MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: skianth16 on December 22, 2017, 01:02:55 PM
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Now that we've seen Froling in a couple of games, I'm still a bit confused about how Wojo wants to use him. I like the idea of having 2 bigs on the floor at the same time, and there were moments where that seemed to work well last night, but it doesn't seem to fit our offense very well. I like Harry's confidence, but I haven't been too impressed with his shooting or his defense yet. He also made some really bad passes last night, which might just be acclimation to game speed, but I fear that he may be trying to do too much.
Personally, I'd like to see him down low more often, given that he's our biggest guy, to help grab rebounds and keep guys out of the paint. That just doesn't seem to be his game, though. We already have a lot of talent on the perimeter,so I'm not sure we need help out there, plus his shooting isn't exactly impressive so far. Having a big body and 5 extra fouls down low seems like a better plan to me now that we're on to conference play.
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He had 7 boards - we haven't had too many games in which someone hit that mark. To the extent that he can fill that role -- especially on the offensive glass -- could be valuable to guys like Sam who have to crash just a bit less and thus be open for a quick open spot-up look.
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Harry will play both the 4 (subbing for Sam) as well as the 5. Like the Harry/Theo combo. Not sure Harry/Matt will be very productive.
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He had 7 defensive rebounds in 21 minutes.
They will,use him both inside and out......like they did last night. Sure he made some bad passes.....he has played very few games at the collegiate level......he also made some great passes....the Big to big looks from Harry to Theo were really good and something he brings to,the table that the other guys don't. Ditto for the pump fake, drive and dish to Sam for the open 3.
He is another playmaker on the court......he will make mistakes like all players do.....they aren't going to just play him down low.....he will.move around.....inside and out....like Henry.
Just be patient......I saw enough to be encouraged.
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He's played a grand total of 24 minutes for MU, it's a little early to say anything definitively.
Markus was scoring 5.0ppg on 44% shooting in his first five games. Rowsey was scoring 4.5ppg on 27% shooting in his first six games.
And to say that grabbing rebounds isn't his thing is a little odd when he has 9 rebounds in those 24 minutes.
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He's played a grand total of 24 minutes for MU, it's a little early to say anything definitively.
Markus was scoring 5.0ppg on 44% shooting in his first five games. Rowsey was scoring 4.5ppg on 27% shooting in his first six games.
And to say that grabbing rebounds isn't his thing is a little odd when he has 9 rebounds in those 24 minutes.
I put more stock in where Harry is now than where Markus was because Harry is older and has been playing at the collegiate level for 2 years now, even if the majority of that time has been just in practices. You're right, it's too early to tell anything for sure, but I'm not sold yet.
As for his rebounding - Getting 7 rebounds is never a bad thing, but the context is less impressive for him. American's 3 leading rebounders are all guards or wings. Their bigs were just not very good. 5 of his 7 boards came in the last 12 minutes of the game when we were already up 30. And as a team, American is in the running for being the worst rebounding team in the country, coming in ranked at 345/351.
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I put more stock in where Harry is now than where Markus was because Harry is older and has been playing at the collegiate level for 2 years now, even if the majority of that time has been just in practices. You're right, it's too early to tell anything for sure, but I'm not sold yet.
As for his rebounding - Getting 7 rebounds is never a bad thing, but the context is less impressive for him. American's 3 leading rebounders are all guards or wings. Their bigs were just not very good. 5 of his 7 boards came in the last 12 minutes of the game when we were already up 30. And as a team, American is in the running for being the worst rebounding team in the country, coming in ranked at 345/351.
Can't be sold, but it's hard not to be optimistic.
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Dude literally has the highest rebound percentage on our team.....
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I am more confident this year that MU will not get beat because of their inability to secure a defensive rebound off of a missed free throw. Heldt on one side, Harry on the other..... much better than last year. Or Theo. I am not as confident he will make his free throws after getting fouled while securing the rebound.
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I am more confident this year that MU will not get beat because of their inability to secure a defensive rebound off of a missed free throw. Heldt on one side, Harry on the other..... much better than last year. Or Theo. I am not as confident he will make his free throws after getting fouled while securing the rebound.
Yup. We are not a good defensive rebounding team but adequate. If we could find a way to turn teams over a little more, defend the two a little better... we will be dancing.
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The negativity directed towards Harry is puzzling. He could be a similar player to Henry (minus some of the ball handling, but perhaps a better defender), before too long. His skill set is so exciting. American was bad and I’m crowning him anything yet, but I’m far more optimistic about him than pessitimic. Could completely change the dynamic of this team.
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It's really tough to answer this. Last night, Harry looked like a legit contributor, but American was terrible and they had no one that could match him physically. Against NIU, he could barely get a sniff in a close game. While that might say something about Wojo trusting Heldt and John, it may also say something about his lack of trust in Harry. In conference play, it's a lot more likely we'll be playing games that are closely contested like NIU than blowouts like American.
There were pros and cons. I like Harry's passing, especially for a big man. He tried to be a bit too flashy at times, but had one really nice no-look assist and clearly has vision that isn't common in a man his size. His shot looked decent, but I don't think he'll be challenging Hauser for 3PFG% supremacy any time soon. My hope right now is for him to give us 10-20 minutes (I know that's a wide range, but I think his role will vary greatly situationally) per night and keep defenses honest. Some rebounding, scoring, and those valuable fouls.
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Dude literally has the highest rebound percentage on our team.....
I apologize in advance, but ...
A lot of his rebs yesterday were easy ones. They really were. American never sent anybody to the offensive boards; they were always racing back on D. Harry's only competition for most of his boards last night was another MU player.
I say this even though I've been one who mocked the "Henry only gets the easy rebounds" meme - do'h!
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Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I just haven't been excited about his game yet. His shot is OK, not bad for a big guy, but not good enough to rely on. His rebounding numbers looks good, but they have been largely uncontested. His defense, to me, isn't much different than Heldt - plays fairly smart but is a little slow. And to top it all off, even though there has been a lot said about his conditioning improving, he still looks like he's sucking wind after 3-4 minutes of floor time.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think the team is going to change much now that we've got Harry eligible. I think Greg and Jamal end up with fewer minutes, and we may have the chance to run some 2 big sets. But that's about it. Having Heldt and Harry or Theo and Harry on the floor together hurts us offensively, and depending on the game could create bad defensive matchups for us too. At this point, I'm much happier with Heldt as the only big on the floor with the "big 3" along with Sacar or GE.
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I apologize in advance, but ...
A lot of his rebs yesterday were easy ones. They really were. American never sent anybody to the offensive boards; they were always racing back on D. Harry's only competition for most of his boards last night was another MU player.
I say this even though I've been one who mocked the "Henry only gets the easy rebounds" meme - do'h!
Just curious, how productive was Matt against American?
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Just curious, how productive was Matt against American?
Reasonable.
And I wasn't making fun of anybody. I just happened to notice how the rebounds kept falling into Froling's hands uncontested and I actually chuckled out loud about "easy rebounds."
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In a very limited sample size stationary bad competition, Frolings defense has been very good.
Frolings role will be "Henry with less usage*
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I know we don't like waiting here on Scoop, but we'll find out a lot more about Froling's role next week. Xavier will be a great test, and GT has Govan and other big bigs.
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I am predicting that Froling wins the Big East 6th man of year award.
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I apologize in advance, but ...
A lot of his rebs yesterday were easy ones. They really were. American never sent anybody to the offensive boards; they were always racing back on D. Harry's only competition for most of his boards last night was another MU player.
I say this even though I've been one who mocked the "Henry only gets the easy rebounds" meme - do'h!
My second favorite fortune sits at my desk: “Luck happens when hard work meets opportunity.” It’s a distant second behind, “your greatest downfall is your stupidity.” Anywho, the point is that those easy rebounds usually don’t happen unless you get in position before the shot. Harry was working hard for rebounds the entire game.
I guess I have a more positive view on Harry than others. I love the fact that he was looking to pass as soon as help came, even if some of the passes were off the mark. He knows what to do and he’s making the right decision...game experience will bring better execution. And the pass to Theo was something we haven’t seen in a while. The 3 pt shot wasn’t as pretty as I had hoped, but he’s obviously hitting them in practice or Wojo wouldn’t be on board. Every 3pt shot he took was an open look, and he’s likely to get plenty of them as defenders focus on our three top shooters. Finally, I love that he drove to the hoop with confidence, and the move leading into the baby hook was great. Yes, it was American, but it was also Harry’s second game. Plenty to be encouraged about.
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My second favorite fortune sits at my desk: “Luck happens when hard work meets opportunity.” It’s a distant second behind, “your greatest downfall is your stupidity.” Anywho, the point is that those easy rebounds usually don’t happen unless you get in position before the shot. Harry was working hard for rebounds the entire game.
I guess I have a more positive view on Harry than others. I love the fact that he was looking to pass as soon as help came, even if some of the passes were off the mark. He knows what to do and he’s making the right decision...game experience will bring better execution. And the pass to Theo was something we haven’t seen in a while. The 3 pt shot wasn’t as pretty as I had hoped, but he’s obviously hitting them in practice or Wojo wouldn’t be on board. Every 3pt shot he took was an open look, and he’s likely to get plenty of them as defenders focus on our three top shooters. Finally, I love that he drove to the hoop with confidence, and the move leading into the baby hook was great. Yes, it was American, but it was also Harry’s second game. Plenty to be encouraged about.
I'm not the least bit discouraged about Harry, I am hoping for big things, and I'm wishing I didn't use the "easy rebounds" line.
Everything I said is true - I watched the game, and I laughed to myself about it. Shoulda kept it to myself.
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Harry 2 starting lineup
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Harry 2 starting lineup
I could see that. At the 4 or the 5? In place of Matt or Sacar?
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I could see that. At the 4 or the 5? In place of Matt or Sacar?
Matthew, but at a minimum I think the mins will be harry
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I could see that. At the 4 or the 5? In place of Matt or Sacar?
Sacars role as a 25 MPG player and starter are pretty much locked in. By far the best defender on this team.
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Sacars role as a 25 MPG player and starter are pretty much locked in. By far the best defender on this team.
I agree with this. Froling starting would mean Rowsey or Howard not starting. I am would bet on Rowsey coming off the bench. The reason to start Froling would be to go big, so it would not make sense to start 2 sub 6' guards with him.
