MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: NersEllenson on February 01, 2015, 05:38:55 PM
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JJJ is a hot topic of debate here. If I said there is a player on the roster who would give us this production if they were given 25+ minutes per game per night - would anybody in their right mind say he doesn't deserve 25+?
6 games of 25+ minutes against 4 of our Top 6 wins for the year: TN Martin, OSU (loss), NJIT, ASU, North Dakota, Providence.
Averages:
29.3 minutes per game. 13.6ppg. 4.3 rebounds per game. 2.5 assists per game. 3.0 steals per game 2.6 turnovers per game.
Like most talented players, it helps when you get long stretches of run/playing time. The above alone are all that needs to be said for what can be done to improve this team. Does it mean every game JJJ plays 25+ he'll post the above stats? Of course not. But - 6 games isn't a meaningless sample size. He's a sophomore. Let's get him more experience. Perhaps along the way we start to win some of these games. Furthermore, it likely helps JJJ feel positive about his future at MU and under Wojo/hopefully eliminates any thoughts of transferring.
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Go back to the Butler and watch JJJs D. He attempted to make a steal 3 trips in a row and got schooled because of it on all 3. His offensive production does not make up for this. Giving JJJ more minutes doesn't necessarily equate to more offensive production, but it absolutely will lead to defensive deficiencies.....and more fouls to our bigs when they need to help to cover his mistakes.
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OK.
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Most overrated 27th best player in his class I've ever seen, at least this year
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But not winning with the seniors give them all more pt time
Wilson Duane
JJJ
Cohen
Taylor
Fisher
Why not
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But not winning with the seniors give them all more pt time
Wilson Duane
JJJ
Cohen
Taylor
Fisher
Why not
We basically do that but Derrick and carlino are gonna play somtimes
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We basically do that but Derrick and carlino are gonna play somtimes
They play 60 minutes a game make it 20
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Go back to the Butler and watch JJJs D. He attempted to make a steal 3 trips in a row and got schooled because of it on all 3. His offensive production does not make up for this. Giving JJJ more minutes doesn't necessarily equate to more offensive production, but it absolutely will lead to defensive deficiencies.....and more fouls to our bigs when they need to help to cover his mistakes.
Except Bama's advanced stats show our defense was MUCH better as a team when JJJ was playing more minutes. I'll submit back to you this: Against Butler, Wojo briefly went to a 1-3-1 zone. As I recall he only did it for 2 possessions, both with JJJ in the game - both resulted in turnovers. I need to go back and watch the game again and see how our Man D played. Still not a fan of it for this team.
I get that to get steals at times you gamble and get out of position - yet I still like aggressive play. Hard to argue with a guy who averages 3.0 steals per game in games played more than 25 per game.
OK.
LOL - Figured you'd shoot a blank trying to make any point other than your continued efforts to champion why Derrick Wilson should play more than 30+ minutes per game. Sure wish Derrick would put up some numbers comparable to the above - the team would be about 16-5 if that were the case.
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Except Bama's advanced stats show our defense was MUCH better as a team when JJJ was playing more minutes. I'll submit back to you this: Against Butler, Wojo briefly went to a 1-3-1 zone. As I recall he only did it for 2 possessions, both with JJJ in the game - both resulted in turnovers. I need to go back and watch the game again and see how our Man D played. Still not a fan of it for this team.
I get that to get steals at times you gamble and get out of position - yet I still like aggressive play. Hard to argue with a guy who averages 3.0 steals per game in games played more than 25 per game.
LOL - Figured you'd shoot a blank trying to make any point other than your continued efforts to champion why Derrick Wilson should play more than 30+ minutes per game. Sure wish Derrick would put up some numbers comparable to the above - the team would be about 16-5 if that were the case.
Ners--your agenda is clear. Complain all you want. It's just shocking to me that Wojo doesn't get it....but you do.
I have witnessed several occasions When JJJ doesn't box out on the weak side and has no idea what he is supposed to do and the opponents shot goes in. You know what your stats say? That he did absolutely nothing wrong---when in fact he did everything wrong.
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I'm pretty sure it was JjJ who let the rebound fall to the guy laying on the floor. No box out, no aggression going after the ball.
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His defense isn't stellar, but we have played a lot of zone defense. So this isn't much of a glaring issue to me.
The problem I have with JJJ is he takes some bad shots. Sometimes goes 1 on 3 or takes a contested 3 early in the shot clock.
