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Author Topic: Vaccine/Antibody updates  (Read 166470 times)

Pakuni

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3075 on: July 21, 2021, 09:27:40 AM »
I would wager that at least 85% of the adult mortality has a pre existing condition. At least the ones. I’ve worked with.

But the vast majority of those pre-existing conditions were not terminal, if not for the COVID infection, right?

MU82

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3076 on: July 21, 2021, 09:42:03 AM »
But the vast majority of those pre-existing conditions were not terminal, if not for the COVID infection, right?

Yep. A 65-year-old woman has diabetes. She's been managing it successfully for 20 years with meds and diet. There is no reason to believe she won't live another 10 or 15 or 20 years, get to enjoy her grandchildren and friends. Then she gets COVID-19 and dies.

Without the pre-existing condition, yes, she might still be alive. But without COVID-19, she almost certainly would have lived many more years. And yet there are many who would argue that isn't really a "COVID-19 death." (I am NOT saying or suggesting MUDPT is arguing that.)
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

JWags85

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3077 on: July 21, 2021, 10:40:03 AM »
Yep. A 65-year-old woman has diabetes. She's been managing it successfully for 20 years with meds and diet. There is no reason to believe she won't live another 10 or 15 or 20 years, get to enjoy her grandchildren and friends. Then she gets COVID-19 and dies.

Without the pre-existing condition, yes, she might still be alive. But without COVID-19, she almost certainly would have lived many more years. And yet there are many who would argue that isn't really a "COVID-19 death." (I am NOT saying or suggesting MUDPT is arguing that.)

Thats fine, but at the same time, broad brush comparing those with pre-existing conditions and the general population when it comes to infection and mortality statistics isnt exactly kosher, especially when it comes to things like diabetes or asthma or the like.  This entire pandemic has had news sources or commentators playing fast and loose with percentages to drum up anxiety and gain eyeballs.

MU82

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3078 on: July 21, 2021, 10:56:11 AM »
Thats fine, but at the same time, broad brush comparing those with pre-existing conditions and the general population when it comes to infection and mortality statistics isnt exactly kosher, especially when it comes to things like diabetes or asthma or the like.  This entire pandemic has had news sources or commentators playing fast and loose with percentages to drum up anxiety and gain eyeballs.

I suppose. But of course, those who are playing fast and loose with the numbers in making believe this hasn't been a catastrophic event, that it's the flu or even the common cold, to gain eyeballs ... that definitely "isn't exactly kosher." And as a bonus, it's no doubt contributed to many choosing not to get vaccinated.

I have seen numerous studies that show the actual COVID-19 death toll actually has been underreported, and likely significantly so. (Such as this one -- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210520145335.htm -- and there are plenty more.)

I guess we'll never know who is "right." But I hope we all can agree the pandemic has been a horrific, tragic event.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

tower912

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3079 on: July 21, 2021, 10:59:07 AM »
And what percentage of Americans have a comorbidity?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Pakuni

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3080 on: July 21, 2021, 11:25:03 AM »
Thats fine, but at the same time, broad brush comparing those with pre-existing conditions and the general population when it comes to infection and mortality statistics isnt exactly kosher, especially when it comes to things like diabetes or asthma or the like.  This entire pandemic has had news sources or commentators playing fast and loose with percentages to drum up anxiety and gain eyeballs.

40 percent of American adults are obese.
13 percent of American adults have diabetes.
8 percent of American adults have asthma.
14 percent of American adults suffer chronic kidney disease.
About 1.7 million Americans are diagnosed with cancer every year, and one in three will have it in their lifetime.

These are not insignificant populations we're talking about, Wags. And again, the vast majority of COVID fatalities with comorbidities are people who would not have died if not for the COVID. Any effort to distinguish these people as "not the general population" is simply downplaying their deaths and the ravages of the disease. If 40 percent, or 1 in 3, isn't the general population, what is?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:43:00 AM by Pakuni »

JWags85

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3081 on: July 21, 2021, 12:12:58 PM »
40 percent of American adults are obese.
13 percent of American adults have diabetes.
8 percent of American adults have asthma.
14 percent of American adults suffer chronic kidney disease.
About 1.7 million Americans are diagnosed with cancer every year, and one in three will have it in their lifetime.

