally are going to fire Wojo?
This is an Internet message board.
If he doesn't go 9-9 I think he deserves to be on the hot seat. Like I said I was willing to give him a free pass through non conference. I am not in the camp that thinks we are starved of talent.
That is just my opinion and maybe you have another one. I would be delighted to hear it.
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This is an Internet message board.
If he doesn't go 9-9 I think he deserves to be on the hot seat. Like I said I was willing to give him a free pass through non conference. I am not in the camp that thinks we are starved of talent.
That is just my opinion and maybe you have another one. I would be delighted to hear it.
Who's hot seat? Yours? He isn't going to be on any other hot seat in the country, I assure you.
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This is an Internet message board.
If he doesn't go 9-9 I think he deserves to be on the hot seat. Like I said I was willing to give him a free pass through non conference. I am not in the camp that thinks we are starved of talent.
That is just my opinion and maybe you have another one. I would be delighted to hear it.
Not starved at talent at all
We have a roster full of top 100 guys
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This is an Internet message board.
If he doesn't go 9-9 I think he deserves to be on the hot seat. Like I said I was willing to give him a free pass through non conference. I am not in the camp that thinks we are starved of talent.
That is just my opinion and maybe you have another one. I would be delighted to hear it.
I don't think we're starved for talent - we're starved for experience. And the only way to resolve that is more time.
Only hot seat Wojo's got is the heated driver's seat in his car.
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I don't think we're starved for talent - we're starved for experience. And the only way to resolve that is more time.
Only hot seat Wojo's got is the heated driver's seat in his car.
Agree completely. Rarely does inexperience win. There are exceptions, including Crean's team with Wes, DJ, Jerel, etc. But those are typically exceptions and that team had Novak as a senior....pretty damn good Senior to have on a team to steady things.
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Not starved at talent at all
We have a roster full of top 100 guys
Fwiw, you are right. I forget how highly these kids were ranked. Only Sacar & Wally are outside the top 150 per "247" national comp:
PG - Cheatham - #76 Natl comp
SG - Duane - #59 Natl comp
SF - Sandy - #74 Natl comp
SF - JJJ - #32 Natl comp
PF - Fish - #88 Natl comp
C - Henry - #9 Natl comp
Heldt - #136 Natl comp
Traci - #126 Natl comp
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Fwiw, you are right. I forget how highly these kids were ranked. Only Sacar & Wally are outside the top 150 per "247" national comp:
PG - Cheatham - #76 Natl comp
SG - Duane - #59 Natl comp
SF - Sandy - #74 Natl comp
SF - JJJ - #32 Natl comp
PF - Fish - #88 Natl comp
C - Henry - #9 Natl comp
Heldt - #136 Natl comp
Traci - #126 Natl comp
That talent ranking is probably better than 80 to 90% of D1 teams.
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Who's hot seat? Yours? He isn't going to be on any other hot seat in the country, I assure you.
Yes Of course mine. The school already extended his contract so he is clearly not on theirs.
Now get off my lawn.
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That is just my opinion and maybe you have another one. I would be delighted to hear it.
My opinion is that he needs to go 9-9 ... because if he doesn't, he will have a record that is different from that.
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Ok, other than Tower I think most people were at least mildly disappointed by this year's outcome. (Yes there were some bright spots, but on the whole, a mildly disappointing effort). Of course Wojo's seat isn't warm now, but I think it is very reasonable to think that he has to prove something (to fans, future recruits, admin) next year. The question is what? Let's set the marker now.
I think a coach getting paid what we are paying Wojo with the resources he has should be able to 1) go out and get some beast of a 4 as a juco/grad transfer and 2) with that piece plus current and incoming talent. end next season as absolutely no worse than a team squarely on the bubble (I.e. In the tourney or a NIT 1 seed). Thoughts?
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I expect him to schedule more difficult games and win some of them. If we had a more difficult schedule this year and won the same number of games, I think we'd at least be in the NIT.
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Do you guys ever sleep?
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Do you guys ever sleep?
Europe my 4am posting friend.
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Europe my 4am posting friend.
Ha that's funny. I guess I'm the only crazy one still up.
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Ok, other than Tower I think most people were at least mildly disappointed by this year's outcome. (Yes there were some bright spots, but on the whole, a mildly disappointing effort). Of course Wojo's seat isn't warm now, but I think it is very reasonable to think that he has to prove something (to fans, future recruits, admin) next year. The question is what? Let's set the marker now.
I think a coach getting paid what we are paying Wojo with the resources he has should be able to 1) go out and get some beast of a 4 as a juco/grad transfer and 2) with that piece plus current and incoming talent. end next season as absolutely no worse than a team squarely on the bubble (I.e. In the tourney or a NIT 1 seed). Thoughts?
It was what I expected. Disappointed that it has come to this? Sure. But looking at the roster objectively, it was what I expected.
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Ok, other than Tower I think most people were at least mildly disappointed by this year's outcome. (Yes there were some bright spots, but on the whole, a mildly disappointing effort). Of course Wojo's seat isn't warm now, but I think it is very reasonable to think that he has to prove something (to fans, future recruits, admin) next year. The question is what? Let's set the marker now.