I think he's going to play more tentative since Wojo has a quick leash for him. I do find it hard to believe he was so horrendous in practice mid-year that as a coach you can't have him give one of our guys who's gassed a quick breather. Maybe he practices like Iverson, I'm not there to see it.
The one thing about JJJ and Sandy Cohen, they've proven to be streak scorers. JJJ has been SOTG twice this year, and when things are going right for him, he can score in bunches. That type of attack could greatly help our team who struggles to hit 60 points in conference. I think both of those guys need an extended 5-6 minute run in the 1st half to see if its their night. When they get 2 minute stints, its hard to get into the flow of the game and make that one shot before getting yanked.
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His defense isn't stellar, but we have played a lot of zone defense. So this isn't much of a glaring issue to me.
The problem I have with JJJ is he takes some bad shots. Sometimes goes 1 on 3 or takes a contested 3 early in the shot clock.
I think he's going to play more tentative since Wojo has a quick leash for him. I do find it hard to believe he was so horrendous in practice mid-year that as a coach you can't have him give one of our guys who's gassed a quick breather. Maybe he practices like Iverson, I'm not there to see it.
The one thing about JJJ and Sandy Cohen, they've proven to be streak scorers. JJJ has been SOTG twice this year, and when things are going right for him, he can score in bunches. That type of attack could greatly help our team who struggles to hit 60 points in conference. I think both of those guys need an extended 5-6 minute run in the 1st half to see if its their night. When they get 2 minute stints, its hard to get into the flow of the game and make that one shot before getting yanked.
JJJ more often than not gets yanked for his brutal D.....when that is coupled with poor decisions on the offensive end---it's an easy call for Wojo.
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JJJ more often than not gets yanked for his brutal D.....when that is coupled with poor decisions on the offensive end---it's an easy call for Wojo.
We'd have to pull a lot of our guys then for the same reason. Luke doesn't move his feet well defensively and puts guys on the charity stripe because of it. Duane Wilson forces a 3 pointer and then fouls an 88% FT shooter 90 feet away form the basket during crunch time. Carlino gets blown by defensively consistently (Nebraska Omaha guards had their way with him).
I'm more than OK with guys getting pulled for bad defense and mental blunders, but Wojo isn't consistent about it.
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JJJ is a hot topic of debate here. If I said there is a player on the roster who would give us this production if they were given 25+ minutes per game per night - would anybody in their right mind say he doesn't deserve 25+?
6 games of 25+ minutes against 4 of our Top 6 wins for the year: TN Martin, OSU (loss), NJIT, ASU, North Dakota, Providence.
Averages:
29.3 minutes per game. 13.6ppg. 4.3 rebounds per game. 2.5 assists per game. 3.0 steals per game 2.6 turnovers per game.
Like most talented players, it helps when you get long stretches of run/playing time. The above alone are all that needs to be said for what can be done to improve this team. Does it mean every game JJJ plays 25+ he'll post the above stats? Of course not. But - 6 games isn't a meaningless sample size. He's a sophomore. Let's get him more experience. Perhaps along the way we start to win some of these games. Furthermore, it likely helps JJJ feel positive about his future at MU and under Wojo/hopefully eliminates any thoughts of transferring.
Are you really doing this again? Unproven guys who play terribly more often than not are not given long leashes by any coaches in any sports. Period. They either earn them in practice or short spurts in games or they don't earn/get them at all. Their leashes are extended when they play well. Of course JJJ has better numbers when he plays 25 minutes - when he plays 15 decent ones he gets an extra 10. When he plays lousy for 15 he doesn't get any more.
You might as well argue that the reason a starting pitcher is struggling is because the manager is taking him out too soon. His numbers, you say, are much better when the manager gives him a long leash, pitches him 7+ innings. Of course they are, but do you keep a guy in for 7 who gives up 5 runs in the first 3 innings? If he's Nolan Ryan, maybe. If he's your usually unreliable 5th starter, no way. But on those rare occasions when he has his command you do.
Performance results in playing time. Not the other way around. Why do I think you feel that you're still upset about not getting a long enough leash yourself?
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+/- from yesterday's game:
Cohen: +4
Carlino: 0
Duane: 0
STJ: -2
Luke: -2
Derrick: -3
Juan: -8
JJJ: -11
+/- is an imperfect statistic because it matters who you play with...but still.
