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Author Topic: 2022 MLB Thread  (Read 103221 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2022, 12:44:29 PM »
Until Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Curt Schilling and the the steroid bunch are in the Hall of Fame, it's a joke.

Period.

How can you have a Hall of Fame without the all-time hits leader, all-time home runs leader and one of the best pitchers of all time?

Think about it.... Barry Bonds isn't in but Ted Freakin' Simmons is?

Pete Rose isn't in but Harmon Killebrew is? I loved the Killer but geez, you're suggesting he's a better baseball player than the consummate baseball player of his time?

Rose was one of the greatest ballplayers of all time. Deal with his gambling problems in is Hall presentation, but enshrine him.

Keeping Bonds, Schilling and the steroid bunch out is pretending it didn't happen. It's like pretending that Mark McGwire's and Sammy Sosa's  steroid fueled home run race in the late 1990s didn't save baseball.

Idiots.

Brother dgies,

I agree and I disagree. Bonds (and Clemens) were first ballot Hall of Famers before they started juicing. For me, they’re in. Palmiero is borderline. McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie before he became a chemistry project but I think he’s out. Sosa did nothing prior to bulking up and cheated on multiple levels. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation imo.


Schilling should be in. He’s said some dopey stuff but his numbers are honest and HOF worthy. Writers should keep their political biases to themselves when voting but some obviously don’t.

I think Rose should be in, too. He’s among the 10 best players of my lifetime and may be the best competitor ever this side of Ty Cobb. He’s kind of a sleazy character and he broke baseball’s law against gambling but I can’t imagine he ever bet against himself or his teammates.

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2022, 01:06:16 PM »
I agree and I disagree. Bonds (and Clemens) were first ballot Hall of Famers before they started juicing. For me, they’re in. Palmiero is borderline. McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie before he became a chemistry project but I think he’s out. Sosa did nothing prior to bulking up and cheated on multiple levels. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation imo.


Schilling should be in. He’s said some dopey stuff but his numbers are honest and HOF worthy. Writers should keep their political biases to themselves when voting but some obviously don’t.

I think Rose should be in, too. He’s among the 10 best players of my lifetime and may be the best competitor ever this side of Ty Cobb. He’s kind of a sleazy character and he broke baseball’s law against gambling but I can’t imagine he ever bet against himself or his teammates.

I agree with much of this, but ...

Do you think Gaylord Perry should be in the HoF? He not only cheated constantly, he even bragged about it. Why was Sosa's "cheating" worse than Perry's? To tell you the truth, I'd have Perry in and Sosa out, so I'm mostly looking for your opinion.

The vast majority of BBWAA voters -- 71% -- checked the box next to Schilling's name in 2021. He was only a few votes away from getting in. Then he came out and said he wanted to be off the ballot, so instead of progressing to the next level and getting more votes in his final year of eligibility -- as usually happens -- he actually got fewer votes. I happen to agree with you that he had a HoF career, and I voted for him when I still had a vote, but I do think he was closer to a borderline case than a no-brainer. Of all the names mentioned, he's probably got the best chance to get in via a veterans committee.

As for Rose, it doesn't matter if he bet on or against his own team. For example ...

He's managing the Reds. He has put 50 large on his team. He's in debt and he desperately needs to win the bet. It's a close game, the Reds are leading 4-3 in the eighth inning. His closer has worked the previous 3 games and there is no way Rose should send him out for a fourth straight. But he needs to win the bet. So he says, "Screw my closer's health," and sends him out in the eighth inning ... and the closer blows out his arm.

One could give many other examples of how a manager betting on his own team could hurt the athletes he manages as well as the integrity of the game.

There are rules and there are rules. Rose happened to break the most sacred rule in baseball. He did it repeatedly. He lied about having done it. He knew the consequences when he did it because they were spelled right out on the sign in his own clubhouse. So now he's facing the consequences.

There still are places in the Hall of Fame where his records are mentioned. But he's simply never going to be enshrined, and I have no problem with that.
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2022, 12:38:46 PM »
I agree with much of this, but ...

