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Author Topic: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....  (Read 24120 times)

Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2021, 01:35:56 PM »
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)

TL,DR

I assume it was dumb, though.

Its DJOver

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2021, 01:39:39 PM »
I guess if you're willing to believe that Shaka sold Morsell and Kuath on the idea that they were coming here as mentors with limited playing time, I'd buy it. But I imagine it's more likely he recruited them with the promise of significant playing opportunities, not just to teach a bunch of freshmen the ropes.

Why can't they play significant minutes/playiong opportunities and teach the Freshman the ropes?  Both had usages below 20 last season, so even it they both bump those numbers up there are still going to be a lot of shots/minutes for the young guys.  They can also be "the guys" during the games, and teach during practices. 

There were a record number of transfers this year, I would have to think that the prospect of significant opportunities for a major conference team, with a coach that has a FF, playing in an NBA arena, would be able to attract better players than Morsell and Kur.  If Shaka were truly in a win now mindset, I think he would have done more big game hunting.   

Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2021, 01:49:11 PM »
There were a record number of transfers this year, I would have to think that the prospect of significant opportunities for a major conference team, with a coach that has a FF, playing in an NBA arena, would be able to attract better players than Morsell and Kur.  If Shaka were truly in a win now mindset, I think he would have done more big game hunting.

This is an entirely circular argument. And one that goes against known facts.
We know Shaka went after some very high-end talent on the transfer market. Tre Mitchell, Noah Gurley, Tari Eason, Noah Locke, Boogie Ellis, etc.
Shaka did plenty of big game hunting. He just didn't score many kills. But the fact he took so many shots means he wanted to build a winning roster right away.

Its DJOver

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2021, 02:02:19 PM »
Then I guess we got a real problem, because if Shaka is in win now mode, and offering the cream of the crop, and all he can land is Morsell and Kur, that's worrying. 

I think what's more likely is that all high end talent that we were linked with were more of the "reaches out", or "makes contact" variety, to gauge the players interest level in playing for a team not currently constructed to make the tournament, and where there are going to be growing pains because the coach is choosing the strategy of focusing on developing the future, and most players weren't interested.

MU82

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2021, 02:18:41 PM »
Scoop is gonna be a very interesting place this season if the team isn't postseason-worthy ... and if all the Extreme Nojos who proclaimed Shaka to be "the guy" turn on him immediately to become Shaka Attakas.

I want us to win and win big, so I hope the above scenario has no chance of playing out. But it will be eye-opening if it does.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 02:20:19 PM by MU82 »
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2021, 02:26:45 PM »
This is an entirely circular argument. And one that goes against known facts.
We know Shaka went after some very high-end talent on the transfer market. Tre Mitchell, Noah Gurley, Tari Eason, Noah Locke, Boogie Ellis, etc.
Shaka did plenty of big game hunting. He just didn't score many kills. But the fact he took so many shots means he wanted to build a winning roster right away.

Were we linked to Tre Mitchell or Boogie Ellis? I don't recall seeing us on any lists of theirs. I wouldn't call Tari Eason "big game". Locke and Gurley we pursued and I would consider them top 75 transfers this offseason but in the back half of the top 75.

Shaka actually hunted very little big game this offseason which I was surprised by. This is only one site's opinion but look at CBS Sports top 85 transfer list. Here are the only players on the list that Shaka was linked to:

#12 DeVante Jones
#21 Quincy Guerrier
#38 Noah Locke
#53 Noah Gurley
#52 Darryl Morsell
#67 Cedric Russell

Meanwhile, Shaka was linked to over a dozen other transfers that didn't crack this list including some that didn't crack anybody's top transfer list. This was a deliberate decision by Shaka to not pursue the top talent in the transfer portal. I think we will see that Shaka's goal is to recruit players who will buy into the culture he is building, not necessarily chase the top rated talent.
TAMU

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Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2021, 02:29:50 PM »
Then I guess we got a real problem, because if Shaka is in win now mode, and offering the cream of the crop, and all he can land is Morsell and Kur, that's worrying. 

I think what's more likely is that all high end talent that we were linked with were more of the "reaches out", or "makes contact" variety, to gauge the players interest level in playing for a team not currently constructed to make the tournament, and where there are going to be growing pains because the coach is choosing the strategy of focusing on developing the future, and most players weren't interested.

I'm not really too worried about all that. It was a very competitive transfer market, and you're going to take way more shots than you hit (unless you're Chris Beard, apparently).
But I think the fact Shaka was going after high-end talent belies the argument that he's in full-on rebuild mode and content to lose with a bunch of freshmen.
Also, we were on some of those guys' final lists (Gurley, Russell), so it clearly went beyond just making contact.

