MUScoop

Best of luck to Newbill!

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20100719_Strawberry_Mansion_s_Newbill__Davis_headed_for_Southern_Miss.html

Another golden eagle......god I hate that nickname.

Glad he was able to find a spot.

Guess he really did not need to go to Prep School!

Quote from: willie warrior on July 19, 2010, 08:32:07 AM
Guess he really did not need to go to Prep School!

I don't think anyone ever said he needed to go to prep school, at least not for academic reasons.

Quote from: Stone Cold on July 19, 2010, 08:13:25 AM
Another golden eagle...

+1.  First McMorrow, now Newbill.  Maybe the Golden Eagle name/mascot really does lure players for reasons we can't understand!

At any rate, best wishes to Newbill.  Hope he has a great career at Southern Miss.

Interesting comments in the article.

"He received roughly 20 offers when his recruitment reopened."

"Local schools that pursued, Drexel, LaSalle (wanted him to red-shirt), and Temple had inquired"....interesting.

Either way, best of luck to DJ.

It'll be interesting to see if his former coach pops up on the SoMiss message boards.

Best of luck to DJ - hope he has a great career at Southern Miss.  I'm sure he is still very disappointed to not make it in to Marquette - considering the other offers he got came from mid-major type of programs.  However, this could be best for him in the long run, as he will likely have a much better chance of getting alot of playing time, than coming to MU and likely being the 10-13th guy on the team.

Best of luck to DJ. This sounds like a great opportunity where there will certainly be more playing time than we had to offer.

Though some of the comments from Coach Laws are curious. DJ didn't want to be in a big city, yet a month ago Marquette was his dream destination. And offers from 20 schools? It seems like being released from MU has actually helped him, as it seems there's more interest now than there was when we first were looking at him.

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 19, 2010, 09:49:55 AM
Best of luck to DJ. This sounds like a great opportunity where there will certainly be more playing time than we had to offer.

Though some of the comments from Coach Laws are curious. DJ didn't want to be in a big city, yet a month ago Marquette was his dream destination. And offers from 20 schools? It seems like being released from MU has actually helped him, as it seems there's more interest now than there was when we first were looking at him.

If you are from Philly, Milwaukee is probably not a big city.  He probably meant NY, Philly, DC were big cities that DJ wanted to avoid for some reason. 

The scholarship, of course, will stand until Brett Favre expresses his desire to try his hand at starting guard for his alma mater.

Anyone know for sure if he's submitted his application to USM yet?

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 19, 2010, 09:49:55 AM
Though some of the comments from Coach Laws are curious. DJ didn't want to be in a big city, yet a month ago Marquette was his dream destination. And offers from 20 schools? It seems like being released from MU has actually helped him, as it seems there's more interest now than there was when we first were looking at him.

I wish DJ nothing but the best but...

Does anyone else get a strange feeling about Coach Laws? Maybe I'm alone on that but, based on his quotes and his role in the MU fiasco, he strikes me as someone who tells the truth as he wants to see it as opposed to the actual truth. Receiving 20 offers sounds like an awful lot and his comment that DJ didn't want to play in a big city anyway doesn't appear to ring true given that DJ referred to MU as his dream program. Maybe I'm reading too much into it and I actually hope I'm wrong, but he just doesn't strike me as the type of guy I'd trust as an adviser.

Wonder if Brad will be moving down South.

You guys are mis-reading the quote. He said:

"He never wanted to be in the city anyway..."

I am pretty sure he is referring to Philadelphia...as he said similar things about "the city" when he committed to Marquette.  He wanted to get out of Philadelphia then, and still does now.

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 19, 2010, 09:49:55 AM
It seems like being released from MU has actually helped him, as it seems there's more interest now than there was when we first were looking at him.

I don't know if I would go there....20 offers from where?  When you have an offer in hand from WVU and Marquette, but at the end of the day have to settle for Southern Miss because those are the only scraps left with offers....

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 12:58:02 PM
I don't know if I would go there....20 offers from where?  When you have an offer in hand from WVU and Marquette, but at the end of the day have to settle for Southern Miss because those are the only scraps left with offers....

And what exactly does "20 offers" mean?  Legit scholarship offers or just interest?  And let's face it....Southern Miss is a second rate basketball program in a second rate conference.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 19, 2010, 01:00:38 PM
And what exactly does "20 offers" mean?  Legit scholarship offers or just interest?  And let's face it....Southern Miss is a second rate basketball program in a second rate conference.

Correct....and in the middle of July, that's pretty much the scraps that are left.  That's why the kid feels "hurt by Marquette", to quote the article, in more ways than one.

In the middle of July, there is nothing left.  He's screwed for this year.  He either accepts a scholarship at a place like Southern Miss, or he waits an entire year (goes JUCO or Prep School) for the process to start all over again. 

Please no one reply back to Chicos post and maybe the post will die. Else expect 20 more posts from Chicos.

Did Brad break this news?



Good luck to DJ as I thought he would be a good addition to this team (though we're deep in guards).

And NO, he's not screwed for a year. He has a FREE RIDE as long as he keeps his academics up. If that's "screwed for a year", then something's wrong with ya! ;)

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 19, 2010, 02:06:08 PM
Did Brad break this news?



Good luck to DJ as I thought he would be a good addition to this team (though we're deep in guards).

And NO, he's not screwed for a year. He has a FREE RIDE as long as he keeps his academics up. If that's "screwed for a year", then something's wrong with ya! ;)

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that interpretation.  All Free Rides are not equal, unless you are saying a free ride at Southern Mississippi and the education that goes along with it is the same as that at Marquette.  If that's the same, then something's wrong with ya.   ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 02:11:44 PM
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that interpretation.  All Free Rides are not equal, unless you are saying a free ride at Southern Mississippi and the education that goes along with it is the same as that at Marquette.  If that's the same, then something's wrong with ya.   ;)

we'll agree to disagree. :)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 02:11:44 PM
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that interpretation.  All Free Rides are not equal, unless you are saying a free ride at Southern Mississippi and the education that goes along with it is the same as that at Marquette.  If that's the same, then something's wrong with ya.   ;)

I'd take a free ride over paying $37,000 a year to go to MU, that's for sure.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2010, 11:58:29 AM
I wish DJ nothing but the best but...

Does anyone else get a strange feeling about Coach Laws? Maybe I'm alone on that but, based on his quotes and his role in the MU fiasco, he strikes me as someone who tells the truth as he wants to see it as opposed to the actual truth. Receiving 20 offers sounds like an awful lot and his comment that DJ didn't want to play in a big city anyway doesn't appear to ring true given that DJ referred to MU as his dream program. Maybe I'm reading too much into it and I actually hope I'm wrong, but he just doesn't strike me as the type of guy I'd trust as an adviser.

I agree.

Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2010, 02:22:00 PM
I'd take a free ride over paying $37,000 a year to go to MU, that's for sure.

I'd take a free ride at MU that I was promised over the free ride at USM that I had to settle for.

Maybe he should have done Prep school to bring up his stock?

I was against it, but man, look at the Jamil Wilson video at the latest Pro-Am.   :o

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 03:16:44 PM
I'd take a free ride at MU that I was promised over the free ride at USM that I had to settle for.

Nothing in life is free.  MU didn't fulfill its end of the "promise" but DJ wasn't exactly on top of his obligations either.

Benny's Life Secret #14:  If you accept a scholarship, job, or some other type of offer, live up to your end of the deal.  And don't be the person that accepts an offer and then shops it around (not even Michael Scott would do that).  Otherwise, don't act surprised when you're called out.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 03:16:44 PM
I'd take a free ride at MU that I was promised over the free ride at USM that I had to settle for.

Seeing the guards we have, he would have to be very good to see any playing time here. He may not like what happen, but he probably will see a lot more playing time at USM.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2010, 11:58:29 AM
Does anyone else get a strange feeling about Coach Laws?

I have been skeptical of his versions of things from the very moment he arrived.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 03:16:44 PM
I'd take a free ride at MU that I was promised over the free ride at USM that I had to settle for.

So would I, but to say he "is screwed" is simply wrong.  Did he get screwed by Marquette?  Maybe, but I think we all know that there are 2 sides to this story and we have only heard one side.  My guess is that the truth is somewhere between the side we heard and the side we imagine.  But my point is that he is going to a division 1 school and getting a free education.  I don't see how he "is screwed" when he is getting a free education from a Conference USA school.  He's not at some community college now getting an education that doesn't count for much.  He is certainly not screwed.  His life is not over because he had to "settle" for a free ride to a solid 4 year college.

This may be a wrong thing to say but:  If Newbill was a high major talent, a high major program would have made room for him - much the way MU "made room" for Wilson.  The reality is that Newbill was likely at the bottom of getting offers from high major programs back in the winter time..with MU and WVU being the only 2 majors mentioned..so it follows that no high major team would make room for him now.

Like most, I hope things work out well for DJ and also hope Buzz doesn't get involved in another situation like this one regardless of what "understanding" there may have been between MU and the Newbill camp.

But as another mentioned..Jamil Wilson looks ridiculous in the videos posted..and could be a player that pushes MU toward a Final Four/National Championship..so probably worth it in the long run with regard to the program's well-being.

Quote from: Ners on July 19, 2010, 04:36:27 PM
This may be a wrong thing to say but:  If Newbill was a high major talent, a high major program would have made room for him - much the way MU "made room" for Wilson.  The reality is that Newbill was likely at the bottom of getting offers from high major programs back in the winter time..with MU and WVU being the only 2 majors mentioned..so it follows that no high major team would make room for him now.

Like most, I hope things work out well for DJ and also hope Buzz doesn't get involved in another situation like this one regardless of what "understanding" there may have been between MU and the Newbill camp.

But as another mentioned..Jamil Wilson looks ridiculous in the videos posted..and could be a player that pushes MU toward a Final Four/National Championship..so probably worth it in the long run with regard to the program's well-being.

You have pretty much summed up how I feel...

1.  No great loss
2.  Hope this situation doesn't occur again
3.  I'm really glad we have Jamil

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 19, 2010, 04:39:16 PM

You have pretty much summed up how I feel...

1.  No great loss
2.  Hope this situation doesn't occur again
3.  I'm really glad we have Jamil

I would venture to say that this sums up the feelings of all but a very few here.

Quote from: muarmy81 on July 19, 2010, 09:10:02 AM
Interesting comments in the article.

"He received roughly 20 offers when his recruitment reopened."

"Local schools that pursued, Drexel, LaSalle (wanted him to red-shirt), and Temple had inquired"....interesting.

Either way, best of luck to DJ.

Interesting that DJ had only a "conditional" offer from LaSalle - even with a scholarship  open they think he needs a year to play at their level (which is considerably below MU's level).

Best of luck to DJ. My guess is he's in a better place to showcase his game.

I am happy he received another D1 offer at this late date.   Too much of MU's version of the tale will forever remain unknown, so it is difficult to make a final analysis, but I sincerely hope this does not become the norm.   

Wait, Jamil is going to get us to the Final Four?  I KNEW the ends justified the means!

(http://www.ashrae4greenville.com/bio_pics/DilbertDance.jpg)

Good for DJ, I said he was a big boy that he would land on his feet.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 19, 2010, 05:31:41 PM
Wait, Jamil is going to get us to the Final Four?  I KNEW the ends justified the means!

Now I didn't say that.

I simply said that I'm glad we have him.  I didn't like how we got him, and I don't think we should go through that again, but I am glad we have him.

Quote from: bilsu on July 19, 2010, 04:03:05 PM
Seeing the guards we have, he would have to be very good to see any playing time here. He may not like what happen, but he probably will see a lot more playing time at USM.

Do not disagree at all with that....my point was simply the two are not apples to apples.

Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2010, 04:06:30 PM
So would I, but to say he "is screwed" is simply wrong.  Did he get screwed by Marquette?  Maybe, but I think we all know that there are 2 sides to this story and we have only heard one side.  My guess is that the truth is somewhere between the side we heard and the side we imagine.  But my point is that he is going to a division 1 school and getting a free education.  I don't see how he "is screwed" when he is getting a free education from a Conference USA school.  He's not at some community college now getting an education that doesn't count for much.  He is certainly not screwed.  His life is not over because he had to "settle" for a free ride to a solid 4 year college.

Let's call it, then, the feeling of being "screwed" if that helps people digest it. 

If your son or daughter was offered a scholarship, they accepted and signed a NLI for that offer and then later it was pulled and your child was forced to go to a lower level academic and athletic institution, would your child (and you) feel "screwed"? 

Answer honestly.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 06:13:31 PM
Let's call it, then, the feeling of being "screwed" if that helps people digest it. 

If your son or daughter was offered a scholarship, they accepted and signed a NLI for that offer and then later it was pulled and your child was forced to go to a lower level academic and athletic institution, would your child (and you) feel "screwed"? 

Answer honestly.

Nope - I'd be grateful he could likely stay eligible.   ;D

We on the board will always owe a debt to Newbill.  Just think how much of the discussion during this off season concerned him.  Boy, would we have been dragging without threads about him.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2010, 06:13:31 PM
Let's call it, then, the feeling of being "screwed" if that helps people digest it. 

If your son or daughter was offered a scholarship, they accepted and signed a NLI for that offer and then later it was pulled and your child was forced to go to a lower level academic and athletic institution, would your child (and you) feel "screwed"? 

Answer honestly.

Honestly - If Marquette is lying (as you obviously think they are) about DJ and his family knowing about the conditions/possibilities then yes. If MU is telling the truth then no.

It's clear who you believe. I think Stan Laws arrival on this board (the timing especially) and the fact that DJ hadn't even filled out an application are only a couple of the reasons I'm suspicious of the Newbill camp. So I guess I disagree with you.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 19, 2010, 06:47:09 PM
Honestly - If Marquette is lying (as you obviously think they are) about DJ and his family knowing about the conditions/possibilities then yes. If MU is telling the truth then no.

It's clear who you believe. I think Stan Laws arrival on this board (the timing especially) and the fact that DJ hadn't even filled out an application are only a couple of the reasons I'm suspicious of the Newbill camp. So I guess I disagree with you.

I completely agree with this and would answer in the same way.  Even if Marquette was lying and phillycoach was absolutely correct on the story (which as I said, it'd be hard to believe that the truth doesn't lie somewhere between what he says and what IWB said happened), then yes I would feel as though Marquette screwed my son over, but I still be very proud and extremely thrilled that my son would be getting a free education at a solid school.  It may be a downgrade, but it is still a good education, and it is free.

Speaking of phillycoach, he hasn't logged in since July 9, 2010.

And bradforster? Last active July 28, but no new posts since July 6.

No Newbill, no news. I guess.

Not even on his signing with Southern Miss. Tsk tsk.

USM messageboard referring to Newbill as a "reject" (kinda harsh, no? but perception is reality, I guess...): http://www.eaglepost.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20809

Quote from: Benny B on July 19, 2010, 04:03:00 PM
Nothing in life is free.  MU didn't fulfill its end of the "promise" but DJ wasn't exactly on top of his obligations either.

Benny's Life Secret #14:  If you accept a scholarship, job, or some other type of offer, live up to your end of the deal.  And don't be the person that accepts an offer and then shops it around (not even Michael Scott would do that).  Otherwise, don't act surprised when you're called out.

Benny....very interesting angle.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 19, 2010, 04:03:48 PM
I have been skeptical of his (Coach Law's) versions of things from the very moment he arrived.

My gut tells me there is more to the story than we know and Buzz can't comment for obvious reasons.  I think in time we will know more....

Quote from: mu77vegas on July 19, 2010, 10:30:45 PM
My gut tells me there is more to the story than we know and Buzz can't comment for obvious reasons.  I think in time we will know more....

+1

Can Buzz or the staff ever talk about it?  When the school year starts and these guys are no longer recruits, can they discuss a recruitment?  I remember Buzz talked about Blue's and Jones' recruiting process a little bit already. 

When can Buzz clear the air?

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 19, 2010, 11:04:02 PM
Can Buzz or the staff ever talk about it?  When the school year starts and these guys are no longer recruits, can they discuss a recruitment?  I remember Buzz talked about Blue's and Jones' recruiting process a little bit already.  

When can Buzz clear the air?

All I know is if my sig(nature) is correct, he definitely cannot say anything since DJ hasn't started the first day of class (and probably hasn't participated in an official practice - before classes start).

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 19, 2010, 11:10:04 PM
All I know is if my sig(nature) is correct, he definitely cannot say anything since DJ hasn't started the first day of class (and probably hasn't participated in an official practice - before classes start).

So once he starts class and is officially a student at So. Miss., then Buzz can talk about it if he wants?

There is no reason for Buzz to say anything but "I'm glad DJ landed on his feet."  For 99% of the MU fanbase, this issue is dead...if they ever cared to begin with.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 19, 2010, 11:04:02 PM
Can Buzz or the staff ever talk about it?  When the school year starts and these guys are no longer recruits, can they discuss a recruitment?  I remember Buzz talked about Blue's and Jones' recruiting process a little bit already. 

When can Buzz clear the air?

What is the benefit of clearing the air?  For a couple fans curiosity?  They will just move on.  Its a past issue if an issue for them at all. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 19, 2010, 06:47:09 PM
Honestly - If Marquette is lying (as you obviously think they are) about DJ and his family knowing about the conditions/possibilities then yes. If MU is telling the truth then no.

You have a very interesting position on this.

The NLI program prohibits such side deals.

Yet you think MU is off the hook because they made one with Newbill anyway and he didn't understand it?

The truth is that this kid was screwed, and MU/Buzz was in the thick of it. Take off all your rose colored glasses!

I'm going to really root for DJ, MBAO and Liam.  I hope they all do great. 

Simply put, MU recruited over Newbill. No other way to spin it. Old timers like myself are just going to have to get used to today's recruiting tactics. In a sense, it's no different than the recruit asking for his release and "screwing" over the coach. Happens at virtually every school today and I'm certain will occur again at Marquette when the opportunity arises.

Quote from: Benny B on July 19, 2010, 04:03:00 PM
Nothing in life is free.  MU didn't fulfill its end of the "promise" but DJ wasn't exactly on top of his obligations either.

