MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: duanewade on July 20, 2021, 08:59:17 PM

Title: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: duanewade on July 20, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2021, 09:04:28 PM
Market uz up tadey, hey?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 20, 2021, 10:11:03 PM
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)

What's the "or else" here? What will the consequences be if he doesn't make the NCAA tournament? What will you personally do?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on July 20, 2021, 10:12:36 PM
Over/under on Porter Moser Lifespan in Norman?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2021, 10:17:13 PM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Viper on July 20, 2021, 10:58:56 PM
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TallTitan34 on July 20, 2021, 11:19:22 PM
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o84sv2u7KSHKbwPza/200.gif)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: tower912 on July 21, 2021, 06:34:41 AM
 I do not expect an >.500 season.  Shaka is a proven coach, but he doesn't walk on water.   With the near complete roster turnover and the lack of proven D1 talent, my only expectation is improvement through the season.   

In other words, he gets a pass from me for a while.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: mileskishnish72 on July 21, 2021, 07:38:35 AM


In other words, he gets a pass from me for a while.

Christmas?
February?
Or just a trend?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 21, 2021, 08:59:26 AM
I get it. We're all frustrated because the program sucks. Should be an interesting year. We have only 2 out of 12 players who actually played together and I'll leave it to the stat gurus here to tell us how many minutes Greg and Justin actually played together. So Shaka is essentially working with a blank slate and I'm looking forward to see if he can fit all the pieces to build a team rather than 5 to 9 guys do their own thing. I'll give him 3 seasons.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Ruby on July 21, 2021, 09:02:46 AM
Hired the coach. Now just add water and "whalla!", instant Final Four!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Retire0 on July 21, 2021, 09:14:43 AM
Hired the coach. Now just add water and "whalla!", instand Final Four!

(https://i.imgur.com/AjunubI.jpg)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on July 21, 2021, 09:16:33 AM
Over/under on Porter Moser Lifespan in Norman?

My guess is 8 years minimum & likely retires there, widely considered the best coach in program history. He would have been a better fit at MU, but I would be shocked if he wasn't successful at OU.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: NCMUFan on July 21, 2021, 09:59:31 AM
I think Shaka deserves some latitude. 
No reason to stress out this season.
This season for me, victories will be smiles  :), but defeats just shoulder shrugs  :-\.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2021, 10:09:59 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/AjunubI.jpg)

The Cubs did a Craig Kimbrell beard chia pet giveaway this season....
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: dad's couch on July 21, 2021, 10:26:30 AM
Why should our expectations be any less than a NCAA Tournament bid? A lot of people have said on this board we are a premier program. UNC, Texas and Indiana hired new coaches and are in the early pre season rankings.  Schools like Minnesota, Utah and DePaul are talking about building the program. So is Marquette a program similar to Indiana and Texas or Minnesota and DePaul?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Goose on July 21, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
I'm not a 10,000+ post guy, but no pass for Shaka from this guy. Plus, the bar is being raised by me because of the national attention the Bucks brought to the city. I could recruit a top team right now at MU.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 10:48:01 AM
I'm not a 10,000+ post guy, guy no pass for Shaka from this guy. Plus, the bar is being raised by me because of the national attention the Bucks brought to the city. I could recruit a top team right now at MU.

So if Shaka doesn't get us to the NCAA tournament this season, it'll be the first "red flag" about his coaching ability, Goose?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2021, 11:08:04 AM
I could recruit a top team right now at MU.

Yeah you seem like a guy 18 year olds would really respond to.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Goose on July 21, 2021, 11:09:56 AM
82

I said when Shaka was hired that there was no free pass for him.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2021, 11:13:42 AM
Why should our expectations be any less than a NCAA Tournament bid?

Because some of us are actually realistic?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2021, 11:25:21 AM
Why should our expectations be any less than a NCAA Tournament bid? A lot of people have said on this board we are a premier program. UNC, Texas and Indiana hired new coaches and are in the early pre season rankings.  Schools like Minnesota, Utah and DePaul are talking about building the program. So is Marquette a program similar to Indiana and Texas or Minnesota and DePaul?

I think there's a difference between where we were at the beginning of the offseason and where we are now. When Shaka was hired,  it would have been reasonable to expect an NCAAT appearance. He could have focused on keeping the better pieces of the roster and gone out and gotten a bunch of top transfers. That's what UNC, Texas, and Indiana did.  It's a viable win now strategy though it is harder to sustain over multiple seasons.

Shaka chose a different path. He let most of the roster go elsewhere and filled his team with freshmen and sophomores who have yet to accomplish much (or anything at all in most cases)  at the collegiate level but show promise. He topped it off with two senior transfers who aren't superstars but will establish the blueprint of a defensive culture that the young guys will learn. We'll take some lumps this season but we'll be building to sustainable success.

In short, my expectations changed from March to now.

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: The Equalizer on July 21, 2021, 11:30:43 AM
My view is that our floor for this season is that we should be no worse than we were last season--~.500 overall, and at worst 9-11 in the Big East. 

First, stop making mental comparisons about Shaka's first-year performance to a projected "what could have been" had Carton and Garcia stuck around another year.  Here's what is reasonable: compare it to the actual performance that Wojo delivered with Carton and Garcia as newcomers, and then ask if Shaka should be expected to routinely duplicate that? 

Second, for all the complaints about lack of experience, we replaced our most experienced players (Koby, Jamal and Theo) with four other experienced players (Kur, Morsell, OMP, and Kolek). Compared to last year, we're not lacking experience.  And shouldn't we expect Shaka's experienced recruits to be at minimum equal to what Wojo's did last year?  Again, why would we expect a step backward?

Third, many keep arguing that these players hadn't played together before, but that's a recycled Projo argument. Nobody gave Wojo a pass on this. Every team takes in freshmen and transfers, and a good coach should get them playing together by the time the season starts, and to continue to improve over the course of the year.


Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: LAZER on July 21, 2021, 11:39:34 AM
I think there's a difference between where we were at the beginning of the offseason and where we are now. When Shaka was hired,  it would have been reasonable to expect an NCAAT appearance. He could have focused on keeping the better pieces of the roster and gone out and gotten a bunch of top transfers. That's what UNC, Texas, and Indiana did.  It's a viable win now strategy though it is harder to sustain over multiple seasons.

Shaka chose a different path. He let most of the roster go elsewhere and filled his team with freshmen and sophomores who have yet to accomplish much (or anything at all in most cases)  at the collegiate level but show promise. He topped it off with two senior transfers who aren't superstars but will establish the blueprint of a defensive culture that the young guys will learn. We'll take some lumps this season but we'll be building to sustainable success.

In short, my expectations changed from March to now.
Happy to take the lumps, if there is some success in recruiting.  I have concerns that Shaka's recruiting success will be much closer to what Crean, Buzz, and Wojo did vs what Shaka did at Texas.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 11:40:21 AM
No passes here.
I don't have lofty expectations by any stretch, but if he can't meet lowered expectations (and by that I mean some form of postseason play), then it's not a great sign.
The idea we should be satisfied with the kind of season that got the last guy fired, or even worse, seems antithetical to Marquette's aspirations.
 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 21, 2021, 11:45:36 AM
I think a lot of people here are going to be disappointed at the end of the year.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 11:46:43 AM
I think a lot of people here are going to be disappointed at the end of the year.

Par for the course.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2021, 11:54:21 AM
He could have focused on keeping the better pieces of the roster and gone out and gotten a bunch of top transfers. That's what UNC, Texas, and Indiana did.  It's a viable win now strategy though it is harder to sustain over multiple seasons.

Is it really harder to sustain?  Don't all coaches (new or old) at the end of the season have to try to keep their best pieces around and then try to get some good recruits and top transfers?  It's kinda the new normal in NCAAB 2021.

I get that Shaka may have wanted buy-in, and maybe he even really wanted everyone to stay.  But it is a disappointing that MU had to push the reset button this offseason with the roster.

I think a lot of people here are going to be disappointed at the end of the year.

Hey, I'm disappointed now!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 11:54:33 AM
What a silly thread.  All you have to do is look at some of the other's that the OP has started to get a feel for the quality of content that will ensue.   My inner conspiracy theorist thinks it's just a burner for one of the mods used to stir the pot every once and a while.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
What a silly thread.  All you have to do is look at some of the other's that the OP has started to get a feel for the quality of content that will ensue.   My inner conspiracy theorist thinks it's just a burner for one of the mods used to stir the pot every once and a while.

Discussing expectations for the upcoming season is "silly?"
Huh.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 12:14:11 PM
Discussing expectations for the upcoming season is "silly?"
Huh.

Starting a thread saying that year one under a new coach after 8 players left, having 9 underclassmen is "win now" territory.   Yea, I think that's silly.  This is kinda what he does, start a thread with a take just hot enough to not make it obvious you're a troll, usually with a rant about 3 times longer than necessary to convey the message, and then never post on that thread again. Just looking through his history for 5 minutes, of his last 10 threads started, he has more than one post in exactly one of them. 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: tower912 on July 21, 2021, 12:18:20 PM
So he vents his spleen and gets out.  Meh.  This thread was going to happen eventually.   And it is absolutely fair to discuss expectations.   More to the point, when have we NOT discussed expectations?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 12:23:22 PM
So he vents his spleen and gets out.  Meh.  This thread was going to happen eventually.   And it is absolutely fair to discuss expectations.   More to the point, when have we NOT discussed expectations?

I'm not judging or anything, any level of fandom should be supported, it's just when you see who the author of a thread is, you kinda know what's gonna be in it.

Tower starts a thread and there's a pun in the title.  MU just played a game.
TAMU starts a thread.  Detailed analysis of some statistic.
Herman starts a thread.  Some loose connection to MU that probably didn't warrant it's own thread (do we really need a separate thread for Ellis' football highlights?)
duanewade starts a thread, I know I'm gonna have to put the monitor on the ceiling so I can still read it when I'm rolling my eyes. 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 12:25:21 PM
Starting a thread saying that year one under a new coach after 8 players left, having 9 underclassmen is "win now" territory.   Yea, I think that's silly.  This is kinda what he does, start a thread with a take just hot enough to not make it obvious you're a troll, usually with a rant about 3 times longer than necessary to convey the message, and then never post on that thread again. Just looking through his history for 5 minutes, of his last 10 threads started, he has more than one post in exactly one of them.

I mean, who assembled the roster? You're basically saying Shaka should be given a pass because the roster he put together can't be expected to compete. Now who's being silly?

You can disagree with his conclusion and "win now" stuff, but discussing what should be the reasonable expectations for the season ahead seems just about the least silly thing that happens on Scoop.
Would you prefer more green weenies, haikus and ainas?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 12:29:15 PM
I mean, who assembled the roster? You're basically saying Shaka should be given a pass because the roster he put together can't be expected to compete. Now who's being silly?

You can disagree with his conclusion and "win now" stuff, but discussing what should be the reasonable expectations for the season ahead seems just about the least silly thing that happens on Scoop.
Would you prefer more green weenies, haikus and ainas?

Given the way he assembled the roster, making it very clear that he did not elect to pursue a "win now" strategy, and rather a bring in mostly young talent and let them develop together strategy, yes I do think he should get a pass year 1.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: warriorchick on July 21, 2021, 12:31:55 PM
Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll? 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 21, 2021, 12:32:54 PM
Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll?

+1
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: The Equalizer on July 21, 2021, 12:43:14 PM
I'm not judging or anything, any level of fandom should be supported, it's just when you see who the author of a thread is, you kinda know what's gonna be in it.


But it's a lazy response to ignore the argument and immediately jump to an ad hominem attack on the poster.

