collapse

* Wisconsin SOTG

No Stud when we lose.
2021-22 Season SoG Tally
Morsell2
Ighodaro1
Kolek1
Kuath1
Lewis1
Mitchell1

'20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

NM by jesmu84
[Today at 03:34:55 PM]


Kohl hole o sole' mio by brewcity77
[Today at 03:15:57 PM]


Big East Poll and NET Rankings by brewcity77
[Today at 03:03:10 PM]


MAKE YOUR KANSAS STATE PREDICTIONS HERE by marquettejr
[Today at 02:37:27 PM]


Beating K-State is Imperative by panda
[Today at 01:53:48 PM]


Badger Game Autopsy by Markusquette
[Today at 01:46:21 PM]


2021-22 Big East Conference Results by MU82
[Today at 12:47:49 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: @ Kansas State

Marquette
76
Marquette @

Kansas St.

Date/Time: Dec 8, 2021, 8:00pm
TV: ESPN2
Schedule for 2021-22
Wisconsin
89

Author Topic: More conference realignment talk  (Read 33319 times)

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2948
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #250 on: October 17, 2021, 10:51:18 AM »
I hope they say go get the Zags and heres a truck full of money to do so...

I’m feeling way more optimistic about the Zags in the Big East than ever before and think it’s more likely than not
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6409
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #251 on: October 17, 2021, 10:53:13 AM »
Really the only consideration that matters in expansion, is does a school raise the profile of men’s basketball, the one and only cash cow for the Big East.  The television contract with Fox Sports is coming up. You want to make the member schools collectively as attractive as possible in terms of their men’s basketball programs to hopefully force a media company bidding war.

I’m not arguing I think that’s a pure and wonderful thing that it’s all reduced to money, but that ship has long since sailed for major college athletics programs, so schools and conferences have to play along when everyone else is, or be reduced to irrelevancy. 

And the fact is, SLU does zero for the Big East.  They bring a television and media market somewhere in the 20’s nationally.  That’s nice, but nothing else is brought to the table to make them an attractive potential addition that moves the needle of media giants paying the TV deal, advertisers, fan interest, etc.  No signature moment of their men’s basketball program, no recent or any track record of sustained program relevancy or success, nothing.  Facilities, very mediocre fan support, etc. add nothing of value to the conference. All these things you only start weighing if they first pass the litmus test of men’s basketball being relevant, successful, attractive.  Which they clearly don’t, very mediocre overall. 

If adding SLU is such a good idea, this would have happened by now.  They’re  the same program, virtually same in everything when the new Big East was formed.  The conference correctly  passed on them then, and should politely say thanks, but no thanks if they are indeed going to make a major push soon for membership.  This would just be addition for the sake of addition and a 12th school. 

They are clearly going to talk with media partners before adding another school. If it makes sense after those conversations, they will add whomever is best.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

JakeBarnes

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4170
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #252 on: October 17, 2021, 11:02:09 AM »
I’m feeling way more optimistic about the Zags in the Big East than ever before and think it’s more likely than not

I am with you. It feels like there is a lot of smoke
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2948
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #253 on: October 17, 2021, 11:07:41 AM »
I am with you. It feels like there is a lot of smoke

If the Big East commissioner casually mentions expansion, that means those talks have already occurred and the process has begun in some form.
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17766
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #254 on: October 17, 2021, 11:08:18 AM »
I feel like there is internet chat board speculation.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2948
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #255 on: October 17, 2021, 11:18:02 AM »
I feel like there is internet chat board speculation.

I’d agree had Val not mentioned the possibility
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #256 on: October 17, 2021, 11:55:43 AM »
Really the only consideration that matters in expansion, is does a school raise the profile of men’s basketball, the one and only cash cow for the Big East.  The television contract with Fox Sports is coming up. You want to make the member schools collectively as attractive as possible in terms of their men’s basketball programs to hopefully force a media company bidding war.

