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18-12

Author Topic: NM  (Read 829248 times)

Jockey

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Re: NM
« Reply #600 on: August 18, 2017, 10:17:55 PM »
Not the right time?  The historic statues will be gone of we don't stop the nonsense NOW!

Actually, I think it is just the statues of the guys that killed American soldiers that people want to get rid of.

Like the guy who swore an oath to defend the country and the Constitution while at West Point, but then decided he'd rather lead an effort to destroy the country he swore to defend. Move the traitors to a museum or melt them down.

rocket surgeon

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Re: NM
« Reply #601 on: August 19, 2017, 12:48:29 AM »
Actually, I think it is just the statues of the guys that killed American soldiers that people want to get rid of.

Like the guy who swore an oath to defend the country and the Constitution while at West Point, but then decided he'd rather lead an effort to destroy the country he swore to defend. Move the traitors to a museum or melt them down.

yeah, that's what all the hate groups do-ruin and destroy monuments and statues that make them feel a little uncomfortable.  now if you were to pose the question to the people-over 60% want to keep them,  less than 30% want to criminally damage them
i'll take ape tit for $200 alex

TAMU Eagle

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Re: NM
« Reply #602 on: August 19, 2017, 01:48:36 AM »
Always use a rub. Sauce is for yankees and carpetbaggers. It ruins the meat. Good call on the beef broth injection.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

TAMU Eagle

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Re: NM
« Reply #603 on: August 19, 2017, 01:59:48 AM »
Probably to the surprise of many here I actually support the statue staying up. I think its important to acknowledge the sins of our past and have them out in the open so we can learn from them. My American history classes were criminally whitewashed up until my junior year of high school. I was fortunate enough to have a teacher who included lessons on such atrocities as the "reeducation" of Native Americans, Japanese Internment, and the Annexation of Hawaii.

Now I do think the plaque with the statue needs to be one that educates on the past, not praises a traitor. I also agree that the park needed to be renamed. You only name parks after people you want to honor.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

tower912

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Re: NM
« Reply #604 on: August 19, 2017, 07:10:06 AM »
Monuments to treason.   Rock on. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

GooooMarquette

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Re: NM
« Reply #605 on: August 19, 2017, 07:16:34 AM »
If the goal is to remember the past - even those who violated the law and killed American citizens - we should probably put a Timothy McVeigh statue up as well.  I'm sure the history buffs would be ok with that…

Retire0

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Re: NM
« Reply #606 on: August 19, 2017, 09:01:49 AM »
Speaking of fast food breakfast, don't sleep on Taco Bell. Fantastic items there.
New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new

Jay Bee

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Re: NM
« Reply #607 on: August 19, 2017, 09:11:42 AM »
Agreed.  Really good book.

What, are there a bunch of colorful pictures in the book??

MUEng92

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Re: NM
« Reply #608 on: August 19, 2017, 11:06:08 AM »
As someone who grew up in northern Illinois who's family didn't travel outside of a three state radius, I led a very sheltered childhood in terms of history.  Nothing of historical significance took place in my area so the only way to learn about it was hearing it from my teachers and reading it in textbooks.  My biggest interest was sports and I liked math and science much more, so history was of little interest to me.

After graduating from MU and starting to travel for work I was able to take side trips to places like Independence Hall and Monticello.  It really opened my eyes to the fact that these historical "stories" I was forced to read as a kid were real.  The people walked the same floors I was walking.  It was absolutely fascinating and made me strongly regret not being able to have the experiences as a kid.

Through other trips, both vacation and work, I've also been to historical sites like the JFK assassination museum, the MLK assassination museum, the Museum of the Salem witch trials and a Civil War era cemetery in Memphis.  These brought home that the despicable side of history is just as real and should not be forgotten. 

I see some of these statues as reminders of some people who made meaningful contributions to society that still impact our current lives but at the same time were not perfect human beings.  Others I see as reminders of wretched people who were still able to rise to various levels of power and leadership.  I don't see those as monuments as much as warnings of what could happen again.

I am concerned that if we wipe clean the historical markers that we don't like, all kids are doomed to the historically ignorant childhood I led with little chance to have there eyes opened as adults.

brewcity77

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Re: NM
« Reply #609 on: August 19, 2017, 12:47:16 PM »
What a surprise, politics will be the death of this thread  ::)
@Theojohn123: We are about change. If you can’t support us here. I ask you Please don’t support us on the court. #mubb #BlackLivesMatter

https://twitter.com/theojohn123/status/1268335482305425413?s=21

GGGG

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Re: NM
« Reply #610 on: August 19, 2017, 12:51:30 PM »
Probably to the surprise of many here I actually support the statue staying up. I think its important to acknowledge the sins of our past and have them out in the open so we can learn from them. My American history classes were criminally whitewashed up until my junior year of high school. I was fortunate enough to have a teacher who included lessons on such atrocities as the "reeducation" of Native Americans, Japanese Internment, and the Annexation of Hawaii.

