Recruiting as of 5/15/24

[MUfan12]

You can say a lot of positive things about Shaka's culture, but the fact that 8 players transferred last year, and one more this year, suggests that retention ain't one of them.

This is unintentionally hilarious.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

They're sticking around because they see dramatically improved chances at playing time--not because we have a "culture of retention." And based on the type of players Shaka is targeting, next year and in '24 we could see an entirely different situation.

Shaka didn't have a lot of transfers at Texas or VCU either.

[Elonsmusk]

You can say a lot of positive things about Shaka's culture, but the fact that 8 players transferred last year, and one more this year, suggests that retention ain't one of them.

Well, Greg is transferring this year. That aside, the reason we don't have as many transfers this year as last year is that:
1. We don't have a coaching change
2. Players don't perceive an inability to crack the rotation for playing time
3. Shaka hasn't overrecurited anyone yet (I don't see any current players scared off by King, Jones or Ross).

I don't see any of the 8 returning players that would think at this point that they're unable to crack the lineup. Look at it player by player:

- Kam:  Got significant minutes last year, likely to be a big part of the upcoming season.  Shaka has already said he could be one of MU's all-time leading scorers.
- Kolek: Shaka's love for Tyler is obvious.
- Mitchell: Got a lot of playing time as a frosh, and emerged as one of the better defenders.
- Oso: Part of the main rotation, and no obvious challenger to send him to the bench.
- O-Max: Ditto
- Keeyan: Paid his dues as a redshirt and sees minutes available with Kur's departure and little roster competition for bigs. Plus, he practiced every day with tht team, so he knows where he stands relative to Oso and Kur.
- Joplin: Got decent minutes (and they increased toward the end of the year) and shows every sign that he'll get a lot of Lewis' minutes.
- Ellis: Paid dues as the last man on the bench, and sees a good chance to crack the lineup with Elliott and Morsell, leaving.   

And I don't think any of these guys view Gold, Chase, or Sean Jones as a long-term threat--they've all been freshmen--they know what the HS to D1 transition is like.  They've met these guys and probably played against them during the official (and unofficial) visits.  And to the extent that Wrightsil is a threat, he's only there for a single season.

So that leaves the question as to why would any of these guys transfer now, after spending a year learning the system and are all on the verge of substantial playing time or nobody coming in that could be perceived as an imminent threat? 

They're sticking around because they see dramatically improved chances at playing time--not because we have a "culture of retention." And based on the type of players Shaka is targeting, next year and in '24 we could see an entirely different situation.

You're the nutjob who rode Tom Crean's jock, while trashing Buzz.  Now you try to low key take a shot at Shaka.  WTF?

[BrewCity83]

They're sticking around because they see dramatically improved chances at playing time--not because we have a "culture of retention." And based on the type of players Shaka is targeting, next year and in '24 we could see an entirely different situation.

Um, that is a big part of the culture of retention.  The fact that nobody feels buried on the bench.  That's the culture Shaka is building.

[bilsu]

I am very happy that none of Shaka's recruits have transferred. I believe you build a team by developing players. Wojo and Buzz had to many transfer outs.

[Uncle Rico]

I am very happy that none of Shaka's recruits have transferred. I believe you build a team by developing players. Wojo and Buzz had to many transfer outs.

I agree with this and thought of all of Wojo’s shortcomings, his constant roster fluctuations as a new coach undid any good he may have been doing

[brewcity77]

You can say a lot of positive things about Shaka's culture, but the fact that 8 players transferred last year, and one more this year, suggests that retention ain't one of them.

This is patently ridiculous. The building of the culture starts with the players he brings in. None of those players were recruited to Marquette by Shaka.

In his 6 years at Texas, Shaka had 4 players he recruited transfer out. Those were Jacob Young, James Banks, Elijah Mitrou-Long, and Will Baker. All of those were players that played less than 20 mpg. So he had 4 players he recruited transfer in 6 years, and none of them were playing starter minutes. At Marquette, he hasn't had any of the players he recruited transfer out yet.

If we see Joplin, Ellis, and Mitchell hit the portal by the end of the week, and Kam and Oso follow next year, then maybe you have a point. But right now, this is completely unfounded.