These are not insignificant populations we're talking about, Wags. And again, the vast majority of COVID fatalities with comorbidities are people who would not have died if not for the COVID. Any effort to distinguish these people as "not the general population" is simply downplaying their deaths and the ravages of the disease. If 40 percent, or 1 in 3, isn't the general population, what is?

Ok, what are those percentages for adults under 65?  (I believe something like 25% of adults over 65 have some form of diabetes).  Same for kidney disease.  We already well know the risk factors of COVID and advancing age.

Obesity is also tricky.  Cause nearly half the adult population qualifying as obese yet there are still barely 25K deaths in the under 50 demographic.

Nobody in this discussion here is downplaying this or saying its not "catastrophic".  But not everyone's situation is created equal and calling that out isn't being insensitive to their struggles. I'm not defending anti-vaxxers or those politicizing the BS.  But when discussing children, using percentages and risk factors for adult populations seems out of bounds.

I'm vaccinated.  Im fully in favor for vaccination.  Im all for the argument about vaccinating to protect others around you.  But I'm tired, and have been tired, for a long time about the fearmongering over individual risk for many segments of the population.

And again, we're talking mortality.  Please don't anybody pivot this and start throwing out stuff about long haulers and "non fatal" consequences.  I'm not a COVID denier

Pakuni

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3082 on: July 21, 2021, 12:45:55 PM »
Wags ... What's your point, then? I've never thought of you as an anti-vaxxer or COVID denier, but I have no idea exactly what you're getting at
That the deaths of those with survivable pre-existing conditions - which includes hundreds of millions of Americans - is somehow different than other deaths?
That the lives of those over the age of 65 are less valuable?

And of course you don't want to talk about long haulers and finger quotes - nonfatal - finger quotes consequences, because doing so kind of ruins whatever point you're making.
You can't seriously claims to be a person who takes science and COVID seriously while making the case that some people - excepting those with medical issues preventing it - shouldn't be vaccinated.

JWags85

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3083 on: July 21, 2021, 01:13:52 PM »
Wags ... What's your point, then? I've never thought of you as an anti-vaxxer or COVID denier, but I have no idea exactly what you're getting at
That the deaths of those with survivable pre-existing conditions - which includes hundreds of millions of Americans - is somehow different than other deaths?
That the lives of those over the age of 65 are less valuable?

And of course you don't want to talk about long haulers and finger quotes - nonfatal - finger quotes consequences, because doing so kind of ruins whatever point you're making.
You can't seriously claims to be a person who takes science and COVID seriously while making the case that some people - excepting those with medical issues preventing it - shouldn't be vaccinated.

We talk about differing risks all the time.  Its in every medicine/pharmaceutical ad.  Of course those over 65 aren't less valuable.  But talking about them and 20/30/40 somethings in the same breath about anything related to COVID (except the critical need to be vaccinated) is bad messaging.

And nowhere did I say people shouldn't be vaccinated.  If people are waiting for more approvals or whatnot before children are vaccinated, thats something i suppose but  I was just agreeing that threat of death or serious illness is disingenuous messaging when discussing kids.

Whats my overall point?  As I said, over a year later and we still seemingly miss the point that for many many people, the reason for vaccination is protecting the most vulnerable.  Yet I feel like so much of the messaging is "get vaccinated or die/be hospitalized" which isn't likely for many people under the age of 65 and thus easy for selfish idiots to ignore.  Doom and gloom isn't effective anymore other than driving clicks.  I'm exhausted by the messaging so I call it out.  Many others just ignore it.