Now I do think the plaque with the statue needs to be one that educates on the past, not praises a traitor. I also agree that the park needed to be renamed. You only name parks after people you want to honor.


If you don't want to repeat the mistakes of slavery, then make statues memorializing slaves.  Not ones glorifying traitors.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: NM
« Reply #611 on: August 19, 2017, 01:25:41 PM »

If you don't want to repeat the mistakes of slavery, then make statues memorializing slaves.  Not ones glorifying traitors.

Interesting dilemma: Leave to crumble or restore to remember?  We cannot forget history or we will repeat it. Go to Rome and blow up the ancient cities?  The Roman Empire were not good people either...less so than the Conderates, in fact. Loonies will always take things to the fringe...with or without statues.

Do you honestly believe those statues "glorify traitors" to 98% of the USA, or are reminders of the worst war in our history, one that is still being fought today?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nuremberg-germanys-dilemma-over-the-nazis-field-of-dreams-a6793276.html

keefe

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Re: NM
« Reply #612 on: August 19, 2017, 01:55:53 PM »
People should consider the fact that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were not slaveholders. And one cannot discount the fact that state's rights was the predominate issue at play.

Our country was an imperfect union from the start - John Adams made significant moral compromises to effect the sole goal of independence from Great Britain. The history of America through the election of Lincoln hinged on the central question of federal versus state authority.

Were confederate soldiers traitors? Some might judge them as such but I do believe they fought for their conception of what the American Republic was supposed to be. And no less an authority than Lincoln said we were obliged to welcome them back as the American brothers they always were.

People want to eradicate Robert E. Lee from the pages of history but had Virginia not seceded he would have commanded the Union Army. His loyalty, as was the loyalty of almost every American in the antebellum period, was not to the Republic but to their community then state.

Lee was a brilliant field commander whose campaigns are still studied in America's War Colleges (of which I am a graduate.) He served his nation and then his state. We should cherish his greatness while understanding his faults.



Death on call

keefe

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Re: NM
« Reply #613 on: August 19, 2017, 02:04:38 PM »
Add some cayenne, garlic, and brown sugar to what you already have

Already in there, brother


Death on call

tower912

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Re: NM
« Reply #614 on: August 19, 2017, 02:07:15 PM »
U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3:  Treason against the United States, Shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Spin it any way you want.    The confederacy committed treason against the US when it waged war.    And you can spin state's rights any way you want, but in the end, they committed treason to preserve the institution of slavery.      They chose to fight for their slaves and against their country.    Anything else, in my opinion, is mealy-mouthed spin and sanitizing history. 

Put those statues, erected during the Jim Crow period in our history, in a museum, with long stories explaining their context.    Take them out of our public spaces and government buildings. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 02:16:40 PM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Herman Cain

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Re: NM
« Reply #615 on: August 19, 2017, 02:13:26 PM »
Probably to the surprise of many here I actually support the statue staying up. I think its important to acknowledge the sins of our past and have them out in the open so we can learn from them. My American history classes were criminally whitewashed up until my junior year of high school. I was fortunate enough to have a teacher who included lessons on such atrocities as the "reeducation" of Native Americans, Japanese Internment, and the Annexation of Hawaii.

Now I do think the plaque with the statue needs to be one that educates on the past, not praises a traitor. I also agree that the park needed to be renamed. You only name parks after people you want to honor.
There was nothing improper about the Annexation of Hawaii.  The prior Kingdom was run in a ruthless and bloody fashion.  It all ended up very well for the Hawaiians as they became part of the United States.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: NM
« Reply #616 on: August 19, 2017, 02:18:43 PM »
I honestly didn't realize they still make $2 bills.  Can't recall the last time I saw one....

I toured the Mint in DC last summer and they said they still print, but no more than once a year.

GGGG

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Re: NM
« Reply #617 on: August 19, 2017, 02:22:52 PM »
People should consider the fact that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were not slaveholders. And one cannot discount the fact that state's rights was the predominate issue at play.

Our country was an imperfect union from the start - John Adams made significant moral compromises to effect the sole goal of independence from Great Britain. The history of America through the election of Lincoln hinged on the central question of federal versus state authority.

Were confederate soldiers traitors? Some might judge them as such but I do believe they fought for their conception of what the American Republic was supposed to be. And no less an authority than Lincoln said we were obliged to welcome them back as the American brothers they always were.

People want to eradicate Robert E. Lee from the pages of history but had Virginia not seceded he would have commanded the Union Army. His loyalty, as was the loyalty of almost every American in the antebellum period, was not to the Republic but to their community then state.

Lee was a brilliant field commander whose campaigns are still studied in America's War Colleges (of which I am a graduate.) He served his nation and then his state. We should cherish his greatness while understanding his faults.




