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Author Topic: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....  (Read 9086 times)

Scoop Snoop

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2021, 12:54:27 PM »
So in summary, Shaka doesn't get a pass from anyone, but in general will receive an "incomplete" at the end of this season. 

Regardless of the results (tourney birth, or wojo-like year) the expectations go way up the next two years.

I think you're right.  But not worry? Where exactly do you think you are?

Mea Culpa! Please forgive this transgression to Scoop etiquette. And tell me this is not ban worthy.

There's an adage that I like: "Worrying is like paying interest on a debt that you may never incur."



"Your words don't mean anything to me. Argument doesn't have any effect on me."
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                Excerpt from a Steinbeck novel.

MU82

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2021, 01:22:28 PM »

If Shaka puts up another disappointing year next year, we’re in deep do-do.

Was MU in "deep do-do" when Crean put up a "disappointing year" in 1999-2000?

Was Virginia Tech in "deep do-do" when Buzz went 11-22 his first season there?

Was Nova in "deep do-do" when Wright put up a "disappointing year" in his first season?

Was Texas Tech in "deep do-do" when Beard put up a 6-12 conference record his first year there?

Was Auburn in "deep do-do" when Pearl went 26-40 in his first two years there?

Etc etc etc etc.

Were all of them unable to get recruits after their "disappointing" starts at their respective programs? Did those programs turn into "just another basketball playing school — a step ahead of DePaul" after those "disappointing" first seasons?

I'm sure glad our new guy is a better coach than Wright, Beard, Pearl, Crean and Buzz ... so we are guaranteed to avoid a "disappointing" 2021-22 season that will put the program in "deep do-do"!
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

dgies9156

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #152 on: July 26, 2021, 09:45:22 AM »
Was MU in "deep do-do" when Crean put up a "disappointing year" in 1999-2000?

Was Virginia Tech in "deep do-do" when Buzz went 11-22 his first season there?

Was Nova in "deep do-do" when Wright put up a "disappointing year" in his first season?

Was Texas Tech in "deep do-do" when Beard put up a 6-12 conference record his first year there?

Was Auburn in "deep do-do" when Pearl went 26-40 in his first two years there?

Etc etc etc etc.

Were all of them unable to get recruits after their "disappointing" starts at their respective programs? Did those programs turn into "just another basketball playing school — a step ahead of DePaul" after those "disappointing" first seasons?

I'm sure glad our new guy is a better coach than Wright, Beard, Pearl, Crean and Buzz ... so we are guaranteed to avoid a "disappointing" 2021-22 season that will put the program in "deep do-do"!

Brother MU,

Our program is at a turning point. Going into the 2021-2022 season, we had quite a bit of talent and a good recruiting class on the way. We had a Coach who had wandered in the wilderness for seven years and had never maximized the talent he had to get Marquette to what most of us expect of our program.

Coach Wojo was wacked for this reason.

Coming into the year, we obtained the services of Coach we wanted. We went into the Transfer/Fifth Year market for veteran players we wanted. While we are young, pursuing the players we did suggests what our original commentator suggests -- Shaka's expectation and that of the university is WIN NOW!

Not only do we have a well-respected head coach, we also have a city where the NBA team just won the World Championship of basketball. That dispels the notion that Milwaukee is a sort of backwater city for basketball in which nobody wants to play.

If you take location off the table. If you take coaching off the table. If we can't win still, then yes, we are in deep do-do. The expectation with Mosell, Kur et al, is win NOW.

Its DJOver

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #153 on: July 26, 2021, 10:28:29 AM »
Is there actually any evidence of NBA success causing collegiate basketball success in the same city, or vice versa?  This has been brought up a ton in the recent weeks and I just don't see it.  NBA basketball and NCAA basketball are just too different.  Without going back too far, DePaul had 2 bids and 2 first round exits during the Bulls era.  CUSA was decent during the Rockets championships and Houston was consistently at the bottom of it. UCLA and the Lakers had a bit of overlap, although it seems to be the outlier and I'm not sure how much one had to do with the other.  They're both mid/low majors, but UTSA and San Francisco haven't done anything while their cities NBA teams thrived.  Miami had one whole bid during the cities "big three" era.  Sure there have been more eyes on the city of Milwaukee concerning basketball than there has been in a long time, and you would occasionally see the MU banner when they would pan around the outside of the Forum which was some nice advertising I guess, I just don't think we should be anticipating some big "bucks bump" the way some seem to be.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #154 on: July 26, 2021, 10:29:49 AM »
Is there actually any evidence of NBA success causing collegiate basketball success in the same city, or vice versa?  This has been brought up a ton in the recent weeks and I just don't see it.  NBA basketball and NCAA basketball are just too different.  Without going back too far, DePaul had 2 bids and 2 first round exits during the Bulls era.  CUSA was decent during the Rockets championships and Houston was consistently at the bottom of it. UCLA and the Lakers had a bit of overlap, although it seems to be the outlier and I'm not sure how much one had to do with the other.  They're both mid/low majors, but UTSA and San Francisco haven't done anything while their cities NBA teams thrived.  Miami had one whole bid during the cities "big three" era.  Sure there have been more eyes on the city of Milwaukee concerning basketball than there has been in a long time, and you would occasionally see the MU banner when they would pan around the outside of the Forum which was some nice advertising I guess, I just don't think we should be anticipating some big "bucks bump" the way some seem to be.


