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Author Topic: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....  (Read 9889 times)

MuggsyB

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2021, 10:02:21 AM »
I think we have to see what we actually have talent wise before making definitive expectations for this season.  There are just so many new faces.  I don't think anyone should get "a pass" per se but usually it takes at least one full season and an additional recruiting class to be a team capable of making some noise in the tournament.  I personally look at this as a transition year with the new faces and establishing a culture but we do have a lot of intriguing pieces. 

What I really want to see is how this team competes defensively.  If we can establish ourselves quickly on that end of the floor then anything is possible, even in year 1.  It's just that we have a lot of guys with very little playing experience and unusually it takes time to gel.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2021, 10:07:40 AM »
Wojo left the cupboard bare, aina?

Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Its DJOver

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2021, 10:07:58 AM »
No one has said Shaka isn't trying to win, just that he's going about it in a different way, and because of that, the people that are saying

Shaka wants to win, and win now

may be in for a disappointing season.  Just because you bring in a grad transfer, doesn't mean that you're not building for the future.  With today's transfer culture, and the ability to assemble on old team through the portal in just 1 offseason, you don't willingly have 9 underclassmen unless you're building something that will take more than a year to finish.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2021, 10:09:45 AM »
Quotes from this thread:

"I do not expect an >.500 season."

Q: "Why should our expectations be any less than a NCAA Tournament bid?"
A: Because some of us are actually realistic?

"Given the way he assembled the roster, making it very clear that he did not elect to pursue a "win now" strategy,"

"This was a deliberate decision by Shaka to not pursue the top talent in the transfer portal. I think we will see that Shaka's goal is to recruit players who will buy into the culture he is building, not necessarily chase the top rated talent."

"Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes."


The theme of all these posts is that Shaka is punting on the 2021-22 season in hopes of building something long term. I think that's wrong. I think Shaka wants to win now AND build something long term.
And contrary to what some of you all think, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Not a single one of those quotes says anything like Shaka isn't trying to win. Shaka is absolutely trying to win. What these quotes say is that the way he is going about it is by recruiting players who fit his system, will buy into the culture he's creating, and will develop over more than one season. The way he is not going about it is by recruiting players purely for their talent and then fitting the pieces together (which there is nothing wrong with by the way. I'm not advocating for one over the other, just acknowledging what Shaka has put an emphasis on). No one said anything about punting the season. Some of us just recognize that the roster Shaka's assembled isn't very good on paper but has potential to develop and could be very good next season or the season after that. We don't have to win this season in order for Shaka to be a good hire as the OP claims.

Do teams now hang banners, win trophies and receive rings for KenPom rankings? I'm sure Gonzaga takes great solace in their title game loss knowing that at least they beat Baylor in KenPom.
82 said Buzz's first teams at Tech and A&M lost more than the team before them. They didn't.

Do teams now hang banners, win trophies and receive rings for going 11-22 instead of 9-22? The point of bringing up KenPom was to say that winning more games doesn't necessarily mean you improved, it could just mean you played an easier schedule. In Buzz' case, he improved VT from 9-22 to 11-22 because in Johnson's last season, he didn't schedule his full non-conference allotment and they played 4 real non-con opponents and 8 cupcakes. Buzz used his full allotment and scheduled 3 real non-con opponents and 10 cupcakes. They finished 174/175 in KenPom, both finished 2-16 in ACC play, and both finished as the bottom seed in the ACC tournament. But I'm sure the 2 extra wins against Presbyterian and the Citadel made a world of difference.

As for it taking Buzz four years to win at A&M, that's assuming facts not in evidence.

I didn't present it as a fact. I said, it's looking like, and who knows, it could take him more than 4. But the fact is that it will take him at least 3 which again goes against the OP's hypothesis that we need to win this first season.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2021, 10:17:22 AM »
Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.

Not saying this to suggest Wojo shouldn't have been let go (he should have been), but a roster featuring Mitchell, Garcia, Lewis, Aidoo, Elliott, along with some transfers (or other holdovers?), might not have been terrible.

PointWarrior

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2021, 10:18:30 AM »
Panda - no room for optimism, the basketball know-it-alls here have proclaimed this team will suck next year.   

Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Justin Lewis will make significant strides this season.

Joplin and Ellis are both freshmen who will contribute right away. Ellis is going to be a star.

I’ll need to see how this team gets after it on the defensive end, but I do believe a lot of posters are reverting back to their default low expectations.