Do you think Gaylord Perry should be in the HoF? He not only cheated constantly, he even bragged about it. Why was Sosa's "cheating" worse than Perry's? To tell you the truth, I'd have Perry in and Sosa out, so I'm mostly looking for your opinion.

The vast majority of BBWAA voters -- 71% -- checked the box next to Schilling's name in 2021. He was only a few votes away from getting in. Then he came out and said he wanted to be off the ballot, so instead of progressing to the next level and getting more votes in his final year of eligibility -- as usually happens -- he actually got fewer votes. I happen to agree with you that he had a HoF career, and I voted for him when I still had a vote, but I do think he was closer to a borderline case than a no-brainer. Of all the names mentioned, he's probably got the best chance to get in via a veterans committee.

As for Rose, it doesn't matter if he bet on or against his own team. For example ...

He's managing the Reds. He has put 50 large on his team. He's in debt and he desperately needs to win the bet. It's a close game, the Reds are leading 4-3 in the eighth inning. His closer has worked the previous 3 games and there is no way Rose should send him out for a fourth straight. But he needs to win the bet. So he says, "Screw my closer's health," and sends him out in the eighth inning ... and the closer blows out his arm.

One could give many other examples of how a manager betting on his own team could hurt the athletes he manages as well as the integrity of the game.

There are rules and there are rules. Rose happened to break the most sacred rule in baseball. He did it repeatedly. He lied about having done it. He knew the consequences when he did it because they were spelled right out on the sign in his own clubhouse. So now he's facing the consequences.

There still are places in the Hall of Fame where his records are mentioned. But he's simply never going to be enshrined, and I have no problem with that.

Sammy Sosa went from a skinny, low average, little power guy to a monster due to PEDs. He was nothing without them.

Perry sometimes put a foreign substance on the ball. No opinion on him.

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2022, 03:04:34 PM »
Sammy Sosa went from a skinny, low average, little power guy to a monster due to PEDs. He was nothing without them.

Perry sometimes put a foreign substance on the ball. No opinion on him.

OK, Tony, thanks for the answer and the discussion. Have a good one.
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #104 on: February 01, 2022, 11:03:18 PM »
Doug Glanville at ESPN offers an ex-player's perspective on why juicers shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33181692/doug-glanville-why-glad-barry-bonds-elected-hall-fame

A couple of strong passages:

Watching so many of sports' biggest superstars tweet their disappointment in the vote that kept Bonds out didn't help. Eventually, I realized what many of them haven't had to: The lines you draw are different when you are directly impacted by such rampant cheating. Not peripherally, not theoretically, but directly -- in your contract negotiations, on the lineup card, on the depth chart, in the win column. "It is one thing to watch artificial domination on TV, marveling at the numbers it produced as if it is a magic show. It is another when you lose your job from it.

Also:

Every record that Bonds broke was against another player. Bonds faced pitchers, just as Roger Clemens faced hitters. And the fact that so many baseball players -- myself included -- had to consistently try to beat out people who had a constant advantage is not something I can brush off simply because their final numbers made our eyes pop out of our heads.

For me, to do so would dismiss the time I spent playing out the 2000-2002 seasons while my father was in and out of the hospital, choosing to do it without PEDs despite my desperation to regain my form from the 1999 season. Or when I got hurt during a free-agent year and came back after surgery using underwater workouts and weight training, not HGH. Like many players, I scrapped, battled, aged, while others apparently just cheated age chemically.

It's not just Bonds. So many players from the steroid era -- the era of my own professional career -- bulldozed everyone else to pad their stats. Apologists couch it in competitive spirit or a relentless will to win, but in the end it was just egomaniacal avarice, unleashed to compensate for the same insecurity that every major league player feels.
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2022, 12:11:28 AM »
Glanville is one of my favorite ex-players. Incredibly intelligent, very aware on social issues, always looking out for players and ex-players, and as good of an analyst as there is. That is why I was disappointed that while mentioning, guys like Bonds, Clemens, and Arod who didn't get in, he completely neglected to mention David Ortiz - another juicer who did get elected.

I have yet to hear a single voter explain why they cast a ballot for Ortiz, but not for the other three I mentioned.

