Endless Internet Argument - A Summertime Tradition

[77ncaachamps]

Saunders wasn't technically "recruited over" by any particular player.  We were over signed with the rumor being Crean thought DJ was going pro after that year, which obviously didn't happen.  We were short one spot and Saunders got the short straw.  Whether it was the academic reasons we were given, his legal issues, or a last-in/first-out policy, who knows.  Either way, the decision wasn't based on basketball ability, because we kept Hazel and let Saunders go.

[/b]

And THAT was a HUGE mistake.

[Lennys Tap]

When it was decided to end the Saunders recruiting,(a mistake, given his play for Duquesne) who did MU recruit "over" him?

It was decided in August (just before school started). Technically I guess we recruited D James over him as Saunders was slated to take DJ's slot if/when he went pro.

[Benny B]

I further think that people *want* to believe the "violation issue" to make themselves feel better about what the truth really is....we recruited over a guy.

If "recruited over" means replacing one student-athlete with another, regardless of the reason the replaced is leaving the program, then you're absolutely right... Buzz "recruited over" DJ Newbill, just like he "recruited over" Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams two years ago.

[NersEllenson]

I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

While I realize this was an attempt to be funny - the reality is that Jamil Wilson is a big-time talent, and big time talent has a lot to do with teams making Final Fours.  The addition of Wilson increases the likelihood MU can make a Final Four, and also increases the liklihood MU sends another player to the NBA -both of which increase the chances of MU being able to continue to recruit well, if not better than it has already  under Buzz, which increases our chances of becoming a special program again - much like we were under Al in the 1970s.  Lots of extrapolation, yes - but in the long run, this move will probably help to pay many of the dividends mentioned above.  DJ wound up just fine, and hopefully as Buzz continues to raise the profile of the program - MU will become a destination program, to where we don't have to take fliers on players..longshot prospects...and be put in this position again.

[4everwarriors]

Crean was never able to recruit over his players, though he tried. Whomever he brought was inferior to the said player who was Creaned.

[Lennys Tap]

Saunders wasn't technically "recruited over" by any particular player.  We were over signed with the rumor being Crean thought DJ was going pro after that year, which obviously didn't happen.  We were short one spot and Saunders got the short straw.  Whether it was the academic reasons we were given, his legal issues, or a last-in/first-out policy, who knows.  Either way, the decision wasn't based on basketball ability, because we kept Hazel and let Saunders go.

While the decision wasn't made on basketball ability it was certainly a basketball decision. Hazel was from St Benedicts (coached by Bob Hurley's kid) No way Crean was going to burn that bridge while it was still being built.

[bma725]

While the decision wasn't made on basketball ability it was certainly a basketball decision. Hazel was from St Benedicts (coached by Bob Hurley's kid) No way Crean was going to burn that bridge while it was still being built.

Hazel was from Blair Academy, not St. Benedicts.  Burke and Cubi were the St. Benedict's recruits.  Further, if the school was the issue, given that Saunders was a Notre Dame Prep kid, and ND puts out far more talent, he would have been the one that stuck around, not Hazel.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hazel was from Blair Academy, not St. Benedicts.  Burke and Cubi were the St. Benedict's recruits.  Further, if the school was the issue, given that Saunders was a Notre Dame Prep kid, and ND puts out far more talent, he would have been the one that stuck around, not Hazel.

Exactly

[Lennys Tap]

Hazel was from Blair Academy, not St. Benedicts.  Burke and Cubi were the St. Benedict's recruits.  Further, if the school was the issue, given that Saunders was a Notre Dame Prep kid, and ND puts out far more talent, he would have been the one that stuck around, not Hazel.

I stand corrected. Thanks for setting the record (and my faulty recollection) straight.

[GGGG]

If "recruited over" means replacing one student-athlete with another, regardless of the reason the replaced is leaving the program, then you're absolutely right... Buzz "recruited over" DJ Newbill, just like he "recruited over" Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams two years ago.

No "recruiting over" implies that MU made the decision to take someone else over another.  Taylor and Williams made the decisions to ask out of their NLIs.

[Nukem2]

This thread has become ridiculous.  Just a lot of self-proclaimed "experts" making specualtive guesses at the "truth".  Time to go golfing or play some tennis, boys and girls.

[mu_hilltopper]

I felt bad until I found out Jamil Wilson was bringing us to the Final Four.  Now I feel great.

Should have used teal .. the sarcasm clearly flew over the "ends justify the means" group.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This thread has become ridiculous.  Just a lot of self-proclaimed "experts" making specualtive guesses at the "truth".  Time to go golfing or play some tennis, boys and girls.

The problem is some of those folks who don't wish to play tennis, are speculating on national platforms like ESPN.  Speculation comes as a result of actions like those Marquette took.  That's the risk.  Don't want the speculation or the accusations?  Simple, honor the NLI's you accept.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I see the representatives of both political parties ripping into the other side whenever there's any suggested impropriety. When it's pointed out that "their guy" did the same thing six months ago they are the first to say "That was wrong too". But when "their guy" was in the cross hairs they defended him.

If you can show me some evidence of your moral outrage towards TC DURING the Saunders incident I'll gladly cede you the moral high ground here. But if defense and acquiescence in one case has turned into shock and disappointment in another it just looks like a political operative reciting talking points.

I've asked you probably 10 times now, do you think we should honor LOI's? It's really a simple answer that requires either a yes or a no.  There is no gray area.

