Why JJJ has to play 25+ minutes per game

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And BTW - Please stop with the dumb ass argument about Florida and them having 7, Top 100 players - they are 34 in Pomeory's rankings.  Us?  104 - just 70 spots worse.  Just like Brew offered up Xavier, Michigan State, Ohio State, Georgetown and other teams having similar Top 100 talent - they are performing in the Top 30 teams - us?  

I don't think I brought up the Florida example in this thread....so this is interesting placement. But I'll bite. You miss, or ignore, the point of the argument. You were arguing that a team without a dominant PG, only 10 scholarship players to start the season, 8 scholarship players to finish the season, no players taller than 6"7 to start the season, with a first year coach, with only 2 players on the roster who average more than 13.5 mpg last season, that was picked to finish 9th in the Big East should be expected to get into the NCAA tournament because they have 7 former top 100 players on their roster. You gave no other proof as to why they should be in the NCAA other than the fact they have 7 former top 100 players.

So if a team with as many things working against it as Marquette has can be expected to make the tournament because of 7 former top 100 players, than the University of Florida, with 8 former top 100 players and none of the above issues, should be a shoe in to be a final four contender. Or at least a top 25 team. They have a dominant PG (or at least should be in your eyes because he was the number 7 player in the country coming out of high school), they started with 11 scholarship players, they had no transfers/injuries/off the court issues, have 6 players taller than 6'7 on the roster, have a future HOF coach, have 3 players on the roster who averaged more than 13.5 mpg last season, and were picked to finish in the top 10 teams in the country. Plus, they have their 8 former top 100s, two of who were top 10, four of whom were ranked higher than our highest player.

But Florida isn't a top 25 like your POV would suggest. They are 12-9, better than us. But they are a fringe bubble team at this point. With all the top high school recruits and other advantages they had on us, they should be doing much better no?

What I did notice is that both teams were lacking players who had significant playing time the season before. Florida only had three who averaged more than 13.5, MU had 2. Maybe that is more relevant than their former top 100 recruits?

The point of the argument is you can't just say "We have X number of former top 100 players, we should be great!" There are many other more relevant factors that need to be taken into account. Teams with tons of former top 100 players sometimes suck. Teams with one or two former top 100 players are sometimes great (see Butler). You  scream over and over "7 top 100 players" but than you conveniently ignore all of the other issues that I bring up above. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgement of those other factors that may be holding back our team.

[MuMark]

I still can't believe that Cords didn't hire Ners to coach the team.....I mean what was he thinking? All of our problems would be solved and we would be 15-6 instead of 10-11.

[MU82]

I don't think I brought up the Florida example in this thread....so this is interesting placement. But I'll bite. You miss, or ignore, the point of the argument. You were arguing that a team without a dominant PG, only 10 scholarship players to start the season, 8 scholarship players to finish the season, no players taller than 6"7 to start the season, with a first year coach, with only 2 players on the roster who average more than 13.5 mpg last season, that was picked to finish 9th in the Big East should be expected to get into the NCAA tournament because they have 7 former top 100 players on their roster. You gave no other proof as to why they should be in the NCAA other than the fact they have 7 former top 100 players.

So if a team with as many things working against it as Marquette has can be expected to make the tournament because of 7 former top 100 players, than the University of Florida, with 8 former top 100 players and none of the above issues, should be a shoe in to be a final four contender. Or at least a top 25 team. They have a dominant PG (or at least should be in your eyes because he was the number 7 player in the country coming out of high school), they started with 11 scholarship players, they had no transfers/injuries/off the court issues, have 6 players taller than 6'7 on the roster, have a future HOF coach, have 3 players on the roster who averaged more than 13.5 mpg last season, and were picked to finish in the top 10 teams in the country. Plus, they have their 8 former top 100s, two of who were top 10, four of whom were ranked higher than our highest player.

But Florida isn't a top 25 like your POV would suggest. They are 12-9, better than us. But they are a fringe bubble team at this point. With all the top high school recruits and other advantages they had on us, they should be doing much better no?

What I did notice is that both teams were lacking players who had significant playing time the season before. Florida only had three who averaged more than 13.5, MU had 2. Maybe that is more relevant than their former top 100 recruits?

The point of the argument is you can't just say "We have X number of former top 100 players, we should be great!" There are many other more relevant factors that need to be taken into account. Teams with tons of former top 100 players sometimes suck. Teams with one or two former top 100 players are sometimes great (see Butler). You  scream over and over "7 top 100 players" but than you conveniently ignore all of the other issues that I bring up above. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgement of those other factors that may be holding back our team.

"And stop with the dumb ass argument," says Ners. "Dumb ass arguments are MY domain!"

[ATL MU Warrior]

You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.

You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.

Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.

I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.

You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".

You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.

The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.  

You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.

I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.

You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.

You won't be missed, I promise.

Holy hell this is awesome.  Well done.

[We R Final Four]

Can you say #NersIsNuts #SeekHelp

This made me laugh.

"Can you saaaayyyy #LETITGO ?

[GooooMarquette]

You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.

You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.

Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.

I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.

You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".

You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.

The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.  

You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.

I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.

You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.

You won't be missed, I promise.

This is the most spot-on post I have seen in a long time.  It's unfortunate when one poster's ego can derail an entire board like this.

[tower912]

Canned goods and ammo slamming it home with authority. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I stand by my comments on Dickie Simpkins.  When something so out of left field begins after 25 games of saying virtually nothing - it reeks as odd to say the least.

For someone who criticize others for commenting on basketball when they didn't play in high school, this is hilarious.

[connie]

You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.

You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.

Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.

I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.

You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".

You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.

The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.  

You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.

I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.

You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.

You won't be missed, I promise.