I like the connection between Froling and John. Some of his passes were off and I have been thinking about that. I am assuming that the entire first semester that Froling mostly practice with the second team or scout team. No reason to put him in the lineup with the first team, since he could not play in a game. That means he was generally teamed with John and developed a connection with him. Some of his passes may have been simply off, because he was not as familiar with how the first team players were going to act on the floor. Basically, thinking they might break one way when they decided to do something else. One of his assists was when he stole the pass intended for Hauser and then flip it back to Hauser for the 3. Had he been more use to playing with the first team he may of known the pass was for Hauser in the first place.
Froling strikes me as very agile for his size, but I would not call him quick. He hit his first three and them miss 3 or 4 more. I expect in some games the majority of those threes will fall. He has good size and seems to know where to be on the floor to grab rebounds. I am not sure if he could outfight Delgado for a rebound, but he will have a size advantage on Delgado. I believe his passing will become much more accurate as he adapts to game conditions and playing with the first team.
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I agree with this. Froling starting would mean Rowsey or Howard not starting. I am would bet on Rowsey coming off the bench. The reason to start Froling would be to go big, so it would not make sense to start 2 sub 6' guards with him.
I like the connection between Froling and John. Some of his passes were off and I have been thinking about that. I am assuming that the entire first semester that Froling mostly practice with the second team or scout team. No reason to put him in the lineup with the first team, since he could not play in a game. That means he was generally teamed with John and developed a connection with him. Some of his passes may have been simply off, because he was not as familiar with how the first team players were going to act on the floor. Basically, thinking they might break one way when they decided to do something else. One of his assists was when he stole the pass intended for Hauser and then flip it back to Hauser for the 3. Had he been more use to playing with the first team he may of known the pass was for Hauser in the first place.
Froling strikes me as very agile for his size, but I would not call him quick. He hit his first three and them miss 3 or 4 more. I expect in some games the majority of those threes will fall. He has good size and seems to know where to be on the floor to grab rebounds. I am not sure if he could outfight Delgado for a rebound, but he will have a size advantage on Delgado. I believe his passing will become much more accurate as he adapts to game conditions and playing with the first team.
Those are good points my man.
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I love the depth and options that Harry gives us. We will surprise a lot of teams and Scoopers this season.
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Wow, Harry has been on quite the roller-coaster this past week. Went from savior to non-factor to savior again.
I'm curious to see more of what he has to deliver, but let's not forget the team he mostly feasted on was American, probably the second worst team on the schedule. NIU is decidedly worse than any team we will play from now until November and he couldn't get in that game. I hope he'll help, but anyone penciling him in to start is definitely jumping the gun.
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We will find out in a couple days...
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Those are good points my man.
So, a starting frontcourt of Heldt, Froling and Sam? Not sure I love that. I guess we'll see.
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How about Theo, Harry, and Sam and rotate Matt in for stability after Theo gets a couple of fouls?
I expect the starting lineup to remain the same.
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Sacars role as a 25 MPG player and starter are pretty much locked in. By far the best defender on this team.
I'mma let you finish but.....Elliott's the best defender on this team.
Recently ran the defensive numbers on synergy and was surprised by the results. Anim....33rd percentile in the country for dPPP. Elliott....85th percentile. John....8th percentile :o
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To me, it makes much more sense to start Cain or Elliott, along with Markus, Sam, Sacar and whichever center is chosen, and bring Rowsey off the bench, than it does to start both midgets with an all-big front line. The latter is pretty unathletic.
But all of this talk of starting lineup really doesn't matter much.
Barring foul trouble, Sam, Markus and Rowsey each will play well over 30 minutes most games, probably 35+ in many. It looks like Sacar, arguably our best defender, will be in the high-20s. The centers will get rotated depending upon matchups and how each is doing, both production-wise and foul-wise; and Cain and Elliott will get plenty of playing time as situations dictate.
This season's 9-man roster actually is pretty easy to manage. Next season, if everybody comes back, it will challenge Wojo's ability to apportion playing time and deal with egos - more than anything he's had before. And that's a good thing because it means we have a lot of talent.
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I'mma let you finish but.....Elliott's the best defender on this team.
Recently ran the defensive numbers on synergy and was surprised by the results. Anim....33rd percentile in the country for dPPP. Elliott....85th percentile. John....8th percentile :o
Anim may be far lower because he's always guarding the opponent's best player.
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I'mma let you finish but.....Elliott's the best defender on this team.
Recently ran the defensive numbers on synergy and was surprised by the results. Anim....33rd percentile in the country for dPPP. Elliott....85th percentile. John....8th percentile :o
Fair. Greggy is pretty good out there. IIRC, he leads the team in steals by a wide margin and is 2nd in blocks. Impressive for the amount of time he's actually been on the court.
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Anim may be far lower because he's always guarding the opponent's best player.
That certainly is a factor, but I don't see it accounting for the huge difference between GE and Anim.
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So now we've seen some more of Harry, and we've seen ups and downs from the freshmen and Sacar in conference play. I'm more convinced now than I was before that the addition of Harry isn't going to change this team very much. I know there are still some people that see potential due to his size and "shooting ability" but he's just not turning out to be the player he was touted to be just yet.
I think having Harry in practice will continue to make Theo better, and that will ultimately be his biggest contribution to this team.
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Oops, hit post to soon.
To continue, I think Harry's role is going to be 10-12 minutes a game, grab a few boards, try to not make any dumb fouls, and kick the ball outside whenever he can. The Harry/Theo lineup is interesting, but until they can both consistently contribute without getting into trouble (fouls or TOs), I'm nervous keeping them both on the floor for very long.
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Oops, hit post to soon.
To continue, I think Harry's role is going to be 10-12 minutes a game, grab a few boards, try to not make any dumb fouls, and kick the ball outside whenever he can. The Harry/Theo lineup is interesting, but until they can both consistently contribute without getting into trouble (fouls or TOs), I'm nervous keeping them both on the floor for very long.
Agreed.
Harry's defense is well below Heldt's. Teams have, and especially Providence did, exploited him being totally out of place/mesmerized when he is in the game.
Harry may be a more intriguing offensive option, I suppose, but he's shooting 14% from 3 (SS) and made some dumb plays. He looks like a potential turnover machine at this point if he were in a position to get more useage (eye test, so could be wrong long term).
IMO, I'd much much rather take Matt's consistent play where he doesn't play outside himself. It leaves the offense open for the three elite scorers Marquette already has. A missed low percentage shot or dumb play from a benchwarmer is one less shot for Markus et al.
I actually would prefer that Theo remain the next man up behind Heldt. He has his own imperfections obviously but I think he's still a net positive when he's on the floor... Brings a completely different element.
Harry has clearly got some upside and I have (we all have) high hopes... But IMO right now, he's deserving of about 10 minutes, mostly when Heldt needs a breather or Theo is racking up fouls.
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I think Jay Bilas going a little overboard on how Harry's addition to the roster would bump us to another level was not helpful. We should all temper our expectations for the young man.
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Very hard for kids to play with a team half way thru the season. Froling looks somewhat lost out there at times. Had an open look a few times but did not take it.
That is why it is so important to play early in the season when there are a few cupcakes on the schedule. He will be much improved next year. At least I am hoping for
that. Matt might be at his peak, but Theo justs needs to play more. Theo needs a couple of years to really understand what he can and can not do.
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The fact that he brings an extra 5 fouls isn't insignificant. Couple that with Theo's improving court awareness and now the Center position can defend the rim. I LOVED that hard foul Theo put on that guy in the second half. That's when to take one.
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The fact that he brings an extra 5 fouls isn't insignificant. Couple that with Theo's improving court awareness and now the Center position can defend the rim. I LOVED that hard foul Theo put on that guy in the second half. That's when to take one.
+1 on all points.
Been a while since we've actually been able to have a post player commit a good foul! All the last few years, just wasn't possible with the lack of depth.
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To me it seems like both Theo and Harry are adjusting to the size and speed of this level. They both show some nice skill but also make dumb mistakes. Going to take a while for them to get comfortable out there.
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+1 on all points.
Been a while since we've actually been able to have a post player commit a good foul! All the last few years, just wasn't possible with the lack of depth.
A clean but hard foul is a great tool to use, and I'd love to see more of it from our bigs. I think "using" fouls is overlooked too often in favor of trying not to lose them.
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A clean but hard foul is a great tool to use, and I'd love to see more of it from our bigs. I think "using" fouls is overlooked too often in favor of trying not to lose them.
Those are great fouls compared to the stupid fouls the MU centers get trying to guard on the perimeter!
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15 games to go. Let's revisit this thread in 3-4 weeks. I think he will progress.
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15 games to go. Let's revisit this thread in 3-4 weeks. I think he will progress.
Plus Tax, give 'um some more time.
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I still have hope in Harry but I think his confidence is a bit shook. Playing halfway through the season is tough, but also playing limited minutes makes it more difficult to gain confidence.
It seemed that he passed up a few shots yesterday and both Howard and Rowsey did not pass to him when he was open on the pick and pop. However, it still is early for him to flow with this team. We shall see what unfolds for this year.
However, I do like the idea of 3 completely different big men option. Heldt will always be that guy who gives 1000% effort even if he has a limited skill set. Theo is the enforcer, but he can't be afraid to go up strong after getting blocked (he seemed somewhat rattled yesterday after that first block). Finally, Harry definitely has the best court vision and offensive potential. Let's see how the rotation plays out the next few games.
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Too early to conclude anything.
Gotta give it 4-5 years.
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I've seen some flashes from him. He's had some good passes and a few smooth moves under the bucket. His shot is ugly right now and his defense was never supposed to be good. He's actually a better ball handler than I expected him to be (which were very low expectations).
Harry still seems a little shell shocked being out there. I think he improves as the season goes on. But I will admit that I put my expectations too high at this point.
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Lest we all forget...
This is the same site that wanted Katin (myself included) glued to the bench the whole season after game 6 of last year.
Matt Car3no... dude was the worst transfer ever according to this site after a meer 3 games or so.
-- am I pleased with Harry? Naaah not really, there is a lot to be desired but as someone mentioned earlier, jay bilas really talked him up.
Let's give him a bit more than 4 games.
