I place this all on the coaching staff.

[GOO]

Pulling this thread up to show that we're better at this point next year doesn't show any improvement in Wojo's ability to coach.

My take is that next year people will act as if Wojo all of a sudden learned to coach in general and coach defense in particular, if we get that missing piece (a guard who can guard).  Frankly Elliot could be that guy if he can get stronger and put on a little weight.  He seems to have the drive to play D and may make a jump over the summer.  If he does, I suppose you'll be down on Wojo as we'll only be winning because of the better players with more experience. But, adding that one guard is the key, and hopefully we are able to do so. 

You ignore some of the reasons we are not good at defense this year, personal and inexperience are big parts of it. You seem to say that doesn't matter as it's on Wojo as he is the coach.  Yes, it's on Wojo. But, you can't have it both ways:

You seem to say next year one can't evaluate Wojo's coaching if he has the horses... I disagree. Having the horses and experience are some of the most important parts of the equation/coaching.  I've looked at this real rebuild of a culture/team as a process and a big one.  Not a coach trying to just win with whatever players were available - it is harder when you are trying to create a certain environment.  That base has been built.

Do you seriously not credit Wojo for Howard because an assistant came in and he followed?  Or am I missing something?

I look forward to this thread being pulled up next year.  I for one will have no problem changing my tune if we are not solidly in the field next year. If we are, unlike you, I won't say Wojo can't coach and it is only because he has better players and more experienced players.  Who got those players and got them the experience/know how...?

[GOO]

All are certainly welcome to their own opinion.

I think it exciting that we're returning basically our entire team. We'll be fairly experienced next season.  Ed Morrow is going to be a huge boost. If you haven't seen him play, you're going to be delighted when you do. He is a really good basketball player and will give us an interior presence we have so sorely lacked in the Wojo's tenure. I like Rowsey a lot...he is a talented scorer, but the fact that our two best players both play the same position, both are sub 6 feet, and both suck defensively has given this team serious limitiations.  I think that problem will mostly solve itself by subtraction. 

Joey and Bailey are high major players we'll add to the mix.  I think what happens with the open schollie and the PG situation is what will decide if this team is a middle of the pack BE team, or a top 25 team.  I suspect Wojo will be hot after PG grad transfers. I don't think we need to add an elite PG to be good, but just a solid defensive player that can hit open shots and find his teammates would be a huge addition to this team.  There will be several guys that fit that bill that will become available in the next few months.

Thanks for summing up my take better than I would.  Hoping for no major defections.  Add that guard, preferably a point, and it will be an interesting ceiling.  Morrow is the type of player we have not had in a long time. Think he would have helped versus Nova this year?

[Floorslapper]

No one in there right mind expected Marquette to be a top 25 team this year.  Most expected a bubble team, or worse.  Not sure why MU would move on from Wojo when this years team has been exactly what must expected, especially when the future rosters looks very promising.

I felt we should be an NCAA team this year.  A 10-seed caliber team.  Many felt once Wojo got "all his guys," we'd improve off of last season - as it was said countless times here Wojo never would have recruited any of Duane, JJJ, Luke.

Furthermore, to say this year's team is devoid of talent is absurd.  We have a 2,000 point career scorer on this team.  Two sophomores who are approaching the 1,000 point mark.  Freshman contributors.  Sacar and Heldt (experienced/3 years in the program), both playing to their role given by Wojo.

We have a prolific offense.  With just marginally decent defense, we are an NCAA team.  It isn't absurd to think this team should be an NCAA caliber team.

[GGGG]

Why do you think that Wojo wouldn't have recruited Luke?

[GB Warrior]

Why do you think that Wojo wouldn't have recruited Luke?

Luke is the perfect wojo recruit in that he also couldn't play defense

[GGGG]

Luke is the perfect wojo recruit in that he also couldn't play defense

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I felt we should be an NCAA team this year.  A 10-seed caliber team.  Many felt once Wojo got "all his guys," we'd improve off of last season - as it was said countless times here Wojo never would have recruited any of Duane, JJJ, Luke.

Furthermore, to say this year's team is devoid of talent is absurd.  We have a 2,000 point career scorer on this team.  Two sophomores who are approaching the 1,000 point mark.  Freshman contributors.  Sacar and Heldt (experienced/3 years in the program), both playing to their role given by Wojo.

We have a prolific offense.  With just marginally decent defense, we are an NCAA team.  It isn't absurd to think this team should be an NCAA caliber team.

How do you know this was stated multiple times on Scoop? You're a new memeber as of February 2018.   

