Recruiting as of 3/15/24

[WhiteTrash]

Tom Izzo
Mark Few
Jay Wright
Roy Williams
Coach K

And so many others agree.

That list is kind of like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, etc. telling us "life is too short to worry about money".

Give me a list of coaches at big time programs who kept their jobs for 10+ years without a tourney victory. If the concept that "the tourney is a crapshoot" is an accepted truth by the best basketball minds then surely an 8 year  or 10 year or more drought should be acceptable.

Honestly, I don't know if there is a list of coaches that fit the above criteria, I have not researched it. If there is, it would lend a lot of credibility to the crapshoot theory.

[jonny09]

That list is kind of like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, etc. telling us "life is too short to worry about money".

Give me a list of coaches at big time programs who kept their jobs for 10+ years without a tourney victory. If the concept that "the tourney is a crapshoot" is an accepted truth by the best basketball minds then surely an 8 year  or 10 year or more drought should be acceptable.

Honestly, I don't know if there is a list of coaches that fit the above criteria, I have not researched it. If there is, it would lend a lot of credibility to the crapshoot theory.

Exactly.  Very well said.

[Cheeks]

Actually, the details are as such....We used to win Tourney games.  Wojo took over. Now we don’t.

The details are also as such, Jay Wright took 11 years as head coach to win a tournament game.  Coach K took 10 years to win a tournament game.  And so on. 

Not all situations are the same, not everyone gets to walk into a top 15 team waiting for them, or different standards.  Or simply some are better prepared and have more experience.  I’m going to stick with him. 

[Cheeks]

That list is kind of like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, etc. telling us "life is too short to worry about money".

Give me a list of coaches at big time programs who kept their jobs for 10+ years without a tourney victory. If the concept that "the tourney is a crapshoot" is an accepted truth by the best basketball minds then surely an 8 year  or 10 year or more drought should be acceptable.

Honestly, I don't know if there is a list of coaches that fit the above criteria, I have not researched it. If there is, it would lend a lot of credibility to the crapshoot theory.

Then it seems you don’t understand what a crapshoot means in terms of the odds. 

I provided those names because they are high profile and many of them took many years to win a game.  Many of them lost some years to schools like Mercer, but in other years won the whole damn thing.  Luck, who you play, where you play, etc all matter. MU never should have lost to Miami (OH) and if we played them 20 times we beat them 19....but on that day it is all that matters. 

[jonny09]

Then it seems you don’t understand what a crapshoot means in terms of the odds. 

I provided those names because they are high profile and many of them took many years to win a game.  Many of them lost some years to schools like Mercer, but in other years won the whole damn thing.  Luck, who you play, where you play, etc all matter. MU never should have lost to Miami (OH) and if we played them 20 times we beat them 19....but on that day it is all that matters.

You’re including Jay Wright at Hofstra and Coach K at Army.  I think his point still stands.  These are not tourney schools.  It’s like saying Bill Self didn’t win a tourney game until year 11.  And his first 10 years he coached at western Illinois.  It’s a bush argument. At best

[WhiteTrash]

The details are also as such, Jay Wright took 11 years as head coach to win a tournament game.  Coach K took 10 years to win a tournament game.  And so on. 

Not all situations are the same, not everyone gets to walk into a top 15 team waiting for them, or different standards.  Or simply some are better prepared and have more experience.  I’m going to stick with him.

The details are also such; Coach K's first 5 years were at national power house Army and Wright's first 7 were at 15 time national champion Hofstra.

(I might be off by 1 or 15 championships at Hofstra)

Look, I like Wojo, I agreed with the extension and the terms of the extension. I like the optics of MU being patient with a head coach, especially when it comes time to hire a new head coach (hopefully not soon). But I have to admit that me and fellow friends who are alums would not be surprised if last year was the high water mark of Wojo's career.

[jonny09]

The details are also such; Coach K's first 5 years were at national power house Army and Wright's first 7 were at 15 time national champion Hofstra.

