Endless Internet Argument - A Summertime Tradition

[hairy worthen]

Getting good mileage out of this aren't you chicos. Cant wait until Buzz makes an actual mistake.

[4everwarriors]

Actually there's about a 0% chance of that.  Anyone who'd seen both of them play, as Crean had, knew who was the better player after about 15 minutes.  Saunders was a 4-Star recruit according to Scout.com, and he was considered by most to be one of the best prep schools players in the country, Hazel was a 2-Star recruit according to that same service.  Outside of Marquette, Saunders had interest from places like Tennesee, Providence, Cincinatti, and Georgia.  Hazel had interest from Lehigh, Hofstra, UMass, and Rhode Island.  It was obvious to basically anyone with any knowledge of the two, who was the more talented prospect back then.

Actually you're giving Crean far too much credit. Anyone who's observed TC over the years, knows his skills in evaluating talent leave much to be desired.

[PE8983]

Saunders ended up at Duquesne - not exactly a hotbed of bball.  Only other offer indicated on Scout is Providence.  Obviously, not many people were very impressed with his skills.  Afterall, he was qualified academically.

[mu-rara]

Chicos,

You have numerous  contacts at MU, (you worked there, didn't you), and throughout the sports world.  Can't you find the real story?  

At this point, nobody, including you, knows what really went on.  It is disingenuous to make statements of fact, that are nothing more than speculation.

I am not going to question your MU fandom.  Posters that I respect have backed you up on that.  Good Lord, this "shine the sh*tty light" on Buzz thing has changed the way I read your posts.  You used to be one of the more sane posters, but you go so far out of your way to make Buzz look bad, it's reflecting poorly on you.  It has gone way beyond waiting 5 years to make a judgement...it seems that you are looking for reasons he is failing already.

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos,

You have numerous  contacts at MU, (you worked there, didn't you), and throughout the sports world.  Can't you find the real story?  

At this point, nobody, including you, knows what really went on.  It is disingenuous to make statements of fact, that are nothing more than speculation.

I am not going to question your MU fandom.  Posters that I respect have backed you up on that.  Good Lord, this "shine the sh*tty light" on Buzz thing has changed the way I read your posts.  You used to be one of the more sane posters, but you go so far out of your way to make Buzz look bad, it's reflecting poorly on you.  It has gone way beyond waiting 5 years to make a judgement...it seems that you are looking for reasons he is failing already.

Sighs, LOLs and protestations of innocence should be soon to follow. But belittling a teenager over a silly misstatement (University of instead of University) and then having the hubris and unmitigated gall to suggest his attack is somehow a defense of MU intellectual and academic standards is beyond the pale. The agenda-o-meter is through the roof.

[NersEllenson]

The dead horse has been beaten but:

What would prevent a high major program, who was already at the limit with scholarships - to have signed DJ this summer, and then have him head off to prep school?  Could a school not choose to do that?  If Marquette were to have oversigned with Wilson, Newbill could have been sent to prep school - so why could the same scenario not apply to Newbill now -at a different high major program?

[Marquette84]

That's easy to say after it was determined who would have the better college career.  There's a good chance TC didn't know who was the better player. 

Sort of like Buzz not knowing whether Vander Blue or DJ Newbill will have the better college career, right?

--Hazel averaged 8 points & 8 boards his senior year for a HS team that went 19-8.
--Saunders averaged 22 points and 16 boards his senior year in HS.  His team won 3 straight Conn. HS championships.  He then went on to average 8 points/10 boards for the national prep champion team.

Boy, a real head scratcher.  Hard to tell which player might be better in college.

Neither were highly rated out of high school.

Wrong.

Saunders was the #6 rated prep, Hazel was the #56.   
Scout had Saunders a 4-star player and the 22nd rated PF.  Hazel was a 2-star, not ranked in the top 75 PFs.

Since you're so smart, why don't you tell me why TC waited so long to dump Saunders, when he knew James wasn't going to the draft back in early June or so?

One more time:  Crean didn't dump Saunders--the MU admissions office declined to admit him to the university.

But since you're so smart and think Crean did control the admissions office, why wouldn't he have denied admission to Hazel and admitted Saunders? 

The logical answer here is that Crean had no choice in the matter.  If Saunders and Hazel had both been admitted, Crean would have had no choice other than to not renew one of the returning players scholarships.

[MerrittsMustache]

Typo?    

Honor they commitment, I don't care who the coach is.  Crean.  Wooden.  Buzz.  If you don't want the kid, don't accept the NLI.  The irony is, if TC was a complete prick, he would have dumped Hazel and kept Saunders, who was the much better player...sort of like Buzz just did.  Addition by subtraction.  But it doesn't matter, don't do it.  What happened to Marquette University alums that were taught the basics of ethics and morality?  HONOR THEY COMMITMENTS!