Fundamentally, he makes a good point. Many are sandbagging now so they can feel satisfied that regardless of where we wind up, the end result will be "above expectations." 

The question that he puts on trial: If Wojo's combination of recruiting and coaching gave us a .500 record and warranted dismissal, how can you reasonably expect Shaka to underperform that? 


Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
But it's a lazy response to ignore the argument and immediately jump to an ad hominem attack on the poster.

Fundamentally, he makes a good point. Many are sandbagging now so they can feel satisfied that regardless of where we wind up, the end result will be "above expectations." 

The question that he puts on trial: If Wojo's combination of recruiting and coaching gave us a .500 record and warranted dismissal, how can you reasonably expect Shaka to underperform that?

Did you read the OP? He does not make good points.  Let me summarize for you.  Because Kentucky wins with Freshman, our underclassmen should be able to win too.  The upside of the walk-on.  If we don't get a bid this year, Shaka will have been a bad hire.  If Shaka doesn't land 1 recruit we should have hired someone else.  Those are well into hot take territory and bordering on troll level.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 12:48:44 PM
82

I said when Shaka was hired that there was no free pass for him.

Duly noted, Goose. Thanks!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: tower912 on July 21, 2021, 12:49:33 PM
The OP is who he is.  That does not mean the issue shouldn't be discussed.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 21, 2021, 12:51:36 PM
The question that he puts on trial: If Wojo's combination of recruiting and coaching gave us a .500 record and warranted dismissal, how can you reasonably expect Shaka to underperform that? 


Because outside of a couple graduate transfers, they are pretty young. 

Look, I am not sure if in the end they are going to be worse than last year, but I am expecting improvement throughout the year.  (Which is generally the opposite directions of Wojo's teams.)  If in the end they ARE worse record wise, but are trending in the right direction, I am fine with that.

An NCAA bid would be fantastic.  But IMO that would way exceed what I am expecting.

I am expecting way more next year and the year after.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: mileskishnish72 on July 21, 2021, 12:52:46 PM
I'm not judging or anything, any level of fandom should be supported, it's just when you see who the author of a thread is, you kinda know what's gonna be in it.

Tower starts a thread and there's a pun in the title.  MU just played a game.
TAMU starts a thread.  Detailed analysis of some statistic.
Herman starts a thread.  Some loose connection to MU that probably didn't warrant it's own thread (do we really need a separate thread for Ellis' football highlights?)
duanewade starts a thread, I know I'm gonna have to put the monitor on the ceiling so I can still read it when I'm rolling my eyes.

Funny stuff, Over.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: dad's couch on July 21, 2021, 12:56:59 PM
So he vents his spleen and gets out.  Meh.  This thread was going to happen eventually.   And it is absolutely fair to discuss expectations.   More to the point, when have we NOT discussed expectations?

Texas lost 2 stars to the NBA draft, 5 to the transfer portal and its entire recruiting class that Shaka amassed. And yet they are a pre season top10 maybe 5. So far Beard's recruiting has been really good with a 5 star in 22. Beard has owned the portal at Tech and now Texas. I think he's in for long term success.

Shaka decided to go with 9 freshmen along with 3 seniors. Figure the odds that 3 will transfer and we lose the 3 seniors. That's 6 of 13. Another six coming in so in essence another rebuild, especially if one or two of our top players leave.

The new normal is winning the portal which means worry about the season ahead of you.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: tower912 on July 21, 2021, 01:02:46 PM
Good for them.   

When I set my personal expectations for a team, I take Marquette off the front of the jersey.   What would I expect the results to be for this roster if the jersey said anything other than Marquette.   That served me pretty well under Wojo.
   Looking at this roster as objectively as I can, I do not have high expectations.   Too much youth.   Too few proven scorers.   I would expect any roster so composed to struggle.
   The keys for me will be improvement, how many return, and what recruits are landed.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 01:04:07 PM
Given the way he assembled the roster, making it very clear that he did not elect to pursue a "win now" strategy, and rather a bring in mostly young talent and let them develop together strategy, yes I do think he should get a pass year 1.

Yeah, the whole "developing young talent" thing kind of goes out the window when you bring in two grad transfers and continue to pursue others, even this month. Does it make sense for a coach whose mission is to develop young talen to be trying to land Cedric Russell in mid-July?  What does adding Russell do to help the "develop young talent together" strategy?
I believe Shaka wants to win, and win now, and that's why he was going after Russell and others like him. And you're making excuses for him before the season even begins.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 21, 2021, 01:06:28 PM
I guess this is the year we find out how much 'playing together for years' actually matters, aina?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 01:11:46 PM
Yeah, the whole "developing young talent" thing kind of goes out the window when you bring in two grad transfers and continue to pursue others, even this month. Does it make sense for a coach whose mission is to develop young talen to be trying to land Cedric Russell in mid-July?  What does adding Russell do to help the "develop young talent together" strategy?
I believe Shaka wants to win, and win now, and that's why he was going after Russell and others like him. And you're making excuses for him before the season even begins.

Until you look at what the likely roles of those grad transfers will be.  If Shaka had landed Carr and Kofi, my expectations would be much different.  Shaka went out and got 2 defensive players that are fairly limited on the offensive end.  Combine that with one top 100 incoming freshman (per 247), and I don't see much success this year, but instead the potential for success in the following years, I don't see that as making excuses, I see that as having realistic expectations given the quality and experience currently on the roster.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 01:19:05 PM
Many are sandbagging now so they can feel satisfied that regardless of where we wind up, the end result will be "above expectations."

Maybe "many" are doing this, but I know that I'm not "sandbagging."

I think for some of us, it's about the definition of "free pass."

If we improve significantly from November to March, both as a team and as individual players, and if our culture has noticeably changed from Wojo-soft to Buzz-tough (for lack of better terms), I will consider the season a success, regardless of our record.

In my view, me considering that a success does not amount to a "free pass."

Because if we are a hot mess all season, if we don't improve noticeably, if it just looks like Wojo 2.0 out there, Shaka will not get a "free pass" from me.

Although for me, as with most (if not all) other Scoopers, there's no real "or else" to that lack of a free pass. I mean, what? I'm gonna make negative comments on Scoop? I'm gonna put him "on notice"? Oh no!

I'm a pretty big optimist, but I'm also a realist. Most of us think Buzz is a darn good coach, but he didn't go to the NCAAs his first two seasons at either Va Tech or TAMU. Wright didn't his first 3 seasons at Nova. Crean didn't his first seasons at Marquette, Indiana or Georgia. Beard, to whom Shaka will be compared endlessly by the fine folks of Texas, didn't do squat his first season at Texas Tech. The Great Porter Moser didn't get to the NCAA tournament his first 13 seasons as a head coach. Etc, etc, etc. So we'll see.

After coaching Texas to a 6-seed with Barnes' players his first year there (and losing in the first round), Shaka went 11-22 his next season.

11-22!

But he's got to get to the NCAA tournament this season at Marquette or it'll be considered a failure ... and anybody who disagrees is giving him a "free pass"?

I can't agree with that, but others can knock themselves out.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 01:28:33 PM
Until you look at what the likely roles of those grad transfers will be.  If Shaka had landed Carr and Kofi, my expectations would be much different.  Shaka went out and got 2 defensive players that are fairly limited on the offensive end.

I guess if you're willing to believe that Shaka sold Morsell and Kuath on the idea that they were coming here as mentors with limited playing time, I'd buy it. But I imagine it's more likely he recruited them with the promise of significant playing opportunities, not just to teach a bunch of freshmen the ropes.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on July 21, 2021, 01:35:56 PM
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)

TL,DR

I assume it was dumb, though.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 01:39:39 PM
I guess if you're willing to believe that Shaka sold Morsell and Kuath on the idea that they were coming here as mentors with limited playing time, I'd buy it. But I imagine it's more likely he recruited them with the promise of significant playing opportunities, not just to teach a bunch of freshmen the ropes.

Why can't they play significant minutes/playiong opportunities and teach the Freshman the ropes?  Both had usages below 20 last season, so even it they both bump those numbers up there are still going to be a lot of shots/minutes for the young guys.  They can also be "the guys" during the games, and teach during practices. 

There were a record number of transfers this year, I would have to think that the prospect of significant opportunities for a major conference team, with a coach that has a FF, playing in an NBA arena, would be able to attract better players than Morsell and Kur.  If Shaka were truly in a win now mindset, I think he would have done more big game hunting.   
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 01:49:11 PM
There were a record number of transfers this year, I would have to think that the prospect of significant opportunities for a major conference team, with a coach that has a FF, playing in an NBA arena, would be able to attract better players than Morsell and Kur.  If Shaka were truly in a win now mindset, I think he would have done more big game hunting.

This is an entirely circular argument. And one that goes against known facts.
We know Shaka went after some very high-end talent on the transfer market. Tre Mitchell, Noah Gurley, Tari Eason, Noah Locke, Boogie Ellis, etc.
Shaka did plenty of big game hunting. He just didn't score many kills. But the fact he took so many shots means he wanted to build a winning roster right away.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 02:02:19 PM
Then I guess we got a real problem, because if Shaka is in win now mode, and offering the cream of the crop, and all he can land is Morsell and Kur, that's worrying. 

I think what's more likely is that all high end talent that we were linked with were more of the "reaches out", or "makes contact" variety, to gauge the players interest level in playing for a team not currently constructed to make the tournament, and where there are going to be growing pains because the coach is choosing the strategy of focusing on developing the future, and most players weren't interested.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 02:18:41 PM
Scoop is gonna be a very interesting place this season if the team isn't postseason-worthy ... and if all the Extreme Nojos who proclaimed Shaka to be "the guy" turn on him immediately to become Shaka Attakas.

I want us to win and win big, so I hope the above scenario has no chance of playing out. But it will be eye-opening if it does.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2021, 02:26:45 PM
This is an entirely circular argument. And one that goes against known facts.
We know Shaka went after some very high-end talent on the transfer market. Tre Mitchell, Noah Gurley, Tari Eason, Noah Locke, Boogie Ellis, etc.
Shaka did plenty of big game hunting. He just didn't score many kills. But the fact he took so many shots means he wanted to build a winning roster right away.

Were we linked to Tre Mitchell or Boogie Ellis? I don't recall seeing us on any lists of theirs. I wouldn't call Tari Eason "big game". Locke and Gurley we pursued and I would consider them top 75 transfers this offseason but in the back half of the top 75.

Shaka actually hunted very little big game this offseason which I was surprised by. This is only one site's opinion but look at CBS Sports top 85 transfer list. Here are the only players on the list that Shaka was linked to:

#12 DeVante Jones
#21 Quincy Guerrier
#38 Noah Locke
#53 Noah Gurley
#52 Darryl Morsell
#67 Cedric Russell

Meanwhile, Shaka was linked to over a dozen other transfers that didn't crack this list including some that didn't crack anybody's top transfer list. This was a deliberate decision by Shaka to not pursue the top talent in the transfer portal. I think we will see that Shaka's goal is to recruit players who will buy into the culture he is building, not necessarily chase the top rated talent.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 02:29:50 PM
Then I guess we got a real problem, because if Shaka is in win now mode, and offering the cream of the crop, and all he can land is Morsell and Kur, that's worrying. 

I think what's more likely is that all high end talent that we were linked with were more of the "reaches out", or "makes contact" variety, to gauge the players interest level in playing for a team not currently constructed to make the tournament, and where there are going to be growing pains because the coach is choosing the strategy of focusing on developing the future, and most players weren't interested.