This is a well constructed roster and one that, if they embrace getting dirty on the defensive end, can grind out wins and greatly improve as the season goes on. (Refreshing, I know.)

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2021, 10:20:13 AM »
I agree entirely that he wants to build a culture, and bring in players who buy into that. Nobody here has suggested otherwise. But doing that doesn't require punting on 2021-22.
If MU finishes below .500 this year, battles it out with DePaul for the BE cellar, takes a step back (either in record or KenPom) it won't be because it's all part of Shaka's grand plan. It'll be because the team failed to meet his - and what should be our - expectations.

I think this is where the confusion is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Shaka is punting this season or that if we have a losing season that it is part of some grand master plan. What I think people are pushing back against is the idea that if we have a bad season this year, that means Shaka was a bad hire and is not going to work out. No one is going to be happy if this season sucks or count it as a positive. It will go down as a red mark against Shaka. But personally, I'm willing to give him longer than a season before breaking out the pitchforks.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

cheebs09

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2021, 10:21:09 AM »
We hired Shaka to get Marquette to a level of sustained success for the foreseeable future. Not just to win games in 2021. To me, it seems like Shaka prioritized a young core of guys that fit his system in order to do that. If the majority stay, we could be a very dangerous team in 2-3 years.

He got some veterans that not only can help us win, but also instill that culture. We are coming off 7 years of a culture that I don’t think fit the program or sustained high level success. It’s not something that will change overnight.

I envision Shaka coaching his butt off to win every game he can this year. It looks like he’s recruited guys that will work hard and improve. However, for the long term success of the program, Shaka decided to build a young core to develop.

We could be thrilled a few years from now after going through some growing pains. Or that core could transfer and/or never develop and we question if that was the right strategy. I don’t think it’s giving him a pass on this year. I think it’s understanding how he wants to build a sustainable winner.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2021, 10:21:40 AM »
Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.

Here is my point: Wojo had two future NBA players on his opening roster, two All Big East team players (Duane and Carlino), a top center transfer (Luke) and the most top 100 recruits ever rostered including a ~Top 30. He had a focus of "Win Everyday".

What happened? He had the worst MUBB record in two generations. Why? None of these guys fit his Duke finesse system and he wasn't proactive from the get-go on his roster management.

Shaka has "his" guys, none were Top 100 except Morsell. Let's see how it goes.

JakeBarnes

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2021, 10:25:14 AM »
Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Justin Lewis will make significant strides this season.

Joplin and Ellis are both freshmen who will contribute right away. Ellis is going to be a star.

I’ll need to see how this team gets after it on the defensive end, but I do believe a lot of posters are reverting back to their default low expectations.

This is a well constructed roster and one that, if they embrace getting dirty on the defensive end, can grind out wins and greatly improve as the season goes on. (Refreshing, I know.)

Clemson was 10-6 in the ACC and went to the tourney. Just wanted to be clear on that point.
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2021, 10:27:20 AM »
Not a single one of those quotes says anything like Shaka isn't trying to win. Shaka is absolutely trying to win.

Then what are we arguing about?
If we agree Shaka wants to win, then why shouldn't we expect him to win?
And to be clear, my definition of winning here is to be a mid-tier BE team and compete for a postseason tournament ... any postseason tournament.
We've been told for years - mostly accurately, IMO - that the biggest thing holding back this program in recent years was incompetent coaching. Now that we have a new, competent coach in place, why is the expectation of even slight improvement considered unreasonable?

Edit: As for punting on the season, there are several posts in this thread that suggest the 2021-22 roster was built to develop young players for future seasons. That, to me at least, reads like punting on the season.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 10:31:07 AM by Pakuni »

Nukem2

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2021, 10:35:36 AM »
Here is my point: Wojo had two future NBA players on his opening roster, two All Big East team players (Duane and Carlino), a top center transfer (Luke) and the most top 100 recruits ever rostered including a ~Top 30. He had a focus of "Win Everyday".

What happened? He had the worst MUBB record in two generations. Why? None of these guys fit his Duke finesse system and he wasn't proactive from the get-go on his roster management.

Shaka has "his" guys, none were Top 100 except Morsell. Let's see how it goes.
Stevie was 99 in RSCI and 89 in 247 Composite.  Oso was 99 in RSCI.  Justin, Emarion, and David were 106, 106 and 115 in the 247 Composite.