I’m not arguing I think that’s a pure and wonderful thing that it’s all reduced to money, but that ship has long since sailed for major college athletics programs, so schools and conferences have to play along when everyone else is, or be reduced to irrelevancy. 

And the fact is, SLU does zero for the Big East.  They bring a television and media market somewhere in the 20’s nationally.  That’s nice, but nothing else is brought to the table to make them an attractive potential addition that moves the needle of media giants paying the TV deal, advertisers, fan interest, etc.  No signature moment of their men’s basketball program, no recent or any track record of sustained program relevancy or success, nothing.  Facilities, very mediocre fan support, etc. add nothing of value to the conference. All these things you only start weighing if they first pass the litmus test of men’s basketball being relevant, successful, attractive.  Which they clearly don’t, very mediocre overall. 

If adding SLU is such a good idea, this would have happened by now.  They’re  the same program, virtually same in everything when the new Big East was formed.  The conference correctly  passed on them then, and should politely say thanks, but no thanks if they are indeed going to make a major push soon for membership.  This would just be addition for the sake of addition and a 12th school.

I’m all for the Big East going after Gonzaga and great teams.

But the SLU comments are dated and off. Their program is different today.

In no particular order:

They upped their hoops budget where now it is the same as Xavier, Seton Hall, etc..and higher than some other Big East Teams. This $ commitment would only increase in the Big East.

They have several wealthy boosters. One has donated $30 million already. Others have donated 7 to 8 figures.

They have good, recent $100 million facilities. They have an announcement coming Tuesday for an addition to these facilities. They also have access to the recently renovated ($150 million) 22k seat Arena down the street.

They no longer have the same non sports friendly, 25 year school President. There aren’t any Majerus ve Biondi charter flight disagreements. They have some better people on their board too. Majerus picked their AD.

Creighton for example had made 2 NCAA Tourneys in 6 seasons when they joined the Big East. But they did have a popular former MU VP as their school President. He was good at building relationships etc…they of course have done fine, as have others. SLU has the same number of NCAA appearances the past decade as Marquette, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall, and more than a few other Big East Schools. And, they are only scratching the surface.

Their fan support is good. Hoops is popular there. They’d do well in the Big East, and they’d have better chances at landing the local Tatum’s and Beal’s in a better league.

Marquette has made 4 NCAA Tourneys in the past decade. They aren’t projected to do so again this year. MUBB has made the NCAA 2nd weekend just 5 times in over 40 years. And we haven’t really discussed the DePaul’s etc…


 



Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6409
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #257 on: October 17, 2021, 12:23:00 PM »
I’m all for the Big East going after Gonzaga and great teams.

But the SLU comments are dated and off. Their program is different today.

In no particular order:

They upped their hoops budget where now it is the same as Xavier, Seton Hall, etc..and higher than some other Big East Teams. This $ commitment would only increase in the Big East.

They have several wealthy boosters. One has donated $30 million already. Others have donated 7 to 8 figures.

They have good, recent $100 million facilities. They have an announcement coming Tuesday for an addition to these facilities. They also have access to the recently renovated ($150 million) 22k seat Arena down the street.

They no longer have the same non sports friendly, 25 year school President. There aren’t any Majerus ve Biondi charter flight disagreements. They have some better people on their board too. Majerus picked their AD.

Creighton for example had made 2 NCAA Tourneys in 6 seasons when they joined the Big East. But they did have a popular former MU VP as their school President. He was good at building relationships etc…they of course have done fine, as have others. SLU has the same number of NCAA appearances the past decade as Marquette, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall, and more than a few other Big East Schools. And, they are only scratching the surface.

Their fan support is good. Hoops is popular there. They’d do well in the Big East, and they’d have better chances at landing the local Tatum’s and Beal’s in a better league.

