Thoughts and prayers for Oxford, Mi.

[MU82]

NYT ran a "conversation" between liberal Gail Collins and conservative Bret Stephens on several subjects. Here was their exchange on this preventable tragedy ...

Collins:

On guns we've got another heartbreaking mass shooting at a school, this time in Michigan. For a lot of people, it shows how important it is to have laws that require gun owners to store their weapons at home in secure places where underage family members or underage anyone can't get their hands on them. But I'm not seeing Republican leaders call for that kind of very basic, obvious reform. Interpretations, please.

Stephens:

Gail, this latest tragedy is a reminder, as the N.R.A. used to say, that people kill people — and that it's a lot easier to kill people when certain people with unmistakable signs of serious mental illness have access to a gun in an unlocked drawer, along with plenty of ammunition. In a sane world, this shooting would, at a minimum, lead to stronger safe-storage laws, though Republicans in Michigan let just such a law wither without a vote this year. How a party that claims to prize the immanent value of human life when it comes to a zygote can be so ambivalent about safeguarding the lives of innocent teenagers at school is simply beyond me.

[forgetful]

NYT ran a "conversation" between liberal Gail Collins and conservative Bret Stephens on several subjects. Here was their exchange on this preventable tragedy ...

Collins:

On guns we've got another heartbreaking mass shooting at a school, this time in Michigan. For a lot of people, it shows how important it is to have laws that require gun owners to store their weapons at home in secure places where underage family members or underage anyone can't get their hands on them. But I'm not seeing Republican leaders call for that kind of very basic, obvious reform. Interpretations, please.

Stephens:

Gail, this latest tragedy is a reminder, as the N.R.A. used to say, that people kill people — and that it's a lot easier to kill people when certain people with unmistakable signs of serious mental illness have access to a gun in an unlocked drawer, along with plenty of ammunition. In a sane world, this shooting would, at a minimum, lead to stronger safe-storage laws, though Republicans in Michigan let just such a law wither without a vote this year. How a party that claims to prize the immanent value of human life when it comes to a zygote can be so ambivalent about safeguarding the lives of innocent teenagers at school is simply beyond me.

This is one of the reasons why I think it will be hard to convict the parents. They can simply point to the fact that the legislature wouldn't even consider this for a law, yet here they are charging someone for a crime on the same thing they didn't view worthy of establishing a law on.

Also, if it is criminal negligence to not have the gun secured, then aren't the republican legislature's also culpable for not putting in the law?

[MU82]

This is one of the reasons why I think it will be hard to convict the parents. They can simply point to the fact that the legislature wouldn't even consider this for a law, yet here they are charging someone for a crime on the same thing they didn't view worthy of establishing a law on.

Also, if it is criminal negligence to not have the gun secured, then aren't the republican legislature's also culpable for not putting in the law?

Oh, based on everything I've read and heard, I have little hope that those two criminally irresponsible parents will be held accountable.

Maybe a civil suit can at least make them destitute ... though there undoubtedly are congresspeople who would raise money for them. Hell, Gaetz, Gosar and Greene will probably offer them jobs.

[The Sultan]

Oh, based on everything I've read and heard, I have little hope that those two criminally irresponsible parents will be held accountable.

Maybe a civil suit can at least make them destitute ... though there undoubtedly are congresspeople who would raise money for them. Hell, Gaetz, Gosar and Greene will probably offer them jobs.

Again, is there any evidence that those people are supporting the parents?  Why are we inserting this type of stuff into this topic when it doesn't look to be occurring.

[tower912]

Not helping yourself.   

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Again, is there any evidence that those people are supporting the parents?  Why are we inserting this type of stuff into this topic when it doesn't look to be occurring.

Lack of any kind of self control.

[reinko]

Unrelated, Gail Collins, Bret Stephens, Kristof, Rubin, Dowd, Will, Scarborough and the dopes from Congress who they allow to write these pieces can honestly throw themselves down a well.  Op-Ed pages only serve to feed the beast of $$$, and sniping about how the media is biased.  (This also goes for cable news media on both sides, who literally have shows and segments, literally designed to only only focus on "media bias").

These writers and shows are so hilariously out of touch, but again, eye balls and cash, amiright?

[tower912]

Manufactured outrage is profitable.   Common sense and logic, less so.

[forgetful]

Again, is there any evidence that those people are supporting the parents?  Why are we inserting this type of stuff into this topic when it doesn't look to be occurring.

Well Boebert did post a picture of her with her kids (all younger than the Oxford shooter) armed with either AR15's or a handgun, in front of their Christmas tree.

So it would appear at least one of "these people" seem to be perfectly ok with arming young children and letting them have access to weapons/boasting about their "presents".

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Nothing goes together like a holy Christian holiday and weapons of mass murder.

[Pakuni]

Nothing goes together like a holy Christian holiday and weapons of mass murder.

In case you didn't hear, there's a war on Christmas.