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Lest we all forget...
This is the same site that wanted Katin (myself included) glued to the bench the whole season after game 6 of last year.
Matt Car3no... dude was the worst transfer ever according to this site after a meer 3 games or so.
-- am I pleased with Harry? Naaah not really, there is a lot to be desired but as someone mentioned earlier, jay bilas really talked him up.
Let's give him a bit more than 4 games.
Trent Lockett, hey?
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I don't think Harry is going to be either a Carlino or a Lockett.
I'm hoping, hoping, but so far underwhelmed.
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His n sacars 3s are absolutely wasted possesions
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I've seen some flashes from him. He's had some good passes and a few smooth moves under the bucket. His shot is ugly right now and his defense was never supposed to be good. He's actually a better ball handler than I expected him to be (which were very low expectations).
Harry still seems a little shell shocked being out there. I think he improves as the season goes on. But I will admit that I put my expectations too high at this point.
I agree with this analysis.
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You have to run somebody out there. Heldt and Theo had foul trouble. Harry is still working his way up to speed, no doubt. IMO, still way to early to give up on him
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I've seen some flashes from him. He's had some good passes and a few smooth moves under the bucket. His shot is ugly right now and his defense was never supposed to be good. He's actually a better ball handler than I expected him to be (which were very low expectations).
Harry still seems a little shell shocked being out there. I think he improves as the season goes on. But I will admit that I put my expectations too high at this point.
I agree with this analysis.
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You have to run somebody out there. Heldt and Theo had foul trouble. Harry is still working his way up to speed, no doubt. IMO, still way to early to give up on him
True, too early to give up on him, but definitely far enough in to rein in the talk of 20+ minutes, 12 and 8, and changing the offense kind of talk.
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You have to run somebody out there. Heldt and Theo had foul trouble. Harry is still working his way up to speed, no doubt. IMO, still way to early to give up on him
Dont disagree but him chucking 3s and thinking he is an offensive weapon needs to be curtailed.
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Akin to al telling dick nixon he wasnt allowed to shoot. Same with sacar on 3s, hes shooting less than 5%. Stop shooting 3s sacar!!!!
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True, too early to give up on him, but definitely far enough in to rein in the talk of 20+ minutes, 12 and 8, and changing the offense kind of talk.
Clearly, we were overly optimistic. However, I stated it elsewhere and I will say it again here. By the end of the year, he will be getting the most minutes among the 3 bigs. And yes, today, he made a shot and then tried to take over. At least he tried to take over. I view that as a positive, though it didn't work. Tonight.
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15 games to go. Let's revisit this thread in 3-4 weeks. I think he will progress.
Not sure we need much more time to see the direction Wojo is going. Heldt and John are playing much better and with more confidence while Harry continues to struggle to find a role. His outside game was clearly over-hyped and needs to be shut down immediately by Wojo. Offense is generally ugly, and his offensive fouls are inexcusable. There's a lot of work left to do with Harry before he sees consistent minutes in the Big East.
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Not sure we need much more time to see the direction Wojo is going. Heldt and John are playing much better and with more confidence while Harry continues to struggle to find a role. His outside game was clearly over-hyped and needs to be shut down immediately by Wojo. Offense is generally ugly, and his offensive fouls are inexcusable. There's a lot of work left to do with Harry before he sees consistent minutes in the Big East.
Well he's gotten 7 or more minutes in every Big East game so depending on your definition of consistent I think you might be off.
Harry's outside game should not be shut down. It's there, we know it is. And a 7 footer who can shoot threes is too valuable to just give up on a few games into his career. His shot looks good, they are smart shots in the flow of the offense. It will click for him eventually and our offense will be even more dangerous.
I'm frustrated with him too, but I'm not willing to write him off 7 games in.
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Well he's gotten 7 or more minutes in every Big East game so depending on your definition of consistent I think you might be off.
Harry's outside game should not be shut down. It's there, we know it is. And a 7 footer who can shoot threes is too valuable to just give up on a few games into his career. His shot looks good, they are smart shots in the flow of the offense. It will click for him eventually and our offense will be even more dangerous.
I'm frustrated with him too, but I'm not willing to write him off 7 games in.
I was thinking more along the lines of 15 minutes when I said consistent. 7 is probably fine for now, but I don't want to see his minutes increase much more until he learns to limit the TOs and the fouls.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about the outside game. Lonzo Ball has an ugly shot, but it goes in. Harry may not have an ugly shot, but he can't make shots. That's a problem. Good form with bad aim doesn't accomplish much. His touch inside is even pretty rough, as evidenced again tonight.
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Agree that he needs to cut down on the turnovers and fouls, however I will say one thing about his fouls. He's one of the only guys on this team who knows how to foul hard. I've seen it at least three times when he has challenged a shooter at the rim he makes sure that there is no chance that it becomes an and one.
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Froling was terrible tonight. I hope he improves but he has shown nothing to justify more than 5 minutes at this point.
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I actually thought Froling played better last night than in previous games. Sure, his shots weren?t falling (one of which led to the Greg put-back slam), but the fact he was taking them was enough to disrupt the defense. You gotta respect a guy who can shoot, and most bigs aren?t used to covering their man on the perimeter. It opens everything inside. Plus, the two-big defensive looks with Harry and Theo are really tough to beat, and he rebounded well. No stupid turnovers or moments of indecision like we?ve seen in other games.
When that shot starts going in...watch out Big East
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I actually thought Froling played better last night than in previous games. Sure, his shots weren?t falling (one of which led to the Greg put-back slam), but the fact he was taking them was enough to disrupt the defense. You gotta respect a guy who can shoot, and most bigs aren?t used to covering their man on the perimeter. It opens everything inside. Plus, the two-big defensive looks with Harry and Theo are really tough to beat, and he rebounded well. No stupid turnovers or moments of indecision like we?ve seen in other games.
When that shot starts going in...watch out Big East
That?s my take from watching him at the BC last night. Now, he is never going to be a sky walker or whatever, but he can be a real contributor.
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Not sure we need much more time to see the direction Wojo is going. Heldt and John are playing much better and with more confidence while Harry continues to struggle to find a role. His outside game was clearly over-hyped and needs to be shut down immediately by Wojo. Offense is generally ugly, and his offensive fouls are inexcusable. There's a lot of work left to do with Harry before he sees consistent minutes in the Big East.
No. If he is open he should fire away. He'll start hitting eventually and even if he doesn't shoot it particularly well, the mere threat that he will shoot it draws a big guy away from the rim.
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Come on guys. He lost a whole year by transferring. Essentially this is his second semester freshman year and he is being baptized by fire in conference play. He reminds me of Heldt his freshman year but with just a tad better skills. He may lose some playing time to Morrow, and/or Joey at the 4, and see him as the 3rd option at the 5 behind Theo and Heldt next season. He seems to be a little more confidant, but is still reluctant to shoot.
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Well, he has played in seven games and so far:
8 for 26 field goal 30%
1 for 11 threes .091%
He is getting 12 minutes per game and he does have good form on his face up shot, but just not going in. Maybe like the analysts say, he gets fouled and sees a free throw go in or actually hits a jumper, then maybe the turnaround starts. Sure Wojo has given him green light, but for how long.
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Looking at the reaction Howard had to one of his missed threes (telling him to keep shooting) tells me the team has confidence his shot will come. I can certainly agree he is essentially a freshman. I'll give him a lot more time to progress. I like the way the floor will have to spread to cover him, and will give a lot of lanes for easy layups if his shot comes around.
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He reminds me if Vander freshman year. All the right moves to get to the hole just can?t finish. When he learns that, watch out.
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I was thinking more along the lines of 15 minutes when I said consistent. 7 is probably fine for now, but I don't want to see his minutes increase much more until he learns to limit the TOs and the fouls.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about the outside game. Lonzo Ball has an ugly shot, but it goes in. Harry may not have an ugly shot, but he can't make shots. That's a problem. Good form with bad aim doesn't accomplish much. His touch inside is even pretty rough, as evidenced again tonight.
Lonzo Ball is shooting 35% from the field this season so you might want to use a different comparison.
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Froling has been a massive addition. When he arrived we turned into a different team. He is still getting his feet wet a little and getting comfortable in his role. I?m fine with all his decision making. He?s clearly a ball player.
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Not sure we need much more time to see the direction Wojo is going.
Two weeks ago, when Froling played very well in 20 minutes against Xavier and Heldt spent long stretches on the bench, many Scoopers (including me) said it looked like Wojo was going a different direction.
But here's the deal: What Wojo has done consistently during his time at MU is give everybody a chance in a game and then ride the hot hand. I believe that is what he will continue to do with the center position, and it makes the most sense to manage the position that way.
If Heldt is playing the best, he'll get the most minutes. If Froling hits a few shots and generally outplays Heldt, he'll get more minutes. Same with Theo, although it looks like Theo and Froling can play well together for short stretches, too. And Sam has proven he can be a 5 against certain teams, too - indeed, against smaller, quicker teams, Sam is our best 5. Obviously, fouls will dictate PT at the position, as well.
Here are the 3 centers' minutes in the last 6 games (starting with the American game, Harry's 2nd after becoming eligible):
American - Harry 21, Theo 18, Matt 14
Xavier - Harry 20, Matt 13, Theo 9
Georgetown - Matt 29, Harry 9, Theo 9
Providence - Matt 21, Theo 15, Harry 11
Villanova - Matt 14, Harry 14, Theo 9
Seton Hall - Matt 23, Theo 17, Harry 8
TOTALS - Matt 114, Harry 83, Theo 77.
Matt played the most minutes 3x, Harry played the most 2x, and they played the same number once. Theo played the second-most minutes 3x and tied for second-most once - and those are the 4 games we won during the span, coincidentally or not.
Bottom line: Not sure how anybody can conclude anything about the direction Wojo is going with the center position from the above information.
Wojo showed last year that he's not too worried about hurting somebody's feelings. He benched Luke, a senior who had been productive since their first year on campus together. But when Matt played like a deer in headlights against S Carolina in the NCAA game, Wojo bolted Matt's butt to the bench and turned to Luke again. He's a coach; he'll do what it takes to win.
IMHO, Wojo's feel for playing time and lineup combos has been one of his strengths since his second season. (And the rest of his game is coming on.) I am very confident Wojo will make the right decisions here, and I'm glad he has this many viable options - including Sam at 5 for stretches when necessary.
