K-12 Schools & COVID

[tower912]

Getting rid of teachers unions would be a good start for teachers to be paid fairly for the work they do. And treated like professionals by the administration and board,  not unskilled labor.

Another great joke celebrating Ziggys return. 

[pacearrow02]

What are you on?

Act 10 has been devastating for school districts and teachers across Wisconsin.

From what I remember didn’t Act10 essentially gave teachers the option to opt out of union membership if they didn’t find it beneficial and they wanted to save on paying union dues? 

I know teachers were also forced to chip in more for their benefits package but if my memory holds true the % they had to chip in was still well below private sector employee %s. 

Admittedly could be missing other details as to how it was so terrible for teachers so a refresher would be beneficial.

[Uncle Rico]

From what I remember didn’t Act10 essentially gave teachers the option to opt out of union membership if they didn’t find it beneficial and they wanted to save on paying union dues? 

I know teachers were also forced to chip in more for their benefits package but if my memory holds true the % they had to chip in was still well below private sector employee %s. 

Admittedly could be missing other details as to how it was so terrible for teachers so a refresher would be beneficial.

Lol

[lawdog77]

Here's a study:What I get out of it, conclusion is that higher school teachers are underpaid relative to other work, while grade school teachers often overreport the number of hours they work

https://watermark.silverchair.com/edfp_a_00133.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAp8wggKbBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKMMIICiAIBADCCAoEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQM7JPuc85Yr-HOizRoAgEQgIICUson-ZBGZw6cftKynXdcZ18WHKPKALtwXtsrS4qyeTAhhx0ZRtJSO6KtmW3iQs-ysEm8zWHVHAOMmqaYWF7h2at1i-iS1sREGvWzyS89r8i6g0RABFVLP5eOCglO1uE10X6i3uPXS3zUa9_Ewmmn-Vp2xmQZyHFNz5zEVhd4T93pHwGdQ1LZqPzhLs_4h7fk5Xg1Sg7mDm9imfA40l_TkJahLyviSne9qJp6toRGt2q2VBKyCagVPxexgRrf7mUlMG82ZVB3bw81p8pkAmd65mwbIbr-MlY-sza9OB3TNxCN_QqrQKxoN2CJlE8YNR3jZJ7Vfeobm4Lk5bT_GdfVN2uNQggN7elUX02JDHfinFn6Oq78ZVShYU3AJm6_eKp3RUELG5cLOGs-iuUm9fqc1g1vddb-RjHsWOIluB1aQq0v_RY6_GLtQ1VhByv2mAggWCPY1j3AqbVXDXqtQIv4nA8MB1bEqjan_HfXVhz_R3nVPeUt3S0QQbs8nc-op0owGP3vhdxDGo1NLD6viZmy9dSAvVRD50UuYXrrjYWr5XYuQ_OYSVuJpAmiH5zmAWeo7ytvie9dVuWbUj1ii_VarTANm8CSPy8NQ9SEL9qLXJq6iNinRcSNZeebdd7V0fSs1h2YZJpyJslOEWjbsvAWuuMnBFEL9f2nqv28KkS9wMFND-7IB9_PE9qGfd0LSVwVeGHpWXoV_Muwx31DQUz0RNIdkhj8bRw3-SciQ-jdNsnPslIKAwpacnydG7l208Cq_R7dnZgrQaUuHCBLaSPmplnOTg

[Uncle Rico]

Here's a study:What I get out of it, conclusion is that higher school teachers are underpaid relative to other work, while grade school teachers often overreport the number of hours they work