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For a team with as much divide as some posters would suggest, they all seem to get along really well in real life and on social media. I think we all just have to relax. As some people on here say, respect the process. I'm really a badger fan?!
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+/- from yesterday's game:
Cohen: +4
Carlino: 0
Duane: 0
STJ: -2
Luke: -2
Derrick: -3
Juan: -8
JJJ: -11
+/- is an imperfect statistic because it matters who you play with...but still.
JJ was not on the floor after 6:39 to go in regulation. And, yes, it is a rather suspect stat in isolation. JJ had a relatively decent game albeit certainly not perfect. But that's true of every guy yesterday and most days.
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Are you really doing this again? Unproven guys who play terribly more often than not are not given long leashes by any coaches in any sports. Period. They either earn them in practice or short spurts in games or they don't earn/get them at all. Their leashes are extended when they play well. Of course JJJ has better numbers when he plays 25 minutes - when he plays 15 decent ones he gets an extra 10. When he plays lousy for 15 he doesn't get any more.
You might as well argue that the reason a starting pitcher is struggling is because the manager is taking him out too soon. His numbers, you say, are much better when the manager gives him a long leash, pitches him 7+ innings. Of course they are, but do you keep a guy in for 7 who gives up 5 runs in the first 3 innings? If he's Nolan Ryan, maybe. If he's your usually unreliable 5th starter, no way. But on those rare occasions when he has his command you do.
Performance results in playing time. Not the other way around. Why do I think you feel that you're still upset about not getting a long enough leash yourself?
I can't explain it to you Lenny - as I know basketball wasn't your game - and I don't mean that like a jack ass. All I can tell you is that just because you come into a game and have a turnover, and miss your first 2 shots - perhaps they were good shots too - it doesn't mean you are going to suck for a whole game.
Trying to use a baseball analogy to compare a starting pitcher to a basketball player is simply not a good comparison.
The numbers don't lie - give JJJ 25+ and he'll produce - and against decent teams.
And performance results in playing time?? What in God's green earth did Derrick Wilson's performance last year indicate he should be leading the team in playing time?
Lastly, the length of leash has varied greatly for Wojo - which is a big beef I have with him. Duane Wilson has gotten a VERY long leash. Juan at times has. Derrick has. Hell, the whole team has - JJJ rarely gets a long leash - and players recognize this and it doesn't bode well for a player's attitude.
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Ners--your agenda is clear. Complain all you want. It's just shocking to me that Wojo doesn't get it....but you do.
I have witnessed several occasions When JJJ doesn't box out on the weak side and has no idea what he is supposed to do and the opponents shot goes in. You know what your stats say? That he did absolutely nothing wrong---when in fact he did everything wrong.
Please. The poster was a HS basketball star. You just don't get it. Neither diid Buzz. Neither does Wojo. You need to play at the H S level to really understand.
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Please. The poster was a HS basketball star. You just don't get it. Neither diid Buzz. Neither does Wojo. You need to play at the H S level to really understand.
You impressed with Wojo's coaching thus far? Taking Duane out for a critical 4 minute stretch in GTown game? Yesterday's meltdown? Losing Burton and Dawson?
I have no doubt you were a great fan in the stands cheering your high school team on to victory 79. You are a gem.
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I can't explain it to you Lenny - as I know basketball wasn't your game - and I don't mean that like a jack ass. All I can tell you is that just because you come into a game and have a turnover, and miss your first 2 shots - perhaps they were good shots too - it doesn't mean you are going to suck for a whole game.
Saying that you can't explain a simple concept that a two year old could grasp is insulting. Of course I'm well aware that if you come into a game and have a turnover and miss your first two shots it doesn't mean you're going to suck the whole game. Conversely, if you come into a game and have a steal and hit your first 2 shots it doesn't mean you're going to be a star the whole game. I get that. But suppose for a moment that you have a player on your bench who is a) your most turnover prone player, b) given to frequent defensive lapses and c) the worst 3 point shooter in Big East conference games in the entire freakin' history of the league (with more than 20 attempts). And suppose when you put him in the game he turns it over, loses his man and gives up a lay up and shoots (and of course misses, since that's all he does) a three in his first five minutes. Way more often than not that's what happens with JJJ in games against decent competition. And he gets pulled, ends the game 0-4, 0-2 from three with 2 turnovers in 15 minutes. But, on those rare occasions that he's 3-5, only 0-1 from 3 with maybe 1 turnover and an assist or a steal he "EARNS" an extra 10 minutes. Of course his numbers are better with the extra playing time - his initial 15 minutes of relative success have assured that. That's just math.
