NM

[real chili 83]

No one is saying that. Just that we shouldn't continue to whitewash American history.

Agreed.

[Dr. Blackheart]

So again, a bunch of foreign businessmen held a monarch at gunpoint and forced him to sign a constitution that transferred all of the voting rights away from native Hawaiians to the foreign plantation owners. But its okay because it protected American interests over European interests.

That sounds like the same garbage argument as "Slavery was actually great for black people, if we didn't do it, they would be stuck in Africa right now!"

I know you agree with me on this one...but I might add, 93% of Hawaiians voted for statehood.  What they didn't have a vote on was the whitewashing of their culture--the language, the pagan religious mores, the monuments, the history.  All were whitewashed and are just now finding their way back in political ways.

I plan on throwing an extra $20 in the mass basket today to remove half the Papal tombs from St. Peter's based on this enlightening thread. Out with JP2, the Jesuits and throw in Joan of Arc too.

How sad. But, I could use a nice meat rub just about now, though.

[4everwarriors]

Gosh, we better give Hawaii back, and while we are at it, we should give back North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and the Ohio Valley.

I had two Pink Ladies yesterday.  Nice and tart.

Data boy, nice 3 way, hey?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Got a 3 pound bag of Jazz apples the other day at Aldi for $3.29.  Pretty good value and a nice change from the usual Pink Ladies.

[Jay Bee]

Remember when Juan got a free ticket to a Brewers game? We need to shut the bball program down and cleanse the history books, stat

[GooooMarquette]

Remember when Juan got a free ticket to a Brewers game? We need to shut the bball program down and cleanse the history books, stat

Did the Brewers win that game?

[tower912]

Congratulations to the New England Patriots on their  40,000-100 victory yesterday.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Remember when Juan got a free ticket to a Brewers game? We need to shut the bball program down and cleanse the history books, stat

Abe Lincoln is best remembered for prosecuting the Civil War due to the illicit free sporting tickets Jeff Davis and Rob Lee secured.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Gosh, we better give Hawaii back, and while we are at it, we should give back North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and the Ohio Valley.

I had two Pink Ladies yesterday.  Nice and tart.

That Cialas 'scrip really workin', a'ina?

[🏀]

Tell me more about this Taco Bell breakfast.  Recommendations?  Sauce, no sauce? 

Breakfast Crunchwrap, bacon. Cinnabon for the side.

They have a special morning sauce, but I eat while driving. No sauce opportunity.

[GooooMarquette]

Abe Lincoln is best remembered for prosecuting the Civil War due to the illicit free sporting tickets Jeff Davis and Rob Lee secured.

Didn't realize the NCAA had been formed way back then.  Given that Davis and Lee committed the violations, I assume the NCAA really brought the hammer down on a coupla lowly privates....

[rocket surgeon]

Hundreds of those treasonous pieces of garbage are buried in Arlington National Cemetery. How many of them were charged, convicted and executed? Let's do it 162 years later - sounds fair to me!

    ummm, they're already dead.  if it makes ya feel any better,  maybe you can have them executed in absentia    let me know, cuz i gotta see this

[MomofMUltiples]

What brand of pellets do you get?

Lumberjack

[forgetful]

Breakfast Crunchwrap, bacon. Cinnabon for the side.

They have a special morning sauce, but I eat while driving. No sauce opportunity.

Well now I know what I'm getting for breakfast on my drive in tomorrow.

[Jay Bee]

Well now I know what I'm getting for breakfast on my drive in tomorrow.

Extra special morning sauce, heyna?

[keefe]

I remember the scenes.   I have a bond with the men I have fought fires with for these 27 years.    I get that part of it.    I truly do.   Here is where I strongly disagree.    There is no way to get around the fact that the confederacy attacked and tried to dissolve the USA through secession.    Declaring war against the USA is the constitutional definition of treason.     By your reasoning, we should have statues of others who have attacked the USA because they bonded with their fellow soldiers.    We should put up statues of German, Japanese, Iraqi soldiers who fought against the USA because it wasn't really about ideology for them.   
    We should remember the confederacy.    There should be museums about it, like the Holocaust museum, that really gets deeply into the story, the history, the context, that pulls no punches describing the mindset of the confederacy, both from a state's rights perspective, as well as from a slavery perspective.  But these statues should not be in the public square.   
   Which is why I would never support taking down the statues of the founding fathers.    I think that is a red herring of an argument.   Our founding fathers were flawed individuals, like the rest of us.   It is unfortunate that they kept slaves and compromised on the issue when writing constitution.   But their goal was to create this country.     The goal of the leaders of the confederacy was to destroy it.   

I believe it is far too simple to distill the American Civil War down to the collective treason of 11 states over just slavery. (Remember, too, that MD, MO, and KY would have left were it not for Federal garrisoning and the suspending Habeus Corpus.)

Without the south, and South Carolina in particular, there is no American Revolution and we would likely be a colonial possession of the UK through this day. (British policy towards its later dominion possessions was greatly altered by the shock of the American UDI; the UK recognized that there needed to be a middle course relationship with its dominions which were largely white/Anglo. For an excellent insight I highly recommend David Cannadine's Ornamentalism: How the British Saw Their Empire.)