I personally believe that we truly will be a very good team once Heldt is playing fewer minutes; that will mean we have better options at the position.
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But here's the deal: What Wojo has done consistently during his time at MU is give everybody a chance in a game and then ride the hot hand. I believe that is what he will continue to do with the center position, and it makes the most sense to manage the position that way.
I feel like this is especially the case this year and he does this with Jamal/Sacar/Greg as well and the last couple games we've seen it even slightly with Markus and Rowsey.
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Froling has been a massive addition. When he arrived we turned into a different team. He is still getting his feet wet a little and getting comfortable in his role. I?m fine with all his decision making. He?s clearly a ball player.
How was Joliet, kin? Let you out early for bad behavior? Still on the ankle monitor?
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Seams completely awful. I meen, gettin? to da hole and knot finishin?, hey?
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Lonzo Ball is shooting 35% from the field this season so you might want to use a different comparison.
I was thinking more of his college game where he shot 55% from the floor and 41% from three.
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I'm not too impressed by Froling's play thus far, except for the fact that he is taking shots within the flow of the game (excluding the one shot last night after he had made a bucket). And I choose to accept the support that Wojo and the team (as evidenced by Markus' encouragement to keep shooting) has for Froling's play. I'll hold on to the belief that his shot will come around.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)
It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)
It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.
Greg started the season 1-11 on threes. Jamal started 3-12. They are up to 33% and 43%, respectively. Sometimes it just takes some time to get your shot back in game situations. If he goes the whole year without hitting, maybe time to re-evaluate. But I would guess we'll start seeing some go in.
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Come on guys. He lost a whole year by transferring. Essentially this is his second semester freshman year and he is being baptized by fire in conference play. He reminds me of Heldt his freshman year but with just a tad better skills. He may lose some playing time to Morrow, and/or Joey at the 4, and see him as the 3rd option at the 5 behind Theo and Heldt next season. He seems to be a little more confidant, but is still reluctant to shoot.
He lost of year of eligibility, not a year of playing basketball. If players weren't expected to improve without competing in games, then why are redshirts so common? He's been in the gym every day since he got to Marquette, and he had as many opportunities to improve in that time as anyone else on the team. I just don't buy this argument at all.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)
It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.
You're not necessarily wrong as it stands today. Still 13 conference games to go. If he gets his legs and his timing and starts hitting that shot..... we can revisit.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)
It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.
Dude, sample sizes.
Harry hasn't been good, but its pretty obvious that he has talent and Wojo believes in him (and apparently Markus too).
Stop skewering the kid every chance you get.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
No. I think everyone accepts that Harry hasn't lived up to expectations so far. I think just about everyone thought he would be better right out of the gate. We were wrong. That doesn't mean we are willing to right the kid off just yet.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)
It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.
I fall into this group, but IMO your assessment is way off.
First of all, Harry has played in what, 5-6 games? He is still getting his legs under him. I know you think this is stupid, but playing in a game is very different from practice and it takes a while to acclimate and relax and just play.
I believe that the defense has to honor Harry at the three point line, and that this simple fact helps our overall team offense more than having Heldt or John in there who are no threat at all from outside of about 5 feet from the basket. Harry will start to make some shots here and there, but the simple fact that he is willing to shoot it is a net positive for the rest of the offense. It allows bigger driving lanes for the midgets and lessens the likelihood that they get blocked. The more they are able to drive and finish, the more defenders have to give them a little more space on the perimeter, which gives them more room to shoot 3s. And on and on.
Telling him to stop shooting is the worst thing they could do, because it would create the very situation you already think exists with teams laying off of him.
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Dude, sample sizes.
Harry hasn't been good, but its pretty obvious that he has talent and Wojo believes in him (and apparently Markus too).
Stop skewering the kid every chance you get.
7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do. But you're right, I shouldn't be so hard on Harry himself. I find it annoying that posters here have such a weird affinity for a guy who hasn't performed well that I end up bagging on him more than necessary. For those who claim anyone shooting 9% from 3 is an outside threat however, you're all nuts.
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Froling has been a massive addition. When he arrived we turned into a different team. He is still getting his feet wet a little and getting comfortable in his role. I?m fine with all his decision making. He?s clearly a ball player.
I agree with you. Definitely been a positive addition to the team. Just having his size helps. He's got nice vision for a big and he's learning from his mistakes on court. Starting out basically in Big East play with only a game or two under his belt is no easy task. I like what he brings to the table.
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7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do. But you're right, I shouldn't be so hard on Harry himself. I find it annoying that posters here have such a weird affinity for a guy who hasn't performed well that I end up bagging on him more than necessary. For those who claim anyone shooting 9% from 3 is an outside threat however, you're all nuts.
No, 7 games is not enough, that's asinine. How much have Theo, Greg and Jamal improved from what they accomplished in their first 7 games of the season?
He's taken all of 11 threes. That is also not enough for you to be writing him off just yet.
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I believe that the defense has to honor Harry at the three point line, and that this simple fact helps our overall team offense more than having Heldt or John in there who are no threat at all from outside of about 5 feet from the basket. Harry will start to make some shots here and there, but the simple fact that he is willing to shoot it is a net positive for the rest of the offense. It allows bigger driving lanes for the midgets and lessens the likelihood that they get blocked. The more they are able to drive and finish, the more defenders have to give them a little more space on the perimeter, which gives them more room to shoot 3s. And on and on.
Telling him to stop shooting is the worst thing they could do, because it would create the very situation you already think exists with teams laying off of him.
I'll start this by saying I don't want this to come off as me saying I think Harry is a bad basketball player. In general, I think he'll be OK, but his game needs to focus more on the interior and get off the perimeter. That being said, to address a few things you said:
I believe that the defense has to honor Harry at the three point line - Do they? Based on what? He has not shown the ability to hit outside shots yet. I don't think opposing coaches are concerned about him shooting. Should they be worried about Sacar too?
who are no threat at all from outside of about 5 feet from the basket - Theo and Heldt both are both shooting better than Harry right now from the field and from 2. As has been mentioned already this year, Matt is an extremely efficient offensive player and should be given credit for that. Theo is also averaging more ppg than Harry with the same number of minutes.
the simple fact that he is willing to shoot it is a net positive for the rest of the offense - Given our negative rebounding margin and Harry's low 3P% and FG%, odds are in favor of a miss and a rebound going to the other team when he shoots. I don't think this helps us.
It allows bigger driving lanes for the midgets and lessens the likelihood that they get blocked - True in theory, but I haven't seen this play out with Harry in the game. Our guards are excellent on the perimeter but struggle to drive and score consistently. Markus is getting better, but he still gets blocked more than you would expect from a player of his caliber. I just haven't seen the improvement here in the last 7 games. Maybe there's some data to show an improvement on 2P% from our guards recently that could show how this has played out?
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No, 7 games is not enough, that's asinine. How much have Theo, Greg and Jamal improved from what they accomplished in their first 7 games of the season?
He's taken all of 11 threes. That is also not enough for you to be writing him off just yet.
Comparing freshmen to Harry is apples and oranges. Harry has been playing with high level D1 basketball players for the last 2 years. He's had time to adjust to the speed and strength of college players. The freshmen have only been doing this since August. Not the same.
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No, 7 games is not enough, that's asinine. How much have Theo, Greg and Jamal improved from what they accomplished in their first 7 games of the season?
He's taken all of 11 threes. That is also not enough for you to be writing him off just yet.
And its not like he's bricking them. The misses are many but they're close. I think once he relaxes he'll be fine. His stroke looks OK. He definitely shows some ball handling skills that our other bigs lack. He is not up to game speed at all right now. He'll need to be smarter. Yesterday, for example, he gave up a wide open 10 footer to try a kick out pass that had to be threaded through 2 or 3 SHU guys. Needless to say it didn't make it and led to a breakout for SHU. I think he's obviously a big guy and he's got some tools, so there is a good chance he can put it together and be effective. The more minutes he gets, the better he will be. The question is, given our situation, if we can afford to give him those minutes to find his footing.
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It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.
Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)
It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.
I think you have summarized it pretty well. Many times there are kids who are stars in practice but have a hard time translating that into games. I think Harry may be one of those players. Over time I think he will gain the experience necessary to make an important contribution. Remember , You can't teach size and he does have that.
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I think you have summarized it pretty well. Many times there are kids who are stars in practice but have a hard time translating that into games. I think Harry may be one of those players. Over time I think he will gain the experience necessary to make an important contribution. Remember , You can't teach size and he does have that.
Right now, there is too much thinking and not reacting in the flow of things. That?s from the rust. He will be fine. Though, he has limits as he is not overly quick and his game is below the rim. But, he does have that size and recognizable skills. Hard to break into the rotation in mid-season.
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7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do. But you're right, I shouldn't be so hard on Harry himself. I find it annoying that posters here have such a weird affinity for a guy who hasn't performed well that I end up bagging on him more than necessary. For those who claim anyone shooting 9% from 3 is an outside threat however, you're all nuts.
You were saying the same crap after 2 games. Harry has attempted all of 26 FG attempts this season. He hasn't been good, but clearly the coach sees something in him. That should be enough for you to give him a bit more rope.
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7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do.
Scoop Takes...nice
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Right now, there is too much thinking and not reacting in the flow of things. That?s from the rust. He will be fine. Though, he has limits as he is not overly quick and his game is below the rim. But, he does have that size and recognizable skills. Hard to break into the rotation in mid-season.
I don?t know, from my perspective, whenever he seems to get the ball on offense, he is putting up some kind of shot. It may take a few seconds to develop and he may seem not interested for a second or two, but it eventually comes. Deonte was very much like that, especially in his freshman year and it hindered his ability to stay on the court. IMO, Froling is at that level as of today. I don?t think he recognizes the fact that some of these shots are totally out of the flow of the offense. I think by default, the ?flow of the offense? is neutralized when you make yourself a dead end (shoot or turnover once he gets it).
I?d prefer to see some pick and roll options like how they do with Heldt, get him some of those really easy looks. And get him to buy into passing. The ingredients are all there at this very moment for him to outplay Heldt regularly, it?s just that his decisions have been quite bad.
