Endless Internet Argument - A Summertime Tradition

[Benny B]

10 pages of this debate, and you still have people telling us the "truth" with no evidence to support their claims.

Granted, if there was only one possible answer, then we could probably agree on what happened.  However, there's at least four plausible scenarios in play here:

1) Buzz just flat-out reneged on his offer to DJ (i.e. when DJ found out that MU was withdrawing the NLI, DJ had awoken that morning planning on being in Milwaukee next month).  This also includes a) prep school being discussed for the first time after the NLI was signed and b) Buzz questioning DJ's commitment to the team when it was discovered his application had not been filed.

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

3) DJ asked to be released from his NLI for circumstances not pertaining to #2 above (e.g. he realized he wasn't going to get playing time, he had a change of heart on MU and/or Milwaukee, his buddy at So Miss called, he never really intended to play at MU, etc.).

4) DJ was ruled ineligible at MU (e.g. did not qualify academically, contact/interview with a booster, some other violation or breach of code/ethics that has not been publicized, etc.).

5) This is all a well-orchestrated conspiracy by Marquette and the keepers to distract us from the epic Warrior vs. Golden Eagle debate.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

[CTWarrior]

If Saunders knew there was a good chance he'd never play for MU, considering he was scholarship #14, why would he have signed? Presumably because he was under the impression someone else was going to go.

I don't know why, he probably figured James would go pro.  But I do know he had to know he was the 14th guy.  I'm going to stop replying now, because it feels a little dirty to defend Tom Crean any more.

Suffice it to say I really don't like how we treated Newbill, still like Buzz, won't hold it against him unless it happens again.

[Nukem2]

10 pages of this debate, and you still have people telling us the "truth" with no evidence to support their claims.

Granted, if there was only one possible answer, then we could probably agree on what happened.  However, there's at least four plausible scenarios in play here:

1) Buzz just flat-out reneged on his offer to DJ (i.e. when DJ found out that MU was withdrawing the NLI, DJ had awoken that morning planning on being in Milwaukee next month).  This also includes a) prep school being discussed for the first time after the NLI was signed and b) Buzz questioning DJ's commitment to the team when it was discovered his application had not been filed.

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

3) DJ asked to be released from his NLI for circumstances not pertaining to #2 above (e.g. he realized he wasn't going to get playing time, he had a change of heart on MU and/or Milwaukee, his buddy at So Miss called, he never really intended to play at MU, etc.).

4) DJ was ruled ineligible at MU (e.g. did not qualify academically, contact/interview with a booster, some other violation or breach of code/ethics that has not been publicized, etc.).

5) This is all a well-orchestrated conspiracy by Marquette and the keepers to distract us from the epic Warrior vs. Golden Eagle debate.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

+1,0000,0000,0000.  No one here has the facts.  Nothing but guessing and specualtion..  I truly find it hard to believe that buzz simply jettisoned DJ in favor of Wilson.  Facts are probably otherwise.  In the final analysis, the situation should have been handled better without doubt.  Time to put this thread to bed. an

[ChicosBailBonds]

10 pages of this debate, and you still have people telling us the "truth" with no evidence to support their claims.

Granted, if there was only one possible answer, then we could probably agree on what happened.  However, there's at least four plausible scenarios in play here:

1) Buzz just flat-out reneged on his offer to DJ (i.e. when DJ found out that MU was withdrawing the NLI, DJ had awoken that morning planning on being in Milwaukee next month).  This also includes a) prep school being discussed for the first time after the NLI was signed and b) Buzz questioning DJ's commitment to the team when it was discovered his application had not been filed.

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

3) DJ asked to be released from his NLI for circumstances not pertaining to #2 above (e.g. he realized he wasn't going to get playing time, he had a change of heart on MU and/or Milwaukee, his buddy at So Miss called, he never really intended to play at MU, etc.).

4) DJ was ruled ineligible at MU (e.g. did not qualify academically, contact/interview with a booster, some other violation or breach of code/ethics that has not been publicized, etc.).

5) This is all a well-orchestrated conspiracy by Marquette and the keepers to distract us from the epic Warrior vs. Golden Eagle debate.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't see how #4 can be on your list since his application wasn't in.  How could he not qualify academically if he didn't have his application in?

[NersEllenson]

At the time Saunders signed the LOI, he did know.  But what you know in November often turns out not to be true by the time June rolls around.  No one would have forecasted that Dominic, coming off a freshman year where people were already saying he was a 1st rounder, would struggle the way he did that year....and that changed everything.

I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

[ChicosBailBonds]

I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

He shouldn't have waited.

HONOR THY COMMITMENTS

[Marquette84]

84-Would you have been ok with Buzz bringing in Wilson and then letting go of a guy like Fulce instead?

