2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[reinko]

The Athletic's Sam Vecenie picked his Summer League MVPs: Davion Mitchell and Cam Thomas.

I watched Mitchell twice and he very much showed why NBA types have raved about his defensive prowess. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a darn good offensive player, too.

Vecenie also gives shout-outs to two guys who spurned Marquette: Jalen Johnson and Quentin Grimes.

On Johnson: "I have never really been as high as the consensus public opinion of Johnson at any level he’s played at, including this past season at Duke. ... But Johnson looked really good at summer league, playing in a role that makes a lot more sense than what he was asked to do at Duke. Here, he was able to just get out in transition, finish plays, and make easy decisions while using his obvious gifts of size and athleticism. He’s uncannily coordinated for his size at 6-foot-9, with tremendous balance and body control."

On Grimes: "Grimes was a top-10 recruit in the country as essentially a lead guard when he was in high school. There was a point in his career when he had some of those skills in his bag. Then it all went wrong at Kansas, and he had to rebuild his game from the ground up at Houston as more of a 3-and-D wing. ... Grimes did exactly what is expected of an older rookie at summer league. He hit 40 percent of the nine 3s he took per game, and defended at the level he showed at Houston over the last two years of his collegiate career."

Davion Mitchell might have one of my favorite nicknames because of his defensive prowess:  Off Night

[MU82]

Davion Mitchell might have one of my favorite nicknames because of his defensive prowess:  Off Night

Yeah, the game they played the Hornets, the analyst was Greg Anthony, and he kept saying, "Off Night is killin' Bouknight!"

[cheebs09]

Giannis purchased a minority stake in the Brew Crew. Nice addition to a portfolio that already includes the Phoenix Suns.

[Silkk the Shaka]

The Athletic's Sam Vecenie picked his Summer League MVPs: Davion Mitchell and Cam Thomas.

I watched Mitchell twice and he very much showed why NBA types have raved about his defensive prowess. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a darn good offensive player, too.

Vecenie also gives shout-outs to two guys who spurned Marquette: Jalen Johnson and Quentin Grimes.

On Johnson: "I have never really been as high as the consensus public opinion of Johnson at any level he’s played at, including this past season at Duke. ... But Johnson looked really good at summer league, playing in a role that makes a lot more sense than what he was asked to do at Duke. Here, he was able to just get out in transition, finish plays, and make easy decisions while using his obvious gifts of size and athleticism. He’s uncannily coordinated for his size at 6-foot-9, with tremendous balance and body control."

On Grimes: "Grimes was a top-10 recruit in the country as essentially a lead guard when he was in high school. There was a point in his career when he had some of those skills in his bag. Then it all went wrong at Kansas, and he had to rebuild his game from the ground up at Houston as more of a 3-and-D wing. ... Grimes did exactly what is expected of an older rookie at summer league. He hit 40 percent of the nine 3s he took per game, and defended at the level he showed at Houston over the last two years of his collegiate career."

What that tells me is he would have been a colossal flop under Wojo, doing literally whatever he wanted at an extremely inefficient level, and transferred to Houston after freshman year anyway. Sounds like Sampson's program was exactly what he needed.

[Jockey]

Giannis purchased a minority stake in the Brew Crew. Nice addition to a portfolio that already includes the Phoenix Suns.

Literally, the closet thing to a money tree that exists. Bill Mahre has talked about the windfall profits he received when Cohen bought the Mets.

[Jockey]

Well, whoever does the ranking on that video game apparently is part of that huge minority.

In a vacuum, I'd probably rather have Jrue, but context matters. For example, if I already had a good PG and needed a big, I'd rather have Sabonis.

.

 Just a guess, but if you looked up a dozen sites for top 25 players in the NBA today, Jrue’s name would be on most. I doubt that Sabonis would be on any.

BTW, I think Sabonis is a very good player.

[GB Warrior]

Giannis purchased a minority stake in the Brew Crew. Nice addition to a portfolio that already includes the Phoenix Suns.

Not to mention claiming Ben Simmons as a dependant on his taxes.

It's a little disappointing for him to go the LeBron route and try to buy his way to another championship.