Pakuni

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3084 on: July 21, 2021, 01:40:28 PM »
Whats my overall point?  As I said, over a year later and we still seemingly miss the point that for many many people, the reason for vaccination is protecting the most vulnerable.  Yet I feel like so much of the messaging is "get vaccinated or die/be hospitalized" which isn't likely for many people under the age of 65 and thus easy for selfish idiots to ignore.  Doom and gloom isn't effective anymore other than driving clicks.  I'm exhausted by the messaging so I call it out.  Many others just ignore it.

Why is "protecting the vulnerable" suddenly the reason for vaccination? And why is death the only outcome that matters to you?
People don't get their annual influenza shot to "protect the vulnerable." They do it to avoid getting sick.
As I mentioned earlier, before the chickenpox vaccine, the chances of dying from it were less than 1 in 1,000,000. And yet we require it for schoolchildren and hardly anyone makes a fuss. Same with measles. Why is COVID different?

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3085 on: July 21, 2021, 01:49:58 PM »
Unlike a medicine that someone gets at the pharmacy, vaccination doesn't just protect the person receiving it, but it helps a communicable disease from spreading.  Most people are going to survive many diseases just fine.  Something like 3% of those who get polio for instance are going to end up with paralysis.  It is really a way for even healthy people to step up and help their community.  Which is exactly why people in our selfish society are only thinking of themselves or their close loved ones, and not the vulnerable person two blocks over who can't get vaccinated for whatever reason.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3086 on: July 21, 2021, 01:55:30 PM »
The reasons for the vaccine is to protect everybody, Wags.

Some people don't even know they are among the "most vulnerable" until it's too late.

It took them long enough, but I'm heartened that many Republicans and even some of the Fox News anti-everythingers are getting on board.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/growing-number-of-republicans-urge-vaccinations-amid-delta-surge/2021/07/20/52a06e9c-e999-11eb-8950-d73b3e93ff7f_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F3433389%2F60f84b259d2fda945a1005ab%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F43%2F70%2F60f84b259d2fda945a1005ab

Obviously, some are lost causes like dangerous Q-Anon wingnut MTG, but it's good to see that even some who called COVID-19 a "hoax" are saying everybody should get vaccinated.

I don't say "get vaccinated or die/be hospitalized." I say get vaccinated - period. Or at the very least, don't obstruct those who are trying to get people vaccinated.

And sorry, but I don't feel guilty for talking about cases of previously healthy 8-year-olds catching COVID-19 from unvaccinated relatives and ending up in bad shape, even if it's only a few of them. Those 8-year-olds matter, and so do the next 8-year-olds who might be at risk because of the selfish adults in their lives.

“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

Jockey

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3087 on: July 21, 2021, 01:59:52 PM »
Why is "protecting the vulnerable" suddenly the reason for vaccination? And why is death the only outcome that matters to you?
People don't get their annual influenza shot to "protect the vulnerable." They do it to avoid getting sick.
As I mentioned earlier, before the chickenpox vaccine, the chances of dying from it were less than 1 in 1,000,000. And yet we require it for schoolchildren and hardly anyone makes a fuss. Same with measles. Why is COVID different?

"Protecting the vulnerable" is the reason for measles vaccinations. That is why the vaccine is given to infants as most deaths are in children under 5. Measles killed more than 140,000 people 2018, according to estimates from WHO and the CDC. 


I am not arguing with your overall point.

shoothoops

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3088 on: July 21, 2021, 02:11:27 PM »
I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html

Hards_Alumni

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3089 on: July 21, 2021, 02:30:51 PM »
I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html

Just sayin'

Skatastrophy

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3090 on: July 21, 2021, 03:21:17 PM »
Just sayin'

More or less believable than an emotional MUScoop post?

shoothoops

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3091 on: July 21, 2021, 04:07:30 PM »
More than half of of the 146 COVID-19 patients at Mercy Springfield are under the age of 60. They will be needing a 3rd COVID-19 ICU. 8 percent vaccinated:

https://twitter.com/caomercysgf/status/1417871150722453506?s=21

Jockey

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3092 on: July 21, 2021, 07:03:17 PM »
More than half of of the 146 COVID-19 patients at Mercy Springfield are under the age of 60. They will be needing a 3rd COVID-19 ICU. 8 percent vaccinated:

https://twitter.com/caomercysgf/status/1417871150722453506?s=21

Apparently, they don't care if they die.

