MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 94Warrior on December 23, 2018, 10:24:23 PM
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While there are not many 5'11" shooting guards in the NBA, Markus is an elite scorer. With the ability to shoot like he can I have a hard time believing he doesn't have a place in the NBA. I am absolutely hopeful he has a long, successful NBA career, but that it does not begin until after a 2020 Final Four appearance.
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He is a very poor ball handler. Watch his 5 first half turnovers. He struggles to pass and handle the ball. Great shooter. At 5’11” he needs to greatly improve his ball handling and court vision. Not on draft boards for a reason.
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He'll be given a chance - in the G League at least. Keep putting up these performances (I'm not trying to encourage him), and he may get drafted. He does need to improve his ball control and assist numbers to really make NBA teams believe.
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Sam and Markus both in this 2020 mock......https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/9nk97t/espn_2020_nba_mock_draft_top_60_prospects_and/
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Only 19, has a LOT to work on. I have published info from scouts in the past on Cracked Sidewalks around the draft. Will do so again this year when it is time, but early discussions they say would be a bad move. Undersized, average handle, streaky shooter, small body, not a great defender but getting better. Many many positives, too....incredible college player....tough to see it translate to NBA.
I was not high on Hank in NBA, believe Wades and I had a bet on that...but Hank coming out was a no brained because that draft class was so damn bad and the one after so good. Business decision. In Howard’s case, it isn’t a business decision at this point because the prospects aren’t there. Now, with this new G league $100K stuff, maybe he goes down that path, but he has the chance to play in Europe and maybe somehow NBA one day, he needs to get better at some table stakes stuff.
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Said he was going 4 years.....
Sam wants to play with his brother.....
We shall see.....
Things may change if something significant were to occur.....
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Every NBA team needs shooters, now more than ever. I can see a team that already has a really good PG and some size in the backcourt taking Markus as a floor-spacer who can get passes from a drive-and-kick PG and hit open 3s. It would be a role more similar to his role as a freshman, when he was more of a supporting player and benefited from others having more attention from defenses.
He has not yet shown he has the kind of court vision an NBA point guard needs to help his teammates excel. And he's far too loose with the basketball.
If he has the kind of season he's capable of, he'd be wise to take advantage of the rules, seek the opinion of NBA types and then act upon it. If he is fairly sure he'd be a first-round draft pick, go; if not, stay. Hard for me to believe he'd be a first-rounder, but I never though Lazar would be, either.
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I expect he'll be back simply because I don't think his size fits what the league is looking for. But I also think it would be a mistake for him not to test the waters. Could be a busy summer for him. There's the draft, potentially the Pan-Am Games, then a Marquette international trip.
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Yes
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I also think Markus (And Sam) know that next year could be special. I expect everyone to be back for a big year.
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Unlike the last non-lottery-pick player who left MU early for the draft, Markus is a very bright kid who values education, is extremely loyal, and is aware of his current strengths and weaknesses.
There is almost no downside to him staying for his senior year. He continues to improve, plays another year on a great team that will lose no starters, gets another year of favorable press, and likely picks up some (more) awards.
Chick jr. is on pace to complete her master's degree at Marquette in Spring of 2020, and I when I go the commencement ceremony, I fully expect to see Markus there in his cap and gown.
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Unlike the last non-lottery-pick player who left MU early for the draft, Markus is a very bright kid who values education, is extremely loyal, and is aware of his current strengths and weaknesses.
You could say nice things about Markus without disparaging Henry you know. You have no idea how bright and loyal Henry is. You also have no idea if he values education or not.
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You could say nice things about Markus without disparaging Henry you know. You have no idea how bright and loyal Henry is. You also have no idea if he values education or not.
You are right.
I should have said non-projected-lottery pick.
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You could say nice things about Markus without disparaging Henry you know. You have no idea how bright and loyal Henry is. You also have no idea if he values education or not.
In Henry's interviews he didn't exactly come off as the brightest. Hey not everyone's great at PR though.
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Let's put it this way. The Ellenson family and Marquette each got what they wanted out of that brief relationship. It was nice to see Henry at the game a couple weeks back. Nice round of applause.
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Let's put it this way. The Ellenson family and Marquette each got what they wanted for Henry out of that brief relationship. It was nice to see Henry at the game a couple weeks back. Nice round of applause.
FIFY :-*
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#M2N
(I put 60 to 80% he's back).
I'm pleased this is a topic on Scoop in December 2018. Two and a half years ago not many of us saw the greatness that would be revealed.
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Unlike the last non-lottery-pick player who left MU early for the draft, Markus is a very bright kid who values education, is extremely loyal, and is aware of his current strengths and weaknesses.
There is almost no downside to him staying for his senior year. He continues to improve, plays another year on a great team that will lose no starters, gets another year of favorable press, and likely picks up some (more) awards.
Chick jr. is on pace to complete her master's degree at Marquette in Spring of 2020, and I when I go the commencement ceremony, I fully expect to see Markus there in his cap and gown.
Which means I wouldn't be surprised if he's on track to graduate in 3 years, like he did in HS. If he averages 25 ppg and we make an E8/FF with him having big performances, it would be difficult to see him stay when he already accomplished the degree
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You could say nice things about Markus without disparaging Henry you know. You have no idea how bright and loyal Henry is. You also have no idea if he values education or not.
I interpreted this as Vander
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Which means I wouldn't be surprised if he's on track to graduate in 3 years, like he did in HS. If he averages 25 ppg and we make an E8/FF with him having big performances, it would be difficult to see him stay when he already accomplished the degree
Oh, no! Markus is going to be a grad transfer!
As smart as he is, I doubt that he would have the capacity time-wise to graduate in 3 years. And what would be the incentive? There are only 24 hours in a day. If he has extra room in his schedule, I think he would rather spend that time working on his basketball skills.
I know he graduated from high school in 3 years, but if he had gone a 4th year, he could have loaded up on the AP courses and would have been even more likely to be able to graduate early.
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Markus is this year's Trae Young.
But Trae is 6'2" and a much better ball handler.
Markus is a second rounder, and most likely. undrafted right now. We'll see what the next 20 games bring.
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https://www.nbadraftjunkies.com/markus-howard
https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Markus-Howard/Summary/81690
https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/markus-howard-scouting-report
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Well yeah, wear wood he be goin', hey?
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Unlike the last non-lottery-pick player who left MU early for the draft, Markus is a very bright kid who values education, is extremely loyal, and is aware of his current strengths and weaknesses.
There is almost no downside to him staying for his senior year. He continues to improve, plays another year on a great team that will lose no starters, gets another year of favorable press, and likely picks up some (more) awards.
Chick jr. is on pace to complete her master's degree at Marquette in Spring of 2020, and I when I go the commencement ceremony, I fully expect to see Markus there in his cap and gown.
I think it is better than 50/50 Markus will be back next year. But there is always a downside to staying: A catastrophic injury before you get that first big check.
Also, no need to talk down on others who made what they felt was the best decision for their future, whether that decision was right or wrong. Loyalty has nothing to do with it. Vander is years in the rear view mirror. Time to let go.
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Markus is this year's Trae Young.
But Trae is 6'2" and a much better ball handler.
Markus is by far a better shooter (and younger than Young).
Trae coughed up the ball a ton. 5-6 turnovers in a game was norm for him. Despite an ultra-high usage, his turnover rate was 20% and he shot just 36% 3FG%.
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Yes. He and his family value his degree greatly. Suppose it’s possible with summer school he could graduate this summer, but I highly doubt Markus is going anywhere, even as a First Team All American.
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I think it is better than 50/50 Markus will be back next year. But there is always a downside to staying: A catastrophic injury before you get that first big check.
Also, no need to talk down on others who made what they felt was the best decision for their future, whether that decision was right or wrong. Loyalty has nothing to do with it. Vander is years in the rear view mirror. Time to let go.
Don't they have insurance for injuries? If that was a concern, I would think the Howard family would buy it.
And I was not talking down on anyone. My point was that fight or wrong, his loyalty to Wojo and the team would be an item of consideration in any decision Markus would make. I don't think that was the case with Vander.
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I also think Markus (And Sam) know that next year could be special. I expect everyone to be back for a big year.
At the end of this season, Markus might think this was plenty special. What if he's an All-American and MU wins both the BEast and gets to the S16 or further? That's pretty special.
I don't know how many kids who are legitimate NBAers these days think along the lines of "if I come back for another college season, we can be special."
For Sam, it makes more sense because he'd get to play another year with his brother (which I trust he enjoys doing, though long-time observers certainly would know better than I do).
But for the vast majority of kids who have aspirations of playing in the NBA, if enough people (especially people they trust) tell them they should go, that beats chances of a potentially "special" future college season, "loyalty," getting the degree, etc.
Were Markus to leave, it wouldn't mean he suddenly devalues education. He can always get his degree, especially if he is close. It obviously wouldn't mean he's disloyal. (Besides, one probably can find some Arizona State fans who say he has been disloyal.)
I'm guessing that with Markus the decision will be made for similar reasons that most other kids do: If he gets a strong feeling that he will be drafted, he will go; if most people he trust think he needs another year of college, he will stay.
Now, if he likes MU, likes college, likes his teammates, likes his coaches, etc, that does take away one reason to leave despite mediocre draft prospects (Vander obviously wanted to go even though his prospects weren't very good).
In the end, most athletes do what they think will be best for themselves. Which is as it should be.
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And I was not talking down on anyone. My point was that fight or wrong, his loyalty to Wojo and the team would be an item of consideration in any decision Markus would make. I don't think that was the case with Vander.
Of course you were talking down on someone. If I said "Unlike warriorchick, jsglow is a very bright poster." You don't think I would be talking down on you?
Regardless, I predict Markus to go through the entire process and leave it until the last moment to pull himself out of the draft.
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I can't recall .. didn't they tweak the "hiring an agent" thing a few years ago?
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At the end of this season, Markus might think this was plenty special. What if he's an All-American and MU wins both the BEast and gets to the S16 or further? That's pretty special.
I don't know how many kids who are legitimate NBAers these days think along the lines of "if I come back for another college season, we can be special."
For Sam, it makes more sense because he'd get to play another year with his brother (which I trust he enjoys doing, though long-time observers certainly would know better than I do).
But for the vast majority of kids who have aspirations of playing in the NBA, if enough people (especially people they trust) tell them they should go, that beats chances of a potentially "special" future college season, "loyalty," getting the degree, etc.
Were Markus to leave, it wouldn't mean he suddenly devalues education. He can always get his degree, especially if he is close. It obviously wouldn't mean he's disloyal. (Besides, one probably can find some Arizona State fans who say he has been disloyal.)
I'm guessing that with Markus the decision will be made for similar reasons that most other kids do: If he gets a strong feeling that he will be drafted, he will go; if most people he trust think he needs another year of college, he will stay.
Now, if he likes MU, likes college, likes his teammates, likes his coaches, etc, that does take away one reason to leave despite mediocre draft prospects (Vander obviously wanted to go even though his prospects weren't very good).
In the end, most athletes do what they think will be best for themselves. Which is as it should be.
Miles Bridges did...and he was a lottery pick.
Markus isn’t even first round(or probably second round)
There’s definitely some weight to be put on Education/having a special year.
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I can't recall .. didn't they tweak the "hiring an agent" thing a few years ago?
Yes. If memory serves, we're back to 'don't hire an agent and you can withdraw from the draft'.
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Pure 3 Shooting a premium in NBA. So he has a place. But that’s all he does. Nice drives but needs a floater and handle like Isaiah Thomas which he is far far far from.
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For those with access to The Athletic......they have Markus at 46 on their big board for 2019
https://twitter.com/sam_vecenie/status/1077238227050815488?s=21
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Unlike the last non-lottery-pick player who left MU early for the draft, Markus is a very bright kid who values education, is extremely loyal, and is aware of his current strengths and weaknesses.
There is almost no downside to him staying for his senior year. He continues to improve, plays another year on a great team that will lose no starters, gets another year of favorable press, and likely picks up some (more) awards.
Chick jr. is on pace to complete her master's degree at Marquette in Spring of 2020, and I when I go the commencement ceremony, I fully expect to see Markus there in his cap and gown.
This.
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I still think he comes back but the chances of him going pro were less before the Buffalo game then they are today. A few more performances like that and he very well may go.
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Unfourtonately, MH didant wynn da hight sperm lottery. 6 more inches and da cat wood make millions. Of course, 6 more inches on da rest of us and we bee makin' millions two. Just knot playin' hoops, hey?
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If Markus leads MU to the Final 4 with performances like he has recently.. I could see him leaving, otherwise no
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I think it is straight forward . If Markus is consistently on the mock drafts as a first rounder he will go. Right now he is not even on many mock draft boards at all.
I followed the mock draft board below closely during Henry’s season and it ended up pretty accurately predicting where he went. Markus is not listed in the top 100.
https://www.nbadraft.net/ranking/bigboard
Will keep an eye on this for changes.
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I'd say there is about a 1% chance Markus leaves Sam and Joey before he's supposed to. That being said, if they win a National Championship this year...that may change things, otherwise, that's his goal I believe.
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I think he will be gone. I am not sure that is the best decision. However, he skipped his senior year in high school, so that may indicate how confident he is in moving to the next level.
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I think he will be gone. I am not sure that is the best decision. However, he skipped his senior year in high school, so that may indicate how confident he is in moving to the next level.
There is absolutely no connection between the two.
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You could say nice things about Markus without disparaging Henry you know. You have no idea how bright and loyal Henry is. You also have no idea if he values education or not.
Well said. Unecessary cheap shot by warriorchick
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Well said. Unecessary cheap shot by warriorchick
I wasn't even talking about Henry. Everyone thought he was a lottery pick before the actual draft happened.
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I wasn't even talking about Henry. Everyone thought he was a lottery pick before the actual draft happened.
So it was a cheapshot on vander? On whom doesnt really matter, unecessary cheapshot period.
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So it was a cheapshot on vander? On whom doesnt really matter, unecessary cheapshot period.
