I place this all on the coaching staff.

[GOO]

I apparently have a higher (less realistic?) bar for Wojo and for the MU program most years than others. I won't be down on Wojo if we make the tournament with a 7-10 seed. I won't go out of my way to praise him for simply meeting my expectations either. Maybe my expectations are too high, but with our roster next year, I expect to have a top 25 team competing for a good seed come March. I don't think that's overly optimistic.

As far as getting recruits, do you think we get Markus without Stan? Markus committed to ASU over Marquette at first. Wojo had given his pitch, and Markus didn't bite. When Stan left ASU for Marquette, so did Markus. I wonder what changed at MU...? I think you have to give Stan more credit for landing Markus than Wojo.

My take on Wojo is similar to many people's take on Willard. Get a few good dudes, win some ballgames, but the jury could be out in terms of overall ability.

I would assume he came to MU because of Stan.  Maybe he changes at his first choice would have led him to MU anyway.  But I assume it was mainly Stan. But so what.  This is how it works.  Who hired Stan?  If he hired someone else who did a great job recruiting or brought a recruit with him, do you then discount that recruit?  By your logic, of course you do.  If Wojo is a stiff, he probably doesn't follow Stan.  But give Wojo credit for getting Stan here.  And when Stan leaves, hopefully Wojo hits another home run with his assistant hire.

[brewcity77]

Rebuilds don't need to take 5 years.

A rebuild can be done very quickly these days.

People keep saying things like this. I think it's false. Where are these magical 2-3 year turnarounds that sustain success? How many coaches are able to do that? Please give some examples of rebuilds where they occurred quickly, in a 2-3 year window with 100% roster turnover (because it's not a rebuild until it's all your own guys) and managed to sustain success.

I'll hang up and wait for the answers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hang on hang on. I said I would look into it....I just forgot it was Valentine's Day when I said it. Gotta keep the Mrs happy and then I'll do some research

[Dr. Blackheart]

Hang on hang on. I said I would look into it....I just forgot it was Valentine's Day when I said it. Gotta keep the Mrs happy and then I'll do some research

It's over a year of marriage.  We await your answer in 10 seconds.

[BM1090]

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Many in our fanbase expected a jump this year, given that the roster was now ALL Wojo's players.  That hasn't happened. In fact, we appear headed for regression.  I'm optimistic for next year  I feel Wojo has improved as a coach.  He still has room for improvement.  Just not sure I see a very high ceiling, which means elite talent will be needed in order to win at a Sweet 16 caliber level.

Who said this? Where?

Maybe a couple people. Surely not many. Most expected a step back after losing 4 seniors and a RS JR

[The Lens]

I love this idea that slow & steady automatically equals sustained success. 

Furthermore if we make the S16 next season and Wojo takes the Wake job was that a smart investment of 5 years?  If we know Wojo is in for 10 years, then fine.  I just don't believe that.  So I'm not sure throwing away 4 years makes the most sense. 

[real chili 83]

Hang on hang on. I said I would look into it....I just forgot it was Valentine's Day when I said it. Gotta keep the Mrs happy and then I'll do some research

Good luck.

[brewcity77]

I love this idea that slow & steady automatically equals sustained success. 

Furthermore if we make the S16 next season and Wojo takes the Wake job was that a smart investment of 5 years?  If we know Wojo is in for 10 years, then fine.  I just don't believe that.  So I'm not sure throwing away 4 years makes the most sense.

Nothing is automatic or guaranteed, but it's pretty clear that the next two years were what we have been building to. Why throw away what we've done right as we get to the point where the rubber meets the road?

As far as Wojo leaving, again, nothing is guaranteed. We don't know if he's here for 5, 10, or 30. Unless we pull the rug and go back to zero we'll never know with him or any other coach.  The only way it's truly "throwing away 4 years" is to start over.

Also, I'd still be interested in your examples of these quick, sustained rebuilds.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Also, I'd still be interested in your examples of these quick, sustained rebuilds.

Everyone acts like it has taken everyone x number of years...it doesn't....some good coaches took a while..some didnt..some were able to keep things rolling.

Just a quick google.

Rick Barnes...much of his career has had strong runs of success.  Jamie Dixon kept Pitt rolling...Buzz Williams kept MU rolling...X hasnt had problems...Butler has done well...Lon Kruger has made a whole career out of doing the impossible.

Everyone of those guys had to rebuild the team in their likeness at some point to continue success.  So for them to be successful they had to have all of their own guys (but many were able to make it work with what was left too).

You may say well Wojo came into a Napalm situation (really just one bad year for MU)...He basically is on the Scott Drew or Tom Crean plan though...now that was coming back from Napalm.  If our situation was that bad then shame on us because it was self-inflicted.

At the end of the day Wojo deserves another year at least -- but the good coaches give you more tangible things to get excited then we have actually experienced (so far more promise than results and that needs to change).  This is why I believe this is a continued topic of discussion.

PS - What is sustained 'rebuild' anyway.  Basically we are hoping for a legend...

