Brendon Bailey article in Church News

[Galway Eagle]

He shouldn't be because he isn't your normal sophomore age wise. He turned 22 last spring.

When I think of MU "all timers" I think D Wade, Butch Lee, Meminger, Luke, GT, Jimmy Chones and Bo. Next tier Markus, Kojis, Tatum, JFB, Jae, T Smith and Travis. 3rd tier Dom, Wesley, Lazar, Whitehead and Jerel.

If BB ends up in tier 3 I'll be very happy - but to me that's not an MU "all timer".

Where's Frozena on this list?

[Silent Verbal]

To say at this very moment that Bailey will be an all-timer at MU is just pure, unabashed slurpery.  As a 21 year old freshman, he averaged 3.2ppg and 1.8rpg.  He shot 34% from the field, 25% from 3, and 64% from the line.  Maybe he'll blossom into a good player, but where does one get "all-timer" from what we've seen so far?

[Uncle Rico]

To say at this very moment that Bailey will be an all-timer at MU is just pure, unabashed slurpery.  As a 21 year old freshman, he averaged 3.2ppg and 1.8rpg.  He shot 34% from the field, 25% from 3, and 64% from the line.  Maybe he'll blossom into a good player, but where does one get "all-timer" from what we've seen so far?

Forget it Jake, it's ScoopTown

[harryp]

Lenny -- you missed a few very good players:Lloyd Walton,Bo Ellis, George Thompson,Earl Tatum, and Terry Rand to name a few.

[Cheeks]

So just someone who's name is associated with an era of success or what?

Yes, or a particular skill...assists, 3 point shooter, rebounder, shot blocker.

Jimmy Mac is an all timer in shot blocking, he isn't in the top 35 greatest MU players, probably not top 50.

[Cheeks]

To say at this very moment that Bailey will be an all-timer at MU is just pure, unabashed slurpery.  As a 21 year old freshman, he averaged 3.2ppg and 1.8rpg.  He shot 34% from the field, 25% from 3, and 64% from the line.  Maybe he'll blossom into a good player, but where does one get "all-timer" from what we've seen so far?

Yup, it is way to early to tell...but I think he has the potential to be a special player at MU.  Happy to be a slurper from day one with this young man.

[Billy Hoyle]

How many of those 7 come from the stock of BB's athletic parents?

How did Michael Jordan's sons do in college ball? This sounds a little Jimmy The Greekish

[Cheeks]

How did Michael Jordan's sons do in college ball? This sounds a little Jimmy The Greekish

Wes Matthews parents were both D1 athletes, as are BB's.  Not sure who Michael Jordan married.  No guarantees in life, of course.  Examples on all sides.  I just found the Mormon mission example to be pretty weak.

[brewcity77]

Wes Matthews parents were both D1 athletes, as are BB's.  Not sure who Michael Jordan married.  No guarantees in life, of course.  Examples on all sides.  I just found the Mormon mission example to be pretty weak.

It's certainly stronger than your inference that his lineage will predict his future. Plenty of successful athletes had non-athletically successful children. Plenty of non-athletes produced highly athletically successful children. That's a total non-sequitur.

At least Paint Touches did some research to support their claim. Unless you have stronger evidence to support your claim, probably best to wade back out of the conversation.

[Cheeks]

It's certainly stronger than your inference that his lineage will predict his future. Plenty of successful athletes had non-athletically successful children. Plenty of non-athletes produced highly athletically successful children. That's a total non-sequitur.

At least Paint Touches did some research to support their claim. Unless you have stronger evidence to support your claim, probably best to wade back out of the conversation.

It is stronger...really?  So Mormons going on missions, despite what their actual ability is, is more important in how they will do than genetics?  Lol. 

Could it possibly be the Mormon mission athletes you chose as your sample, maybe a few were just pedestrian to begin with and Mormon mission or not they weren't going to do much?  On,y two were even top 150 guys....so yes, I find it weak.

[brewcity77]

It is stronger...really?  So Mormons going on missions, despite what their actual ability is, is more important in how they will do than genetics?  Lol. 

Could it possibly be the Mormon mission athletes you chose as your sample, maybe a few were just pedestrian to begin with and Mormon mission or not they weren't going to do much?  On,y two were even top 150 guys....so yes, I find it weak.

What you are foolishly dismissing is that this is a lack of progression after their careers have already begun. So regardless of the level they came in at, whether a top-150 recruit playing for say BYU or a top-250 recruit playing for Utah Valley, they established a production level as freshmen that they were unable to improve upon in their sophomore year.

The adage and assumption is that freshmen automatically improve when they become sophomores. While it's sometimes true, there are cases (Jamal Cain) where it is decidedly the opposite. Part of the reason this is assumed to be true is because of the age of these young men. Going from 18 to 19 in a collegiate strength training program is likely a big jump. The difference with those that took a mission is they are older, so the expected physical jump would be less significant.

Regardless, unless you have stronger evidence to support your own claim, which clearly you do not as you have not bombarded the thread with vaguely related links or even anecdotal evidence, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

[lawdog77]

who were the two top 150 guys?

[brewcity77]

who were the two top 150 guys?

You'd have to ask pux90mex.

[Cheeks]

FWIW, exercise caution with expectations. I'm also high on Bailey's ceiling, but Paint Touches noted...