He's on a short leash because he is, based on performance, the worst of our five backcourt players. Offensively, defensively, basketball IQ-wise, any way you want to measure, the worst - and it is not close. On top of it he's at best a goofball and at worst an attitude problem. If that's the guy you would hitch your wagon to as a coach then I don't know what to say. Coaches (in every sport) want players they can trust. JJJ is the antithesis of that. You may know basketball but if you don't know that you don't know coaching it or any other sport.
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I can't explain it to you Lenny - as I know basketball wasn't your game - and I don't mean that like a jack ass.
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Well, you do sound like a jackass.
I have posed this question a couple other ways, and I'll try again:
If we are to defer to you because you played more high school basketball than we did, shouldn't you defer to Wojo, who was a multiple-year starter at Duke? And if Dickey Simpkins, who won three NBA titles with the Bulls after an outstanding career at Providence, thinks Derrick is a fine point guard, why should what a former high-school player says have more relevance?
You can't have it both ways, Ners. You can't be smarter than non-ex-prepsters because you played high school hoops and also be smarter than guys who, unlike you, were good enough to play college and pro hoops.
Because if you are smarter than the guys who played college and pro hoops, it stands to reason that those who didn't play high school hoops very possibly are smarter than you.
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Well, you do sound like a jackass.
I have posed this question a couple other ways, and I'll try again:
If we are to defer to you because you played more high school basketball than we did, shouldn't you defer to Wojo, who was a multiple-year starter at Duke? And if Dickey Simpkins, who won three NBA titles with the Bulls after an outstanding career at Providence, thinks Derrick is a fine point guard, why should what a former high-school player says have more relevance?
You can't have it both ways, Ners. You can't be smarter than non-ex-prepsters because you played high school hoops and also be smarter than guys who, unlike you, were good enough to play college and pro hoops.
Because if you are smarter than the guys who played college and pro hoops, it stands to reason that those who didn't play high school hoops very possibly are smarter than you.
Nobody here has to "defer to me." Guys on the other side of the issue make their points, are convicted in their convictions, and don't back down from them either. They feel they are right. I feel I'm right on the matter with regard to my opinions.
Some here want to defer to the "I have to believe the opinions of guys who are paid millions of dollars to make better decisions or know better than you." Sure - that is a very valid point. However, because you are paid millions of dollars to make decisions does NOT absolve one of making bad decisions.
We just saw it in the Super Bowl. Saw it in Green Bay's game against Seattle. At the end of the day the quality of a coach, and their decisions - is measured in the team's won/loss record. Buzz turned in a crap performance last season. And so far, quite frankly, Wojo isn't doing all that well contrary to what the "slurpers" here want to believe.
While the good soldier mentality is admirable many times in life, and supporting your leader is noble it doesn't mean their leadership can't be called into question - particularly when the "organization" isn't ultimately performing well under their leadership.
As for respecting someone who has played the game - yes - I'll always respect their opinion more than guys who didn't. And, obviously there are guys here who disagree with me that have at least played the game at the high school level. And yes, I believe guys who have played the game more, and at a higher level than me, ultimately know more about the game as a whole than do I. However, that doesn't mean that I HAVE to agree with their conclusions about a player's merits. Disagreements prevail among "experts" as to a player's talent/potential frequently in sports at the highest levels among highly paid professionals.
And as for Dickie Simpkins - If you are so incredibly naive as to not realize the MU PR Machine went to work on Dickie -I don't know what to tell you. The guy called about 25 MU games and never once had much of anything to say about Derrick. Then out of left field one game, Dickie just starts gushing and slobbering all over Derrick in such an over the top way - it actually lost all credibility.
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JJJ is a hot topic of debate here.
Only among 4-5 posters.
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JJJ is a hot topic of debate here.
Actually he's not. 99% of Marquette fans believe he's inconsistent at best, and terrible at basketball at worst.
Furthermore, it likely helps JJJ feel positive about his future at MU and under Wojo/hopefully eliminates any thoughts of transferring.