Yeah I don't think the Bucks success has, or will, impact Marquette substantially at all.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #155 on: July 26, 2021, 10:40:02 AM »
Brother MU,

Our program is at a turning point. Going into the 2021-2022 season, we had quite a bit of talent and a good recruiting class on the way. We had a Coach who had wandered in the wilderness for seven years and had never maximized the talent he had to get Marquette to what most of us expect of our program.

Coach Wojo was wacked for this reason.

Coming into the year, we obtained the services of Coach we wanted. We went into the Transfer/Fifth Year market for veteran players we wanted. While we are young, pursuing the players we did suggests what our original commentator suggests -- Shaka's expectation and that of the university is WIN NOW!

Not only do we have a well-respected head coach, we also have a city where the NBA team just won the World Championship of basketball. That dispels the notion that Milwaukee is a sort of backwater city for basketball in which nobody wants to play.

If you take location off the table. If you take coaching off the table. If we can't win still, then yes, we are in deep do-do. The expectation with Mosell, Kur et al, is win NOW.

Fans of every school that fires a coach and brings in a new one think their school is at a "turning point." You just have tunnel vision about ours because it's your alma mater ... and that's OK. Just realize that Marquette is not somehow unique.

Again, most folks here think very highly of Buzz Williams. His first season at an ACC school was a disaster and his first year at an SEC school was nowhere near tournament-quality. His first season at Marquette was a success because he stepped into a great situation. Which more resembles the situation Shaka has stepped into at our alma mater?
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

JakeBarnes

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #156 on: July 26, 2021, 10:45:36 AM »
Shaka hasn't even won a game in the 4 months he's been here. We should probably just move on now.

Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #157 on: July 26, 2021, 10:53:24 AM »
Shaka hasn't even won a game in the 4 months he's been here. We should probably just move on now.

With a winning record over 83% and with a championship, an Elite 8 every year, three Final 4s in five years, two F2s, AD Scholl has Joe Champman on speed dial.

TSmith34

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #158 on: July 26, 2021, 10:59:28 AM »
I'm totally onboard if Joe is mic'ed up on the sideline for every game.
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dgies9156

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #159 on: July 26, 2021, 10:59:54 AM »

Yeah I don't think the Bucks success has, or will, impact Marquette substantially at all.

On the surface, the answer is categorically NO, it won't. Players won't suddenly come to Marquette because the Bucks won the NBA.

The question I was trying to address is the broader issue of the folks who find everything possible wrong with Milwaukee. This includes everything from the cold climate, the Chicago-inferiority to our women aren't "California Girls" etc. The compare us to the Raleigh-Durham Metro, Miami, Los Angeles even Houston, Dallas or Miami. We're old. We're post manufacturing and, "who on earth would want to live in Milwaukee?"

The Bucks proved one thing: Talent will flow to opportunity. You can win in Milwaukee, just as you can in Cleveland, Philadelphia, Cincinnati or even Miami and Orlando. People will come to Marquette if there's a reason!

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #160 on: July 26, 2021, 11:04:09 AM »
Is there actually any evidence of NBA success causing collegiate basketball success in the same city, or vice versa?  This has been brought up a ton in the recent weeks and I just don't see it.  NBA basketball and NCAA basketball are just too different.  Without going back too far, DePaul had 2 bids and 2 first round exits during the Bulls era.  CUSA was decent during the Rockets championships and Houston was consistently at the bottom of it. UCLA and the Lakers had a bit of overlap, although it seems to be the outlier and I'm not sure how much one had to do with the other.  They're both mid/low majors, but UTSA and San Francisco haven't done anything while their cities NBA teams thrived.  Miami had one whole bid during the cities "big three" era.  Sure there have been more eyes on the city of Milwaukee concerning basketball than there has been in a long time, and you would occasionally see the MU banner when they would pan around the outside of the Forum which was some nice advertising I guess, I just don't think we should be anticipating some big "bucks bump" the way some seem to be.