I'm not really too worried about all that. It was a very competitive transfer market, and you're going to take way more shots than you hit (unless you're Chris Beard, apparently).
But I think the fact Shaka was going after high-end talent belies the argument that he's in full-on rebuild mode and content to lose with a bunch of freshmen.
Also, we were on some of those guys' final lists (Gurley, Russell), so it clearly went beyond just making contact.

Anyhow, we've talked this to death, so I'll stop.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2021, 02:32:47 PM
The question that he puts on trial: If Wojo's combination of recruiting and coaching gave us a .500 record and warranted dismissal, how can you reasonably expect Shaka to underperform that?

Because Wojo was in his seventh year and starting his third recruiting cycle at Marquette.

Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2021, 02:34:30 PM
Is it really harder to sustain?  Don't all coaches (new or old) at the end of the season have to try to keep their best pieces around and then try to get some good recruits and top transfers?  It's kinda the new normal in NCAAB 2021.

This is a good question. With the new world order, my way of thinking may be completely obsolete. We will have to see. Personally, I think we will still see more players staying with their teams (assuming no coaching change) than we see leave.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 21, 2021, 02:36:03 PM
I'm not really too worried about all that. It was a very competitive transfer market, and you're going to take way more shots than you hit (unless you're Chris Beard, apparently).
But I think the fact Shaka was going after high-end talent belies the argument that he's in full-on rebuild mode and content to lose with a bunch of freshmen.
Also, we were on some of those guys' final lists (Gurley, Russell), so it clearly went beyond just making contact.

Anyhow, we've talked this to death, so I'll stop.

Isn't the transfer market going to extremely competitive every year though? 

If the scenario you presented is correct (which again, I don't think it is, see TAMUs post for a better breakdown), going oh-for among the top tier talent, would be a very worrying sign for Shaka. 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: panda on July 21, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Justin Lewis will make significant strides this season.

Joplin and Ellis are both freshmen who will contribute right away. Ellis is going to be a star.

I’ll need to see how this team gets after it on the defensive end, but I do believe a lot of posters are reverting back to their default low expectations.

This is a well constructed roster and one that, if they embrace getting dirty on the defensive end, can grind out wins and greatly improve as the season goes on. (Refreshing, I know.)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 21, 2021, 02:47:41 PM
Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll?

....its an addiction and the only cure is a winning basketball program.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 21, 2021, 03:09:14 PM
....its an addiction and the only cure is a winning basketball program.

hahah TRUE.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Viper on July 21, 2021, 03:25:32 PM
Hired the coach. Now just add water and "whalla!", instand Final Four!
that may be the recipe/result at Texas
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 21, 2021, 03:34:44 PM
I have no expectations what so ever. What I do know is that change was necessary. Now let's see what they can do. We'll know soon enough.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: NCMUFan on July 21, 2021, 04:30:08 PM
Do you see poaching stars from lower conferences to higher conferences the trend.
Big East stars head to ACC.
Mountain West and AAC to Big East?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bananahammock on July 21, 2021, 04:32:03 PM
Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Clemson was a 7 seed in the NCAA
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: The Equalizer on July 21, 2021, 05:11:51 PM
Because Wojo was in his seventh year and starting his third recruiting cycle at Marquette.

Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes.

Except Shaka is not starting his first season. It will be his 13th year as a head coach, including six at another high major.  He's already a known commodity to the AAU programs, the HS coaches, top recruits, etc.  He's exactly the type of guy that should be able to fill a roster with players who can win right away.  Especially if he has playing time to offer.

If we had hired yet another unproven assistant in his first D1 coaching job or some low-major coach that pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament, then, yes, I could see things getting worse before they get better. 

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: willie warrior on July 21, 2021, 05:16:17 PM
Crean sucks
As does No Dick
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2021, 05:46:55 PM
Except Shaka is not starting his first season. It will be his 13th year as a head coach, including six at another high major.  He's already a known commodity to the AAU programs, the HS coaches, top recruits, etc.  He's exactly the type of guy that should be able to fill a roster with players who can win right away.  Especially if he has playing time to offer.

If we had hired yet another unproven assistant in his first D1 coaching job or some low-major coach that pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament, then, yes, I could see things getting worse before they get better.

I think you underestimate the amount of time most coaches, even veteran coaches,
 need to build a program. I think giving Shaka at least two years before breaking out the pitchforks is reasonable.

But still, I answered your question. Wojo was fired because of a poor resume built over seven years. Not because of an individual poor season. If Shaka duplicates last year's record,  it won't be an apples to apples comparison and he won't be fired.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 07:08:26 PM
Wojo wasn't paid $8 million to go away, and Shaka wasn't paid whatever he was paid to move north, so the program could tank a season or two in the hopes a bunch of borderline top 100 freshmen become the core of a title contender.
Shaka was hired to win ASAP, and I fully believe he wants to win ASAP.

How much time does it take to build a program? Ask Juwan Howard. Ask Chris Beard. Heck, ask Rick Pitino.
Jeez, does anyone think UNC, Arizona and Indiana fans would be cool with a coach not trying to win?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: panda on July 21, 2021, 07:35:58 PM
Clemson was a 7 seed in the NCAA

Wins over bama and FSU early on boosted their resume, but they were a mediocre team. Very ugly aesthetically too.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 21, 2021, 08:49:25 PM
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)

You’re good at this
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 79Warrior on July 21, 2021, 09:47:46 PM
Because Wojo was in his seventh year and starting his third recruiting cycle at Marquette.

Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes.

Exactly
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: PorkysButthole on July 21, 2021, 09:56:49 PM
Porky is with the OP on this.   No excuses!  Shaka has the coaching chops and experience to deliver results and should.   If they don't make the NCAA next year it will be disappointing period.  Porky thinks we can all agree that any year we don't make the NCAA's is disappointing, regardless of the overall state of the program, whether the coach is experienced or not, has a new roster of mostly underclassmen or a cohesive unit that's played together for 3+ seasons.   If Porky's being honest, any year we don't win the whole damn thing is disappointing, let alone merely making the tournament, but given the last 7 years or whatever it was, Porky will settle for just being in the field.  That said, these coaches have a really difficult job and competition for talent is incredibly intense.

As frustrating as the WOJO era was, too many folks on this board seemed to believe that our talent level was incredible and if anyone other than WOJO was the head coach, we'd have been a shoo in for top 3 in the BE and at least a 6 seed every year.   The reality was far from it and our talent level was at best middle of the pack in conf. and probably closer to the lower third.   In no way is Porky defending WOJO.   No doubt he needed to to go, but the idea that we had incredible talent these last 7 years that the staff simply failed to develop Porky doesn't buy.  Why doesn't it ever occur to anyone on here that our talent level just hasn't been all that great and perhaps most of those players hit their ceiling?  That's Porky's POV.   At the end of the day, the players are the ones that win or lose.  The coach can only do so much.  Hopefully Shaka's players will be better than those in the recent past.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 10:30:13 PM
Except Shaka is not starting his first season. It will be his 13th year as a head coach, including six at another high major.  He's already a known commodity to the AAU programs, the HS coaches, top recruits, etc.  He's exactly the type of guy that should be able to fill a roster with players who can win right away.  Especially if he has playing time to offer.

If we had hired yet another unproven assistant in his first D1 coaching job or some low-major coach that pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament, then, yes, I could see things getting worse before they get better.

Do you think Buzz Williams is a good coach?

If so, why? He didn't win at VaTech until Year 3, and he did not win in his first two years at Texas A&M.

If not, never mind my question ... though I could give plenty of other examples of "proven" high-major coaches who didn't win big (or very much at all, really) after changing schools.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 11:00:32 PM
Do you think Buzz Williams is a good coach?

If so, why? He didn't win at VaTech until Year 3, and he did not win in his first two years at Texas A&M.

But both VaTech and A&M won more games in Buzz's first season than the season before he was hired. And the Hokies went 20-15 (including 10-8 in a good ACC) in Buzz's second season.

Quote
If not, never mind my question ... though I could give plenty of other examples of "proven" high-major coaches who didn't win big (or very much at all, really) after changing schools.

Sure, and I could name plenty of examples of coaches who did win after changing schools.
I don't think many, if any, of us are expecting MU to "win big" this year, but why is unreasonable to expect the team to be competitive?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 11:37:17 PM
But both VaTech and A&M won more games in Buzz's first season than the season before he was hired. And the Hokies went 20-15 (including 10-8 in a good ACC) in Buzz's second season.

Oh, I thought we were talking about making the NCAA tournament. Here was the OP's second line: No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament. Goose, as bullish on Shaka as any Scooper, came right out and said today that he expects a tourney appearance and won't give a "free pass" if Shaka fails to deliver. But if the bar is only to beat Wojo's previous losing season, or just to be a couple/few games over .500 with no NCAAs, sure, I could see that happening.

Sure, and I could name plenty of examples of coaches who did win after changing schools.
I don't think many, if any, of us are expecting MU to "win big" this year, but why is unreasonable to expect the team to be competitive?

I think it's very reasonable to expect the team to be competitive. I expect us to "compete" -- work hard, play aggressive D, make the other team earn everything they get -- and I expect us to improve as the season goes along.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2021, 11:48:00 PM
Wojo wasn't paid $8 million to go away, and Shaka wasn't paid whatever he was paid to move north, so the program could tank a season or two in the hopes a bunch of borderline top 100 freshmen become the core of a title contender.
Shaka was hired to win ASAP, and I fully believe he wants to win ASAP.

Wojo was paid ~$8 million to go away because MU was given the choice between having someone else pay for it now and pressing the reset button a year early or risk having to pay ~$6 million for him to go away next year and be another year away from being relevant. Was an easy choice. Those in charge understand it is a process.

How much time does it take to build a program? Ask Juwan Howard. Ask Chris Beard. Heck, ask Rick Pitino.

Juwan Howard didn't need to build a program, Beilein built it for him and he was worse in his first season than Beilein was in his last.

Rick Pitino took over a team that had won its crappy conference 4 out of the 5 previous seasons. Cluess ran Iona for 10 seasons and in 8 of them, the Gaels finished higher in KenPom than Pitino did in his first season.

Chris Beard is a unicorn but even he needed more than one season to get Tech to the NCAA tournament (and Tubby was better in his last season than Wojo was in his).

But both VaTech and A&M won more games in Buzz's first season than the season before he was hired. And the Hokies went 20-15 (including 10-8 in a good ACC) in Buzz's second season.

Both VaTech and A&M dropped in KenPom in Buzz' first year from the season before. VaTech barely (literally by 1 spot). TAMU significantly (40 spots). Buzz needed two years in Blacksburg and it's looking like he's going to need at least 4 in College Station.

Jeez, does anyone think UNC, Arizona and Indiana fans would be cool with a coach not trying to win?

Who said anything about not trying to win? Smart is not a coach who is going to win by assembling a different collection of 5-star freshmen and top transfers every season. He is going to win by establishing a well-defined culture/system and recruiting players that buy into what he's doing and develop over multiple years. Both ways work and teams that win championships tend to have elements of both. No one is saying that Shaka isn't trying to win, just that it might take more than a season for the winning to get to the level we want it to be at.

I don't think many, if any, of us are expecting MU to "win big" this year, but why is unreasonable to expect the team to be competitive?

It's not. It's just that "competitive" which I'm taking to mean barely making the NCAAT, is the likely ceiling for this team. So far any ranking or article I have read from a non-Marquette source has Marquette ranked somewhere between 7th and 11th in the Big East...and the Big East is not that good this season. This is disappointing, I was hoping Shaka would take more of a win-now approach, but he hasn't.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 21, 2021, 11:48:14 PM
Al McGuire only won 8 games his first year at MU, which was four more than the year before.