If JjJ transfers because he's not happy with the playing time he's earning, he only need look in a mirror for the source of the problem. I will wish him luck, thank him for his service, and never think about him again. Fortunately, I don't believe JjJ is like that. I think he is a hard working kid who will work ass off during the offseason to get better. Hopefully, he can have a Vander-like improvement between his Sophomore and Junior campaigns. I know Wojo is having him fix that awful shooting form he has. That is a process that takes time.
You are the only person I know who thinks more minutes leads to better production. It is basketball 101 that a player's effectiveness drops the longer he plays in a single game. The reason JjJ's stats are better when he gets 25+ minutes? It's because he earned them in those games! He was playing well so he got more minutes. Production leads to more minutes, not the other way around.
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JJJ more often than not gets yanked for his brutal D.....when that is coupled with poor decisions on the offensive end---it's an easy call for Wojo.
Twice in the second half, JJJ gambled for a steal, didn't get it and Butler immediately scored on a lay-up as a result. In a nip-tuck game with little margin for error, those things can't happen.
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Nobody here has to "defer to me." Guys on the other side of the issue make their points, are convicted in their convictions, and don't back down from them either. They feel they are right. I feel I'm right on the matter with regard to my opinions.
Some here want to defer to the "I have to believe the opinions of guys who are paid millions of dollars to make better decisions or know better than you." Sure - that is a very valid point. However, because you are paid millions of dollars to make decisions does NOT absolve one of making bad decisions.
We just saw it in the Super Bowl. Saw it in Green Bay's game against Seattle. At the end of the day the quality of a coach, and their decisions - is measured in the team's won/loss record. Buzz turned in a crap performance last season. And so far, quite frankly, Wojo isn't doing all that well contrary to what the "slurpers" here want to believe.
While the good soldier mentality is admirable many times in life, and supporting your leader is noble it doesn't mean their leadership can't be called into question - particularly when the "organization" isn't ultimately performing well under their leadership.
As for respecting someone who has played the game - yes - I'll always respect their opinion more than guys who didn't. And, obviously there are guys here who disagree with me that have at least played the game at the high school level. And yes, I believe guys who have played the game more, and at a higher level than me, ultimately know more about the game as a whole than do I. However, that doesn't mean that I HAVE to agree with their conclusions about a player's merits. Disagreements prevail among "experts" as to a player's talent/potential frequently in sports at the highest levels among highly paid professionals.
And as for Dickie Simpkins - If you are so incredibly naive as to not realize the MU PR Machine went to work on Dickie -I don't know what to tell you. The guy called about 25 MU games and never once had much of anything to say about Derrick. Then out of left field one game, Dickie just starts gushing and slobbering all over Derrick in such an over the top way - it actually lost all credibility.
Seriously? I mean, seriously? MU athletics department is in Simpkins' ear? That's what you're going with?
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And as for Dickie Simpkins - If you are so incredibly naive as to not realize the MU PR Machine went to work on Dickie -I don't know what to tell you. The guy called about 25 MU games and never once had much of anything to say about Derrick. Then out of left field one game, Dickie just starts gushing and slobbering all over Derrick in such an over the top way - it actually lost all credibility.
Bahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Now you are officially in my area of expertise. If you think college PR departments give a rat's arse about which players the announcers are complimenting, much less having any sort of sway over announcers, you are out of your mind. I mean wow.
Dickie loves Derrick because he sees him as "the heart and soul of our team." Derrick wasn't that last season. This season, he is. It wasn't out of the blue. It was a new season. Dickie saw what Derrick does for the team and likes it.
If you hear hoofprints, don't look for zebras. The simplest solution is usually the correct one.
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And as for Dickie Simpkins - If you are so incredibly naive as to not realize the MU PR Machine went to work on Dickie -I don't know what to tell you. The guy called about 25 MU games and never once had much of anything to say about Derrick. Then out of left field one game, Dickie just starts gushing and slobbering all over Derrick in such an over the top way - it actually lost all credibility.
Did you play PR in high school too?
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And as for Dickie Simpkins - If you are so incredibly naive as to not realize the MU PR Machine went to work on Dickie -I don't know what to tell you. The guy called about 25 MU games and never once had much of anything to say about Derrick. Then out of left field one game, Dickie just starts gushing and slobbering all over Derrick in such an over the top way - it actually lost all credibility.
I have a PR degree.
I've work professionally in the sports marketing and PR industry for over 15 years.