Benny's Life Secret #14:  If you accept a scholarship, job, or some other type of offer, live up to your end of the deal.  And don't be the person that accepts an offer and then shops it around (not even Michael Scott would do that).  Otherwise, don't act surprised when you're called out.

I've seen this implied a few times now by different posters, that Newbill's camp was perhaps shopping around with different schools to see if he could get a better offer after his stock started to rise.  I have no idea if it's true, but if it is, I'd be more comfortable with MU's actions.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 20, 2010, 08:31:27 AM
I've seen this implied a few times now by different posters, that Newbill's camp was perhaps shopping around with different schools to see if he could get a better offer after his stock started to rise.  I have no idea if it's true, but if it is, I'd be more comfortable with MU's actions.

It seems more likely that as he improved he no longer wanted to be a bench warmer at MU.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 19, 2010, 04:03:48 PM
I have been skeptical of his versions of things from the very moment he arrived.

I think Coach Laws was part of the problem. Very unusual to have a coach posting on our boards. I find it interesting that shortly after Newbill losses scholarship we get a warning post from MU staff about talking to recruits. I think Buzz thought Newbill was not worth the potential trouble that was coming with him. This is not a knock on Newbill, but the people who were his so called advisors. This was to soon after Maymon situation for Buzz.

Quote from: bilsu on July 20, 2010, 08:59:13 AM
It seems more likely that as he improved he no longer wanted to be a bench warmer at MU.

I agree and I wouldn't blame him.  By better offer, I didn't necessarily mean he was on the phone with Kansas or UNC.

Quote from: bilsu on July 20, 2010, 09:10:00 AM
I find it interesting that shortly after Newbill losses scholarship we get a warning post from MU staff about talking to recruits.

When?  Where?  I don't remember that.  Do you have a link?

From Danielle Josetti, associate athletic director for compliance...

QuoteFans, please remember that you are considered a booster by NCAA standards if you are an alum, season ticket holder, donor, among other things.  If any of our boosters contact our recruits, that recruit will be ineligible to come to Marquette.  Please do not ever contact any of our recruits or their parents.  This means do not contact them in person, by e-mail, Facebook, Twitter, conduct interviews, etc.  You need to leave the recruiting to the coaches we have hired.  You can certainly feel free to contact our staff if you have information about a recruit that you think we should have.  We appreciate your support and your enthusiasm, but we need to make sure that you aren't doing something that violates NCAA rules.  For more information on NCAA rules, please refer to our website at http://www.gomarquette.com/compliance/ncaa-rules-guide.html or contact me at danielle.josetti@marquette.edu.

Thanks and Go Marquette!

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20985.0

Quote from: bma725 on July 20, 2010, 09:27:23 AM
From Danielle Josetti, associate athletic director for compliance...

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20985.0

So if Brad is in fact a MU grad, his interview with DJ Newbill in essence caused DJ to be ineligible at MU?  If true then Brad and DJ can only blame each other.

Thanks bma

Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2010, 08:29:55 AM
Simply put, MU recruited over Newbill. No other way to spin it. Old timers like myself are just going to have to get used to today's recruiting tactics. In a sense, it's no different than the recruit asking for his release and "screwing" over the coach. Happens at virtually every school today and I'm certain will occur again at Marquette when the opportunity arises.

If MU knows that they are losing a player (leaving school, transferring, not eligible, etc.) but no public announcement is made until Buzz & Co has found the replacement, is that considered "recruiting over" the other guy?

The reason I ask is that some people have concluded that nobody (including Newbill's camp) saw DJ's release coming until the Jamil announcement was made, and therefore make the assumption that Jamil's transfer caused DJ's release (i.e. Jamil was "recruited over" DJ).

But who's to say that the writing hasn't been on the wall for both sides to see for a couple months now?  Someone please explain why it is not plausible that DJ's release caused Jamil's transfer instead.

Better yet, explain what MU should do to avoid the negative stigma attached to "recruiting over" someone who is already known (albeit not publicly) to be leaving the team?

Quote from: Benny B on July 20, 2010, 10:34:01 AM
If MU knows that they are losing a player (leaving school, transferring, not eligible, etc.) but no public announcement is made until Buzz & Co has found the replacement, is that considered "recruiting over" the other guy?

The reason I ask is that some people have concluded that nobody (including Newbill's camp) saw DJ's release coming until the Jamil announcement was made, and therefore make the assumption that Jamil's transfer caused DJ's release (i.e. Jamil was "recruited over" DJ).

But who's to say that the writing hasn't been on the wall for both sides to see for a couple months now?  Someone please explain why it is not plausible that DJ's release caused Jamil's transfer instead.

Better yet, explain what MU should do to avoid the negative stigma attached to "recruiting over" someone who is already known (albeit not publicly) to be leaving the team?

Everyone has to guess unless Buzz comes out and tells the story.  You can connect any dots you want: 
-DJ didn't do his application,
-an alum (I think Forster is?) made a documentary about him while he was still a recruit which breaks a rule apparently,
-things didn't happen until a top recruit from WI wanted to come making the timing suspicious,
-DJ was never on the ProAm roster,
-Buzz said one recruit may go to prep school,
-DJ's side apparently said he was never going to prep school
-Rumors that MU told DJ he may have to go to prep school since MU had other needs besides guard, and DJ knew this risk going in

You can take these facts and a few others and re-arrange and spin them however you want.  Everyone is just guessing, though.  I don't know if Buzz would gain much by clearing it up because it would likely involve saying something negative about Newbill, but it is the only thing that could fully clear the air. 

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13430/d-j-newbill-lands-on-his-feet


"Oh no, not oversigning.com! ESPN.com"

Quote from: Benny B on July 20, 2010, 10:34:01 AM
If MU knows that they are losing a player (leaving school, transferring, not eligible, etc.) but no public announcement is made until Buzz & Co has found the replacement, is that considered "recruiting over" the other guy?

The reason I ask is that some people have concluded that nobody (including Newbill's camp) saw DJ's release coming until the Jamil announcement was made, and therefore make the assumption that Jamil's transfer caused DJ's release (i.e. Jamil was "recruited over" DJ).

But who's to say that the writing hasn't been on the wall for both sides to see for a couple months now?  Someone please explain why it is not plausible that DJ's release caused Jamil's transfer instead.

Better yet, explain what MU should do to avoid the negative stigma attached to "recruiting over" someone who is already known (albeit not publicly) to be leaving the team?

Is this that Easter Bunny and Santa Claus thing all over again?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 10:59:35 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13430/d-j-newbill-lands-on-his-feet


"Oh no, not oversigning.com! ESPN.com"

Oh no! And it's on one of their obscure, back-page blogs too! This is the end of MU basketball as we know it!

I mean this as a serious question, Chicos: What are you hoping to accomplish by constantly harping on this one story?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 10:59:35 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13430/d-j-newbill-lands-on-his-feet


"Oh no, not oversigning.com! ESPN.com"

Chicos, would you have posted the link if it had even hinted that there were 2 sides to the story?

Quote from: ESPN
"For the crime of being not quite as talented as Wilson, Newbill's offer was soon rescinded."

Do we REALLY know that was the reason? C'mon....

MU haters think so, but since Buzz and the now-legally-silenced DJ have not stated the real reasons, it's all conjecture.

Quote from: mu-rara on July 20, 2010, 12:06:50 PM
Chicos, would you have posted the link if it had even hinted that there were 2 sides to the story?

I posted the link because a few weeks ago people were taking shots that it was only small blogs that had the story, as if that mattered (there is stuff that smaller blogs or papers run all the time on the gov't, etc, that the "big boys" don't bother or CHOOSE not to).

Now that it's been picked up by ESPN, I thought it should be posted only to answer those that claimed only smaller outlets were reporting it.

Simple as that, which is exactly why I posted the direct quote below it from one of the posters claiming it was "only on oversigning.com".  No, it's not anymore.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 20, 2010, 11:21:29 AM
Oh no! And it's on one of their obscure, back-page blogs too! This is the end of MU basketball as we know it!

"It might've been somewhere towards the back..."
(http://www.freewebs.com/jimmyjaz2/147840-reverend-lovejoy_400.jpg)

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 20, 2010, 11:21:29 AM
Oh no! And it's on one of their obscure, back-page blogs too! This is the end of MU basketball as we know it!

I mean this as a serious question, Chicos: What are you hoping to accomplish by constantly harping on this one story?

By posting a story about MU basketball on ESPN today, this is constantly harping on the story?  Wow.  It's on the front page of the ESPN College basketball page, by the way.  It's not like it took any effort to find it, right there for people to find.

Sorry MM, if I don't drink the Koolaid 24/7

I don't know why people just can't accept the reality of what happened.

MU offered a NLI to a kid that was probably a slight reach.  Kid accepted.  Another former MU recruit and Wisconsin state player wanted to transfer (and if you think that happened in April, you're smoking), so MU dumps kid for better prospect.

This is not hard.  If Jamil Wilson doesn't want to transfer is Newbill on the team?  Yes

Treat people properly, that shouldn't be too much to ask.  I'm sorry if you don't like that the largest Sports new company on planet earth is reporting it and someone had the audacity to post it on...wait for it...on a Marquette site when the article is about a Marquette player.  Oh the humanity.

Chicos, why do you ignore the timing of the post by Marquette's AD about contacting recruits?

When has that EVER happened on MUScoop?

I'm pretty sure they monitor these boards. So when they post - if they EVER post - it probably has to be pretty serious. So if Brad's contact constitutes a violation, do you think lowly of MU to back the heck away from DJ?

Heck, it may be an excuse but it surely wasn't on MU's part since they did not do the interviews.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2010, 11:20:54 AM

Is this that Easter Bunny and Santa Claus thing all over again?

Quite the opposite, indeed.  We all know the story behind the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.  Nobody believes the illusion.  With DJ Newbill, all we have is the illusion.  Nobody knows the story behind it.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 10:59:35 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/13430/d-j-newbill-lands-on-his-feet

"Oh no, not oversigning.com! ESPN.com"

Which brings me to point 2.  If this is such a travesty of justice, then why has the story remained relegated to blogs and the back-page of a couple local newspapers? [Note - E. Brennan is not ESPN, and vice versa.  He happens to be a freelance guy who fills space on their website.  Claiming that anything on his blog constitutes ESPN "picking up on the story" is ridiculous.]

It seems to me that the media would love to expose a major university - Catholic one at that - who in a matter of a few weeks, has reneged on two high-profile "invitations" it made.  I've said it before -- stories & situations like this are cocaine to investigative journalists.  But alas, 60 Minutes, OTL, Hard Copy and Geraldo are nowhere to be found in Milwaukee.  Evidently, our sensationalistic, anti-religion, stand-up-for-the-little guy, media has decided there is no story here.

Even Rosiak hasn't chimed in on the matter except to reprint the public statements.  The Newbill camp wouldn't even call him back.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 12:36:22 PM

I don't know why people just can't accept the reality of what happened.

Because no one - you included, Chicos - knows the reality of what happened.  If you have concrete evidence to suggest otherwise, please come forward.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 20, 2010, 12:39:40 PM
Chicos, why do you ignore the timing of the post by Marquette's AD about contacting recruits?

When has that EVER happened on MUScoop?

I'm pretty sure they monitor these boards. So when they post - if they EVER post - it probably has to be pretty serious. So if Brad's contact constitutes a violation, do you think lowly of MU to back the heck away from DJ?

Heck, it may be an excuse but it surely wasn't on MU's part since they did not do the interviews.

BINGO.

Please address this, because I've been on these boards since the very first Rivals incarnation, and I've never seen that.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 12:36:22 PM
Treat people properly, that shouldn't be too much to ask.  I'm sorry if you don't like that the largest Sports new company on planet earth is reporting it and someone had the audacity to post it on...wait for it...on a Marquette site when the article is about a Marquette player.  Oh the humanity.

I agree with you Chicos, but having a backpage blogger posting about it isn't the same as having the "largest Sports new (sic) company on planet earth reporting it."

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 20, 2010, 12:39:40 PM
Chicos, why do you ignore the timing of the post by Marquette's AD about contacting recruits?

When has that EVER happened on MUScoop?

I'm pretty sure they monitor these boards. So when they post - if they EVER post - it probably has to be pretty serious. So if Brad's contact constitutes a violation, do you think lowly of MU to back the heck away from DJ?

Heck, it may be an excuse but it surely wasn't on MU's part since they did not do the interviews.

If it was a violation, then wouldn't it still be a violation regardless of whether MU "backed away" or not?  Do schools really get to claim no violation occurred if they simply cut ties with the athlete?

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 20, 2010, 12:39:40 PM
Chicos, why do you ignore the timing of the post by Marquette's AD about contacting recruits?

Didn't the AD post have more to do with what was happening on UStream?  I think it was posted a day or two after the UStream video went up.  The UStream post was deleted immediately after by a mod.

Quote from: TJ on July 20, 2010, 12:49:44 PM
If it was a violation, then wouldn't it still be a violation regardless of whether MU "backed away" or not?  Do schools really get to claim no violation occurred if they simply cut ties with the athlete?

The rule says that if this type of improper contact takes place, the player is ineligible to attend that particular school.  So technically, it's not a violation unless he comes here.

Quote from: Eford4President2012 on July 20, 2010, 12:53:39 PM
Didn't the AD post have more to do with what was happening on UStream?  I think it was posted a day or two after the UStream video went up.  The UStream post was deleted immediately after by a mod.

There were work-out/highlight videos of Newbill posted much earlier (maybe in May?) by this same person.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 20, 2010, 12:56:33 PM
The rule says that if this type of improper contact takes place, the player is ineligible to attend that particular school.  So technically, it's not a violation unless he comes here.

Therefore, DJ being ruled ineligible from the improper contact strikes all of Chicos arguments.

And by honoring the scholarship, MU jeopardizes their program with a possible violation.

If you're correct...

(I am unaware of any UStream video.  What was it?)

Bradforster had posted an interview with Newbill 6 WEEKS prior to MU requesting DJ ask for his release.    There's zero chance MU missed that video.

If you want to draw the conclusion that Newbill was somehow tainted by violations, ergo, MU posted a warning here, that's super .. except you have to explain why MU did NOT do so 6 weeks when the initial video was posted.

The MU athletic department's posting on MUScoop was their effort at due diligence, for what was discussed (here) as a minor violation, since it happens about 18 million times a year and the schools have very little control over their fans (and fans of rivals, who'd like to get them in trouble.)

Ahhh, yes. Thank you Oh Great Wizard of MUScoop.

(http://nathan-stevens.com/research/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/toto-exposes-oz.jpg)

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 20, 2010, 01:04:33 PM
(I am unaware of any UStream video.  What was it?)

Bradforster had posted an interview with Newbill 6 WEEKS prior to MU requesting DJ ask for his release.    There's zero chance MU missed that video.

If you want to draw the conclusion that Newbill was somehow tainted by violations, ergo, MU posted a warning here, that's super .. except you have to explain why MU did NOT do so 6 weeks when the initial video was posted.

The MU athletic department's posting on MUScoop was their effort at due diligence, for what was discussed (here) as a minor violation, since it happens about 18 million times a year and the schools have very little control over their fans (and fans of rivals, who'd like to get them in trouble.)

Maybe MU didn't realize the person that did the video/interview satisfied the definition of a booster?  Maybe they thought it was done by a regular member of the media?  I don't think MU and Newbill parted was just because the videos, but it certainly didn't help the situation.  Maybe it was a culmination of things?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 12:36:22 PM
By posting a story about MU basketball on ESPN today, this is constantly harping on the story?  Wow.  It's on the front page of the ESPN College basketball page, by the way.  It's not like it took any effort to find it, right there for people to find.

Sorry MM, if I don't drink the Koolaid 24/7

I don't know why people just can't accept the reality of what happened.

MU offered a NLI to a kid that was probably a slight reach.  Kid accepted.  Another former MU recruit and Wisconsin state player wanted to transfer (and if you think that happened in April, you're smoking), so MU dumps kid for better prospect.

This is not hard.  If Jamil Wilson doesn't want to transfer is Newbill on the team?  Yes

Treat people properly, that shouldn't be too much to ask.  I'm sorry if you don't like that the largest Sports new company on planet earth is reporting it and someone had the audacity to post it on...wait for it...on a Marquette site when the article is about a Marquette player.  Oh the humanity.

Yep, I believe you're constantly harping on this topic because of just one innocent, little post  ::)

Do you have anything besides circumstantial evidence that proves that Newbill is only gone because Wilson wanted to come to MU? Or how about anything that proves "the reality of what happened?"

You also didn't answer my question so I'll try phrasing it differently.

Given that most other posters seem to disagree with you or are indifferent to the Newbill saga or have moved on from this story, what do you hope to accomplish by continuously re-stating your opinion on this topic?

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 20, 2010, 01:04:33 PM
(I am unaware of any UStream video.  What was it?)

I sent you a PM.  The original thread appears to have been deleted.

I would think MU cannot really control us or any other booster. However, they cannot have a blind eye to it. Ignoring it would in my mind fall under a lack of institutional control. MU must show that they try to prevent outside things from happening, which is different than actually preventing them. I think in most cases of probation you see the lack of institutional control charge.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 20, 2010, 01:33:13 PM
Yep, I believe you're constantly harping on this topic because of just one innocent, little post  ::)

Do you have anything besides circumstantial evidence that proves that Newbill is only gone because Wilson wanted to come to MU? Or how about anything that proves "the reality of what happened?"

You also didn't answer my question so I'll try phrasing it differently.

Given that most other posters seem to disagree with you or are indifferent to the Newbill saga or have moved on from this story, what do you hope to accomplish by continuously re-stating your opinion on this topic?

Little ironic you are berating Chicos for obsessing about something that most of us had moved on from, seeing that you are equally if not more obsessed about trying to prove him wrong.  Here is a tip, you can let it go too chief...just don't respond.  And of course, thee is always the ignore button.

Quote from: reinko on July 20, 2010, 01:40:03 PM
Little ironic you are berating Chicos for obsessing about something that most of us had moved on from, seeing that you are equally if not more obsessed about trying to prove him wrong.  Here is a tip, you can let it go too chief...just don't respond.  And of course, thee is always the ignore button.