Marquette has made 4 NCAA Tourneys in the past decade. They aren’t projected to do so again this year. MUBB has made the NCAA 2nd weekend just 5 times in over 40 years. And we haven’t really discussed the DePaul’s etc…


Your post was good…until you made the shot at MU at the end. In pretty much every way, Marquette has a better basketball program than SLU.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

JWags85

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #258 on: October 17, 2021, 12:32:14 PM »
Creighton for example had made 2 NCAA Tourneys in 6 seasons when they joined the Big East. But they did have a popular former MU VP as their school President. He was good at building relationships etc…they of course have done fine, as have others. SLU has the same number of NCAA appearances the past decade as Marquette, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall, and more than a few other Big East Schools. And, they are only scratching the surface.

Their fan support is good. Hoops is popular there. They’d do well in the Big East, and they’d have better chances at landing the local Tatum’s and Beal’s in a better league.

Marquette has made 4 NCAA Tourneys in the past decade. They aren’t projected to do so again this year. MUBB has made the NCAA 2nd weekend just 5 times in over 40 years. And we haven’t really discussed the DePaul’s etc…

That’s some clever framing of time periods for Billiken benefit. SLU has 1 NCAA appearance in the last 5 years.  It’s not like they’ve been lighting the world on fire.  Marquette had a rough few years, sure, but Marquette has made more NCAAs in the last 20 years than SLU has made in their program history. Why are we comparing MU to SLU like they are at all comparable when one has an E8 in the last 10 years and the other hasn’t been to the second weekend since color TV was broadcasting sports?

The investments and supposed changes in SLU are different arguments, but trying to put SLU basketball up against MU or other Big East teams is silly.  If the deal was to replace DePaul with SLU straight up, it still wouldn’t happen.  You mention Creighton, Creighton had 15 straight seasons finishing no worse than 4th in the MVC and finishing first or second 10 out of those 15 seasons.  That is a level of consistency and dominance that SLU has never achieved. It wasn’t just sales and negotiation to plus up a decent program.

BTW, before you undoubtedly claim this or any rebuttal is just tribal St Louis hate and you have no STL allegiance and post on soooo many topics.  This is 15 out of your last 20 posts that are directly STL related and the only wordy novellas on this site by your prolific pen are about Gateway City topics.  Just own it   8-)

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #259 on: October 17, 2021, 12:35:34 PM »

Your post was good…until you made the shot at MU at the end. In pretty much every way, Marquette has a better basketball program than SLU.

No one said otherwise.

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #260 on: October 17, 2021, 12:48:39 PM »
That’s some clever framing of time periods for Billiken benefit. SLU has 1 NCAA appearance in the last 5 years.  It’s not like they’ve been lighting the world on fire.  Marquette had a rough few years, sure, but Marquette has made more NCAAs in the last 20 years than SLU has made in their program history. Why are we comparing MU to SLU like they are at all comparable when one has an E8 in the last 10 years and the other hasn’t been to the second weekend since color TV was broadcasting sports?

The investments and supposed changes in SLU are different arguments, but trying to put SLU basketball up against MU or other Big East teams is silly.  If the deal was to replace DePaul with SLU straight up, it still wouldn’t happen.  You mention Creighton, Creighton had 15 straight seasons finishing no worse than 4th in the MVC and finishing first or second 10 out of those 15 seasons.  That is a level of consistency and dominance that SLU has never achieved. It wasn’t just sales and negotiation to plus up a decent program.

BTW, before you undoubtedly claim this or any rebuttal is just tribal St Louis hate and you have no STL allegiance and post on soooo many topics.  This is 15 out of your last 20 posts that are directly STL related and the only wordy novellas on this site by your prolific pen are about Gateway City topics.  Just own it   8-)

It isn’t about comparing SLU and Marquette. Some of the other newer Big East Schools Butler, Creighton, have fared better than MUBB during that time. Perhaps it’s a little bit of a reality check for some.

Part of joining a league is how a team elevates towards that new league, not just what they have done in the past. SLU can certainly help itself by winning more.

