Froling's role in conference play

[D'Lo Brown]

Right now, there is too much thinking and not reacting in the flow of things.  That?s from the rust.  He will be fine.  Though, he has limits as he is not overly quick and his game is below the rim.  But, he does have that size and recognizable skills.  Hard to break into the rotation in mid-season.

I don?t know, from my perspective, whenever he seems to get the ball on offense, he is putting up some kind of shot. It may take a few seconds to develop and he may seem not interested for a second or two, but it eventually comes. Deonte was very much like that, especially in his freshman year and it hindered his ability to stay on the court. IMO, Froling is at that level as of today. I don?t think he recognizes the fact that some of these shots are totally out of the flow of the offense. I think by default, the ?flow of the offense? is neutralized when you make yourself a dead end (shoot or turnover once he gets it).

I?d prefer to see some pick and roll options like how they do with Heldt, get him some of those really easy looks. And get him to buy into passing. The ingredients are all there at this very moment for him to outplay Heldt regularly, it?s just that his decisions have been quite bad.

Further, the numbers say he is rebounding well, which is great. However, I?ve witnessed a few occasions in the game where he gets too focused on the ball movement and completely forgets his responsibility - like literally, stops guarding. if you look back, a proportion of those wide open broken plays have come from his man. That could be rather easy to clean up but I haven?t seen evidence of it just yet; he?s done it a few times in each game I?ve watched. I think he needs to sometimes remind himself of how big he is and how much of a force he could be if he spent more time worrying about positioning and banging down low. He?s not going to save every play himself.

He has some dribbling ability but thus far, just tantalizing us with what could be. I remember one play that was blown dead, and he did a nice spin move and laid it in... I was just thinking to myself, wow, that would be cool to see happen. But as of now a lot of these plays where he tries to force it no matter what, I?d rather see him with his eyes open for a good pass instead of dribbling a ton and getting a bad result anyway.

I think he really needs to learn some restraint and focus on helping the team as a whole rather than taking the game over. We all want to see it, I think it will happen some day and Scoop will rejoice, but it?s not going to be this year. Almost all of us are rooting for him and enjoy seeing him in the game.

Also: meant to say, and not sure that I?ve seen it mentioned. I think the pressure of being the mid season guy that could potentially save the day, having that on your mind for a long period of time, and then not seeing it play out over the first few games, that might be bringing him down a bit. He is not Luke Fischer (this is a completely different situation of course, compared to then) and I suspect he was being pumped up to be an impact player that drastically changes the team (as Luke did at the time). We all have observed him trying to take the game over while he is in and I think he would be better served coming to terms with that not being the best for the team right now.

[Newsdreams]

Comparing freshmen to Harry is apples and oranges. Harry has been playing with high level D1 basketball players for the last 2 years. He's had time to adjust to the speed and strength of college players. The freshmen have only been doing this since August. Not the same.

Most here are forgetting that he played with a foot injury at SMU and was no cleared for practice until June (boot fraternity). That time was used for strength development and losing like 20-25 lbs. https://twitter.com/andygold24/status/846836079047028736

[skianth16]

You were saying the same crap after 2 games.  Harry has attempted all of 26 FG attempts this season.  He hasn't been good, but clearly the coach sees something in him.  That should be enough for you to give him a bit more rope.

If you could kindly point out where I've been wrong, I'd be happy to change my tune.

[UNC Eagle]

I don?t know, from my perspective, whenever he seems to get the ball on offense, he is putting up some kind of shot. It may take a few seconds to develop and he may seem not interested for a second or two, but it eventually comes. Deonte was very much like that, especially in his freshman year and it hindered his ability to stay on the court. IMO, Froling is at that level as of today. I don?t think he recognizes the fact that some of these shots are totally out of the flow of the offense. I think by default, the ?flow of the offense? is neutralized when you make yourself a dead end (shoot or turnover once he gets it).

I?d prefer to see some pick and roll options like how they do with Heldt, get him some of those really easy looks. And get him to buy into passing. The ingredients are all there at this very moment for him to outplay Heldt regularly, it?s just that his decisions have been quite bad.