Yes.  Absolutely.  That may surprise you, but I feel that after a player has had a year, both player and coach can make a fair evaluation.  I don't think either side can accurately do that before they've played for one another.

Si Buzz could have let Fulce (or Otule, or E.Williams) make room for Wilson.  I would have had no problem with that.  Fulce signed an LOI, which bound him to us and vice versa for one year.  Both sides met their commitments.   After that, all bets are off.

Crean could have let Blackledge go to make room for Saunders.  I have absolutely no problem with that.

The NLI is supposed to give schools and players a one year commitment to each other.   Incoming players are supposed to be protected for one year.  Once you've had that year, you have to earn your place the following year.

  Did you think that was wrong when Crean was going to do it, as you stated previously that he would have been forced to do if Saunders would have been "accepted"? 

I believe that Crean was absolutely prepared to move Blackledge to a non-academic scholarship as soon as Saunders was admitted by MU. 

Blackledge had already failed the team by failing to remain eligible for the 2nd semester of his junior year, and I would have had no problem with telling him that the team can't take a chance on him again, and that from a life perspective Trend would be better served by focusing on academics.

I cannot imagine any credible scenario where Crean would have preferred to renew Blackledge's scholarship over an incoming Saunders, if the choice came down to that.

Did you raise such contempt against Crean when he signed Saunders and it became apparent something was going to have to happen with the roster after it was known DJ wasn't going to go pro and prior to Saunder's arrest and him not being "admitted" to Marquette?

No, because I think Crean truly wanted Saunders on the team and was prepared to move Blackledge to a non-athletic scholarship so he could focus on academics his senior year. 

I believe Crean fought for Saunders--which is why he wasn't immediately kicked out after the arrest, even though the arrest would have been more sufficient grounds for the admissions committee to turn him down.

As much as it may surprise you, I'm on record saying that its entirely appropriate to overrecruit to improve your team.  I just don't think you can tear up an NLI because a better player comes along.

If you give a kid like Menard or Hester a chance to compete and they're not cut out for it, I have no problem with the frank discussion that they won't be on the team the next year. 

For the record, I don't like what happened with Newbill. I think Buzz took a flyer and then continued to recruit over him. Whether this was communicated to DJ, I don't know and probably none of us ever will.  I would hope Buzz wouldn't put himself into situations like this in the future.  I also thought it wasn't right when Crean oversigned and Saunders was conveniently not able to get into Marquette.

I have no problem with over signing--I just feel that the player that has to leave must have already had his one-year commitment honored.

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't see how #4 can be on your list since his application wasn't in.  How could he not qualify academically if he didn't have his application in?

A player could have been waiting for his SAT results and once he saw that he didn't receive the minimum score, he wouldn't have needed to submit his application to know he would not qualify academically.

I am absolutely NOT saying this was the case with DJ, I'm merely giving an example of how this would have been possible for Recruit X.


EDIT: Realized the question was only in regards to being academically ineligible.

[Marquette84]

I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

We'll never know for sure--the admissions office doesn't release details on their reasoning.

We can easily come up with credible possibilites:

1.  Perhaps he Admissions office hadn't decided yet.  Maybe they were waiting to see the outcome of the court hearings on his arrest.  Maybe they were waiting for the final test scores  (which may have taken up to 8 weeks after the last Mid-June test date).  Maybe they were waiting for additional paperwork from his HS and had to wait for the HS counselor to return from summer break. 

2.  Maybe Saunders didn't submit his application until mid-August. Under the NLI it wasn't due until September 1st or the 1st day of school.  MU can't review an application until its submitted.

3.  Maybe it was decided weeks before, and the announcement wasn't issued until August. 

[Marquette84]

2) DJ was aware that there were "conditions" on his NLI and/or was asked to go to prep school (or knew that MU might ask at some point before school started) before he signed his NLI.  He agreed, signed his NLI, but decided against prep school.

I challenge anyone to prove or disprove any one of the above scenarios beyond a reasonable doubt.

The NLI specifically prohibits additions (or deletions) from the uniform language for all schools.  Buzz cannot insert such a "condition" into Newbill's NLI.

[bma725]

I get this point..but..if we knew this then in June...why not release Saunders in June..instead of 3 days before classes start??  Why wait until August what 24 to tell Saunders he isn't coming to MU?  Put Saunders in a much worse position than Newbill..that much less time to shop his availability to other schools

Because in June all you know is that you have to release someone, you don't know that it's Saunders.  If you're waiting for a kid to meet the academic requirements so that you can take him and release someone else, then you give him every opportunity to do so. 