What exactly did you consider a cheap shot?
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Of course you were talking down on someone. If I said "Unlike warriorchick, jsglow is a very bright poster." You don't think I would be talking down on you?
Regardless, I predict Markus to go through the entire process and leave it until the last moment to pull himself out of the draft.
I find Chick’s posts to be very positive and never demeaning. I believe she added “very bright” just as a compliment to Markus. Syntax can warp semantics, and maybe the feng-shui of her wording was a bit unfortunate. The proximity of “unlike” unfortunately led many to conclude she was being condescending. The basics of her argument was that Markus truly values his MU education, and that many college ballers today do not, especially NBA-bound kids. FACT.
Sometimes to make a point, one has to compare and contrast situations, and even people. Feelings get hurt along the way. I doubt Vander or Henry would care one iota if someone pointed out that it appeared that they valued their education a bit less than Markus. Now, if you called them less intelligent, they should be ticked. Chick neither intended nor did this in fact.
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The question on the thread... is Markus going to return...,
It has nothing to do with Henry and Vander....
Is a 5’11 shooting guard going to go to the nba? Is he good enough to be a first rounder?
He is obviously talented and going to make money in the European league, g league or nba...
He is also very bright and should earn a degree...
He is also improving each year and gaining attention....
My guess is he stays the full 4 years because he is on an improving team and gaining stature each year. He will continue to improve his value and earn a degree.
It is absolutely not about posters or previous Marquette early entrants in the draft.
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He will stay 4 years to improve ball handling, point guard skills and to get a degree. Who would advise him not too?
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The life time economic value of Markus leading the team to MU's second national championship is also meaningful. That value will endure whether or not Markus pro career is successful.
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I think it is straight forward . If Markus is consistently on the mock drafts as a first rounder he will go. Right now he is not even on many mock draft boards at all.
I followed the mock draft board below closely during Henry’s season and it ended up pretty accurately predicting where he went. Markus is not listed in the top 100.
https://www.nbadraft.net/ranking/bigboard
Will keep an eye on this for changes.
I agree with this. If he is on the board he probably goes and I would wish him all the best.
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Oh, no! Markus is going to be a grad transfer!
As smart as he is, I doubt that he would have the capacity time-wise to graduate in 3 years
Jalen Brunson just did it. Classes in summer help. I expect Marcus to stay, have enough credits to graduate in a December if he chooses to, and then take graduate level courses at MU.
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Trent Lockett also did it at ASU
Difference is Markus has not been loading up.on summer classes. Before his first season he played for Team USA in the summer and last year he went home I believe.
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Trent Lockett also did it at ASU
Difference is Markus has not been loading up.on summer classes. Before his first season he played for Team USA in the summer and last year he went home I believe.
I believe he has only been on campus for Summer Session 2 for each of his 3 summers.
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I do not believe that last year at this time Donte DiVincenzo had any thoughts about leaving early. I think Markus is in a similar predicament. If he has a tournament run like Donte, he's gone.
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I do not believe that last year at this time Donte DiVincenzo had any thoughts about leaving early. I think Markus is in a similar predicament. If he has a tournament run like Donte, he's gone.
I sincerely hope he has that kind of tournament run.
I would gladly trade a fourth year of Markus for a second NCAA title!
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I do not believe that last year at this time Donte DiVincenzo had any thoughts about leaving early. I think Markus is in a similar predicament. If he has a tournament run like Donte, he's gone.
DD had NBA build though, if Howard was taller or had a handle and speed of Nate Robinson, Mugsy or Isaiah Thomas he'd be gone by now. I think it would take increases his offensive efficiency to that of his freshman year again to get him to the first round which is the only reason to leave early anyways.
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DD had NBA build though, if Howard was taller or had a handle and speed of Nate Robinson, Mugsy or Isaiah Thomas he'd be gone by now. I think it would take increases his offensive efficiency to that of his freshman year again to get him to the first round which is the only reason to leave early anyways.
Those 5 inches mean a lot.
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Those 5 inches mean a lot.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/IJLVLpZQuS4z6/giphy.gif)
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Current mock drafts....2019 nothing.
ESPN. MH not in top 100, but Sam Hauser is 98th for 2019. Hauser projected 50th in 2020, Howard 60th in 2020.
NBA Draft.net has MH has 54th player selected in 2020 draft
His profile by one service with links within to others.
https://www.nbascoutinglive.com/markus-howard-scouting-report
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I'd say there is about a 1% chance Markus leaves Sam and Joey before he's supposed to. That being said, if they win a National Championship this year...that may change things, otherwise, that's his goal I believe.
Welcome back
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/IJLVLpZQuS4z6/giphy.gif)
Need to have these private conversations at home 8-)
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Say what you will about how he fits in the NBA etc, but if Ethan Happ stayed at UW, Markus will stay at MU. Happ, perhaps much like Markus, probably realizes the NBA is a long shot with his skill set, so might as well stay in school.
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I do not believe that last year at this time Donte DiVincenzo had any thoughts about leaving early. I think Markus is in a similar predicament. If he has a tournament run like Donte, he's gone.
So barring a ncaa title run where he lights the nets and before that grows to 6’4” with NBA athleticism we are good?
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Um, no. Nothing about growth spurts. But if we have a deep tourney run - like Villanova last year - and Markus has a good tourney along the way - like Donte did - he will make a move up the draft boards. The only way we would get that far is if he shows NBA athleticism. I'm not sure Donte showed NBA athleticism - certainly not prior to the tourney - to warrant such a high draft pick.
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It is going to come down to draft projections, as many others here have mentioned. It will have nothing to do with loyalty, Wojo, Markus' intelligence, a degree, Marquette University, the potential for a "special season" next year, or any other of the ridiculous things mentioned by others. It is a business decision.
if Markus is projected to go in the first round after this season, he will almost certainly go. If he is projected to go in the 2nd round, I'd say its 50/50. If he isn't projected to be drafted he will return.
This is why I said earlier in this thread I think it is better than 50/50 he stays. Most NBA scouts do not see him being drafted in 2019.
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It is going to come down to draft projections, as many others here have mentioned. It will have nothing to do with loyalty, Wojo, Markus' intelligence, a degree, Marquette University, the potential for a "special season" next year, or any other of the ridiculous things mentioned by others. It is a business decision.
if Markus is projected to go in the first round after this season, he will almost certainly go. If he is projected to go in the 2nd round, I'd say its 50/50. If he isn't projected to be drafted he will return.
This is why I said earlier in this thread I think it is better than 50/50 he stays. Most NBA scouts do not see him being drafted in 2019.
As badly as I executed it, that was the point I was trying to make when I called Markus "very bright".
Vander was on few, if any draft boards as a pick. Notwithstanding the other factors I mentioned, Markus is too smart to give up his college eligibility if his chances of getting drafted are slim.
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As badly as I executed it, that was the point I was trying to make when I called Markus "very bright".
Vander was on few, if any draft boards as a pick. Notwithstanding the other factors I mentioned, Markus is too smart to give up his college eligibility if his chances of getting drafted are slim.
Fair enough. I can see your original meaning, although I agree on the execution. Not to re-litigate the past, but I do agree that Vander's decision was in spite of the reality of most draft boards at the time. I guess I'm still just touchy about the amount of heat a 21 year old kid took on this board. It didn't reflect very well on Scoop.
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As badly as I executed it, that was the point I was trying to make when I called Markus "very bright".
Vander was on few, if any draft boards as a pick. Notwithstanding the other factors I mentioned, Markus is too smart to give up his college eligibility if his chances of getting drafted are slim.
Agreed, but your assumption here is that Markus' chances of getting drafted will be slim at year end.
Compare him to Isaiah Thomas from Washington. He was 5'8" and left early after a junior year of a 113 ORtg, 51.7 % eFG, 35% 3FG, 72% FT, 32.7% ARate, 18.9% TORate. He was drafted last pick and put up some all star years before getting injured.
Markus is 5'11" and currently at 115.7 ORtg, 52.9% eFG, 40% 3FG, 91% FT, 28.9% ARate, 16.6% TORate. So comparable/better numbers, with one major difference: Markus is 2 full years younger than Isaiah Thomas was as a junior, and the NBA loves youth.
If he continues to average 25ppg with those efficiency numbers and we remain ranked high, win the BEast, and make a tourney run, I guarantee you will see him pop up on draft boards that he is not currently on. Ultimately he has an advantage over Vander with the new ability to declare and get better feedback with a longer time frame to return if you don't like what you hear. And as a very bright person, I have no doubt he will gather as much information as possible then ultimately make the best decision for his career.
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As badly as I executed it, that was the point I was trying to make when I called Markus "very bright".
Vander was on few, if any draft boards as a pick. Notwithstanding the other factors I mentioned, Markus is too smart to give up his college eligibility if his chances of getting drafted are slim.
But hè no longer has to give up his eligibility if not drafted.......
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/08/college-basketball-ncaa-rules-agents-explanation-nba-draft-undrafted-players-fbi
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Agreed, but your assumption here is that Markus' chances of getting drafted will be slim at year end.
Compare him to Isaiah Thomas from Washington. He was 5'8" and left early after a junior year of a 113 ORtg, 51.7 % eFG, 35% 3FG, 72% FT, 32.7% ARate, 18.9% TORate. He was drafted last pick and put up some all star years before getting injured.
Markus is 5'11" and currently at 115.7 ORtg, 52.9% eFG, 40% 3FG, 91% FT, 28.9% ARate, 16.6% TORate. So comparable/better numbers, with one major difference: Markus is 2 full years younger than Isaiah Thomas was as a junior, and the NBA loves youth.
If he continues to average 25ppg with those efficiency numbers and we remain ranked high, win the BEast, and make a tourney run, I guarantee you will see him pop up on draft boards that he is not currently on. Ultimately he has an advantage over Vander with the new ability to declare and get better feedback with a longer time frame to return if you don't like what you hear. And as a very bright person, I have no doubt he will gather as much information as possible then ultimately make the best decision for his career.
What are the NBA guys saying, does he have a chance to be drafted after this season?
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But hè no longer has to give up his eligibility if not drafted.......
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/08/college-basketball-ncaa-rules-agents-explanation-nba-draft-undrafted-players-fbi
Great outcome for him. Is this part of the Rice Commission?
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What are the NBA guys saying, does he have a chance to be drafted after this season?
Interesting question! Why don't you log off as WarriorDad and respond to your own post as Cheeks with the NBA guys' opinions you already promised us?
Also, it does not matter what they think now. It matters what they think at the end of the season. Markus has plenty of chances to keep putting up wow-factor performances (he's already done it to two teams ranked in the mid teens).
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It is going to come down to draft projections, as many others here have mentioned. It will have nothing to do with loyalty, Wojo, Markus' intelligence, a degree, Marquette University, the potential for a "special season" next year, or any other of the ridiculous things mentioned by others. It is a business decision.
if Markus is projected to go in the first round after this season, he will almost certainly go. If he is projected to go in the 2nd round, I'd say its 50/50. If he isn't projected to be drafted he will return.
This is why I said earlier in this thread I think it is better than 50/50 he stays. Most NBA scouts do not see him being drafted in 2019.
Agree with this.
Agreed, but your assumption here is that Markus' chances of getting drafted will be slim at year end.
Compare him to Isaiah Thomas from Washington. He was 5'8" and left early after a junior year of a 113 ORtg, 51.7 % eFG, 35% 3FG, 72% FT, 32.7% ARate, 18.9% TORate. He was drafted last pick and put up some all star years before getting injured.
Markus is 5'11" and currently at 115.7 ORtg, 52.9% eFG, 40% 3FG, 91% FT, 28.9% ARate, 16.6% TORate. So comparable/better numbers, with one major difference: Markus is 2 full years younger than Isaiah Thomas was as a junior, and the NBA loves youth.
If he continues to average 25ppg with those efficiency numbers and we remain ranked high, win the BEast, and make a tourney run, I guarantee you will see him pop up on draft boards that he is not currently on. Ultimately he has an advantage over Vander with the new ability to declare and get better feedback with a longer time frame to return if you don't like what you hear. And as a very bright person, I have no doubt he will gather as much information as possible then ultimately make the best decision for his career.
And this.
What NBA scouts might or might not be saying now matters little. What will they be saying 3 months from now?
Markus will -- and absolutely should -- make the decision that is best for Markus.
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Um, no. Nothing about growth spurts. But if we have a deep tourney run - like Villanova last year - and Markus has a good tourney along the way - like Donte did - he will make a move up the draft boards. The only way we would get that far is if he shows NBA athleticism. I'm not sure Donte showed NBA athleticism - certainly not prior to the tourney - to warrant such a high draft pick.
Well his nickname was "the Michael Jordan of Delaware."
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Where are people getting this "too smart" and "too loyal" to leave stuff from?
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Where are people getting this "too smart" and "too loyal" to leave stuff from?
Agreed, very curious
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Agree with this.
And this.
What NBA scouts might or might not be saying now matters little. What will they be saying 3 months from now?
Markus will -- and absolutely should -- make the decision that is best for Markus.
We are in agreement as per usual!
Timely quote on Kyler Murray from an article out today:
Said offensive coordinator Cale Gundy: "I was visiting with one scout back in fall camp, and he was like, 'He's 5-9, he can't play in our level.' And I saw the same guy at the Big 12 championship game before the game, and he came up to me and he goes, 'He'll be a first-round draft pick if he wants to come out.'"
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25625337/kyler-murray-oklahoma-sooners-nixed-possibility-playing-nfl
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Markus is too smart to give up his college eligibility if his chances of getting drafted are slim.
This implies Vander was not smart to declare. With ten day contracts, didn't he end up making over $60,000 his first year as a pro? It might not be the choice we would've made or wanted him to make, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong choice for him.
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This implies Vander was not smart to declare. With ten day contracts, didn't he end up making over $60,000 his first year as a pro? It might not be the choice we would've made or wanted him to make, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong choice for him.
I think the argument is Vander could have potentially played himself into the draft the following year by displaying PG abilities and better outside shooting.