4everwarriors

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2021, 10:40:30 AM »
Right after the bucks get rid of Giannis and get a real coach, aina?




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"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2021, 10:45:32 AM »
Then what are we arguing about?

The OPs declaration that if we don't make the NCAAT in year 1 then Shaka was a bad hire.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

TallTitan34

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #114 on: July 22, 2021, 10:47:32 AM »
Saying tournament or bust discounts so many other things.

Even almighty Al McGuire missed the NCAA Tournament the first 3 years.  But guess what.  Each year his team improved.  That's what I am looking for this season.  Improvement and player development. 

Are the mistakes and hiccups this season coaching mistakes or young player mistakes?  Do those young player mistakes decrease as the season goes on?  Does Shaka fall into a pattern of questionable moves?  These things are more important to me than simply deeming a season success or bust because they made or missed the postseason.


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79Warrior

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #115 on: July 22, 2021, 10:47:44 AM »
Basically, yes.  His leaving certainly pushed Garcia away.  Whatever.  I lean towards the school of thought DJ was leaving anyway.  Without those guys, Wojo’s team next year would have stunk, too.  Shaka kept Stevie and Kam from the recruiting class.  The transfers in probably look different.

You have no idea why Garcia made his decision. He may have been gone regardless of what happened to Wojo.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2021, 10:50:03 AM »



High school phenom Mikey Williams signs with Excel Sports for NIL representation

Giannis "Trade his a$$" Antetokounmpo  and the Smoes win the NBA championship eh?  ;)
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Uncle Rico

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2021, 11:03:12 AM »
You have no idea why Garcia made his decision. He may have been gone regardless of what happened to Wojo.

Maybe
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2021, 11:08:37 AM »
The OPs declaration that if we don't make the NCAAT in year 1 then Shaka was a bad hire.

I haven't said or defended that.

lawdog77

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #119 on: July 22, 2021, 11:11:37 AM »



High school phenom Mikey Williams signs with Excel Sports for NIL representation

Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2021, 11:16:21 AM »
Saying tournament or bust discounts so many other things.

Even almighty Al McGuire missed the NCAA Tournament the first 3 years.  But guess what.  Each year his team improved.  That's what I am looking for this season.  Improvement and player development. 

Marquette basketball in 1964 and Marquette basketball in 2021 is about as apples to oranges as you can get. Except perhaps college basketball in 1964 and college basketball in 2021.
In 1964, a total of 28 teams made the postseason, NCAA and NIT combined. Today, the NCAA and NIT invite 100 teams, and another 36 get invited to the CBI and CIT.


TAMU Eagle

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2021, 11:47:53 AM »
I haven't said or defended that.

That's why I said above that I think that's where the confusion is. I'm not trying to say that Shaka is tanking this season on purpose and you're not trying to say that Shaka should be considered a bad hire if he doesn't make the tournament. But those are the lens we are reading each other's posts through.

Really I think we're pretty close. Shaka wants to win. The roster assembled next year on paper doesn't look like a tournament team. But even if Shaka doesn't get it done this season, that doesn't mean that he won't get it done in year 2 or 3. I think we can agree on all these points.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

willie warrior

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2021, 01:18:27 PM »
That's why I said above that I think that's where the confusion is. I'm not trying to say that Shaka is tanking this season on purpose and you're not trying to say that Shaka should be considered a bad hire if he doesn't make the tournament. But those are the lens we are reading each other's posts through.

Really I think we're pretty close. Shaka wants to win. The roster assembled next year on paper doesn't look like a tournament team. But even if Shaka doesn't get it done this season, that doesn't mean that he won't get it done in year 2 or 3. I think we can agree on all these points.

willie warrior

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2021, 01:22:06 PM »
I think this is where the confusion is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Shaka is punting this season or that if we have a losing season that it is part of some grand master plan. What I think people are pushing back against is the idea that if we have a bad season this year, that means Shaka was a bad hire and is not going to work out. No one is going to be happy if this season sucks or count it as a positive. It will go down as a red mark against Shaka. But personally, I'm willing to give him longer than a season before breaking out the pitchforks.
That is reasonable. But he needs to get some higher regarded recruits with next year class
And we sure as hell should not wait for 6 or 7 years like was done with Wojo-Dukiet

hawk

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2021, 05:28:08 PM »
By my count MU still has a scholarship open.  I'm surprised Shaka didn't move sooner to fill it, is anyone else?  Still need a big to take garcia's spot.

 

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