Regarding the bolded, I agree.  I thought we'd be the NCAAs this year, but I figured we'd be around the bubble (which we are).  I still think we can be in the NCAAs this year.  I think we could, should and are certainly capable of going 4-1 to finish league play, even if we lose our next game. I think that if that happens, we could easily still be a 10 seed, which is theoretically only 3 teams away from the Dayton play-in games, and is by all accounts a team close to the bubble.

[Floorslapper]

Why do you think that Wojo wouldn't have recruited Luke?

Personally, I think Wojo would have recruited Luke.  Some here posted that he would not have..and of course about how empty the cupboard was upon his arrival - and that the early results of his tenure weren't fair to assess as he wasn't dealing with a roster full of his guys.

Personally, I felt a roster of sophomores JJJ, Deonte, Duane, Luke..Junior..Steve Taylor..Seniors Todd Mayo, Juan Anderson, and Derrick Wilson wasn't exactly a scrap heap/empty cupboard of a roster to inherit.

Didn't think entering Wojo's first season that roster would go 13-19, and 4-14 in Big East play.  Granted he kicked Mayo off the team, so that hurt the talent/experience level.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Personally, I felt a roster of sophomores JJJ, Deonte, Duane, Luke..Junior..Steve Taylor..Seniors Todd Mayo, Juan Anderson, and Derrick Wilson wasn't exactly a scrap heap/empty cupboard of a roster to inherit.

Find me a team that missed the NIT, lost 6/7 of it's top minute getters, and only brought it 1 freshman and then made any sort of postseason the next year....I'll wait. Bonus points if you can find one where the 1 returning top minute getter is a Derrick Wilson caliber player.

[GGGG]

Personally, I think Wojo would have recruited Luke.  Some here posted that he would not have..and of course about how empty the cupboard was upon his arrival - and that the early results of his tenure weren't fair to assess as he wasn't dealing with a roster full of his guys.

Personally, I felt a roster of sophomores JJJ, Deonte, Duane, Luke..Junior..Steve Taylor..Seniors Todd Mayo, Juan Anderson, and Derrick Wilson wasn't exactly a scrap heap/empty cupboard of a roster to inherit.

Didn't think entering Wojo's first season that roster would go 13-19, and 4-14 in Big East play.  Granted he kicked Mayo off the team, so that hurt the talent/experience level.

Oh boy.  I forsee Ners going full Ners on us pretty soon...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm actually curious about this whole rebuilds can go faster than four years thing. I know plenty of examples of coaches who started off slow and eventually built winning programs (Wright at Nova, Bennett at UVA, etc). But does anyone have an example of a coach that took over a team that missed the NIT the season before and then built them into a consistent contender in 3 seasons or less? I can think of examples like Wojo where a team made the tournament in 3 years or less, but not as sure about building programs to a point where they are consistently in the tournament every year.....I smell a research project coming on....maybe after work today.

[Floorslapper]

Find me a team that missed the NIT, lost 6/7 of it's top minute getters, and only brought it 1 freshman and then made any sort of postseason the next year....I'll wait.

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Many in our fanbase expected a jump this year, given that the roster was now ALL Wojo's players.  That hasn't happened. In fact, we appear headed for regression.  I'm optimistic for next year  I feel Wojo has improved as a coach.  He still has room for improvement.  Just not sure I see a very high ceiling, which means elite talent will be needed in order to win at a Sweet 16 caliber level.

[nyg]

J5

This is team is exactly what I expected them to be, not very good. They did surprise me with the explosive individual scoring and that kept me interested. Only thing we differ on is, my lack of major optimism for next season. I do not see how they make significant improvements next season. I have watched my share of ball and I do not see high talent pool in the program. There are several nice players, one explosive scorer and role players coming back next year.

With the optimism many have for next year, how many feel MU is a preseason top 25 team in October? I think little to no chance. Again, they met my expectations for this season and believe they will again next year. I think at BEST a bubble team next year.

I agree with your opinion also, but if next year's team is not a lock for the NCAA's at this time next year, then changes will have to be considered.  This year was a rebuilding and the excuses that have been documented are just frustrations over not winning.  Lets see:  we are young, we are inexperienced, the ref conspiracy, Markus gets hit all the time, Theo has the flu, Markus has the flu, heck everyone has the flu, Harry's boot, Harry's really a freshman, Wojo can't coach, Sam's hip, Elliott's hand, Cain's too skinny, Heldt's a stiff, Rowsey only plays hero ball and so on.  This site is like a sports bar and sure everyone can say what they want and thats cool. Sometimes we all agree, sometimes we laugh. 