What can I say? I minored in psychology and I find Chicos' posts and thought-processes to be fascinating at times.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 20, 2010, 01:55:23 PM
What can I say? I minored in psychology and I find Chicos' posts and thought-processes to be fascinating at times.

Trolling... FOR SCIENCE!

Quote from: Litehouse on July 20, 2010, 01:29:36 PM
Maybe MU didn't realize the person that did the video/interview satisfied the definition of a booster?  Maybe they thought it was done by a regular member of the media?  I don't think MU and Newbill parted was just because the videos, but it certainly didn't help the situation.  Maybe it was a culmination of things?

I'm going to go with no on all those questions.  I have faith that the folks in MU's athletic dept. are pretty sharp and, after seeing a video of one of their recruits posted on a MU board (which they monitor) that they'd use that complex tool called Google to figure out who posted it and what their credentials are, if any.

As for a 'culmination' of things, if you mean a better player came along and 'culminated' Newbill out of his scholarship, well yes.   ;)

Let me be as succinct as possible.

MU should not be accepting NLI's unless they plan on honoring them.  I hope we do a hell of a better job in the future in keeping the very simple premise as it would avoid and of this nonsense that the school has had to go through.

We can all speculate who said what, when it was said, etc, etc.  The fact of the matter is, honor your NLI or simply don't accept it for a kid you're not sure about, and this situation doesn't happen, the conjecture \ speculation doesn't happen, etc. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
Let me be as succinct as possible.

MU should not be accepting NLI's unless they plan on honoring them.  I hope we do a hell of a better job in the future in keeping the very simple premise as it would avoid and of this nonsense that the school has had to go through.

We can all speculate who said what, when it was said, etc, etc.  The fact of the matter is, honor your NLI or simply don't accept it for a kid you're not sure about, and this situation doesn't happen, the conjecture \ speculation doesn't happen, etc. 

Here we go again.  Your black and white rules don't work.  You need to add stipulations of when it's alright to back out of a NLI and when it's not.  If the kid does something illegal and gets caught?  If a kid continues to pursue other schools?  If a kid is told the scholarship might not stand?  If a kid doesn't get his paperwork in? 

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 20, 2010, 01:04:33 PM
The MU athletic department's posting on MUScoop was their effort at due diligence, for what was discussed (here) as a minor violation, since it happens about 18 million times a year and the schools have very little control over their fans (and fans of rivals, who'd like to get them in trouble.)

I've bought merchandise from another major institution for my wife who went there, so now I get their emails.  They send out a large mass email about compliance at least 2 times a year.  I'm surprised MU doesn't do that.

Quote from: avid1010 on July 20, 2010, 03:48:23 PM
Here we go again.  Your black and white rules don't work.  You need to add stipulations of when it's alright to back out of a NLI and when it's not.  If the kid does something illegal and gets caught?  If a kid continues to pursue other schools?  If a kid is told the scholarship might not stand?  If a kid doesn't get his paperwork in? 

If it wouldn't get the kid kicked out of school, it shouldnt get an LOI rescinded. That also takes care of all this recruiting irregularity nonsense.

Please let me save everyone the trouble.

Chico's:  NLI RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE HONOR RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE DJ SCREWED RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Avid, Lens, Lenny...: FULL STORY UNKNOWN RABBLE RABBLE NO APPLICATION RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

And repeat.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2010, 08:29:55 AM
Simply put, MU recruited over Newbill. No other way to spin it. Old timers like myself are just going to have to get used to today's recruiting tactics. In a sense, it's no different than the recruit asking for his release and "screwing" over the coach. Happens at virtually every school today and I'm certain will occur again at Marquette when the opportunity arises.

4ever, I'm sorry to inform you we've found and older and grouchier Old Timer to replace you on MUScoop.  We wish you the best and will work with you to find a new message board to be old and grouchy on.  I hear the Southern Miss message board may have some openings.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 20, 2010, 12:56:33 PM
The rule says that if this type of improper contact takes place, the player is ineligible to attend that particular school.  So technically, it's not a violation unless he comes here.

I would like to say that sounds awfully incorrect to me.  Either a violation has occurred or it hasn't.  I find it very hard to believe there's a technicality letting a school/coach/institution off the hook for improper recruiting when the kid chooses another school.

If he comes here, it's a violation and he can't come here.  If he doesn't come there's no violation, so now he can come.  But if he can come, then there's a violation and he can't come...  We've got ourselves a classic catch-22 going on right there.

Also, to those that have been saying all along that there isn't enough evidence to support any claims of impropriety against the school - how is there any evidence whatsoever to back up the idea that he was let go because of ineligibility due to minor recruiting violations?  Why aren't more people jumping on this and calling it out as unsubstantiated?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
Let me be as succinct as possible.

MU should not be accepting NLI's unless they plan on honoring them.    

Chicos... you should have stopped right there.  I would have given you a hug and bought you a beer, maybe two.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
I hope we do a hell of a better job in the future in keeping the very simple premise as it would avoid and of this nonsense that the school has had to go through.

Again - and I hate sounding like a broken record - what's to say that DJ Newbill didn't ask for his release first?  The possibility exists that Buzz did nothing wrong here, and it's not an unreasonable scenario.  Maybe DJ was the one who wanted to void the NLI a few weeks ago.  Maybe Buzz tried to work things out and get him to stay.  Maybe Buzz was 100% committed to DJ but kept the window open with Jamil just in case.  Who knows?  Buzz certainly can't tell his side of the story, and even if he could, he's not going to throw the kid under the bus just to appease the minority of people who are questioning his motives.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
We can all speculate who said what, when it was said, etc, etc.  The fact of the matter is, honor your NLI or simply don't accept it for a kid you're not sure about, and this situation doesn't happen, the conjecture \ speculation doesn't happen, etc.  

And that's what I'm doing - I'm speculating the opposite position in order to demonstrate that it isn't as cut and dry as you and others are making it out to be.  I understand that it might come across like I'm defending Buzz, but I am absolutely not advocating that Buzz isn't at fault here.

All I am saying is that Buzz may be anywhere from 0%-100% at fault.  As a Catholic, as an MU alum, as a season ticket holder, I think that regardless of what I believe to be the truth but as long as I do not know for certain, that disclaimer needs to be made; otherwise, I am doing a disservice to Buzz Williams even if he did breach a moral standard.  But that's just my opinion... you're welcome to disagree with that.  But you can't disagree with the 0%-100% unless you have something you're withholding.

EDIT: By "something," I mean something indisputable, tangible, a smoking gun, etc.  Not an opinion.

Quote from: reinko on July 20, 2010, 03:55:42 PM
Please let me save everyone the trouble.

Chico's:  NLI RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE HONOR RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE DJ SCREWED RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Avid, Lens, Lenny...: FULL STORY UNKNOWN RABBLE RABBLE NO APPLICATION RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

And repeat.

Funny and dead on. In my defense I've twice taken Chicos up on his request to "honestly" answer a question and get no real response in return.

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 20, 2010, 03:55:08 PM
If it wouldn't get the kid kicked out of school, it shouldnt get an LOI rescinded. That also takes care of all this recruiting irregularity nonsense.

Really?  So a kid could refuse to come to summer workouts, smoke dope, call Buzz and request money be given to his people, have his dad show up at MU functions/practices and insist his son be the number one option, multiple underage drinking tickets, maybe some drunken driving, etc. but we should still honor the NLI?

Quote from: TJ on July 20, 2010, 04:22:20 PM
I would like to say that sounds awfully incorrect to me. Either a violation has occurred or it hasn't.  I find it very hard to believe there's a technicality letting a school/coach/institution off the hook for improper recruiting when the kid chooses another school.

If he comes here, it's a violation and he can't come here.  If he doesn't come there's no violation, so now he can come.  But if he can come, then there's a violation and he can't come...  We've got ourselves a classic catch-22 going on right there.

Also, to those that have been saying all along that there isn't enough evidence to support any claims of impropriety against the school - how is there any evidence whatsoever to back up the idea that he was let go because of ineligibility due to minor recruiting violations? Why aren't more people jumping on this and calling it out as unsubstantiated?

It is only a violation for MU if they play an ineligible player. For example there was that guard that came in with the Big three that redshirted. He supposedly bet on MU NCAA tournament game, which made him ineligible. Crean took away his scholarship as required. No violation for MU, because they did not play an ineligible player. Compare that to Memphis and possibility Kentucky who played players that were ineligible based on the assumption they cheated on their ACT tests.

I will be so happy when the season starts and we can focus on actual Marquette basketball :)

Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2010, 11:20:54 AM

Is this that Easter Bunny and Santa Claus thing all over again?

God damn it, 4everwarriors --- I don't give a F what you say, The Easter Bunny and Santa Claus ARE related!

Quote from: TJ on July 20, 2010, 04:22:20 PM
If he comes here, it's a violation and he can't come here.  If he doesn't come there's no violation, so now he can come.  But if he can come, then there's a violation and he can't come...  We've got ourselves a classic catch-22 going on right there.

Had to strike sentences out because it doesn't make any sense at all.

Other than that, there's really NO Catch-22: "violation" occurs -> release the player from LOI -> no penalty.

Now, there are some events around his release which are the center of speculation... ;)

Quote from: avid1010 on July 20, 2010, 03:48:23 PM
Here we go again.  Your black and white rules don't work.  You need to add stipulations of when it's alright to back out of a NLI and when it's not.  If the kid does something illegal and gets caught?  If a kid continues to pursue other schools?  If a kid is told the scholarship might not stand?  If a kid doesn't get his paperwork in? 

Actually, his black and white rules work perfectly. A booster had documented contact with a recruit, making that recruit ineligible to come to Marquette. Newbill was unable to attend Marquette. Marquette then had an open scholarship. They chose to use it on the transfer Wilson.
Those are all facts. Everything else is pure conjecture.

Quote from: pbiflyer on July 21, 2010, 12:35:05 AM
Actually, his black and white rules work perfectly. A booster had documented contact with a recruit, making that recruit ineligible to come to Marquette. Newbill was unable to attend Marquette. Marquette then had an open scholarship. They chose to use it on the transfer Wilson.
Those are all facts. Everything else is pure conjecture.

You love to throw the conjecture word around...but you are the one making assumptions that the reason that Newbill isn't here is because of some sort of violation versus the basketball abilities of him and Wilson.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 21, 2010, 05:54:46 AM
You love to throw the conjecture word around...but you are the one making assumptions that the reason that Newbill isn't here is because of some sort of violation versus the basketball abilities of him and Wilson.

So...you think the AD for compliance showing up on this board and reminding people not to have contact with recruits, make and post videos, etc. has nothing to do with the reason why DJ isn't at Marquette?  Is that just a smoke screen created by the athletic dept. to mess with our minds? 

I don't know the real reason he's here and neither do you.  But based on what we know, the violation is real, right? 

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 21, 2010, 06:46:02 AM
So...you think the AD for compliance showing up on this board and reminding people not to have contact with recruits, make and post videos, etc. has nothing to do with the reason why DJ isn't at Marquette?  Is that just a smoke screen created by the athletic dept. to mess with our minds?  

If that were actually the case, don't you think they would have shown up a few months earlier when the initial interview appeared on the site?

Quote
But based on what we know, the violation is real, right?  

Based on what we know, there isn't enough information to determine that one way or another and people are jumping off the deep end screaming violation.  

Quote from: pbiflyer on July 21, 2010, 12:35:05 AM
Actually, his black and white rules work perfectly. A booster had documented contact with a recruit, making that recruit ineligible to come to Marquette. Newbill was unable to attend Marquette. Marquette then had an open scholarship. They chose to use it on the transfer Wilson.
Those are all facts. Everything else is pure conjecture.

That's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  If every recruit who ever had contact with a booster was not allowed to come on campus I don't believe any serious D1 team would have a team to put on the court next year.  That rule is not black and white, and for good reason.

Quote from: bma725 on July 21, 2010, 07:11:07 AM
If that were actually the case, don't you think they would have shown up a few months earlier when the initial interview appeared on the site?

Based on what we know, there isn't enough information to determine that one way or another and people are jumping off the deep end screaming violation.  

+1

Quote from: bma725 on July 21, 2010, 07:11:07 AM
Based on what we know, there isn't enough information to determine that one way or another and people are jumping off the deep end screaming violation.  

True... but there's just as many people diving into the shallow end screaming "buzzcut."

Perhaps we should all be taking the steps into the pool instead.

Quote from: Benny B on July 21, 2010, 08:24:37 AM
True... but there's just as many people diving into the shallow end screaming "buzzcut."

Perhaps we should all be taking the steps into the pool instead.

True, but people that were screaming "not enough information!" before, but are now willing to latch on to "violations!" based on just as circumstantial evidence are showing that they weren't really interested in "waiting for the whole story to come out" all along.

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1201/1408163640_670eacaa1c.jpg)

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 21, 2010, 06:46:02 AM
So...you think the AD for compliance showing up on this board and reminding people not to have contact with recruits, make and post videos, etc. has nothing to do with the reason why DJ isn't at Marquette?  Is that just a smoke screen created by the athletic dept. to mess with our minds?  

I don't know the real reason he's here and neither do you.  But based on what we know, the violation is real, right?  

Answer:

Quote from: bma725 on July 21, 2010, 07:11:07 AM
If that were actually the case, don't you think they would have shown up a few months earlier when the initial interview appeared on the site?

Based on what we know, there isn't enough information to determine that one way or another and people are jumping off the deep end screaming violation.  

and:

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21078.msg225202#msg225202

Sorry.  The idea that any sort of violation somehow factors in to the Newbill situation is not based in reason.  On top of what BMA said (who is the most connected person in the room) .. if it were true, Marquette would have leaked it to IWB, and it would have been in his explanation of Newbill's story.

Hell, had a violation occurred that had anything to do with Newbill being gone, Marquette would have OFFICIALLY rolled out that story, instead of allowing IWB to tell it -- which would have squashed all of the negative conjecture.   Instead of MU being thought of as a program that over-signs, it would have been a story of how Marquette follows the rules.

Quote from: reinko on July 21, 2010, 08:34:48 AM
...head banging on wall pic...

Pssh...

(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x126/oddiedoddie/SmashingHeadOnKeyboard.gif)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
Let me be as succinct as possible.

MU should not be accepting NLI's unless they plan on honoring them.  I hope we do a hell of a better job in the future in keeping the very simple premise as it would avoid and of this nonsense that the school has had to go through.

We can all speculate who said what, when it was said, etc, etc.  The fact of the matter is, honor your NLI or simply don't accept it for a kid you're not sure about, and this situation doesn't happen, the conjecture \ speculation doesn't happen, etc. 

If MU's greatest coach in the last 30 years, which is the phrase you always use, can do it (Saunders).  Why cant Buzz, whom you hope can be as successful as Cream.   Seems it is acceptable as long as you are getting the pleasure of a reach around.  Yet unacceptable for a guy you did not think should be hired.  ::)

After doing extensive research and sifting through all these posts, I've finally figured out the definitive truth! Stay with me on this one...

No matter what we think happened or how we feel about the situation or who we think was at fault, Jamil Wilson is going to be a student-athlete at Marquette and DJ Newbill is going to be a student-athlete at Southern Miss.


Be honest. That just blew your mind, didn't it?

Quote from: TJ on July 21, 2010, 08:32:47 AM
True, but people that were screaming "not enough information!" before, but are now willing to latch on to "violations!" based on just as circumstantial evidence are showing that they weren't really interested in "waiting for the whole story to come out" all along.

The whole story may never come out... at least not anytime in the foreseeable future.  Everyone has their own opinions of what happened, and that's fine.  But nobody should be holding themselves out as knowing the truth when in fact, they don't.

Speculation is fine, as long as you make it clear that you're speculating.

Quote from: TJ on July 21, 2010, 08:32:47 AM
True, but people that were screaming "not enough information!" before, but are now willing to latch on to "violations!" based on just as circumstantial evidence are showing that they weren't really interested in "waiting for the whole story to come out" all along.

What BS.  Read my post.  I clearly said I don't know what happened and neither does anybody else on this board.  And we're never going to get the entire story. 

BUT, if someone wants to argue that it's all about Wilson being a better player, there is enough "info" out there to argue that it could just as well be about breaking some stupid no-contact rule. 

The whole point is nobody knows...and I'm NOT saying it's one or the other because, unlike some other people on this board, I realize I don't have all the info to draw any sort of conclusion and I'm not suffiiciently ego-maniacal to think that I do. 

Thanks

Everyone seems to be assuming that the message from MU regarding recruiting rules was made because of the videotape of Newbill that has been floating around

Does anybody know for sure that the Newbill video was the impetus?

Could it be aimed at MU fans who may have heard that Jamil Wilson was unhappy at Oregon and attempted to encourage him to transfer?

Could it be aimed at MU fans in Indiana who may have been trying to reach Branden Dawson to influence his choice?

Could it be aimed at fans who might be temped to post messages that appear to be aimed at specific recruits telling them that their chances of making the NBA are much better at MU?

Could it be aimed at those attending any of the summer camp sessions who want to provide first hand scoop including conversations they had with 2011 recruits.

The bottom line is that there has been a rush to judgment that the MU message was aimed at bradforster because of the Newbill video--but there are a myriad of other potential concerns all happening at the same time.

To repeat, Newbill was, defacto, recruited over. You don't have to agree with it or like it, but that's what happened. No stuff. Let's put all the other bs scenarios to bed.

Quote from: TJ on July 20, 2010, 03:49:31 PM
I've bought merchandise from another major institution for my wife who went there, so now I get their emails.  They send out a large mass email about compliance at least 2 times a year.  I'm surprised MU doesn't do that.

They do send notice to all season ticket holders.

Quote from: mu-rara on July 21, 2010, 09:29:01 AM
They do send notice to all season ticket holders.

Good to know.  I've never gotten one as a 5-pack ticket buyer that I remember, so that's why I didn't know about it.

From my wife's school I get them simply because I bought her a t-shirt online.