[Lennys Tap]

Yes.  Absolutely.  That may surprise you, but I feel that after a player has had a year, both player and coach can make a fair evaluation.  I don't think either side can accurately do that before they've played for one another.

So Roseboro arrives in July and it becomes painfully obvious almost immediately that he's in way over his head. He wants out and MU is ok with that. He has an opportunity to play at a school more suited to his abilities. But you say no way, the team and the player should be forced to spend a year with one another. They made a commitment. Interesting. On another subject, what do believe the statutes of limitations should be on people who vow "til death do us part"?  In your world I guess death would be the only way out.

[NersEllenson]

We'll never know for sure--the admissions office doesn't release details on their reasoning.

We can easily come up with credible possibilites:

1.  Perhaps he Admissions office hadn't decided yet.  Maybe they were waiting to see the outcome of the court hearings on his arrest.  Maybe they were waiting for the final test scores  (which may have taken up to 8 weeks after the last Mid-June test date).  Maybe they were waiting for additional paperwork from his HS and had to wait for the HS counselor to return from summer break. 

2.  Maybe Saunders didn't submit his application until mid-August. Under the NLI it wasn't due until September 1st or the 1st day of school.  MU can't review an application until its submitted.

3.  Maybe it was decided weeks before, and the announcement wasn't issued until August. 

Seems you are quick to come up with reasons as to why we didn't "screw" Saunders over with our timing of his release, and giving Crean/MU the benefit of the doubt in Saunders case - but are assuming the worst to paint the release of Newbill in the worst of light.  We all know Saunders would have gotten in to MU as he was admitted to Duquense almost immediately - therefore he had necessary SAT scores to not be a non-qualifier..and to say that we only admit athletes that would make it inot MU without their athletic talents is very naive.  We all konw high major athletes get the benefit of the doubt when it comes ot meeting admissions requirements..

[Benny B]

I don't see how #4 can be on your list since his application wasn't in.  How could he not qualify academically if he didn't have his application in?

It wasn't a mutually inclusive list.  There might be a thousand reasons he could be declared ineligible, I simply listed three examples.

Nevertheless, if his SAT score was below the threshold, then you don't need to send in an application to tell you you're not qualified/eligible.

The NLI specifically prohibits additions (or deletions) from the uniform language for all schools.  Buzz cannot insert such a "condition" into Newbill's NLI.

Maybe Buzz bent the rules.  Maybe the conditions were verbal, not written.  Maybe it was an unwritten understanding between everyone in the room that day.

You can't argue that Buzz acted unethically by dishonoring an NLI, yet was ethical enough to not attempt to place "conditions" on an NLI.  The former is definitely slimier than the latter.

[bma725]

Maybe Buzz bent the rules.  Maybe the conditions were verbal, not written.  Maybe it was an unwritten understanding between everyone in the room that day.

You can't argue that Buzz acted unethically by dishonoring an NLI, yet was ethical enough to not attempt to place "conditions" on an NLI.  The former is definitely slimier than the latter.

Doesn't matter whether it's verbal, written or merely an understanding.  The NLI specifically states that no conditions in any form may be placed on it, signing the document nullifies any other conditions that you may have attempted to establish.

[ChicosBailBonds]

A player could have been waiting for his SAT results and once he saw that he didn't receive the minimum score, he wouldn't have needed to submit his application to know he would not qualify academically.

I am absolutely NOT saying this was the case with DJ, I'm merely giving an example of how this would have been possible for Recruit X.


EDIT: Realized the question was only in regards to being academically ineligible.

Except we know that his SAT scores were fine

[Marquette84]

Maybe Buzz bent the rules.  Maybe the conditions were verbal, not written.  Maybe it was an unwritten understanding between everyone in the room that day.

You can't argue that Buzz acted unethically by dishonoring an NLI, yet was ethical enough to not attempt to place "conditions" on an NLI.  The former is definitely slimier than the latter.

I'm not the one arguing that Buzz acted unethically to begin with by adding an improper verbal or unwritten condition to the NLI.

[Marquette84]

Seems you are quick to come up with reasons as to why we didn't "screw" Saunders over with our timing of his release, and giving Crean/MU the benefit of the doubt in Saunders case - but are assuming the worst to paint the release of Newbill in the worst of light.  We all know Saunders would have gotten in to MU as he was admitted to Duquense almost immediately - therefore he had necessary SAT scores to not be a non-qualifier..and to say that we only admit athletes that would make it inot MU without their athletic talents is very naive.  We all konw high major athletes get the benefit of the doubt when it comes ot meeting admissions requirements..

Why don't you provide a plausible explanation on what happened with Newbill that doesn't include some improper behavior.