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I think the argument is Vander could have potentially played himself into the draft the following year by displaying PG abilities and better outside shooting.
Something like that.
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I think the argument is Vander could have potentially played himself into the draft the following year by displaying PG abilities and better outside shooting.
I just don't see how that would've helped more than NBA & NBADL coaching geared at the same intended outcome.
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I'm OK with whatever Markus and his family and friends decide.
I hope he's at MU forever.
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I hope he's at MU forever.
You think he's gonna go Jesuit!?!
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I just don't see how that would've helped more than NBA & NBADL coaching geared at the same intended outcome.
You make a good point. At the end of the day, it is very easy for us to criticize the choices these young men make. But the reality is that none of us are in their financial situation, and none of us are privy to many of the data points that go into these decisions. In addition, to make it as far as being a high level D1 athlete, you have to have unbelievable confidence in yourself that you can beat the odds, no matter the chatter.
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Back in 2001, Michigan State's Jason Richardson changed his mind and decided to leave after his sophomore year. All the talk back then was how he was nowhere near ready for the NBA, he was shortchanging his own pro potential, etc, etc, etc.
Well, he only got drafted 5th overall and went on to make $105 million during a 13-year NBA career.
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Back in 2001, Michigan State's Jason Richardson changed his mind and decided to leave after his sophomore year. All the talk back then was how he was nowhere near ready for the NBA, he was shortchanging his own pro potential, etc, etc, etc.
Well, he only got drafted 5th overall and went on to make $105 million during a 13-year NBA career.
5th overall is the key
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5th overall is the key
I don't know that it is. Yes, in Richardson's case it all worked out, but would he have been better off by waiting? His draft status wouldn't have improved much the next year (Yao Ming was always going #1 and I suspect Jay Williams still gets picked #2). He got to his second contract faster and got to the point of improving his game to a NBA level faster and there's no guarantee he plays another year longer than 2015, so that's an extra year of earnings in his bank account. He also was able to have an impact as a rookie, putting up 14/4 in 33 mpg.
I think of Blue the same way I did Buycks when he left. Both had enough athleticism and the physical tools to get some NBA run, but they were also both undersized for their position and needed to work on their game (e.g. becoming point guards) to have any chance of sticking in the NBA. Buycks didn't get the NBA looks he did because Buzz turned him into a PG, it was because of his work in France. I don't see how another year at the college level would've helped Blue. Buzz didn't turn a single guy into a NBA point guard.
Maybe Blue would've been better off going the Euro route, maybe another year would've turned him into a 2nd round pick, but what feels most likely in retrospect, especially looking at his career, is that he just wasn't ever going to be a regular NBA player. It's unfortunate, but the college ranks are full of really good players, legitimate stars, that will never be so much as a regular 15th man on a NBA roster. Blue was a great college player, but in retrospect, I don't think he was ever going to have a regular role in the NBA. I thought so at the time and was wrong. He was too small to be a SG, didn't have the three-point shot to overcome his size issues, and didn't have the handle or vision to be a PG.
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I might even argue that Blue was a "great college player". He had one good season.......efficiency wise it wasn't a great season......104 ortg. First 2 seasons were 89 and 95.......yuck.
Certainly he was on the right trajectory.
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I think the argument is Vander could have potentially played himself into the draft the following year by displaying PG abilities and better outside shooting.
He also could have blown his knee and lost his athleticism.
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He also could have blown his knee and lost his athleticism.
There's no guarantees. DJO stayed four years, was probably a better athlete with a better three point shot, was drafted, and despite starting his career earlier has played fewer NBA games than Blue.
Even if Vander sticks and everything goes perfectly, he may well have never caught on.
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There's no guarantees. DJO stayed four years, was probably a better athlete with a better three point shot, was drafted, and despite starting his career earlier has played fewer NBA games than Blue.
Even if Vander sticks and everything goes perfectly, he may well have never caught on.
I doubt vander ever sticks on an nba team in any circumstance but I think there's a chance if he stays and leads that team to great season again some team could've taken a flyer on him and he gets guaranteed money. Whereas there was no first round chance when he left.
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I don't know that it is. Yes, in Richardson's case it all worked out, but would he have been better off by waiting? His draft status wouldn't have improved much the next year (Yao Ming was always going #1 and I suspect Jay Williams still gets picked #2). He got to his second contract faster and got to the point of improving his game to a NBA level faster and there's no guarantee he plays another year longer than 2015, so that's an extra year of earnings in his bank account. He also was able to have an impact as a rookie, putting up 14/4 in 33 mpg.
I think of Blue the same way I did Buycks when he left. Both had enough athleticism and the physical tools to get some NBA run, but they were also both undersized for their position and needed to work on their game (e.g. becoming point guards) to have any chance of sticking in the NBA. Buycks didn't get the NBA looks he did because Buzz turned him into a PG, it was because of his work in France. I don't see how another year at the college level would've helped Blue. Buzz didn't turn a single guy into a NBA point guard.
Maybe Blue would've been better off going the Euro route, maybe another year would've turned him into a 2nd round pick, but what feels most likely in retrospect, especially looking at his career, is that he just wasn't ever going to be a regular NBA player. It's unfortunate, but the college ranks are full of really good players, legitimate stars, that will never be so much as a regular 15th man on a NBA roster. Blue was a great college player, but in retrospect, I don't think he was ever going to have a regular role in the NBA. I thought so at the time and was wrong. He was too small to be a SG, didn't have the three-point shot to overcome his size issues, and didn't have the handle or vision to be a PG.
I have been closely following Vander's fortunes since he left MU. Several things stand out. He is not consistent in his play.Yes he put up some big G League stats in years past, but the game to game consistency was not there. When he got his chance in the NBA last year he did not capitalize on it, although to be fair he actually did what they asked him to do.
Further , he has never been able to establish himself on any major foreign circuit. In fact in his most recent European stint in Italy, he was cut mid season and came with his tail between his legs after a terrible performance. He did win an MVP of a tournament in Italy but then his shooting fell off a cliff . He is now back in the G league with the Wisconsin Herd and is playing poorly there shooting terribly. The positive is he keeps working hard and trying. Reality is he is going to have to go to a lower foreign league if he wants to make money or just keep kicking around G League as long as he can, but eventually even that ends.
Buycks on the other hand has had several NBA runs . He did reasonably well last year in Detroit and probably would have stuck this season if SVG was not fired. However, unlike Blue, Buycks has done very well on Foreign circuits. Was an MVP in the French League and is back in China at the highest level and putting up big production. Buycks, who also is a tenacious defender, will likely get another chance in the NBA possibly ,as early as this season ,when the Chinese league is over.
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#M2N
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What does the n stand for?
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What does the n stand for?
Netherlands. He's going to play Euro ball.
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Netherlands. He's going to play Euro ball.
?-(
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A good comp I saw for Markus relating to his size is Yogi Ferrell, Indiana guard who I believe was undrafted but was given a shot and made the most of it as a prolific scorer, he is only 6’0, 1 inch taller than Markus.
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I don't know that it is. Yes, in Richardson's case it all worked out, but would he have been better off by waiting? His draft status wouldn't have improved much the next year (Yao Ming was always going #1 and I suspect Jay Williams still gets picked #2). He got to his second contract faster and got to the point of improving his game to a NBA level faster and there's no guarantee he plays another year longer than 2015, so that's an extra year of earnings in his bank account. He also was able to have an impact as a rookie, putting up 14/4 in 33 mpg.
I think of Blue the same way I did Buycks when he left. Both had enough athleticism and the physical tools to get some NBA run, but they were also both undersized for their position and needed to work on their game (e.g. becoming point guards) to have any chance of sticking in the NBA. Buycks didn't get the NBA looks he did because Buzz turned him into a PG, it was because of his work in France. I don't see how another year at the college level would've helped Blue. Buzz didn't turn a single guy into a NBA point guard.
Maybe Blue would've been better off going the Euro route, maybe another year would've turned him into a 2nd round pick, but what feels most likely in retrospect, especially looking at his career, is that he just wasn't ever going to be a regular NBA player. It's unfortunate, but the college ranks are full of really good players, legitimate stars, that will never be so much as a regular 15th man on a NBA roster. Blue was a great college player, but in retrospect, I don't think he was ever going to have a regular role in the NBA. I thought so at the time and was wrong. He was too small to be a SG, didn't have the three-point shot to overcome his size issues, and didn't have the handle or vision to be a PG.
No I’m saying the key is he was a guy who could go 5th overall.
So it doesn’t matter if “people disagreed” with his call. He was gonna get paid.
Vander had zero guarantee of being paid.
So using a 5th overall pick as a talking point was irrelevant
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Netherlands. He's going to play Euro ball.
Unless Norway drafts him first.
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What does the n stand for?
Nationalbasketballassociation
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If Markus continues like this, my "near certainty" that he returns will change. Bardo said it tonight. If you can shoot like that, there will be a place for you in the NBA. I mean, another year isn't going to get him to grow taller.
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No I’m saying the key is he was a guy who could go 5th overall.
So it doesn’t matter if “people disagreed” with his call. He was gonna get paid.
Vander had zero guarantee of being paid.
So using a 5th overall pick as a talking point was irrelevant
I agree with you if we're comparing Richardson and Vander. The No. 5 pick in the draft is gonna get a lot of rope even if he sucks, and Richardson didn't suck.
However ...
Being drafted that high certainly is no guarantee that a player will last a long time in the league and make $100 million plus.
MJ drafted Adam Morrison #3 overall in 2006. He lasted only 3 seasons.
The 2000 draft was filled with busts. Here's the top 7:
Kenyon Martin ... Stromile Swift ... Darius Miles ... Marcus Fizer ... Mike Miller ... DerMarr Johnson ... Chris Mihm. Yikes! Mike Miller was the super-duper-duper star of that one.
But yes, PGH32, I think we agree in general. If you're gonna get drafted high, you go, even if you aren't "ready."
Markus is very small and has yet to show he can play anything close to NBA-caliber PG. But the man can shoot (understatement of the year), and there is always a calling for that. It's going to be an interesting next 3+ months for Markus, and then it will be an interesting offseason.
Not a single mock draft has him going in the first round, and most don't have him going in the second. It will be up to him to prove he belongs.
I'm glad I get to watch him, whether it's for just another 3+ months or another season and a half.
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If Markus continues like this, my "near certainty" that he returns will change. Bardo said it tonight. If you can shoot like that, there will be a place for you in the NBA. I mean, another year isn't going to get him to grow taller.
(http://www.draftexpress.com/gallery/JimmerFredette/1296617103.jpg)
Sultan, I would like to introduce you to my friend, Jimmer.
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I agree with you if we're comparing Richardson and Vander. The No. 5 pick in the draft is gonna get a lot of rope even if he sucks, and Richardson didn't suck.
However ...
Being drafted that high certainly is no guarantee that a player will last a long time in the league and make $100 million plus.
MJ drafted Adam Morrison #3 overall in 2006. He lasted only 3 seasons.
The 2000 draft was filled with busts. Here's the top 7:
Kenyon Martin ... Stromile Swift ... Darius Miles ... Marcus Fizer ... Mike Miller ... DerMarr Johnson ... Chris Mihm. Yikes! Mike Miller was the super-duper-duper star of that one.
But yes, PGH32, I think we agree in general. If you're gonna get drafted high, you go, even if you aren't "ready."
Markus is very small and has yet to show he can play anything close to NBA-caliber PG. But the man can shoot (understatement of the year), and there is always a calling for that. It's going to be an interesting next 3+ months for Markus, and then it will be an interesting offseason.
Not a single mock draft has him going in the first round, and most don't have him going in the second. It will be up to him to prove he belongs.
I'm glad I get to watch him, whether it's for just another 3+ months or another season and a half.
Kenyon Martin had a nice career. 15 years. Was an all star. Had a nice 10 years to start his career
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Mihm and Miles both played 9 years in the NBA, not bad. Mikes had microfracture hampering his career.
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i love the optimism of my fellow 'scoopers. only about 10% feel he gowne up to 50/50 he stays
i will never forget 2002/03 walking(not streaming) onto the court after we beat cincinnati. i was with my then 9 year old son who eventually went to MU, and literally ran into dwayne thru all the mayhem. my son, all 4' 10" of him, looked up at dwayne with the most sincerest of questions and asked him if he was staying...he looked down without hesitation and said...YES! i knew he was gowne, but nothing wrong with little the little guy dreaming. i think he(my son) was more in awe of just meeting him face to face. he never held it against him in any way and probably understood as dwayne pretty much became an instant nba star.
the only other people my son could have met at the time and just be pee in the pants in FREAKIN AWE would have been bret favre, his daughter brittney ;D) or God
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back to the markus thing-i think he may be weighing out some potential legacies including a good education. let's just be realistic and say MU does well, goes deep into the dance and gets to the 16 or the 8. he knows returning for his senior season, he gets another year of education, college fun, big man on campus, and BIG mention among the ncaa elite. ALSO, he would be returning to essentially a better team losing only matt while gaining a year experience plus a couple of promising new comers. MU would probably be on the short list to win the BIG ONE. think of the numbers he could put up over a 4 year career
i believe returning would be a WIN-WIN with the exception of an injury.
there have been many "little guys" doing very well in the nba-
calvin murphy-isiah thomas-spudd webb-mugsy bogues-earl boykins-charlie criss-nate robinson-
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(http://www.draftexpress.com/gallery/JimmerFredette/1296617103.jpg)
Sultan, I would like to introduce you to my friend, Jimmer.
Markus is a better shooter than Jimmer was. He's also quicker.
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there have been many "little guys" doing very well in the nba-
calvin murphy-isiah thomas-spudd webb-mugsy bogues-earl boykins-charlie criss-nate robinson-
Most of these guys are from a by-gone era. Welcome to the modern NBA where 280 pound guys (LeBron) and seven-footers (KD) shoot as well as those little guys.
The modern NBA has no problem finding guys that can knock down a 3. Tons of guys in the G-League can do this.