Quote from: Canadian Dimes on July 21, 2010, 08:56:04 AM

If MU's greatest coach in the last 30 years, which is the phrase you always use, can do it (Saunders).  Why cant Buzz, whom you hope can be as successful as Cream.   Seems it is acceptable as long as you are getting the pleasure of a reach around.  Yet unacceptable for a guy you did not think should be hired.  ::)

Classic double standard. Your guy's (TC) actions are overlooked or defended. The guy you don't like (Buzz) similar actions cause outrage. Hard to take it seriously under those circumstances.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 21, 2010, 09:10:38 AM
What BS.  Read my post.  I clearly said I don't know what happened and neither does anybody else on this board.  And we're never going to get the entire story. 

BUT, if someone wants to argue that it's all about Wilson being a better player, there is enough "info" out there to argue that it could just as well be about breaking some stupid no-contact rule. 

The whole point is nobody knows...and I'm NOT saying it's one or the other because, unlike some other people on this board, I realize I don't have all the info to draw any sort of conclusion and I'm not suffiiciently ego-maniacal to think that I do. 

Thanks

I wasn't really directing my post at you.  I just find it a little odd that the major argument against people saying MU did something "wrong" was that we don't have enough info, but now people are promoting this new "ineligible due to violations" argument and until recently no one was calling them out for jumping to conclusions without enough info.

Quote from: avid1010 on July 20, 2010, 05:28:01 PM
Really?  So a kid could refuse to come to summer workouts, smoke dope, call Buzz and request money be given to his people, have his dad show up at MU functions/practices and insist his son be the number one option, multiple underage drinking tickets, maybe some drunken driving, etc. but we should still honor the NLI?

Those are all things that normally get kids kicked off teams, and de facto out of school.  But for instance, if you wouldn't kick a sophomore off the team for multiple underage drinking tickets or smoking dope then no, i don't believe that you should throw his LOI in the trash for it either.  The point I was trying to make wasn't that LOIs are ironclad, but once they are signed that kid should be a member of the team with all the leeway or lack thereof of any other player.

Quote from: TJ on July 21, 2010, 09:44:37 AM
I wasn't really directing my post at you.  I just find it a little odd that the major argument against people saying MU did something "wrong" was that we don't have enough info, but now people are promoting this new "ineligible due to violations" argument and until recently no one was calling them out for jumping to conclusions without enough info.

I know, and I could have pulled multiple quotes from multiple posters saying essentially the same thing as you...I'm just too lazy/otherwise occupied to do that. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 09:40:30 AM
Classic double standard. Your guy's (TC) actions are overlooked or defended. The guy you don't like (Buzz) similar actions cause outrage. Hard to take it seriously under those circumstances.

No double standard.  Crean shouldn't have done it and neither should Buzz.

That argument by Robby in Indiana is a joke, it's a little kids argument.  "But but but, Billy did it so I should be able to do it".  I'd expect nothing less from Robby \ Canadian Dimes. 

Marquette University SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTING NATIONAL LETTERS OF INTENT unless we plan on honoring them.  I don't care who the coach is.  PERIOD!  Do what is right.  If MU didn't accept his NLI, this doesn't happen.  If MU honored his NLI, this doesn't happen.  MU chose, instead, to take his NLI and then not honor it, and that's why the media, other schools, and yes....many MU alums....are pissed and taking shots at MU.

Marquette has only themselves to blame.  HONOR YOUR COMMITMENTS or don't make them. 

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 21, 2010, 09:17:39 AM
Everyone seems to be assuming that the message from MU regarding recruiting rules was made because of the videotape of Newbill that has been floating around

Does anybody know for sure that the Newbill video was the impetus?

Could it be aimed at MU fans who may have heard that Jamil Wilson was unhappy at Oregon and attempted to encourage him to transfer?

Could it be aimed at MU fans in Indiana who may have been trying to reach Branden Dawson to influence his choice?

Could it be aimed at fans who might be temped to post messages that appear to be aimed at specific recruits telling them that their chances of making the NBA are much better at MU?

Could it be aimed at those attending any of the summer camp sessions who want to provide first hand scoop including conversations they had with 2011 recruits.

The bottom line is that there has been a rush to judgment that the MU message was aimed at bradforster because of the Newbill video--but there are a myriad of other potential concerns all happening at the same time.

They can all be a problem. I would never think of talking to a recruit or following him on twitter/facebook, etc. Recruiting should be left 100% to coaches.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:39:49 AM
No double standard.  Crean shouldn't have done it and neither should Buzz.

That argument by Robby in Indiana is a joke, it's a little kids argument.  "But but but, Billy did it so I should be able to do it".  I'd expect nothing less from Robby \ Canadian Dimes. 

Marquette University SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTING NATIONAL LETTERS OF INTENT unless we plan on honoring them.  I don't care who the coach is.  PERIOD!  Do what is right.  If MU didn't accept his NLI, this doesn't happen.  If MU honored his NLI, this doesn't happen.  MU chose, instead, to take his NLI and then not honor it, and that's why the media, other schools, and yes....many MU alums....are pissed and taking shots at MU.

Marquette has only themselves to blame.  HONOR YOUR COMMITMENTS or don't make them. 

I see the representatives of both political parties ripping into the other side whenever there's any suggested impropriety. When it's pointed out that "their guy" did the same thing six months ago they are the first to say "That was wrong too". But when "their guy" was in the cross hairs they defended him.

If you can show me some evidence of your moral outrage towards TC DURING the Saunders incident I'll gladly cede you the moral high ground here. But if defense and acquiescence in one case has turned into shock and disappointment in another it just looks like a political operative reciting talking points.

When it was decided to end the Saunders recruiting,(a mistake, given his play for Duquesne) who did MU recruit "over" him?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 21, 2010, 06:46:02 AM
So...you think the AD for compliance showing up on this board and reminding people not to have contact with recruits, make and post videos, etc. has nothing to do with the reason why DJ isn't at Marquette?  Is that just a smoke screen created by the athletic dept. to mess with our minds? 

I don't know the real reason he's here and neither do you.  But based on what we know, the violation is real, right? 

I think they showed up here after the NLI was yanked and we wanted Bradforster to interview him.  As bma said, if it really were an issue, they would have showed up here months ago.

I further think that people *want* to believe the "violation issue" to make themselves feel better about what the truth really is....we recruited over a guy.

Quote from: ATWizJr on July 21, 2010, 12:16:16 PM
When it was decided to end the Saunders recruiting,(a mistake, given his play for Duquesne) who did MU recruit "over" him?

Saunders wasn't technically "recruited over" by any particular player.  We were over signed with the rumor being Crean thought DJ was going pro after that year, which obviously didn't happen.  We were short one spot and Saunders got the short straw.  Whether it was the academic reasons we were given, his legal issues, or a last-in/first-out policy, who knows.  Either way, the decision wasn't based on basketball ability, because we kept Hazel and let Saunders go.

Quote from: ATWizJr on July 21, 2010, 12:16:16 PM
When it was decided to end the Saunders recruiting,(a mistake, given his play for Duquesne) who did MU recruit "over" him?

IIRC (a big if) .. the issue with scholarships that year was Dom James and whether he was going to be back.  Once it was apparent he wouldn't be drafted, MU needed to vote someone off the island.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 21, 2010, 12:38:21 PM

I further think that people *want* to believe the "violation issue" to make themselves feel better about what the truth really is....we recruited over a guy.

DING DING DING!

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 21, 2010, 12:38:21 PM

I further think that people *want* to believe the "violation issue" to make themselves feel better about what the truth really is....we recruited over a guy.

Well, believe it or not, I for one don't feel all that bad about it so that's not my motivation at all.  Good theory though.

I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 21, 2010, 12:39:00 PM
Saunders wasn't technically "recruited over" by any particular player.  We were over signed with the rumor being Crean thought DJ was going pro after that year, which obviously didn't happen.  We were short one spot and Saunders got the short straw.  Whether it was the academic reasons we were given, his legal issues, or a last-in/first-out policy, who knows.  Either way, the decision wasn't based on basketball ability, because we kept Hazel and let Saunders go.

Clears that up...thanks.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 21, 2010, 12:59:25 PM
I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

exactly

At least Newbill knew in late June (maybe some time beforehand).  Saunders didn't know until right before school started.  James withdrew from the draft a while before it took place in late June.  TC could have cleared up that whole scenario long before he did.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 21, 2010, 12:59:25 PM
I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

+10000

Winning cures everything.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 21, 2010, 01:25:45 PM
+10000

Winning cures everything.

We can only hope for a Southern Miss/Marquette match up in the NCAA title game in 2012, with MU winning, but DJ scoring 78 points with 35 boards, and 15 blocks.  Him then getting taken first the NBA Draft, sign a huge contract, bang a bunch of super models, find love with a special someone, have a bunch of kids, and not go bankrupt by the age of 41.   

Quote from: reinko on July 21, 2010, 01:31:33 PM
We can only hope for a Southern Miss/Marquette match up in the NCAA title game in 2012, with MU winning, but DJ scoring 78 points with 35 boards, and 15 blocks.  Him then getting taken first the NBA Draft, sign a huge contract, bang a bunch of super models, find love with a special someone, have a bunch of kids, and not go bankrupt by the age of 41.   

Let's get real Reinko...  Find Love???

Quote from: MU B2002 on July 21, 2010, 01:39:08 PM

Let's get real Reinko...  Find Love???

Maybe he can buy love?  It ended up workin' out for Ronald Miller.

(http://www.impawards.com/1987/posters/cant_buy_me_love.jpg)

Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2010, 04:17:53 PM
4ever, I'm sorry to inform you we've found and older and grouchier Old Timer to replace you on MUScoop.  We wish you the best and will work with you to find a new message board to be old and grouchy on.  I hear the Southern Miss message board may have some openings.

And exactly why do you think that you and 4everwarriors are on a first name basis?

Quote from: Litehouse on July 21, 2010, 12:39:00 PM
Saunders wasn't technically "recruited over" by any particular player.  We were over signed with the rumor being Crean thought DJ was going pro after that year, which obviously didn't happen.  We were short one spot and Saunders got the short straw.  Whether it was the academic reasons we were given, his legal issues, or a last-in/first-out policy, who knows.  Either way, the decision wasn't based on basketball ability, because we kept Hazel and let Saunders go.

[/b]

And THAT was a HUGE mistake.

Quote from: ATWizJr on July 21, 2010, 12:16:16 PM
When it was decided to end the Saunders recruiting,(a mistake, given his play for Duquesne) who did MU recruit "over" him?

It was decided in August (just before school started). Technically I guess we recruited D James over him as Saunders was slated to take DJ's slot if/when he went pro.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 21, 2010, 12:38:21 PM

I further think that people *want* to believe the "violation issue" to make themselves feel better about what the truth really is....we recruited over a guy.

If "recruited over" means replacing one student-athlete with another, regardless of the reason the replaced is leaving the program, then you're absolutely right... Buzz "recruited over" DJ Newbill, just like he "recruited over" Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams two years ago.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 21, 2010, 12:59:25 PM
I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

While I realize this was an attempt to be funny - the reality is that Jamil Wilson is a big-time talent, and big time talent has a lot to do with teams making Final Fours.  The addition of Wilson increases the likelihood MU can make a Final Four, and also increases the liklihood MU sends another player to the NBA -both of which increase the chances of MU being able to continue to recruit well, if not better than it has already  under Buzz, which increases our chances of becoming a special program again - much like we were under Al in the 1970s.  Lots of extrapolation, yes - but in the long run, this move will probably help to pay many of the dividends mentioned above.  DJ wound up just fine, and hopefully as Buzz continues to raise the profile of the program - MU will become a destination program, to where we don't have to take fliers on players..longshot prospects...and be put in this position again.

Crean was never able to recruit over his players, though he tried. Whomever he brought was inferior to the said player who was Creaned.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 21, 2010, 12:39:00 PM
Saunders wasn't technically "recruited over" by any particular player.  We were over signed with the rumor being Crean thought DJ was going pro after that year, which obviously didn't happen.  We were short one spot and Saunders got the short straw.  Whether it was the academic reasons we were given, his legal issues, or a last-in/first-out policy, who knows.  Either way, the decision wasn't based on basketball ability, because we kept Hazel and let Saunders go.

While the decision wasn't made on basketball ability it was certainly a basketball decision. Hazel was from St Benedicts (coached by Bob Hurley's kid) No way Crean was going to burn that bridge while it was still being built.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 02:40:31 PM
While the decision wasn't made on basketball ability it was certainly a basketball decision. Hazel was from St Benedicts (coached by Bob Hurley's kid) No way Crean was going to burn that bridge while it was still being built.

Hazel was from Blair Academy, not St. Benedicts.  Burke and Cubi were the St. Benedict's recruits.  Further, if the school was the issue, given that Saunders was a Notre Dame Prep kid, and ND puts out far more talent, he would have been the one that stuck around, not Hazel.

Quote from: bma725 on July 21, 2010, 02:45:21 PM
Hazel was from Blair Academy, not St. Benedicts.  Burke and Cubi were the St. Benedict's recruits.  Further, if the school was the issue, given that Saunders was a Notre Dame Prep kid, and ND puts out far more talent, he would have been the one that stuck around, not Hazel.

Exactly

Quote from: bma725 on July 21, 2010, 02:45:21 PM
Hazel was from Blair Academy, not St. Benedicts.  Burke and Cubi were the St. Benedict's recruits.  Further, if the school was the issue, given that Saunders was a Notre Dame Prep kid, and ND puts out far more talent, he would have been the one that stuck around, not Hazel.

I stand corrected. Thanks for setting the record (and my faulty recollection) straight.

Quote from: Benny B on July 21, 2010, 02:03:31 PM
If "recruited over" means replacing one student-athlete with another, regardless of the reason the replaced is leaving the program, then you're absolutely right... Buzz "recruited over" DJ Newbill, just like he "recruited over" Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams two years ago.

No "recruiting over" implies that MU made the decision to take someone else over another.  Taylor and Williams made the decisions to ask out of their NLIs.

This thread has become ridiculous.  Just a lot of self-proclaimed "experts" making specualtive guesses at the "truth".  Time to go golfing or play some tennis, boys and girls.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 21, 2010, 12:59:25 PM
I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

Should have used teal .. the sarcasm clearly flew over the "ends justify the means" group.

Quote from: Nukem2 on July 21, 2010, 05:00:48 PM
This thread has become ridiculous.  Just a lot of self-proclaimed "experts" making specualtive guesses at the "truth".  Time to go golfing or play some tennis, boys and girls.

The problem is some of those folks who don't wish to play tennis, are speculating on national platforms like ESPN.  Speculation comes as a result of actions like those Marquette took.  That's the risk.  Don't want the speculation or the accusations?  Simple, honor the NLI's you accept.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 11:59:26 AM
I see the representatives of both political parties ripping into the other side whenever there's any suggested impropriety. When it's pointed out that "their guy" did the same thing six months ago they are the first to say "That was wrong too". But when "their guy" was in the cross hairs they defended him.

If you can show me some evidence of your moral outrage towards TC DURING the Saunders incident I'll gladly cede you the moral high ground here. But if defense and acquiescence in one case has turned into shock and disappointment in another it just looks like a political operative reciting talking points.

I've asked you probably 10 times now, do you think we should honor LOI's? It's really a simple answer that requires either a yes or a no.  There is no gray area.

If you can answer that question, I'd feel all warm and fuzzy.

To answer your question, which I already did almost a week plus ago (and even provided you with a link that showed the discussion of Saunders leaving posts on MU Scoop at the time).

Quote from: Ners on July 21, 2010, 02:16:33 PM
While I realize this was an attempt to be funny - the reality is that Jamil Wilson is a big-time talent, and big time talent has a lot to do with teams making Final Fours. 

Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?   

Apparently he thinks he is attending the latter and not the former (his words, not mine).  We might want to get him a media guide or something so he shows up at the correct school.

Quote from: Nukem2 on July 21, 2010, 05:00:48 PM
This thread has become ridiculous.  Just a lot of self-proclaimed "experts" making specualtive guesses at the "truth".  Time to go golfing or play some tennis, boys and girls.

+1...million.  Some of these people are ridiculous.  Is one of you Buzz?  If not, you're wrong.  Seriously.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 21, 2010, 05:38:20 PM
Should have used teal .. the sarcasm clearly flew over the "ends justify the means" group.

I caught on to the sarcastic attempt you were making - and realized it was an attempt to be sarcastic and funny - which fell flat, by the way.  Waiting for you to rebut what I'd posted earlier about Wilson being a program changing type of recruit that could have serious upside ramifcations to bringing on board...

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 06:37:20 PM
Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?   

Apparently he thinks he is attending the latter and not the former (his words, not mine).  We might want to get him a media guide or something so he shows up at the correct school.

Lame Chicos.  You are better than this - I think.  As has been said many times, I don't think anyone likes what happened in the Newbill recruitment - but both parites probably share some blame - and for DJ..it's probably better off for him that he play at Southern Miss and have a chance at real playing time..as it probably was going to be real tough for him to get at MU.  Additionally, why would LaSalle ask DJ to redshirt?  And why no other high major programs offer DJ - if he was good enough..room would have been made for him at at Top program.  The moral is hopefully no more "flier" type of recruits.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 21, 2010, 05:38:20 PM
Should have used teal .. the sarcasm clearly flew over the "ends justify the means" group.

No offense but I think we -- if I am in fact a part of the "ends justify the means" group -- clearly understood the sarcasm.  You don't need teal to make that clear.  Just chose to ignore it and use it as support to further advance "our" evil agenda.

There is an apples and oranges comparison between Saunders and Newbill   

Saunders was turned down by the MU admissions office.  Newbill wasn't.  So technically, there was no "decision" to be made on Saunders--he didn't qualify  for admission.  End of story. 

Newbill was a different situation. His application was not rejected by MU.  In fact, it was not even due to the university yet. 

Whatever one wants to say about what might have happened if Newbill completed and submitted his application, the fact of the matter is that he never had the chance. 

And nobody here knows with certainty what the admissions office would do had they received his application. This whole story is completely different if the MU admissions office had issued an up-or-down decision on Newbill.  If they said no, then Newbill is not here--just like Saunders.   

If they said yes, however, then MU would have had to find another way to make room for Wilson--the only choice is probably that they choose not to renew a returning player's scholarship.

I think its telling that in the month or so this topic has been discussed, nobody has been able to name another incoming LOI player with any team in D1 who has had his scholarship similarly pulled prior to the school making an admissions decision. 

It is over, get over it.