Further, the numbers say he is rebounding well, which is great. However, I?ve witnessed a few occasions in the game where he gets too focused on the ball movement and completely forgets his responsibility - like literally, stops guarding. if you look back, a proportion of those wide open broken plays have come from his man. That could be rather easy to clean up but I haven?t seen evidence of it just yet; he?s done it a few times in each game I?ve watched. I think he needs to sometimes remind himself of how big he is and how much of a force he could be if he spent more time worrying about positioning and banging down low. He?s not going to save every play himself.

He has some dribbling ability but thus far, just tantalizing us with what could be. I remember one play that was blown dead, and he did a nice spin move and laid it in... I was just thinking to myself, wow, that would be cool to see happen. But as of now a lot of these plays where he tries to force it no matter what, I?d rather see him with his eyes open for a good pass instead of dribbling a ton and getting a bad result anyway.

I think he really needs to learn some restraint and focus on helping the team as a whole rather than taking the game over. We all want to see it, I think it will happen some day and Scoop will rejoice, but it?s not going to be this year. Almost all of us are rooting for him and enjoy seeing him in the game.

Also: meant to say, and not sure that I?ve seen it mentioned. I think the pressure of being the mid season guy that could potentially save the day, having that on your mind for a long period of time, and then not seeing it play out over the first few games, that might be bringing him down a bit. He is not Luke Fischer (this is a completely different situation of course, compared to then) and I suspect he was being pumped up to be an impact player that drastically changes the team (as Luke did at the time). We all have observed him trying to take the game over while he is in and I think he would be better served coming to terms with that not being the best for the team right now.

Excellent Point

[MU82]

7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do.

Frank Kaminsky averaged 3.1 points and 1.4 rebounds in the first 7 games OF HIS SOPHOMORE SEASON. He already had played 35 games as a freshman, and then also had spent a summer working out with his teammates. And yet he still bit the big one.

After those 7 games, you understood what about Kaminsky? That he would be the National Player of the Year just 2 years later?

After Jimmy Butler's first 7 games, you understood what? He would become an NBA All-Star?

After Vander Blue's first 7 games, you understood what? That he would be our MVP as a junior?

I could give hundreds of examples of how ridiculous your statement was.

Yes, bud, in a "career" filled with ridiculous Scoop posts, this might have been your most ridiculous of all.

Congrats!

[skianth16]

Frank Kaminsky averaged 3.1 points and 1.4 rebounds in the first 7 games OF HIS SOPHOMORE SEASON. He already had played 35 games as a freshman, and then also had spent a summer working out with his teammates. And yet he still bit the big one.

After those 7 games, you understood what about Kaminsky? That he would be the National Player of the Year just 2 years later?

After Jimmy Butler's first 7 games, you understood what? He would become an NBA All-Star?

After Vander Blue's first 7 games, you understood what? That he would be our MVP as a junior?

I could give hundreds of examples of how ridiculous your statement was.

Yes, bud, in a "career" filled with ridiculous Scoop posts, this might have been your most ridiculous of all.

Congrats!

Those are great anecdotes, but they're just that. I'm guessing the majority of guys shooting under 50% from the FT line midway through their sophomore year didn't turn out to be good shooters by their senior year. I have a feeling I could find a pretty long list of examples if I spent the time looking. Same thing with 3P%. He's shooting under 25% in his career so far, but people here still think he's an outside threat. Again, I think at this point, we can see that's not his game.

Harry has the ability to improve over the next few years, and given the competition he'll have in practice, I assume he will. But I think we've seen what Harry's game is for this year, and it's not what many scoopers thought it would be. I hope I'm wrong and that he turns out to be the player this board thinks he is. I'm just not holding my breath.

[MU82]

Those are great anecdotes, but they're just that. I'm guessing the majority of guys shooting under 50% from the FT line midway through their sophomore year didn't turn out to be good shooters by their senior year. I have a feeling I could find a pretty long list of examples if I spent the time looking. Same thing with 3P%. He's shooting under 25% in his career so far, but people here still think he's an outside threat. Again, I think at this point, we can see that's not his game.

Harry has the ability to improve over the next few years, and given the competition he'll have in practice, I assume he will. But I think we've seen what Harry's game is for this year, and it's not what many scoopers thought it would be. I hope I'm wrong and that he turns out to be the player this board thinks he is. I'm just not holding my breath.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID.