But Buster Olney may have the answer: "the logic pretzels created by some of the writers in order to justify voting for Ortiz while not voting for others who have had reported links to PEDs were, well, amusing. ..... it seems apparent that his popularity and likability were difference making.”

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2022, 06:50:10 AM »
Glanville is one of my favorite ex-players. Incredibly intelligent, very aware on social issues, always looking out for players and ex-players, and as good of an analyst as there is. That is why I was disappointed that while mentioning, guys like Bonds, Clemens, and Arod who didn't get in, he completely neglected to mention David Ortiz - another juicer who did get elected.

I have yet to hear a single voter explain why they cast a ballot for Ortiz, but not for the other three I mentioned.

But Buster Olney may have the answer: "the logic pretzels created by some of the writers in order to justify voting for Ortiz while not voting for others who have had reported links to PEDs were, well, amusing. ..... it seems apparent that his popularity and likability were difference making.”

It is absolutely possible that Ortiz's popularity -- and Bonds/Clemens lack of same -- was the difference that helped Ortiz get 50 more votes than either of the other two. The voters are human, and therefore imperfect and subject to bias, just like any human. Voting for anything -- an election, an All-Star game, a Hall of Fame, anything -- is subjective.
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

tower912

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2022, 08:11:28 AM »
Ortiz became a shoo in after his speech following the Boston bombing.   So, yeah, perhaps popularity has something to do with it.   So be it.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2022, 09:52:15 AM »
It is absolutely possible that Ortiz's popularity -- and Bonds/Clemens lack of same -- was the difference that helped Ortiz get 50 more votes than either of the other two. The voters are human, and therefore imperfect and subject to bias, just like any human. Voting for anything -- an election, an All-Star game, a Hall of Fame, anything -- is subjective.

I agree that much in life is subjective - but numbers aren’t. Bonds and Clemens (by the numbers) were vastly superior players. And when you look at their careers before they most likely/logically all became juicers the gap is even wider. You’re right that everyone has biases, Mike. But not everyone is on guard to avoid excusing theirs as the basis for prejudiced judgements.

Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2022, 11:50:19 AM »
It is absolutely possible that Ortiz's popularity -- and Bonds/Clemens lack of same -- was the difference that helped Ortiz get 50 more votes than either of the other two. The voters are human, and therefore imperfect and subject to bias, just like any human. Voting for anything -- an election, an All-Star game, a Hall of Fame, anything -- is subjective.

Except that voting for cheaters is a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum by sports writers for a couple decades now. Where is the integrity in saying "i won't vote for Bonds or Clemens solely because they were cheaters" and then turning around and voting for a different cheater.

Personally, I think all 3 of these guys should be in. But it would be disingenuous to say I'll vote for this cheater, but my principles won't let me vote for that cheater.

lawdog77

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2022, 12:01:23 PM »
Ortiz became a shoo in after his speech following the Boston bombing.   So, yeah, perhaps popularity has something to do with it.   So be it.
Getting shot helped too

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2022, 12:54:22 PM »
I agree that much in life is subjective - but numbers aren’t. Bonds and Clemens (by the numbers) were vastly superior players. And when you look at their careers before they most likely/logically all became juicers the gap is even wider. You’re right that everyone has biases, Mike. But not everyone is on guard to avoid excusing theirs as the basis for prejudiced judgements.

Except that voting for cheaters is a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum by sports writers for a couple decades now. Where is the integrity in saying "i won't vote for Bonds or Clemens solely because they were cheaters" and then turning around and voting for a different cheater.

Personally, I think all 3 of these guys should be in. But it would be disingenuous to say I'll vote for this cheater, but my principles won't let me vote for that cheater.

Again, I voted for Bonds and Clemens, and I would have voted for Ortiz. I was just offering a brief explanation about why the voting might have gone the way it did.

Either way, I'm not terribly upset about it. If all the juicers with great stats get in, it wouldn't make me happy or sad; if most juicers, or the biggest offenders, don't get in, I'm fine with that, too.

If you visit the Hall, there are all kinds of exhibits discussing the careers of guys like Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and McGwire. When I last went, in 2019, there was an entire display case about the McGwire-Sosa HR chase of 1998, complete with mentions of steroids. That's a museum's job.