You've written this several times so I have to ask, do you mean to say "Honor THY commitments," Mr. Holier-than-thou?  I hope so because "Honor THEY commitments" doesn't make any sense.  I also hope so because it makes you look like even more of a jackass for calling out Jamil on his mistake regarding MU's name when you don't know the difference between "thy" and "they."

[Skatastrophy]

You've written this several times so I have to ask, do you mean to say "Honor THY commitments," Mr. Holier-than-thou?  I hope so because "Honor THEY commitments" doesn't make any sense.  I also hope so because it makes you look like even more of a jackass for calling out Jamil on his mistake regarding MU's name when you don't know the difference between "thy" and "they."

Dude... you can't win an internet argument by being the spelling police.

[MerrittsMustache]

Dude... you can't win an internet argument by being the spelling police.

Dude, I'm not concerned with winning an internet argument. I was merely pointing out the irony in Chicos bashing Jamil for misspeaking while at the same time repeatedly misspelling a simple 3-letter word. Is that acceptable, bro?

[reinko]

Dude, I'm not concerned with winning an internet argument. I was merely pointing out the irony in Chicos bashing Jamil for misspeaking while at the same time repeatedly misspelling a simple 3-letter word. Is that acceptable, bro?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/284401/

[NersEllenson]

Sort of like Buzz not knowing whether Vander Blue or DJ Newbill will have the better college career, right?

--Hazel averaged 8 points & 8 boards his senior year for a HS team that went 19-8.
--Saunders averaged 22 points and 16 boards his senior year in HS.  His team won 3 straight Conn. HS championships.  He then went on to average 8 points/10 boards for the national prep champion team.

Boy, a real head scratcher.  Hard to tell which player might be better in college.


Wrong.

Saunders was the #6 rated prep, Hazel was the #56.   
Scout had Saunders a 4-star player and the 22nd rated PF.  Hazel was a 2-star, not ranked in the top 75 PFs.


One more time:  Crean didn't dump Saunders--the MU admissions office declined to admit him to the university.

But since you're so smart and think Crean did control the admissions office, why wouldn't he have denied admission to Hazel and admitted Saunders? 

The logical answer here is that Crean had no choice in the matter.  If Saunders and Hazel had both been admitted, Crean would have had no choice other than to not renew one of the returning players scholarships.

Do you ever participate in a thread that does not pertain to Tom Crean?  It seems the only threads you contribute to are one's that get into the Tom Crean discussion - or a thread that sings the praises of Buzz Williams - which you attempt to discredit.  Just curious

[Marquette84]

Do you ever participate in a thread that does not pertain to Tom Crean?  It seems the only threads you contribute to are one's that get into the Tom Crean discussion - or a thread that sings the praises of Buzz Williams - which you attempt to discredit.  Just curious

In this post, I corrected two factual errors.

1.  Tom Crean pulled the scholarship from Saunders (he did not--it was the admissions office that failed to admit Saunders).

2.  The error that Saunders and Hazel were both equally low rated players (the fact is that Saunders was rated significantly higher).

I think its telling that you cannot offer any fact-based counter argument.  Instead, you have to turn this into a personal attack on me for pointing out the facts.

My question to you is why you cannot engage in any sort of reasonable fact-based discussion on Buzz or Crean without it reflexively turning into some manifestation of a pro-Buzz/anti-Crean bias.

You want me to make a post that doesn't include Crean:  Here it is:

1.  Buzz should never have offered Newbill in the first place--we needed bigs.  
2.  Buzz should not have offered any side deals involving prep school knowing that the LOI does not allow such additions.
3.  Buzz's action may have a detrimental effect on recruiting if players/coaches believe that we won't honor our LOI.
4.  By locking up Newbill under an LOI, it definitely hurt Newbill's opportunities to pursue other teams and vice-versa.  

[NersEllenson]

You want me to make a post that doesn't include Crean:  Here it is:

1.  Buzz should never have offered Newbill in the first place--we needed bigs.  
2.  Buzz should not have offered any side deals involving prep school knowing that the LOI does not allow such additions.
3.  Buzz's action may have a detrimental effect on recruiting if players/coaches believe that we won't honor our LOI.
4.  By locking up Newbill under an LOI, it definitely hurt Newbill's opportunities to pursue other teams and vice-versa.  