Unequivocally, the first 7 games tells you everything you need to know about a guy's future.

Ipso fatso, that was a Kaminsky imitator who won National Player of the Year.

Own being wrong. It happens to all of us (except Smuggles and chicos).

[skianth16]

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID.

Unequivocally, the first 7 games tells you everything you need to know about a guy's future.

Ipso fatso, that was a Kaminsky imitator who won National Player of the Year.

Own being wrong. It happens to all of us (except Smuggles and chicos).

So, A, chill out bruh. No need for the all caps. Unless you're Harry's brother, there's really no reason to take this so personally. B, if you look at literally everything I've said about Harry it's about his role on this year's team and what he offers now. My 7 games comment was meant for this season, and that's the context of this whole thread. C, I haven't been wrong about Harry, so there's nothing to own.

Maybe try closing the ol laptop and calming down a bit for the night. Maybe you'll be more rational in the morning.

[MU82]

So, A, chill out bruh. No need for the all caps. Unless you're Harry's brother, there's really no reason to take this so personally. B, if you look at literally everything I've said about Harry it's about his role on this year's team and what he offers now. My 7 games comment was meant for this season, and that's the context of this whole thread. C, I haven't been wrong about Harry, so there's nothing to own.

Maybe try closing the ol laptop and calming down a bit for the night. Maybe you'll be more rational in the morning.

Nicely shifted goalposts!

I'm the most chill guy 'round these parts. I just thought you were having trouble comprehending your own words, so I wanted to add a little emphasis.

Given this latest post, I was right!

[skianth16]

Nicely shifted goalposts!

I'm the most chill guy 'round these parts. I just thought you were having trouble comprehending your own words, so I wanted to add a little emphasis.

Given this latest post, I was right!

You do know how to read thread titles, right? This is all about where he fits on this year's team in Big East play. Goalposts have been firmly planted since I started this thread a few weeks back.

[MU82]

You do know how to read thread titles, right? This is all about where he fits on this year's team in Big East play. Goalposts have been firmly planted since I started this thread a few weeks back.

Enjoy rooting for one of our players to suck so you can be right (in your mind).

[TheyWereCones]

It's way too early to be placing so much judgement on Harry.  He hardly had a chance to warm up with the cupcakes and was thrown right into the BE after sitting a season.  By then, he's trying to fit into a rotation that was getting more and more established.  Yes, his shooting has been poor so far, and I'm as frustrated as everyone else, but give the guy a chance.  Already many examples given about guys who turn it around.  I'd add Jajaun Johnson...I cringed every time he shot for his first two years.  By junior season, he was a legitimate deep threat.  Obviously hoping Harry turns it on much faster, but the point is it can happen and no one knows if/when it will.

I think the eye test says he's been solid overall and has plenty of upside.  You can see that he's got some court vision and can be a really good passer.  He can rebound, and I see potential in his post up offense.  Hopefully he starts knocking down shots soon too.  I think in time he'll trend towards more minutes, not fade away.

For the rest of this season, I can see games where he gets 8 to 12 minutes, and others where he gets 20 to 25.  It's been mentioned before, but Wojo is doing a great job of giving more minutes to the guys who are having a good game.  Sometimes that's going to be Heldt.  Other times John, and others Froling.  Good problem to have when if one guy is off, another can step up (see Markus & Rowsey, or Sacar & Greg).

As it stands, we're playing pretty good team ball without much from him right now, so that's a great place to be.  Any contributions from him are just gravy.

[THRILLHO]

Now that we've seen Froling in a couple of games, I'm still a bit confused about how Wojo wants to use him. I like the idea of having 2 bigs on the floor at the same time, and there were moments where that seemed to work well last night, but it doesn't seem to fit our offense very well. I like Harry's confidence, but I haven't been too impressed with his shooting or his defense yet. He also made some really bad passes last night, which might just be acclimation to game speed, but I fear that he may be trying to do too much.