You sir, have obviously been corrupted by whatever cabal it is that doesn't want the rest of us to know the truth.  Well done.

[LloydsLegs]

outstanding

[79Warrior]

Canned goods and ammo slamming it home with authority. 

Indeed. Well said by canned. Hard to believe one idiot evokes this, sad but true.

[forgetful]

JJJ is a hot topic of debate here.  If I said there is a player on the roster who would give us this production if they were given 25+ minutes per game per night - would anybody in their right mind say he doesn't deserve 25+?

6 games of 25+ minutes against 4 of our Top 6 wins for the year:  TN Martin, OSU (loss), NJIT, ASU, North Dakota, Providence.

Averages:

29.3 minutes per game.  13.6ppg.  4.3 rebounds per game.  2.5 assists per game. 3.0 steals per game  2.6 turnovers per game.

Like most talented players, it helps when you get long stretches of run/playing time.  The above alone are all that needs to be said for what can be done to improve this team.  Does it mean every game JJJ plays 25+ he'll post the above stats?  Of course not.  But - 6 games isn't a meaningless sample size.  He's a sophomore.  Let's get him more experience.  Perhaps along the way we start to win some of these games.  Furthermore, it likely helps JJJ feel positive about his future at MU and under Wojo/hopefully eliminates any thoughts of transferring.

Of those 6 games, only Ohio St and Providence are in the top 100 in the RPI.  His averages in those games:

7 PPG, 24% shooting, 0% from 3, 7 TOs.

The other 4 games average RPI 181.

17 PPG, 55% shooting, 31% from 3, 9 TOs.

If your point is that when he plays 25 minutes a game against the bottom half of the NCAA, he plays well, but when he does it against the top 100, he is bad.  You would have a lot more people that agree with you. 

[Texas Western]

I would be delighted to see JJJ get the opportunity to play 25 plus minutes per game.   It is very difficult for anyone to play in the mode they are playing him in. JJJ plays an aggressive attacking style and that is what makes him effective .   When he gets in the flow lots of good things happen. Yes I recognize his shot needs improvement, but he still adds value in other ways. I thought the Providence game was a great example, we wouldn't have won that without him.  We need this kid in the game as much as possible as he is a legitimate threat to take it to the rack.   At the very least his playing segments should be longer to give him the opportunity to make good things happen.

The current rotation is not working.

10-11 2-7  is not acceptable

[HutchwasClutch]

Texas Western -

So if you were MU AD or President, would you pull the plug on Wojo now?  Give him until the end of the season?  End of next season?  What exactly.

[Lighthouse 84]

I would be delighted to see JJJ get the opportunity to play 25 plus minutes per game.   It is very difficult for anyone to play in the mode they are playing him in. JJJ plays an aggressive attacking style and that is what makes him effective .   When he gets in the flow lots of good things happen. Yes I recognize his shot needs improvement, but he still adds value in other ways. I thought the Providence game was a great example, we wouldn't have won that without him.  We need this kid in the game as much as possible as he is a legitimate threat to take it to the rack.   At the very least his playing segments should be longer to give him the opportunity to make good things happen.

The current rotation is not working. Le

10-11 2-7  is not acceptable

TW, can you tell Scoop your relationship to JjJ?  Family member?  Former coach? Personal friend?  Other?  I think it makes a big difference to know if you're someone like a family member or just a zealous Warrior fan.

[Texas Western]

Texas Western -

So if you were MU AD or President, would you pull the plug on Wojo now?  Give him until the end of the season?  End of next season?  What exactly.

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

[HutchwasClutch]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

You are going to wish you never posted garbage like this, because it's forever documented after Wojo gets this train rolling again. 

And it really sickens me the way you attack Wojo's character, everything I've heard and read about him is he's of high character and integrity. 

[79Warrior]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

You clearly are not a donor that matters because they are firmly behind Wojo. I will pass along your inane comments to Dr Lovell at dinner in LA next week. I am sure he will be amused.

[mattyv1908]

Of those 6 games, only Ohio St and Providence are in the top 100 in the RPI.  His averages in those games:

7 PPG, 24% shooting, 0% from 3, 7 TOs.

The other 4 games average RPI 181.

17 PPG, 55% shooting, 31% from 3, 9 TOs.

If your point is that when he plays 25 minutes a game against the bottom half of the NCAA, he plays well, but when he does it against the top 100, he is bad.  You would have a lot more people that agree with you. 

Forgetful, I completely understand what you're saying (and who you're saying it to), but in all honesty you could make the same argument regarding Luke Fischer.

[brewcity77]

Forgetful, I completely understand what you're saying (and who you're saying it to), but in all honesty you could make the same argument regarding Luke Fischer.

However we have no other options at center. We do have other wings.

[jesmu84]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

Gotta be the 97th time you've said something like this and presented it as fact with zero evidence. Good job.

[We R Final Four]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

Buzz character > Wojo character.

You are the only person in the universe with this belief.

[GGGG]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

You.  Are.  Full.  Of.  It.

[GGGG]

Gotta be the 97th time you've said something like this and presented it as fact with zero evidence. Good job.

Remember what his motivations are.  (He is no long-term fan of the program.  Flat out lying.)

[Lighthouse 84]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

I think part of the reason MU hired Wojo was because they knew the culture he'd create.  He's going to create a culture of not bringing in recruits the University doesn't agree on, he's not going to accept anything less than the players giving max effort and he's going to bring in great recruiting classes.  I'll be very surprised if, at the time Wojo leaves MU for whatever reason and whenever that might be, that anyone calls him ANY of the names Tanned Tommy and Bert were called when they left (shifty, slimy, snake oil salesman, etc.).

You never answered my question TW.  What's your relationship to JjJ?  Where does your zealousness for JjJ come from?