(I might be off by 1 or 15 championships at Hofstra)



Look, I like Wojo, I agreed with the extension and the terms of the extension. I like the optics of MU being patient with a head coach, especially when it comes time to hire a new head coach (hopefully not soon). But I have to admit that me and fellow friends who are alums would not be surprised if last year was the high water mark of Wojo's career.

Ding ding ding.  What he said.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The details are also such; Coach K's first 5 years were at national power house Army and Wright's first 7 were at 15 time national champion Hofstra.

(I might be off by 1 or 15 championships at Hofstra)

Look, I like Wojo, I agreed with the extension and the terms of the extension. I like the optics of MU being patient with a head coach, especially when it comes time to hire a new head coach (hopefully not soon). But I have to admit that me and fellow friends who are alums would not be surprised if last year was the high water mark of Wojo's career.

I don’t think it will be the high water mark. But I fear the mark isn’t much higher and will be full of more frustrations.

[WhiteTrash]

Then it seems you don’t understand what a crapshoot means in terms of the odds. 

I provided those names because they are high profile and many of them took many years to win a game.  Many of them lost some years to schools like Mercer, but in other years won the whole damn thing.  Luck, who you play, where you play, etc all matter. MU never should have lost to Miami (OH) and if we played them 20 times we beat them 19....but on that day it is all that matters.

I understand perfectly well what crapshoot means in terms of odds. Vegas built billion dollar properties in the desert based upon those odds. Over a long enough series of rolls in craps there is a 100% certainty the house will win. Since the NCAA tourney is seeded by humans there is no mathematical certainty that the higher seeds will prevail at a higher rate over a large sample size so in reality, the "crapshoot" analogy is flawed.

Look, everyone knows the beauty of the NCAA is the upsets and uncertainty. It benefits and hurts schools like MU a lot. Over a certain number of years MU's coach should make a majority of the NCAAs, win a majority of the games they are favored in, lose the majority they are dogs in, grab a few upsets and get upset in a few games too.

So the question is, when do you stop assigning lack of NCAA success to 'crapshoot bad luck" and start assigning it to poor performance by the team/coach? 2 years? Way too soon, right? 25 years? Way too long, right? 

[wadesworld]

Sprecher cream soda is awesome.

[MU82]

Any recruiting news? Right now, I'd even welcome 9-9-9 giving me Providence's recruiting news over the last couple pages of dribble.

[MUDPT]

Do any of the experts think the new rules have affected the "weirdness" of this recruiting year?  Feel like it's a lot more difficult to follow everything.

[Lennys Tap]

I provided those names because they are high profile and many of them took many years to win a game.

No. You provided those names because they are high profile and if we are OK with some basic dishonesty (including their records at places who just don't win NCAA tournament games) they appear to bolster a patently ridiculous narrative.

You're all about apples to apples and are comparing Hofstra and Army with Marquette? Sheesh.

[TheyWereCones]

Why don't you all just pull down your pants already, we'll measure the final results once and for all, and then perhaps we can all go back to talking about recruiting on the recruiting thread instead of going over the same dumb arguments between the same people over and over and over and over and over.  Insufferable.  To the few out there who actually keep it to recruiting, thank you.

[Herman Cain]

Sprecher cream soda is awesome.

One of my first financial wins was backing a small soft drink bottler of root beer who expanded into cream soda. My original stock was acquired 3 times and I still hold it today, the dividends keep coming in. So Yeah I love cream soda.

Any recruiting news? Right now, I'd even welcome 9-9-9 giving me Providence's recruiting news over the last couple pages of dribble.

In the meantime,  Providence is hot on the trail of the talented 7-0 Xavier Foster . Cooley &Company have made a great impression on the family.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/sports/high-school/recruiting/2019/08/20/oskaloosa-xavier-foster-recruiting-visits-iowa-iowa-state-virginia-tech-providence/2066650001/

[NorthernDancerColt]

Any recruiting news? Right now, I'd even welcome 9-9-9 giving me Providence's recruiting news over the last couple pages of dribble.