[MU82]

.

 Just a guess, but if you looked up a dozen sites for top 25 players in the NBA today, Jrue’s name would be on most. I doubt that Sabonis would be on any.

BTW, I think Sabonis is a very good player.

OK.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

What that tells me is he would have been a colossal flop under Wojo, doing literally whatever he wanted at an extremely inefficient level, and transferred to Houston after freshman year anyway. Sounds like Sampson's program was exactly what he needed.

Hold on. Are you trying to say that Sampson runs some sort of disciplined program???  Lolololol. Ok🙄

[lawdog77]

You’re in a huge minority if you think Sabonis is better than Holiday.

What's a huge minority? Is that almost a small majority?

It's difficult to find many Top 25 or Top 50 lists that have been compiled after the season. Here's one though
https://sportsnaut.com/best-nba-players-right-now/ Jrue 43-Sabonis 31. And BTW I like Jrue alot, and he is a perfect fit for the Bucks. In a vacuum though, I would take Sabonis.

[MU82]

What's a huge minority? Is that almost a small majority?

It's difficult to find many Top 25 or Top 50 lists that have been compiled after the season. Here's one though
https://sportsnaut.com/best-nba-players-right-now/ Jrue 43-Sabonis 31. And BTW I like Jrue alot, and he is a perfect fit for the Bucks. In a vacuum though, I would take Sabonis.

As I said, it would depend on my needs. If I already had a top-10 PG but needed a big, I'd take Sabonis in a heartbeat. If I needed an upgrade at PG, a position that's so freakin' important (as definitely was the case for the Bucks), I'd take Holiday.

These kinds of rankings are all just conversation starters, anyway. And here we are -- conversing.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

What's a huge minority? Is that almost a small majority?

It's difficult to find many Top 25 or Top 50 lists that have been compiled after the season. Here's one though
https://sportsnaut.com/best-nba-players-right-now/ Jrue 43-Sabonis 31. And BTW I like Jrue alot, and he is a perfect fit for the Bucks. In a vacuum though, I would take Sabonis.

I have questions about this list. Holiday at 43 and Malcolm Brogdon at 38? Holiday is much more impactful and the ring proves it, since the Bucks couldn't win one with Brogdan.

But an even bigger head scratcher is Julius Randle at 22 and Anthony Davis at 23.  Imagine the Knicks proposing a Randle for Davis trade. The Lakers turn that down so fast it'll make the Knicks heads spin.

[lawdog77]

As I said, it would depend on my needs. If I already had a top-10 PG but needed a big, I'd take Sabonis in a heartbeat. If I needed an upgrade at PG, a position that's so freakin' important (as definitely was the case for the Bucks), I'd take Holiday.

These kinds of rankings are all just conversation starters, anyway. And here we are -- conversing.

Agreed. I just feel that Jockey's belief that it's a no brainer that Holliday is better is not true. There's argument to be had that Sabonis has the better stats. I think bias in terms of his favorite team comes into play.

[MuggsyB]

Holiday's overall impact has now been solidified.  The truth is offensively he was wildly inconsistent in the playoffs.  Many games he was woefully bad shooting the ball.  However, what he did in Game 5 of the Finals is the exact reason the Bucks got him.  That was about as complete a performance as you'll ever see. 

Very few players are capable of dominating a game in that fashion under those stakes.  Because playoff basketball allows more physicality on the perimeter, Holiday's worth can't really be measured in stats. He was the perfect addition to the Bucks and I said it 5 mins after the trade occurred.  So while he's not automatically "better" than some of these aforementioned players he's definitely more valuable imo.

[Jockey]

Agreed. I just feel that Jockey's belief that it's a no brainer that Holliday is better is not true. There's argument to be had that Sabonis has the better stats. I think bias in terms of his favorite team comes into play.

Of course Sabonis has better stats. Look at the team he plays for. But they are just Kevin Love stats. Mostly meaningless.

But I would love Sabonis on the Bucks. He would probably only be a 14/8 guy, but as I said earlier, I think he is a very good player and he has shown some high level NBA skills.

But back to the original argument, Jrue is a better player. That is not an insult to Sabonis.