No one will forget the Civil War because Lee isn't glorified with a statue. Read about him as a field commander all you want, but he was a traitor who fought to retain an awful institution. He should not be honored.

And let's remember why these statues were erected in the first place.

keefe

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Re: NM
« Reply #618 on: August 19, 2017, 02:23:48 PM »
Interesting dilemma: Leave to crumble or restore to remember?  We cannot forget history or we will repeat it. Go to Rome and blow up the ancient cities?  The Roman Empire were not good people either...less so than the Conderates, in fact. Loonies will always take things to the fringe...with or without statues.

Do you honestly believe those statues "glorify traitors" to 98% of the USA, or are reminders of the worst war in our history, one that is still being fought today?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nuremberg-germanys-dilemma-over-the-nazis-field-of-dreams-a6793276.html

I have spent a lot of time in the South and the majority of statues on town squares are not generals but common soldiers. Anyone who has served in combat and lost comrades knows it is about the men by your side. These statues are not celebrating anything other than the sacrifice and loss experienced during that terrible war.

I was stationed at Spangdahlem where there is a large cemetery for Wehrmacht soldiers killed in combat. Ronald Reagan caused a stir by visiting that cemetery while President. Frankly, I thought it was a magnanimous gesture to underscore the fact that former enemies were now partners in peace.

There are two scenes from the Spielberg series Band of Brothers which captures the magnanimity of America in victory and underscores the bond that only warriors know:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/IU8Fv4W-RII" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/IU8Fv4W-RII</a> 

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/VcMk85ZsBh0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/VcMk85ZsBh0</a>



Death on call

tower912

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Re: NM
« Reply #619 on: August 19, 2017, 02:34:20 PM »
I remember the scenes.   I have a bond with the men I have fought fires with for these 27 years.    I get that part of it.    I truly do.   Here is where I strongly disagree.    There is no way to get around the fact that the confederacy attacked and tried to dissolve the USA through secession.    Declaring war against the USA is the constitutional definition of treason.     By your reasoning, we should have statues of others who have attacked the USA because they bonded with their fellow soldiers.    We should put up statues of German, Japanese, Iraqi soldiers who fought against the USA because it wasn't really about ideology for them.   
    We should remember the confederacy.    There should be museums about it, like the Holocaust museum, that really gets deeply into the story, the history, the context, that pulls no punches describing the mindset of the confederacy, both from a state's rights perspective, as well as from a slavery perspective.  But these statues should not be in the public square.   
   Which is why I would never support taking down the statues of the founding fathers.    I think that is a red herring of an argument.   Our founding fathers were flawed individuals, like the rest of us.   It is unfortunate that they kept slaves and compromised on the issue when writing constitution.   But their goal was to create this country.     The goal of the leaders of the confederacy was to destroy it.   
   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Lennys Tap

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Re: NM
« Reply #620 on: August 19, 2017, 02:51:30 PM »
People should consider the fact that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were not slaveholders. And one cannot discount the fact that state's rights was the predominate issue at play.

Our country was an imperfect union from the start - John Adams made significant moral compromises to effect the sole goal of independence from Great Britain. The history of America through the election of Lincoln hinged on the central question of federal versus state authority.

Were confederate soldiers traitors? Some might judge them as such but I do believe they fought for their conception of what the American Republic was supposed to be. And no less an authority than Lincoln said we were obliged to welcome them back as the American brothers they always were.

People want to eradicate Robert E. Lee from the pages of history but had Virginia not seceded he would have commanded the Union Army. His loyalty, as was the loyalty of almost every American in the antebellum period, was not to the Republic but to their community then state.

Lee was a brilliant field commander whose campaigns are still studied in America's War Colleges (of which I am a graduate.) He served his nation and then his state. We should cherish his greatness while understanding his faults.

Agree totally, Crash. Those who want to judge people from 150, 250 or 2000 years ago without context sadden me. Their moral high horses are unwarranted, IMHO.

GGGG

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Re: NM
« Reply #621 on: August 19, 2017, 02:56:59 PM »
Agree totally, Crash. Those who want to judge people from 150, 250 or 2000 years ago without context sadden me. Their moral high horses are unwarranted, IMHO.

"Judging without context?"  They were judged AT THE TIME.  And lost a war because of it.

GooooMarquette

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Re: NM
« Reply #622 on: August 19, 2017, 03:03:23 PM »
"Judging without context?"  They were judged AT THE TIME.  And lost a war because of it.

Yep.  And we still have a good idea of that context today.


real chili 83

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Re: NM
« Reply #623 on: August 19, 2017, 03:04:22 PM »
Already in there, brother

Send pics. This thread could use some meat porn.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: NM
« Reply #624 on: August 19, 2017, 03:12:10 PM »
Thoughts on Taco Bell Baja sauce?