What the modern NBA needs is guys with the size to defend. Cannot make every defensive play 5 against 4.
Of course their are exceptions, see Steph Curry. As soon as MH start taking and hitting shots 15 feet behind the arc, I'll reconsider.
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Markus has a better career EFG and 3P% than Curry did at Davidson.
Of course that doesn't guaranty anything.
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Markus has a better career EFG and 3P% than Curry did at Davidson.
Of course that doesn't guaranty anything.
Curry is also 5 inches taller.
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Curry is also 5 inches taller.
Yep. As I said though, one more year of college isn't going to make him taller.
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I don't know if he will go or not. If he's First Team All-American, it's been a little while since one of those guys stayed. Doug McDermott was the last to come back for another season after he was named First Team in 2013. Before that it was Jared Sullinger in 2011.
I'm not sure if Howard would get drafted even after a First Team year. My guess is he'd go in the second round just because his one skill is so elite, but in the last draft, no one whose height started with a 5 was drafted in either round. That said, I don't see his stock improving significantly if he is a First Team All-American. Does a POY award (if he doesn't win it this year) really move the needle that much?
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That's why I think he goes through the process. Go through what Ethan Happ did last year. There's really no harm and only has an upside.
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Jimmer isn't a great comparison. As someone mentioned above, Markus is much quicker and Jimmer is a bigger guy. Fred Van Vleet might be a better comparison. If Markus continues the trajectory of playing better defense he has a chance to make it since Van Vleet is a tenacious defender, but I'd put it at 5%. 0% chance he leaves this year.
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A slower, better shooting Van Vleet. I like it!
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(http://www.draftexpress.com/gallery/JimmerFredette/1296617103.jpg)
Sultan, I would like to introduce you to my friend, Jimmer.
Hasn’t Jimmer been getting NBA offers but elected to stay in China?
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Let him go through process, no harm anymore. Good reforms by evil NCAA that allows that ability to do so. I think he comes back when they tell him where he will be drafted if he is drafted at all. In the meantime enjoying his shooting especially when under control Markus is out there lighting it up....fun to watch.
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I think about Vander Blue. Premature to say the least. Henry Ellerson has done little but sit on the end of the bench.... Next year he will start an endless round of being the marginal player thrown in as part of a deal....
Could Markus listen to the wrong voices and take the plunge into the draft....perhaps. I think he has clearly improved this season but not to the point he’s NBA ready.....yet.
Still any player with professional dreams has to know they are always one freak injury away from never being able to play again...
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Unless Norway drafts him first.
Or the North Dakota semi pro league.
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I think about Vander Blue. Premature to say the least. Henry Ellerson has done little but sit on the end of the bench.... Next year he will start an endless round of being the marginal player thrown in as part of a deal....
That was the way it was looking for Jae to start his career as well. His trajectory changed dramatically.
Not that I think they are comparable, however. I agree that your assessment seems like Henry's probable path.
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Vander simply did not want to be in college any longer. His situation was different from Henry's and both are different from what Markus will face.
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On this point....exactly right. 3 distinctly different situations. End game is the same...but all different applications.
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On this point....exactly right. 3 distinctly different situations. End game is the same...but all different applications.
The story keeps getting worse and worse for poor Vander. Tonight he only played 6 minutes for the Wisconsin Herd. In the space of two years he has gone from g league MVP to potentially getting cut.
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Maybe I’m being delusional, but I think Howard stays for his fourth year solely because he wants to be at MU and do something special his senior year with the team regardless of whether or not he thinks he will be drafted after this year or if he “doesn’t think his stock will get any higher.”
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The story keeps getting worse and worse for poor Vander. Tonight he only played 6 minutes for the Wisconsin Herd. In the space of two years he has gone from g league MVP to potentially getting cut.
His game just doesn’t mesh with how the Bucks want to play. Sounds like his career might be winding down way too soon.
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The story keeps getting worse and worse for poor Vander. Tonight he only played 6 minutes for the Wisconsin Herd. In the space of two years he has gone from g league MVP to potentially getting cut.
Wonder if Vander made some poor lifestyle decisions that potentially spiraled his career downhill so fast? The Italian experience was odd, and the above. Just doesn't make a lot of sense how he could fall off so far, so fast?
As for Markus - I voted the 40-60% option. He and his brother came up with the "League Me" phrase, as I recall. No doubt it is his end goal. If it is there for the taking after this season in the way of being a projected first round pick, I think it is wishful thinking on our part that he stays for his senior year. He keeps playing this well, despite being 5'10" I think some team would take him late first round. He's young and super high character with an elite skill.
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I believe league me is the name of his brothers training business
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Wonder if Vander made some poor lifestyle decisions that potentially spiraled his career downhill so fast? The Italian experience was odd, and the above. Just doesn't make a lot of sense how he could fall off so far, so fast?
As for Markus - I voted the 40-60% option. He and his brother came up with the "League Me" phrase, as I recall. No doubt it is his end goal. If it is there for the taking after this season in the way of being a projected first round pick, I think it is wishful thinking on our part that he stays for his senior year. He keeps playing this well, despite being 5'10" I think some team would take him late first round. He's young and super high character with an elite skill.
Players drafted under 6 feet
2018 = 0
2017 = 0
2016 = Tyler Ulis (5'10") #34 (second round #4)
Kahlil Fielder (5'9") #54 (second round #24)
2015 = 0
2014 = 0
2013 = Shane Larkin (5'11") #18 (first round #18)
Pierre Jackson (5' 10") #40 (second round #10)
2012 = 0
2011 = Isiah Thomas (5' 10") #60 (last player drafted)
2010 = 0
-----------------
Ulis has played 133 games, starting only 58. Journeymen, averaging 7.5 points a game
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3136194/tyler-ulis
Kahlil Fielder, out of the NBA after playing in 58 games over three seasons, starting none
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3062892/kay-felder
Shane Larkin out of the NBA after playing in 256 games over four seasons, starting only 41
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2596158/shane-larkin
Pierre Jackson out of the NBA after playing only eight games, starting one his rookie year.
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2578204/pierre-jackson
Isiah Thomas is a legit player, the only one under 6'0'' drafted in the last eight years.
----
So in the last eight drafts, exactly one player under 6 feet has been drafted in the first round and Larkin did not distinguish himself.
The only way MH gets drafted in the first round is he drops 40 in a half to win the NCAA championship game and gets invited to talk about it on the Today show and Jimmy Fallon. Short of that type of buzz, plenty of teams will invite him to camp but no one will draft him.
Returns his senior year
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Good research by Smuggles shows how unlikely it is that Markus will get drafted at all, let alone in the first round, and let alone after this season.
I hope he plays so well in the NCAA tournament that he forces NBA GMs to take him seriously. Maybe 25 a game during our run to the second title in Marquette history would do it!
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Players drafted under 6 feet
2018 = 0
2017 = 0
2016 = Tyler Ulis (5'10") #34 (second round #4)
Kahlil Fielder (5'9") #54 (second round #24)
2015 = 0
2014 = 0
2013 = Shane Larkin (5'11") #18 (first round #18)
Pierre Jackson (5' 10") #40 (second round #10)
2012 = 0
2011 = Isiah Thomas (5' 10") #60 (last player drafted)
2010 = 0
-----------------
Ulis has played 133 games, starting only 58. Journeymen, averaging 7.5 points a game
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3136194/tyler-ulis
Kahlil Fielder, out of the NBA after playing in 58 games over three seasons, starting none
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3062892/kay-felder
Shane Larkin out of the NBA after playing in 256 games over four seasons, starting only 41
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2596158/shane-larkin
Pierre Jackson out of the NBA after playing only eight games, starting one his rookie year.
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2578204/pierre-jackson
Isiah Thomas is a legit player, the only one under 6'0'' drafted in the last eight years.
----
So in the last eight drafts, exactly one player under 6 feet has been drafted in the first round and Larkin did not distinguish himself.
The only way MH gets drafted in the first round is he drops 40 in a half to win the NCAA championship game and gets invited to talk about it on the Today show and Jimmy Fallon. Short of that type of buzz, plenty of teams will invite him to camp but no one will draft him. It took Ulis running the point to win the Championship game to generate enough buzz to even get drafted in the second round.
Returns his senior year
?? Ullis ran the show for a Kentucky team that got bounced in round 2 then declared early
Not sure what you were looking at there but it's not true.
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?? Ullis ran the show for a Kentucky team that got bounced in round 2 then declared early
Not sure what you were looking at there but it's not true.
Jumbled him with Tyrus Jones … sorry about that (took that part out)
(Jones is listed as 6' 2" and was the #24 pick in the 2015 draft)
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Good research by Smuggles shows how unlikely it is that Markus will get drafted at all, let alone in the first round, and let alone after this season.
I hope he plays so well in the NCAA tournament that he forces NBA GMs to take him seriously. Maybe 25 a game during our run to the second title in Marquette history would do it!
Exactly, the only way MH is a first round pick is he impressed so much on the big stage that his parents have Jim Nantz's mobile number. And before he is drafted, we are hanging a "real and substantial" banner in Fiserv.
So, yes I sincerely hope he does what it takes to be a first round pick!
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None of those guys could shoot like Markus however. Again, not saying he would be drafted or would stick, but he is very good at something the NBA covets.
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None of those guys could shoot like Markus however. Again, not saying he would be drafted or would stick, but he is very good at something the NBA covets.
This is true, Sultan.
And I was wrong about Lazar; never thought he'd be a first-round pick. And I was wrong about Buycks; never thought he would play a second in the NBA. Markus can shoot the rock, and more than ever the NBA is a shooters' league.
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This is true, Sultan.
And I was wrong about Lazar; never thought he'd be a first-round pick. And I was wrong about Buycks; never thought he would play a second in the NBA. Markus can shoot the rock, and more than ever the NBA is a shooters' league.
Which is why every team in the league will invite him to camp as a free agent. But use a draft pick on a 5'10 shooter that cannot really run the point or guard 6'4 guys????
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Anybody care to change their answer?
I'd put it at about 50-50 right now.
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Anybody care to change their answer?
I'd put it at about 50-50 right now.
Nope.
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Anybody care to change their answer?
I'd put it at about 50-50 right now.
It’s on League scouts/GMs and Markus. If yes, say Hi to Symir Torrence in 2019. If no, expect more heavy downpour 3-torrents and Symir 2020.
I’ll take either scenario.
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Anybody care to change their answer?
I'd put it at about 50-50 right now.
I find it unlikely unless he vastly improves his non-shooting skills. I can't see any team drafting a sub-six-foot guard with his turnover stats.
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Markus is great and i love him at Marquette, however i think the 9 turnovers stand out as much, if not more to NBA GMs as tge 53 points do.
Additionally, his major stinker games, such as 2-15 at SJU dont do him any favors. Pros dont get taken out of college games so often. And while Markus has definitely cut down on the stinkers the standard deviation of his level of play is still very high. Needs more consistancy.
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As great as Markus was, last night didn't do much for his draft stock. Creighton plays 4 guys 6-5 and under almost all the time.
The NBA is a different game. Many 6-7 to 6-9 wings to contest shots on the perimeter. Markus needs to perform well in workouts against NBA prospects or games against other a legitimate draft prospects.
Kansas, Indiana, St. John's...those games aren't forgotten just because Markus lights up Kansas State, Buffalo, and Creighton.
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Is he suddenly 4 inches taller? If his height hasn't changed, then my expectations as to whether he returns haven't changed.
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I think it's pretty clear that Markus will finish his career as Marquette's all-time leading scorers, and one of the all-time greats. I love the kid. He's fantastic, and really, really fun to watch. But, I really just don't see him having much of an impact in the NBA unless he gets significantly better with the ball. I think he'll probably get drafted in the second round after his senior season. Some coach will try to figure out a way to take advantage of his great scoring ability, but it's tough for a 5'10" guard in the NBA unless he's got an incredible handle.
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Anybody care to change their answer?
I'd put it at about 50-50 right now.
No change to my answer, still in the "Probably not, 20-40%" camp along with 2.9% of the respondents.
(https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/dozens_of_us_arrested_development.gif)
Still more likely that not he goes pro in my mind. A major slump, injury, or a burning desire to win a natty with his boys right after his 21st bday (assuming we don't get it done this year!) are the biggest impediments at this point. Not height.
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As great as Markus was, last night didn't do much for his draft stock. Creighton plays 4 guys 6-5 and under almost all the time.
The NBA is a different game. Many 6-7 to 6-9 wings to contest shots on the perimeter. Markus needs to perform well in workouts against NBA prospects or games against other a legitimate draft prospects.
Kansas, Indiana, St. John's...those games aren't forgotten just because Markus lights up Kansas State, Buffalo, and Creighton.
Just to play devil's advocate ... in the NBA, especially at first, Markus presumably would be used as a spot-up shooter. There would be actual NBA stars to drive and kick it out to him, and he often would be open to fire. Think of how effective he was as a freshman, when we had Rowsey, Sam, Reinhardt, JJJ, etc. -- and every NBA team (even the bad ones) have playmakers a lot better than those guys. Markus is the man now, ball in his hands 80% of the time, maybe more. That would not be the case in the NBA, where he would be Craig Hodges or J.J. Redick.
Having said all that, I still find it hard to believe that somebody his height, who is as loose with basketball as he is, could make it in the NBA. But he's a pretty amazing young man, so I don't put it past him.
Still more likely that not he goes pro in my mind.
I certainly wouldn't doubt that this turns out to be true, EMR.
When you feel you have accomplished a ton, and you have confidence in your ability, the allure of testing yourself at the highest level is hard to fight. He obviously will go through all the camps and evaluations he legally can, and unless he hears repeatedly that he has zero chance to make it in the league, it might be difficult for him not to go.
Enjoying the hell out of watching him while he's here!
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That would not be the case in the NBA, where he would be Craig Hodges or J.J. Redick.
But again, that illustrates one of the key challenges he faces. As great as Markus is, he's somewhere in the range of 4-6" shorter than those guys.