MU82

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3093 on: July 22, 2021, 08:07:10 AM »
NYT just ran an article about what some were talking about earlier: Many hospitals, clinics and other health-care systems do not require employees to be vaccinated, though every week more are mandating them:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/21/health/covid-vaccine-hospitals.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210722&instance_id=35950&nl=the-morning&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=64106&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa

UPDATE:

My wife's employer and the other major hospital/medical group in NC just today announced that all employees must be vaccinated.

My wife is friends with her department head, who said that they ultimately decided that if requiring vaccinations leads to some employees leaving, those employees weren't the ones they wanted trying to keep/get their patients healthy anyway.

Or as the CEO concluded in his email to employees:

We also want to assure you that this was not a decision we took lightly. The reason for this policy is simply stated: We must take all necessary measures to protect each other, our patients and the communities we serve – especially in combating the various new and very concerning variants.

It's about time!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:53:19 PM by MU82 »
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

jesmu84

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3094 on: July 22, 2021, 01:21:35 PM »
Have we had the discussion yet about costs of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

Those who choose to go without the vaccine, get sick and require medical treatment, are (if they have insurance) paying their deductible/co pay and then relying on the vaccinated to pay for the treatment.

Seems... screwed up to me.

MU82

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3095 on: July 22, 2021, 01:50:21 PM »
Have we had the discussion yet about costs of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?

Those who choose to go without the vaccine, get sick and require medical treatment, are (if they have insurance) paying their deductible/co pay and then relying on the vaccinated to pay for the treatment.

Seems... screwed up to me.

Yep. I had thought about this a lot. It's kind of like ... um ... what's that evil word? ... welfare!

“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3096 on: July 22, 2021, 02:36:46 PM »
Yep. I had thought about this a lot. It's kind of like ... um ... what's that evil word? ... welfare!

Or, um, you know, insurance.   ::)

Hards_Alumni

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3097 on: July 22, 2021, 02:54:20 PM »
Or, um, you know, insurance.   ::)

Uh, do you honestly think that everyone who is turning up at the hospital has insurance?

MU82

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3098 on: July 22, 2021, 07:39:16 PM »
A Yahoo News/YouGov poll conducted July 13-15 and released Tuesday found that more unvaccinated Americans think the COVID-19 vaccines pose the greater risk to their personal health than think the coronavirus poses the greater risk.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252919518.html?

Overall, 61% of respondents said the coronavirus poses a greater risk to their personal health than the COVID-19 vaccines, while 18% said the vaccines pose a greater risk than the coronavirus and 21% said they are not sure.

But when broken down by vaccination status, the poll found 29% of respondents who are not vaccinated think the virus poses the greater risk and 37% think the vaccines pose the greater risk. Another 34% said they are not sure.


In other news, the majority of unvaccinated Americans are not very bright.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

Jockey

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Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
« Reply #3099 on: July 22, 2021, 08:33:07 PM »
A Yahoo News/YouGov poll conducted July 13-15 and released Tuesday found that more unvaccinated Americans think the COVID-19 vaccines pose the greater risk to their personal health than think the coronavirus poses the greater risk.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252919518.html?

Overall, 61% of respondents said the coronavirus poses a greater risk to their personal health than the COVID-19 vaccines, while 18% said the vaccines pose a greater risk than the coronavirus and 21% said they are not sure.

But when broken down by vaccination status, the poll found 29% of respondents who are not vaccinated think the virus poses the greater risk and 37% think the vaccines pose the greater risk. Another 34% said they are not sure.


In other news, the majority of unvaccinated Americans are not very bright.

Then they whine when we call them ignorant.