Quote from: Ners on July 21, 2010, 07:03:20 PM
I caught on to the sarcastic attempt you were making - and realized it was an attempt to be sarcastic and funny - which fell flat, by the way.  Waiting for you to rebut what I'd posted earlier about Wilson being a program changing type of recruit that could have serious upside ramifcations to bringing on board...

It wasn't an attempt to be funny in the least.  It showed how brazen some people are with HOW they want to win, as evidenced by at least one poster agreeing.

I won't be refuting your commentary about Jamil because you are (hopefully) correct.  And how good Jamil is, matters how, exactly?   Are you trying to make the point that as long as we swap for a really good player, whatever MU needs to do to free up a scholarship is ok? 

I mean, it's not like Newbill ended up at a school that hasn't sniffed the NCAAs in almost 20 seasons.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:39:49 AM
No double standard.  Crean shouldn't have done it and neither should Buzz.

That argument by Robby in Indiana is a joke, it's a little kids argument.  "But but but, Billy did it so I should be able to do it".  I'd expect nothing less from Robby \ Canadian Dimes. 

Marquette University SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTING NATIONAL LETTERS OF INTENT unless we plan on honoring them.  I don't care who the coach is.  PERIOD!  Do what is right.  If MU didn't accept his NLI, this doesn't happen.  If MU honored his NLI, this doesn't happen.  MU chose, instead, to take his NLI and then not honor it, and that's why the media, other schools, and yes....many MU alums....are pissed and taking shots at MU.

Marquette has only themselves to blame.  HONOR YOUR COMMITMENTS or don't make them. 

Amen, brother.  Amen.  Honoring a commitment to another human being seems a lot like Cura Personalis to me.

wildbillsb

Man, this is turning into a long thread.

I haven't read every entry, but has anyone brought up Karl Rove's involvement?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 21, 2010, 12:55:19 PM
Well, believe it or not, I for one don't feel all that bad about it so that's not my motivation at all.  Good theory though.

Well...then I don't know what to say.  I mean, I want MU to honor its commitments.  That is what I learned when a student there...that honoring commitments no matter how difficult that might be is the *right* thing to do. 

Now, I know this isn't as black and white as some have portrayed it, but honestly, this entire episode makes me feel slimey.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 06:31:53 PM
I've asked you probably 10 times now, do you think we should honor LOI's? It's really a simple answer that requires either a yes or a no.  There is no gray area.

If you can answer that question, I'd feel all warm and fuzzy.

To answer your question, which I already did almost a week plus ago (and even provided you with a link that showed the discussion of Saunders leaving posts on MU Scoop at the time).

There are plenty of reasons not to honor a LOI.  I've asked you ten times, when, if ever, is it not okay to honor a LOI?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 06:37:20 PM
Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?   

Apparently he thinks he is attending the latter and not the former (his words, not mine).  We might want to get him a media guide or something so he shows up at the correct school.

Nice cheap shot at a 19 year old kid. I know how much you hate this when others do this.

Re: Saunders
Crean waited until school started to cut him loose.  Anyone who thinks it was because of academics is being naive.  He was admitted to Duquesne and played immediately.  Are you saying our basketball players may not be admitted even though they are academically eligible by the NCAA?  I didn't think so.

Buzz could have oversigned with Wilson, then waited until school was about to start, then cut Newbill loose.  To think he couldn't call the admissions office and cut him out is also nonsense - he could have just like Crean did.  Then the two situations would be the same.

I'm still waiting for the shoe to drop since Buzz said months ago that at least one of the recruits was headed to prep school and that the player knew he was headed there.  Something tells me that is not going to happen before the end of the summer. 

Quote from: avid1010 on July 21, 2010, 10:41:21 PM
There are plenty of reasons not to honor a LOI.  I've asked you ten times, when, if ever, is it not okay to honor a LOI?

Avid, I already answered the question almost two weeks ago.

Let me repeat for you, as it appears you missed it.

I would not honor a NLI under these circumstances and these circumstances only

1)  Recruit is arrested \ convicted for a felony crime
2)  Coaching change at the university
3)  Potential extreme family conditions....father \ mother passes away, seriously ill, student athlete needs to be back with family to take care of family needs

That would be my criteria.  I'm open to other considerations if someone can come up with them.

On this board we have been told that a lot of schools release kids for reasons not like those listed above, and that it "happens all the time".  To this day, 3 weeks later, I've yet to see one example of all these schools or happenings all the time.

Honor they commitments.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 10:49:02 PM
Nice cheap shot at a 19 year old kid. I know how much you hate this when others do this.

Cheap shot...to expect our recruit, who grew up in SE Wisconsin, to know where he is attending school?  Really?

Uhm, ok.  I didn't think requiring the kid to know where he was going to matriculate from over the next 4 years was asking the world.

I don't criticize (or try not to) how players play, or say on a message board that they suck, are worthless, are not DI players (Canadian Dimes) as others have done here time and time again.  But yeah, I do expect our kids to be able to understand what school they are attending.  I'm crazy evil like that.

Would the real Buzz Williams please speak up? Seriously, you guys speak as though you know exactly what went down. Could somebody please provide the exact details as to what went down? Somebody should be able to tell me, I mean you all know exactly what happened. Just like you all know exactly who Buzz is recruiting and where he'll be every day.

Here is the list of FACTS that we KNOW.
- Jamil Wilson is attending Marquette University.
- DJ Newbill is attending Southern Miss.

All the rest is pure speculation and every single one of you knows you don't know what happened and you're believing whatever fits your personal agenda. And you all know it.

Hell even what once SEEMED like facts we can't even be sure of. Do we even know DJ didn't send in his application? I mean, the high school coach who APPARENTLY was fired for being too good and getting too many wins and jealousy being involved (WHAT?!) we APPARENTLY found out was hardly involved in DJ's recruitment at all. Who's to say he was correct in that the application was ever never sent in? Chances are Phillycoach really didn't know. Same with when he was set to make his trip to Milwaukee. Has anybody said this is fact, that he was 3 days from moving in at Marquette

Seriously, nobody knows ANYTHING. The information we got on here was from a FIRED coach of Newbill's who APPARENTLY hadn't been involved in his recruitment for a year! So we're going to take his word as fact?! LOL! If you truly think that there wasn't something more to the story than what Phillycoach claimed then I feel bad for you. We don't even have a clue as to what the truth to this story is. Some of you act like the picture is crystal clear (on either side), when it couldn't be more murky! It's a joke!

Anybody with FACTUAL information, please enlighten us. Otherwise, don't PRETEND to know what's happening, because you don't.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 06:37:20 PM
Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?  

Seriously, your criticism is lame.  My father once wrote out a check at the bookstore to "University of Marquette".  I am sure he knew I attended Marquette University as he managed to show up at Marquette University for my graduation despite his earlier faux pas.  (And no before you rip on me my parents were not rich and I paid for nearly all my MU education)

As for your last comment about growing up in SE WI and he should know better, as I stated my father managed to make the same error despite living in WI for 59 years. And, despite his affliations with the evil empire, he was always an MU fan (and Badger Fan).  Cannot win them all.

Quote from: PE8983 on July 21, 2010, 10:59:57 PM
Re: Saunders
Crean waited until school started to cut him loose.  Anyone who thinks it was because of academics is being naive.  He was admitted to Duquesne and played immediately.  Are you saying our basketball players may not be admitted even though they are academically eligible by the NCAA?  I didn't think so.

Buzz could have oversigned with Wilson, then waited until school was about to start, then cut Newbill loose.  To think he couldn't call the admissions office and cut him out is also nonsense - he could have just like Crean did.  Then the two situations would be the same.

I'm still waiting for the shoe to drop since Buzz said months ago that at least one of the recruits was headed to prep school and that the player knew he was headed there.  Something tells me that is not going to happen before the end of the summer. 

Saunders was released prior to August 24, 2007...BEFORE school started.  Facts be damned I guess.   ::)  The release is below, he was likely informed the day prior or several days prior to the 24th of August.

http://www.insidewisconsinsports.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=All+Modules&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=63AF775CA3C542DA934155D08C37692C

According to the official Marquette calendar year, school started on the 27th of August in 2007

http://www.marquette.edu/mucentral/registrar/archive_calendars/2007-2008UndergraduateandProfessionalStudiesAcademicCalendar.shtml

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:04:03 PM
Cheap shot...to expect our recruit, who grew up in SE Wisconsin, to know where he is attending school?  Really?

Uhm, ok.  I didn't think requiring the kid to know where he was going to matriculate from over the next 4 years was asking the world.

I don't criticize (or try not to) how players play, or say on a message board that they suck, are worthless, are not DI players (Canadian Dimes) as others have done here time and time again.  But yeah, I do expect our kids to be able to understand what school they are attending.  I'm crazy evil like that.

Cheap shot. Really. You don't like to criticize how how players play but your ok with basically calling them stupid over an innocent mistake like this one? Suggesting that he doesn't know where he's going to school is so much lower than saying a kid can't shoot it's not even funny.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 06:37:20 PM
Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?   

Apparently he thinks he is attending the latter and not the former (his words, not mine).  We might want to get him a media guide or something so he shows up at the correct school.

Feel better about yourself?

Petty, petty, petty.

"Saunders was released prior to August 24, 2007...BEFORE school started.  Facts be damned I guess.     The release is below, he was likely informed the day prior or several days prior to the 24th of August."

Correct - sorry about the typo.  What a great guy TC was - gave him a whole week to find another school.   Fact remains Saunders was let go approximately 2 months later than whatever the circumstances were that came with Newbill's departure (along with the possibility he knew about it long before it even happened).  But, now you're irate.  

Still waiting to see which recruit we are going to lose to prep school before school starts...

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 11:21:12 PM
Cheap shot. Really. You don't like to criticize how how players play but your ok with basically calling them stupid over an innocent mistake like this one? Suggesting that he doesn't know where he's going to school is so much lower than saying a kid can't shoot is not even funny.

I called him stupid?  By using his own words?  That's a new one.  Let's hope Buzz gets that corrected, I'd like to see that verbal gaffe not repeated if possible.  Like it or not, he represents the university now and I think we all want our student athletes to speak well, stay out of trouble and understand what university they are attending.

Now you'll have to excuse me, there is something on television from the University of Harvard...or is it the University of Georgetown...can't recall.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:20:45 PM
Saunders was released prior to August 24, 2007...BEFORE school started.  Facts be damned I guess.   ::)  The release is below, he was likely informed the day prior or several days prior to the 24th of August.

http://www.insidewisconsinsports.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=All+Modules&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=63AF775CA3C542DA934155D08C37692C

According to the official Marquette calendar year, school started on the 27th of August in 2007

http://www.marquette.edu/mucentral/registrar/archive_calendars/2007-2008UndergraduateandProfessionalStudiesAcademicCalendar.shtml

Who cares about a day or two? Arguing over minutae instead of addressing the substance. All too typical.

Quote from: PE8983 on July 21, 2010, 11:28:39 PM
"Saunders was released prior to August 24, 2007...BEFORE school started.  Facts be damned I guess.     The release is below, he was likely informed the day prior or several days prior to the 24th of August."

Correct - sorry about the typo.  What a great guy TC was - gave him a whole week to find another school.   Fact remains Saunders was let go approximately 2 months later than whatever the circumstances were that came with Newbill's departure (along with the possibility he knew about it long before it even happened).  But, now you're irate.  

Still waiting to see which recruit we are going to lose to prep school before school starts...

Typo?   :o 

Honor they commitment, I don't care who the coach is.  Crean.  Wooden.  Buzz.  If you don't want the kid, don't accept the NLI.  The irony is, if TC was a complete prick, he would have dumped Hazel and kept Saunders, who was the much better player...sort of like Buzz just did.  Addition by subtraction.  But it doesn't matter, don't do it.  What happened to Marquette University alums that were taught the basics of ethics and morality?  HONOR THEY COMMITMENTS!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:20:45 PM
Facts be damned I guess.   ::)

Funny thing to say in this thread.  Can't find many of those here.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:34:55 PM
Typo?   :o 

Honor they commitment, I don't care who the coach is.  Crean.  Wooden.  Buzz.  If you don't want the kid, don't accept the NLI.  The irony is, if TC was a complete prick, he would have dumped Hazel and kept Saunders, who was the much better player...sort of like Buzz just did.  Addition by subtraction.  But it doesn't matter, don't do it.  What happened to Marquette University alums that were taught the basics of ethics and morality?  HONOR THEY COMMITMENTS!

Do you know for a fact Marquette didn't?  Do you know for a fact that DJ sent in an application and was accepted?  Do you know for a fact DJ wasn't told that he could sign with Marquette but IF somebody they were looking at with more interest decided they want to attend Marquette they would be asked to leave, and Jamil came calling, so Marquette HONORED THEIR COMMITMENT by asking him to leave HAVING TOLD HIM THIS WOULD BE THE CASE?

I'm not saying any of this stuff happened.  You seem pretty positive they didn't.  I am just wondering what your factual evidence behind this is.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:29:24 PM
I called him stupid?  By using his own words?  That's a new one.  Let's hope Buzz gets that corrected, I'd like to see that verbal gaffe not repeated if possible.  Like it or not, he represents the university now and I think we all want our student athletes to speak well, stay out of trouble and understand what university they are attending.

Now you'll have to excuse me, there is something on television from the University of Harvard...or is it the University of Georgetown...can't recall.

You used an innocent misstatement to mock a 19 year old soon to be student athlete at Marquette. Now you're digging yourself a deeper hole. If I were you I'd apologize to the kid and quit while I was behind.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:04:03 PM
Cheap shot...to expect our recruit, who grew up in SE Wisconsin, to know where he is attending school?  Really?

Uhm, ok.  I didn't think requiring the kid to know where he was going to matriculate from over the next 4 years was asking the world.

I don't criticize (or try not to) how players play, or say on a message board that they suck, are worthless, are not DI players (Canadian Dimes) as others have done here time and time again.  But yeah, I do expect our kids to be able to understand what school they are attending.  I'm crazy evil like that.

You know what?  You're probably right.  When he transferred from Oregon he really thought he was transferring to a made up school named the University of Marquette.  Little does he know, Buzz has another evil, mastermind plan to get him to attend Marquette University!  The kid has no clue where he is going to school!  Lol ::) (How's my impression of you going?  It's a work in progress...constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated).

You've NEVER in your life made a minor error when speaking?  Never mixed two words up or switched the order of two words in a sentence?  Damn, Chicos, count me impressed!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 11:33:22 PM
Who cares about a day or two? Arguing over minutae instead of addressing the substance. All too typical.

Who cares about the facts or the statement that he said he was let go after school started when it clearly wasn't....not surprising considering your factless post earlier today that BMA had to fix for you.
-Sincerely, Lenny


And you're arguing substance?  Jesus H. Christ.  Beware of lightening strikes.  This entire episode has been about SUBSTANCE, or the lack of it by MU.  Substance, indeed.

This needs to end......this weekend's pro-am action should get everyone back to talking about players that are actually on our team

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:47:57 PM
Who cares about the facts or the statement that he said he was let go after school started when it clearly wasn't....not surprising considering your factless post earlier today that BMA had to fix for you.
-Sincerely, Lenny


And you're arguing substance?  Jesus H. Christ.  Beware of lightening strikes.  This entire episode has been about SUBSTANCE, or the lack of it by MU.  Substance, indeed.

I made a mistake today. BMA gentlemanly pointed out my error. I admitted my mistake and thanked BMA for setting me straight. No histrionics. No name calling. No YELLING. No swearing. No hyperbole. Just adult discourse. Try it. You might like it.

"The irony is, if TC was a complete prick, he would have dumped Hazel and kept Saunders, who was the much better player...sort of like Buzz just did."

That's easy to say after it was determined who would have the better college career.  There's a good chance TC didn't know who was the better player.  Neither were highly rated out of high school.

Since you're so smart, why don't you tell me why TC waited so long to dump Saunders, when he knew James wasn't going to the draft back in early June or so?

Wow, can we lock this thread to stop the insanity now?  We have more fairy tales about Newbill and Saunders than a pre-school book stack, insight into Newbill's life rivaling that of the Kardashians despite DJ not having any coverage from E!, and a slight of one our own players straight from the Badger board.  Seems like a good couple days work...

(http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/regional_editions/globe_west/west/pile%20of%20garbage.jpg)

After reading all of this, what I (a very reasonable person) can come up as the two most likely scenarios:

GOOD FOR MU SCENARIO

DJ Newbill really wants to attend Marquette.  Buzz accepts his NLI but tells him, "Look, we love you as a player and would love to have you at MU, but we're deep at your position and we have other needs that you don't specifically fill.  If I can fill those needs this year, I'm going to ask you to attend prep school and attend MU one year later."  
It turns out through happenstance that Wilson becomes available, wants to attend Marquette, and we say to Newbill, "Sorry, we're going to go in a different direction with that scholarship.  We still want you to attend Marquette, but we have no room for you in this recruiting class and would like you to attend prep school."
That doesn't appeal to Newbill at all, he feels like he's been used and his "camp" lashes out at MU.  A more sophisticated group of advisors probably would have known this was a very real possibility and not allowed DJ to enter into the pact unless he was sure what it meant.

BAD FOR MU SCENARIO

We give Newbill an NLI to lock up a contingency in case we can't do better, Wilson becomes available and we say, "Sorry, DJ, but we cannot honor the NLI because we're oversigned by one."


Sorry, but I live in the real world, and in the real world your weakest recruit doesn't just happen to violate NCAA rules inadvertantly and by some miraculous coincidence a top level player becomes available at the same time.

By the way, based on some of Buzz' comments the GOOD FOR MU scenario is my best wildly uninformed guess at what happened, and isn't really too good for MU.  What's done is done, I hope it isn't repeated.

Quote from: PE8983 on July 22, 2010, 07:02:51 AM
That's easy to say after it was determined who would have the better college career.  There's a good chance TC didn't know who was the better player.  Neither were highly rated out of high school.