My prediction for this year is 7-4, 5-15 & 1-1 for 13-20, so my expectations are low.

What I am most interested in is how Shaka does in the current recruiting season. A new coach brings excitement and hope to a program. He can sell dreams without the disappointment of not winning enough. He will have a harder time recruiting the season after this, if MU finishes anything near the 13-20 record I fear. I think the Bucks winning the NBA title should help recruiting, but maybe it does not matter in the end. Wojo, with his boring personality, was able to recruit top 40 classes to MU. I expect no less from Shaka this season. He will not succeed at MU, if he does not have a top 40 recruiting class this year. The commitments Shaka has in November is what I will base my judgement on.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: lawdog77 on July 22, 2021, 06:40:59 AM

My prediction for this year is 7-4, 5-15 & 1-1 for 13-20, so my expectations are low.
If we go 5-15 in the Big East, this will be a MAJOR disappointment for everyone. That's DePaul like numbers. It, to me, means the team didn't improve during the season. I see us hovering around the .500 mark all year., with a winning streak at the end. 7-4 nonconference, 11-9 conference, win a few in the BET. BubbleTeam.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 22, 2021, 07:22:34 AM
Wojo was paid ~$8 million to go away because MU was given the choice between having someone else pay for it now and pressing the reset button a year early or risk having to pay ~$6 million for him to go away next year and be another year away from being relevant. Was an easy choice. Those in charge understand it is a process.

Juwan Howard didn't need to build a program, Beilein built it for him and he was worse in his first season than Beilein was in his last.

Rick Pitino took over a team that had won its crappy conference 4 out of the 5 previous seasons. Cluess ran Iona for 10 seasons and in 8 of them, the Gaels finished higher in KenPom than Pitino did in his first season.

Chris Beard is a unicorn but even he needed more than one season to get Tech to the NCAA tournament (and Tubby was better in his last season than Wojo was in his).

Both VaTech and A&M dropped in KenPom in Buzz' first year from the season before. VaTech barely (literally by 1 spot). TAMU significantly (40 spots). Buzz needed two years in Blacksburg and it's looking like he's going to need at least 4 in College Station.

Who said anything about not trying to win? Smart is not a coach who is going to win by assembling a different collection of 5-star freshmen and top transfers every season. He is going to win by establishing a well-defined culture/system and recruiting players that buy into what he's doing and develop over multiple years. Both ways work and teams that win championships tend to have elements of both. No one is saying that Shaka isn't trying to win, just that it might take more than a season for the winning to get to the level we want it to be at.

It's not. It's just that "competitive" which I'm taking to mean barely making the NCAAT, is the likely ceiling for this team. So far any ranking or article I have read from a non-Marquette source has Marquette ranked somewhere between 7th and 11th in the Big East...and the Big East is not that good this season. This is disappointing, I was hoping Shaka would take more of a win-now approach, but he hasn't.

I disagree. Shaka has 9 4 year players to mold his team and build a foundation for a winning program.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 4everwarriors on July 22, 2021, 07:25:18 AM
Dis 'hole NIL thin' iz gonna kill a skool like MU, hey?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: tower912 on July 22, 2021, 07:40:08 AM
Dis 'hole NIL thin' iz gonna kill a skool like MU, hey?
Right after the bucks get rid of Giannis and get a real coach, aina?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 22, 2021, 07:41:23 AM
Dis 'hole NIL thin' iz gonna kill a skool like MU, hey?

Honestly, I think a lot of people here think it will be beneficial.  But I'm with you here, doc.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 22, 2021, 07:48:23 AM
Dis 'hole NIL thin' iz gonna kill a skool like MU, hey?

Capitalism weeds out the weak
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: brewcity77 on July 22, 2021, 07:58:30 AM
He will not succeed at MU, if he does not have a top 40 recruiting class this year. The commitments Shaka has in November is what I will base my judgement on.

I strongly believe this isn't true anymore. Look at Wojo's 2015 class. Would Heldt have stayed behind Fischer for 2 years if he could've been immediately eligible elsewhere? Would Anim have redshirted as a sophomore, or did he only agree to that because he would've had to sit that year anywhere?

I do believe in building a core, which we have, but from here on the best practice will be getting players that can help you win immediately. Someone like Leon Bond? Absolutely. He's a top-50 guy that will get minutes from the jump and have a chance to step into the Darryl Morsell role as a freshman.

But guys in the 75-150 range that will need to develop? Why take them? They'll leave when they don't play because they don't have to sit out. Build a relationship, but let them go elsewhere, develop, and then take them in a year or two when you've seen if they pan out. That's basically what the staff has already done with Kolek & O-Max. Let someone else develop them, see if there's enough there to play at this level, then take them in.

I think taking no more than 1-3 freshmen in any class is the way to go and fill out the rest of the roster in April with transfers that will help you now, not in 2-3 years. That's the best place to get both long term options like Kolek & O-Max who have college resumes and to get neo-one-and-dones like Kuath & Morsell that are ready to be high major starters now.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Scoop Snoop on July 22, 2021, 08:13:10 AM
I strongly believe this isn't true anymore. Look at Wojo's 2015 class. Would Heldt have stayed behind Fischer for 2 years if he could've been immediately eligible elsewhere? Would Anim have redshirted as a sophomore, or did he only agree to that because he would've had to sit that year anywhere?

I do believe in building a core, which we have, but from here on the best practice will be getting players that can help you win immediately. Someone like Leon Bond? Absolutely. He's a top-50 guy that will get minutes from the jump and have a chance to step into the Darryl Morsell role as a freshman.

But guys in the 75-150 range that will need to develop? Why take them? They'll leave when they don't play because they don't have to sit out. Build a relationship, but let them go elsewhere, develop, and then take them in a year or two when you've seen if they pan out. That's basically what the staff has already done with Kolek & O-Max. Let someone else develop them, see if there's enough there to play at this level, then take them in.

I think taking no more than 1-3 freshmen in any class is the way to go and fill out the rest of the roster in April with transfers that will help you now, not in 2-3 years. That's the best place to get both long term options like Kolek & O-Max who have college resumes and to get neo-one-and-dones like Kuath & Morsell that are ready to be high major starters now.

This dovetails perfectly with the comments from coaches in Gary Parrish's article (CBS Sports.com) on the new recruiting philosophies that have emerged. Bruce Pearl's summed it up nicely by saying that in the past he would "take 3-4" HS kids, but going "now its going to be more like 1-2."
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 22, 2021, 08:18:14 AM
Honestly, I think a lot of people here think it will be beneficial.

A lot of us simply don't know whether or not it will prove to be beneficial to Marquette basketball. We'll have to see how this whole thing develops over time.

But many of us believe that letting college students benefit financially from their own names, images and likenesses is the right thing to do.

Just as letting Black people play MLB and other pro and college sports was the right thing to do, just as letting women benefit from athletic scholarships was the right thing to do, just as letting freshmen participate in college sports at the varsity level was the right thing to do, etc etc etc.

There is always an adjustment period following any major change. Hopefully, Marquette basketball will prove to be one of the beneficiaries of this new world order, which was gonna happen sooner or later no matter what anybody here thinks.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2021, 08:23:04 AM
Personally, I think if everyone else is trying to assemble "superteams" through the transfer market, I think there will be a premium on coaches who can keep rosters together for multiple seasons. I look at the teams making and winning national championships and it's filled with teams that have had players playing together for multiple seasons. Sure they have a transfer or 5-star FR or two as pieces on the team but the majority of the team has been playing for the same program for at least two seasons. Maybe the new rules will change that moving forward but my prediction is that transfer superteams (see Texas) will enjoy plenty of NCAAT appearances but very few trips to the Final Four.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 22, 2021, 08:37:02 AM
A lot of us simply don't know whether or not it will prove to be beneficial to Marquette basketball. We'll have to see how this whole thing develops over time.

But many of us believe that letting college students benefit financially from their own names, images and likenesses is the right thing to do.

Just as letting Black people play MLB and other pro and college sports was the right thing to do, just as letting women benefit from athletic scholarships was the right thing to do, just as letting freshmen participate in college sports at the varsity level was the right thing to do, etc etc etc.

There is always an adjustment period following any major change. Hopefully, Marquette basketball will prove to be one of the beneficiaries of this new world order, which was gonna happen sooner or later no matter what anybody here thinks.


Weird segue into political stuff.

I never said it was bad for the players, just will probably not be as good for Marquette basketball as some around here seem to think.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Scoop Snoop on July 22, 2021, 09:04:08 AM
Honestly, I think a lot of people here think it will be beneficial.  But I'm with you here, doc.

I would love to see Harley Davidson get involved with Marquette's basketball team with advertising.

After a cursory internet review of Harley Davidson's financial status and position in the marketplace, it seems that they have rebounded very nicely from a dark period that was only partially due to Covid. Their new president has impressively turned things around in just one year but market surveys show a long term problem with millennials disinterest in HD's products. This could be a great opportunity for HD and MU. 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 22, 2021, 09:05:32 AM
I would love to see Harley Davidson get involved with Marquette's basketball team with advertising.

After a cursory internet review of Harley Davidson's financial status and position in the marketplace, it seems that they have rebounded very nicely from a dark period that was only partially due to Covid. Their new president has impressively turned things around in just one year but market surveys show a long term problem with millennials disinterest in HD's products. This could be a great opportunity for HD and MU. 


The current batch of players aren't millennials though. 
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 09:18:31 AM
Who said anything about not trying to win? Smart is not a coach who is going to win by assembling a different collection of 5-star freshmen and top transfers every season. He is going to win by establishing a well-defined culture/system and recruiting players that buy into what he's doing and develop over multiple years. Both ways work and teams that win championships tend to have elements of both. No one is saying that Shaka isn't trying to win, just that it might take more than a season for the winning to get to the level we want it to be at.

Quotes from this thread:

"I do not expect an >.500 season."

Q: "Why should our expectations be any less than a NCAA Tournament bid?"
A: Because some of us are actually realistic?

"Given the way he assembled the roster, making it very clear that he did not elect to pursue a "win now" strategy,"

"This was a deliberate decision by Shaka to not pursue the top talent in the transfer portal. I think we will see that Shaka's goal is to recruit players who will buy into the culture he is building, not necessarily chase the top rated talent."

"Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes."


The theme of all these posts is that Shaka is punting on the 2021-22 season in hopes of building something long term. I think that's wrong. I think Shaka wants to win now AND build something long term.
And contrary to what some of you all think, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Now ... who said anything about "assembling a different collection of 5-star freshmen and top transfers every season?"

Quote
Both VaTech and A&M dropped in KenPom in Buzz' first year from the season before. VaTech barely (literally by 1 spot). TAMU significantly (40 spots). Buzz needed two years in Blacksburg and it's looking like he's going to need at least 4 in College Station.

Do teams now hang banners, win trophies and receive rings for KenPom rankings? I'm sure Gonzaga takes great solace in their title game loss knowing that at least they beat Baylor in KenPom.
82 said Buzz's first teams at Tech and A&M lost more than the team before them. They didn't.

As for it taking Buzz four years to win at A&M, that's assuming facts not in evidence.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 22, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Do teams now hang banners, win trophies and receive rings for KenPom rankings? I'm sure Gonzaga takes great solace in their title game loss knowing that at least they beat Baylor in KenPom.
82 said Buzz's first teams at Tech and A&M lost more than the team before them. They didn't.



Do teams now hang banners for winning more games than the season before?

