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Author Topic: 2021-22 College Football thread  (Read 63517 times)

MU82

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #600 on: November 30, 2021, 12:29:40 PM »
Just for kicks, I looked up what Charlie Weis was up to (not much). But I saw that ND signed him, in 2004, to a $2 million per year contract. Less than 20 years later, there are assistants making that much or more.

It was a stupid contract to give to a guy who hadn't proved squat, and an unpleasant braggart at that. But your point is well taken.

But paying players, or even allowing them to earn money off their likeness, will bankrupt college sports.

Yep. Gotta pay the overlords. Let the serfs eat cake!
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dgies9156

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #601 on: November 30, 2021, 12:38:33 PM »
You're living in the same fantasy world as a lot of ND fans.  LSU is a better job, plus he's getting paid.

ND and Indiana (basketball) think they're more important than they currently are.

Brother Hards:

LSU pays more, yes.

But look at what you're up against. Georgia and Alabama are two of the top teams in the nation.

Florida, Mississippi, Texas A&M, Auburn, Arkansas, LSU, Tennessee and soon, Oklahoma and Texas, are traditional powers that had varying degrees of success in the past 20 years.

Which leaves Mississippi State, Missouri, Kentucky, South Carolina and Vanderbilt as the only soft parts of the conference

You're effectively fighting a war every week against the nation's very best football teams with a fan base that will cut you at the knees if you lose a single game. At Notre Dame, one and maybe even two losses might get you to the playoffs.

Look, everybody says money, but somehow I'd bet Notre Dame could match LSU. It's about Nattys and, sorry Domers, the look of this job change is you can, maybe, win a natty at LSU. You aren't likely to do so at Notre Dame. At day's end, I gotta believe that's the ONLY reason Kelly moved.

Jockey

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #602 on: November 30, 2021, 12:53:05 PM »


Look, everybody says money, but somehow I'd bet Notre Dame could match LSU. It's about Nattys and, sorry Domers, the look of this job change is you can, maybe, win a natty at LSU. You aren't likely to do so at Notre Dame. At day's end, I gotta believe that's the ONLY reason Kelly moved.

Spot on. Kelly knew the ceiling has been reached at ND. He wants more.

RJax55

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #603 on: November 30, 2021, 01:05:27 PM »
Brother Hards:

LSU pays more, yes.

But look at what you're up against. Georgia and Alabama are two of the top teams in the nation.

Florida, Mississippi, Texas A&M, Auburn, Arkansas, LSU, Tennessee and soon, Oklahoma and Texas, are traditional powers that had varying degrees of success in the past 20 years.

Which leaves Mississippi State, Missouri, Kentucky, South Carolina and Vanderbilt as the only soft parts of the conference

You're effectively fighting a war every week against the nation's very best football teams with a fan base that will cut you at the knees if you lose a single game. At Notre Dame, one and maybe even two losses might get you to the playoffs.

Look, everybody says money, but somehow I'd bet Notre Dame could match LSU. It's about Nattys and, sorry Domers, the look of this job change is you can, maybe, win a natty at LSU. You aren't likely to do so at Notre Dame. At day's end, I gotta believe that's the ONLY reason Kelly moved.

Exactly. You can definitely win a national title at LSU. Not sure on ND. 1988 was a long time ago. Thus, a better job.

As pointed out earlier, Les Miles and Coach O won national titles at LSU in the last 15 years. Brian Kelly is a significantly better football coach. Honestly, that's understatement. Coach O was an awful head coach at Ole Miss, going 3-21 in SEC play during his three seasons. And, yet, even he won a title when at LSU. If the job can elevate a guy like Coach O, then Brian Kelly has a real shot at a title in the next five years, competition be damned.

tower912

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #604 on: November 30, 2021, 01:43:07 PM »
Melvin Tucker, Big Ten coach of the year.  MSU set the market and kept USC or LSU grom poaching him.  For better or for worse.
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MU82

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #605 on: November 30, 2021, 02:05:44 PM »
Brother Hards:

LSU pays more, yes.