If you can answer that question, I'd feel all warm and fuzzy.

To answer your question, which I already did almost a week plus ago (and even provided you with a link that showed the discussion of Saunders leaving posts on MU Scoop at the time).

[ChicosBailBonds]

While I realize this was an attempt to be funny - the reality is that Jamil Wilson is a big-time talent, and big time talent has a lot to do with teams making Final Fours. 

Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?   

Apparently he thinks he is attending the latter and not the former (his words, not mine).  We might want to get him a media guide or something so he shows up at the correct school.

[wadesworld]

This thread has become ridiculous.  Just a lot of self-proclaimed "experts" making specualtive guesses at the "truth".  Time to go golfing or play some tennis, boys and girls.

+1...million.  Some of these people are ridiculous.  Is one of you Buzz?  If not, you're wrong.  Seriously.

[NersEllenson]

Should have used teal .. the sarcasm clearly flew over the "ends justify the means" group.

I caught on to the sarcastic attempt you were making - and realized it was an attempt to be sarcastic and funny - which fell flat, by the way.  Waiting for you to rebut what I'd posted earlier about Wilson being a program changing type of recruit that could have serious upside ramifcations to bringing on board...

[NersEllenson]

Is he going to take Marquette University to the Final Four or the University of Marquette?   

Apparently he thinks he is attending the latter and not the former (his words, not mine).  We might want to get him a media guide or something so he shows up at the correct school.

Lame Chicos.  You are better than this - I think.  As has been said many times, I don't think anyone likes what happened in the Newbill recruitment - but both parites probably share some blame - and for DJ..it's probably better off for him that he play at Southern Miss and have a chance at real playing time..as it probably was going to be real tough for him to get at MU.  Additionally, why would LaSalle ask DJ to redshirt?  And why no other high major programs offer DJ - if he was good enough..room would have been made for him at at Top program.  The moral is hopefully no more "flier" type of recruits.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Should have used teal .. the sarcasm clearly flew over the "ends justify the means" group.

No offense but I think we -- if I am in fact a part of the "ends justify the means" group -- clearly understood the sarcasm.  You don't need teal to make that clear.  Just chose to ignore it and use it as support to further advance "our" evil agenda.

[Marquette84]

There is an apples and oranges comparison between Saunders and Newbill   

Saunders was turned down by the MU admissions office.  Newbill wasn't.  So technically, there was no "decision" to be made on Saunders--he didn't qualify  for admission.  End of story. 

Newbill was a different situation. His application was not rejected by MU.  In fact, it was not even due to the university yet. 

Whatever one wants to say about what might have happened if Newbill completed and submitted his application, the fact of the matter is that he never had the chance. 

And nobody here knows with certainty what the admissions office would do had they received his application. This whole story is completely different if the MU admissions office had issued an up-or-down decision on Newbill.  If they said no, then Newbill is not here--just like Saunders.   

If they said yes, however, then MU would have had to find another way to make room for Wilson--the only choice is probably that they choose not to renew a returning player's scholarship.

I think its telling that in the month or so this topic has been discussed, nobody has been able to name another incoming LOI player with any team in D1 who has had his scholarship similarly pulled prior to the school making an admissions decision. 

[bilsu]

It is over, get over it.

[mu_hilltopper]

I caught on to the sarcastic attempt you were making - and realized it was an attempt to be sarcastic and funny - which fell flat, by the way.  Waiting for you to rebut what I'd posted earlier about Wilson being a program changing type of recruit that could have serious upside ramifcations to bringing on board...

It wasn't an attempt to be funny in the least.  It showed how brazen some people are with HOW they want to win, as evidenced by at least one poster agreeing.

I won't be refuting your commentary about Jamil because you are (hopefully) correct.  And how good Jamil is, matters how, exactly?   Are you trying to make the point that as long as we swap for a really good player, whatever MU needs to do to free up a scholarship is ok? 

I mean, it's not like Newbill ended up at a school that hasn't sniffed the NCAAs in almost 20 seasons.

[wildbillsb]

No double standard.  Crean shouldn't have done it and neither should Buzz.

That argument by Robby in Indiana is a joke, it's a little kids argument.  "But but but, Billy did it so I should be able to do it".  I'd expect nothing less from Robby \ Canadian Dimes. 

Marquette University SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTING NATIONAL LETTERS OF INTENT unless we plan on honoring them.  I don't care who the coach is.  PERIOD!  Do what is right.  If MU didn't accept his NLI, this doesn't happen.  If MU honored his NLI, this doesn't happen.  MU chose, instead, to take his NLI and then not honor it, and that's why the media, other schools, and yes....many MU alums....are pissed and taking shots at MU.

Marquette has only themselves to blame.  HONOR YOUR COMMITMENTS or don't make them. 

Amen, brother.  Amen.  Honoring a commitment to another human being seems a lot like Cura Personalis to me.

wildbillsb

[AZWarrior]

Man, this is turning into a long thread.

I haven't read every entry, but has anyone brought up Karl Rove's involvement?

[GGGG]

Well, believe it or not, I for one don't feel all that bad about it so that's not my motivation at all.  Good theory though.

Well...then I don't know what to say.  I mean, I want MU to honor its commitments.  That is what I learned when a student there...that honoring commitments no matter how difficult that might be is the *right* thing to do. 

Now, I know this isn't as black and white as some have portrayed it, but honestly, this entire episode makes me feel slimey.