[jfp61]

This is patently ridiculous. The building of the culture starts with the players he brings in. None of those players were recruited to Marquette by Shaka.

In his 6 years at Texas, Shaka had 4 players he recruited transfer out. Those were Jacob Young, James Banks, Elijah Mitrou-Long, and Will Baker. All of those were players that played less than 20 mpg. So he had 4 players he recruited transfer in 6 years, and none of them were playing starter minutes. At Marquette, he hasn't had any of the players he recruited transfer out yet.

If we see Joplin, Ellis, and Mitchell hit the portal by the end of the week, and Kam and Oso follow next year, then maybe you have a point. But right now, this is completely unfounded.

If any of those three hit the portal by the end of next week they would fall in the class of guys Shaka has had leave at Texas. I don't think any of them will, or should. I just don't view any of them leaving as a big deal in the summer of 2022.

[The Equalizer]

Um, that is a big part of the culture of retention.  The fact that nobody feels buried on the bench.  That's the culture Shaka is building.

First, we do have players buried on the bench. They have hope right now because nearly 50% of the available minutes are going to open up. Why would you transfer away from that? 

Next year, we will have 11 players returning for the following season--maybe 12 depending on how Shaka fills Lewis' scholarship.  And those same 11 or 12 players will be back for the year after that.  There won't be anywhere close to 50% of the minutes opening up.

All I'm saying is that these are two very different situations.  Retaining players after their freshman season when half the minutes are becoming available is a lot easier than retaining them after their sophomore year when there are very few minutes that will become available.

I think we need to wait until we see how many of the 11 or 12 players on the '23 roster return for the '24 season before saying we've got great player retention.



 

 

[brewcity77]

I think we need to wait until we see how many of the 11 or 12 players on the '23 roster return for the '24 season before saying we've got great player retention.

I can buy this, however it is just as important that we wait and see before saying something stupid like...

You can say a lot of positive things about Shaka's culture...retention ain't one of them.

[avid1010]

I think we need to wait until we see how many of the 11 or 12 players on the '23 roster return for the '24 season before saying we've got great player retention.
 

but we can point to last year of evidence that he doesn't have great player retention? 

obviously...one year doesn't form a trend...and part of me hopes shaka recruits over a few kids on the team...but there is no evidence that he is buzz-cutting anyone at this point. 

[Herman Cain]

You can say a lot of positive things about Shaka's culture, but the fact that 8 players transferred last year, and one more this year, suggests that retention ain't one of them.

Well, Greg is transferring this year. That aside, the reason we don't have as many transfers this year as last year is that:
1. We don't have a coaching change
2. Players don't perceive an inability to crack the rotation for playing time
3. Shaka hasn't overrecurited anyone yet (I don't see any current players scared off by King, Jones or Ross).

I don't see any of the 8 returning players that would think at this point that they're unable to crack the lineup. Look at it player by player:

- Kam:  Got significant minutes last year, likely to be a big part of the upcoming season.  Shaka has already said he could be one of MU's all-time leading scorers.
- Kolek: Shaka's love for Tyler is obvious.
- Mitchell: Got a lot of playing time as a frosh, and emerged as one of the better defenders.
- Oso: Part of the main rotation, and no obvious challenger to send him to the bench.
- O-Max: Ditto
- Keeyan: Paid his dues as a redshirt and sees minutes available with Kur's departure and little roster competition for bigs. Plus, he practiced every day with tht team, so he knows where he stands relative to Oso and Kur.
- Joplin: Got decent minutes (and they increased toward the end of the year) and shows every sign that he'll get a lot of Lewis' minutes.
- Ellis: Paid dues as the last man on the bench, and sees a good chance to crack the lineup with Elliott and Morsell, leaving.   

And I don't think any of these guys view Gold, Chase, or Sean Jones as a long-term threat--they've all been freshmen--they know what the HS to D1 transition is like.  They've met these guys and probably played against them during the official (and unofficial) visits.  And to the extent that Wrightsil is a threat, he's only there for a single season.

So that leaves the question as to why would any of these guys transfer now, after spending a year learning the system and are all on the verge of substantial playing time or nobody coming in that could be perceived as an imminent threat? 