https://watermark.silverchair.com/edfp_a_00133.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAp8wggKbBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKMMIICiAIBADCCAoEGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQM7JPuc85Yr-HOizRoAgEQgIICUson-ZBGZw6cftKynXdcZ18WHKPKALtwXtsrS4qyeTAhhx0ZRtJSO6KtmW3iQs-ysEm8zWHVHAOMmqaYWF7h2at1i-iS1sREGvWzyS89r8i6g0RABFVLP5eOCglO1uE10X6i3uPXS3zUa9_Ewmmn-Vp2xmQZyHFNz5zEVhd4T93pHwGdQ1LZqPzhLs_4h7fk5Xg1Sg7mDm9imfA40l_TkJahLyviSne9qJp6toRGt2q2VBKyCagVPxexgRrf7mUlMG82ZVB3bw81p8pkAmd65mwbIbr-MlY-sza9OB3TNxCN_QqrQKxoN2CJlE8YNR3jZJ7Vfeobm4Lk5bT_GdfVN2uNQggN7elUX02JDHfinFn6Oq78ZVShYU3AJm6_eKp3RUELG5cLOGs-iuUm9fqc1g1vddb-RjHsWOIluB1aQq0v_RY6_GLtQ1VhByv2mAggWCPY1j3AqbVXDXqtQIv4nA8MB1bEqjan_HfXVhz_R3nVPeUt3S0QQbs8nc-op0owGP3vhdxDGo1NLD6viZmy9dSAvVRD50UuYXrrjYWr5XYuQ_OYSVuJpAmiH5zmAWeo7ytvie9dVuWbUj1ii_VarTANm8CSPy8NQ9SEL9qLXJq6iNinRcSNZeebdd7V0fSs1h2YZJpyJslOEWjbsvAWuuMnBFEL9f2nqv28KkS9wMFND-7IB9_PE9qGfd0LSVwVeGHpWXoV_Muwx31DQUz0RNIdkhj8bRw3-SciQ-jdNsnPslIKAwpacnydG7l208Cq_R7dnZgrQaUuHCBLaSPmplnOTg

That seems sensible based on my interactions with teachers of both stripes.  Just anecdotal, of course

[ZiggysFryBoy]

What are you on?

Act 10 has been devastating for school districts and teachers across Wisconsin.

Brainwashed

[tower912]

I hope the protestors enjoyed the pizzas I sent.   

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I hope the protestors enjoyed the pizzas I sent.

Ian's?

I'd rather eat St Louis style than that garbage.

[tower912]

I no longer have the receipts.  Someplace that was on the square then.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Getting rid of teachers unions would be a good start for teachers to be paid fairly for the work they do. And treated like professionals by the administration and board,  not unskilled labor.

Why yes, getting rid of the organization that fights for increased teachers' salary will surely lead to increased teachers' salaries.

Insights like this are what make you such a valuable poster.

[Hards Alumni]

Brainwashed

Well, at least you can admit it. 

[Hards Alumni]

Ian's?

I'd rather eat St Louis style than that garbage.

Almost Yep. 

I no longer have the receipts.  Someplace that was on the square then.

Yep

[Hards Alumni]

From what I remember didn’t Act10 essentially gave teachers the option to opt out of union membership if they didn’t find it beneficial and they wanted to save on paying union dues? 

I know teachers were also forced to chip in more for their benefits package but if my memory holds true the % they had to chip in was still well below private sector employee %s. 

Admittedly could be missing other details as to how it was so terrible for teachers so a refresher would be beneficial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wisconsin_Act_10

There.  Read.

If you don't know what union busting is, I can't help you. 

[pacearrow02]

Why yes, getting rid of the organization that fights for increased teachers' salary will surely lead to increased teachers' salaries.

Insights like this are what make you such a valuable poster.

Getting rid of the organization?  The teachers union in Wisconsin is still alive and well?  Did they lose tens of thousands of members who didn’t want to pay the dues, yep.  Did Act 10 outlaw unions, nope.

[pacearrow02]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wisconsin_Act_10

There.  Read.

If you don't know what union busting is, I can't help you.

You didn’t say it was devastating for unions, that I would have agreed with.  You said it’s been devastating for teachers and school districts, which is not the same nor true. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Why yes, getting rid of the organization that fights for increased teachers' salary will surely lead to increased teachers' salaries.

Insights like this are what make you such a valuable poster.

🐷🐷

[forgetful]

This is hilariously naive.  There are plenty of accountants, financial analysts, legal staff, etc... that aren't receiving fat bonuses.  People see "finance" and assume they are all Gordon Gekko.  You really think most people in finance are bringing down $70K bonuses every year?