Case in point.  Thank you.  A non-Crean related post that discredits Buzz Williams.  Shocking!!  I understand that you are a staunch Crean guy - no big deal - but you need to give it up.  Where MU and IU are in comparison to each other right now is shocking.  The talent differential at MU compared to IU (now that we can look at this with all of Crean's recruits being gone) is shocking.  What Williams has recruited to MU compared to what Crean has landed at IU in the same timeframe on the job is shocking.  You would think with Crean being at, It's Indiana, It's Indiana..he'd have the major advantage of being at a Top 5 all-time program...but nope..his program is floundering.  I await your excuse-laden reply as to why it was so hard to rebuild IU...and know you will mentione the NCAA violations that occured under the previous regime and that 1 scholarship was revoked.

[reinko]

Case in point.  Thank you.  A non-Crean related post that discredits Buzz Williams.  Shocking!!  I understand that you are a staunch Crean guy - no big deal - but you need to give it up.  Where MU and IU are in comparison to each other right now is shocking.  The talent differential at MU compared to IU (now that we can look at this with all of Crean's recruits being gone) is shocking.  What Williams has recruited to MU compared to what Crean has landed at IU in the same timeframe on the job is shocking.  You would think with Crean being at, It's Indiana, It's Indiana..he'd have the major advantage of being at a Top 5 all-time program...but nope..his program is floundering.  I await your excuse-laden reply as to why it was so hard to rebuild IU...and know you will mentione the NCAA violations that occured under the previous regime and that 1 scholarship was revoked.

Hey Ners, why instead of the TC/Buzz pissing match, respond to 84's four points.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Case in point.  Thank you.  A non-Crean related post that discredits Buzz Williams.  Shocking!!  I understand that you are a staunch Crean guy - no big deal - but you need to give it up.  Where MU and IU are in comparison to each other right now is shocking.  The talent differential at MU compared to IU (now that we can look at this with all of Crean's recruits being gone) is shocking.  What Williams has recruited to MU compared to what Crean has landed at IU in the same timeframe on the job is shocking.  You would think with Crean being at, It's Indiana, It's Indiana..he'd have the major advantage of being at a Top 5 all-time program...but nope..his program is floundering.  I await your excuse-laden reply as to why it was so hard to rebuild IU...and know you will mentione the NCAA violations that occured under the previous regime and that 1 scholarship was revoked.

He's not a staunch TC guy actually.

Now, about the 4 points he made..........

[Litehouse]

1.  Buzz should never have offered Newbill in the first place--we needed bigs.  

I absolutely agree with this and had the same opinion when Newbill's committment came out of nowhere.

[NersEllenson]

Hey Ners, why instead of the TC/Buzz pissing match, respond to 84's four points.

Here's a response:  Hindsight is 20/20 - and I'm not going to complain about how Buzz has handled the MU program since he took over.  Do I like what happened with Newbill, regardless of how you slice it?  No.  Have I said as much?  Yes.

I'm sure if Buzz had it to do all over again, he'd have done it differently.  At the end of the day, the state of MU program, compared to our predecessors program at IU - are night and day..and one is in a nightmare, the other is living in the light with the future looking bright.

As for Crean overrecruiting in the case of Saunders and Hazel - because he "thought" Dominic was going pro - wouldn't you thinkas head coach he should have known if Dominic as going to go pro??

[bma725]

As for Crean overrecruiting in the case of Saunders and Hazel - because he "thought" Dominic was going pro - wouldn't you thinkas head coach he should have known if Dominic as going to go pro??

At the time Saunders signed the LOI, he did know.  But what you know in November often turns out not to be true by the time June rolls around.  No one would have forecasted that Dominic, coming off a freshman year where people were already saying he was a 1st rounder, would struggle the way he did that year....and that changed everything.

[CTWarrior]

As for Crean overrecruiting in the case of Saunders and Hazel - because he "thought" Dominic was going pro - wouldn't you thinkas head coach he should have known if Dominic as going to go pro??

Holy cow!  I don't like Crean too, but how is he supposed to know that when he's got to lock up recruits almost a whole year before the decision is made?  

You want to say Crean shouldn't have recruited a player of Hazel's calibre or something, I'll listen, but he had an obligation to allow for the possibility of DJ's departure since at the time it was a real possibility.  Heck, when Saunders signed he HAD TO KNOW we were one over the limit and DJ returning to MU was a real possibility.  

That is not the same as signing a guy to a NLI with the idea that you may not honor it if someone better comes along.

[jmayer1]

Holy cow!  I don't like Crean too, but how is he supposed to know that when he's got to lock up recruits almost a whole year before the decision is made?  