[GB Warrior]

I thought The Athletic's tiers were pretty smart, if not overly scientific. Passed the eye test for me at least in where it placed Jrue in the 3rd fiddle tier.

Weighing in on the argument at hand, Sabonis is a fine player and - on the right squad - could unlock a team whose star players don't quite fit because of his facilitation.

But on the Bucks and on most other teams, Jrue is or would be the superior player.

https://theathletic.com/2762817/2021/08/13/nba-player-tiers-lebron-james-kevin-durant-giannis-antetokounmpo-rank-atop-tier-1-as-leagues-very-best/

[Silkk the Shaka]

Hold on. Are you trying to say that Sampson runs some sort of disciplined program???  Lolololol. Ok🙄

??? They're incredibly tough & disciplined on defense and run a more systematic offense. Confused what you're confused about

[MU82]

Holiday's overall impact has now been solidified.  The truth is offensively he was wildly inconsistent in the playoffs.  Many games he was woefully bad shooting the ball.  However, what he did in Game 5 of the Finals is the exact reason the Bucks got him.  That was about as complete a performance as you'll ever see. 

Very few players are capable of dominating a game in that fashion under those stakes.  Because playoff basketball allows more physicality on the perimeter, Holiday's worth can't really be measured in stats. He was the perfect addition to the Bucks and I said it 5 mins after the trade occurred.  So while he's not automatically "better" than some of these aforementioned players he's definitely more valuable imo.

Yes, Holiday turned out to be the perfect addition to the Bucks, exactly what they needed to get over the hump.

Sabonis would have been lovely to have on the team, but unnecessary, and nowhere near as valuable as a very good PG.

Other teams -- ones with top-level PGs -- would no doubt rather have Sabonis, though. Which is why these kinds of conversations are little more than offseason filler.

[wadesworld]

Just see what Jrue did for the Olympic team. They had plenty of guards and needed bigs badly, but I have very little doubt Pop, Jay, the rest of the staff, and the players would all rather have had Jrue than Sabonis. Jrue was the second most important player on the team, even though they had Booker, Lillard, LeVine, Middleton, Tatum, etc.

Guy got off the plane and the same day was playing 30 minutes in their first game. Second in minutes played on the team despite having just played through the NBA Finals. Third in points, first in assists, third in rebounds, first in steals, fourth in blocks.

Continues to be maybe the most underrated player in the NBA, apparently even by a fan base based largely out of the city he just won an NBA title in. Listen to Draymond’s comments after the Olympics. Or to KD’s on Reddick’s podcast. I think Lillard said similar things, maybe on Reddick’s podcast. The guys who play the game all say nobody understands how good Jrue is. I think they’d laugh if the question of who is better, Jrue or Sabonis was posed to them.

[lawdog77]

I guarantee Pop and his staff would have loved to have Sabonis. His game is tailor made for the Olympics.  Unfortunately, he played for Team Lithuania. He dud win the All Star Skills competition as well .

[Jockey]

I guarantee Pop and his staff would have loved to have Sabonis. His game is tailor made for the Olympics.  Unfortunately, he played for Team Lithuania. He dud win the All Star Skills competition as well .

I don’t thing even one person has argued that Sabonis is not a good player.

[lawdog77]

I don’t thing even one person has argued that Sabonis is not a good player.

Where did I say that? My point is that Jrue>Sabonis is not a slam dunk. I would argue that lack of bigs was almost Team USA's downfall, and Pop would have rather had Sabonis. 

[reinko]

This argument is hilarious, mainly because it’s based on a bunch nerds assigning ratings in a video game, then a bunch of dorks on a message board (and I too call myself a dork on a message board).

It’s pretty easy to see Jrue being more valuable on a team like the Bucks (and many others), but Sabonis also being more valuable on teams that are more wing heavy, say the Celtics.

[wadesworld]

DJ Wilson is an 84 in 2K. Jrue is an 85…

Mikael Bridges an 86.

[reinko]

DJ Wilson is an 84 in 2K. Jrue is an 85…

Mikael Bridges an 86.

This is like SuperBad, where they say; calm down Greg it’s soccer, it’s soccer.