They're sticking around because they see dramatically improved chances at playing time--not because we have a "culture of retention." And based on the type of players Shaka is targeting, next year and in '24 we could see an entirely different situation.

I agree with this analysis

[lawdog77]

I would assume some of our recruits are in here: Boxscores from EYBL
https://nikeeyb.com/eybl-schedule-2/

[The Equalizer]

I can buy this, however it is just as important that we wait and see before saying something stupid like...

I think if you took an honest look at Shaka's track record at Texas, he had a pretty high transfer rate, and I don't think it's stupid to suggest that retention isn't a part of his culture.

In his 6 years at Texas, Shaka had 4 players he recruited transfer out. Those were Jacob Young, James Banks, Elijah Mitrou-Long, and Will Baker. All of those were players that played less than 20 mpg. So he had 4 players he recruited transfer in 6 years, and none of them were playing starter minutes. At Marquette, he hasn't had any of the players he recruited transfer out yet.

I think you are missing:
Tevin Mack (Fr. in 2016)  transferred to Alabama after 2 years
Gerald Liddell (Fr. in 2019) left the team mid-season in 2021, while Shaka was still coaching
Donovan Willaims (Fr. in 2020) entered the portal 3 days before Shaka took the MU job.

During Shaka's entire six year tenure, he only had 20 freshmen total.  And part of that total included:
- 4 were one-and-dones (Allen 2017, Bamba 2018, Hayes 2020, Brown 2021)
- One (Kai Jones) left after two years for the NBA 
- One player (Eric Davis 2016) took money from an agent and was suspended and never played again.

I'm not sure how many transfers Shaka took in addition to Elijah Mitrou-Long, so let's just focus on Freshmen:

If we exclude the 5 NBA players and Davis from the analysis, of the remaining 14 freshmen, 6 of them transferred before Shaka left Texas. And one of the frosh who didn't transfer was a walk-on.

That doesn't strike me as a particularly strong rate of retention while at Texas.  As I said, there's a lot you can say about his culture, I don't think it's fair to say that retention or no transfers is part of it.

[brewcity77]

I think if you took an honest look at Shaka's track record at Texas, he had a pretty high transfer rate, and I don't think it's stupid to suggest that retention isn't a part of his culture.

I think you are missing:
Tevin Mack (Fr. in 2016)  transferred to Alabama after 2 years
Gerald Liddell (Fr. in 2019) left the team mid-season in 2021, while Shaka was still coaching
Donovan Willaims (Fr. in 2020) entered the portal 3 days before Shaka took the MU job.

During Shaka's entire six year tenure, he only had 20 freshmen total.  And part of that total included:
- 4 were one-and-dones (Allen 2017, Bamba 2018, Hayes 2020, Brown 2021)
- One (Kai Jones) left after two years for the NBA 
- One player (Eric Davis 2016) took money from an agent and was suspended and never played again.

I'm not sure how many transfers Shaka took in addition to Elijah Mitrou-Long, so let's just focus on Freshmen:

If we exclude the 5 NBA players and Davis from the analysis, of the remaining 14 freshmen, 6 of them transferred before Shaka left Texas. And one of the frosh who didn't transfer was a walk-on.

That doesn't strike me as a particularly strong rate of retention while at Texas.  As I said, there's a lot you can say about his culture, I don't think it's fair to say that retention or no transfers is part of it.

Tevin Mack was kicked off the team. He transferred only because there was no home for him at Texas. Definitely not counting him. And I think when you are putting as many players in the NBA as you are in the transfer portal, that's probably a good thing, not a bad one. Liddell I did miss, but giving him Williams is similar to you trying to give him Symir Torrence, who announced he was transferring before Shaka was hired.

[The Equalizer]

Tevin Mack was kicked off the team. He transferred only because there was no home for him at Texas. Definitely not counting him. And I think when you are putting as many players in the NBA as you are in the transfer portal, that's probably a good thing, not a bad one. Liddell I did miss, but giving him Williams is similar to you trying to give him Symir Torrence, who announced he was transferring before Shaka was hired.

So if you kick a player off the team, you count him as being retained? 