Actually there's about a 0% chance of that.  Anyone who'd seen both of them play, as Crean had, knew who was the better player after about 15 minutes.  Saunders was a 4-Star recruit according to Scout.com, and he was considered by most to be one of the best prep schools players in the country, Hazel was a 2-Star recruit according to that same service.  Outside of Marquette, Saunders had interest from places like Tennesee, Providence, Cincinatti, and Georgia.  Hazel had interest from Lehigh, Hofstra, UMass, and Rhode Island.  It was obvious to basically anyone with any knowledge of the two, who was the more talented prospect back then.

Getting good mileage out of this aren't you chicos. Cant wait until Buzz makes an actual mistake.

Quote from: bma725 on July 22, 2010, 07:58:33 AM
Actually there's about a 0% chance of that.  Anyone who'd seen both of them play, as Crean had, knew who was the better player after about 15 minutes.  Saunders was a 4-Star recruit according to Scout.com, and he was considered by most to be one of the best prep schools players in the country, Hazel was a 2-Star recruit according to that same service.  Outside of Marquette, Saunders had interest from places like Tennesee, Providence, Cincinatti, and Georgia.  Hazel had interest from Lehigh, Hofstra, UMass, and Rhode Island.  It was obvious to basically anyone with any knowledge of the two, who was the more talented prospect back then.

Actually you're giving Crean far too much credit. Anyone who's observed TC over the years, knows his skills in evaluating talent leave much to be desired.

Saunders ended up at Duquesne - not exactly a hotbed of bball.  Only other offer indicated on Scout is Providence.  Obviously, not many people were very impressed with his skills.  Afterall, he was qualified academically.

Chicos,

You have numerous  contacts at MU, (you worked there, didn't you), and throughout the sports world.  Can't you find the real story?  

At this point, nobody, including you, knows what really went on.  It is disingenuous to make statements of fact, that are nothing more than speculation.

I am not going to question your MU fandom.  Posters that I respect have backed you up on that.  Good Lord, this "shine the sh*tty light" on Buzz thing has changed the way I read your posts.  You used to be one of the more sane posters, but you go so far out of your way to make Buzz look bad, it's reflecting poorly on you.  It has gone way beyond waiting 5 years to make a judgement...it seems that you are looking for reasons he is failing already.

Quote from: mu-rara on July 22, 2010, 09:48:40 AM
Chicos,

You have numerous  contacts at MU, (you worked there, didn't you), and throughout the sports world.  Can't you find the real story?  

At this point, nobody, including you, knows what really went on.  It is disingenuous to make statements of fact, that are nothing more than speculation.

I am not going to question your MU fandom.  Posters that I respect have backed you up on that.  Good Lord, this "shine the sh*tty light" on Buzz thing has changed the way I read your posts.  You used to be one of the more sane posters, but you go so far out of your way to make Buzz look bad, it's reflecting poorly on you.  It has gone way beyond waiting 5 years to make a judgement...it seems that you are looking for reasons he is failing already.

Sighs, LOLs and protestations of innocence should be soon to follow. But belittling a teenager over a silly misstatement (University of instead of University) and then having the hubris and unmitigated gall to suggest his attack is somehow a defense of MU intellectual and academic standards is beyond the pale. The agenda-o-meter is through the roof.

The dead horse has been beaten but:

What would prevent a high major program, who was already at the limit with scholarships - to have signed DJ this summer, and then have him head off to prep school?  Could a school not choose to do that?  If Marquette were to have oversigned with Wilson, Newbill could have been sent to prep school - so why could the same scenario not apply to Newbill now -at a different high major program?

Quote from: PE8983 on July 22, 2010, 07:02:51 AM
That's easy to say after it was determined who would have the better college career.  There's a good chance TC didn't know who was the better player. 

Sort of like Buzz not knowing whether Vander Blue or DJ Newbill will have the better college career, right?

--Hazel averaged 8 points & 8 boards his senior year for a HS team that went 19-8.
--Saunders averaged 22 points and 16 boards his senior year in HS.  His team won 3 straight Conn. HS championships.  He then went on to average 8 points/10 boards for the national prep champion team.

Boy, a real head scratcher.  Hard to tell which player might be better in college.

Quote from: PE8983 on July 22, 2010, 07:02:51 AM
Neither were highly rated out of high school.

Wrong.

Saunders was the #6 rated prep, Hazel was the #56.   
Scout had Saunders a 4-star player and the 22nd rated PF.  Hazel was a 2-star, not ranked in the top 75 PFs.

Quote from: PE8983 on July 22, 2010, 07:02:51 AM
Since you're so smart, why don't you tell me why TC waited so long to dump Saunders, when he knew James wasn't going to the draft back in early June or so?

One more time:  Crean didn't dump Saunders--the MU admissions office declined to admit him to the university.

But since you're so smart and think Crean did control the admissions office, why wouldn't he have denied admission to Hazel and admitted Saunders? 

The logical answer here is that Crean had no choice in the matter.  If Saunders and Hazel had both been admitted, Crean would have had no choice other than to not renew one of the returning players scholarships.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 21, 2010, 11:34:55 PM
Typo?   :o 

Honor they commitment, I don't care who the coach is.  Crean.  Wooden.  Buzz.  If you don't want the kid, don't accept the NLI.  The irony is, if TC was a complete prick, he would have dumped Hazel and kept Saunders, who was the much better player...sort of like Buzz just did.  Addition by subtraction.  But it doesn't matter, don't do it.  What happened to Marquette University alums that were taught the basics of ethics and morality?  HONOR THEY COMMITMENTS!

You've written this several times so I have to ask, do you mean to say "Honor THY commitments," Mr. Holier-than-thou?  I hope so because "Honor THEY commitments" doesn't make any sense.  I also hope so because it makes you look like even more of a jackass for calling out Jamil on his mistake regarding MU's name when you don't know the difference between "thy" and "they."

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 08:07:44 AM
You've written this several times so I have to ask, do you mean to say "Honor THY commitments," Mr. Holier-than-thou?  I hope so because "Honor THEY commitments" doesn't make any sense.  I also hope so because it makes you look like even more of a jackass for calling out Jamil on his mistake regarding MU's name when you don't know the difference between "thy" and "they."

Dude... you can't win an internet argument by being the spelling police.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 23, 2010, 08:56:06 AM
Dude... you can't win an internet argument by being the spelling police.

Dude, I'm not concerned with winning an internet argument. I was merely pointing out the irony in Chicos bashing Jamil for misspeaking while at the same time repeatedly misspelling a simple 3-letter word. Is that acceptable, bro?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 09:06:43 AM
Dude, I'm not concerned with winning an internet argument. I was merely pointing out the irony in Chicos bashing Jamil for misspeaking while at the same time repeatedly misspelling a simple 3-letter word. Is that acceptable, bro?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/284401/

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 01:04:35 AM
Sort of like Buzz not knowing whether Vander Blue or DJ Newbill will have the better college career, right?

--Hazel averaged 8 points & 8 boards his senior year for a HS team that went 19-8.
--Saunders averaged 22 points and 16 boards his senior year in HS.  His team won 3 straight Conn. HS championships.  He then went on to average 8 points/10 boards for the national prep champion team.

Boy, a real head scratcher.  Hard to tell which player might be better in college.


Wrong.

Saunders was the #6 rated prep, Hazel was the #56.   
Scout had Saunders a 4-star player and the 22nd rated PF.  Hazel was a 2-star, not ranked in the top 75 PFs.


One more time:  Crean didn't dump Saunders--the MU admissions office declined to admit him to the university.

But since you're so smart and think Crean did control the admissions office, why wouldn't he have denied admission to Hazel and admitted Saunders? 

The logical answer here is that Crean had no choice in the matter.  If Saunders and Hazel had both been admitted, Crean would have had no choice other than to not renew one of the returning players scholarships.

Do you ever participate in a thread that does not pertain to Tom Crean?  It seems the only threads you contribute to are one's that get into the Tom Crean discussion - or a thread that sings the praises of Buzz Williams - which you attempt to discredit.  Just curious

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 09:45:51 AM
Do you ever participate in a thread that does not pertain to Tom Crean?  It seems the only threads you contribute to are one's that get into the Tom Crean discussion - or a thread that sings the praises of Buzz Williams - which you attempt to discredit.  Just curious

In this post, I corrected two factual errors.

1.  Tom Crean pulled the scholarship from Saunders (he did not--it was the admissions office that failed to admit Saunders).

2.  The error that Saunders and Hazel were both equally low rated players (the fact is that Saunders was rated significantly higher).

I think its telling that you cannot offer any fact-based counter argument.  Instead, you have to turn this into a personal attack on me for pointing out the facts.

My question to you is why you cannot engage in any sort of reasonable fact-based discussion on Buzz or Crean without it reflexively turning into some manifestation of a pro-Buzz/anti-Crean bias.

You want me to make a post that doesn't include Crean:  Here it is:

1.  Buzz should never have offered Newbill in the first place--we needed bigs.  
2.  Buzz should not have offered any side deals involving prep school knowing that the LOI does not allow such additions.
3.  Buzz's action may have a detrimental effect on recruiting if players/coaches believe that we won't honor our LOI.
4.  By locking up Newbill under an LOI, it definitely hurt Newbill's opportunities to pursue other teams and vice-versa.  

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 12:25:07 PM
You want me to make a post that doesn't include Crean:  Here it is:

1.  Buzz should never have offered Newbill in the first place--we needed bigs.  
2.  Buzz should not have offered any side deals involving prep school knowing that the LOI does not allow such additions.
3.  Buzz's action may have a detrimental effect on recruiting if players/coaches believe that we won't honor our LOI.
4.  By locking up Newbill under an LOI, it definitely hurt Newbill's opportunities to pursue other teams and vice-versa.  

Case in point.  Thank you.  A non-Crean related post that discredits Buzz Williams.  Shocking!!  I understand that you are a staunch Crean guy - no big deal - but you need to give it up.  Where MU and IU are in comparison to each other right now is shocking.  The talent differential at MU compared to IU (now that we can look at this with all of Crean's recruits being gone) is shocking.  What Williams has recruited to MU compared to what Crean has landed at IU in the same timeframe on the job is shocking.  You would think with Crean being at, It's Indiana, It's Indiana..he'd have the major advantage of being at a Top 5 all-time program...but nope..his program is floundering.  I await your excuse-laden reply as to why it was so hard to rebuild IU...and know you will mentione the NCAA violations that occured under the previous regime and that 1 scholarship was revoked.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 12:46:02 PM
Case in point.  Thank you.  A non-Crean related post that discredits Buzz Williams.  Shocking!!  I understand that you are a staunch Crean guy - no big deal - but you need to give it up.  Where MU and IU are in comparison to each other right now is shocking.  The talent differential at MU compared to IU (now that we can look at this with all of Crean's recruits being gone) is shocking.  What Williams has recruited to MU compared to what Crean has landed at IU in the same timeframe on the job is shocking.  You would think with Crean being at, It's Indiana, It's Indiana..he'd have the major advantage of being at a Top 5 all-time program...but nope..his program is floundering.  I await your excuse-laden reply as to why it was so hard to rebuild IU...and know you will mentione the NCAA violations that occured under the previous regime and that 1 scholarship was revoked.

Hey Ners, why instead of the TC/Buzz pissing match, respond to 84's four points.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 12:46:02 PM
Case in point.  Thank you.  A non-Crean related post that discredits Buzz Williams.  Shocking!!  I understand that you are a staunch Crean guy - no big deal - but you need to give it up.  Where MU and IU are in comparison to each other right now is shocking.  The talent differential at MU compared to IU (now that we can look at this with all of Crean's recruits being gone) is shocking.  What Williams has recruited to MU compared to what Crean has landed at IU in the same timeframe on the job is shocking.  You would think with Crean being at, It's Indiana, It's Indiana..he'd have the major advantage of being at a Top 5 all-time program...but nope..his program is floundering.  I await your excuse-laden reply as to why it was so hard to rebuild IU...and know you will mentione the NCAA violations that occured under the previous regime and that 1 scholarship was revoked.

He's not a staunch TC guy actually.

Now, about the 4 points he made..........

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 12:25:07 PM
1.  Buzz should never have offered Newbill in the first place--we needed bigs.  

I absolutely agree with this and had the same opinion when Newbill's committment came out of nowhere.

Quote from: reinko on July 23, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
Hey Ners, why instead of the TC/Buzz pissing match, respond to 84's four points.

Here's a response:  Hindsight is 20/20 - and I'm not going to complain about how Buzz has handled the MU program since he took over.  Do I like what happened with Newbill, regardless of how you slice it?  No.  Have I said as much?  Yes.

I'm sure if Buzz had it to do all over again, he'd have done it differently.  At the end of the day, the state of MU program, compared to our predecessors program at IU - are night and day..and one is in a nightmare, the other is living in the light with the future looking bright.

As for Crean overrecruiting in the case of Saunders and Hazel - because he "thought" Dominic was going pro - wouldn't you thinkas head coach he should have known if Dominic as going to go pro??

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 01:26:30 PM
As for Crean overrecruiting in the case of Saunders and Hazel - because he "thought" Dominic was going pro - wouldn't you thinkas head coach he should have known if Dominic as going to go pro??

At the time Saunders signed the LOI, he did know.  But what you know in November often turns out not to be true by the time June rolls around.  No one would have forecasted that Dominic, coming off a freshman year where people were already saying he was a 1st rounder, would struggle the way he did that year....and that changed everything.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 01:26:30 PM
As for Crean overrecruiting in the case of Saunders and Hazel - because he "thought" Dominic was going pro - wouldn't you thinkas head coach he should have known if Dominic as going to go pro??

Holy cow!  I don't like Crean too, but how is he supposed to know that when he's got to lock up recruits almost a whole year before the decision is made?  

You want to say Crean shouldn't have recruited a player of Hazel's calibre or something, I'll listen, but he had an obligation to allow for the possibility of DJ's departure since at the time it was a real possibility.  Heck, when Saunders signed he HAD TO KNOW we were one over the limit and DJ returning to MU was a real possibility.  

That is not the same as signing a guy to a NLI with the idea that you may not honor it if someone better comes along.

Quote from: CTWarrior on July 23, 2010, 01:36:26 PM
Holy cow!  I don't like Crean too, but how is he supposed to know that when he's got to lock up recruits almost a whole year before the decision is made?  

You want to say Crean shouldn't have recruited a player of Hazel's calibre or something, I'll listen, but he had an obligation to allow for the possibility of DJ's departure since at the time it was a real possibility.  Heck, when Saunders signed he HAD TO KNOW we were one over the limit and DJ returning to MU was a real possibility.  

That is not the same as signing a guy to a NLI with the idea that you may not honor it if someone better comes along.

How is knowing that a guy might not enter the draft and you won't be able to attend a school any different from knowing that the school might bring in someone over you and you won't be able to attend, from a recruit's perspective?

84-Would you have been ok with Buzz bringing in Wilson and then letting go of a guy like Fulce instead?  Did you think that was wrong when Crean was going to do it, as you stated previously that he would have been forced to do if Saunders would have been "accepted"?  Did you raise such contempt against Crean when he signed Saunders and it became apparent something was going to have to happen with the roster after it was known DJ wasn't going to go pro and prior to Saunder's arrest and him not being "admitted" to Marquette?

For the record, I don't like what happened with Newbill. I think Buzz took a flyer and then continued to recruit over him. Whether this was communicated to DJ, I don't know and probably none of us ever will.  I would hope Buzz wouldn't put himself into situations like this in the future.  I also thought it wasn't right when Crean oversigned and Saunders was conveniently not able to get into Marquette.

Quote from: jmayer1 on July 23, 2010, 02:12:23 PM
How is knowing that a guy might not enter the draft and you won't be able to attend a school any different from knowing that the school might bring in someone over you and you won't be able to attend, from a recruit's perspective?

When Saunders signed the LOI, if he could count to 14, had to know that he was the 14th player when 13 were allowed and there is no way to perceive it any other way. 

I don't believe Newbill knew we were going to try to recruit over him or at least did not understood it was a strong possibility because if he did, he has NO reason to sign that LOI.  None.  Why would someone voluntarily say, "Even though I don't have to, I am going to stop looking at other schools, many of them good schools, because this school promises they will take me only if someone better doesn't come along.  If someone does come along I will have to scramble for the best situation left."  What was he worried about, that someone else would jump ahead of him for the same crappy deal?

Quote from: jmayer1 on July 23, 2010, 02:12:23 PM
How is knowing that a guy might not enter the draft and you won't be able to attend a school any different from knowing that the school might bring in someone over you and you won't be able to attend, from a recruit's perspective?

84-Would you have been ok with Buzz bringing in Wilson and then letting go of a guy like Fulce instead?  Did you think that was wrong when Crean was going to do it, as you stated previously that he would have been forced to do if Saunders would have been "accepted"?  Did you raise such contempt against Crean when he signed Saunders and it became apparent something was going to have to happen with the roster after it was known DJ wasn't going to go pro and prior to Saunder's arrest and him not being "admitted" to Marquette?

For the record, I don't like what happened with Newbill. I think Buzz took a flyer and then continued to recruit over him. Whether this was communicated to DJ, I don't know and probably none of us ever will.  I would hope Buzz wouldn't put himself into situations like this in the future.  I also thought it wasn't right when Crean oversigned and Saunders was conveniently not able to get into Marquette.

+1

Fortunately for TC and Marquette, Saunders got himself into trouble and made the "who to cut" decision easy. If Saunders didn't get arrested, who's to say that Hazel wouldn't have been the odd man out? It seems likely that he would have been considering Saunders was a much more highly touted recruit.

The bottom line is that as long as coaches are allowed to oversign and allowed to rescind NLIs, stuff like this is going to happen. That doesn't mean it's "right" (from a moral perspective), but if it's within the rules, coaches are going to do it and I don't really blame them for it.

Quote from: CTWarrior on July 23, 2010, 02:36:21 PM
When Saunders signed the LOI, if he could count to 14, had to know that he was the 14th player when 13 were allowed and there is no way to perceive it any other way. 

I don't believe Newbill knew we were going to try to recruit over him or at least did not understood it was a strong possibility because if he did, he has NO reason to sign that LOI.  None.  Why would someone voluntarily say, "Even though I don't have to, I am going to stop looking at other schools, many of them good schools, because this school promises they will take me only if someone better doesn't come along.  If someone does come along I will have to scramble for the best situation left."  What was he worried about, that someone else would jump ahead of him for the same crappy deal?