TAMU was simply pointing out that "winning more games" doesn't necessarily mean "improvement" if the games you were winning were simply easier to win.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 22, 2021, 09:35:35 AM
The theme of all these posts is that Shaka is punting on the 2021-22 season in hopes of building something long term. I think that's wrong. I think Shaka wants to win now AND build something long term.
And contrary to what some of you all think, the two aren't mutually exclusive.


I think you are being pedantic about what a "win now strategy" means.  Of course he is trying to do both.  But my guess is that he thinks the best way for Marquette to build a program is through bringing in players who are going to grow within the program rather than get a bunch of players with limited eligibility after this year.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 09:41:28 AM

Do teams now hang banners for winning more games than the season before?

TAMU was simply pointing out that "winning more games" doesn't necessarily mean "improvement" if the games you were winning were simply easier to win.

I'll go over it slow.
82 said Buzz's first teams at those schools won less than their predecessors. I just pointed out that wasn't quite true. Rather than just accept that as fact, TAMU decided to reframe the discussion around KenPom.

This isn't an argument about the value of wins vs KenPom (though we can have that discussion, if you like).
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on July 22, 2021, 09:51:09 AM
Wojo left the cupboard bare, aina?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 09:52:34 AM

I think you are being pedantic about what a "win now strategy" means.  Of course he is trying to do both.  But my guess is that he thinks the best way for Marquette to build a program is through bringing in players who are going to grow within the program rather than get a bunch of players with limited eligibility after this year.

And yet he brought in two, and tried to bring in more, players who wouldn't be here beyond this year. And it sure seems he wanted Dawson and DJ back, two more kids not likely to be here beyond this year.
You're all foisting upon Shaka a strategy that his actions say he's not pursuing.

I agree entirely that he wants to build a culture, and bring in players who buy into that. Nobody here has suggested otherwise. But doing that doesn't require punting on 2021-22.
If MU finishes below .500 this year, battles it out with DePaul for the BE cellar, takes a step back (either in record or KenPom) it won't be because it's all part of Shaka's grand plan. It'll be because the team failed to meet his - and what should be our - expectations.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: brewcity77 on July 22, 2021, 09:59:58 AM
Personally, I think if everyone else is trying to assemble "superteams" through the transfer market, I think there will be a premium on coaches who can keep rosters together for multiple seasons. I look at the teams making and winning national championships and it's filled with teams that have had players playing together for multiple seasons. Sure they have a transfer or 5-star FR or two as pieces on the team but the majority of the team has been playing for the same program for at least two seasons. Maybe the new rules will change that moving forward but my prediction is that transfer superteams (see Texas) will enjoy plenty of NCAAT appearances but very few trips to the Final Four.

I'm hoping the way Shaka is going about things works. Effectively, we have a core of:

PG: Mitchell, Ellis
SG: Kolek, Jones
SF: Joplin, Lewis
PF: Oso, O-Max
C: Itejere

Some of the positions are fluid, but if you can develop those guys, keep most around, and fill in with ready to play freshmen like Bond or Momcilovich or proven transfers like Kuath and Morsell I believe that's the way forward. The most valuable commodities will be the 4-year guys that can contribute in year one.

I also think Marquette might be doing some of the fake recruiting that was talked about at EYBL last weekend. Basically, recruit and offer a kid you don't plan to take so if they pan out elsewhere, you have a relationship built when they transfer and can get to the front of the line. I wonder how many of the vast number of offers we've made recently are truly actionable. My guess is some are trying to seed future transfer options.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MuggsyB on July 22, 2021, 10:02:21 AM
I think we have to see what we actually have talent wise before making definitive expectations for this season.  There are just so many new faces.  I don't think anyone should get "a pass" per se but usually it takes at least one full season and an additional recruiting class to be a team capable of making some noise in the tournament.  I personally look at this as a transition year with the new faces and establishing a culture but we do have a lot of intriguing pieces. 

What I really want to see is how this team competes defensively.  If we can establish ourselves quickly on that end of the floor then anything is possible, even in year 1.  It's just that we have a lot of guys with very little playing experience and unusually it takes time to gel.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 22, 2021, 10:07:40 AM
Wojo left the cupboard bare, aina?

Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 22, 2021, 10:07:58 AM
No one has said Shaka isn't trying to win, just that he's going about it in a different way, and because of that, the people that are saying

Shaka wants to win, and win now

may be in for a disappointing season.  Just because you bring in a grad transfer, doesn't mean that you're not building for the future.  With today's transfer culture, and the ability to assemble on old team through the portal in just 1 offseason, you don't willingly have 9 underclassmen unless you're building something that will take more than a year to finish.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2021, 10:09:45 AM
Quotes from this thread:

"I do not expect an >.500 season."

Q: "Why should our expectations be any less than a NCAA Tournament bid?"
A: Because some of us are actually realistic?

"Given the way he assembled the roster, making it very clear that he did not elect to pursue a "win now" strategy,"

"This was a deliberate decision by Shaka to not pursue the top talent in the transfer portal. I think we will see that Shaka's goal is to recruit players who will buy into the culture he is building, not necessarily chase the top rated talent."

"Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes."


The theme of all these posts is that Shaka is punting on the 2021-22 season in hopes of building something long term. I think that's wrong. I think Shaka wants to win now AND build something long term.
And contrary to what some of you all think, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Not a single one of those quotes says anything like Shaka isn't trying to win. Shaka is absolutely trying to win. What these quotes say is that the way he is going about it is by recruiting players who fit his system, will buy into the culture he's creating, and will develop over more than one season. The way he is not going about it is by recruiting players purely for their talent and then fitting the pieces together (which there is nothing wrong with by the way. I'm not advocating for one over the other, just acknowledging what Shaka has put an emphasis on). No one said anything about punting the season. Some of us just recognize that the roster Shaka's assembled isn't very good on paper but has potential to develop and could be very good next season or the season after that. We don't have to win this season in order for Shaka to be a good hire as the OP claims.

Do teams now hang banners, win trophies and receive rings for KenPom rankings? I'm sure Gonzaga takes great solace in their title game loss knowing that at least they beat Baylor in KenPom.
82 said Buzz's first teams at Tech and A&M lost more than the team before them. They didn't.

Do teams now hang banners, win trophies and receive rings for going 11-22 instead of 9-22? The point of bringing up KenPom was to say that winning more games doesn't necessarily mean you improved, it could just mean you played an easier schedule. In Buzz' case, he improved VT from 9-22 to 11-22 because in Johnson's last season, he didn't schedule his full non-conference allotment and they played 4 real non-con opponents and 8 cupcakes. Buzz used his full allotment and scheduled 3 real non-con opponents and 10 cupcakes. They finished 174/175 in KenPom, both finished 2-16 in ACC play, and both finished as the bottom seed in the ACC tournament. But I'm sure the 2 extra wins against Presbyterian and the Citadel made a world of difference.

As for it taking Buzz four years to win at A&M, that's assuming facts not in evidence.

I didn't present it as a fact. I said, it's looking like, and who knows, it could take him more than 4. But the fact is that it will take him at least 3 which again goes against the OP's hypothesis that we need to win this first season.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 10:17:22 AM
Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.

Not saying this to suggest Wojo shouldn't have been let go (he should have been), but a roster featuring Mitchell, Garcia, Lewis, Aidoo, Elliott, along with some transfers (or other holdovers?), might not have been terrible.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: PointWarrior on July 22, 2021, 10:18:30 AM
Panda - no room for optimism, the basketball know-it-alls here have proclaimed this team will suck next year.   

Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Justin Lewis will make significant strides this season.

Joplin and Ellis are both freshmen who will contribute right away. Ellis is going to be a star.

I’ll need to see how this team gets after it on the defensive end, but I do believe a lot of posters are reverting back to their default low expectations.

This is a well constructed roster and one that, if they embrace getting dirty on the defensive end, can grind out wins and greatly improve as the season goes on. (Refreshing, I know.)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2021, 10:20:13 AM
I agree entirely that he wants to build a culture, and bring in players who buy into that. Nobody here has suggested otherwise. But doing that doesn't require punting on 2021-22.
If MU finishes below .500 this year, battles it out with DePaul for the BE cellar, takes a step back (either in record or KenPom) it won't be because it's all part of Shaka's grand plan. It'll be because the team failed to meet his - and what should be our - expectations.

I think this is where the confusion is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Shaka is punting this season or that if we have a losing season that it is part of some grand master plan. What I think people are pushing back against is the idea that if we have a bad season this year, that means Shaka was a bad hire and is not going to work out. No one is going to be happy if this season sucks or count it as a positive. It will go down as a red mark against Shaka. But personally, I'm willing to give him longer than a season before breaking out the pitchforks.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: cheebs09 on July 22, 2021, 10:21:09 AM
We hired Shaka to get Marquette to a level of sustained success for the foreseeable future. Not just to win games in 2021. To me, it seems like Shaka prioritized a young core of guys that fit his system in order to do that. If the majority stay, we could be a very dangerous team in 2-3 years.

He got some veterans that not only can help us win, but also instill that culture. We are coming off 7 years of a culture that I don’t think fit the program or sustained high level success. It’s not something that will change overnight.

I envision Shaka coaching his butt off to win every game he can this year. It looks like he’s recruited guys that will work hard and improve. However, for the long term success of the program, Shaka decided to build a young core to develop.

We could be thrilled a few years from now after going through some growing pains. Or that core could transfer and/or never develop and we question if that was the right strategy. I don’t think it’s giving him a pass on this year. I think it’s understanding how he wants to build a sustainable winner.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on July 22, 2021, 10:21:40 AM
Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.

Here is my point: Wojo had two future NBA players on his opening roster, two All Big East team players (Duane and Carlino), a top center transfer (Luke) and the most top 100 recruits ever rostered including a ~Top 30. He had a focus of "Win Everyday".

What happened? He had the worst MUBB record in two generations. Why? None of these guys fit his Duke finesse system and he wasn't proactive from the get-go on his roster management.

Shaka has "his" guys, none were Top 100 except Morsell. Let's see how it goes.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: JakeBarnes on July 22, 2021, 10:25:14 AM
Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Justin Lewis will make significant strides this season.

Joplin and Ellis are both freshmen who will contribute right away. Ellis is going to be a star.

I’ll need to see how this team gets after it on the defensive end, but I do believe a lot of posters are reverting back to their default low expectations.

This is a well constructed roster and one that, if they embrace getting dirty on the defensive end, can grind out wins and greatly improve as the season goes on. (Refreshing, I know.)

Clemson was 10-6 in the ACC and went to the tourney. Just wanted to be clear on that point.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 10:27:20 AM
Not a single one of those quotes says anything like Shaka isn't trying to win. Shaka is absolutely trying to win.

Then what are we arguing about?
If we agree Shaka wants to win, then why shouldn't we expect him to win?
And to be clear, my definition of winning here is to be a mid-tier BE team and compete for a postseason tournament ... any postseason tournament.
We've been told for years - mostly accurately, IMO - that the biggest thing holding back this program in recent years was incompetent coaching. Now that we have a new, competent coach in place, why is the expectation of even slight improvement considered unreasonable?

Edit: As for punting on the season, there are several posts in this thread that suggest the 2021-22 roster was built to develop young players for future seasons. That, to me at least, reads like punting on the season.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Nukem2 on July 22, 2021, 10:35:36 AM
Here is my point: Wojo had two future NBA players on his opening roster, two All Big East team players (Duane and Carlino), a top center transfer (Luke) and the most top 100 recruits ever rostered including a ~Top 30. He had a focus of "Win Everyday".