Fine. Here's the updated math:

Shaka had 20 freshmen over six years
Five went early to the NBA--I'm excluding them because as you point out that's actually a good thing.
One was kicked off the team--per your wishes, we're not counting him either
One took money from an agent and became ineligible--not fair to include him in the stats, I think you'd agree,
And finally, one is like Symir Torrence, so we won't count him.

That leaves 12 players. 5 of them transferred.

If you think that reflects strong culture of retiention, we'll just disagree.  I think it's pretty average.

[rocky_warrior]

average

I chose one word, whatever.  We haven't seen the final transfer #s this year.  School is still in session.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So if you kick a player off the team, you count him as being retained? 

Fine. Here's the updated math:

Shaka had 20 freshmen over six years
Five went early to the NBA--I'm excluding them because as you point out that's actually a good thing.
One was kicked off the team--per your wishes, we're not counting him either
One took money from an agent and became ineligible--not fair to include him in the stats, I think you'd agree,
And finally, one is like Symir Torrence, so we won't count him.

That leaves 12 players. 5 of them transferred.

If you think that reflects strong culture of retiention, we'll just disagree.  I think it's pretty average.

I missing something, if you're not counting Donovan Williams who is the 5th freshman transfer? Jacob Young, James Banks, Will Baker, Gerald Liddell, and ???. Personally, I'd count Williams. I'd count Torrance against Wojo.

I'm also not sure where you got 12. I've got:
Donovan Williams
Will Baker
Jase Febres
Royce Hamm
Jericho Sims
Matt Coleman
Jacob Young
James Banks
Andrew Jones
Kerwin Roach
Brock Cunningham
Kamaka Hepa
Gerald Liddell
Courtney Ramey

14 if Williams counts, 13 if he doesn't. 5/12 is pretty good for avoiding the transfer market. 5/14 or 4/13 is pretty damn good.

You should also take a look at the number of years he got out of each of those guys. Because retention isn't just about keeping them all four years, three and two years are more valuable than one. Every year is another opportunity for a player to transfer. Only one of the guys who transferred did so after a single season and he even stuck around until the following November before deciding to transfer.

Williams: 1.99/4 possible years with Shaka
Baker: 1/4 possible years with Shaka
Ferbes: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Hamm: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Sims: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Coleman: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Young: 2/4 possible years with Shaka
Banks: 2/4 possible years with Shaka
Jones: 5/5 possible years with Shaka
Roach: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Cunningham: 2/2 possible years with Shaka
Hepa: 3/3 possible years with Shaka
Liddell: 2.5/4 possible years with Shaka
Ramey: 3/3 possible years with Shaka
Total: 42.49/53 (80.2%) if Williams counts
40.5/49 (82.7%) if Williams doesn't count.

There's also the players not included in this analysis, the leftovers from Barnes and sit out transfers recruited by Shaka, that were also retained.

The easiest way to put is, Shaka had 7 (8 if Williams counts) transfers, in 6 years at Texas. That's 1.16 (1.33 with Williams) transfers a year. The average for the rest of Division 1 was 17.87 transfers in that span or 2.97 a year. More than double what Shaka averaged.

There is more than enough evidence to say that retention was a strength of Shaka's at Texas. We will see if that plays out at Marquette. So far the evidence is good though I agree that it is too early to tell.

[willie warrior]

Reading the above reminds one of goal post engineers, who are always moving the goalposts.

[Uncle Rico]

Reading the above reminds one of goal post engineers, who are always moving the goalposts.

Thanks, winnie

[brewcity77]

I missing something, if you're not counting Donovan Williams who is the 5th freshman transfer? Jacob Young, James Banks, Will Baker, Gerald Liddell, and ???. Personally, I'd count Williams. I'd count Torrance against Wojo.

I'm also not sure where you got 12. I've got:
Donovan Williams
Will Baker
Jase Febres
Royce Hamm
Jericho Sims
Matt Coleman
Jacob Young
James Banks
Andrew Jones
Kerwin Roach
Brock Cunningham
Kamaka Hepa
Gerald Liddell
Courtney Ramey

14 if Williams counts, 13 if he doesn't. 5/12 is pretty good for avoiding the transfer market. 5/14 or 4/13 is pretty damn good.