Anyhow, we've talked this to death, so I'll stop.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2021, 02:32:47 PM »
The question that he puts on trial: If Wojo's combination of recruiting and coaching gave us a .500 record and warranted dismissal, how can you reasonably expect Shaka to underperform that?

Because Wojo was in his seventh year and starting his third recruiting cycle at Marquette.

Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes.
TAMU

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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2021, 02:34:30 PM »
Is it really harder to sustain?  Don't all coaches (new or old) at the end of the season have to try to keep their best pieces around and then try to get some good recruits and top transfers?  It's kinda the new normal in NCAAB 2021.

This is a good question. With the new world order, my way of thinking may be completely obsolete. We will have to see. Personally, I think we will still see more players staying with their teams (assuming no coaching change) than we see leave.
TAMU

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Its DJOver

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2021, 02:36:03 PM »
I'm not really too worried about all that. It was a very competitive transfer market, and you're going to take way more shots than you hit (unless you're Chris Beard, apparently).
But I think the fact Shaka was going after high-end talent belies the argument that he's in full-on rebuild mode and content to lose with a bunch of freshmen.
Also, we were on some of those guys' final lists (Gurley, Russell), so it clearly went beyond just making contact.

Anyhow, we've talked this to death, so I'll stop.

Isn't the transfer market going to extremely competitive every year though? 

If the scenario you presented is correct (which again, I don't think it is, see TAMUs post for a better breakdown), going oh-for among the top tier talent, would be a very worrying sign for Shaka. 

panda

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2021, 02:42:35 PM »
Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Justin Lewis will make significant strides this season.

Joplin and Ellis are both freshmen who will contribute right away. Ellis is going to be a star.

I’ll need to see how this team gets after it on the defensive end, but I do believe a lot of posters are reverting back to their default low expectations.

This is a well constructed roster and one that, if they embrace getting dirty on the defensive end, can grind out wins and greatly improve as the season goes on. (Refreshing, I know.)

muwarrior69

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2021, 02:47:41 PM »
Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll?

....its an addiction and the only cure is a winning basketball program.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2021, 03:09:14 PM »
....its an addiction and the only cure is a winning basketball program.

hahah TRUE.

Viper

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2021, 03:25:32 PM »
Hired the coach. Now just add water and "whalla!", instand Final Four!
that may be the recipe/result at Texas
Moron? Maybe. Dork? Possibly. Lost? Definitely.

muwarrior69

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2021, 03:34:44 PM »
I have no expectations what so ever. What I do know is that change was necessary. Now let's see what they can do. We'll know soon enough.

NCMUFan

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2021, 04:30:08 PM »
Do you see poaching stars from lower conferences to higher conferences the trend.
Big East stars head to ACC.
Mountain West and AAC to Big East?

bananahammock

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2021, 04:32:03 PM »
Kur, Morsell and Elliott will all be rock solid.

Kolek was significant contributor at the mid major level and Omax was a bit part player on a bad high major team.

Clemson was a 7 seed in the NCAA

The Equalizer

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2021, 05:11:51 PM »
Because Wojo was in his seventh year and starting his third recruiting cycle at Marquette.

Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes.

Except Shaka is not starting his first season. It will be his 13th year as a head coach, including six at another high major.  He's already a known commodity to the AAU programs, the HS coaches, top recruits, etc.  He's exactly the type of guy that should be able to fill a roster with players who can win right away.  Especially if he has playing time to offer.

If we had hired yet another unproven assistant in his first D1 coaching job or some low-major coach that pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament, then, yes, I could see things getting worse before they get better. 


willie warrior

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2021, 05:16:17 PM »
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2021, 05:46:55 PM »
Except Shaka is not starting his first season. It will be his 13th year as a head coach, including six at another high major.  He's already a known commodity to the AAU programs, the HS coaches, top recruits, etc.  He's exactly the type of guy that should be able to fill a roster with players who can win right away.  Especially if he has playing time to offer.

If we had hired yet another unproven assistant in his first D1 coaching job or some low-major coach that pulled an upset in the NCAA tournament, then, yes, I could see things getting worse before they get better.

I think you underestimate the amount of time most coaches, even veteran coaches,
 need to build a program. I think giving Shaka at least two years before breaking out the pitchforks is reasonable.

But still, I answered your question. Wojo was fired because of a poor resume built over seven years. Not because of an individual poor season. If Shaka duplicates last year's record,  it won't be an apples to apples comparison and he won't be fired.
TAMU

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Pakuni

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2021, 07:08:26 PM »
Wojo wasn't paid $8 million to go away, and Shaka wasn't paid whatever he was paid to move north, so the program could tank a season or two in the hopes a bunch of borderline top 100 freshmen become the core of a title contender.
Shaka was hired to win ASAP, and I fully believe he wants to win ASAP.