What you are saying is not possible, and that's not how things work. PR teams don't talk to basketball commentators and instruct them on what they should be saying... ESPECIALLY at the college level for a regular season game(s).
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I have a PR degree.
I've work professionally in the sports marketing and PR industry for over 15 years.
What you are saying is not possible, and that's not how things work. PR teams don't talk to basketball commentators and instruct them on what they should be saying... ESPECIALLY at the college level for a regular season game(s).
I think the mods need to rename Ners "Frozen" because he needs to:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/d5da0e81ae4716b9013a1606bfdd3355/tumblr_mxh4i2zyUn1qdsm1jo1_500.gif)
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JJJ is a hot topic of debate here. If I said there is a player on the roster who would give us this production if they were given 25+ minutes per game per night - would anybody in their right mind say he doesn't deserve 25+?
6 games of 25+ minutes against 4 of our Top 6 wins for the year: TN Martin, OSU (loss), NJIT, ASU, North Dakota, Providence.
Averages:
29.3 minutes per game. 13.6ppg. 4.3 rebounds per game. 2.5 assists per game. 3.0 steals per game 2.6 turnovers per game.
Like most talented players, it helps when you get long stretches of run/playing time. The above alone are all that needs to be said for what can be done to improve this team. Does it mean every game JJJ plays 25+ he'll post the above stats? Of course not. But - 6 games isn't a meaningless sample size. He's a sophomore. Let's get him more experience. Perhaps along the way we start to win some of these games. Furthermore, it likely helps JJJ feel positive about his future at MU and under Wojo/hopefully eliminates any thoughts of transferring.
Minutes are earned, not given. .
If JJJ wants to play 30mpg, then come early, stay late, watch extra film, get extra coaching, work on his weaknesses, and THEN take advantage of his opportunities and produce.
He'll get as many minutes as he can handle.
EXAMPLE: SANDY COHEN.
You often make simple concepts very complex.
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I have a PR degree.
I've work professionally in the sports marketing and PR industry for over 15 years.
What you are saying is not possible, and that's not how things work. PR teams don't talk to basketball commentators and instruct them on what they should be saying... ESPECIALLY at the college level for a regular season game(s).
But did you play high school basketball?
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Do we have to bring Puerto Rico into this chit?
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PR degree Is that related to Latino Studies?
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Actually he's not. 99% of Marquette fans believe he's inconsistent at best, and terrible at basketball at worst.
If JjJ transfers because he's not happy with the playing time he's earning, he only need look in a mirror for the source of the problem. I will wish him luck, thank him for his service, and never think about him again. Fortunately, I don't believe JjJ is like that. I think he is a hard working kid who will work ass off during the offseason to get better. Hopefully, he can have a Vander-like improvement between his Sophomore and Junior campaigns. I know Wojo is having him fix that awful shooting form he has. That is a process that takes time.
You are the only person I know who thinks more minutes leads to better production. It is basketball 101 that a player's effectiveness drops the longer he plays in a single game. The reason JjJ's stats are better when he gets 25+ minutes? It's because he earned them in those games! He was playing well so he got more minutes. Production leads to more minutes, not the other way around.
Do you not find it odd that JJJ's numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY better when he plays 25+ minutes?
Being on the court - no player is more evidence of this than your Derrick Wilson - is by default alone going to lead to you getting some hollow stats in the way of rebounds and assists. Period. The more you are on the floor, the more you produce.
But yes, a player with a high usage rating, that also plays big minutes - generally their O-Rating (which is a reason why I don't care for an O-Rating as a stat) will come down as they are also putting themselves in the most positions to "fail." You are measuring effectiveness solely by O-Rating to make the statement that a player's "effectiveness" drops the more minutes he plays. If this were the case then coaches should bench their star players as if they get too many minutes, their "effectiveness" would drop. LOL
Jake Thomas had a better O-Rating than Todd Mayo last year. Jake had a better O-Rating than Duane this year. Do you, or any of the others in your "circle of friends" think Jake Thomas is a better player than either Todd Mayo or Duane Wilson??
But of course the rub, as is always the case with guys like Derrick and Jake - They don't force action, rarely create anything for themselves or others - and this is why Pomeroy classifies them as either "Nearly Invisible," or "Limited Roles." (Yet they both were/are very visible and have MAJOR roles - in that they both play the most minutes on the team.)