You should also take a look at the number of years he got out of each of those guys. Because retention isn't just about keeping them all four years, three and two years are more valuable than one. Every year is another opportunity for a player to transfer. Only one of the guys who transferred did so after a single season and he even stuck around until the following November before deciding to transfer.

Williams: 1.99/4 possible years with Shaka
Baker: 1/4 possible years with Shaka
Ferbes: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Hamm: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Sims: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Coleman: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Young: 2/4 possible years with Shaka
Banks: 2/4 possible years with Shaka
Jones: 5/5 possible years with Shaka
Roach: 4/4 possible years with Shaka
Cunningham: 2/2 possible years with Shaka
Hepa: 3/3 possible years with Shaka
Liddell: 2.5/4 possible years with Shaka
Ramey: 3/3 possible years with Shaka
Total: 42.49/53 (80.2%) if Williams counts
40.5/49 (82.7%) if Williams doesn't count.

There's also the players not included in this analysis, the leftovers from Barnes and sit out transfers recruited by Shaka, that were also retained.

The easiest way to put is, Shaka had 7 (8 if Williams counts) transfers, in 6 years at Texas. That's 1.16 (1.33 with Williams) transfers a year. The average for the rest of Division 1 was 17.87 transfers in that span or 2.97 a year. More than double what Shaka averaged.

There is more than enough evidence to say that retention was a strength of Shaka's at Texas. We will see if that plays out at Marquette. So far the evidence is good though I agree that it is too early to tell.

And Marquette had higher rates under both Buzz and Wojo. For once Willie in right in the sense that Equalizer was trying to manipulate numbers without context while TAMU provided the context to show why those numbers were wrong.

[The Equalizer]

And Marquette had higher rates under both Buzz and Wojo. For once Willie in right in the sense that Equalizer was trying to manipulate numbers without context while TAMU provided the context to show why those numbers were wrong.

The irony here is that TAMU and I are pretty close on the numbers, off by a player or two in the overall count, and he at least made a good faith effort to understand the difference.

At the end of the day, he stated that he thinks a transfer rate of "5/12 (my numbers) is pretty good for avoiding the transfer market. 5/14 or 4/13 (his numbers) is pretty damn good."   I don't think a 30% to 40% transfer rate is all that special in terms of retention, so we just a difference of opinion. 

He didn't "show why those numbers are wrong." He simply has a different opinion on what they mean.

We also agree on my other main point, which is that one year of data at Marquette simply isn't enough to draw any conclusions.

[avid1010]

The irony here is that TAMU and I are pretty close on the numbers, off by a player or two in the overall count, and he at least made a good faith effort to understand the difference.

At the end of the day, he stated that he thinks a transfer rate of "5/12 (my numbers) is pretty good for avoiding the transfer market. 5/14 or 4/13 (his numbers) is pretty damn good."   I don't think a 30% to 40% transfer rate is all that special in terms of retention, so we just a difference of opinion. 

He didn't "show why those numbers are wrong." He simply has a different opinion on what they mean.

We also agree on my other main point, which is that one year of data at Marquette simply isn't enough to draw any conclusions.

But you've said some ridiculous sh1t in the process...like pointing to the transfers from last summer...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The irony here is that TAMU and I are pretty close on the numbers, off by a player or two in the overall count, and he at least made a good faith effort to understand the difference.

At the end of the day, he stated that he thinks a transfer rate of "5/12 (my numbers) is pretty good for avoiding the transfer market. 5/14 or 4/13 (his numbers) is pretty damn good."   I don't think a 30% to 40% transfer rate is all that special in terms of retention, so we just a difference of opinion. 

He didn't "show why those numbers are wrong." He simply has a different opinion on what they mean.

We also agree on my other main point, which is that one year of data at Marquette simply isn't enough to draw any conclusions.

I mean,  I actually showed that your numbers were wrong as you acknowledge. I then continue to show why they are lacking context

[brewcity77]

We also agree on my other main point, which is that one year of data at Marquette simply isn't enough to draw any conclusions.

You already drew that conclusion here:

You can say a lot of positive things about Shaka's culture...retention ain't one of them.