None of those schools share an arena with their nba team. But yes,  i doubt it makes a substantial impact. But it certainly doesn't hurt
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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warriorchick

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #161 on: July 26, 2021, 11:13:51 AM »
None of those schools share an arena with their nba team. But yes,  i doubt it makes a substantial impact. But it certainly doesn't hurt

I would have to think that when a recruit is visiting, there may be opportunities for him to "just happen to" run into guys from the Bucks.  Don't they occasionally work out at the Al? Could a recruit's visit to the Fiserv coincide with when the team is there?
Have some patience, FFS.

shoothoops

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #162 on: July 26, 2021, 09:35:54 PM »
Fans of every school that fires a coach and brings in a new one think their school is at a "turning point." You just have tunnel vision about ours because it's your alma mater ... and that's OK. Just realize that Marquette is not somehow unique.

Again, most folks here think very highly of Buzz Williams. His first season at an ACC school was a disaster and his first year at an SEC school was nowhere near tournament-quality. His first season at Marquette was a success because he stepped into a great situation. Which more resembles the situation Shaka has stepped into at our alma mater?

Actually, Buzz’ first season at Virginia Tech was an improvement from a wins standpoint from the prior season. He inherited 3 straight losing seasons, including a 10-42 ACC record. Virginia Tech won exactly 2 conference games the year prior. His 3 NCAA appearances (in 5 seasons) represent almost a quarter of Virginia Tech’s all time NCAA Tourney appearances. Virginia Tech made one NCAA appearance in the prior two decades. Buzz’ Sweet 16 there is one of just two all time there. The other? 1967. He had a winning record and winning conference record in the ACC 4 of 5 seasons.

14-18 (6-12) is what TAMU did the year prior to Buzz. He went 16-14 (10-8) in his first season. You have to go back three more seasons for their last winning conference record prior to that.

bilsu

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #163 on: July 26, 2021, 09:39:39 PM »
We would probably still be playing in the old MECCA, if the Bucks were never in Milwaukee. The Bucks most likely have had a positive effect on MU basketball.

MU82

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #164 on: July 26, 2021, 10:08:03 PM »
Actually, Buzz’ first season at Virginia Tech was an improvement from a wins standpoint from the prior season. He inherited 3 straight losing seasons, including a 10-42 ACC record. Virginia Tech won exactly 2 conference games the year prior. His 3 NCAA appearances (in 5 seasons) represent almost a quarter of Virginia Tech’s all time NCAA Tourney appearances. Virginia Tech made one NCAA appearance in the prior two decades. Buzz’ Sweet 16 there is one of just two all time there. The other? 1967. He had a winning record and winning conference record in the ACC 4 of 5 seasons.

14-18 (6-12) is what TAMU did the year prior to Buzz. He went 16-14 (10-8) in his first season. You have to go back three more seasons for their last winning conference record prior to that.

I actually think we agree.

See, depending on how the season progresses, if this year's team goes 18-15 (including BET) and actually improves as the season goes along but doesn't get to play in the postseason, it could have been a very nice coaching job by Shaka. It will have been a significant improvement over Wojo's last year despite massive turnover and youth, while the culture is being built.

But if you've read this thread, you've seen that there are many Scoopers who think that anything less than an NCAAT appearance will be considered a failure. Even at least one of Shaka's biggest cheerleaders have said it.

If that's the bar, Scoop could be a veeeeerrrrry interesting place come March.

So I wasn't saying Buzz "failed" to improve those programs during his first seasons at each. I was saying (or at least trying to say) that he didn't come within 1,000 miles of an NCAAT bid. Same is true for Wright, Crean, Beard and others in their first seasons. Yet Shaka is expected to make the tourney by some or it will have been an epic fail.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

dgies9156

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #165 on: July 26, 2021, 11:45:16 PM »
We would probably still be playing in the old MECCA, if the Bucks were never in Milwaukee. The Bucks most likely have had a positive effect on MU basketball.

Excellent point.

Agree 100%.

If we were not playing in the MECCA, then someone would have had to cough up $100 million+ for the on-campus Vow of Poverty Arena. We're much better off where we are.


Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #166 on: July 27, 2021, 07:45:21 AM »
Don't get me wrong.  The Bucks' PRESENCE in Milwaukee is definitely helpful.  Having an NBA team in town, with an NBA arena is great for Marquette.