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Just to play devil's advocate ... in the NBA, especially at first, Markus presumably would be used as a spot-up shooter. There would be actual NBA stars to drive and kick it out to him, and he often would be open to fire. Think of how effective he was as a freshman, when we had Rowsey, Sam, Reinhardt, JJJ, etc. -- and every NBA team (even the bad ones) have playmakers a lot better than those guys. Markus is the man now, ball in his hands 80% of the time, maybe more. That would not be the case in the NBA, where he would be Craig Hodges or J.J. Redick.
Having said all that, I still find it hard to believe that somebody his height, who is as loose with basketball as he is, could make it in the NBA. But he's a pretty amazing young man, so I don't put it past him.
I certainly wouldn't doubt that this turns out to be true, EMR.
When you feel you have accomplished a ton, and you have confidence in your ability, the allure of testing yourself at the highest level is hard to fight. He obviously will go through all the camps and evaluations he legally can, and unless he hears repeatedly that he has zero chance to make it in the league, it might be difficult for him not to go.
Enjoying the hell out of watching him while he's here!
To devil's advocate your devil's advocacy:
Trae Young: 6'2", 180 lbs., 20% TO Rate, 19.3 years old, #5 overall pick
Isaiah Thomas, 5'8", 185 lbs, 18.9% TO Rate, 21.9 years old, #60 overall pick, proven high level player in the NBA
Markus Howard: 5'11", 175 lbs, 17.6% TO Rate, 19.8 years old
Reports of Markus' looseness with the ball have been greatly exaggerated! He compares favorably to a couple recent small/slight guys in terms of overall efficiency, age, and handle. We're all so laser focused on every possession as super fans of this team that we think his TO's are out of the ordinary.
I'm also enjoying the sh*t out of the ride he's taking us on!
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To devil's advocate your devil's advocacy:
Trae Young: 6'2", 180 lbs., 20% TO Rate, 19.3 years old, #5 overall pick
Isaiah Thomas, 5'8", 185 lbs, 18.9% TO Rate, 21.9 years old, #60 overall pick, proven high level player in the NBA
Markus Howard: 5'11", 175 lbs, 17.6% TO Rate, 19.8 years old
Reports of Markus' looseness with the ball have been greatly exaggerated! He compares favorably to a couple recent small/slight guys in terms of overall efficiency, age, and handle. We're all so laser focused on every possession as super fans of this team that we think his TO's are out of the ordinary.
I'm also enjoying the sh*t out of the ride he's taking us on!
Oh yeah, well now I'll play ...
Seriously, that's a really good post. We fans do get tunnel vision when it comes to our own players, which can be good and bad.
I'd love to see Markus make it. More than ever, the NBA is about spacing the floor and shooting the 3. He certainly can help in that department.
When you have the ball as much as Markus does, you are gonna have turnovers. You've converted me - ha!
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I think Markus is pretty much a lock 2nd rounder whenever he declares. Not sure if he will stick but a team will give him a shot as a bench scorer.
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I posted something similar in another thread, but I do think the amount of time the ball is in his hands has to come into play in assessing his turnovers. I'm not sure if there is an advance metric for TOs/minute, or more importantly, accounting for usage.
I tend to think his size will keep him out of the first round of the draft, but when you think about how unique what he is doing is I'm not sure it is the no brainer I would have thought it would be. What a remarkable talent.
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I think Markus is pretty much a lock 2nd rounder whenever he declares. Not sure if he will stick but a team will give him a shot as a bench scorer.
If he's a lock, sure would be interesting to hear scouts say that or some draft boards. Non existent on them.
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I posted something similar in another thread, but I do think the amount of time the ball is in his hands has to come into play in assessing his turnovers. I'm not sure if there is an advance metric for TOs/minute, or more importantly, accounting for usage.
I tend to think his size will keep him out of the first round of the draft, but when you think about how unique what he is doing is I'm not sure it is the no brainer I would have thought it would be. What a remarkable talent.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=57296.msg1074680#msg1074680
a few posts above yours my man
it's called TO rate
His 17.6% is in line with players who have the ball in their hands as much as he does.
Better than comps like Trae Young & Isaiah Thomas
And exactly in line with DWade's sophomore year (literally both at 17.6%)
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Current Mock Draft Prospects for Selected Big East Guards
https://www.nbadraft.net/2020mock_draft
Markus Howard 55th in 2020 ( up from 56th)
Ty Shon Alexander 28th in 2020
Shamorie Ponds 54th in 2019
Myles Powell NR
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https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=57296.msg1074680#msg1074680
a few posts above yours my man
it's called TO rate
His 17.6% is in line with players who have the ball in their hands as much as he does.
Better than comps like Trae Young & Isaiah Thomas
And exactly in line with DWade's sophomore year (literally both at 17.6%)
Thanks. Didn't think that one through.
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I think Markus is pretty much a lock 2nd rounder whenever he declares. Not sure if he will stick but a team will give him a shot as a bench scorer.
Better off going undrafted than in the second, especially late second. He'll get to choose the place he's most likely to earn a roster spot.
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Thanks. Didn't think that one through.
On Basketball-Reference the formula for TO% is 100*TO/(FGA+.44*FTA+TO). Is that right?
That means that TO% is basically a ratio of how many times your turn it over vs. how many times you shoot, assuming that .44*FTA is in there to represent the times you shot but it was not counted because you were fouled). It seems strange to me that assists would not be included in the denominator, since that would be a productive use of a possession that was not a TO and would be closer to what you are trying to measure with TO%, though not near perfect given all the times you handle the ball and successfully move it on to another player but it does not result in a score directly from the pass.
Logically then, a high volume shooter would have a lower TO% than a low volume shooter even if they had the ball in their hands the same amount of time and turned it over similarly. That seems to me to be counter to what is trying to be measured.
What am I missing?
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Current Mock Draft Prospects for Selected Big East Guards
https://www.nbadraft.net/2020mock_draft
Markus Howard 55th in 2020 ( up from 56th)
Ty Shon Alexander 28th in 2020
Shamorie Ponds 54th in 2019
Myles Powell NR
Ponds they barely have in the 2nd round of this coming draft. Ponds is more NBA sized than Markus, IMO.
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The kid is arguably the best scorer in college basketball and has improved to the point he's a pretty good defender at the college level. The size issue will always be there so he likely won't ever be a guy that can play extended minutes in a playoff series because he'd get targeted, but he's absolutely skilled enough to be a bench player in the NBA. JJ Barea is still a good player in the league. Isaiah Caanan. Isaiah Thomas. Aaron Brooks. DJ Augustin.
It's not like Markus is 5'7. Plenty of 5'11 guys in the NBA. He'll get a shot whenever he goes, but I think he will be back next year.
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I think about Butch Lee. Goes from National player of the year to a fairly bland NBA career during which he was on a Lakers Championship team. Injuries end his career. Markus is a great shooter but I think he isn’t as good as Butch was. I think going to the NBA now wouldn’t be the best idea.....but what do I know. Henry Ellenson as well...
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Ponds they barely have in the 2nd round of this coming draft. Ponds is more NBA sized than Markus, IMO.
...and I like Ponds' NBA future more than Markus'. Size helps, but Ponds is better defender as well.
Markus...prove me wrong!
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As great as Markus was, last night didn't do much for his draft stock. Creighton plays 4 guys 6-5 and under almost all the time.
The NBA is a different game. Many 6-7 to 6-9 wings to contest shots on the perimeter. Markus needs to perform well in workouts against NBA prospects or games against other a legitimate draft prospects.
Kansas, Indiana, St. John's...those games aren't forgotten just because Markus lights up Kansas State, Buffalo, and Creighton.
This is where I'm at. Watching last night made me realize that he will have a role in the NBA somewhere. He's simply too good of a scorer not to. But if I'm an NBA GM I am very hesitant to draft Howard when he puts up a stat line like he did against St. John's. When Howard has played big guards with long wingspans which are all you get in the NBA he has struggled. He'll find a spot somewhere but unless he becomes a much better facilitator, I don't think he is ever a first round pick.
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The kid is arguably the best scorer in college basketball and has improved to the point he's a pretty good defender at the college level. The size issue will always be there so he likely won't ever be a guy that can play extended minutes in a playoff series because he'd get targeted, but he's absolutely skilled enough to be a bench player in the NBA. JJ Barea is still a good player in the league. Isaiah Caanan. Isaiah Thomas. Aaron Brooks. DJ Augustin.
It's not like Markus is 5'7. Plenty of 5'11 guys in the NBA. He'll get a shot whenever he goes, but I think he will be back next year.
I believe there are only four players in the NBA listed under 6' ... Isaiah Thomas, Kay Felder, Tyler Ulis and Ty Lawson. The rest of the guys you name above are listed at 6' (which may or may not be generous).
I think there's a role for Markus in the NBA, but his height, defensive deficiencies and lack of true point guard skills means he's probably not an early pick.
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On Basketball-Reference the formula for TO% is 100*TO/(FGA+.44*FTA+TO). Is that right?
That means that TO% is basically a ratio of how many times your turn it over vs. how many times you shoot, assuming that .44*FTA is in there to represent the times you shot but it was not counted because you were fouled). It seems strange to me that assists would not be included in the denominator, since that would be a productive use of a possession that was not a TO and would be closer to what you are trying to measure with TO%, though not near perfect given all the times you handle the ball and successfully move it on to another player but it does not result in a score directly from the past.
Logically then, a high volume shooter would have a lower TO% than a low volume shooter even if they had the ball in their hands the same amount of time and turned it over similarly. That seems to me to be counter to what is trying to be measured.
What am I missing?
What you're missing is that is 'basketball-reference', who no one should use. It's an overly simplistic calc and complete trash.
The TO% rate that many of us refer to here is different than basketball-reference's dumbo-crap.
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Markus could do Isaiah Thomas things in the league just watch
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I think it depends quite a bit on how far MU goes in the tourney. If I recall (without remembering the exact draft boards) Wade's stock rose considerably due to the FF run (seems he was late lottery/just out before the NCAAs?)
IF somehow we make a similar run, on Markus' back, this year then I could see some team with a late 1st round pick taking a chance on a guy "everyone is talking about". Markus is exciting to watch. When he's on he's probably the most exciting to watch in CBB right now. If some non-contending NBA team thinks he could be exciting to watch at the next level they may overlook his other deficiencies if they think he can put a few more butts in seats. The NBA is a business after all.
Always a risk of injury, and if Markus thinks he can get 1st round money this year probably a better bet than risking the variability of second round money in 2020 (not to mentioned the NPV of an extra year of earnings at age 20).
https://hypebeast.com/2017/6/nba-draft-contract-values-first-second-round-drop
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Draft rankings this early are usually too generous to American players. I think there will be a few pick and stash euros that would push Howard down.
I always assumed he stayed four years but if we have a deep run and he keeps scoring, why not attempt a NBA run from a career/money perspective? Wojo isn’t going to get him to grow next year and he hasn’t developed point guard skills in three years. Probably better off cashing in and hoping to get drafted in Mid-second with teams thinking they can mold him into a spark plug off the bench. If not, make money in Europe. Next year he is probably in the same position but a year older.
He seems to like college so there is value in that on a personal level.
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Always a risk of injury, and if Markus thinks he can get 1st round money this year probably a better bet than risking the variability of second round money in 2020 (not to mentioned the NPV of an extra year of earnings at age 20).
I think if Markus has credible people advising him that he will get drafted in the first round this year, he should go. I'd hate to lose him, but he should go. Personally, I'll be surprised if that's the case, but I'd love to be surprised. Having guys drafted in the first round is great for the program.
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he hasn’t developed point guard skills in three years.
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Disagree with this, i think he is noticeably better now than he was at the start of the year!
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Disagree with this, i think he is noticeably better now than he was at the start of the year!
I love Markus, and I agree his point guard skills have improved, but I if I am being honest, I would say they have gone from a D to a C-plus at best.
There are no C-plus point guards in the NBA.
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What you're missing is that is 'basketball-reference', who no one should use. It's an overly simplistic calc and complete trash.
The TO% rate that many of us refer to here is different than basketball-reference's dumbo-crap.
Where would I find a good place for the definitions you use? I am quite literate in baseball stats, but not so much in basketball and would like to be better informed. Since baseball has a good set of stats that are less context driven, I tend to think of them as more telling than most basketball stats, since you are much more dependent on your teammates in basketball.
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I love Markus, and I agree his point guard skills have improved, but I if I am being honest, I would say they have gone from a D to a C-plus at best.
There are no C-plus point guards in the NBA.
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily grade him higher, but at the beginning of the year I thought it was kind of a hopeless project and that point guards are born and not made. Now I'm on board and hopeful that Markus will continue to improve. Not sure he'll improve to an NBA draftable level but I was more disagreeing with the narrow point that he hasn't improved his PG skills.
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nm
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Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily grade him higher, but at the beginning of the year I thought it was kind of hopeless project and that point guards are born and not made. Now I'm on board and hopeful that Markus will continue to improve. Not sure he'll improve to an NBA draftable level but I was more disagreeing with the narrow point that he hasn't improved his PG skills.
I think his ball handling has improved drastically. Court vision is still pretty bad.
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I think his ball handling has improved drastically. Court vision is still pretty bad.
I don't think his vision is as bad as some here do. A lot of the time, I think he knows who is open and where they are, he just can't make the pass. A high percentage of our P&R's someone is open under the basket, but Markus is doubled and only being 5-11 can't make the pass. If he forces it, and it gets picked off, it's an easy two the other way, and we're all complaining about his TO's. Just because someone is open, doesn't always mean the pass is there, or that continuing to dribble isn't the right decision.
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The other question is, will "0" be retired if he stays four years?
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Markus may well go into the books as the MU GOAT. When he’s unconscious he’s literally unstoppable. But if he could get his teammates involved more I think this could be up there with one of the best MU teams of all time.
As it is, it’s a big ask for him to go unconscious 4 games in a row in March to put this team in rarefied air. I’m not confident we get past Markus’ “down” game in the tourney.