A decade isn’t clever framing. It’s pretty factual. I could have added how long it has been since MUBB has won an NCAA Tourney game. I didn’t think of it in the post. Obviously had Majerus not gotten sick and had SLU not chosen Majerus’ preference of Crews, they wouldn’t have dropped their level until returning it back up a bit recently. The point is and was that SLU is in a different place today from an economic and admin standpoint etc among other things.

Just as some are overly sensitive about a certain place, some will be sensitive about MUBB. But reality is it could be better.

As far as topics, you and a few similar others are jumping in here because of the place as opposed to recent posts about Women’s Basketball, Atlanta, New York, cord cutting, tennis or insert topic here. That says more about you and a few others being triggered by a place than it does me. I don’t really care if it triggers a few. I post in the topics aout tthe topics.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 01:02:26 PM by shoothoops »

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6409
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #261 on: October 17, 2021, 12:51:35 PM »
No one said otherwise.

Then why bring up Marquette?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #262 on: October 17, 2021, 12:55:29 PM »
Then why bring up Marquette?

I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.

Hards_Alumni

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5306
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #263 on: October 17, 2021, 01:00:16 PM »
I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.

You're from STL and your bias does show here, though.

SLU is just another warm body and drags the conference in the wrong direction.

JWags85

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #264 on: October 17, 2021, 01:07:18 PM »
I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.

That’s interesting given SLU has a coach who came from a program that had all the resources in the world and he wasn’t successful.  And he’s been only moderately successful at SLU. 

So a program with mild short term success, no long term or historical success to speak of…is suddenly compared to programs like Marquette and Creighton who have far more success by any metric, regardless of BEast affiliation to state that SLU will compete cause they have money now?  And will suddenly be able to retain top 25 local recruits who went to places like Duke and Billy D’s Florida?  That seems equally unrealistic to me.

It feels like a moderate performing employee at their level angling for a promotion by saying he/she would be an excellent director if only they had the prestige/resources of a director

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2948
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #265 on: October 17, 2021, 01:11:11 PM »
Adding St. Louis would be embarrassing
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

We R Final Four

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5172
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #266 on: October 17, 2021, 01:14:40 PM »
WEST            EAST
——-             ———
MU                PC   
DeP               GEORGE
CREI              NOVA
BUT               STJ
X                   S HALL
+1                 UCONN

Play everyone in your division 2x, play every team in other division 1x. That’s 16 games.
That may be a little light.
Can’t imagine playing more than 20 conference (similar to this year), if another team is added.

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #267 on: October 17, 2021, 01:16:20 PM »
You're from STL and your bias does show here, though.

SLU is just another warm body and drags the conference in the wrong direction.

No that isn’t correct. I’ve lived many places and I post objectively about the topic or subtopic about all of them. None of them trigger me for trivial reasons. This is why you won’t find posts from me trolling Milwaukee or Chicago or New York or L.A. or wherever.

You (and anyone else) are entitled to your opinion on this topic or any other topic, whether it is a one word type of response or something supported by other things. I gave my opinion and I explained specifically why. That’s all I can do.


Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6409
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #268 on: October 17, 2021, 01:20:21 PM »
I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.

Marquette’s position in college basketball isn’t relevant to the discussion of whether or not SLU is a viable BE expansion candidate.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6409
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #269 on: October 17, 2021, 01:20:43 PM »
WEST            EAST
——-             ———
MU                PC   
DeP               GEORGE
CREI              NOVA
BUT               STJ
X                   S HALL
+1                 UCONN

Play everyone in your division 2x, play every team in other division 1x. That’s 16 games.
That may be a little light.
Can’t imagine playing more than 20 conference (similar to this year), if another team is added.


Puke. No divisions.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #270 on: October 17, 2021, 01:25:48 PM »
That’s interesting given SLU has a coach who came from a program that had all the resources in the world and he wasn’t successful.  And he’s been only moderately successful at SLU. 

So a program with mild short term success, no long term or historical success to speak of…is suddenly compared to programs like Marquette and Creighton who have far more success by any metric, regardless of BEast affiliation to state that SLU will compete cause they have money now?  And will suddenly be able to retain top 25 local recruits who went to places like Duke and Billy D’s Florida?  That seems equally unrealistic to me.