Further, the numbers say he is rebounding well, which is great. However, I?ve witnessed a few occasions in the game where he gets too focused on the ball movement and completely forgets his responsibility - like literally, stops guarding. if you look back, a proportion of those wide open broken plays have come from his man. That could be rather easy to clean up but I haven?t seen evidence of it just yet; he?s done it a few times in each game I?ve watched. I think he needs to sometimes remind himself of how big he is and how much of a force he could be if he spent more time worrying about positioning and banging down low. He?s not going to save every play himself.
He has some dribbling ability but thus far, just tantalizing us with what could be. I remember one play that was blown dead, and he did a nice spin move and laid it in... I was just thinking to myself, wow, that would be cool to see happen. But as of now a lot of these plays where he tries to force it no matter what, I?d rather see him with his eyes open for a good pass instead of dribbling a ton and getting a bad result anyway.
I think he really needs to learn some restraint and focus on helping the team as a whole rather than taking the game over. We all want to see it, I think it will happen some day and Scoop will rejoice, but it?s not going to be this year. Almost all of us are rooting for him and enjoy seeing him in the game.
Also: meant to say, and not sure that I?ve seen it mentioned. I think the pressure of being the mid season guy that could potentially save the day, having that on your mind for a long period of time, and then not seeing it play out over the first few games, that might be bringing him down a bit. He is not Luke Fischer (this is a completely different situation of course, compared to then) and I suspect he was being pumped up to be an impact player that drastically changes the team (as Luke did at the time). We all have observed him trying to take the game over while he is in and I think he would be better served coming to terms with that not being the best for the team right now.
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Comparing freshmen to Harry is apples and oranges. Harry has been playing with high level D1 basketball players for the last 2 years. He's had time to adjust to the speed and strength of college players. The freshmen have only been doing this since August. Not the same.
Most here are forgetting that he played with a foot injury at SMU and was no cleared for practice until June (boot fraternity). That time was used for strength development and losing like 20-25 lbs. https://twitter.com/andygold24/status/846836079047028736
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You were saying the same crap after 2 games. Harry has attempted all of 26 FG attempts this season. He hasn't been good, but clearly the coach sees something in him. That should be enough for you to give him a bit more rope.
If you could kindly point out where I've been wrong, I'd be happy to change my tune.
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I don?t know, from my perspective, whenever he seems to get the ball on offense, he is putting up some kind of shot. It may take a few seconds to develop and he may seem not interested for a second or two, but it eventually comes. Deonte was very much like that, especially in his freshman year and it hindered his ability to stay on the court. IMO, Froling is at that level as of today. I don?t think he recognizes the fact that some of these shots are totally out of the flow of the offense. I think by default, the ?flow of the offense? is neutralized when you make yourself a dead end (shoot or turnover once he gets it).
I?d prefer to see some pick and roll options like how they do with Heldt, get him some of those really easy looks. And get him to buy into passing. The ingredients are all there at this very moment for him to outplay Heldt regularly, it?s just that his decisions have been quite bad.
Further, the numbers say he is rebounding well, which is great. However, I?ve witnessed a few occasions in the game where he gets too focused on the ball movement and completely forgets his responsibility - like literally, stops guarding. if you look back, a proportion of those wide open broken plays have come from his man. That could be rather easy to clean up but I haven?t seen evidence of it just yet; he?s done it a few times in each game I?ve watched. I think he needs to sometimes remind himself of how big he is and how much of a force he could be if he spent more time worrying about positioning and banging down low. He?s not going to save every play himself.
He has some dribbling ability but thus far, just tantalizing us with what could be. I remember one play that was blown dead, and he did a nice spin move and laid it in... I was just thinking to myself, wow, that would be cool to see happen. But as of now a lot of these plays where he tries to force it no matter what, I?d rather see him with his eyes open for a good pass instead of dribbling a ton and getting a bad result anyway.
I think he really needs to learn some restraint and focus on helping the team as a whole rather than taking the game over. We all want to see it, I think it will happen some day and Scoop will rejoice, but it?s not going to be this year. Almost all of us are rooting for him and enjoy seeing him in the game.
Also: meant to say, and not sure that I?ve seen it mentioned. I think the pressure of being the mid season guy that could potentially save the day, having that on your mind for a long period of time, and then not seeing it play out over the first few games, that might be bringing him down a bit. He is not Luke Fischer (this is a completely different situation of course, compared to then) and I suspect he was being pumped up to be an impact player that drastically changes the team (as Luke did at the time). We all have observed him trying to take the game over while he is in and I think he would be better served coming to terms with that not being the best for the team right now.
Excellent Point
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7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do.
Frank Kaminsky averaged 3.1 points and 1.4 rebounds in the first 7 games OF HIS SOPHOMORE SEASON. He already had played 35 games as a freshman, and then also had spent a summer working out with his teammates. And yet he still bit the big one.
After those 7 games, you understood what about Kaminsky? That he would be the National Player of the Year just 2 years later?
After Jimmy Butler's first 7 games, you understood what? He would become an NBA All-Star?
After Vander Blue's first 7 games, you understood what? That he would be our MVP as a junior?
I could give hundreds of examples of how ridiculous your statement was.
Yes, bud, in a "career" filled with ridiculous Scoop posts, this might have been your most ridiculous of all.
Congrats!
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Frank Kaminsky averaged 3.1 points and 1.4 rebounds in the first 7 games OF HIS SOPHOMORE SEASON. He already had played 35 games as a freshman, and then also had spent a summer working out with his teammates. And yet he still bit the big one.
After those 7 games, you understood what about Kaminsky? That he would be the National Player of the Year just 2 years later?
After Jimmy Butler's first 7 games, you understood what? He would become an NBA All-Star?
After Vander Blue's first 7 games, you understood what? That he would be our MVP as a junior?
I could give hundreds of examples of how ridiculous your statement was.
Yes, bud, in a "career" filled with ridiculous Scoop posts, this might have been your most ridiculous of all.
Congrats!
Those are great anecdotes, but they're just that. I'm guessing the majority of guys shooting under 50% from the FT line midway through their sophomore year didn't turn out to be good shooters by their senior year. I have a feeling I could find a pretty long list of examples if I spent the time looking. Same thing with 3P%. He's shooting under 25% in his career so far, but people here still think he's an outside threat. Again, I think at this point, we can see that's not his game.
Harry has the ability to improve over the next few years, and given the competition he'll have in practice, I assume he will. But I think we've seen what Harry's game is for this year, and it's not what many scoopers thought it would be. I hope I'm wrong and that he turns out to be the player this board thinks he is. I'm just not holding my breath.
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Those are great anecdotes, but they're just that. I'm guessing the majority of guys shooting under 50% from the FT line midway through their sophomore year didn't turn out to be good shooters by their senior year. I have a feeling I could find a pretty long list of examples if I spent the time looking. Same thing with 3P%. He's shooting under 25% in his career so far, but people here still think he's an outside threat. Again, I think at this point, we can see that's not his game.
Harry has the ability to improve over the next few years, and given the competition he'll have in practice, I assume he will. But I think we've seen what Harry's game is for this year, and it's not what many scoopers thought it would be. I hope I'm wrong and that he turns out to be the player this board thinks he is. I'm just not holding my breath.
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID.
Unequivocally, the first 7 games tells you everything you need to know about a guy's future.
Ipso fatso, that was a Kaminsky imitator who won National Player of the Year.
Own being wrong. It happens to all of us (except Smuggles and chicos).
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BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID.
Unequivocally, the first 7 games tells you everything you need to know about a guy's future.
Ipso fatso, that was a Kaminsky imitator who won National Player of the Year.
Own being wrong. It happens to all of us (except Smuggles and chicos).
So, A, chill out bruh. No need for the all caps. Unless you're Harry's brother, there's really no reason to take this so personally. B, if you look at literally everything I've said about Harry it's about his role on this year's team and what he offers now. My 7 games comment was meant for this season, and that's the context of this whole thread. C, I haven't been wrong about Harry, so there's nothing to own.
Maybe try closing the ol laptop and calming down a bit for the night. Maybe you'll be more rational in the morning.
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So, A, chill out bruh. No need for the all caps. Unless you're Harry's brother, there's really no reason to take this so personally. B, if you look at literally everything I've said about Harry it's about his role on this year's team and what he offers now. My 7 games comment was meant for this season, and that's the context of this whole thread. C, I haven't been wrong about Harry, so there's nothing to own.
Maybe try closing the ol laptop and calming down a bit for the night. Maybe you'll be more rational in the morning.
Nicely shifted goalposts!
I'm the most chill guy 'round these parts. I just thought you were having trouble comprehending your own words, so I wanted to add a little emphasis.
Given this latest post, I was right!
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Nicely shifted goalposts!
I'm the most chill guy 'round these parts. I just thought you were having trouble comprehending your own words, so I wanted to add a little emphasis.
Given this latest post, I was right!
You do know how to read thread titles, right? This is all about where he fits on this year's team in Big East play. Goalposts have been firmly planted since I started this thread a few weeks back.
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You do know how to read thread titles, right? This is all about where he fits on this year's team in Big East play. Goalposts have been firmly planted since I started this thread a few weeks back.
Enjoy rooting for one of our players to suck so you can be right (in your mind).
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It's way too early to be placing so much judgement on Harry. He hardly had a chance to warm up with the cupcakes and was thrown right into the BE after sitting a season. By then, he's trying to fit into a rotation that was getting more and more established. Yes, his shooting has been poor so far, and I'm as frustrated as everyone else, but give the guy a chance. Already many examples given about guys who turn it around. I'd add Jajaun Johnson...I cringed every time he shot for his first two years. By junior season, he was a legitimate deep threat. Obviously hoping Harry turns it on much faster, but the point is it can happen and no one knows if/when it will.
I think the eye test says he's been solid overall and has plenty of upside. You can see that he's got some court vision and can be a really good passer. He can rebound, and I see potential in his post up offense. Hopefully he starts knocking down shots soon too. I think in time he'll trend towards more minutes, not fade away.
For the rest of this season, I can see games where he gets 8 to 12 minutes, and others where he gets 20 to 25. It's been mentioned before, but Wojo is doing a great job of giving more minutes to the guys who are having a good game. Sometimes that's going to be Heldt. Other times John, and others Froling. Good problem to have when if one guy is off, another can step up (see Markus & Rowsey, or Sacar & Greg).