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The other question is, will "0" be retired if he stays four years?
At a minimum he’ll be all time leading scorer - by a wide margin - of course it will be retired.
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The other question is, will "0" be retired if he stays four years?
Actully, his jersey would be retired, not the number “0”.
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Disagree with this, i think he is noticeably better now than he was at the start of the year!
Agreed
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Where would I find a good place for the definitions you use? I am quite literate in baseball stats, but not so much in basketball and would like to be better informed. Since baseball has a good set of stats that are less context driven, I tend to think of them as more telling than most basketball stats, since you are much more dependent on your teammates in basketball.
From kenpom.com (where I pulled the data) below:
Turnover Rate (TORate): This is the percentage of personal possessions used on turnovers. It can be highly dependent on context. Players that do little passing or dribbling (i.e. spot-up shooters) will have an artificially deflated TO%.
https://kenpom.com/blog/help-with-team-page/
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Markus may well go into the books as the MU GOAT. When he’s unconscious he’s literally unstoppable. But if he could get his teammates involved more I think this could be up there with one of the best MU teams of all time.
As it is, it’s a big ask for him to go unconscious 4 games in a row in March to put this team in rarefied air. I’m not confident we get past Markus’ “down” game in the tourney.
This feels like recency bias. He's an amazing scorer, great kid, so thrilled to watch him play. But the MU GOAT, I just can't go there. Not sure he even makes the Marquette Mt. Rushmore, not yet anyway. Fair or not, team success is usually part of that equation. There's the defensive part, which has improved but still has a ways to go. We've had guys in the past that were elite offensive and defensive players. Don't think anyone with a straight face can say that with MH. One could also argue college basketball in the past was better in the sense that guys stayed 3 or 4 years so the type of players were more mature, seasoned, more NBA ready college players in NCAA because they had no other choice. I'm not arguing individually today's players are worse, in many ways they are better (bigger, quicker, stronger), but with all the movement to leave early and inexperience that remains it should be factored in.
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Markus may well go into the books as the MU GOAT. When he’s unconscious he’s literally unstoppable. But if he could get his teammates involved more I think this could be up there with one of the best MU teams of all time.
As it is, it’s a big ask for him to go unconscious 4 games in a row in March to put this team in rarefied air. I’m not confident we get past Markus’ “down” game in the tourney.
Been thinking about this too... Wade had some struggles against Holy Cross & Missouri in '03, and as a result we struggled. Diener stepped up huge against HC & Mizzou, and Novak went apesh*t down the stretch & OT against Mizzou. Then Wade woke up in the 2H against Pitt and went on a 3 half tear. Who would be Markus's Diener/Novak this year? The Hausers? I could see it. Just need to give him enough chances and Markus can get hot enough to beat anyone in college BB.
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At a minimum he’ll be all time leading scorer - by a wide margin - of course it will be retired.
Is there an updated list with where Markus is now out there anywhere?
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Markus may well go into the books as the MU GOAT. When he’s unconscious he’s literally unstoppable. But if he could get his teammates involved more I think this could be up there with one of the best MU teams of all time.
He's good, but really?
Better than DWade, who put us on his back and carried us to a Final Four?
Better than Butch and Bo, the nucleus of our National Championship team?
Better than Jim Chones, who was so good he only lasted two years?
Better than Maurice Lucas, who carried us to the National Championship game in 1974?
I could go on. Markus may be among the Top 5 or so best of all time at MU, but to be the GOAT requires that the team also be among the GOATs. We're not there yet. That's why people like Brady, Michael, Magic, Kareem and others are talked about as GOATs.
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He currently has:
- 4 highest scoring games in Marquette history.
- 2 highest scoring games in Big East history
And is on pace for:
- Marquette single season scoring record
- Marquette all-time scoring record
- Big East all-time scoring record
And has decent shots at:
- Various player of the year honors
- All-American honors
I don't even think he would have to play 4 years to warrant a number retirement.
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He's good, but really?
Better than DWade, who put us on his back and carried us to a Final Four?
Better than Butch and Bo, the nucleus of our National Championship team?
Better than Jim Chones, who was so good he only lasted two years?
Better than Maurice Lucas, who carried us to the National Championship game in 1974?
I could go on. Markus may be among the Top 5 or so best of all time at MU, but to be the GOAT requires that the team also be among the GOATs. We're not there yet. That's why people like Brady, Michael, Magic, Kareem and others are talked about as GOATs.
So if Markus goes cold and the Hauser brothers go off come tournament time and bring us to a FF can he then be the GOAT?
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I don't think his vision is as bad as some here do. A lot of the time, I think he knows who is open and where they are, he just can't make the pass. A high percentage of our P&R's someone is open under the basket, but Markus is doubled and only being 5-11 can't make the pass. If he forces it, and it gets picked off, it's an easy two the other way, and we're all complaining about his TO's. Just because someone is open, doesn't always mean the pass is there, or that continuing to dribble isn't the right decision.
I think this is an excellent point. Watching on TV and even most people watching in the stands don't have a great angle to see whether or not there is a clear passing lane. All we see is a player open and think "why aren't they passing it to the open guy." You don't have to stand right next to a guy to play good defense. Smart defenders know how to play help defense while simultaneously denying any pass that would go to their man.
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He's good, but really?
Better than DWade, who put us on his back and carried us to a Final Four?
Better than Butch and Bo, the nucleus of our National Championship team?
Better than Jim Chones, who was so good he only lasted two years?
Better than Maurice Lucas, who carried us to the National Championship game in 1974?
I could go on. Markus may be among the Top 5 or so best of all time at MU, but to be the GOAT requires that the team also be among the GOATs. We're not there yet. That's why people like Brady, Michael, Magic, Kareem and others are talked about as GOATs.
Simple recency bias. It's not a team issue. It's the fact that 90% of our true All Americans played before many on scoop were born. The only exception is Wade.
A fairer statement is that he might be the greatest pure shooter in Marquette history. THAT I could support.
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I also want you guys to comment on something I still see a little. And let's admit we're nitpicking because he is so good.
I wish Markus moved just a bit better without the ball. I think he can still improve on his court awareness and his ability to be in spots for his teammates to get him the ball easily in good shooting position.
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The other question is, will "0" be retired if he stays four years?
Oliver Lee's gonna tink its four him, aina?
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So if Markus goes cold and the Hauser brothers go off come tournament time and bring us to a FF can he then be the GOAT?
Brother LoudMouth, if we make the Final Four it's going to be because the Hauser Brothers went off AND Markus continues to play at his current level. In that case, I'd agree he would be among the GOATs.
We have 1.4 seasons left to decide this, so I am in no hurry, yet!
Brother Glow, you're right. This is a recency bias.
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Oliver Lee's gonna tink its four him, aina?
Oliver Lee is Vince Carters uncle. How bout those bloodlines.
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He currently has:
- 4 highest scoring games in Marquette history.
- 2 highest scoring games in Big East history
And is on pace for:
- Marquette single season scoring record
- Marquette all-time scoring record
- Big East all-time scoring record
And has decent shots at:
- Various player of the year honors
- All-American honors
I don't even think he would have to play 4 years to warrant a number retirement.
Add 5 games of 9 or more three pointers made, which has only been done one other time at MU.
Also freshman single game record of 34. Pretty sure he was 17 for that one.
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Oliver Lee was Vince Carters uncle. How bout those bloodlines.
OLee ded, hey?
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OLee ded, hey?
4ever, I have not seen that anywhere.
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Where would I find a good place for the definitions you use?
Basketball on Paper. It’s turnovers / ind possessions... the calc of individual possessions is where it gets tricky. Good luck!
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4ever, I have not seen that anywhere.
Just axin' based on Hermie's response, hey?
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Just axin' based on Hermie's response, hey?
Ah.
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At a minimum he’ll be all time leading scorer - by a wide margin - of course it will be retired.
Our current all time leading scorers Jersey isn't retired.
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Markus may well go into the books as the MU GOAT. When he’s unconscious he’s literally unstoppable. But if he could get his teammates involved more I think this could be up there with one of the best MU teams of all time.
As it is, it’s a big ask for him to go unconscious 4 games in a row in March to put this team in rarefied air. I’m not confident we get past Markus’ “down” game in the tourney.
One of the all time great teams??
Define plz
Im not sure its even top 25-30 at this point
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Simple recency bias. It's not a team issue. It's the fact that 90% of our true All Americans played before many on scoop were born. The only exception is Wade.
A fairer statement is that he might be the greatest pure shooter in Marquette history. THAT I could support.
If i voted today id still say novak, but a couple more night like creighton or buffalo and id prolly have to change.
Agree with the whole GOAT thing.
Butch naismith award winner n natl championship. And others mentioned. Gotta play in a final 4 or on a top 5 team to enter that conversation. And we have a lot of greats that have done that soooo until then imo hes just the latest great MU player. Also as good as he is he shoots a hell of a lot. Im quite certain Tony Smith, Aaron Hutchins or Travis Diener never shot anywhere near that many times, but if they did? All three were capable of getting white hot.
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OLee ded, hey?
Good catch 4ever, Corrected to is.
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Yes, I agree GOAT talk depends on NCAA success during his reign. This team COULD make a FF run this year if the stars align. This team SHOULD have a realistic shot (30%) at it next year if he stays.
Markus will own just about every meaningful offensive record when he leaves. If that doesn’t put him in a MU GOAT conversation I don’t know what does.
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But also very correct that dethroning Butch would be a tall order.
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Simple recency bias. It's not a team issue. It's the fact that 90% of our true All Americans played before many on scoop were born. The only exception is Wade.
A fairer statement is that he might be the greatest pure shooter in Marquette history. THAT I could support.
Agree, made a similar decency bias comment earlier today, too.
The other item that some miss are whether past MU coaches would allow their guys as much of a green light that Markus has. The old joke that only Dean Smith could keep Jordan under 20 points a game rings true with a number of coaches.
Also think we were a bit more balanced in the past, so a Wade and certainly guys in the 70’s didn’t have to do what MH sometimes does. Wade was certainly capable of doing 25 a night, he just didn’t need to and didn’t look to.
Three point line not existing for guys in the 70’s also a key component, plus the shot clock, hand checking rules, etc etc
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But also very correct that dethroning Butch would be a tall order.
Having seen Butch and DWade, I think Butch already may be dethroned. I'd make Butch #2, but I think DWade is #1. Bo would be #3, Maurice Lucas #4 and either Jim Chones, George Thompson or Dean Meminger #5.
If we make a Final 4 run, Markus likely would be #3 and if we won a NatChamp, I'd make him the #2 GOAT. I guess I'm biased to an NBA hall-of-famer.
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Also think we were a bit more balanced in the past, so a Wade and certainly guys in the 70’s didn’t have to do what MH sometimes does. Wade was certainly capable of doing 25 a night, he just didn’t need to and didn’t look to.
Tony Smith also was capable of scoring in bunches. My recollection is that when Smith scored a ton, we typically lost. It was usually a bad sign that the rest of the team wasn't doing anything and Smith had to take over.
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Great poll......maybe he can declare. Not get drafted (obviously) and then go play in Europe. 🙄
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Having seen Butch and DWade, I think Butch already may be dethroned. I'd make Butch #2, but I think DWade is #1. Bo would be #3, Maurice Lucas #4 and either Jim Chones, George Thompson or Dean Meminger #5.
If we make a Final 4 run, Markus likely would be #3 and if we won a NatChamp, I'd make him the #2 GOAT. I guess I'm biased to an NBA hall-of-famer.
I need to make the case for Don Kojis somewhere in that mix. The numbers he put up at MU were incredible, led the team to two NCAA tournaments and then obviously he showed it was not a fluke by being named twice to the NBA all star team and ,among other things, dunked on Wilt Chamberlin. I saw the guy a couple of years ago at the alumni game and he looked great hard to believe he was 77 at the time.
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Some folks here seem to know a lot about the inner workings of MU athletics. To any of them (or anybody else who might know), can Markus graduate this year? We all know he is a very smart kid, and guys DO graduate in 3 years sometimes.
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Some folks here seem to know a lot about the inner workings of MU athletics. To any of them (or anybody else who might know), can Markus graduate this year? We all know he is a very smart kid, and guys DO graduate in 3 years sometimes.
Are you thinking grad transfer to a blueblood?
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Are you thinking grad transfer to a blueblood?
Not at all.
I'm thinking that a few folks have said that one reason he might stay is that academics matter to him, a degree matters to him. But if he graduates in 3 years, it takes away that incentive (although he could always take masters-level classes or pursue a second degree).
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5’ 10” shooting guards with limited defense and ball-handling aren’t gong to last in the NBA. He can have a great career in Europe though.
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Add 5 games of 9 or more three pointers made, which has only been done one other time at MU.
Also freshman single game record of 34. Pretty sure he was 17 for that one.
If memory serves me, he broke Ellenson's freshman scoring record of 31. I remember how stunned everyone here was that someone could score 30+.
Little did we know!
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If memory serves me, he broke Ellenson's freshman scoring record of 31. I remember how stunned everyone here was that someone could score 30+.
Little did we know!
https://twitter.com/ike_eke/status/1083205514325094400
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Some folks here seem to know a lot about the inner workings of MU athletics. To any of them (or anybody else who might know), can Markus graduate this year? We all know he is a very smart kid, and guys DO graduate in 3 years sometimes.
No idea on Markus’ standing but my guess would be it’s unlikely. It’s not impossible to do but if I’m not mistaken he passed on a summer session this past summer to stay in Arizona and work with his brother. You need to pretty much take advantage of every session if you want to get done in 3 years. They typically have them take the minimum credits in season to stay eligible for obvious reasons, I believe that number is around 13.
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Not at all.
I'm thinking that a few folks have said that one reason he might stay is that academics matter to him, a degree matters to him. But if he graduates in 3 years, it takes away that incentive (although he could always take masters-level classes or pursue a second degree).