82, I know that at worst, “dribble” was a typo, as you are an esteemed former journalist....
However, I think you have purposely coined a new term to express disdain at basketball-related “drivel.”
Genius. Is being forced to listen to two Scoopers spewing verbal diarrhea “double dribble”?

[Galway Eagle]

Would it be possible to put the composite ranking by the players name on the table? That way we can still see the quality of offers remaining. Because  getting top 100s is everything but also because were expected to pull diamonds in the ruff but also can't win because all our top 100s are too low.

[Ben Golds Five]

THIS! 100%. If we get 5 5* recruits then maybe he shuts up. #maybe

No, but you don’t need to beat us over the head about it either.  We all have high hopes, but ....?

[shoothoops]

The details are also as such, Jay Wright took 11 years as head coach to win a tournament game.  Coach K took 10 years to win a tournament game.  And so on. 

Not all situations are the same, not everyone gets to walk into a top 15 team waiting for them, or different standards.  Or simply some are better prepared and have more experience.  I’m going to stick with him.

It took Jay Wright 4 years to win an NCAA tourney game. ...wait for it...in a comparable league. Your argument is equating Marquette’s program with the program and league of Hofstra. Wright made the Sweet 16 his 4th season. He then made it 12 out of the next 13 seasons, 13/14 overall. He has won 23 NCAA tourney games in that time.

Krzyzewski? Again, 4th season at Duke he won NCAA game. Now you are comparing Marquette to...wait for it...Army. No sale.

Krzyzewski has won 98 NCAA games at Duke, making the tourney 34 of 35 straight seasons.

With respect to Hofstra and Army, I will be using the results of Villanova, Duke. What you could have said is that it took those two coaches 4 seasons to make the NCAA’s at Villanova and Duke. That would have been a better strategy. The new ACC network which begins this week will be airing a program entitled “The class that saved Coach K” referring to the mid 80’s group that made the 1986 NCAA Finals. It took both of these two coaches a few years to get it going. Thus far it has already taken Wojo longer. And, when those other coaches did get it going, they did at a very high level annually for a long time.

[TedBaxter]

This doesn't surprise me...you're one of the people I 100% see being "excited" about this class, no matter who they end up landing. All seashells and balloons in some people's worlds I guess. They could land a kid ranked 225 and after the announcement of his commit, you'd be excited, even if it meant they missed out on Suggs, Dawson, Nix, Burnett etc.

You and I have different impressions on recruiting at Marquette and there's nothing wrong with that.  You want the best and most highest regarded players and I have a more cautious look and think if Marquette gets 2 rotation ready guys in a class along with 1-2 less ready players who can develop over the 3-4 years, that's how MU has to build.

I'm not sure who MU watched most this summer, but I do know from reports that Justin Lewis and RJ Davis were focused on and heard that MU watched Ighodaro close to every game.  If they landed all 3 of these players, I would call it a very good November class.

[Its DJOver]

You and I have different impressions on recruiting at Marquette and there's nothing wrong with that.  You want the best and most highest regarded players and I have a more cautious look and think if Marquette gets 2 rotation ready guys in a class along with 1-2 less ready players who can develop over the 3-4 years, that's how MU has to build.

I'm not sure who MU watched most this summer, but I do know from reports that Justin Lewis and RJ Davis were focused on and heard that MU watched Ighodaro close to every game.  If they landed all 3 of these players, I would call it a very good November class.

I think this is a pretty solid assessment, and I also think some people forget that Symir was originally a 2020 target.  So if based on our original target list we land; top 100 Symir, top 100 Lewis, top 100 Davis, and borderline top 100 Osa that would be a pretty solid core, even if we took a chance on a lower ranked player as well.  I also think that looking at the class as a whole right now is kinda like judging an entire game at halftime,  as Herm pointed out, dominoes are starting to fall.  Let's judge where we land once they all do.