What happened? He had the worst MUBB record in two generations. Why? None of these guys fit his Duke finesse system and he wasn't proactive from the get-go on his roster management.

Shaka has "his" guys, none were Top 100 except Morsell. Let's see how it goes.
Stevie was 99 in RSCI and 89 in 247 Composite.  Oso was 99 in RSCI.  Justin, Emarion, and David were 106, 106 and 115 in the 247 Composite.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 4everwarriors on July 22, 2021, 10:40:30 AM
Right after the bucks get rid of Giannis and get a real coach, aina?




High school phenom Mikey Williams signs with Excel Sports for NIL representation

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2021, 10:45:32 AM
Then what are we arguing about?

The OPs declaration that if we don't make the NCAAT in year 1 then Shaka was a bad hire.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TallTitan34 on July 22, 2021, 10:47:32 AM
Saying tournament or bust discounts so many other things.

Even almighty Al McGuire missed the NCAA Tournament the first 3 years.  But guess what.  Each year his team improved.  That's what I am looking for this season.  Improvement and player development. 

Are the mistakes and hiccups this season coaching mistakes or young player mistakes?  Do those young player mistakes decrease as the season goes on?  Does Shaka fall into a pattern of questionable moves?  These things are more important to me than simply deeming a season success or bust because they made or missed the postseason.


Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 79Warrior on July 22, 2021, 10:47:44 AM
Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.

You have no idea why Garcia made his decision. He may have been gone regardless of what happened to Wojo.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2021, 10:50:03 AM



High school phenom Mikey Williams signs with Excel Sports for NIL representation

Giannis "Trade his a$$" Antetokounmpo  and the Smoes win the NBA championship eh?  ;)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 22, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
You have no idea why Garcia made his decision. He may have been gone regardless of what happened to Wojo.

Maybe
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 11:08:37 AM
The OPs declaration that if we don't make the NCAAT in year 1 then Shaka was a bad hire.

I haven't said or defended that.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: lawdog77 on July 22, 2021, 11:11:37 AM



High school phenom Mikey Williams signs with Excel Sports for NIL representation
(https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/stupid-funny-newspaper-headlines-25-5db2c0106126b__700.jpg)
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Pakuni on July 22, 2021, 11:16:21 AM
Saying tournament or bust discounts so many other things.

Even almighty Al McGuire missed the NCAA Tournament the first 3 years.  But guess what.  Each year his team improved.  That's what I am looking for this season.  Improvement and player development. 

Marquette basketball in 1964 and Marquette basketball in 2021 is about as apples to oranges as you can get. Except perhaps college basketball in 1964 and college basketball in 2021.
In 1964, a total of 28 teams made the postseason, NCAA and NIT combined. Today, the NCAA and NIT invite 100 teams, and another 36 get invited to the CBI and CIT.

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2021, 11:47:53 AM
I haven't said or defended that.

That's why I said above that I think that's where the confusion is. I'm not trying to say that Shaka is tanking this season on purpose and you're not trying to say that Shaka should be considered a bad hire if he doesn't make the tournament. But those are the lens we are reading each other's posts through.

Really I think we're pretty close. Shaka wants to win. The roster assembled next year on paper doesn't look like a tournament team. But even if Shaka doesn't get it done this season, that doesn't mean that he won't get it done in year 2 or 3. I think we can agree on all these points.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: willie warrior on July 22, 2021, 01:18:27 PM
That's why I said above that I think that's where the confusion is. I'm not trying to say that Shaka is tanking this season on purpose and you're not trying to say that Shaka should be considered a bad hire if he doesn't make the tournament. But those are the lens we are reading each other's posts through.

Really I think we're pretty close. Shaka wants to win. The roster assembled next year on paper doesn't look like a tournament team. But even if Shaka doesn't get it done this season, that doesn't mean that he won't get it done in year 2 or 3. I think we can agree on all these points.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: willie warrior on July 22, 2021, 01:22:06 PM
I think this is where the confusion is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Shaka is punting this season or that if we have a losing season that it is part of some grand master plan. What I think people are pushing back against is the idea that if we have a bad season this year, that means Shaka was a bad hire and is not going to work out. No one is going to be happy if this season sucks or count it as a positive. It will go down as a red mark against Shaka. But personally, I'm willing to give him longer than a season before breaking out the pitchforks.
That is reasonable. But he needs to get some higher regarded recruits with next year class
And we sure as hell should not wait for 6 or 7 years like was done with Wojo-Dukiet
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: hawk on July 22, 2021, 05:28:08 PM
By my count MU still has a scholarship open.  I'm surprised Shaka didn't move sooner to fill it, is anyone else?  Still need a big to take garcia's spot.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 22, 2021, 08:05:05 PM

82 said Buzz's first teams at Tech and A&M lost more than the team before them. They didn't.

No, 82 didn't say that at all.

I said 2 things about Buzz:

Do you think Buzz Williams is a good coach? If so, why? He didn't win at VaTech until Year 3, and he did not win in his first two years at Texas A&M.

and ...

I'm a pretty big optimist, but I'm also a realist. Most of us think Buzz is a darn good coach, but he didn't go to the NCAAs his first two seasons at either Va Tech or TAMU.

You responded to my first reference this way:

But both VaTech and A&M won more games in Buzz's first season than the season before he was hired.

Meaning you refuted something I didn't say. And now you're bringing it up again ... but again, I didn't say otherwise.

As I reminded you, the OP said: No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament. So everything I said thereafter wasn't based on whether Shaka could win more than Wojo did last season -- goodness, I hope so! -- but on whether Shaka would get to the NCAAT in Year 1. For perspective, I said that Buzz -- who we all agree is a very good coach -- was unable to get to the NCAAT in either Year 1 or Year 2 with the two teams he has coached since leaving Marquette.

I'm not even sure what we disagree on anymore because you've said so much. I do hope we can agree that if you're gonna quote your fellow Scoopers, you do so correctly. Thanks!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 22, 2021, 08:09:11 PM
Weird segue into political stuff.

Not a single word of what I said in that post was "political."

I never said it was bad for the players, just will probably not be as good for Marquette basketball as some around here seem to think.

I said nothing different. I said only that we don't know yet, and we won't know for some time.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 22, 2021, 08:24:21 PM
If we go 5-15 in the Big East, this will be a MAJOR disappointment for everyone. That's DePaul like numbers. It, to me, means the team didn't improve during the season. I see us hovering around the .500 mark all year., with a winning streak at the end. 7-4 nonconference, 11-9 conference, win a few in the BET. BubbleTeam.
.One of us is unreasonable. We will have to wait to see who it is.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 22, 2021, 08:31:04 PM
I would love to see Harley Davidson get involved with Marquette's basketball team with advertising.

After a cursory internet review of Harley Davidson's financial status and position in the marketplace, it seems that they have rebounded very nicely from a dark period that was only partially due to Covid. Their new president has impressively turned things around in just one year but market surveys show a long term problem with millennials disinterest in HD's products. This could be a great opportunity for HD and MU.
I am not sure why they would do it. How more many motorcycles would they have sold, if they could of used a Markus Howard likeness? I am thinking a basketball players likeness has very little value for selling motorcycles.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 22, 2021, 08:40:53 PM
Marquette basketball in 1964 and Marquette basketball in 2021 is about as apples to oranges as you can get. Except perhaps college basketball in 1964 and college basketball in 2021.
In 1964, a total of 28 teams made the postseason, NCAA and NIT combined. Today, the NCAA and NIT invite 100 teams, and another 36 get invited to the CBI and CIT.
I will be enjoying the complaints on MUscoop, if MU makes the CBI or CIT this year.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on July 22, 2021, 08:42:45 PM
I am not sure why they would do it. How more many motorcycles would they have sold, if they could of used a Markus Howard likeness? I am thinking a basketball players likeness has very little value for selling motorcycles.
I’m thinking you are correct. The Venn diagram of college basketball players and Harley enthusiasts has to have very little overlap.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 22, 2021, 08:45:24 PM
By my count MU still has a scholarship open.  I'm surprised Shaka didn't move sooner to fill it, is anyone else?  Still need a big to take garcia's spot.
You cannot recruit players that are not interested. I think it is more likely the case that the top transfers were not interested in MU, than Shaka was not interested in them. Every coach tries to get the best players.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Small Orange Soda on July 22, 2021, 08:51:49 PM
I'm okay with giving Shaka a transition year. His first season shouldn't be the baseline, however. A lot of people gave Wojo a pass for Year 2 even though he missed the postseason because we improved on his god awful first year.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: jesmu84 on July 22, 2021, 09:31:58 PM
I'm okay with giving Shaka a transition year.

Yep
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 23, 2021, 09:09:22 AM
I'm okay with giving Shaka a transition year. His first season shouldn't be the baseline, however. A lot of people gave Wojo a pass for Year 2 even though he missed the postseason because we improved on his god awful first year.
I expect this to be a bad year. I will not crucify Shaka for his first year on court results. The problem comes, because many posters do not realize you are not going to win with a young team and therefore get upset when we do not win. This site is often unrealistic in their expectations.

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 23, 2021, 10:01:09 AM
I expect this to be a bad year. I will not crucify Shaka for his first year on court results. The problem comes, because many posters do not realize you are not going to win with a young team and therefore get upset when we do not win. This site is often unrealistic in their expectations.

I’m really excited for what “derogatory” nickname willie gives him.  I’m like a kid on XMas Eve, tbh
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Lennys Tap on July 23, 2021, 04:33:04 PM
I’m really excited for what “derogatory” nickname willie gives him.  I’m like a kid on XMas Eve, tbh

This made me smile.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: PointWarrior on July 23, 2021, 08:26:58 PM
Not to mention there is an actual NCAA rule that young basketball teams cant win. 


I expect this to be a bad year. I will not crucify Shaka for his first year on court results. The problem comes, because many posters do not realize you are not going to win with a young team and therefore get upset when we do not win. This site is often unrealistic in their expectations.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Daniel on July 23, 2021, 09:06:28 PM
Happy to take the lumps, if there is some success in recruiting.  I have concerns that Shaka's recruiting success will be much closer to what Crean, Buzz, and Wojo did vs what Shaka did at Texas.
Marqueete coaches have traditionally landed 3 and 4 star guys.  Occasionally better.  And Shaka has done the same so far.   The key will be to see what Shaka gets out of his recruits.  Buzz got a lot out of his players.  Wojo not so much.   Let’s see what Shaka can do.  I think he will get a lot
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: willie warrior on July 24, 2021, 04:07:50 AM
I’m really excited for what “derogatory” nickname willie gives him.  I’m like a kid on XMas Eve, tbh
Spoken like an expert on the subject of derogatory. But just to keep you excited there is plenty of material left from Wojo-Dukiet catastrophe to go around a while. Maybe it will pass you off enough for you to mount your green horse
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 24, 2021, 06:38:53 AM
Spoken like an expert on the subject of derogatory. But just to keep you excited there is plenty of material left from Wojo-Dukiet catastrophe to go around a while. Maybe it will pass you off enough for you to mount your green horse

Oh, no.  I leave the expertise on derogatory to you.  I’m very excited, though!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TSmith34 on July 24, 2021, 07:43:07 AM
I'm a big fan of expertise on sarcastic.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 24, 2021, 02:10:08 PM
Marqueete coaches have traditionally landed 3 and 4 star guys.  Occasionally better.  And Shaka has done the same so far.   The key will be to see what Shaka gets out of his recruits.  Buzz got a lot out of his players.  Wojo not so much.   Let’s see what Shaka can do.  I think he will get a lot

Very fair take.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: willie warrior on July 24, 2021, 10:19:36 PM
Oh, no.  I leave the expertise on derogatory to you.  I’m very excited, though!
But you brought thr subject up. If the shoe fits  wear it
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 25, 2021, 07:12:58 AM
But you brought thr subject up. If the shoe fits  wear it

Have you been workshopping any names for Shaka?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Scoop Snoop on July 25, 2021, 07:44:13 AM
Have you been workshopping any names for Shaka?