My uncle was an immigration attorney for 30+ years.  I don't think he ever broke $85K, and that was in Boston, not the Midwest.  He absolutely wouldn't have had a job if he punched out at 5 every day.  There are plenty of people in the legal profession that aren't highly compensated white shoe Harvey Spectors.

Again, this is not to say "f teachers, they have enough".  There is certainly changes that need to be made in how the profession is approached, recruited for, and compensated.  But the discussion can't be buoyed by false assumptions and comparisons.

Frankly, and I hate to say such things, but your response was extremely naive, and misrepresented what I said. I never said anyone was getting $70k bonuses. I said it wasn't "uncommon" for high billable hours attorneys to get bonuses that rival the "take home" pay of many teachers. That take home pay is less than 40k (much less in many states).

For some reference.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business-and-practice/big-law-always-willing-to-pay-more-as-bonuses-reach-100-000

Now for the part where your response was actually quite naive, your uncle was an immigration attorney by choice. He could have been in corporate law, where he would have easily taken home $130-160k, with large annual bonuses, or IT ~$140k, or several other high paying law specialties. Your uncle happened to choose one of the lowest compensated specialties...his choice. Teachers don't have that choice. Their salaries are poor across the board.

[🏀]

Unions are all unskilled labor?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Unions are all unskilled labor?

Yours sure is.

[🏀]

Yours sure is.

🤣

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Yours sure is.

The value you add cannot be overstated.

[Jay Bee]

Frankly, and I hate to say such things, but your response was extremely naive, and misrepresented what I said. I never said anyone was getting $70k bonuses. I said it wasn't "uncommon" for high billable hours attorneys to get bonuses that rival the "take home" pay of many teachers. That take home pay is less than 40k (much less in many states).

You also said, “ What you don't get, or don't acknowledge, is all those other jobs you are talking about are very well compensated.

Teachers are not.

Also, in addition to their normal salaries, if they are deemed to put a lot of extra time in (e.g. billable hours for an attorney), they get bonuses”

That is, you claimed ALL those other jobs are well compensated and that bonuses were given, without exclusions, if they are “deemed to put a lot of extra time”

You are wrong

[JWags85]

Frankly, and I hate to say such things, but your response was extremely naive, and misrepresented what I said. I never said anyone was getting $70k bonuses. I said it wasn't "uncommon" for high billable hours attorneys to get bonuses that rival the "take home" pay of many teachers. That take home pay is less than 40k (much less in many states).

For some reference.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business-and-practice/big-law-always-willing-to-pay-more-as-bonuses-reach-100-000

Now for the part where your response was actually quite naive, your uncle was an immigration attorney by choice. He could have been in corporate law, where he would have easily taken home $130-160k, with large annual bonuses, or IT ~$140k, or several other high paying law specialties. Your uncle happened to choose one of the lowest compensated specialties...his choice. Teachers don't have that choice. Their salaries are poor across the board.

Using big law salaries to speak to the legal profession as a whole is misrepresentation, as is using hedge fund managers or Goldman I Bankers to speak to finance as a whole.

You think there are enough cushy legal jobs that every law school graduate can just slide into a fat corporate law, big white shoe law, or IT law role?  Thats like insinuating every college basketball player can make big bucks professionally after graduating.

I brought up my uncle as an example that there are MANY lawyers who work more than a 9-5 who aren't banking tons of compensation.  Yes they chose their specific field, but its also a job that needs to be done.  Much like teachers choose their specific field, a job that needs to be done.  Nobody is forcing them to teach.  So thats a weak argument.  If my uncle could have simply chose a different law path, well then a teacher could simply choose a better paying profession.  But neither did cause they were passionate about a field that helped people.

You've also suggested in the past, if im not mistaken, that teachers deserve "massively higher salaries".  I'm genuinely curious to what salary levels you think are reasonable.

[tower912]

JB, your love of numbers, experience with teenagers, and affinity for precision would make you a great high school math teacher.   Consider a career change.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

The value you add cannot be overstated.

🐷🐷