But look at what you're up against. Georgia and Alabama are two of the top teams in the nation.

Florida, Mississippi, Texas A&M, Auburn, Arkansas, LSU, Tennessee and soon, Oklahoma and Texas, are traditional powers that had varying degrees of success in the past 20 years.

Which leaves Mississippi State, Missouri, Kentucky, South Carolina and Vanderbilt as the only soft parts of the conference

You're effectively fighting a war every week against the nation's very best football teams with a fan base that will cut you at the knees if you lose a single game. At Notre Dame, one and maybe even two losses might get you to the playoffs.

Look, everybody says money, but somehow I'd bet Notre Dame could match LSU. It's about Nattys and, sorry Domers, the look of this job change is you can, maybe, win a natty at LSU. You aren't likely to do so at Notre Dame. At day's end, I gotta believe that's the ONLY reason Kelly moved.

Any coach worth hiring will relish the challenge of taking on the best of the best most every week.
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #606 on: November 30, 2021, 02:17:39 PM »
Brother Hards:

LSU pays more, yes.

But look at what you're up against. Georgia and Alabama are two of the top teams in the nation.

Florida, Mississippi, Texas A&M, Auburn, Arkansas, LSU, Tennessee and soon, Oklahoma and Texas, are traditional powers that had varying degrees of success in the past 20 years.

Which leaves Mississippi State, Missouri, Kentucky, South Carolina and Vanderbilt as the only soft parts of the conference

You're effectively fighting a war every week against the nation's very best football teams with a fan base that will cut you at the knees if you lose a single game. At Notre Dame, one and maybe even two losses might get you to the playoffs.

Look, everybody says money, but somehow I'd bet Notre Dame could match LSU. It's about Nattys and, sorry Domers, the look of this job change is you can, maybe, win a natty at LSU. You aren't likely to do so at Notre Dame. At day's end, I gotta believe that's the ONLY reason Kelly moved.

When did Ole Miss and Arkansas become "traditional powers" in the SEC? Even Tennessee is a stretch to call them a "traditional power." Ans A&M has yet to win a division title in the SEC and hasn't won a conference title since 1998 when RC Slocum was the coach.

The SEC is Bama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, and occasionally Auburn, then everyone else.   
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Pakuni

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #607 on: November 30, 2021, 02:37:52 PM »
When did Ole Miss and Arkansas become "traditional powers" in the SEC? Even Tennessee is a stretch to call them a "traditional power." Ans A&M has yet to win a division title in the SEC and hasn't won a conference title since 1998 when RC Slocum was the coach.

The SEC is Bama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, and occasionally Auburn, then everyone else.

Tennessee has been down for a while now, but they have won 13 SEC titles and, since 1970, have 12 top 10 finishes in the final AP poll. Which puts them on par with Auburn, LSU and Georgia.

lawdog77

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #608 on: November 30, 2021, 02:43:27 PM »
Tennessee has been down for a while now, but they have won 13 SEC titles and, since 1970, have 12 top 10 finishes in the final AP poll. Which puts them on par with Auburn, LSU and Georgia.
Arkansas is a traditional power in the sense that they were really good in the 60's and 70's under Broyles, then Holtz. Well before the SEC. Hatfield had them go 55-17 in his run there with back to back Cotton Bowls. Petrino had them near the top again, then Bielema f'd it up.

Warrior Code

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #609 on: November 30, 2021, 03:02:47 PM »
Spot on. Kelly knew the ceiling has been reached at ND. He wants more.

I might say *his* ceiling has been reached at ND. I think the right person could still win a title there, though I would wager we will see it happen in Baton Rouge again before it happens in South Bend.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #610 on: November 30, 2021, 03:12:37 PM »
I might say *his* ceiling has been reached at ND. I think the right person could still win a title there, though I would wager we will see it happen in Baton Rouge again before it happens in South Bend.