But yes, there is inconsistency in voting for Ortiz but not Bonds. And yes, personal feelings quite possibly went into those votes. Welcome to humanity.
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2022, 02:04:55 PM »


If you visit the Hall, there are all kinds of exhibits discussing the careers of guys like Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and McGwire. When I last went, in 2019, there was an entire display case about the McGwire-Sosa HR chase of 1998, complete with mentions of steroids. That's a museum's job.

But yes, there is inconsistency in voting for Ortiz but not Bonds. And yes, personal feelings quite possibly went into those votes. Welcome to humanity.

Rose is also in the exhibit area.

FWIW, humanity isn't impressing me much anymore. ::)

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2022, 04:46:04 PM »
Rose is also in the exhibit area.

Yes. The whole "he should have been inducted because of history" is stupid. All the gamblers and cheats are the subject of exhibits in the Hall of Fame. Their history has been recorded and it's available for all to see.

If you think the juicers and gamblers should be in the Hall because their stats are so good you're willing to overlook the juicing and gambling, that's another thing. Stick to that. (Not talking about you obviously, jockey.)

Being inducted into the Hall is incredible honor. It's totally different than just history.
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2022, 08:34:18 PM »
Again, I voted for Bonds and Clemens, and I would have voted for Ortiz. I was just offering a brief explanation about why the voting might have gone the way it did.

Either way, I'm not terribly upset about it.

But yes, there is inconsistency in voting for Ortiz but not Bonds. And yes, personal feelings quite possibly went into those votes. Welcome to humanity.

Mike

Not trying to be a jerk but it seems to me you’re much more sanguine about hypocrisy and blatant political bias than usual. If these folks didn’t share your profession I think you’d be a wee bit tougher on them.

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2022, 11:42:33 PM »
Mike

Not trying to be a jerk but it seems to me you’re much more sanguine about hypocrisy and blatant political bias than usual. If these folks didn’t share your profession I think you’d be a wee bit tougher on them.

You're allowed to think whatever you want to think, Tony. Have a nice night. We Are Marquette!
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2022, 01:29:39 AM »
Mike

Not trying to be a jerk but it seems to me you’re much more sanguine about hypocrisy and blatant political bias than usual. If these folks didn’t share your profession I think you’d be a wee bit tougher on them.

911: what's your emergency?
ZFB:  I need an ambulance.   Lenny just absolutely slayed nads. 
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Hards Alumni

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2022, 06:32:02 AM »
911: what's your emergency?
ZFB:  I need an ambulance.   Lenny just absolutely slayed nads. 
911:  understood.  Well done, Lenny.

This passes for humor.  You should write for Maher!

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2022, 12:01:24 PM »
I mean, I think it is pretty obvious that if Bonds and Clemens were as "likeable" as Ortiz, they probably would be in as well.  But both were surly, especially in their dealings with the press, so both are now the poster boys of bad behavior giving cover to people like Ortiz and eventually ARod. 
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TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #119 on: February 03, 2022, 07:54:50 PM »
911: what's your emergency?
ZFB:  I need an ambulance.   Lenny just absolutely slayed nads. 
911:  understood.  Well done, Lenny.

If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

4everwarriors

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2022, 08:00:58 PM »
As Charles Barkley so eloquently once said, " I make $3 million a year. I don't get embarrassed," hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Herman Cain

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2022, 05:26:15 PM »
I'd take Dick Allen before any of those four - and it wouldn't even be close. 22nd all time OPS+ ahead of guys like Aaron, Mays, Robinson, DiMaggio, and Thomas.
Dick Allen was an awesome player . He was the most feared batter in his time . It happened to be in an era when pitchers dominated so his stats don’t compare but anyone who saw him play and the brutal line drive home runs he hit would say he is a Hall of Famer
Vote for Pedro
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lawdog77

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #122 on: February 09, 2022, 03:49:58 PM »

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #123 on: February 09, 2022, 04:43:47 PM »
"Freedom of the press is not just important to democracy, it IS democracy." - Walter Cronkite

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2022, 05:44:16 PM »
Tim Raines couldn’t have gotten much higher than he was.

#backpocketcocaine

 

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