[WarriorDad]

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Many in our fanbase expected a jump this year, given that the roster was now ALL Wojo's players.  That hasn't happened. In fact, we appear headed for regression.  I'm optimistic for next year  I feel Wojo has improved as a coach.  He still has room for improvement.  Just not sure I see a very high ceiling, which means elite talent will be needed in order to win at a Sweet 16 caliber level.

Are they expected to increase year over year until all you have is 12 guys that are first round NBA picks?  How reasonable are you going to be since recruiting is not an exact science?   

Is it also not possible that this roster is more talented than previous rosters, but talent alone doesn't win games. Experience matters.  Give me a senior laden team of 3 star recruits over a freshmen dominated team of 4 star recruits.  The talent may be stronger with the freshmen, but experience is a vital element.

Many in this fanbase expected NIT this year, seems you and others were the ones perhaps not noticing size, youth, inexperience.

[brewcity77]

Everyone acts like it has taken everyone x number of years...it doesn't....some good coaches took a while..some didnt..some were able to keep things rolling.

Just a quick google.

Rick Barnes...much of his career has had strong runs of success.  Jamie Dixon kept Pitt rolling...Buzz Williams kept MU rolling...X hasnt had problems...Butler has done well...Lon Kruger has made a whole career out of doing the impossible.

Everyone of those guys had to rebuild the team in their likeness at some point to continue success.  So for them to be successful they had to have all of their own guys (but many were able to make it work with what was left too).

You may say well Wojo came into a Napalm situation (really just one bad year for MU)...He basically is on the Scott Drew or Tom Crean plan though...now that was coming back from Napalm.  If our situation was that bad then shame on us because it was self-inflicted.

At the end of the day Wojo deserves another year at least -- but the good coaches give you more tangible things to get excited then we have actually experienced (so far more promise than results and that needs to change).  This is why I believe this is a continued topic of discussion.

PS - What is sustained 'rebuild' anyway.  Basically we are hoping for a legend...

Last things first, I'd consider a sustained rebuild where you take over a program, get your own guys in, start winning and keep winning. Both Barnes and Krueger are excellent examples. Both are also likely Hall of Famers when it's all said and done. They both are in the top-32 all time in coaching wins and will likely be in the top-20 all-time if they each go 5+ more years. You are exactly right when you say "hoping for a legend". But if you want that guy, you have to give them time to succeed. 4 years, in my opinion, isn't enough time, especially when you see a team that is young and about to get old.

Dixon, Buzz, and Mack all took over perennial tourney teams that returned a ton of talent. I don't think of those as rebuilds at all. I would grant Buzz and Dixon on their current jobs, though either could miss the tourney this year still, so I'm not sure either is that much further ahead than Wojo even if we miss this year. I believe in Dixon and Mack because both stuck around long enough to prove they could keep it going. Buzz didn't, and I think the jury will be out until he gets to the 8-9 year mark in one place. That's when I think you're proving sustained success.

For me, next year for Wojo should absolutely be a given, even if we lose out right now. Let him show what he can do with a veteran team of his own guys. If we are on the bubble next year, then it might be time to make that change. My expectation for next year is that we should be able to compete for the top-3 in the league and a protected seed (4-7 range is fine). If we're in that 8-11 range and scrapping around the middle of the Big East again, it might be time to move on.

[vogue65]

Wojo is as good as it gets with this BOT.   Until you change some basic player selection criteria you will have what we have.  I just wonder if some/most of our BE competition have the same academic requirements.  I give Wojo a lot of credit fielding a team as competitive as he has with his restrictions.

[GGGG]

Wojo is as good as it gets with this BOT.   Until you change some basic player selection criteria you will have what we have.  I just wonder if some/most of our BE competition have the same academic requirements.  I give Wojo a lot of credit fielding a team as competitive as he has with his restrictions.

He's no more restricted than Nova and Xavier.

[vogue65]

He's no more restricted than Nova and Xavier.

O.K., how about SJ, The Hall, PC, GT, and are you sure?  Also, on the recruiting trail we compete with everyone else in Div. 1.

[GGGG]

O.K., how about SJ, The Hall, PC, GT, and are you sure?  Also, on the recruiting trail we compete with everyone else in Div. 1.

The only restrictions academically that I know of are Jucos who would find it difficult to graduate in a two year time frame.  I don't know why you think it's all that restrictive.  My guess is that it's on par with pretty much every BE school.

[vogue65]

The only restrictions academically that I know of are Jucos who would find it difficult to graduate in a two year time frame.  I don't know why you think it's all that restrictive.  My guess is that it's on par with pretty much every BE school.

I recall debates here a few years ago about other standards, things like GPA at a higher level and other admission standards.  It just seems to me that athleticism is the main requirement for most other BE teams.

[Its DJOver]

I recall debates here a few years ago about other standards, things like GPA at a higher level and other admission standards.  It just seems to me that athleticism is the main requirement for most other BE teams.