How much time does it take to build a program? Ask Juwan Howard. Ask Chris Beard. Heck, ask Rick Pitino.
Jeez, does anyone think UNC, Arizona and Indiana fans would be cool with a coach not trying to win?

panda

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2021, 07:35:58 PM »
Clemson was a 7 seed in the NCAA

Wins over bama and FSU early on boosted their resume, but they were a mediocre team. Very ugly aesthetically too.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2021, 08:49:25 PM »
As usual I'm amazed by the "knowledge" expounded by posters with 10,000+ posts by their stage names.  :(

No Shaka doesn't get a pass this season and he better make the NCAA tournament.  He has 12 high major players on scholarship and most, to all of them, were top 150 recruits and/or have that type of upside.  Three are 22+ year old - fifth year seniors and many sophomores where the biggest step up in a player's career often occurs between freshman and sophomore year.  Further Shaka has been ruthless in running off players so he could get a roster full of high major players knowing only 8 (possibly 9) will play meaningful minutes.  So why should he get sympathy and a pass when he knows his actions will lead to two to three players and their family's not being happy with their roles and transferring?  To this point I'm glad he did this as he wants lots of competition to see which cream rises to the top but at the same time he shouldn't have the bar of expectations lowered for him when he's not doing it for any of his players. 

This roster reminds me of Buzz' rosters which were full of athletic ability including a handful of guys with NBA potential.  Heck even our preferred walk-on has some potential upside.   

Kentucky recently went to back to back Final 4's against Wisconsin with freshman starters.  So there is no excuse to write off this year like all the lackeys' are doing already and did constantly for Wojo while making bogus excuse after excuse for him.  ::)

Last time I checked Shaka isn't a rookie coach either and we're paying him $3MM+ based on the fact he's a known commodity that is supposed to deliver excellent results in exchange for this lofty salary.  Otherwise we would have hired a hot assistant or mid-major coach for $1 to $2MM+/-. 

If he can't get this team winning enough this year to be one of the nation's top 40 teams worthy of an at large bid then this will end up being another bad hire. 

Finally he better win the Leon Bond recruiting battle as well.  We also brought Shaka in to get just these kind of players in our backyard that we've been missing/ignoring since Buzz left.  If he can't land Leon Bond and loses him to a coach who just had a mass exodus of transfers this offseason and whose teams scores 50 points a game... then we should have hired Porter Moser.  Porter was the better coach but we thought Shaka would be a better recruiter and lead to a quicker fix while also potentially being a better overall coach as well. 

The bar has not been lowered Shaka!  I like what you've done so far but much more is expected and now and not three to five years from now!  8-)

You’re good at this
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

79Warrior

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2021, 09:47:46 PM »
Because Wojo was in his seventh year and starting his third recruiting cycle at Marquette.

Shaka is starting his first season. It is very common for things to get worse before they get better with coaching changes.

Exactly

PorkysButthole

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Re: Sorry no pass for Shaka this season....
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2021, 09:56:49 PM »
Porky is with the OP on this.   No excuses!  Shaka has the coaching chops and experience to deliver results and should.   If they don't make the NCAA next year it will be disappointing period.  Porky thinks we can all agree that any year we don't make the NCAA's is disappointing, regardless of the overall state of the program, whether the coach is experienced or not, has a new roster of mostly underclassmen or a cohesive unit that's played together for 3+ seasons.   If Porky's being honest, any year we don't win the whole damn thing is disappointing, let alone merely making the tournament, but given the last 7 years or whatever it was, Porky will settle for just being in the field.  That said, these coaches have a really difficult job and competition for talent is incredibly intense.

As frustrating as the WOJO era was, too many folks on this board seemed to believe that our talent level was incredible and if anyone other than WOJO was the head coach, we'd have been a shoo in for top 3 in the BE and at least a 6 seed every year.   The reality was far from it and our talent level was at best middle of the pack in conf. and probably closer to the lower third.   In no way is Porky defending WOJO.   No doubt he needed to to go, but the idea that we had incredible talent these last 7 years that the staff simply failed to develop Porky doesn't buy.  Why doesn't it ever occur to anyone on here that our talent level just hasn't been all that great and perhaps most of those players hit their ceiling?  That's Porky's POV.   At the end of the day, the players are the ones that win or lose.  The coach can only do so much.  Hopefully Shaka's players will be better than those in the recent past.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 10:00:30 PM by PorkysButthole »