How about Woshako?  ;D
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Uncle Rico on July 25, 2021, 07:55:00 AM
How about Woshako?  ;D

Love it
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: dgies9156 on July 25, 2021, 10:57:32 AM
I’ll start by saying I have no idea what we have for next year, yet. I know we have some good parts, but how good remains to be seen. I’d like to think Oso will blossom and be the recruit we thought he would be a year ago. Justin will be great and so, far, I think we have some good parts to the puzzle.

That said, underachieving is the reason Wojo’s ass was fired. Seven years and nothing to show for it. The faithful revolted and Wojo paid the price — he should have because the buck stopped with him.

If Shaka puts up another disappointing year next year, we’re in deep do-do. I question whether we’ll be able to attract the recruits we want and the talent we need to be Marquette! We’ll be just another basketball playing school — a step ahead of DePaul and three feet or more behind Villanova, UNC etc.

I like what Shaka is doing — coaching up three and four star players. I think we can win big time that way and eventually break through in the five-star recruiting ranks. It’s what the Red Rodent does and I’m confident we can outdo that tech school without the likes of Floppy Mcdickpuncher.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Scoop Snoop on July 25, 2021, 12:01:36 PM
I’ll start by saying I have no idea what we have for next year, yet. I know we have some good parts, but how good remains to be seen. I’d like to think Oso will blossom and be the recruit we thought he would be a year ago. Justin will be great and so, far, I think we have some good parts to the puzzle.

That said, underachieving is the reason Wojo’s ass was fired. Seven years and nothing to show for it. The faithful revolted and Wojo paid the price — he should have because the buck stopped with him.

If Shaka puts up another disappointing year next year, we’re in deep do-do. I question whether we’ll be able to attract the recruits we want and the talent we need to be Marquette! We’ll be just another basketball playing school — a step ahead of DePaul and three feet or more behind Villanova, UNC etc.

I like what Shaka is doing — coaching up three and four star players. I think we can win big time that way and eventually break through in the five-star recruiting ranks. It’s what the Red Rodent does and I’m confident we can outdo that tech school without the likes of Floppy Mcdickpuncher.

Deep do-do, huh?  ;D I think we can get away with one more "disappointing" year (but only one year) as Shaka gets his systems in place and players develop. I really hate saying that we are probably going to struggle but it is typically the price of admission when a new coach is brought in to clean up a mess. I hope your optimism-such as it is- regarding the players you mentioned turns into reality. Its possible that Shaka and the team exceed expectations. If that happens, a couple of our 5 freshmen are going to have to surprise us right from the start.

The narrative that some Scoopers have pushed that we have 9 freshmen (sometimes not even bothering to explain just how they decided to take away their listed status as sophomores) is ridiculous. One went so far as to write that we have "no sophomores". Izzat so?  I get that Oso and Omax had little playing time so yeah, I understand the temptation to arbitrarily reclassify them but to toss Kolek and Justin in the same box? Did a HS senior make the winning basket vs. the Rodents?

Getting back to your concerns- I think we should support Shaka through what may be another disappointing year and not worry. Better days/seasons are ahead.



 

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 25, 2021, 12:31:49 PM
So in summary, Shaka doesn't get a pass from anyone, but in general will receive an "incomplete" at the end of this season. 

Regardless of the results (tourney birth, or wojo-like year) the expectations go way up the next two years.

I think we should support Shaka through what may be another disappointing year and not worry.

I think you're right.  But not worry?  Where exactly do you think you are?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Scoop Snoop on July 25, 2021, 12:54:27 PM
So in summary, Shaka doesn't get a pass from anyone, but in general will receive an "incomplete" at the end of this season. 

Regardless of the results (tourney birth, or wojo-like year) the expectations go way up the next two years.

I think you're right.  But not worry? Where exactly do you think you are?

Mea Culpa! Please forgive this transgression to Scoop etiquette. And tell me this is not ban worthy.

There's an adage that I like: "Worrying is like paying interest on a debt that you may never incur."



Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 25, 2021, 01:22:28 PM

If Shaka puts up another disappointing year next year, we’re in deep do-do.

Was MU in "deep do-do" when Crean put up a "disappointing year" in 1999-2000?

Was Virginia Tech in "deep do-do" when Buzz went 11-22 his first season there?

Was Nova in "deep do-do" when Wright put up a "disappointing year" in his first season?

Was Texas Tech in "deep do-do" when Beard put up a 6-12 conference record his first year there?

Was Auburn in "deep do-do" when Pearl went 26-40 in his first two years there?

Etc etc etc etc.

Were all of them unable to get recruits after their "disappointing" starts at their respective programs? Did those programs turn into "just another basketball playing school — a step ahead of DePaul" after those "disappointing" first seasons?

I'm sure glad our new guy is a better coach than Wright, Beard, Pearl, Crean and Buzz ... so we are guaranteed to avoid a "disappointing" 2021-22 season that will put the program in "deep do-do"!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: dgies9156 on July 26, 2021, 09:45:22 AM
Was MU in "deep do-do" when Crean put up a "disappointing year" in 1999-2000?

Was Virginia Tech in "deep do-do" when Buzz went 11-22 his first season there?

Was Nova in "deep do-do" when Wright put up a "disappointing year" in his first season?

Was Texas Tech in "deep do-do" when Beard put up a 6-12 conference record his first year there?

Was Auburn in "deep do-do" when Pearl went 26-40 in his first two years there?

Etc etc etc etc.

Were all of them unable to get recruits after their "disappointing" starts at their respective programs? Did those programs turn into "just another basketball playing school — a step ahead of DePaul" after those "disappointing" first seasons?

I'm sure glad our new guy is a better coach than Wright, Beard, Pearl, Crean and Buzz ... so we are guaranteed to avoid a "disappointing" 2021-22 season that will put the program in "deep do-do"!

Brother MU,

Our program is at a turning point. Going into the 2021-2022 season, we had quite a bit of talent and a good recruiting class on the way. We had a Coach who had wandered in the wilderness for seven years and had never maximized the talent he had to get Marquette to what most of us expect of our program.

Coach Wojo was wacked for this reason.

Coming into the year, we obtained the services of Coach we wanted. We went into the Transfer/Fifth Year market for veteran players we wanted. While we are young, pursuing the players we did suggests what our original commentator suggests -- Shaka's expectation and that of the university is WIN NOW!

Not only do we have a well-respected head coach, we also have a city where the NBA team just won the World Championship of basketball. That dispels the notion that Milwaukee is a sort of backwater city for basketball in which nobody wants to play.

If you take location off the table. If you take coaching off the table. If we can't win still, then yes, we are in deep do-do. The expectation with Mosell, Kur et al, is win NOW.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Its DJOver on July 26, 2021, 10:28:29 AM
Is there actually any evidence of NBA success causing collegiate basketball success in the same city, or vice versa?  This has been brought up a ton in the recent weeks and I just don't see it.  NBA basketball and NCAA basketball are just too different.  Without going back too far, DePaul had 2 bids and 2 first round exits during the Bulls era.  CUSA was decent during the Rockets championships and Houston was consistently at the bottom of it. UCLA and the Lakers had a bit of overlap, although it seems to be the outlier and I'm not sure how much one had to do with the other.  They're both mid/low majors, but UTSA and San Francisco haven't done anything while their cities NBA teams thrived.  Miami had one whole bid during the cities "big three" era.  Sure there have been more eyes on the city of Milwaukee concerning basketball than there has been in a long time, and you would occasionally see the MU banner when they would pan around the outside of the Forum which was some nice advertising I guess, I just don't think we should be anticipating some big "bucks bump" the way some seem to be.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 26, 2021, 10:29:49 AM
Is there actually any evidence of NBA success causing collegiate basketball success in the same city, or vice versa?  This has been brought up a ton in the recent weeks and I just don't see it.  NBA basketball and NCAA basketball are just too different.  Without going back too far, DePaul had 2 bids and 2 first round exits during the Bulls era.  CUSA was decent during the Rockets championships and Houston was consistently at the bottom of it. UCLA and the Lakers had a bit of overlap, although it seems to be the outlier and I'm not sure how much one had to do with the other.  They're both mid/low majors, but UTSA and San Francisco haven't done anything while their cities NBA teams thrived.  Miami had one whole bid during the cities "big three" era.  Sure there have been more eyes on the city of Milwaukee concerning basketball than there has been in a long time, and you would occasionally see the MU banner when they would pan around the outside of the Forum which was some nice advertising I guess, I just don't think we should be anticipating some big "bucks bump" the way some seem to be.


Yeah I don't think the Bucks success has, or will, impact Marquette substantially at all.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 26, 2021, 10:40:02 AM
Brother MU,

Our program is at a turning point. Going into the 2021-2022 season, we had quite a bit of talent and a good recruiting class on the way. We had a Coach who had wandered in the wilderness for seven years and had never maximized the talent he had to get Marquette to what most of us expect of our program.

Coach Wojo was wacked for this reason.

Coming into the year, we obtained the services of Coach we wanted. We went into the Transfer/Fifth Year market for veteran players we wanted. While we are young, pursuing the players we did suggests what our original commentator suggests -- Shaka's expectation and that of the university is WIN NOW!

Not only do we have a well-respected head coach, we also have a city where the NBA team just won the World Championship of basketball. That dispels the notion that Milwaukee is a sort of backwater city for basketball in which nobody wants to play.

If you take location off the table. If you take coaching off the table. If we can't win still, then yes, we are in deep do-do. The expectation with Mosell, Kur et al, is win NOW.

Fans of every school that fires a coach and brings in a new one think their school is at a "turning point." You just have tunnel vision about ours because it's your alma mater ... and that's OK. Just realize that Marquette is not somehow unique.

Again, most folks here think very highly of Buzz Williams. His first season at an ACC school was a disaster and his first year at an SEC school was nowhere near tournament-quality. His first season at Marquette was a success because he stepped into a great situation. Which more resembles the situation Shaka has stepped into at our alma mater?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: JakeBarnes on July 26, 2021, 10:45:36 AM
Shaka hasn't even won a game in the 4 months he's been here. We should probably just move on now.

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on July 26, 2021, 10:53:24 AM
Shaka hasn't even won a game in the 4 months he's been here. We should probably just move on now.

With a winning record over 83% and with a championship, an Elite 8 every year, three Final 4s in five years, two F2s, AD Scholl has Joe Champman on speed dial.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TSmith34 on July 26, 2021, 10:59:28 AM
I'm totally onboard if Joe is mic'ed up on the sideline for every game.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: dgies9156 on July 26, 2021, 10:59:54 AM

Yeah I don't think the Bucks success has, or will, impact Marquette substantially at all.

On the surface, the answer is categorically NO, it won't. Players won't suddenly come to Marquette because the Bucks won the NBA.

The question I was trying to address is the broader issue of the folks who find everything possible wrong with Milwaukee. This includes everything from the cold climate, the Chicago-inferiority to our women aren't "California Girls" etc. The compare us to the Raleigh-Durham Metro, Miami, Los Angeles even Houston, Dallas or Miami. We're old. We're post manufacturing and, "who on earth would want to live in Milwaukee?"