So far, you're saying that think it was not unethical to dishonor Newbill's NLI because Buzz created a side agreement that allowed him to do so.

But that side agreement is unethical itself, because the NLI prohibits exactly the type of agreement you claim Buzz made with Newbill. 

[MedicineHatSpanker]

Dude, repeatedly misspelling

What colour is the centre of the moulded aluminium armour analysed then criticised by the labourer who endeavoured to preserve the honour of his neighbour who possessed tremendous humour while practising ploughing in his pyjamas without the least pretence or rancour as he reclined in the parlour, recognising the rigour of the heinous rumours so savoured by the would be saviours who craved titbits of valorous behaviour?

[NersEllenson]

Why don't you provide a plausible explanation on what happened with Newbill that doesn't include some improper behavior.

So far, you're saying that think it was not unethical to dishonor Newbill's NLI because Buzz created a side agreement that allowed him to do so.

But that side agreement is unethical itself, because the NLI prohibits exactly the type of agreement you claim Buzz made with Newbill. 

If you believe every letter of the law in college basketball recruiting is being followed to a "T," and interpreted in the most strict way - you are naive.  All high-major schools push the envelop about as far as they can.    Villanova has had a number of players go to prep school.  Teams oversign.  Kids transfer and break their initial commitment to universities.  Buzz had to replace Taylor and Williams who were let out of their LOI's.

I'm still waiting for you to address the state of the Indiana basketball program currently, against the Marquette program.  Both Buzz and TC have had the same amount of time to impact their program - why such a disparity in talent?   I mean Buzz doesn't have 6-8 Top 100 players in his own state, nor is Marqueette the flagship program of the state of Wisconsin - how is he assembling Top 100/Juco 1st team All American/Player of the Year talent up and down the roster, and Tom Crean can't do that at Indiana?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You've written this several times so I have to ask, do you mean to say "Honor THY commitments," Mr. Holier-than-thou?  I hope so because "Honor THEY commitments" doesn't make any sense.  I also hope so because it makes you look like even more of a jackass for calling out Jamil on his mistake regarding MU's name when you don't know the difference between "thy" and "they."

Fair enough.  Yes, it was meant to be "thy", not "they".  One letter typo.   Hopefully Jamil understands MU means Marquette University, unless we give him some Michigan stuff where he might say University of Marquette.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm still waiting for you to address the state of the Indiana basketball program currently, against the Marquette program.  Both Buzz and TC have had the same amount of time to impact their program - why such a disparity in talent?   I mean Buzz doesn't have 6-8 Top 100 players in his own state, nor is Marqueette the flagship program of the state of Wisconsin - how is he assembling Top 100/Juco 1st team All American/Player of the Year talent up and down the roster, and Tom Crean can't do that at Indiana?

I'll take a shot at that, even though it wasn't directed at me.

Buzz inherited 4 players that ended up in the top 10 all-time in MU scoring, a 3 straight NCAA tournament team, etc, etc

Crean inherited one varsity player that was a walk-on the year before and averaged less than 3 minutes per game and scored less than 30 points his entire career.

MU isn't on probation.  IU is.   The IU Administration, from the President on down to Fred Glass, laid out exactly who IU could go after and who they couldn't.  That mean a lot of players in the first few years were off limits to them.  There would be no quick fixes, plain and simple.

So that's for starters.   You can go from there if you wish, but to ignore that is about as silly as it gets.  Don't get me wrong, Crean's a d-bag but your question is bizarre....really, it is.

[Lennys Tap]

Except we know that his SAT scores were fine

Correct. Damien Saunders' SAT scores were fine. Tragedy what Crean did to that young man. I'm sure the leader of the TC lynch mob was quick to call him out for ruining the kid's life. Oh, I forgot. There was no lynch mob back then. You had yet to experience your epiphany.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Correct. Damien Saunders' SAT scores were fine. Tragedy what Crean did to that young man. I'm sure the leader of the TC lynch mob was quick to call him out for ruining the kid's life. Oh, I forgot. There was no lynch mob back then. You had yet to experience your epiphany.

Lenny, there was a point in my life that I thought taxing the hell out of the rich, getting obliterated drunk, cheering for the Lakers and Dodgers, supporting Mike Dukakis and abortion were good ideas, too.   People change opinions.  If you happen to be really rigid and never change your mind, my hat's off too you.

He (Crean) should have honored the commitment.  All that being said, the two scenarios are not the same, nevertheless we should not be kicking people out of their NLI's before they have a chance to prove themselves.

 
And Newbill's SAT scores were fine as well.

[Dr. Blackheart]

If you happen to be really rigid...my hat's off to you.

Actually, if that lasts more than 4 hours,  I am pretty sure that is a side effect you should consult your physician about.