"of the 28 players in the last 7 years to take a Mormon mission, only 2 saw a 'jump' up in their 2nd year back.

And of the 2 that were ranked in the top-150 coming out of high school, one actually saw a dip in year 2."

I'd be curious what the criteria that was used....or what a "jump" means.

Payton Dustrup of BYU improved scoring his second year back
Crew Ainge also improved his second year back.
Quinn Taylor same
Richard Harward same
Connor Toolson same
Sam Merrill same

A few others were flat in scoring, but improved assists and steals.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny -- you missed a few very good players:Lloyd Walton,Bo Ellis, George Thompson,Earl Tatum, and Terry Rand to name a few.

Harry,

Please reread my post - Bo = Bo Ellis, GT = George Thompson, Tatum = Earl Tatum.

Walton and Rand were very good but just missed the list for me.

[Lennys Tap]

He will be in the top 5 all time leading scorer for quite some time...so yes, an all timer.   Let's not confuse all-timer with greatest or one of the greatest.  If people are misconstruing that, let me put that to bed right now.

Steve Novak is an all-timer at MU, I wouldn't rate him in the top 15 best MU players.  Hopefully that adds some clarity.

So an "all timer" at Marquette doesn't mean one of the all time best at Marquette. Hmmm...Interesting. Not one of MU's top 5, not one of MU's  top 10, not one of MU's top 15. Top 20? Top 30? Top 50? As good as Novak? Who's at the bottom of your MU "all timer" list that BB will supplant? IMO your definition is so vague that it is meaningless.

[harryp]

Lenny -- sorry I missed you initials

[79Warrior]

What you are foolishly dismissing is that this is a lack of progression after their careers have already begun. So regardless of the level they came in at, whether a top-150 recruit playing for say BYU or a top-250 recruit playing for Utah Valley, they established a production level as freshmen that they were unable to improve upon in their sophomore year.

The adage and assumption is that freshmen automatically improve when they become sophomores. While it's sometimes true, there are cases (Jamal Cain) where it is decidedly the opposite. Part of the reason this is assumed to be true is because of the age of these young men. Going from 18 to 19 in a collegiate strength training program is likely a big jump. The difference with those that took a mission is they are older, so the expected physical jump would be less significant.

Regardless, unless you have stronger evidence to support your own claim, which clearly you do not as you have not bombarded the thread with vaguely related links or even anecdotal evidence, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

That's his usual garbage.

[tower912]

If the facts aren't on your side, argue the law.   If the law isn't on your side, argue the facts.If the poll numbers aren't on your side, argue principle.   If the principle you are defending is distasteful, argue polls.  When everything is against you, pound the table and yell endlessly.

[lawdog77]

I am on Team Chicos on this. Two Top 150 is such a small sample size. Also, define a jump.

[Dr. Blackheart]

It is stronger...really?  So Mormons going on missions, despite what their actual ability is, is more important in how they will do than genetics?  Lol. 

Could it possibly be the Mormon mission athletes you chose as your sample, maybe a few were just pedestrian to begin with and Mormon mission or not they weren't going to do much?  On,y two were even top 150 guys....so yes, I find it weak.

The Legend made a good living and a name for himself with LDS Missionaries, hey?

[Cheeks]

That's his usual garbage.

I provided a number of names...all of them improved statistically so I'd like to know what the "jump" is...then maybe you can comment about garbage.  Thanks.

[Cheeks]

The Legend made a good living and a name for himself with LDS Missionaries, hey?

Yes

https://art19.com/shows/aggies-all-the-way-sports-podcast/episodes/8b06748c-f832-44fa-879c-6d4224316cfa

[Cheeks]

So an "all timer" at Marquette doesn't mean one of the all time best at Marquette. Hmmm...Interesting. Not one of MU's top 5, not one of MU's  top 10, not one of MU's top 15. Top 20? Top 30? Top 50? As good as Novak? Who's at the bottom of your MU "all timer" list that BB will supplant? IMO your definition is so vague that it is meaningless.

I thought I explained it, but will give it another go.

Is Jim Macilvaine one of MU's all time best shot blockers?  Is he one of MU's all time best players?
Is Steve Novak one of MU's all time best 3 point shooters? Is he one of MU's all time best players?
Is Tony Miller one of MU's all time assist men / point guards?  Is he one of MU's all time best players?
Is Jerel McNeal one of MU's all time scorers?  Is he one of MU's all time best players?


You can have your definition, I can have mine.  Some of the guys above are all timers in specific areas, which I explained, but doesn't necessarily make them the greatest players overall at MU.  I could have thrown at least 20 other guys there that fit that criteria.

I think BB has a chance to be special. I hope I am right.  Go Warriors.

[lawdog77]

I'd be curious what the criteria that was used....or what a "jump" means.

Payton Dustrup of BYU improved scoring his second year back
Crew Ainge also improved his second year back.
Quinn Taylor same
Richard Harward same
Connor Toolson same
Sam Merrill same

A few others were flat in scoring, but improved assists and steals.

http://www.ldsliving.com/USU-Guard-and-Returned-Missionary-Talks-Toughness-40-Other-Returned-Missionaries-Playing-College-Basketball/s/90308

Jordan Chatman is another, I think.