What's stopping him from going to the NBA and continuing his degree online (which they essentially already do)
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No idea on Markus’ standing but my guess would be it’s unlikely. It’s not impossible to do but if I’m not mistaken he passed on a summer session this past summer to stay in Arizona and work with his brother. You need to pretty much take advantage of every session if you want to get done in 3 years. They typically have them take the minimum credits in season to stay eligible for obvious reasons, I believe that number is around 13.
Full time is 12. Which is what 99 percent of athletes will take. Which is really not hard to do
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Having seen Butch and DWade, I think Butch already may be dethroned. I'd make Butch #2, but I think DWade is #1. Bo would be #3, Maurice Lucas #4 and either Jim Chones, George Thompson or Dean Meminger #5.
If we make a Final 4 run, Markus likely would be #3 and if we won a NatChamp, I'd make him the #2 GOAT. I guess I'm biased to an NBA hall-of-famer.
Serious question - does college GOAT status depend on subsequent professional success?
Wade was a fantastic college player. And he might be the best basketball player to have spent time at Marquette. But I'd argue his greatest came more from his NBA career than his MU career.
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dgies
No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.
Also, to me being the greatest at anything includes two characteristics, #1 that person makes others around him much better, and #2 the combination of someone being great and making others around him much better should equal winning in a very, very big way.
Howard is very entertaining to watch, no doubt about it. I have had many casual fans want to talk about him with me, which is nice to see casual wins interested in MU ball again. His place in MU history is yet to be determined, but I think he has a long, long way to go to be a top guard in school history, let alone the GOAT.
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dgies
No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.
Also, to me being the greatest at anything includes two characteristics, #1 that person makes others around him much better, and #2 the combination of someone being great and making others around him much better should equal winning in a very, very big way.
Howard is very entertaining to watch, no doubt about it. I have had many casual fans want to talk about him with me, which is nice to see casual wins interested in MU ball again. His place in MU history is yet to be determined, but I think he has a long, long way to go to be a top guard in school history, let alone the GOAT.
The defensive comment just isn't true this year. When he was alongside Rowsey, sure, but his increased effort and performance on that end is very obvious this season. It helps that he can take the opposing team's worst offensive guard, but he's been a capable defender and him not being a turnstile has helped our defensive turnaround this year.
It's more than the eye test, too. Synergy had him in the 91st percentile on the defensive end going into Creighton. Now I don't think anyone would believe he's a better defender than Sacar (who ends up with the opponent's best guard most nights) as the numbers indicate, but Howard is significantly better than he was in his first two seasons.
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I agree GOAT is more than just points, but Markus has a very high likelihood to be #1 or #2 when he leaves in MU all time:
Points
Scoring Average
3pt %
FT%
An certainly will be in the top 5 of each of those.
No other MU player is in the top 5 of more than 2 offensive categories.
In addition to holding all these single-game records.
I know it's difficult to compare eras, etc. But if being the best offensive player in MU history is coupled with some real NCAA success over the next two seasons I think he is firmly in a MU GOAT conversation.
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dgies
No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.
Also, to me being the greatest at anything includes two characteristics, #1 that person makes others around him much better, and #2 the combination of someone being great and making others around him much better should equal winning in a very, very big way.
Howard is very entertaining to watch, no doubt about it. I have had many casual fans want to talk about him with me, which is nice to see casual wins interested in MU ball again. His place in MU history is yet to be determined, but I think he has a long, long way to go to be a top guard in school history, let alone the GOAT.
Brother Goose:
We're in agreement. For Markus to be a GOAT contender, we have to be a Final Four team and possibly a NatChamp. To do that will mean raising further the contribution of the Hausers, Theo and Ed and Sacar and it means being tough on defense. It's less about scoring 50+ points a game and more about making sure there is a stud on a night when Markus gets 10-15 points.
Look GOAT status is about winning. Here at Marquette, that's a very high bar given who has come before Markus. Most of the people in our GOAT rankings were champions. That's probably why Glenn Rivers and Tony Smith aren't talked about as GOAT candidates, even though both were incredible ballplayers.
To that end, what I hope Markus doesn't become is Pete Maravich, who played at LSU. The guy was a 20-40 pointer a night. LSU never amounted to anything when he played there. It looks like the way the team is playing, we'll make the tournament. Maravich might have been LSU's GOAT but he never would have been at MU.
Like you, Brother Goose, I love Markus and he's an incredible talent. He represents what Marquette is all about. But to be a GOAT contender, we're going to have to go deep in the tournament this year and next.
Brother 1SE, no GOAT status does not depend on the NBA success. I tossed out DWade's success in the NBA because it carried on what he did at Marquette, particularly his last year here!
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I'm almost kind of playing devil's advocate here since I've been as vocal as anyone about the success of this team resting on our ability to go beyond "Markus first, Markus only"... but... in that vein....
Markus is a singular offensive talent.
Wade was great - but compare his Junior year to Markus' to date:
Markus
MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PTS
33.4 7.8 17.6 .445 3.6 8.2 .443 4.2 9.4 .447 6.0 6.7 .897 0.4 3.4 3.8 4.3 1.1 0.1 3.6 25.8
Wade
MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PTS
32.1 7.6 15.2 .501 7.2 13.8 .519 0.4 1.3 .318 5.9 7.5 .779 1.8 4.5 6.3 4.4 2.2 1.3 3.2 21.5
I'd say a wash. Wade's edge on boards, steals and blocks offset by Markus' on pts and eFG.
And remember, Wade was playing next to an NBA point-guard and an NBA Stretch 4. Maybe/hopefully Markus is playing next to two future NBAers too, but I'd say it's a best a toss-up between the Hauser bros and Diener/Novak. Who's around you has to matter for GOAT too.
Yes Wade's game against Kentucky was probably the best single all-time MU performance (especially given the stakes). Markus has had some big games but none yet that have mattered like that one did.
And thus my qualification all along is that this team has real NCAA success this year or next. If that happens you have to put Markus in the GOAT convo.
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dgies
No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.
This is absolutely asinine.
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https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/John-Pudner-Value-Add-Markus-Howards-53-pts-Big-East-record-127721295/
#M2N
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dgies
No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.
Also, to me being the greatest at anything includes two characteristics, #1 that person makes others around him much better, and #2 the combination of someone being great and making others around him much better should equal winning in a very, very big way.
Howard is very entertaining to watch, no doubt about it. I have had many casual fans want to talk about him with me, which is nice to see casual wins interested in MU ball again. His place in MU history is yet to be determined, but I think he has a long, long way to go to be a top guard in school history, let alone the GOAT.
Uh, what have you been smoking because I'd like to get it banned. This is just crazy talk. Dude is at worst, average on the defensive end and other worldly on the offensive end. He can create for others if needed(see X game where he had 6 assists and should have had at least 10 if Ed could hit no footers that game). Yes he can go here ball but so can any super star. He is now within realistic range of setting the all time scoring record at MU after 3 seasons and hes not in your top 10!?!??!
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Tony Smith also was capable of scoring in bunches. My recollection is that when Smith scored a ton, we typically lost. It was usually a bad sign that the rest of the team wasn't doing anything and Smith had to take over.
Tony Smith had not very good adjoining talent around him, too. That makes a difference. The Hausers allow for some spacing for Howard. Novak helped Wade as did Merritt and Jackson. Tony Smith was really a man on an island. The lefty on that team, Anglevar (?) could shoot, but was slow.
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Rumors of Markus Howard's poor defense have been greatly exaggerated.
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Rumors of Markus Howard's poor defense have been greatly exaggerated.
at this point in time, it's only a fictional feather in the cap of the old guard.
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https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/John-Pudner-Value-Add-Markus-Howards-53-pts-Big-East-record-127721295/
#M2N
How does Value Add system work if a team has many good players (support staff let us call them) vs a team that has a star and not many complimentary players?
Would Wade be higher if Merritt and Diener were not on the team? Is Tony Smith penalized because of his teammates?
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As I mentioned, Howard will be the greatest scorer in school history. Barring injury or turning pro, he will set a scoring record that will last longer than Brute Force held the record. IMO, that makes him an extremely entertaining player to watch. DWade is the greatest ever at MU, but there are 6-8 guys that were off the charts. Then you can probably add another 6-8 that were really good. In the last group I put Doc, James and Tony Smith. I do not think Howard passes James on my all time list.
Don’t get me wrong, Howard is a special player. But, MU is program that has produced some unbelievably gifted college players. To be GOAT at MU you have an awfully big mountain to climb.
For the younger folks on here, Bo Ellis was outstanding game in and game out for four seasons and he is not in my top four all time greats. I do not know of a GOAT in any sport that did not win a very high level.
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Do you think Markus can raise his draft stock by coming back next year? I think he can.
If he returns, he could be a pre-season NPOY, MU could be top 10 and he will be one of the big story lines next year. He has another year to show improve with his ball handling abilities.
agree?
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Tower
Any chance of playing in the NBA would include playing at MU next year.
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dgies
No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.
Edited for ridiculousness.
Interesting and denigrating word salad from a person who, two years ago, very publicly disowned the Marquette program and stopped supporting the players.
The nostalgia porn of you old timers is a debilitating disease.
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Tower
Any chance of playing in the NBA would include playing at MU next year.
Not so sure about that. The challenges Markus would face (size, lack of elite athleticism, defense) aren't going away with another year of dominating the Big East.
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Not so sure about that. The challenges Markus would face (size, lack of elite athleticism, defense) aren't going away with another year of dominating the Big East.
True to a degree, but as Henry showed, how good the draft classes are also matters. Ellenson entered with one of the worst classes, if he waited it would have hurt him considerably. Conversely, there have been players that have waited and improved because they improved in an area they were suspect at and the class wasn’t as good.
Personally I think he can improve his defense with another year, he already has improved in that area.
Let him declare this year, he can come back if he isn’t drafted. Win win for him and program.
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Interesting and denigrating word salad from a person who, two years ago, very publicly disowned the Marquette program and stopped supporting the players.
The nostalgia porn of you old timers is a debilitating disease.
I don't remember Goose ever disowning the program. And you can call it notalgia porn but our program was at a much different level in the 70s than it was now. IMHO, it's fair to rank the best players from teams that were ranked top 5 regularly over the best player on a team that is more of a back end of the top 25.
Don't get me wrong, Howard absolutely belongs in the conversation of MU greats, probably towards to back of the top 10. But between Wade, Crowder, Butler, Doc, and the guys from the 70s, we've produced some fantastic players.
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Interesting and denigrating word salad from a person who, two years ago, very publicly disowned the Marquette program and stopped supporting the players.
The nostalgia porn of you old timers is a debilitating disease.
Youth is wasted on the young.
The old timers may be bias in their opinions, but they have the advantage of seeing the players back then and now. The youngsters here didn’t.
I wasn’t old enough to remember the 69’s or 70’s, but 80’s ok I witnessed. There is definitely some decency bias in some of the analysis of players here.
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I don't remember Goose ever disowning the program. And you can call it notalgia porn but our program was at a much different level in the 70s than it was now. IMHO, it's fair to rank the best players from teams that were ranked top 5 regularly over the best player on a team that is more of a back end of the top 25.
Don't get me wrong, Howard absolutely belongs in the conversation of MU greats, probably towards to back of the top 10. But between Wade, Crowder, Butler, Doc, and the guys from the 70s, we've produced some fantastic players.
Just remember those guys did not have the 3pt basket or a shot clock which makes comparisons tougher because in some regards they are not playing the same game.
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Lengthy defenders bother Howard, that is what he saw today. Isn't the NBA full of those types? St. John's was a similar type of defense.
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Lengthy defenders bother Howard, that is what he saw today. Isn't the NBA full of those types? St. John's was a similar type of defense.
Davion Mintz is 6'4".
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The NBA is nothing but long guards. Kid is going to need a growth spurt.
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Just remember those guys did not have the 3pt basket or a shot clock which makes comparisons tougher because in some regards they are not playing the same game.
This is a very good point to bring up. Markus has scored hundreds of points that players from before the mid-80s couldn't score.
That's nothing against Markus. He is taking advantage of the rules that exist. But it's still a fact.
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The NBA is nothing but long guards. Kid is going to need a growth spurt.
...or elevators shoes!
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This is a very good point to bring up. Markus has scored hundreds of points that players from before the mid-80s couldn't score.
That's nothing against Markus. He is taking advantage of the rules that exist. But it's still a fact.
And the shot clock limits how much an opponent can suppress the score by taking the air out of the ball. Absent a foul or offensive rebound, you get the ball back at least every 30 seconds.
This doesn't take anything away from Markus, it's just that the rules have changed the game a lot over the years.
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Markus will not have to deal with many double teams in the NBA. Not sure length bothers him unless there are multiple defenders and he won't be the focal point of the opponent's gameplan
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And the shot clock limits how much an opponent can suppress the score by taking the air out of the ball. Absent a foul or offensive rebound, you get the ball back at least every 30 seconds.
This doesn't take anything away from Markus, it's just that the rules have changed the game a lot over the years.
Just watch our '77 NC game. Dean Smith and his infamous 4 corners offense back fired on him in that game.
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...or elevators shoes!
Nice idea, but don't they get measured in their bare feet at the combine?
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And the shot clock limits how much an opponent can suppress the score by taking the air out of the ball. Absent a foul or offensive rebound, you get the ball back at least every 30 seconds.
This doesn't take anything away from Markus, it's just that the rules have changed the game a lot over the years.
Yep. WarriorDad/cubbiechicos would claim this is further proof that Millennials have it easy.
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The answer is still yes, he will return for his senior year.
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Golden
Feel free to say or think whatever you want about me. That said, try and add something to your posts that are value added on the topic at hand. What is your thoughts on Howard, Howard as MU GOAT or is he back next season? I posted my thoughts on the topic being discussed and shared my thoughts. Try and add something to the mix, rather than being an a$$hole.
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MU82
I believe Howard would be the greatest scorer regardless of rules of days past or current rules. The kid can flat out do things that others have never done. As I mentioned earlier, he will set a record that will stand for decades, barring injury or leaving early. They could change things and have four point line and he will stand alone for a long time.