The Bucks proved one thing: Talent will flow to opportunity. You can win in Milwaukee, just as you can in Cleveland, Philadelphia, Cincinnati or even Miami and Orlando. People will come to Marquette if there's a reason!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: TAMU Eagle on July 26, 2021, 11:04:09 AM
Is there actually any evidence of NBA success causing collegiate basketball success in the same city, or vice versa?  This has been brought up a ton in the recent weeks and I just don't see it.  NBA basketball and NCAA basketball are just too different.  Without going back too far, DePaul had 2 bids and 2 first round exits during the Bulls era.  CUSA was decent during the Rockets championships and Houston was consistently at the bottom of it. UCLA and the Lakers had a bit of overlap, although it seems to be the outlier and I'm not sure how much one had to do with the other.  They're both mid/low majors, but UTSA and San Francisco haven't done anything while their cities NBA teams thrived.  Miami had one whole bid during the cities "big three" era.  Sure there have been more eyes on the city of Milwaukee concerning basketball than there has been in a long time, and you would occasionally see the MU banner when they would pan around the outside of the Forum which was some nice advertising I guess, I just don't think we should be anticipating some big "bucks bump" the way some seem to be.

None of those schools share an arena with their nba team. But yes,  i doubt it makes a substantial impact. But it certainly doesn't hurt
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: warriorchick on July 26, 2021, 11:13:51 AM
None of those schools share an arena with their nba team. But yes,  i doubt it makes a substantial impact. But it certainly doesn't hurt

I would have to think that when a recruit is visiting, there may be opportunities for him to "just happen to" run into guys from the Bucks.  Don't they occasionally work out at the Al? Could a recruit's visit to the Fiserv coincide with when the team is there?
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: shoothoops on July 26, 2021, 09:35:54 PM
Fans of every school that fires a coach and brings in a new one think their school is at a "turning point." You just have tunnel vision about ours because it's your alma mater ... and that's OK. Just realize that Marquette is not somehow unique.

Again, most folks here think very highly of Buzz Williams. His first season at an ACC school was a disaster and his first year at an SEC school was nowhere near tournament-quality. His first season at Marquette was a success because he stepped into a great situation. Which more resembles the situation Shaka has stepped into at our alma mater?

Actually, Buzz’ first season at Virginia Tech was an improvement from a wins standpoint from the prior season. He inherited 3 straight losing seasons, including a 10-42 ACC record. Virginia Tech won exactly 2 conference games the year prior. His 3 NCAA appearances (in 5 seasons) represent almost a quarter of Virginia Tech’s all time NCAA Tourney appearances. Virginia Tech made one NCAA appearance in the prior two decades. Buzz’ Sweet 16 there is one of just two all time there. The other? 1967. He had a winning record and winning conference record in the ACC 4 of 5 seasons.

14-18 (6-12) is what TAMU did the year prior to Buzz. He went 16-14 (10-8) in his first season. You have to go back three more seasons for their last winning conference record prior to that.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 26, 2021, 09:39:39 PM
We would probably still be playing in the old MECCA, if the Bucks were never in Milwaukee. The Bucks most likely have had a positive effect on MU basketball.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 26, 2021, 10:08:03 PM
Actually, Buzz’ first season at Virginia Tech was an improvement from a wins standpoint from the prior season. He inherited 3 straight losing seasons, including a 10-42 ACC record. Virginia Tech won exactly 2 conference games the year prior. His 3 NCAA appearances (in 5 seasons) represent almost a quarter of Virginia Tech’s all time NCAA Tourney appearances. Virginia Tech made one NCAA appearance in the prior two decades. Buzz’ Sweet 16 there is one of just two all time there. The other? 1967. He had a winning record and winning conference record in the ACC 4 of 5 seasons.

14-18 (6-12) is what TAMU did the year prior to Buzz. He went 16-14 (10-8) in his first season. You have to go back three more seasons for their last winning conference record prior to that.

I actually think we agree.

See, depending on how the season progresses, if this year's team goes 18-15 (including BET) and actually improves as the season goes along but doesn't get to play in the postseason, it could have been a very nice coaching job by Shaka. It will have been a significant improvement over Wojo's last year despite massive turnover and youth, while the culture is being built.

But if you've read this thread, you've seen that there are many Scoopers who think that anything less than an NCAAT appearance will be considered a failure. Even at least one of Shaka's biggest cheerleaders have said it.

If that's the bar, Scoop could be a veeeeerrrrry interesting place come March.

So I wasn't saying Buzz "failed" to improve those programs during his first seasons at each. I was saying (or at least trying to say) that he didn't come within 1,000 miles of an NCAAT bid. Same is true for Wright, Crean, Beard and others in their first seasons. Yet Shaka is expected to make the tourney by some or it will have been an epic fail.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: dgies9156 on July 26, 2021, 11:45:16 PM
We would probably still be playing in the old MECCA, if the Bucks were never in Milwaukee. The Bucks most likely have had a positive effect on MU basketball.

Excellent point.

Agree 100%.

If we were not playing in the MECCA, then someone would have had to cough up $100 million+ for the on-campus Vow of Poverty Arena. We're much better off where we are.

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 27, 2021, 07:45:21 AM
Don't get me wrong.  The Bucks' PRESENCE in Milwaukee is definitely helpful.  Having an NBA team in town, with an NBA arena is great for Marquette.

However, that is not what was being debated.  The question was whether the Bucks' SUCCESS will help Marquette.  I am not sure that will be the case.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: brewcity77 on July 27, 2021, 08:04:55 AM
Don't get me wrong.  The Bucks' PRESENCE in Milwaukee is definitely helpful.  Having an NBA team in town, with an NBA arena is great for Marquette.

However, that is not what was being debated.  The question was whether the Bucks' SUCCESS will help Marquette.  I am not sure that will be the case.

Might be different had Matthews stuck around or Crowder joined the Bucks instead of the Suns. I don't think it hurts, but especially with the new ownership, I'm not convinced it helps much.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: shoothoops on July 27, 2021, 08:48:04 AM
I actually think we agree.

See, depending on how the season progresses, if this year's team goes 18-15 (including BET) and actually improves as the season goes along but doesn't get to play in the postseason, it could have been a very nice coaching job by Shaka. It will have been a significant improvement over Wojo's last year despite massive turnover and youth, while the culture is being built.

But if you've read this thread, you've seen that there are many Scoopers who think that anything less than an NCAAT appearance will be considered a failure. Even at least one of Shaka's biggest cheerleaders have said it.

If that's the bar, Scoop could be a veeeeerrrrry interesting place come March.

So I wasn't saying Buzz "failed" to improve those programs during his first seasons at each. I was saying (or at least trying to say) that he didn't come within 1,000 miles of an NCAAT bid. Same is true for Wright, Crean, Beard and others in their first seasons. Yet Shaka is expected to make the tourney by some or it will have been an epic fail.

I think if Shaka can improve Marquette at the same level Buzz improved Virginia Tech based on recent and distant program history, MUBB fans would be thrilled. Obviously that would mean better results for Shaka at MUBB, than Buzz had at Virginia Tech.

What matters is having a consistent winning program almost annually year after year for a long period of time. That’s success. That’s what people want. Competing for league titles, NcAA Tourney wins. Before getting to that, doing it in a shorter 5 year period would be good compared to the recent past.

Some coaches have success right away then drop off a year or two and build long term success. Some take a few years before success. Some do it right away. There are all kinds of ways to do it.

It’s good and healthy to have some expectations and pressure. Obviously with that, there will be unrealistic opinions to ignore as well.

As a program, making the NCAA Tourney and all of those things are annual program expectations regardless of coach and time. Every year. Circumstances can and do vary making that more difficult certain years. Shaka won’t lose his job if he doesn’t make the NCAA’s his first year. But I don’t think this is a do it in 4 or 5 year situation either.

Add some fan expectations, with the strong early Texas recruiting start for Shaka’s replacement there, and some of those super high expectation people are getting restless baed on that combined with lack of bigger recent success. And the Bucks just won an NBA Title. Some will say, why not MUBB?

Summer in Cream City.

Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2021, 10:55:13 AM
I think if Shaka can improve Marquette at the same level Buzz improved Virginia Tech based on recent and distant program history, MUBB fans would be thrilled.

One would think. But if one has read this thread, one would be wrong about how many fans would react to that very thing happening at a similar pace.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: JakeBarnes on July 27, 2021, 10:58:08 AM
So are we going to the Championship or what? So far we have zero home wins. Zero signature wins. Kenpom won't even rate us for 2021-2022 yet.

The Shaka era is a pure disappointment in terms of on-the-court results so far.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: MU82 on July 27, 2021, 10:59:57 AM
So are we going to the Championship or what? So far we have zero home wins. Zero signature wins. Kenpom won't even rate us for 2021-2022 yet.

The Shaka era is a pure disappointment in terms of on-the-court results so far.

Yep ... lots of settling for mediocrity so far!
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: warriorchick on July 27, 2021, 11:48:26 AM


However, that is not what was being debated.  The question was whether the Bucks' SUCCESS will help Marquette.  I am not sure that will be the case.

I think it will be helpful given that the success of the team has shown a very positive spotlight on Milwaukee as a place to live.  There has been plenty of "I didn't realize Milwaukee was so cool!" publicity in the past couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Newsdreams on July 27, 2021, 01:14:29 PM
So are we going to the Championship or what? So far we have zero home wins. Zero signature wins. Kenpom won't even rate us for 2021-2022 yet.

The Shaka era is a pure disappointment in terms of on-the-court results so far.
I think it will come down to the result of the scrimmage with the TBT team.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Jockey on July 27, 2021, 03:56:45 PM
Back to Shaka, I say why wait for 5 years. Fire his @ss after the 1st loss. What better proof will you need that the guy can't coach.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 27, 2021, 06:18:55 PM
I believe the Bucks have been a benefit to MU. However, I think MU not having a football team more than offsets the Bucks benefit to MU. I think there is a big reason why basketball coaches like to take recruits to their schools football game.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: warriorchick on July 27, 2021, 07:40:29 PM
I believe the Bucks have been a benefit to MU. However, I think MU not having a football team more than offsets the Bucks benefit to MU. I think there is a big reason why basketball coaches like to take recruits to their schools football game.

Really?  I would think it would be an advantage to be able to tell recruits that unlike at a football school, the basketball team is the biggest thing on campus at Marquette.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: 79Warrior on July 27, 2021, 07:50:18 PM
Really?  I would think it would be an advantage to be able to tell recruits that unlike at a football school, the basketball team is the biggest thing on campus at Marquette.

Cuts both ways.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: CTWarrior on July 27, 2021, 08:42:33 PM
I have no expectation for record or postseason or whatever.  I will judge Shaka on what I see on the floor.  I think back to Kevin O'Neill's first two seasons which included an 11-18 record in year two and feeling good that he was on the right track.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Lennys Tap on July 27, 2021, 09:32:58 PM
I have no expectation for record or postseason or whatever.  I will judge Shaka on what I see on the floor.  I think back to Kevin O'Neill's first two seasons which included an 11-18 record in year two and feeling good that he was on the right track.

Same.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: bilsu on July 27, 2021, 10:14:48 PM
Really?  I would think it would be an advantage to be able to tell recruits that unlike at a football school, the basketball team is the biggest thing on campus at Marquette.
Makes a difference, if the player goal is to be the big dog on campus. A team player not so much.
Title: Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
Post by: Gryphon on July 28, 2021, 10:38:02 AM
I have no expectation for record or postseason or whatever.  I will judge Shaka on what I see on the floor.  I think back to Kevin O'Neill's first two seasons which included an 11-18 record in year two and feeling good that he was on the right track.

+1