You want to say Crean shouldn't have recruited a player of Hazel's calibre or something, I'll listen, but he had an obligation to allow for the possibility of DJ's departure since at the time it was a real possibility.  Heck, when Saunders signed he HAD TO KNOW we were one over the limit and DJ returning to MU was a real possibility.  

That is not the same as signing a guy to a NLI with the idea that you may not honor it if someone better comes along.

How is knowing that a guy might not enter the draft and you won't be able to attend a school any different from knowing that the school might bring in someone over you and you won't be able to attend, from a recruit's perspective?

84-Would you have been ok with Buzz bringing in Wilson and then letting go of a guy like Fulce instead?  Did you think that was wrong when Crean was going to do it, as you stated previously that he would have been forced to do if Saunders would have been "accepted"?  Did you raise such contempt against Crean when he signed Saunders and it became apparent something was going to have to happen with the roster after it was known DJ wasn't going to go pro and prior to Saunder's arrest and him not being "admitted" to Marquette?

For the record, I don't like what happened with Newbill. I think Buzz took a flyer and then continued to recruit over him. Whether this was communicated to DJ, I don't know and probably none of us ever will.  I would hope Buzz wouldn't put himself into situations like this in the future.  I also thought it wasn't right when Crean oversigned and Saunders was conveniently not able to get into Marquette.

[CTWarrior]

How is knowing that a guy might not enter the draft and you won't be able to attend a school any different from knowing that the school might bring in someone over you and you won't be able to attend, from a recruit's perspective?

When Saunders signed the LOI, if he could count to 14, had to know that he was the 14th player when 13 were allowed and there is no way to perceive it any other way. 

I don't believe Newbill knew we were going to try to recruit over him or at least did not understood it was a strong possibility because if he did, he has NO reason to sign that LOI.  None.  Why would someone voluntarily say, "Even though I don't have to, I am going to stop looking at other schools, many of them good schools, because this school promises they will take me only if someone better doesn't come along.  If someone does come along I will have to scramble for the best situation left."  What was he worried about, that someone else would jump ahead of him for the same crappy deal?

[MerrittsMustache]

How is knowing that a guy might not enter the draft and you won't be able to attend a school any different from knowing that the school might bring in someone over you and you won't be able to attend, from a recruit's perspective?

84-Would you have been ok with Buzz bringing in Wilson and then letting go of a guy like Fulce instead?  Did you think that was wrong when Crean was going to do it, as you stated previously that he would have been forced to do if Saunders would have been "accepted"?  Did you raise such contempt against Crean when he signed Saunders and it became apparent something was going to have to happen with the roster after it was known DJ wasn't going to go pro and prior to Saunder's arrest and him not being "admitted" to Marquette?

For the record, I don't like what happened with Newbill. I think Buzz took a flyer and then continued to recruit over him. Whether this was communicated to DJ, I don't know and probably none of us ever will.  I would hope Buzz wouldn't put himself into situations like this in the future.  I also thought it wasn't right when Crean oversigned and Saunders was conveniently not able to get into Marquette.

+1

Fortunately for TC and Marquette, Saunders got himself into trouble and made the "who to cut" decision easy. If Saunders didn't get arrested, who's to say that Hazel wouldn't have been the odd man out? It seems likely that he would have been considering Saunders was a much more highly touted recruit.

The bottom line is that as long as coaches are allowed to oversign and allowed to rescind NLIs, stuff like this is going to happen. That doesn't mean it's "right" (from a moral perspective), but if it's within the rules, coaches are going to do it and I don't really blame them for it.

[MerrittsMustache]

When Saunders signed the LOI, if he could count to 14, had to know that he was the 14th player when 13 were allowed and there is no way to perceive it any other way. 

I don't believe Newbill knew we were going to try to recruit over him or at least did not understood it was a strong possibility because if he did, he has NO reason to sign that LOI.  None.  Why would someone voluntarily say, "Even though I don't have to, I am going to stop looking at other schools, many of them good schools, because this school promises they will take me only if someone better doesn't come along.  If someone does come along I will have to scramble for the best situation left."  What was he worried about, that someone else would jump ahead of him for the same crappy deal?

If Saunders knew there was a good chance he'd never play for MU, considering he was scholarship #14, why would he have signed? Presumably because he was under the impression someone else was going to go.

[CTWarrior]

If Saunders didn't get arrested, who's to say that Hazel wouldn't have been the odd man out? It seems likely that he would have been considering Saunders was a much more highly touted recruit.

Here I agree with you.  If someone other than the last man to sign had been jettisoned by Crean, it would poor form, unless there were extenuating circumstances like an arrest, etc.