[bilsu]

It took Jay Wright 4 years to win an NCAA tourney game. ...wait for it...in a comparable league. Your argument is equating Marquette’s program with the program and league of Hofstra. Wright made the Sweet 16 his 4th season. He then made it 12 out of the next 13 seasons, 13/14 overall. He has won 23 NCAA tourney games in that time.

Krzyzewski? Again, 4th season at Duke he won NCAA game. Now you are comparing Marquette to...wait for it...Army. No sale.

Krzyzewski has won 98 NCAA games at Duke, making the tourney 34 of 35 straight seasons.

With respect to Hofstra and Army, I will be using the results of Villanova, Duke. What you could have said is that it took those two coaches 4 seasons to make the NCAA’s at Villanova and Duke. That would have been a better strategy. The new ACC network which begins this week will be airing a program entitled “The class that saved Coach K” referring to the mid 80’s group that made the 1986 NCAA Finals. It took both of these two coaches a few years to get it going. Thus far it has already taken Wojo longer. And, when those other coaches did get it going, they did at a very high level annually for a long time.

I think what you are failing to recognize is that Wright came to Villanova with head coaching experience. Wojo had none when he came to MU. Wojo should be compared to O'Neal and Crean. Both of them started with MU being their first head coaching job. I think Crean had 4 NCAA wins (0-0-0-4-0) and O'Neal had 2 at 5 years (0-0-0-0-2). Of course 2 wins was enough for O'Neal to jump ship. Maybe Wojo would also of left if he won 2 NCAA games two years ago.

[Cheeks]

You’re including Jay Wright at Hofstra and Coach K at Army.  I think his point still stands.  These are not tourney schools.  It’s like saying Bill Self didn’t win a tourney game until year 11.  And his first 10 years he coached at western Illinois.  It’s a bush argument. At best

Yes, because they got their coaching chops at smaller schools while Wojo didn’t....something you want to ignore for some reason.  MU chose to go with an assistant, and in doing so you have to also except that they come in never running their own program and cutting their teeth for the first time at high D1.  It amazes me when people compare a coach like ours to Wright or others that were allowed to cut their teeth elsewhere, but then when someone actually does a real comparison to same coach now all of a sudden their early years are to be ignored.  Classic, and talk about bush league....that’s exactly what you are doing. You are picking and choosing what part of Wright’s resume you want to use and not allowing our current coach to have the same on the job training or years under his belt.  How convenient.

And yes, I am taking Few, K, Wright, Izzo, etc, etc words on the tournament as a crapshoot over yours, Lenny’s or anyone else here....they have lived it....you haven’ and you never will.

[GoldenWarrior11]

In past 24 hours, Hoggard was predicted to MSU and Davis was predicted to Pittsburgh by multiple reporters on 247. 

[Cheeks]

No. You provided those names because they are high profile and if we are OK with some basic dishonesty (including their records at places who just don't win NCAA tournament games) they appear to bolster a patently ridiculous narrative.

You're all about apples to apples and are comparing Hofstra and Army with Marquette? Sheesh.

It’s now dishonest to use facts of where they coached and the years it took to win a game.  Interesting, so coaches that do get wins at places like Hofstra earlier in their careers are clearly better than Wright...to use your logic.  Wow...just wow.

I provided the names because they have lived the tournament and know what it actually takes, not some 70 year old that never will in his lifetime or dreams who has zero experience coaching D1 basketball, playing D1 basketball or participating in the NCAA men’s college basketball tournament outside bitching about it and filling out a bracket.  Simply put, their words mean more than yours ever will on this subject....more than yours, Johnny’s, everyone else here combined.  The greatest hilarity in all of this is if Buzz made the crapshoot comment, you would bend over so fast in your complete admiration and worship of him that it would become one of pillars of life.