If Saunders knew there was a good chance he'd never play for MU, considering he was scholarship #14, why would he have signed? Presumably because he was under the impression someone else was going to go.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 02:37:59 PM
If Saunders didn't get arrested, who's to say that Hazel wouldn't have been the odd man out? It seems likely that he would have been considering Saunders was a much more highly touted recruit.

Here I agree with you.  If someone other than the last man to sign had been jettisoned by Crean, it would poor form, unless there were extenuating circumstances like an arrest, etc.

10 pages of this debate, and you still have people telling us the "truth" with no evidence to support their claims.

Granted, if there was only one possible answer, then we could probably agree on what happened.  However, there's at least four plausible scenarios in play here:

1) Buzz just flat-out reneged on his offer to DJ (i.e. when DJ found out that MU was withdrawing the NLI, DJ had awoken that morning planning on being in Milwaukee next month).  This also includes a) prep school being discussed for the first time after the NLI was signed and b) Buzz questioning DJ's commitment to the team when it was discovered his application had not been filed.

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

3) DJ asked to be released from his NLI for circumstances not pertaining to #2 above (e.g. he realized he wasn't going to get playing time, he had a change of heart on MU and/or Milwaukee, his buddy at So Miss called, he never really intended to play at MU, etc.).

4) DJ was ruled ineligible at MU (e.g. did not qualify academically, contact/interview with a booster, some other violation or breach of code/ethics that has not been publicized, etc.).

5) This is all a well-orchestrated conspiracy by Marquette and the keepers to distract us from the epic Warrior vs. Golden Eagle debate.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 02:40:11 PM
If Saunders knew there was a good chance he'd never play for MU, considering he was scholarship #14, why would he have signed? Presumably because he was under the impression someone else was going to go.

I don't know why, he probably figured James would go pro.  But I do know he had to know he was the 14th guy.  I'm going to stop replying now, because it feels a little dirty to defend Tom Crean any more.

Suffice it to say I really don't like how we treated Newbill, still like Buzz, won't hold it against him unless it happens again.

Quote from: Benny B on July 23, 2010, 02:47:58 PM
10 pages of this debate, and you still have people telling us the "truth" with no evidence to support their claims.

Granted, if there was only one possible answer, then we could probably agree on what happened.  However, there's at least four plausible scenarios in play here:

1) Buzz just flat-out reneged on his offer to DJ (i.e. when DJ found out that MU was withdrawing the NLI, DJ had awoken that morning planning on being in Milwaukee next month).  This also includes a) prep school being discussed for the first time after the NLI was signed and b) Buzz questioning DJ's commitment to the team when it was discovered his application had not been filed.

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

3) DJ asked to be released from his NLI for circumstances not pertaining to #2 above (e.g. he realized he wasn't going to get playing time, he had a change of heart on MU and/or Milwaukee, his buddy at So Miss called, he never really intended to play at MU, etc.).

4) DJ was ruled ineligible at MU (e.g. did not qualify academically, contact/interview with a booster, some other violation or breach of code/ethics that has not been publicized, etc.).

5) This is all a well-orchestrated conspiracy by Marquette and the keepers to distract us from the epic Warrior vs. Golden Eagle debate.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

+1,0000,0000,0000.  No one here has the facts.  Nothing but guessing and specualtion..  I truly find it hard to believe that buzz simply jettisoned DJ in favor of Wilson.  Facts are probably otherwise.  In the final analysis, the situation should have been handled better without doubt.  Time to put this thread to bed. an

Quote from: Benny B on July 23, 2010, 02:47:58 PM
10 pages of this debate, and you still have people telling us the "truth" with no evidence to support their claims.

Granted, if there was only one possible answer, then we could probably agree on what happened.  However, there's at least four plausible scenarios in play here:

1) Buzz just flat-out reneged on his offer to DJ (i.e. when DJ found out that MU was withdrawing the NLI, DJ had awoken that morning planning on being in Milwaukee next month).  This also includes a) prep school being discussed for the first time after the NLI was signed and b) Buzz questioning DJ's commitment to the team when it was discovered his application had not been filed.

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

3) DJ asked to be released from his NLI for circumstances not pertaining to #2 above (e.g. he realized he wasn't going to get playing time, he had a change of heart on MU and/or Milwaukee, his buddy at So Miss called, he never really intended to play at MU, etc.).

4) DJ was ruled ineligible at MU (e.g. did not qualify academically, contact/interview with a booster, some other violation or breach of code/ethics that has not been publicized, etc.).

5) This is all a well-orchestrated conspiracy by Marquette and the keepers to distract us from the epic Warrior vs. Golden Eagle debate.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't see how #4 can be on your list since his application wasn't in.  How could he not qualify academically if he didn't have his application in?

Quote from: bma725 on July 23, 2010, 01:35:01 PM
At the time Saunders signed the LOI, he did know.  But what you know in November often turns out not to be true by the time June rolls around.  No one would have forecasted that Dominic, coming off a freshman year where people were already saying he was a 1st rounder, would struggle the way he did that year....and that changed everything.

I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 03:01:51 PM
I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

He shouldn't have waited.

HONOR THY COMMITMENTS

Quote from: jmayer1 on July 23, 2010, 02:12:23 PM

84-Would you have been ok with Buzz bringing in Wilson and then letting go of a guy like Fulce instead?

Yes.  Absolutely.  That may surprise you, but I feel that after a player has had a year, both player and coach can make a fair evaluation.  I don't think either side can accurately do that before they've played for one another.

Si Buzz could have let Fulce (or Otule, or E.Williams) make room for Wilson.  I would have had no problem with that.  Fulce signed an LOI, which bound him to us and vice versa for one year.  Both sides met their commitments.   After that, all bets are off.

Crean could have let Blackledge go to make room for Saunders.  I have absolutely no problem with that.

The NLI is supposed to give schools and players a one year commitment to each other.   Incoming players are supposed to be protected for one year.  Once you've had that year, you have to earn your place the following year.

Quote from: jmayer1 on July 23, 2010, 02:12:23 PM
  Did you think that was wrong when Crean was going to do it, as you stated previously that he would have been forced to do if Saunders would have been "accepted"? 

I believe that Crean was absolutely prepared to move Blackledge to a non-academic scholarship as soon as Saunders was admitted by MU. 

Blackledge had already failed the team by failing to remain eligible for the 2nd semester of his junior year, and I would have had no problem with telling him that the team can't take a chance on him again, and that from a life perspective Trend would be better served by focusing on academics.

I cannot imagine any credible scenario where Crean would have preferred to renew Blackledge's scholarship over an incoming Saunders, if the choice came down to that.

Quote from: jmayer1 on July 23, 2010, 02:12:23 PM
Did you raise such contempt against Crean when he signed Saunders and it became apparent something was going to have to happen with the roster after it was known DJ wasn't going to go pro and prior to Saunder's arrest and him not being "admitted" to Marquette?

No, because I think Crean truly wanted Saunders on the team and was prepared to move Blackledge to a non-athletic scholarship so he could focus on academics his senior year. 

I believe Crean fought for Saunders--which is why he wasn't immediately kicked out after the arrest, even though the arrest would have been more sufficient grounds for the admissions committee to turn him down.

As much as it may surprise you, I'm on record saying that its entirely appropriate to overrecruit to improve your team.  I just don't think you can tear up an NLI because a better player comes along.

If you give a kid like Menard or Hester a chance to compete and they're not cut out for it, I have no problem with the frank discussion that they won't be on the team the next year. 

Quote from: jmayer1 on July 23, 2010, 02:12:23 PM
For the record, I don't like what happened with Newbill. I think Buzz took a flyer and then continued to recruit over him. Whether this was communicated to DJ, I don't know and probably none of us ever will.  I would hope Buzz wouldn't put himself into situations like this in the future.  I also thought it wasn't right when Crean oversigned and Saunders was conveniently not able to get into Marquette.

I have no problem with over signing--I just feel that the player that has to leave must have already had his one-year commitment honored.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 02:58:42 PM
I don't see how #4 can be on your list since his application wasn't in.  How could he not qualify academically if he didn't have his application in?

A player could have been waiting for his SAT results and once he saw that he didn't receive the minimum score, he wouldn't have needed to submit his application to know he would not qualify academically.

I am absolutely NOT saying this was the case with DJ, I'm merely giving an example of how this would have been possible for Recruit X.


EDIT: Realized the question was only in regards to being academically ineligible.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 03:01:51 PM
I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

We'll never know for sure--the admissions office doesn't release details on their reasoning.

We can easily come up with credible possibilites:

1.  Perhaps he Admissions office hadn't decided yet.  Maybe they were waiting to see the outcome of the court hearings on his arrest.  Maybe they were waiting for the final test scores  (which may have taken up to 8 weeks after the last Mid-June test date).  Maybe they were waiting for additional paperwork from his HS and had to wait for the HS counselor to return from summer break. 

2.  Maybe Saunders didn't submit his application until mid-August. Under the NLI it wasn't due until September 1st or the 1st day of school.  MU can't review an application until its submitted.

3.  Maybe it was decided weeks before, and the announcement wasn't issued until August. 

Quote from: Benny B on July 23, 2010, 02:47:58 PM

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

The NLI specifically prohibits additions (or deletions) from the uniform language for all schools.  Buzz cannot insert such a "condition" into Newbill's NLI.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 03:01:51 PM
I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

Because in June all you know is that you have to release someone, you don't know that it's Saunders.  If you're waiting for a kid to meet the academic requirements so that you can take him and release someone else, then you give him every opportunity to do so. 

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 03:06:24 PM
Yes.  Absolutely.  That may surprise you, but I feel that after a player has had a year, both player and coach can make a fair evaluation.  I don't think either side can accurately do that before they've played for one another.

So Roseboro arrives in July and it becomes painfully obvious almost immediately that he's in way over his head. He wants out and MU is ok with that. He has an opportunity to play at a school more suited to his abilities. But you say no way, the team and the player should be forced to spend a year with one another. They made a commitment. Interesting. On another subject, what do believe the statutes of limitations should be on people who vow "til death do us part"?  In your world I guess death would be the only way out.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 03:19:38 PM
We'll never know for sure--the admissions office doesn't release details on their reasoning.

We can easily come up with credible possibilites:

1.  Perhaps he Admissions office hadn't decided yet.  Maybe they were waiting to see the outcome of the court hearings on his arrest.  Maybe they were waiting for the final test scores  (which may have taken up to 8 weeks after the last Mid-June test date).  Maybe they were waiting for additional paperwork from his HS and had to wait for the HS counselor to return from summer break. 

2.  Maybe Saunders didn't submit his application until mid-August. Under the NLI it wasn't due until September 1st or the 1st day of school.  MU can't review an application until its submitted.

3.  Maybe it was decided weeks before, and the announcement wasn't issued until August. 

Seems you are quick to come up with reasons as to why we didn't "screw" Saunders over with our timing of his release, and giving Crean/MU the benefit of the doubt in Saunders case - but are assuming the worst to paint the release of Newbill in the worst of light.  We all know Saunders would have gotten in to MU as he was admitted to Duquense almost immediately - therefore he had necessary SAT scores to not be a non-qualifier..and to say that we only admit athletes that would make it inot MU without their athletic talents is very naive.  We all konw high major athletes get the benefit of the doubt when it comes ot meeting admissions requirements..

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 02:58:42 PM
I don't see how #4 can be on your list since his application wasn't in.  How could he not qualify academically if he didn't have his application in?

It wasn't a mutually inclusive list.  There might be a thousand reasons he could be declared ineligible, I simply listed three examples.

Nevertheless, if his SAT score was below the threshold, then you don't need to send in an application to tell you you're not qualified/eligible.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 03:25:05 PM
The NLI specifically prohibits additions (or deletions) from the uniform language for all schools.  Buzz cannot insert such a "condition" into Newbill's NLI.

Maybe Buzz bent the rules.  Maybe the conditions were verbal, not written.  Maybe it was an unwritten understanding between everyone in the room that day.

You can't argue that Buzz acted unethically by dishonoring an NLI, yet was ethical enough to not attempt to place "conditions" on an NLI.  The former is definitely slimier than the latter.

Quote from: Benny B on July 23, 2010, 03:48:56 PM
Maybe Buzz bent the rules.  Maybe the conditions were verbal, not written.  Maybe it was an unwritten understanding between everyone in the room that day.

You can't argue that Buzz acted unethically by dishonoring an NLI, yet was ethical enough to not attempt to place "conditions" on an NLI.  The former is definitely slimier than the latter.

Doesn't matter whether it's verbal, written or merely an understanding.  The NLI specifically states that no conditions in any form may be placed on it, signing the document nullifies any other conditions that you may have attempted to establish.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 03:08:44 PM
A player could have been waiting for his SAT results and once he saw that he didn't receive the minimum score, he wouldn't have needed to submit his application to know he would not qualify academically.

I am absolutely NOT saying this was the case with DJ, I'm merely giving an example of how this would have been possible for Recruit X.


EDIT: Realized the question was only in regards to being academically ineligible.

Except we know that his SAT scores were fine

Quote from: Benny B on July 23, 2010, 03:48:56 PM
Maybe Buzz bent the rules.  Maybe the conditions were verbal, not written.  Maybe it was an unwritten understanding between everyone in the room that day.

You can't argue that Buzz acted unethically by dishonoring an NLI, yet was ethical enough to not attempt to place "conditions" on an NLI.  The former is definitely slimier than the latter.

I'm not the one arguing that Buzz acted unethically to begin with by adding an improper verbal or unwritten condition to the NLI.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 03:46:39 PM
Seems you are quick to come up with reasons as to why we didn't "screw" Saunders over with our timing of his release, and giving Crean/MU the benefit of the doubt in Saunders case - but are assuming the worst to paint the release of Newbill in the worst of light.  We all know Saunders would have gotten in to MU as he was admitted to Duquense almost immediately - therefore he had necessary SAT scores to not be a non-qualifier..and to say that we only admit athletes that would make it inot MU without their athletic talents is very naive.  We all konw high major athletes get the benefit of the doubt when it comes ot meeting admissions requirements..

Why don't you provide a plausible explanation on what happened with Newbill that doesn't include some improper behavior.

So far, you're saying that think it was not unethical to dishonor Newbill's NLI because Buzz created a side agreement that allowed him to do so.

But that side agreement is unethical itself, because the NLI prohibits exactly the type of agreement you claim Buzz made with Newbill. 

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 09:06:43 AM
Dude, repeatedly misspelling

What colour is the centre of the moulded aluminium armour analysed then criticised by the labourer who endeavoured to preserve the honour of his neighbour who possessed tremendous humour while practising ploughing in his pyjamas without the least pretence or rancour as he reclined in the parlour, recognising the rigour of the heinous rumours so savoured by the would be saviours who craved titbits of valorous behaviour?

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 05:30:10 PM
Why don't you provide a plausible explanation on what happened with Newbill that doesn't include some improper behavior.

So far, you're saying that think it was not unethical to dishonor Newbill's NLI because Buzz created a side agreement that allowed him to do so.

But that side agreement is unethical itself, because the NLI prohibits exactly the type of agreement you claim Buzz made with Newbill. 

If you believe every letter of the law in college basketball recruiting is being followed to a "T," and interpreted in the most strict way - you are naive.  All high-major schools push the envelop about as far as they can.    Villanova has had a number of players go to prep school.  Teams oversign.  Kids transfer and break their initial commitment to universities.  Buzz had to replace Taylor and Williams who were let out of their LOI's.

I'm still waiting for you to address the state of the Indiana basketball program currently, against the Marquette program.  Both Buzz and TC have had the same amount of time to impact their program - why such a disparity in talent?   I mean Buzz doesn't have 6-8 Top 100 players in his own state, nor is Marqueette the flagship program of the state of Wisconsin - how is he assembling Top 100/Juco 1st team All American/Player of the Year talent up and down the roster, and Tom Crean can't do that at Indiana?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2010, 08:07:44 AM
You've written this several times so I have to ask, do you mean to say "Honor THY commitments," Mr. Holier-than-thou?  I hope so because "Honor THEY commitments" doesn't make any sense.  I also hope so because it makes you look like even more of a jackass for calling out Jamil on his mistake regarding MU's name when you don't know the difference between "thy" and "they."

Fair enough.  Yes, it was meant to be "thy", not "they".  One letter typo.   Hopefully Jamil understands MU means Marquette University, unless we give him some Michigan stuff where he might say University of Marquette.   ;)

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 05:49:27 PM


I'm still waiting for you to address the state of the Indiana basketball program currently, against the Marquette program.  Both Buzz and TC have had the same amount of time to impact their program - why such a disparity in talent?   I mean Buzz doesn't have 6-8 Top 100 players in his own state, nor is Marqueette the flagship program of the state of Wisconsin - how is he assembling Top 100/Juco 1st team All American/Player of the Year talent up and down the roster, and Tom Crean can't do that at Indiana?

I'll take a shot at that, even though it wasn't directed at me.

Buzz inherited 4 players that ended up in the top 10 all-time in MU scoring, a 3 straight NCAA tournament team, etc, etc

Crean inherited one varsity player that was a walk-on the year before and averaged less than 3 minutes per game and scored less than 30 points his entire career.

MU isn't on probation.  IU is.   The IU Administration, from the President on down to Fred Glass, laid out exactly who IU could go after and who they couldn't.  That mean a lot of players in the first few years were off limits to them.  There would be no quick fixes, plain and simple.

So that's for starters.   You can go from there if you wish, but to ignore that is about as silly as it gets.  Don't get me wrong, Crean's a d-bag but your question is bizarre....really, it is.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 05:00:58 PM
Except we know that his SAT scores were fine

Correct. Damien Saunders' SAT scores were fine. Tragedy what Crean did to that young man. I'm sure the leader of the TC lynch mob was quick to call him out for ruining the kid's life. Oh, I forgot. There was no lynch mob back then. You had yet to experience your epiphany.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 23, 2010, 06:49:17 PM
Correct. Damien Saunders' SAT scores were fine. Tragedy what Crean did to that young man. I'm sure the leader of the TC lynch mob was quick to call him out for ruining the kid's life. Oh, I forgot. There was no lynch mob back then. You had yet to experience your epiphany.