If and that's a big if, MU lands an experienced guard, then the only expectation is a lock for the NCAA's.  The only poster who I really trust on inter MU recruiting info is Big Daddy, who confirmed Wojo is looking for a top Tier Grad PG, not someone just to take a roster spot. The significant improvements will start with that, then addition of a seasoned, built like a tank PF that actually has basketball skills in Morrow.  You add a Top 50 recruit with size in Joey and a prior Top 60 recruit with size in Bailey.  They are not mid 100 rated recruits, again, not mid 100 rated recruits and again, actually have basketball skills. Thats why the recruiting services do their due deligence and have been pretty accurate over the years.  Now, a Marvin Bagley type is not walking thru the door, but Joey, Bailey, Morrow and a top tier PG will be significant improvements.

The possible starters will be Howard, Sam, Morrow, Theo and the grad transfer.  That leads to a pretty decent bench as opposed to now, with Elliott and Cain having a year under belt and having the two highly rated recruits also.  Yes, the excuses will be Joey's foot ( does any young kid these days actually get over an injury), Bailey not playing for few years, but the one excuse won't be experience/young.  In my opinion, this is a significant improvement over this year's roster.

Now, the other aspect is the other teams in the BE.  This has been brought up before in other threads, but there are a lot of team's that will be suffering some serious losses in their roster, some darn good players who have been a pain in MU's arse.  Seton Hall, Xavier, Nova, Butler, not going to list the players but if you follow, you know who they are on each team.  Now it is those school's turn, just like MU has suffered losses due to transfers/graduation in the past.  This should benefit MU and significantly improve their BE record next year.

I guessed that this year's team would be 7-11 in BE play and I was hoping to be wrong, but it may happen. It is what it is. Sam, Morrow and Howard are more than nice players and from what we heard Joey and Bailey will/should be more than role players. Top 50 recruits, as opposed to mid 100 recruits is a huge difference. 

I really don't care what MU is ranked in the pre season rankings, they might stumble in the pre-season NIT, but we shall see.  But, an at best bubble team as opposed to a lock team, this time a year from now, I don't see it and thats where we differ.  If they under perform, then there are issues and we can look back at this thread see who was correct.  Should be fun.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I'm actually curious about this whole rebuilds can go faster than four years thing. I know plenty of examples of coaches who started off slow and eventually built winning programs (Wright at Nova, Bennett at UVA, etc). But does anyone have an example of a coach that took over a team that missed the NIT the season before and then built them into a consistent contender in 3 seasons or less? I can think of examples like Wojo where a team made the tournament in 3 years or less, but not as sure about building programs to a point where they are consistently in the tournament every year.....I smell a research project coming on....maybe after work today.

Texas Tech?  Beard has done quite will, but 3 of his top 5 players this season were there when he took the job 2 years ago.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Many in our fanbase expected a jump this year, given that the roster was now ALL Wojo's players.  That hasn't happened. In fact, we appear headed for regression.  I'm optimistic for next year  I feel Wojo has improved as a coach.  He still has room for improvement.  Just not sure I see a very high ceiling, which means elite talent will be needed in order to win at a Sweet 16 caliber level.

So.....you don't have one.

And Mayo was gone regardless of who the coach was. It wasn't official until after Wojo got there but he was G-O-N-E

[Its DJOver]

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Many in our fanbase expected a jump this year, given that the roster was now ALL Wojo's players.  That hasn't happened. In fact, we appear headed for regression.  I'm optimistic for next year  I feel Wojo has improved as a coach.  He still has room for improvement.  Just not sure I see a very high ceiling, which means elite talent will be needed in order to win at a Sweet 16 caliber level.

Your two paragraphs contradict themselves.  If players are supposed to improve year to year, and we only have three contributors returning, excluding Heldt, then it makes sense for us to regress slightly.  I would say that Markus, Sam and Rowsey have all improved from last year to this year.  If everybody comes back and improves, then we are set up for success next year.

[skianth16]

My take is that next year people will act as if Wojo all of a sudden learned to coach in general and coach defense in particular, if we get that missing piece (a guard who can guard).  Frankly Elliot could be that guy if he can get stronger and put on a little weight.  He seems to have the drive to play D and may make a jump over the summer.  If he does, I suppose you'll be down on Wojo as we'll only be winning because of the better players with more experience. But, adding that one guard is the key, and hopefully we are able to do so. 

You ignore some of the reasons we are not good at defense this year, personal and inexperience are big parts of it. You seem to say that doesn't matter as it's on Wojo as he is the coach.  Yes, it's on Wojo. But, you can't have it both ways:

You seem to say next year one can't evaluate Wojo's coaching if he has the horses... I disagree. Having the horses and experience are some of the most important parts of the equation/coaching.  I've looked at this real rebuild of a culture/team as a process and a big one.  Not a coach trying to just win with whatever players were available - it is harder when you are trying to create a certain environment.  That base has been built.

Do you seriously not credit Wojo for Howard because an assistant came in and he followed?  Or am I missing something?