As it stands, we're playing pretty good team ball without much from him right now, so that's a great place to be. Any contributions from him are just gravy.
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Now that we've seen Froling in a couple of games, I'm still a bit confused about how Wojo wants to use him. I like the idea of having 2 bigs on the floor at the same time, and there were moments where that seemed to work well last night, but it doesn't seem to fit our offense very well. I like Harry's confidence, but I haven't been too impressed with his shooting or his defense yet. He also made some really bad passes last night, which might just be acclimation to game speed, but I fear that he may be trying to do too much.
Personally, I'd like to see him down low more often, given that he's our biggest guy, to help grab rebounds and keep guys out of the paint. That just doesn't seem to be his game, though. We already have a lot of talent on the perimeter,so I'm not sure we need help out there, plus his shooting isn't exactly impressive so far. Having a big body and 5 extra fouls down low seems like a better plan to me now that we're on to conference play.
I think you're mixing up offense and defense here:
Having a big body and 5 extra fouls down low
He'll spend time on the perimeter on offense because he apparently has that in his game (though I agree it's MIA so far). But he's not hanging around the perimeter trying to shoot 3's on defense so I don't understand your either/or framing.
He is undeniably useful for the 5 extra fouls, and that he allows us to potentially play faster if we need to while still giving big men plenty of rest. I don't know if it's significant or causal (or correct) but a quick check of our games before and after he started shows we're playing a bit faster.
I think the core of your question is legitimate: Should he keep shooting 3's? And I think everyone has answered most of the questions. If Wojo didn't think he had that shot he'd pull him for taking it! If he keeps that percentage the rest of the year his man will sag off him like they do for Heldt and it will hurt us on offense if he spends time on the perimeter, but honestly he's so far down the scouting report now that it probably still does draw his guy out if he's shooting it with confidence.
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I think you're mixing up offense and defense here:
He'll spend time on the perimeter on offense because he apparently has that in his game (though I agree it's MIA so far). But he's not hanging around the perimeter trying to shoot 3's on defense so I don't understand your either/or framing.
Nah, no confusion there. Just talking about both in the same paragraph. TL;DR version - His offense isn't what will earn him minutes, but his impact on defense can.
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How was Joliet, kin? Let you out early for bad behavior? Still on the ankle monitor?
My password hadn?t been working for a long time but I tried again after this most recent upgrade and it worked. I?ve been CreanLover, which I explained in a post only to later have people accuse me of hiding my identity...because I?m all about big secrets on college basketball message boards!
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If you could kindly point out where I've been wrong, I'd be happy to change my tune.
All I am saying is that you've been constantly harping on the kid. I think we all agree that he hasn't been great so far, but we also all recognize that this is effectively his freshman season, and he sat out half the year. He's still rusty.
The kid has a ton of talent and brings a dynamic this team does not have. Wojo has said he is supremely talented. We know he can shoot it, even though the results haven't been there.
All I am saying is give the kid a little more time before you write him off. He's attempted 26 shots for christ sake. We haven't seen nearly enough of him to draw on real conclusions.
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Those are great anecdotes, but they're just that. I'm guessing the majority of guys shooting under 50% from the FT line midway through their sophomore year didn't turn out to be good shooters by their senior year. I have a feeling I could find a pretty long list of examples if I spent the time looking. Same thing with 3P%. He's shooting under 25% in his career so far, but people here still think he's an outside threat. Again, I think at this point, we can see that's not his game.
OMG. He has 14 career FT attempts. What about small sample sizes do you not understand?
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OMG. He has 14 career FT attempts. What about small sample sizes do you not understand?
I'm going on what's available, that's all we can use to assess his play at this point. What makes you think the things he's done so far in his career are not indicative of who he is as a player right now? If you've had a chance to see him in practice and know something I don't, then that's fair. But for now, looking at all 17 games seems like a pretty logical way to understand what Harry is good and not so good at. I'd say picking apart a one or two game stretch could be a small sample size argument, but when we're looking at his whole career, there has been some consistency that is worth noting.
And of course Wojo will have good things to say about the guy; that's what coaches do. I don't think you'll catch many press conferences with coaches saying they're disappointed that we end up with so-and-so on the team because he's just not that good.
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I'm going on what's available, that's all we can use to assess his play at this point. What makes you think the things he's done so far in his career are not indicative of who he is as a player right now? If you've had a chance to see him in practice and know something I don't, then that's fair. But for now, looking at all 17 games seems like a pretty logical way to understand what Harry is good and not so good at. I'd say picking apart a one or two game stretch could be a small sample size argument, but when we're looking at his whole career, there has been some consistency that is worth noting.
And of course Wojo will have good things to say about the guy; that's what coaches do. I don't think you'll catch many press conferences with coaches saying they're disappointed that we end up with so-and-so on the team because he's just not that good.
I've already discussed this with you. I am a big believer in SSS, because why wouldn't you be? I am not writing a kid off after 26 FG attempts after he lost a bunch of weight, recovered from a foot surgery, and hadn't played high level basketball in over a year. Even at SMU, he played limited minutes because they rode their starters incredibly hard last year. I just don't think Froling has had much game action at all since high school. He is clearly rusty.
If you make drawing conclusions on players after their first 84 minutes of college action with a new team a habit, your talent evaluation isn't going to be very good. As I've said multiple times, he brings a dynamic to this team that we don't otherwise have. He's known to be a very good shooter, clearly has a knack of rebounding the basketball, and can put the ball on the floor unlike our other post options. I am not campaigning for the kid to start and play 30 MPG, but I also think he deserves a bit more rope.
End of discussion.
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I've already discussed this with you. I am a big believer in SSS, because why wouldn't you be? I am not writing a kid off after 26 FG attempts after he lost a bunch of weight, recovered from a foot surgery, and hadn't played high level basketball in over a year. Even at SMU, he played limited minutes because they rode their starters incredibly hard last year. I just don't think Froling has had much game action at all since high school. He is clearly rusty.
If you make drawing conclusions on players after their first 84 minutes of college action with a new team a habit, your talent evaluation isn't going to be very good. As I've said multiple times, he brings a dynamic to this team that we don't otherwise have. He's known to be a very good shooter, clearly has a knack of rebounding the basketball, and can put the ball on the floor unlike our other post options. I am not campaigning for the kid to start and play 30 MPG, but I also think he deserves a bit more rope.
End of discussion.
All I've said in the entirety of my Harry posting is that his outside game has proven to not be what was expected, and his focus should be more on the role of a typical 5. I've never written him off, never said he should be glued to the bench, never said he doesn't deserve to be on the team. He'll improve as the season progress, as all players should, and he'll improve in the coming years. Given what I've seen, I just think his post game deserves more of his attention than his perimeter game.
Is it too early to tell if he'll have success as a junior or senior? Sure, I'll give you that. But I think making an assessment of his current skill set based on what we've seen so far in his career makes a lot more sense than making the assessment based on what coaches say in press conferences or what you read on message boards. A bird in the hand, you know? There's a big difference between saying a guy is (currently) a good shooter (despite not actually shooting well) and saying he's got a nice shot that could develop into a decent perimeter game eventually.
My whole point that I've been making, ad nauseum, is that people continue to say Harry is something that he has never shown himself to be. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't mean there's no role for him or that he's a bad player or that he won't improve. I'll continue to form opinions based on what I see on the floor. If performance changes, so does my opinion. Simple as that.
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Been a lot of back and forth here. Harry just needs to relax a little and let the game come to him. He'll be fine and his teammates and coaches have his back.
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If you look at the raw data, Froling's OR% and DR% are in the 98.1%tile and 99.3%tile of all D1, respectively. His AST% is also in the 83.1%tile. If you look at just the percentages, he's currently out-rebounding and out-assisting both Heldt and John. Like Heldt being the D1 leader in ORTG, the sample size is just too limited right now. I expect these numbers to normalize as the season goes on. And I expect Froling's offense to improve as he gets a better feel for the game.
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Harry is shooting 32.7% eFG%. He's not a 32.7% eFG% guy.
Harry 2 most minutes of the 3 centers over the last regular season games of the season.
H2MMotTCOTLRSGotS
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It was DePaul, but I think we can all agree that he looked good. Somebody mentioned conditioning. Remember he spent a long time in a boot with a stress fracture in his foot. Perhaps a few minutes at a time is how he should be used. Three headed center going forward.
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One thing I noticed is that he passed up 2 or 3 open looks from three. In earlier games, he was taking (and virtually always missing) those. Not sure if it's a confidence thing or just an effort to keep moving the ball for an even better shot. Either way, it seems to be a change.
That said, I thought he played well and moved decently against Depaul.
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Harry played well against DePaul. When teamed up with Matt or Theo we play big. I like his game. The rust is coming off, the more he plays.
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My thesis going in was that Harry would do well against cupcakes and be challenged by more athletic teams . Seems to be the case. Although, He does have very good Rodman like instincts for rebounds and I don’t think that can be taught. His passing is good too. I think if Harry stays focused on those two things he will make steady progress. I like the three headed center that we have going with the occasional two bigs at a time . Keep expectations low for Harry and he will be fine.
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My thesis going in was that Harry would do well against cupcakes and be challenged by more athletic teams . Seems to be the case. Although, He does have very good Rodman like instincts for rebounds and I don’t think that can be taught. His passing is good too. I think if Harry stays focused on those two things he will make steady progress. I like the three headed center that we have going with the occasional two bigs at a time . Keep expectations low for Harry and he will be fine.
I agree with all of this. He made some nice passes last night, and did well on the boards. Passing up low percentage shots for high percentage shots seems like a good thing to me too. It's nice to be able to play big for stretches now.
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It was DePaul, but I think we can all agree that he looked good. Somebody mentioned conditioning. Remember he spent a long time in a boot with a stress fracture in his foot. Perhaps a few minutes at a time is how he should be used. Three headed center going forward.
Wait, he was seen on campus with a boot???
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Wait, he was seen on campus with a boot???
You got it. He became official MU playa that day.
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Harry's eFG% is brought down entirely by his outside shooting. He's 11-21 from 2-point range, good for 52.4%. No problem there whatsoever. But he's just 1-12 (8.3%) from 3-point land to date, which tanks his overall offensive efficiency.