This may have some merit with a few of the old BEast teams, which would explain the debates occuring a couple years ago, but since the realignment, everybody has pretty much been on the same playing field, with the only possible exceptions being the Juco situation

[GGGG]

I recall debates here a few years ago about other standards, things like GPA at a higher level and other admission standards.  It just seems to me that athleticism is the main requirement for most other BE teams.

Why do you think athleticism and academic achievement are mutually exclusive?

Regardless, IMO you are seeing more of a difference in recruiting philosophy more than anything.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I recall debates here a few years ago about other standards, things like GPA at a higher level and other admission standards.  It just seems to me that athleticism is the main requirement for most other BE teams.

They fired those people.

[Loose Cannon]

I can say with 100% certainty that he was offered the Dayton job in 2011 and he turned it down. They got Archie Miller instead. Whether that counts as a "real program" having interest in him is up to interpretation. He's referenced getting other offers but I have no idea to who and if it was a true offer or if he was just in the process. But I would guess that we were the best program to ever offer him a job....which shouldn't be surprising for a 37 year old career assistant. So the narrative that he was waiting for the right offer does seem to hold up. Whether that is the whole story or not...I have no idea.

Can not Debate the Gut.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Dixon is an interesting one. As an assistant he kept the ball rolling.  When he jumped or got pushed, he instantly turned TCU around.

Matt Painter is an interesting one as he and Weber jumped from Purdue assistants to SIU where he took over for Bruce when Illinois came to call. Then, Matt moved back to Purdue after one great year as HC at SIU and turned Purdue around again quickly when Keady was checked out.

Enfield is an interesting study but I suspect money was involved.

[WarriorDad]

Dixon is an interesting one. As an assistant he kept the ball rolling.  When he jumped or got pushed, he instantly turned TCU around.

Matt Painter is an interesting one as he and Weber jumped from Purdue assistants to SIU where he took over for Bruce when Illinois came to call. Then, Matt moved back to Purdue after one great year as HC at SIU and turned Purdue around again quickly when Keady was checked out.

Enfield is an interesting study but I suspect money was involved.

Different conditions for different programs.  Different inherited talent, different schedules, different injury or transfer situations. 

Easy to find coaches that fit the narratives of either side.  Some guys do well in the first few years then plateau, others take some time to get it going and keep rising. Then there are others that are up and down.  An example is Painter, since 2012 had zero NCAA tournament wins in four years, missed the tournament back to back years, but going into last week was flavor of the month.  Not many that are good and stay good from the start.  Tony Bennett had one NCAA berth his first 4 years at UVA, and that came in year 3.  Coach K had no NCAA appearances his first three years at Duke, some wanted him fired.  Al Mcguire had none his first 3 years, but the program was going in the right direction.   In John Wooden's first 13 years, he made the NCAA tournament three times. 

Before someone says these are Wojo comparisons to great coaches, that is not aim.  I do not know if Wojo has it or not, but others that proved to have it have had similar results in their early careers.

[Goose]

WarriorDAd

Forget upper end talent coaches, you are talking decades ago. Not really sure, with exception of VA, what your post has to do with today's game. From my perspective, a rebuild should not take half a decade. To boot, Wojo has every asset available at his finger tips. Who knows, maybe this type of program the BOT wanted all along. Good kids that might surprise the fan base from time to time.

[Floorslapper]

Are they expected to increase year over year until all you have is 12 guys that are first round NBA picks?  How reasonable are you going to be since recruiting is not an exact science?   

Is it also not possible that this roster is more talented than previous rosters, but talent alone doesn't win games. Experience matters.  Give me a senior laden team of 3 star recruits over a freshmen dominated team of 4 star recruits.  The talent may be stronger with the freshmen, but experience is a vital element.

Many in this fanbase expected NIT this year, seems you and others were the ones perhaps not noticing size, youth, inexperience.

Here's what I saw coming into this year:
5th Year Senior with now over 2,000 career points scored.

2 would be sophomores who had very good freshman years and have started nearly every game at MU and are bordering 1,000 points scored as sophomores.

1, Junior, looking to bounce back from a subpar sophomore year, after a promising freshman year.

2, 3-year role player program guys in Sacar and Heldt.

3 athletic freshman joining the fold, one of whom is a specimen and physically ready to compete from Day 1.

4th year head coach, coaching a roster comprised of all of his recruits.

For as much crap as JJJ, Duane, and Luke got on this board, apparently they weren't empty cupboard scrubs Wojo had to deal with - and are missed.

Yet, I felt there was enough talent and experience based on the above to be a 5th place caliber team in Big East and NCAA team.

[Goose]

Floorslapper


A year ago at this time I said that four key players would be sorely missed this season and many, if not most, disagreed. The wait to next year crowd was talking big after 'Nova last year and then making NCAA. Luke was not going to be missed, JJJ was inconsistent and Rowsey can fill in the scoring of KR. Of course they are missed and this year's team is not as good as last year, as many predicted.

I sure hope that everyone that is saying "wait until next year", remember that you set the bar of expectations. I remember the wait until next year crowd very well from this time last season. Hope they are right on Round 2 of the next year campaign.