Personally, I'd like to see him down low more often, given that he's our biggest guy, to help grab rebounds and keep guys out of the paint. That just doesn't seem to be his game, though. We already have a lot of talent on the perimeter,so I'm not sure we need help out there, plus his shooting isn't exactly impressive so far. Having a big body and 5 extra fouls down low seems like a better plan to me now that we're on to conference play.

I think you're mixing up offense and defense here:

Having a big body and 5 extra fouls down low

He'll spend time on the perimeter on offense because he apparently has that in his game (though I agree it's MIA so far). But he's not hanging around the perimeter trying to shoot 3's on defense so I don't understand your either/or framing.

He is undeniably useful for the 5 extra fouls, and that he allows us to potentially play faster if we need to while still giving big men plenty of rest. I don't know if it's significant or causal (or correct) but a quick check of our games before and after he started shows we're playing a bit faster.

I think the core of your question is legitimate: Should he keep shooting 3's? And I think everyone has answered most of the questions. If Wojo didn't think he had that shot he'd pull him for taking it! If he keeps that percentage the rest of the year his man will sag off him like they do for Heldt and it will hurt us on offense if he spends time on the perimeter, but honestly he's so far down the scouting report now that it probably still does draw his guy out if he's shooting it with confidence.

[skianth16]

I think you're mixing up offense and defense here:
He'll spend time on the perimeter on offense because he apparently has that in his game (though I agree it's MIA so far). But he's not hanging around the perimeter trying to shoot 3's on defense so I don't understand your either/or framing.

Nah, no confusion there. Just talking about both in the same paragraph. TL;DR version - His offense isn't what will earn him minutes, but his impact on defense can.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

How was Joliet, kin?  Let you out early for bad behavior?  Still on the ankle monitor?

My password hadn?t been working for a long time but I tried again after this most recent upgrade and it worked. I?ve been CreanLover, which I explained in a post only to later have people accuse me of hiding my identity...because I?m all about big secrets on college basketball message boards!

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

If you could kindly point out where I've been wrong, I'd be happy to change my tune.

All I am saying is that you've been constantly harping on the kid.  I think we all agree that he hasn't been great so far, but we also all recognize that this is effectively his freshman season, and he sat out half the year.  He's still rusty.   

The kid has a ton of talent and brings a dynamic this team does not have.  Wojo has said he is supremely talented.  We know he can shoot it, even though the results haven't been there.

All I am saying is give the kid a little more time before you write him off.  He's attempted 26 shots for christ sake.  We haven't seen nearly enough of him to draw on real conclusions. 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Those are great anecdotes, but they're just that. I'm guessing the majority of guys shooting under 50% from the FT line midway through their sophomore year didn't turn out to be good shooters by their senior year. I have a feeling I could find a pretty long list of examples if I spent the time looking. Same thing with 3P%. He's shooting under 25% in his career so far, but people here still think he's an outside threat. Again, I think at this point, we can see that's not his game.

OMG. He has 14 career FT attempts.  What about small sample sizes do you not understand?

[skianth16]

OMG. He has 14 career FT attempts.  What about small sample sizes do you not understand?

I'm going on what's available, that's all we can use to assess his play at this point. What makes you think the things he's done so far in his career are not indicative of who he is as a player right now? If you've had a chance to see him in practice and know something I don't, then that's fair. But for now, looking at all 17 games seems like a pretty logical way to understand what Harry is good and not so good at. I'd say picking apart a one or two game stretch could be a small sample size argument, but when we're looking at his whole career, there has been some consistency that is worth noting.

And of course Wojo will have good things to say about the guy; that's what coaches do. I don't think you'll catch many press conferences with coaches saying they're disappointed that we end up with so-and-so on the team because he's just not that good.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I'm going on what's available, that's all we can use to assess his play at this point. What makes you think the things he's done so far in his career are not indicative of who he is as a player right now? If you've had a chance to see him in practice and know something I don't, then that's fair. But for now, looking at all 17 games seems like a pretty logical way to understand what Harry is good and not so good at. I'd say picking apart a one or two game stretch could be a small sample size argument, but when we're looking at his whole career, there has been some consistency that is worth noting.

And of course Wojo will have good things to say about the guy; that's what coaches do. I don't think you'll catch many press conferences with coaches saying they're disappointed that we end up with so-and-so on the team because he's just not that good.