However, that is not what was being debated.  The question was whether the Bucks' SUCCESS will help Marquette.  I am not sure that will be the case.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

brewcity77

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #167 on: July 27, 2021, 08:04:55 AM »
Don't get me wrong.  The Bucks' PRESENCE in Milwaukee is definitely helpful.  Having an NBA team in town, with an NBA arena is great for Marquette.

However, that is not what was being debated.  The question was whether the Bucks' SUCCESS will help Marquette.  I am not sure that will be the case.

Might be different had Matthews stuck around or Crowder joined the Bucks instead of the Suns. I don't think it hurts, but especially with the new ownership, I'm not convinced it helps much.

shoothoops

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #168 on: July 27, 2021, 08:48:04 AM »
I actually think we agree.

See, depending on how the season progresses, if this year's team goes 18-15 (including BET) and actually improves as the season goes along but doesn't get to play in the postseason, it could have been a very nice coaching job by Shaka. It will have been a significant improvement over Wojo's last year despite massive turnover and youth, while the culture is being built.

But if you've read this thread, you've seen that there are many Scoopers who think that anything less than an NCAAT appearance will be considered a failure. Even at least one of Shaka's biggest cheerleaders have said it.

If that's the bar, Scoop could be a veeeeerrrrry interesting place come March.

So I wasn't saying Buzz "failed" to improve those programs during his first seasons at each. I was saying (or at least trying to say) that he didn't come within 1,000 miles of an NCAAT bid. Same is true for Wright, Crean, Beard and others in their first seasons. Yet Shaka is expected to make the tourney by some or it will have been an epic fail.

I think if Shaka can improve Marquette at the same level Buzz improved Virginia Tech based on recent and distant program history, MUBB fans would be thrilled. Obviously that would mean better results for Shaka at MUBB, than Buzz had at Virginia Tech.

What matters is having a consistent winning program almost annually year after year for a long period of time. That’s success. That’s what people want. Competing for league titles, NcAA Tourney wins. Before getting to that, doing it in a shorter 5 year period would be good compared to the recent past.

Some coaches have success right away then drop off a year or two and build long term success. Some take a few years before success. Some do it right away. There are all kinds of ways to do it.

It’s good and healthy to have some expectations and pressure. Obviously with that, there will be unrealistic opinions to ignore as well.

As a program, making the NCAA Tourney and all of those things are annual program expectations regardless of coach and time. Every year. Circumstances can and do vary making that more difficult certain years. Shaka won’t lose his job if he doesn’t make the NCAA’s his first year. But I don’t think this is a do it in 4 or 5 year situation either.

Add some fan expectations, with the strong early Texas recruiting start for Shaka’s replacement there, and some of those super high expectation people are getting restless baed on that combined with lack of bigger recent success. And the Bucks just won an NBA Title. Some will say, why not MUBB?

Summer in Cream City.


MU82

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #169 on: July 27, 2021, 10:55:13 AM »
I think if Shaka can improve Marquette at the same level Buzz improved Virginia Tech based on recent and distant program history, MUBB fans would be thrilled.

One would think. But if one has read this thread, one would be wrong about how many fans would react to that very thing happening at a similar pace.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

JakeBarnes

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #170 on: July 27, 2021, 10:58:08 AM »
So are we going to the Championship or what? So far we have zero home wins. Zero signature wins. Kenpom won't even rate us for 2021-2022 yet.

The Shaka era is a pure disappointment in terms of on-the-court results so far.
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


MU82

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #171 on: July 27, 2021, 10:59:57 AM »
So are we going to the Championship or what? So far we have zero home wins. Zero signature wins. Kenpom won't even rate us for 2021-2022 yet.

The Shaka era is a pure disappointment in terms of on-the-court results so far.

Yep ... lots of settling for mediocrity so far!
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

warriorchick

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #172 on: July 27, 2021, 11:48:26 AM »


However, that is not what was being debated.  The question was whether the Bucks' SUCCESS will help Marquette.  I am not sure that will be the case.

I think it will be helpful given that the success of the team has shown a very positive spotlight on Milwaukee as a place to live.  There has been plenty of "I didn't realize Milwaukee was so cool!" publicity in the past couple of weeks.
Have some patience, FFS.

Newsdreams

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #173 on: July 27, 2021, 01:14:29 PM »
So are we going to the Championship or what? So far we have zero home wins. Zero signature wins. Kenpom won't even rate us for 2021-2022 yet.

The Shaka era is a pure disappointment in terms of on-the-court results so far.
I think it will come down to the result of the scrimmage with the TBT team.

Jockey

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #174 on: July 27, 2021, 03:56:45 PM »
Back to Shaka, I say why wait for 5 years. Fire his @ss after the 1st loss. What better proof will you need that the guy can't coach.