As others have pointed out, he's been a big contributor in other key areas — leading the team in OR% and DR%, and 2nd in assist rate (only behind Andrew Rowsey). All three stats are significantly higher than Matt Heldt. Turnover rate is also higher than the team average, so there's room for improvement there.
According to KenPom.com, Harry's performance has been good enough for him to earn 33% of the available minutes at the center spot over the past 5 games — tied with Matt.
I expect we'll see more of Harry's post game as he gets more comfortable on the court and in the flow of the offense. Outside shooting is the wild card. For now, I'd say we don't need him taking threes unless he proves he can hit somewhere around 35%.
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Harry's eFG% is brought down entirely by his outside shooting. He's 11-21 from 2-point range, good for 52.4%. No problem there whatsoever. But he's just 1-12 (8.3%) from 3-point land to date, which tanks his overall offensive efficiency.
As others have pointed out, he's been a big contributor in other key areas — leading the team in OR% and DR%, and 2nd in assist rate (only behind Andrew Rowsey). All three stats are significantly higher than Matt Heldt. Turnover rate is also higher than the team average, so there's room for improvement there.
According to KenPom.com, Harry's performance has been good enough for him to earn 33% of the available minutes at the center spot over the past 5 games — tied with Matt.
I expect we'll see more of Harry's post game as he gets more comfortable on the court and in the flow of the offense. Outside shooting is the wild card. For now, I'd say we don't need him taking threes unless he proves he can hit somewhere around 35%.
I would assume the remaining third of those minutes would be assigned to Theo. Is that right? Is it easy to figure out how that has changed from the non-con schedule to conference play? Theo seems to have improved with each conference game after a bit of a slow start, and now I'm very excited to see where he'll be in the next year or two. The frontcourt duo of Morrow and Theo in 2 years is going to be awesome.
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I'm not sure how KenPom.com comes up with its depth chart calculations. But here's a breakdown of playing time for Matt, Harry and Theo:
First 14 games
Matt Heldt 340 minutes (24.2 mpg)
Theo John 154 minutes (11.0 mpg)
Harry Froling 51 minutes (12.8 mpg, DNP in first 10 games)
Last 5 games
Matt Heldt 85 minutes (17.0 mpg)
Theo John 74 minutes (14.8 mpg)
Harry Froling 63 minutes (12.6 mpg)
Matt logged at least 20 minutes in 9 of the first 10 games before Harry became eligible. He's only posted 20+ minutes in 4 of the 9 games since. But while Harry and Theo are clearly taking playing time from Matt, Matt is still getting the most minutes of the three.
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I know i do and so does everyone else on here, we underestimate what Heldt does for this team. It's not like we need him to go for 20 and 10 a game (it would be nice). We just need him in there to play great defense which he has for most of this season so far
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I know i do and so does everyone else on here, we underestimate what Heldt does for this team. It's not like we need him to go for 20 and 10 a game (it would be nice). We just need him in there to play great defense which he has for most of this season so far
I think I perfectly estimate what Heldt does for the team.
We will be a better team when we have enough talent to limit Matt's minutes to <10 per game.
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I think I perfectly estimate what Heldt does for the team.
We will be a better team when we have enough talent to limit Matt's minutes to <10 per game.
Agreed. Which we should next season. I'd be shocked if Matt plays more than 15 MPG next conference season. He is barely over that so far this conference season.
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Agreed. Which we should next season. I'd be shocked if Matt plays more than 15 MPG next conference season. He is barely over that so far this conference season.
I can't figure out this Matt situation. What is the real problem with him? Is it that his offensive game is very one-dimensional and he's only capable of scoring when he has an open look? Statistically speaking, his numbers are good. >75%tile in OR and DR%, 95%tile in BLK%, and of course the best ORTG on the team
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I can't figure out this Matt situation. What is the real problem with him? Is it that his offensive game is very one-dimensional and he's only capable of scoring when he has an open look? Statistically speaking, his numbers are good. >75%tile in OR and DR%, 95%tile in BLK%, and of course the best ORTG on the team
There's not a problem, per se. Matt plays his role very well. Doesn't try to do too much (because he can't). Gives max effort. He's a great guy to bring off the bench. Next year, we'll simply have more guys that are better than he is. Joey and Morrow come in. Theo will be improved, and is substantially stronger and more athletic than Matt. Harry has far more to his offensive game than Matt does. Heldt will certainly get his minutes, but the volume of frontcourt players alone should limit them.
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I can't figure out this Matt situation. What is the real problem with him? Is it that his offensive game is very one-dimensional and he's only capable of scoring when he has an open look? Statistically speaking, his numbers are good. >75%tile in OR and DR%, 95%tile in BLK%, and of course the best ORTG on the team
I like to have some fun with some Scoopers joking about advanced stats, but this really does address some of the limitations of advanced stats.
I mean, Matt's usage is too low to have any of the other stats mean much. It's like the QB with the perfect passer rating because he completed 3-of-4 passes including a 75-yard TD in his only game.
Offensively, we are practically 4-on-5 with Matt on the floor. He is the center version of Derrick Wilson. (Except he's a better FT shooter - and probably a better 3-point shooter too!) He is timid and indecisive and just not offensively adept.
Defensively, Matt is an acceptable on-ball, big-on-big defender. He does not seem to be any better at hedging, handling screens, switching to defend smaller players, etc than any other big on our roster. As a rebounder, he's "OK."
Some of the above is stat-based. Much is the eye test.
Matt seems like a fine young man and he actually has overachieved IMHO based on what I thought a year ago about what his ceiling might be. But for a team with Sweet 16, Elite 8 and even Final Four aspirations, as next year's team purports to be, he is a 10-minute-max guy.
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There's not a problem, per se. Matt plays his role very well. Doesn't try to do too much (because he can't). Gives max effort. He's a great guy to bring off the bench. Next year, we'll simply have more guys that are better than he is. Joey and Morrow come in. Theo will be improved, and is substantially stronger and more athletic than Matt. Harry has far more to his offensive game than Matt does. Heldt will certainly get his minutes, but the volume of frontcourt players alone should limit them.
I guess I shouldn't have worded it as a "problem" and more of "why doesn't he get more minutes." But by "he can't do too much," is it that he can't drive, doesn't have a mid-range game, low FTR%? EDIT:: MU82 answered above
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I like to have some fun with some Scoopers joking about advanced stats, but this really does address some of the limitations of advanced stats.
I mean, Matt's usage is too low to have any of the other stats mean much. It's like the QB with the perfect passer rating because he completed 3-of-4 passes including a 75-yard TD in his only game.
Offensively, we are practically 4-on-5 with Matt on the floor. He is the center version of Derrick Wilson. (Except he's a better FT shooter - and probably a better 3-point shooter too!) He is timid and indecisive and just not offensively adept.
Defensively, Matt is an acceptable on-ball, big-on-big defender. He does not seem to be any better at hedging, handling screens, switching to defend smaller players, etc than any other big on our roster. As a rebounder, he's "OK."
Some of the above is stat-based. Much is the eye test.
Matt seems like a fine young man and he actually has overachieved IMHO based on what I thought a year ago about what his ceiling might be. But for a team with Sweet 16, Elite 8 and even Final Four aspirations, as next year's team purports to be, he is a 10-minute-max guy.
The value in Matt is that we get a consistent performance in a role that the coaches have defined. He is giving us 22 minutes a game. Going into the season my projection was he was able to give us 20-25 steady minutes with Theo and Harry soaking up the rest.
I am projecting us as a sweet 16 team this year, with Matt in his current role. We have the Big 3 and then we need guys who enjoy doing the dirty work and that is what Matt does. Please do not compare Matt to Derrick. Matt has offense, he is just not given the green light to go beyond what he does. If Matt goes to 10 minutes next year because we simply can't keep Theo and Harry off the floor, he would embrace that role too and that is what is great about the kid. By the way I was in the Derrick would be great for 10 minutes of energy role camp. So I understand where you are coming from , but I think Matt has more value than just that.
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The value in Matt is that we get a consistent performance in a role that the coaches have defined. He is giving us 22 minutes a game. Going into the season my projection was he was able to give us 20-25 steady minutes with Theo and Harry soaking up the rest.
I am projecting us as a sweet 16 team this year, with Matt in his current role. We have the Big 3 and then we need guys who enjoy doing the dirty work and that is what Matt does. Please do not compare Matt to Derrick. Matt has offense, he is just not given the green light to go beyond what he does. If Matt goes to 10 minutes next year because we simply can't keep Theo and Harry off the floor, he would embrace that role too and that is what is great about the kid. By the way I was in the Derrick would be great for 10 minutes of energy role camp. So I understand where you are coming from , but I think Matt has more value than just that.
I want more from my starting major-college center than "consistently" getting 3-5 points, 3-5 rebounds and OK defense.
So I guess we agree to disagree here.
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I want more from my starting major-college center than "consistently" getting 3-5 points, 3-5 rebounds and OK defense.
So I guess we agree to disagree here.
The center you want is going to demand the ball more and take it out of the hands of three 40 percent plus 3 point shooters. In another year your center would be preferred. Look at our center as a group project this year. Take the 3 guys in total we get what we need and that is why we are going to have a great season.
The Lakers won lots of titles with Kurt Rambis in their starting lineup.
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Other than getting caught too far outside on high screen coverage on D (which I believe is a coaching desire and not a player fault), Matt is ALWAYS in the right place on Offense and Defense. That deserves minutes.
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I think you guys are greatly underestimating Matt's value to this team. Matt plays hard every minute on offense and defense. He is our most unselfish player. We are lucky to have him.
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I think you guys are greatly underestimating Matt's value to this team. Matt plays hard every minute on offense and defense. He is our most unselfish player. We are lucky to have him.
We are lucky to have him rather than a version of him with the same physical abilities and no understanding of his limitations. But I look forward to a time when that is not enough to be a starter on a Wojo-coached team.
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I think you guys are greatly underestimating Matt's value to this team. Matt plays hard every minute on offense and defense. He is our most unselfish player. We are lucky to have him.
+1. And the one guy who will never complain about his playing time or role.
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Current value add:
Heldt 2.72
John 0.17
Froling 0.00
Theo and Harry are replacement level players at the moment. Their negatives balance out the positives (Theo's foul rate, Harry's eFG, TO rate for both).