I think a coach getting paid what we are paying Wojo with the resources he has should be able to 1) go out and get some beast of a 4 as a juco/grad transfer and 2) with that piece plus current and incoming talent. end next season as absolutely no worse than a team squarely on the bubble (I.e. In the tourney or a NIT 1 seed). Thoughts?
I'm conflicted in my thoughts about the season. I expected to make the NIT and we didn't. But I also only expected 17 or 18 wins abd we exceeded that. We also only had one truly bad loss. We won more that I didn't expect to win than lost that I didn't expect to lose. In the end, I think we made my expectations but a terrible schedule and 15 NIT autobids kept us out of the postseason.
Wojo had already overachieved in recruiting so I really don't expect more there. I expect to finish in the top half of the conference and to make the ncaas. If we don't, then wojos seat gets a little warm for me. If after year four we still aren't in the promised land, I'm ready to move on.
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I'll render judgement after I see the roster composition in May. HE is a shoe yet to drop, could be another, then we have to see what Wojo picks up in recruits.
Hauser's coming in and Rowsey will be eligible, those will be helpful. If Wojo can keep everything but HE together and add a rebounding/defensive PF then NCAA is the expectation.
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My expectations for next season is that lots of Scoopers will moan no matter what the team does.
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I'll render judgement after I see the roster composition in May. HE is a shoe yet to drop, could be another, then we have to see what Wojo picks up in recruits.
Hauser's coming in and Rowsey will be eligible, those will be helpful. If Wojo can keep everything but HE together and add a rebounding/defensive PF then NCAA is the expectation.
But this is part of my point - isn't some of the evaluation of Wojo what kind of roster he can put together? If if he doesn't fill the holes effectively isn't that just as problematic as losing games?
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But this is part of my point - isn't some of the evaluation of Wojo what kind of roster he can put together? If if he doesn't fill the holes effectively isn't that just as problematic as losing games?
Of course it is, but what about his performance so far has you worried about his recruiting?
When you get down to it, the main down theme about this year is that we played a poorly designed schedule and there were a few games where we were dominated and there were no games against high-major teams where just rolled to an easy win. That probably means, if anything, we were more likely worse than our record, not better.
Wojo inherited a mess. He is making strides to pull us out of it. He appears to be a solid recruiter and camera-friendly and capable and organized. We'll get better. It's just that I don't know when and the wait is getting frustrating. I'd love to see us progress to the NCAAs next year, but if HE doesn't return we will need more than the normal freshman to sophomore improvement cycle. We need some bangers inside. You can't successfully play 4 small, one big when the one big is not an athletic shot blocker and the 4 smalls are not 3 point savants.
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But this is part of my point - isn't some of the evaluation of Wojo what kind of roster he can put together? If if he doesn't fill the holes effectively isn't that just as problematic as losing games?
I have more patience with roster issues after this year as it's only his second recruiting class after the dumpster fire Buzz left behind. And his first two have been very good so far.
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But this is part of my point - isn't some of the evaluation of Wojo what kind of roster he can put together? If if he doesn't fill the holes effectively isn't that just as problematic as losing games?
At the end of the day this year's roster was fine - an A+ would have added a JUCO or grad transfer - but it was a pretty darn good recruiting class.
For next year its way to early to comment. Too much will likely change. I think we are all happy that our guards will all be taking a step forward on the experience spectrum -- now its up to the coaching staff to take the rest of the moving pieces and improve.
For me I worry less about roster management and more about some of the tactical coaching items around in-game management and our regression on defense toward the end of the year. We will see what Wojo does with this. He is not incompetent - he knows people are frustrated, he knows attendance is down and he clearly wants to succeed. I dont think these things are lost on him or the current MU admin (the prior is another story).
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Europe my 4am posting friend.
Yes'sir. Spain time. I only sleep during siesta.
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I said this before and I'll say it again. It takes time to rebuild.
Look, Coach Wojo didn't inherit what Hank Raymonds did. Coach Raymonds inherited a national champion, mature team with a solid group of underclassmen who were prepared to step up. He had a guard-in-waiting in Sam Worthen for after Butch left.
Too much of this Board thinks Coach Wojo should be boiled in oil and fed to the wolves because he can't turn us around in one year and do what Coach Raymonds did in 1978 or 1979.
I'm actually more concerned about avoiding what happened through much of the 1980s than I am about where we are at this moment. I hope Henry stays another year, but if doesn't, OK, how do we fix it? Years ago, Jim Chones left and we "fixed it" with Maurice Lucas. Life moved on! Let's hope we can do that this year.
I know The Tanned One is hated around here, but when he left for Indiana -- a basketball blue blood school if there ever was one -- he got a 10 year contract from the Hoosiers. Coach Tanned One knew his program was in shambles and it was not a one-year rebuild. It took time but he's a lot closer now to making Indiana what it was than he was in Years 1 or 2 of his reign.
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But this is part of my point - isn't some of the evaluation of Wojo what kind of roster he can put together? If if he doesn't fill the holes effectively isn't that just as problematic as losing games?
Glad your not on the BOT, or the executive level of Athletics, or a big donor.