I guess I don't understand what his ceiling is and how a guy named Brian Kelly, who won at every level he has coached, almost entirely in the Midwest, isn't the "right person."  I mean, he got them to a championship game in the BCS era and two semifinals in the playoff era.  That is closer to a title than any time post 1988.

Perhaps the answer is Luke Fickell, who is leading Cincinnati to their first undefeated regular season since...Brian Kelly did in 2009.
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Warrior Code

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #611 on: November 30, 2021, 03:32:30 PM »

I guess I don't understand what his ceiling is and how a guy named Brian Kelly, who won at every level he has coached, almost entirely in the Midwest, isn't the "right person."  I mean, he got them to a championship game in the BCS era and two semifinals in the playoff era.  That is closer to a title than any time post 1988.

Perhaps the answer is Luke Fickell, who is leading Cincinnati to their first undefeated regular season since...Brian Kelly did in 2009.


What do you mean? ^^^ That's his ceiling at Notre Dame. We've seen it. His Irish name or coaching in the midwest has nothing to do with it.

He was often very good (if this was hoops he'd have 3 Final Fours in 12 years) but never truly great. Someone else could come in and be great. Is it likely/imminent? Probably not. Finding a championship-level coach is hard. But I think it's still possible to win there; Kelly just couldn't get all the way over the hump
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #612 on: November 30, 2021, 03:39:41 PM »
What do you mean? ^^^ That's his ceiling at Notre Dame. We've seen it. His Irish name or coaching in the midwest has nothing to do with it.

He was often very good (if this was hoops he'd have 3 Final Fours in 12 years) but never truly great. Someone else could come in and be great. Is it likely/imminent? Probably not. Finding a championship-level coach is hard. But I think it's still possible to win there; Kelly just couldn't get all the way over the hump

My point is that it would have hardly been shocking to have him win a championship in the next decade had he stuck around Notre Dame.  He consistently got them to the brink of a championship...just not over the finish line.  That doesn't suggest to me that his ceiling had been reached.

I don't think people understand that there aren't many coaches better than Brian Kelly and that it was much more likely that they would have won a national championship WITH him than whomever they replace him with.

And I don't even particularly like the guy.
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Pakuni

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #613 on: November 30, 2021, 04:50:08 PM »
My point is that it would have hardly been shocking to have him win a championship in the next decade had he stuck around Notre Dame.  He consistently got them to the brink of a championship...just not over the finish line. 

On the brink is a very generous view of losses by scores of 42-14 (at one point 35-0), 30-3, and 31-14 (at one point 31-7). Not just in playoff games, Kelly's teams rarely were competitive against any top-flight opponents. His Notre Dame teams went 3-10 vs top 10 opponents, and one of those wins was in OT against a Trevor Lawrence-less Clemson.
He did a good job at Notre Dame and, as you said, was their best coach since Holtz. But I wouldn't assume that Brian Kelly hit Notre Dame's ceiling. Maybe he just hit his ceiling.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #614 on: November 30, 2021, 06:06:30 PM »

I guess I don't understand what his ceiling is and how a guy named Brian Kelly, who won at every level he has coached, almost entirely in the Midwest, isn't the "right person."  I mean, he got them to a championship game in the BCS era and two semifinals in the playoff era.  That is closer to a title than any time post 1988.

Perhaps the answer is Luke Fickell, who is leading Cincinnati to their first undefeated regular season since...Brian Kelly did in 2009.