I've already discussed this with you.  I am a big believer in SSS, because why wouldn't you be?  I am not writing a kid off after 26 FG attempts after he lost a bunch of weight, recovered from a foot surgery, and hadn't played high level basketball in over a year.  Even at SMU, he played limited minutes because they rode their starters incredibly hard last year.  I just don't think Froling has had much game action at all since high school.  He is clearly rusty.

If you make drawing conclusions on players after their first 84 minutes of college action with a new team a habit, your talent evaluation isn't going to be very good.  As I've said multiple times, he brings a dynamic to this team that we don't otherwise have.  He's known to be a very good shooter, clearly has a knack of rebounding the basketball, and can put the ball on the floor unlike our other post options.  I am not campaigning for the kid to start and play 30 MPG, but I also think he deserves a bit more rope.

End of discussion.

[skianth16]

I've already discussed this with you.  I am a big believer in SSS, because why wouldn't you be?  I am not writing a kid off after 26 FG attempts after he lost a bunch of weight, recovered from a foot surgery, and hadn't played high level basketball in over a year.  Even at SMU, he played limited minutes because they rode their starters incredibly hard last year.  I just don't think Froling has had much game action at all since high school.  He is clearly rusty.

If you make drawing conclusions on players after their first 84 minutes of college action with a new team a habit, your talent evaluation isn't going to be very good.  As I've said multiple times, he brings a dynamic to this team that we don't otherwise have.  He's known to be a very good shooter, clearly has a knack of rebounding the basketball, and can put the ball on the floor unlike our other post options.  I am not campaigning for the kid to start and play 30 MPG, but I also think he deserves a bit more rope.

End of discussion.

All I've said in the entirety of my Harry posting is that his outside game has proven to not be what was expected, and his focus should be more on the role of a typical 5. I've never written him off, never said he should be glued to the bench, never said he doesn't deserve to be on the team. He'll improve as the season progress, as all players should, and he'll improve in the coming years. Given what I've seen, I just think his post game deserves more of his attention than his perimeter game.

Is it too early to tell if he'll have success as a junior or senior? Sure, I'll give you that. But I think making an assessment of his current skill set based on what we've seen so far in his career makes a lot more sense than making the assessment based on what coaches say in press conferences or what you read on message boards. A bird in the hand, you know? There's a big difference between saying a guy is (currently) a good shooter (despite not actually shooting well) and saying he's got a nice shot that could develop into a decent perimeter game eventually.

My whole point that I've been making, ad nauseum, is that people continue to say Harry is something that he has never shown himself to be. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't mean there's no role for him or that he's a bad player or that he won't improve. I'll continue to form opinions based on what I see on the floor. If performance changes, so does my opinion. Simple as that.

[jsglow]

Been a lot of back and forth here.  Harry just needs to relax a little and let the game come to him.  He'll be fine and his teammates and coaches have his back.

[cheese ball chaser]

If you look at the raw data, Froling's OR% and DR% are in the 98.1%tile and 99.3%tile of all D1, respectively. His AST% is also in the 83.1%tile. If you look at just the percentages, he's currently out-rebounding and out-assisting both Heldt and John. Like Heldt being the D1 leader in ORTG, the sample size is just too limited right now. I expect these numbers to normalize as the season goes on. And I expect Froling's offense to improve as he gets a better feel for the game.

[Jay Bee]

Harry is shooting 32.7% eFG%. He's not a 32.7% eFG% guy.

Harry 2 most minutes of the 3 centers over the last regular season games of the season.

H2MMotTCOTLRSGotS

[tower912]

It was DePaul, but I think we can all agree that he looked good.  Somebody mentioned conditioning.  Remember he spent a long time in a boot with a stress fracture in his foot.   Perhaps a few minutes at a time is how he should be used.   Three headed center going forward.

[mug644]

One thing I noticed is that he passed up 2 or 3 open looks from three. In earlier games, he was taking (and virtually always missing) those. Not sure if it's a confidence thing or just an effort to keep moving the ball for an even better shot. Either way, it seems to be a change.

That said, I thought he played well and moved decently against Depaul.