I look forward to this thread being pulled up next year.  I for one will have no problem changing my tune if we are not solidly in the field next year. If we are, unlike you, I won't say Wojo can't coach and it is only because he has better players and more experienced players.  Who got those players and got them the experience/know how...?

I apparently have a higher (less realistic?) bar for Wojo and for the MU program most years than others. I won't be down on Wojo if we make the tournament with a 7-10 seed. I won't go out of my way to praise him for simply meeting my expectations either. Maybe my expectations are too high, but with our roster next year, I expect to have a top 25 team competing for a good seed come March. I don't think that's overly optimistic.

As far as getting recruits, do you think we get Markus without Stan? Markus committed to ASU over Marquette at first. Wojo had given his pitch, and Markus didn't bite. When Stan left ASU for Marquette, so did Markus. I wonder what changed at MU...? I think you have to give Stan more credit for landing Markus than Wojo.

My take on Wojo is similar to many people's take on Willard. Get a few good dudes, win some ballgames, but the jury could be out in terms of overall ability.

[Its DJOver]

My take on Wojo is similar to many people's take on Willard. Get a few good dudes, win some ballgames, but the jury could be out in terms of overall ability.

Wojo has shown to be a more consistent recruiter, not just getting one great class and riding them, this is a similar problem that Crean had at MU.  Wojo has also had a smaller sample size than Willard.  Looking at where the programs are heading, I don't think too many people outside of NJ would take Willard over Wojo.

[GGGG]

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Here we go again.  You are seriously coming back here making these same arguments again under a new name?  You really think Todd-f*cking-Mayo should have been retained?

[Bad_Reporter]

I'm actually curious about this whole rebuilds can go faster than four years thing. I know plenty of examples of coaches who started off slow and eventually built winning programs (Wright at Nova, Bennett at UVA, etc). But does anyone have an example of a coach that took over a team that missed the NIT the season before and then built them into a consistent contender in 3 seasons or less? I can think of examples like Wojo where a team made the tournament in 3 years or less, but not as sure about building programs to a point where they are consistently in the tournament every year.....I smell a research project coming on....maybe after work today.

Shaka-Texas?

Edit, you said year 3, this will be 4 I believe. Never mind

[jesmu84]

Traci Carter was a loss.  Coaching staff did try like hell to convince him to stay.  May not have played a ton this year, but could have been red shirted and been the PG we sorely will need next year.  Even if Traci were not redshirted, having him eligible this season, would have given Wojo a CLEAR change up at PG position - one who was a tenacious defender, and was in total pass first mode.

Traci will be a star at LaSalle.  Could have been really good here.  He was Tony Miller 2.0 in my opinion.

Same confidence level as you had about Dawson?

[jesmu84]

We are a performance based society whether millenials like or not. Either you can do the job or not. If not, there will be someone who can and you'll be replaced. Just that simple and not hard to understand. Attaboy awards don't cut it, aina?

Lol.

I think this is the new Godwin's law

[jesmu84]

So rosters aren't expected to improve from year to year?  We don't expect kids to take a leap from their freshman to sophomore years (Top 50 kids too, btw)?  Mayo wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Deonte starting ahead of Cohen wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  Duane starting at PG, with Carlino at SG wouldn't have helped that team win more games?  We'll never know...and its only relevance to present day is this:

Many in our fanbase expected a jump this year, given that the roster was now ALL Wojo's players.  That hasn't happened. In fact, we appear headed for regression.  I'm optimistic for next year  I feel Wojo has improved as a coach.  He still has room for improvement.  Just not sure I see a very high ceiling, which means elite talent will be needed in order to win at a Sweet 16 caliber level.

Way to totally ignore his request. And move the goalposts

[jesmu84]

I'm actually curious about this whole rebuilds can go faster than four years thing. I know plenty of examples of coaches who started off slow and eventually built winning programs (Wright at Nova, Bennett at UVA, etc). But does anyone have an example of a coach that took over a team that missed the NIT the season before and then built them into a consistent contender in 3 seasons or less? I can think of examples like Wojo where a team made the tournament in 3 years or less, but not as sure about building programs to a point where they are consistently in the tournament every year.....I smell a research project coming on....maybe after work today.

I asked similar questions.

Crickets.

[Herman Cain]

Legit question:

What was Wojo doing sitting next to Coach K from 1999-2014? You would expect some coaching smarts to have permeated his body, at least by osmosis, even if Steve spent half the time sleeping on the job. Maybe some guys are "lifer" assistant coaches and just don't have all the pieces necessary to be a successful head coach on this level. Completely mind boggling that Wojo, as a player, was defensive player of the year.

Please translate into Sheboyganese:)