It's his ceiling at ND. ND does not allow JUCO transfers and does actually have academic standards for admission (not the pretend ones Bucky has) which limits his recruiting pool. He was highly unlikely going to get a top 5 class at ND because of that (2022 and 2023 classes are top 3 but those are just with verbals and other schools far from complete).
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #615 on: November 30, 2021, 06:16:32 PM »
On the brink is a very generous view of losses by scores of 42-14 (at one point 35-0), 30-3, and 31-14 (at one point 31-7). Not just in playoff games, Kelly's teams rarely were competitive against any top-flight opponents. His Notre Dame teams went 3-10 vs top 10 opponents, and one of those wins was in OT against a Trevor Lawrence-less Clemson.
He did a good job at Notre Dame and, as you said, was their best coach since Holtz. But I wouldn't assume that Brian Kelly hit Notre Dame's ceiling. Maybe he just hit his ceiling.



Your opinion is your opinion but losing a championship game meets my definition of on the brink.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 06:24:59 PM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
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Lennys Tap

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #616 on: November 30, 2021, 06:22:27 PM »
On the brink is a very generous view of losses by scores of 42-14 (at one point 35-0), 30-3, and 31-14 (at one point 31-7). Not just in playoff games, Kelly's teams rarely were competitive against any top-flight opponents. His Notre Dame teams went 3-10 vs top 10 opponents, and one of those wins was in OT against a Trevor Lawrence-less Clemson.
He did a good job at Notre Dame and, as you said, was their best coach since Holtz. But I wouldn't assume that Brian Kelly hit Notre Dame's ceiling. Maybe he just hit his ceiling.

Of course you’re right. “On the brink” is beyond generous. And saying Kelly is the best coach ND has ever had is as dumb as saying Mick Cronin is the best coach in UCLA history.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #617 on: November 30, 2021, 06:24:13 PM »
Of course you’re right. “On the brink” is beyond generous. And saying Kelly is the best coach ND has ever had is as dumb as saying Mick Cronin is the best coach in UCLA history.

Clearly you didn’t see my post where I walked that back. Reading multiple posts is too much for you to handle these days I guess.
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wadesworld

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #618 on: November 30, 2021, 06:53:52 PM »
Notre Dame has played in 1 national title game and made 2 national semifinals. What is “on the brink” if that isn’t?
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4everwarriors

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #619 on: November 30, 2021, 07:14:09 PM »
Any coach worth hiring will relish the challenge of taking on the best of the best most every week.




Yeah, 100 mil gives lottsa folks da nads ta take on da best, aina?
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MU82

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #620 on: November 30, 2021, 07:17:21 PM »
Wouldn’t it be something if what happens in the various conference title games this weekend results in ND making the playoffs … and if whoever coaches ND leads them to the title?

Would kinda blow a hole in the argument that Kelly had to leave ND to win a title.
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cheebs09

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #621 on: November 30, 2021, 07:23:15 PM »
Wouldn’t it be something if what happens in the various conference title games this weekend results in ND making the playoffs … and if whoever coaches ND leads them to the title?

Would kinda blow a hole in the argument that Kelly had to leave ND to win a title.

Fickell waits to see which of Cincy/ND makes the playoffs and goes from there?

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #622 on: November 30, 2021, 07:29:50 PM »
Notre Dame has played in 1 national title game and made 2 national semifinals. What is “on the brink” if that isn’t?

Notre Dame has been outclassed in all of those games. Could have replayed them 50 times and lost them all. They were on the brink of being embarrassed and humiliated. And then they were.

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #623 on: November 30, 2021, 07:51:22 PM »
Clearly you didn’t see my post where I walked that back. Reading multiple posts is too much for you to handle these days I guess.

So he’s gone from being the best in ND history to better than Bob Davie, Tyrone Willingham and Charlie Weis (big frickin’ deal) but not as good as Rockne, Leahy, Ara, Holtz and maybe Divine. That’s quite a walk back - why not just admit you originally said a dumb thing?


Pakuni

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Re: 2021-22 College Football thread
« Reply #624 on: November 30, 2021, 08:03:36 PM »
Notre Dame has played in 1 national title game and made 2 national semifinals. What is “on the brink” if that isn’t?

On the brink implies that something is close to happening. They were never close to a championship. Those games were non-competetive from the get-go.

 

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