[tower912]

Constitutionally protected image and speech.   And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.

[forgetful]

Constitutionally protected image and speech.   And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.

Understood. My comment on it was largely in relation to it as evidence on why it will be so hard to convict the parent. They need to prove that their actions were clearly negligent and far from the norm.

Defense attorney can point to a sitting congress woman arming her younger kids, and emphasize that keeping a firearm unlocked in a bedside drawer is pretty common place in gun-states. And emphasize that it is pretty ordinary for a kid to be looking up "accessories/ammo" for a new present he got (no red flag).

The only remaining argument is not checking his bag, which the school has said there was insufficient evidence to identify him as an immediate threat.

They will argue that this only looks like a red flag in hindsight, and that an ordinary American (e.g. congresswoman) act in a similar manner.

In my opinion, that is why formal laws need to be on the books holding gun owners accountable.

[Uncle Rico]

Constitutionally protected image and speech.   And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.

I have no idea why we have so many school shootings

[tower912]

Yes, you do.  We all do.   But there are many layers and building a consensus to fix them all isn't doable.

[Pakuni]

Constitutionally protected image and speech.   And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.

I'd like to believe it's all performative... but I don't believe it's all performative.

[JWags85]

Well Boebert did post a picture of her with her kids (all younger than the Oxford shooter) armed with either AR15's or a handgun, in front of their Christmas tree.

So it would appear at least one of "these people" seem to be perfectly ok with arming young children and letting them have access to weapons/boasting about their "presents".

Not a gun person, don't own a gun, and am not some fervent supporter of gun rights.  However, this is a major stretch.  I knew plenty of kids who had guns and went shooting or hunting with their parents growing up and they were responsible and educated shooters/hunters.  Partially cause they were indoctrinated to it early on.

Equivocating that equally to some dipshit parents who got their kid a gun (while also exhibiting COPIOUS amounts of poor judgement and lack of emotional intelligence) is just sloppy.  A parent letting their kid have a glass of wine with dinner at home growing up is "perfectly ok" with underage binge drinking or alcohol-based hazing cause hey, they support underage drinking in their house

[tower912]

Agree.

[Jockey]

Not a gun person, don't own a gun, and am not some fervent supporter of gun rights.  However, this is a major stretch.  I knew plenty of kids who had guns and went shooting or hunting with their parents growing up and they were responsible and educated shooters/hunters.  Partially cause they were indoctrinated to it early on.

Equivocating that equally to some dipcrap parents who got their kid a gun (while also exhibiting COPIOUS amounts of poor judgement and lack of emotional intelligence) is just sloppy.  A parent letting their kid have a glass of wine with dinner at home growing up is "perfectly ok" with underage binge drinking or alcohol-based hazing cause hey, they support underage drinking in their house

The kids had weapons of war - aka assault rifles. She was not showing her support for hunting or target shooting. If you want to live in pretend-land, go ahead. But she has a history of being stone cold crazy.

We are talking life and death. Promoting the use assault rifles for underage children is nuts. Every single time no matter who does it. You know that and your 'devil's advocate' comparison is nonsense.

[Hards Alumni]

You guys do realize that she does this stuff to keep her name in the headlines, right?  Without intentionally inflammatory crap like this, she is 100% irrelevant.  She doesn't write legislation, she doesn't have any power whatsoever except for the power that she gets by being a bull in a China shop.

This is her entire job, and every time you get outraged or tune in to see what she does next you give her more power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlKao_Pox5A

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You guys do realize that she does this stuff to keep her name in the headlines, right?  Without intentionally inflammatory crap like this, she is 100% irrelevant.  She doesn't write legislation, she doesn't have any power whatsoever except for the power that she gets by being a bull in a China shop.

This is her entire job, and every time you get outraged or tune in to see what she does next you give her more power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlKao_Pox5A

Yeah, I thinkGreene is genuinely a lunatic, Boebert is just a dumbass but clever enough to ride the rightwing rage machine to endless piles of cash.

[forgetful]

edit: I think I've gone a bit too political so backing off.

[#UnleashSean]

Imagine arguing over gun rights instead of our 3rd world Healthcare system that continually allows this to happen.

[JWags85]

Imagine arguing over gun rights instead of our 3rd world Healthcare system that continually allows this to happen.

Universal healthcare stops school shootings? Good to know.

I think the prevailing attitude toward mental health in this country is an issue, but there are MYRIAD options available.  This kid wouldn't have been put in a positive mental health space with his terrible parents if he lived in Denmark

[Uncle Rico]

Universal healthcare stops school shootings? Good to know.

I think the prevailing attitude toward mental health in this country is an issue, but there are MYRIAD options available.  This kid wouldn't have been put in a positive mental health space with his terrible parents if he lived in Denmark

Mental health care is a deflection by a certain political party when these things happen.  The idea we'd actually address affordable access to mental health care options is preposterous