I have said before that the Union which emerged from the American UDI and subsequent conflict was far from perfect. So flawed was the Union that the Civil War was almost inevitable.

Because of compromises made in the 18th Century by the Continental Congress and under the Articles of Confederation the secessionists genuinely believed there was legal basis for withdrawing from the Union. And frankly, they are not actually wrong. Fact is, Lincoln maintained the Union through armed force. There was a reason he suspended Habeus Corpus.

To blithely categorize confederates as traitors is to trivialize a very complex problem.   

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Taco Bell rules

[tower912]

I've read books espousing that point of view.  It has always felt like desperate attempts to hide the most basic, unavoidable, underlying fact.  They declared war on the USA, tried to secede, to preserve slavery.  The rationalizations are just wordy attempts to assuage guilty consciences and deflect from an uncomfortable truth.  To me, Keefe, it IS that simple.

[GGGG]

I believe it is far too simple to distill the American Civil War down to the collective treason of 11 states over just slavery. (Remember, too, that MD, MO, and KY would have left were it not for Federal garrisoning and the suspending Habeus Corpus.)

Without the south, and South Carolina in particular, there is no American Revolution and we would likely be a colonial possession of the UK through this day. (British policy towards its later dominion possessions was greatly altered by the shock of the American UDI; the UK recognized that there needed to be a middle course relationship with its dominions which were largely white/Anglo. For an excellent insight I highly recommend David Cannadine's Ornamentalism: How the British Saw Their Empire.)

I have said before that the Union which emerged from the American UDI and subsequent conflict was far from perfect. So flawed was the Union that the Civil War was almost inevitable.

Because of compromises made in the 18th Century by the Continental Congress and under the Articles of Confederation the secessionists genuinely believed there was legal basis for withdrawing from the Union. And frankly, they are not actually wrong. Fact is, Lincoln maintained the Union through armed force. There was a reason he suspended Habeus Corpus.

To blithely categorize confederates as traitors is to trivialize a very complex problem.   

LOL.  OK.  I guess if you want to redefine treason. 

Statues still shouldn't be around though.  They meant something sinister when they were erected.  They mean something sinister now.

To blithely write that off trivializes a pretty straight-forward issue.

[keefe]

I read one of my favorite authors this weekend. Faulkner wrote, "The past is never dead. In fact, it isn't even past."

One of the most offensive weapons employed by ideologues is banning free speech. When does Faulkner's magnificent pen or Twain's wry wit  get tossed on the burning heap?

[keefe]

I've read books espousing that point of view.  It has always felt like desperate attempts to hide the most basic, unavoidable, underlying fact.  They declared war on the USA, tried to secede, to preserve slavery.  The rationalizations are just wordy attempts to assuage guilty consciences and deflect from an uncomfortable truth.  To me, Keefe, it IS that simple.

Then we agree to disagree. I highly recommend a thorough understanding of the Articles of Confederation and what was and what was not agreed to by the Constitutional Convention. The founding of this country was a series of compromises. The exiting states considered themse;lves sovereign entities and had a legal basis for secession.

[keefe]

LOL.  OK.  I guess if you want to redefine treason. 

Statues still shouldn't be around though.  They meant something sinister when they were erected.  They mean something sinister now.

To blithely write that off trivializes a pretty straight-forward issue.

I really don't care about statues. I am addressing an altogether different issue.

[tower912]

Faulkner and Twain?  Never.   False argument.   Red Herring.     Keefe, I understand your arguments about a flawed constitution, the 3/5 solution,  state's rights, union overreach, Missouri Compromise, Kansas-Nebraska act, Dred Scott.......   they all have one unifying theme.     The stain on America's conscience.      I accept that the founding fathers were flawed souls, many of whom were slave holders.    I accept the notion that many great Americans in the first 75 years of our nation were slaveowners.     That this was part of society.     This should not be whitewashed.    It should be taken out, held up to the light, and studied for the flaws within it to remind us of how easy it is to go along with society instead of doing the right thing.   I want the confederate statues taken down because these leaders led a war against our country to protect that sin.   Take the statues, put them in museums devoted to telling the story of slavery and the confederacy.     But don't hold them up as icons and heroes to put in front of schools and government buildings. 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

One of the most offensive weapons employed by ideologues is banning free speech.

That will be really great point...when free speech is banned.

[rocket surgeon]

That will be really great point...when free speech is banned.

  it hasn't been banned outright, but there are some out there who have accomplished it, hopefully temporarily.  we all know where that is and no need to get in to that argument.  suffice it to say, unless the light of day is shone onto it each and every time it is attempted or accomplished, it will be the ole "boiling of the frog"

that is why keefe's quote/comment is so significant-

       "One of the most offensive weapons employed by ideologues is banning free speech. When does Faulkner's magnificent pen or Twain's wry wit  get tossed on the burning heap?"