It feels like a moderate performing employee at their level angling for a promotion by saying he/she would be an excellent director if only they had the prestige/resources of a director

The problem with your posts is that you keep wanting to have it both ways. You didn’t like it when I went back a decade with information. You wanted the information shorter to better fit your position. But later you want longer to add longer term historical information when it better fits your position. This suggests that you aren’t interested in a objective discussion about the topic, for reasons I already mentioned.

Some of those players have already spoken publicly about those things.

https://twitter.com/coachtford5/status/1443242988818337792?s=21

As I said, SLU can help itself by winning more games.Their coach has been able to do something other previous coaches haven’t, including Majerus, and that’s recruit local players. They have one this season, a transfer who was a top 50 local high school player. (another from just a little bit farther away, also a transfer and a top 50 hs player) Yes, I do believe SLU would be more successful with high level local recruits playing in the Big East, and continuing its other hoops commitment.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 01:38:21 PM by shoothoops »

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #271 on: October 17, 2021, 01:30:16 PM »
Marquette’s position in college basketball isn’t relevant to the discussion of whether or not SLU is a viable BE expansion candidate.

Yes and no. The Big East would like to add Gonzaga, but, it isn’t filled with many Gonzaga like programs in it. Some here think it’s a Gonzaga or bust world. I understand the thought behind wanting that.

But I also can get past that and give an opinion whether or not SLU would be successful in the Big East. I think they would be and I said in part some reasons why.

MUfan12

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4742
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #272 on: October 17, 2021, 01:40:14 PM »
I haven't had the pleasure of visiting, but I'm confident the pizza is better in Spokane than St. Louis.

(I really just want to see shoothoops write 750 words about Provel)

Mr. Nielsen

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4776
  • Facts don't care about your feelings!
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #273 on: October 17, 2021, 01:44:19 PM »
The reality is BE will do what Fox wants to get a new contract and $$$.

That will be my vote!
If we are all thinking alike, we're not thinking at all. It's OK to disagree. Just don't be disagreeable.
-Bill Walton

JWags85

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: More conference realignment talk
« Reply #274 on: October 17, 2021, 01:50:46 PM »
The problem with your posts is that you keep wanting to have it both ways. You didn’t like it when I went back a decade with information. You wanted the information shorter to better fit your position. But later you want longer to add longer term historical information when it better fits your position. This suggests that you aren’t interested in a objective discussion about the topic, for reasons I already mentioned.

Some of those players have already spoken publicly about those things.

https://twitter.com/coachtford5/status/1443242988818337792?s=21

As I said, SLU can help itself by winning more games.Their coach has been able to do something other previous coaches haven’t, including Majerus, and that’s recruit local players. They have one this season, a transfer who was a top 50 local high school player. (another from just a little bit farther away, also a transfer and a top 50 hs player) Yes, I do believe SLU would be more successful with high level local recruits playing in the Big East, and continuing its other hoops commitment.

What are you even talking about? I said using only the last decade (or last 5 years) makes MU look bad comparatively. But down periods happen and do not a program make.  I repeatedly used longer time periods cause it’s a indicator of program strength.  Short term, which you used to position SLU as more successful than Marquette, also didn’t really shine all that favorable on SLU in the grand scheme.

If you want to be taken seriously around here, you need to own your bias and also stop accusing everyone of some sort of outsized STL hate.  I could care less about STL or SLU except when people with bias towards them make claims I disagree with.  You don’t refute actual stats that disagree with your stance, just write novels on other stuff or just claim people don’t want to be objective against poor picked on STL.

You’re totally entitled to your thoughts and opinions about what HS recruits might stay around, that’s fair, but using NBA players, nearly a decade past their college decisions, supporting their hometown as some indicator that they would have played at SLU is as silly as people believing Lebron when he used to talk about the list of colleges he would have considered if he went to college.