Matt isn't great but he minimizes negative plays and provides his positives very efficiently. But when Theo and Harry catchup, they could blow right past Matt. At least that is my hope.
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The center you want is going to demand the ball more and take it out of the hands of three 40 percent plus 3 point shooters. In another year your center would be preferred. Look at our center as a group project this year. Take the 3 guys in total we get what we need and that is why we are going to have a great season.
The Lakers won lots of titles with Kurt Rambis in their starting lineup.
Good points. I believe Wojo is coaching the center position perfectly this season. Matt brings a lot of value to the team, yet Theo and Harry are getting their opportunities. We will go as far as our Big Three can take us this year.
As it relates to next year, I agree with those who feel Matt's minutes will be hard to come by. However, Wojo loves Matt, he's a great kid, serviceable - but ideally in a 10 minute role next season.
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I believe Wojo is coaching the center position perfectly this season. Matt brings a lot of value to the team, yet Theo and Harry are getting their opportunities. We will go as far as our Big Three can take us this year.
As it relates to next year, I agree with those who feel Matt's minutes will be hard to come by. However, Wojo loves Matt, he's a great kid, serviceable - but ideally in a 10 minute role next season.
I agree 100% with this.
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Current value add:
Heldt 2.72
John 0.17
Froling 0.00
Theo and Harry are replacement level players at the moment. Their negatives balance out the positives (Theo's foul rate, Harry's eFG, TO rate for both).
Matt isn't great but he minimizes negative plays and provides his positives very efficiently. But when Theo and Harry catchup, they could blow right past Matt. At least that is my hope.
I feel like Theo is catching up pretty quickly. Much better foul rate and improved offensive game. Needs work on his rebounding though, but I love his rim protection.
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Heldt just need to be the Ousmane Barro of the Amigos era now.
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Harry 2 starting lineup
#Truth
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Harry 27 mp. Matt & Theo combined: 11.
#WeDoThis
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Harry 27 mp. Matt & Theo combined: 11.
#WeDoThis
Harry looked good in the first half, but he was a little quiet in the second. Probably partly conditioning and partly backing off due to foul trouble. Now that he's playing a true 5 role, he's really making some nice contributions on offense. I don't think he missed a shot today. And even though he didn't grab many boards, which is odd for him, I think he poked a few out to other guys.
I'm happy with the change in his game, personally. He's good in the paint, and he's playing there a lot more now than he did for the first half of his season. Hopefully he keeps this up and carries his confidence playing down low into next season.
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One thing I've noticed about Harry is he seems indecisive in the post at times. He'll make a solid move but instead of going up with little hook shot he'll hesitate or look to pass. He seems comfortable catching the ball and getting in position to score so hoping to see some progress here.
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One thing I've noticed about Harry is he seems indecisive in the post at times. He'll make a solid move but instead of going up with little hook shot he'll hesitate or look to pass. He seems comfortable catching the ball and getting in position to score so hoping to see some progress here.
I think this is a confidence issue. As he gets used to game speed/situations that indecisiveness will go away. Pleased with his progress so far and hope it continues.
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I think this is a confidence issue. As he gets used to game speed/situations that indecisiveness will go away. Pleased with his progress so far and hope it continues.
Definite possibility. Hopefully he remains in the starting lineup. Lots of potential.
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I think this is a confidence issue. As he gets used to game speed/situations that indecisiveness will go away. Pleased with his progress so far and hope it continues.
I think it might be the switch from wanting to play on the perimeter to now looking to play more down low. He might be fighting his instincts a little more than usual.
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Harry is clearly the most talented offensively. He did some good things on the offensive end and actually made a couple of nice defensive plays. Harry haters, your thoughts?
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Harry is clearly the most talented offensively. He did some good things on the offensive end and actually made a couple of nice defensive plays. Harry haters, your thoughts?
Not a hater but have been a little perplexed until recently. He's easily our most talented big man.
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So now we've seen some more of Harry, and we've seen ups and downs from the freshmen and Sacar in conference play. I'm more convinced now than I was before that the addition of Harry isn't going to change this team very much. I know there are still some people that see potential due to his size and "shooting ability" but he's just not turning out to be the player he was touted to be just yet.
I think having Harry in practice will continue to make Theo better, and that will ultimately be his biggest contribution to this team.
Some good analysis after two weeks of play... :)
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Harry is clearly the most talented offensively. He did some good things on the offensive end and actually made a couple of nice defensive plays. Harry haters, your thoughts?
I think this could be a big turning point for him. From what I remember, his only other good performances were against cupcakes.
I thought he had some nice dishes and focused on making himself available down low. He didn't take any bizarre shots or attempt any 3s. It was a treat to watch him most of the game.
Obviously he can clean up the silly turnovers and not get lost on D, his defensive performance was kind of rough. But I think across the board he impressed me against an incredible team. Good on Wojo for starting him due to his hard work in practice.
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I think Harry benefited from playing against a team that doesn't have a physical presence on the inside. Playing at that pace helped him.
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I think he has finally caught up to game speed and has his legs under him. A couple of bad passes today. But he was yelling and talking and working. Good hands, nice touch. Don't give up on players so quickly.
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Nice to see Froling start and get involved early. He didn't look tentative most of the time, and he moved well to the hoop.
He did no worse defensively than Matt would have, and at least Froling has to be accounted for on offense.
Those who thought Wojo would stay with Heldt out of loyalty or something ... c'mon. He's a coach and he'll do what he thinks gives his team the best chance to win. I mean, just a year ago, he took Luke out of the starting lineup - and I know he liked Luke a lot.
Matt played 8 minutes today; that seems about right for a center of his limited skill-set playing in a power basketball conference.
I'm sure there still will be games in which Matt plays more and plays better, but he is neither our present nor our future at that position. It only makes sense to use the more talented player. We are not the 1970s Warriors, so blessed with talent that Al could afford to "send messages" with starts and playing time.
I think Harry will continue to get better as he plays more and gets involved in a variety of offensive situations.
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I think Harry benefited from playing against a team that doesn't have a physical presence on the inside. Playing at that pace helped him.
Hmmm... Spellman...Pachalll......
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Hmmm... Spellman...Pachalll......
Sam was on Paschal all game. Spellman isn't overly physical.
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Sam was on Paschal all game. Spellman isn't overly physical.
Uhh Spellman was not on court quite a bit. Paschal was the 5...
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IMHO, Harry mostly benefited from getting the start, getting good post touches early, getting serious minutes, and getting the ball in scoring position.
I continue to think that Wojo has had a pretty good feel these last 2 seasons for which center should play when. I trust he will keep making good decisions.
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Harry starting again. But we knew this would happen.
#WeDoThis
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Harry starting again. But we knew this would happen.
#WeDoThis
Not his best night. Although all of our bigs were pretty awful. This is his second game in a row with just 2 boards. I wonder why he's having trouble. That was the best thing he had going for him early on, but in his 2 games as a starter, his rebounding has been sub-par. Weird.
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Not his best night. Although all of our bigs were pretty awful. This is his second game in a row with just 2 boards. I wonder why he's having trouble. That was the best thing he had going for him early on, but in his 2 games as a starter, his rebounding has been sub-par. Weird.
Agreed. He seemed shy right from the get go. Bizarre games from him and Towsey tonight imo
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Used ta bee I wuz kinda sad ta see a playa leave after fore years. Nowadaze, its good ridants, hey?
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Agreed. He seemed shy right from the get go. Bizarre games from him and Towsey tonight imo
If anybody re-watches the game, yeah right, there was a loose ball under the defensive basket and Harry just dropped it. Sam was next to him and you could read his lips and hand gesture saying "grab the f*ckin ball"
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It would appear that Harry is not a game-changer, much less a season changer. The fact that there's all this discussion about who's better indicates that they must be fairly close. At this stage of the game I'm in favor of giving Theo as much run as possible, I think he has the most upside.
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It would appear that Harry is not a game-changer, much less a season changer. The fact that there's all this discussion about who's better indicates that they must be fairly close. At this stage of the game I'm in favor of giving Theo as much run as possible, I think he has the most upside.
If we drop the game this weekend, then I'd say give Theo more PT. But while we still have a shot at a tourney bid, we need to play to win. it seems like having 3 bigs rotate has been helpful, especially because Harry and Theo have been prone to foul trouble. I'm guessing Harry will continue to start, but I expect Theo and Matt to be playing 10-20 minutes per game as well.
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Here are Heldt's minute the last six games: 10 - 17 - 9 -8 - 11 - 5.
Has the reduction in his minutes contributed to the team's worst stretch this season (1-5, with only W over DePaul and 3 lopsided defeats)? Or is that just a coincidence?
I say "coincidence." When things were going bad, I never once said, "You know, what we need right now is more Matt." But I'd be curious to hear if others think differently.
Related: Loved the energy (not to mention pts, rebs and blks) Theo brought yesterday. He was positioned to be the breakthrough SOTG if we had won. A freshman who is developing nicely.
Froling, meanwhile, seems quite lost.
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Here are Heldt's minute the last six games: 10 - 17 - 9 -8 - 11 - 5.
Has the reduction in his minutes contributed to the team's worst stretch this season (1-5, with only W over DePaul and 3 lopsided defeats)? Or is that just a coincidence?
I say "coincidence." When things were going bad, I never once said, "You know, what we need right now is more Matt." But I'd be curious to hear if others think differently.
I don't have the minute by min numbers, but my impression is that the team did not play great during his 5 min stretch on Sat....
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dont know if you all know this but Jacob Epperson former MU target played his 3rd game for creighton tonight, was previously redshirted but because of injuries had to start playing
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dont know if you all know this but Jacob Epperson former MU target played his 3rd game for creighton tonight, was previously redshirted but because of injuries had to start playing
Did it come down to Harry or Epperson? I don't even remember the name. He seems like he might be a bigger physical project than even Harry was when he first got to campus. Epperson is listed at 6-11, 209. He's built like Greg, just taller. He's gonna have to hit the weight room hard this summer.
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Epperson and MU were dancing bit not committing. Then MU landed other bigs and didn't need him.
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Froling was physical and aggressive last night. Didn't score. But he did not get abused. Matt was better.