Lenny, there was a point in my life that I thought taxing the hell out of the rich, getting obliterated drunk, cheering for the Lakers and Dodgers, supporting Mike Dukakis and abortion were good ideas, too.   People change opinions.  If you happen to be really rigid and never change your mind, my hat's off too you.

He (Crean) should have honored the commitment.  All that being said, the two scenarios are not the same, nevertheless we should not be kicking people out of their NLI's before they have a chance to prove themselves.

 
And Newbill's SAT scores were fine as well.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
If you happen to be really rigid...my hat's off to you.

Actually, if that lasts more than 4 hours,  I am pretty sure that is a side effect you should consult your physician about.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 23, 2010, 07:06:56 PM
Actually, if that lasts more than 4 hours,  I am pretty sure that is a side effect you should consult your physician about.

Fortunately I haven't arrived at that point in my life that I need to be sitting in a bath tub next to my wife for that to happen.   ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 07:09:25 PM
Fortunately I haven't arrived at that point in my life that I need to be sitting in a bath tub next to my wife for that to happen.   ;)

Me either...I just overheard it on a tv ad....although you would have a place to hang your hat   ;D

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 07:09:25 PM
Fortunately I haven't arrived at that point in my life that I need to be sitting in a bath tub next to my wife for that to happen.   ;)

So, you're really not 60 yet?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 06:01:08 PM
I'll take a shot at that, even though it wasn't directed at me.

Buzz inherited 4 players that ended up in the top 10 all-time in MU scoring, a 3 straight NCAA tournament team, etc, etc

Crean inherited one varsity player that was a walk-on the year before and averaged less than 3 minutes per game and scored less than 30 points his entire career.

MU isn't on probation.  IU is.   The IU Administration, from the President on down to Fred Glass, laid out exactly who IU could go after and who they couldn't.  That mean a lot of players in the first few years were off limits to them.  There would be no quick fixes, plain and simple.

So that's for starters.   You can go from there if you wish, but to ignore that is about as silly as it gets.  Don't get me wrong, Crean's a d-bag but your question is bizarre....really, it is.

Did I ask for an explanation of IU's on court performance measured against MU's the last 2 years?  NO.  So what do the Big 3 and Lazar have to do with anything?  I know this is the argument you and 84 have been trumpeting for the last 2 years..but all of Crean's recruits are gone at MU now.  I asked for an explanation as to how you can explain the differnce in talent level at MU and IU at present day??  The bolded part above is a new offering on your part Chicos - now IU could only go after certain types of players in Crean's first 2 years?  Hey Tom - come Coach here and get us back on track, but you are restricted as to what types of players you can bring in.  Furthermore, even though Indiana shows up on many of the same prospect lists that Marquette does - Indiana still has had to bring in a certain type of player.  Don't argue JUCO's because we know Crean has brought in several of those in the last 2 years.  I'm not surprised 84 didn't answer the question, because there really is no comparison to the state of the two programs at present day. 

And let's not imply that the probation IU is on is any type of death sentence or highly restrictive type of probation. 

You're right Ners....having a successful program with successful players doesn't lead to more successful players coming in behind as they leave.   Instead, coming into a program that is decimated and on probation is the way to go and sure fired path to success, especially when you are also handcuffed by your administration with no quick fixes....unlike Kentucky, Memphis, etc  ::)


And you, quite frankly, know nothing of the restrictions internally that were put on IU by Glass and McRobbie or you wouldn't have made that last statement.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 23, 2010, 07:38:13 PM

So, you're really not 60 yet?

Not yet....is that when you lost rigidity?    ;D   RIMSHOT   

I'll let you know when I get there.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 05:49:27 PM
If you believe every letter of the law in college basketball recruiting is being followed to a "T," and interpreted in the most strict way - you are naive.  All high-major schools push the envelop about as far as they can.    Villanova has had a number of players go to prep school.  Teams oversign.  Kids transfer and break their initial commitment to universities.  Buzz had to replace Taylor and Williams who were let out of their LOI's.

So you're saying its okay if Buzz cheats a little bit because all schools do it?

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 23, 2010, 06:49:17 PM
Correct. Damien Saunders' SAT scores were fine. Tragedy what Crean did to that young man.

Other than offer him a scholarship, what did Crean do to Saunders? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 23, 2010, 07:56:54 PM
You're right Ners....having a successful program with successful players doesn't lead to more successful players coming in behind as they leave.   Instead, coming into a program that is decimated and on probation is the way to go and sure fired path to success, especially when you are also handcuffed by your administration with no quick fixes....unlike Kentucky, Memphis, etc  ::)


And you, quite frankly, know nothing of the restrictions internally that were put on IU by Glass and McRobbie or you wouldn't have made that last statement.

Coupld things Chicos - It's Indiana.  It's Indiana - pretty much guaranteed sure-fire success, right?  Isn't that why TC went there?  Why would he leave MU?  Not for more money...Okay, can you enlighten me as to the "interanl restrictions put on IU as far as recruiting?"  I'm aware a school HAS to self-impost restrictions due to improper recruiting in the past.  But what restrictions have made this such an uphill battle for TC?  Please do share. Thanks.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 09:15:46 PM

So you're saying its okay if Buzz cheats a little bit because all schools do it?

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

This is now the 3rd time you are asking me to clarify a point, which I've been willing to do..but I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the IU and MU program present day, are at such different talent levels?  Chicos has been trying for you..and threw out the inherited 4 of Top 10 scorers in program history...and that because we had recent success it would trump It's Indiana, It's Indiana...but Zar, DJ, Rel, and Matthews aren't relevant anymore..and Crean has had the same amount of time as Buzz has had to build a roster - and the disparity in talent is startling.  Please fill me in.

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 05:49:27 PM

I'm still waiting for you to address the state of the Indiana basketball program currently, against the Marquette program.  Both Buzz and TC have had the same amount of time to impact their program - why such a disparity in talent?   I mean Buzz doesn't have 6-8 Top 100 players in his own state, nor is Marqueette the flagship program of the state of Wisconsin - how is he assembling Top 100/Juco 1st team All American/Player of the Year talent up and down the roster, and Tom Crean can't do that at Indiana?

I don't want to get tied into the minutia, but WTF does IU and TC sucking ass have to do with Buzz Williams or DJ Newbill?

IU does suck pretty bad, but that really has doesn't have anything to do with Buzz Williams. Nothing.

Maybe you guys should start another Buzz vs TC thread. That would be awesome.

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/starmanrulz/GIF%20Album/popcorn2.gif)

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 09:52:25 PM
This is now the 3rd time you are asking me to clarify a point, which I've been willing to do..but I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the IU and MU program present day, are at such different talent levels?  Chicos has been trying for you..and threw out the inherited 4 of Top 10 scorers in program history...and that because we had recent success it would trump It's Indiana, It's Indiana...but Zar, DJ, Rel, and Matthews aren't relevant anymore..and Crean has had the same amount of time as Buzz has had to build a roster - and the disparity in talent is startling.  Please fill me in.

Didn't you already answer this?  You claim Buzz is willing to "push the envelope" or even break a few rules (like adding conditions to LOIs) in order to get better players. 

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 09:48:06 PM
Coupld things Chicos - It's Indiana.  It's Indiana - pretty much guaranteed sure-fire success, right?  Isn't that why TC went there?  Why would he leave MU?  Not for more money...Okay, can you enlighten me as to the "interanl restrictions put on IU as far as recruiting?"  I'm aware a school HAS to self-impost restrictions due to improper recruiting in the past.  But what restrictions have made this such an uphill battle for TC?  Please do share. Thanks.

Ners...he did make more money at IU.  So you're wrong there.

Secondly, last I checked he's only been there two years. 

There's a reason he got a contract as long as he did and there's a BIGGER reason why it was extended before one game was played....because the restrictions that were put on the staff.  IU was embarrassed, something they don't take kindly to.  This is a proud proud university and they were flat out not going to have this happen to them again in terms of probation.   That meant cleaning it up with no borderline kids the first few years.  No Kentucky or Memphis shortcuts.  Glass and McRobbie have made it clear to the entire athletic department that this will never happen again.  I'm sorry you don't understand this and continue to want to compare to Kentucky or some other school with zero standards, zero academics, etc, but you continue to do so for some inane reason.

You continue to forget IU lost their best player last year before the Big Ten started...that cost them dearly.

Crean = douche?  Check. Agreed

Crean = self centered?  Check.  Agreed


Now, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 24, 2010, 10:37:08 AM
Ners...he did make more money at IU.  So you're wrong there.

Secondly, last I checked he's only been there two years. 

There's a reason he got a contract as long as he did and there's a BIGGER reason why it was extended before one game was played....because the restrictions that were put on the staff.  IU was embarrassed, something they don't take kindly to.  This is a proud proud university and they were flat out not going to have this happen to them again in terms of probation.   That meant cleaning it up with no borderline kids the first few years.  No Kentucky or Memphis shortcuts.  Glass and McRobbie have made it clear to the entire athletic department that this will never happen again.  I'm sorry you don't understand this and continue to want to compare to Kentucky or some other school with zero standards, zero academics, etc, but you continue to do so for some inane reason.

You continue to forget IU lost their best player last year before the Big Ten started...that cost them dearly.

Crean = douche?  Check. Agreed

Crean = self centered?  Check.  Agreed


Now, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

We've been down this debate many times over - unfortunately I got involved with 84 continuing to belabor how bad Buzz behaved in this Newbill situation, and how Crean in the Saunders situation is absolved of any guilt.  Chicos - at least you post new topics an dcontent that aren't Tom Crean related, and debate many things non Tom Crean related.  84?  Seems the only topics he gets involved with are Tom Crean, or to discredit Buzz Williams.

At the end of the day 84 has no good explanation fow how the state of MU and IU are so different with regard to talent on the current roster.  He has lamely used a point I made to imply that we are only this talented because Buzz pushes the limits of the recruiting rules in place (just as every other high major program does).  It is a competitive business, and you do everything you can to the extent the rules allow...

The last reality is that Tom Crean has been able to bring in recruits from JUCO's, and IU shows up on many of the "interest/offer" lists of players MU is also recruiting.  The handcuffs you speak of on Crean at IU aren't too restrictive.  The bottom line is that Bzz has done a better job than most anyone would have guessed with bringing talent to MU..and maybe MU has more talent on its roster 1-12 now, than ever before in program history..so..Crean has a lot to "match up against," if looking at the two programs at present day.

Idid not intend to have this devlove into another Tom Crean/Buzz Williams debate..but rather point out that 84 has 2 dimensions to his content on this board - defend Tom Crean toill death, or discredit Buzz Williams at any opportunity.  I leave the last word to you..I'm out.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 23, 2010, 11:43:35 PM
Didn't you already answer this?  You claim Buzz is willing to "push the envelope" or even break a few rules (like adding conditions to LOIs) in order to get better players. 

BTW, what Villanova player had his LOI yanked?

I believe the Nova player people are referring to is Markus Kennedy.  He signed for the 2010 class, but will now spend another year in prep school and be part of Nova's 2011 class.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/colleges/20100420_Recruit_Markus_Kennedy_won_t_join_Villanova_basketball_until_2011.html

Quote from: Ners on July 24, 2010, 10:53:06 AM
We've been down this debate many times over - unfortunately I got involved with 84 continuing to belabor how bad Buzz behaved in this Newbill situation, and how Crean in the Saunders situation is absolved of any guilt.  Chicos - at least you post new topics an dcontent that aren't Tom Crean related, and debate many things non Tom Crean related.  84?  Seems the only topics he gets involved with are Tom Crean, or to discredit Buzz Williams.

You're wrong about which thread I get involved with.  I actually started the thread on the final 2010 RSCI, as just one example.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21034.0

Quote from: Ners on July 24, 2010, 10:53:06 AM
At the end of the day 84 has no good explanation fow how the state of MU and IU are so different with regard to talent on the current roster. 

As many others have pointed out this is an irrelevant point.  Its no different than trying to make the case that O'Neill was a lousy recruiter at MU because he failed at Tennessee or Northwestern. 

Quote from: Ners on July 24, 2010, 10:53:06 AM
Idid not intend to have this devlove into another Tom Crean/Buzz Williams debate.

Actually, you DID intend to turn this into a discussion of Tom Crean.  I asked you to come up with your scenario on Newbill, and your response was a demand I explain an irrelevant point about Crean's recruiting at IU. 

Quote from: Ners on July 24, 2010, 10:53:06 AM
.but rather point out that 84 has 2 dimensions to his content on this board - defend Tom Crean toll death, or discredit Buzz Williams at any opportunity. 

Again, I have to remind you that I was on the Buzz bandwagon long before you were.  Go back and read the threads from April of 2008. 

The difference is that I don't hate Crean, nor feel that Buzz is beyond reproach.  He's making some mistakes, and the difference between you and me is that I'm at least willing to call him on them.  Nor am I going to make the same lies and misrepresentations about Crean in an ill-fated attempt to make Buzz look better by comparison.

Lets face it, everything to you is filtered through a "how does this make Crean look bad or Buzz look good," to the point where you fabricate things ("Crean ran off Saunders") or condone cheating ("all programs push the envelope") to fit with your agenda.

The irony is that you tear down Buzz all the time.

For example, I complemented him on the talent he brought in with Butler and DJO and Buycks and thought he'd keep the program in the top half of the league.  You argued that those recruits weren't very good, and therefore we would struggle. 

I said Buzz had more talent last year than Crean did in his worst season, and you argued that I was wrong, that the "cupboard was bare" even though it consisted of mostly Buzz's own recruits.  The fact that the supposedly "bare" cupboard included one of 15 top guards invited to the elite Chris Paul camp, one of the top 10 returning seniors-to-be (and named most underrated player in NCAA), and a first round draft pick--only the 2nd since 1978.  But you still claim Buzz had little to work with. 

In this argument, I assume that Buzz is generally honest but screwed up big time with Newbill.  Meanwhile you think its okay for him to cheat (by making additional conditions on the NLI) because "all schools do it."

And you think I'M trying to discredit Buzz?  You're doing a damn good job yourself.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 12:34:48 PM
You're wrong about which thread I get involved with.  I actually started the thread on the final 2010 RSCI, as just one example.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21034.0

As many others have pointed out this is an irrelevant point.  Its no different than trying to make the case that O'Neill was a lousy recruiter at MU because he failed at Tennessee or Northwestern. 

Actually, you DID intend to turn this into a discussion of Tom Crean.  I asked you to come up with your scenario on Newbill, and your response was a demand I explain an irrelevant point about Crean's recruiting at IU. 

Again, I have to remind you that I was on the Buzz bandwagon long before you were.  Go back and read the threads from April of 2008. 

The difference is that I don't hate Crean, nor feel that Buzz is beyond reproach.  He's making some mistakes, and the difference between you and me is that I'm at least willing to call him on them.  Nor am I going to make the same lies and misrepresentations about Crean in an ill-fated attempt to make Buzz look better by comparison.

Lets face it, everything to you is filtered through a "how does this make Crean look bad or Buzz look good," to the point where you fabricate things ("Crean ran off Saunders") or condone cheating ("all programs push the envelope") to fit with your agenda.

The irony is that you tear down Buzz all the time.

For example, I complemented him on the talent he brought in with Butler and DJO and Buycks and thought he'd keep the program in the top half of the league.  You argued that those recruits weren't very good, and therefore we would struggle. 

I said Buzz had more talent last year than Crean did in his worst season, and you argued that I was wrong, that the "cupboard was bare" even though it consisted of mostly Buzz's own recruits.  The fact that the supposedly "bare" cupboard included one of 15 top guards invited to the elite Chris Paul camp, one of the top 10 returning seniors-to-be (and named most underrated player in NCAA), and a first round draft pick--only the 2nd since 1978.  But you still claim Buzz had little to work with. 

In this argument, I assume that Buzz is generally honest but screwed up big time with Newbill.  Meanwhile you think its okay for him to cheat (by making additional conditions on the NLI) because "all schools do it."

And you think I'M trying to discredit Buzz?  You're doing a damn good job yourself.

Blah, blah, blah...another long-winded rebuttal that isn't going to change my mind (or anyone elses) about your intentions.  Don't some here think you actually might be Joanie Crean?  That says enough in itself.  AND THANKS FOR STILL NOT OFFERING AN EXPLANATION AS TO HOW MU AND IU PROGARMS ARE AT SUCH DIFFERENT LEVELS WITH CURRENT TALENT...when both Buzz and Tommy have had the exact same amount of time at their university.

Quote from: Ners on July 24, 2010, 03:35:57 PM
Blah, blah, blah...another long-winded rebuttal that isn't going to change my mind (or anyone elses) about your intentions.  Don't some here think you actually might be Joanie Crean?  That says enough in itself.  AND THANKS FOR STILL NOT OFFERING AN EXPLANATION AS TO HOW MU AND IU PROGARMS ARE AT SUCH DIFFERENT LEVELS WITH CURRENT TALENT...when both Buzz and Tommy have had the exact same amount of time at their university.

Dude, what the hell is your problem?  Every single one of your posts is about how you hate Crean, love Buzz, or call someone out because they're not Mr. Buzz Fanboi/Crean Hater just like you.

Now you're going bezerk because I won't answer your stupid, bating, irrelevant question about IU?  Chicos answered it.  He gave a damn fine answer.  I agree with him, and I agree with the others who said you were irrelevant for even asking it.  Let it go already.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 06:45:43 PM
Dude, what the hell is your problem?  Every single one of your posts is about how you hate Crean, love Buzz, or call someone out because they're not Mr. Buzz Fanboi/Crean Hater just like you.

Now you're going bezerk because I won't answer your stupid, bating, irrelevant question about IU?  Chicos answered it.  He gave a damn fine answer.  I agree with him, and I agree with the others who said you were irrelevant for even asking it.  Let it go already.

I don't like because you are unsafe.  You are everybodys problem.  Thanks for playing, Tommy Crean Fanboi.  It is impossible to have a relevant debate with you because you see everything through the Tan Colored Lens of your man crush Tom Crean.  I think it is time for you to let Tom Crean go already.  He's yesterday's news at MU - we have a much better coach now.  Your personal TC crusade may now come to an end.