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https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/01/17/2019-nba-mock-draft-2-0-zion-williamson-remains-no-1-duke-goes-1-2-3/
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Stupid post.
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https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/01/17/2019-nba-mock-draft-2-0-zion-williamson-remains-no-1-duke-goes-1-2-3/
First rounder? Doubtful. But if that’s the info Markus gets after the season he should absolutely declare.
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Agreed, if Markus has a shot at even early second round after this year he should go. That being said, for the love of god please do not let that happen.
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https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/01/17/2019-nba-mock-draft-2-0-zion-williamson-remains-no-1-duke-goes-1-2-3/
OK, I don't follow the NBA draft much, but Dauster's list has zero Euros in the top 30.
Is that accurate? If so, when was the last time that happened?
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QUENTIN GRIMES, Kansas: I’m still in on the potential of Grimes in the longterm, but I’m starting to think he’s more of a two or three year college player than one-and-done. What does he do at an NBA level right now? He shoots 30.3 percent from three, he has fewer assists than he does turnovers and he hasn’t been anything special defensively.
Interesting.
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Everywon missed on dis 5 star. Guess ya reely kant exstrapilate ontwo da next level, hey?
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https://hoopshype.com/2018/12/17/zion-williamson-mock-draft-college-basketball-rumors-updates/
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Don't think I saw this posted here yet
https://www.nbadraft.net/2019mock_draft
Markus #39
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Have not read all the comments but as someone who has seen "little" shooters (remember Jimmer) who struggle with NBA pace, height, length and physicality I could see him going and taking the chance or staying for all four years...
Wish the best for him, he's fun to watch play and next year could be even better with more confident players around him helping spread the floor
Go Markus! 8-)
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Markus is staying...article in other thread convinced me.
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Don't think I saw this posted here yet
https://www.nbadraft.net/2019mock_draft
Markus #39
I reached out to Jonathan Givony this morning for an update. He has worked with me in the past for Cracked Sidewalks MU players that could be drafted. His Draft Express was purchased by ESPN, so he is technically an ESPN employee now, which may preclude him from doing interviews with us as he has done in the past.
Mike Schmitz was in Milwaukee yesterday for the game and I believe works for Jon. Will write something up on CS if anything newsworthy comes of it.
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nice long article SI online today-
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25770461/why-5-foot-11-markus-howard-nation-most-dangerous-scorer
still hard to say(for me) if MH is going to stay one more year, or try to cash in.
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nice long article SI online today-
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25770461/why-5-foot-11-markus-howard-nation-most-dangerous-scorer
still hard to say(for me) if MH is going to stay one more year, or try to cash in.
Repetition is the key to adult learning.
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Repetition is the key to adult learning.
very profound-if you're referring to the fact that i posted the article above after it has already been posted somewhere else, big whoop. here it is again. i guess i needed the "click bait"
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Repetition is the key to adult learning
Is a running gag from last week. Lighten up, Francis.
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Spoke to Jon Givony at ESPN / Draft Express. He said they have MH mid 80's for their top 100 players, and mid second round pick....in 2020. Will be updated on Wednesday in their mock.
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Spoke to Jon Givony at ESPN / Draft Express. He said they have MH mid 80's for their top 100 players, and mid second round pick....in 2020. Will be updated on Wednesday in their mock.
So you put a stake in the ground, then breathlessly report what a person in the industry said (when it happens to agree with you) as fact, which also as an added bonus "proves" you "know" someone in the industry?
#softbubbleredux
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So you put a stake in the ground, then breathlessly report what a person in the industry said (when it happens to agree with you) as fact, which also as an added bonus "proves" you "know" someone in the industry?
#softbubbleredux
What?
I would report either way what Jonathon said. He's been kind enough going back a number of years to help out with additional information on MU potential draft picks. Whether I agree with him or not, I have never waivered and providing his insights. He is considered an expert in this area, which is why ESPN partnered with him and his firm, DraftExpress. He isn't perfect by any stretch, but enough that this is his day job.
I have published a number of our interactions on MU players with his permission over the last 10 years. A more in depth Marquette angle than we would normally get. Feel free to enjoy them or not, doesn't bother me. Enough people enjoyed them and I was happy to bring the news to MU fans.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/03/nba-futures-for-3-amigos-interview-with.html 2009 Three Amigos
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2013/04/crackedsidewalks-interview-with.html 2013 Vander Blue
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2016/05/henry-ellensons-draft-stock-interview.html 2016 Henry Ellenson
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OK, I'll start by noting that I don't have all the history of all the renditions of Chicos/Cheeks on scoop. Now, I'm going to say that I have not seen anything objectionable about what Cheeks has been posting over the past weeks. It adds to the conversation, can be informative and is often interesting. I do not understand why, whenever he posts something that appears benign or even useful, somebody jumps down his throat about being self serving or argumentative or something. Y'all gave Ners/Floorslapper a waaaaay longer leash than Chicos is getting. I get that there's a history, but the responses seem unnaturally harsh when it doesn't appear that we are into the issues that caused prior bannings.
It's 2019 and we're #11/12 in the polls, folks. Let's smile and wait for the (inevitable?) regression to the mean before jumping so hard on a poster reincarnation.
Oh, and yes, I fully expect Markus to be back for his senior year. He won't be anywhere close to a first round sniff this year.
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OK, I'll start by noting that I don't have all the history of all the renditions of Chicos/Cheeks on scoop. Now, I'm going to say that I have not seen anything objectionable about what Cheeks has been posting over the past weeks. It adds to the conversation, can be informative and is often interesting. I do not understand why, whenever he posts something that appears benign or even useful, somebody jumps down his throat about being self serving or argumentative or something. Y'all gave Ners/Floorslapper a waaaaay longer leash than Chicos is getting. I get that there's a history, but the responses seem unnaturally harsh when it doesn't appear that we are into the issues that caused prior bannings.
It's 2019 and we're #11/12 in the polls, folks. Let's smile and wait for the (inevitable?) regression to the mean before jumping so hard on a poster reincarnation.
+1. It gets tiresome.
There are some good healthy debates on Scoop. There are others who just like to sh@t on some others.
Bold part is where we should try to be.
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Don't think I saw this posted here yet
https://www.nbadraft.net/2019mock_draft
Markus #39
Duke with #1, 3, and 6.
Kansas with an injured guy at #47.
Odds are neither will win it all, but I like my side better.
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OK, I'll start by noting that I don't have all the history of all the renditions of Chicos/Cheeks on scoop. Now, I'm going to say that I have not seen anything objectionable about what Cheeks has been posting over the past weeks. It adds to the conversation, can be informative and is often interesting. I do not understand why, whenever he posts something that appears benign or even useful, somebody jumps down his throat about being self serving or argumentative or something. Y'all gave Ners/Floorslapper a waaaaay longer leash than Chicos is getting. I get that there's a history, but the responses seem unnaturally harsh when it doesn't appear that we are into the issues that caused prior bannings.
It's 2019 and we're #11/12 in the polls, folks. Let's smile and wait for the (inevitable?) regression to the mean before jumping so hard on a poster reincarnation.
Oh, and yes, I fully expect Markus to be back for his senior year. He won't be anywhere close to a first round sniff this year.
I agree with Mom, and I have followed the Chico's saga much longer than she has. I don't agree with everything Chico's says, and I agree that he often doesn't know when to quit in an argument, but he could literally say, "The sky is blue" and someone on here would accuse him of being a pompous know-it-all.
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Repetition is the key to adult learning
Is a running gag from last week. Lighten up, Francis.
sorry-wasn't in on/see the original gag nor the initial posting of this article. must have been "a roll on the floor" doozy, however i'll try to pay more attention in the future. i loves me a good one every now and then as much as the chick, et.al.
love, fran
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OK, I'll start by noting that I don't have all the history of all the renditions of Chicos/Cheeks on scoop. Now, I'm going to say that I have not seen anything objectionable about what Cheeks has been posting over the past weeks. It adds to the conversation, can be informative and is often interesting. I do not understand why, whenever he posts something that appears benign or even useful, somebody jumps down his throat about being self serving or argumentative or something. Y'all gave Ners/Floorslapper a waaaaay longer leash than Chicos is getting. I get that there's a history, but the responses seem unnaturally harsh when it doesn't appear that we are into the issues that caused prior bannings.
It's 2019 and we're #11/12 in the polls, folks. Let's smile and wait for the (inevitable?) regression to the mean before jumping so hard on a poster reincarnation.
Oh, and yes, I fully expect Markus to be back for his senior year. He won't be anywhere close to a first round sniff this year.
i just became your #1 fan, mom!! nicely done!!
you couldn't have stated that any better! cheeks offers a unique point of view thru his interactions and experiences with many people we could only have wished to have crossed paths with. many here seem to think they have to lift their leg and leave their scent on everything he says just to be heard. o.k. he's back, get over it. he has been nothing but respectful, in agreement or otherwise. show the same a little. ya'll feel so much better.
free the man!
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I agree with Mom, and I have followed the Chico's saga much longer than she has. I don't agree with everything Chico's says, and I agree that he often doesn't know when to quit in an argument, but he could literally say, "The sky is blue" and someone on here would accuse him of being a pompous know-it-all.
I think part of it is Chico's brings out the worst in people. There have been times where I've put him on ignore, not because of anything he is really saying, but because he brings out the worst in me.
I know I have a hard time letting things go sometimes too, and he knows how to push all the right buttons, and does.
I always take him back off ignore though, as I do enjoy some of his nuggets.
Even with all of it, I'd gladly invite him over for beers and to watch the game.
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Even message boards are better with a heel. Chicos, Ners, and Heisenberg are like the Farooq, Rock, and Dlo Brown of MUScoop.
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OK, I'll start by noting that I don't have all the history of all the renditions of Chicos/Cheeks on scoop. Now, I'm going to say that I have not seen anything objectionable about what Cheeks has been posting over the past weeks. It adds to the conversation, can be informative and is often interesting. I do not understand why, whenever he posts something that appears benign or even useful, somebody jumps down his throat about being self serving or argumentative or something. Y'all gave Ners/Floorslapper a waaaaay longer leash than Chicos is getting. I get that there's a history, but the responses seem unnaturally harsh when it doesn't appear that we are into the issues that caused prior bannings.
It's 2019 and we're #11/12 in the polls, folks. Let's smile and wait for the (inevitable?) regression to the mean before jumping so hard on a poster reincarnation.
Oh, and yes, I fully expect Markus to be back for his senior year. He won't be anywhere close to a first round sniff this year.
Thank you
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+1. It gets tiresome.
There are some good healthy debates on Scoop. There are others who just like to sh@t on some others.
Bold part is where we should try to be.
Thank you, too
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I agree with Mom, and I have followed the Chico's saga much longer than she has. I don't agree with everything Chico's says, and I agree that he often doesn't know when to quit in an argument, but he could literally say, "The sky is blue" and someone on here would accuse him of being a pompous know-it-all.
Guilty as charged at times, but thank you.
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I agree with Mom, and I have followed the Chico's saga much longer than she has. I don't agree with everything Chico's says, and I agree that he often doesn't know when to quit in an argument, but he could literally say, "The sky is blue" and someone on here would accuse him of being a pompous know-it-all.
The sky is gray
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Chico's makes Scoop a better place. Plus, he is a big boy and can handle himself in almost every discussion.
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I agree with Mom, and I have followed the Chico's saga much longer than she has. I don't agree with everything Chico's says, and I agree that he often doesn't know when to quit in an argument, but he could literally say, "The sky is blue" and someone on here would accuse him of being a pompous know-it-all.
That’s because the sky was yellow and the sun was blue
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And Chico's name dropped who was responsible for the color of the sky and went to great lengths to explain over and over why the color of the sky made him morally superior.
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Don't think I saw this posted here yet
https://www.nbadraft.net/2019mock_draft
Markus #39
This is a big development. I pay attention to the direction the player is moving more than the actual ranking. It took Markus a while to make it to the end of the 2020 mock and now he has jumped up to 39 on 2019.
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This is a big development. I pay attention to the direction the player is moving more than the actual ranking. It took Markus a while to make it to the end of the 2020 mock and now he has jumped up to 39 on 2019.
That’s not a credible site. DraftExpress was the best and now they’re in the espn world.
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That’s not a credible site. DraftExpress was the best and now they’re in the espn world.
They seem to be reasonably accurate on many of the players I have been following. I followed that sight and Draft Express Henrys year and they were very similar.
The accuracy improves the closer to the draft.
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ESPN has Markus getting picked @ # 41 in the 2020 Draft.. 8-)
http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/25826785/2020-nba-mock-draft-new-no-1-pick-scouting-lamelo-ball
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FWIW, The Athletic has Markus going 44th in its latest mock draft.
I still think he comes back.
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He's staying.
He just said he wouldn't trade this for anything in the world. Done deal.
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I may need to go the home finale so I can cheer ONE MORE YEAR.. ONE MORE YEAR.
And also attend the six tourney games.
#M2N
(who woulda thought? lol)
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He's staying.
He just said he wouldn't trade the for anything in the world. Done deal.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/laUY2MuoktHPy/200w.webp?cid=3640f6095c5253d371336367634c2ca1)
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(https://media0.giphy.com/media/laUY2MuoktHPy/200w.webp?cid=3640f6095c5253d371336367634c2ca1)
Nice post
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(https://media0.giphy.com/media/laUY2MuoktHPy/200w.webp?cid=3640f6095c5253d371336367634c2ca1)
Dis iz a mouthful, hey?
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ESPN has Markus getting picked @ # 41 in the 2020 Draft.. 8-)
http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/25826785/2020-nba-mock-draft-new-no-1-pick-scouting-lamelo-ball
Correct. I spoke to Jonathan Givony the other day. We’ve had a bit of a relationship going back 10 years. He will provide more info later which i’ll Put up on Crackedsidewalks
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Stupid post. Markus will finish as a four year player record breaker.
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Potential national championship team as well, gotta be considered