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Do you not find it odd that JJJ's numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY better when he plays 25+ minutes?
No. Because as Wojo has demonstrated with Sandy Cohen, with better performance comes more minutes. Not the other way around.
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Do you not find it odd that JJJ's numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY better when he plays 25+ minutes?
Being on the court - no player is more evidence of this than your Derrick Wilson - is by default alone going to lead to you getting some hollow stats in the way of rebounds and assists. Period. The more you are on the floor, the more you produce.
But yes, a player with a high usage rating, that also plays big minutes - generally their O-Rating (which is a reason why I don't care for an O-Rating as a stat) will come down as they are also putting themselves in the most positions to "fail." You are measuring effectiveness solely by O-Rating to make the statement that a player's "effectiveness" drops the more minutes he plays. If this were the case then coaches should bench their star players as if they get too many minutes, their "effectiveness" would drop. LOL
Jake Thomas had a better O-Rating than Todd Mayo last year. Jake had a better O-Rating than Duane this year. Do you, or any of the others in your "circle of friends" think Jake Thomas is a better player than either Todd Mayo or Duane Wilson??
But of course the rub, as is always the case with guys like Derrick and Jake - They don't force action, rarely create anything for themselves or others - and this is why Pomeroy classifies them as either "Nearly Invisible," or "Limited Roles." (Yet they both were/are very visible and have MAJOR roles - in that they both play the most minutes on the team.)
I really don't find it odd at all. Because Wojo plays whoever is performing the best. He got his minutes because his production was good. You are the only one who has it backward.
And no, I wasn't just using O-rating. Per 40 stats also drop when you give a player more minutes. The more minutes a player has, the less effective they are. That is basketball 101. You have it backwards.
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I really don't find it odd at all. Because Wojo plays whoever is performing the best. He got his minutes because his production was good. You are the only one who has it backward.
And no, I wasn't just using O-rating. Per 40 stats also drop when you give a player more minutes. The more minutes a player has, the less effective they are. That is basketball 101. You have it backwards.
You totally have it wrong and backwards. You play talented guys max minutes...period...and live with their growing pains. Particularly when your VET gives you next to nothing.
I love how you and the others who champion Derrick completely disregard stats offered on JJJ's 6 games of getting more than 25 minutes, and just piss all over them. While you can't find anything even close to Derrick Wilson putting up these kind of numbers in any type of scenario at any point EVER in his career at MU. Why?? Because he isn't freaking capable. At least JJJ has shown you he IS capable of such production. And he's only a sophomore. Take the shackles off Wojo.
And as I've said, just because a guy comes in and perhaps misses his first two shots and might have a turnover - it doesn't mean he is going to be bad for a whole game. So, for JJJ - he goes into a game tight - knowing that basically if I don't make my first shot or two, have a turnover - I'm getting yanked. It leads to tight performance.
And BTW - Please stop with the dumb ass argument about Florida and them having 7, Top 100 players - they are 34 in Pomeory's rankings. Us? 104 - just 70 spots worse. Just like Brew offered up Xavier, Michigan State, Ohio State, Georgetown and other teams having similar Top 100 talent - they are performing in the Top 30 teams - us?
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Do you not find it odd that JJJ's numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY better when he plays 25+ minutes?
Being on the court - no player is more evidence of this than your Derrick Wilson - is by default alone going to lead to you getting some hollow stats in the way of rebounds and assists. Period. The more you are on the floor, the more you produce.
But yes, a player with a high usage rating, that also plays big minutes - generally their O-Rating (which is a reason why I don't care for an O-Rating as a stat) will come down as they are also putting themselves in the most positions to "fail." You are measuring effectiveness solely by O-Rating to make the statement that a player's "effectiveness" drops the more minutes he plays. If this were the case then coaches should bench their star players as if they get too many minutes, their "effectiveness" would drop. LOL
Jake Thomas had a better O-Rating than Todd Mayo last year. Jake had a better O-Rating than Duane this year. Do you, or any of the others in your "circle of friends" think Jake Thomas is a better player than either Todd Mayo or Duane Wilson??
But of course the rub, as is always the case with guys like Derrick and Jake - They don't force action, rarely create anything for themselves or others - and this is why Pomeroy classifies them as either "Nearly Invisible," or "Limited Roles." (Yet they both were/are very visible and have MAJOR roles - in that they both play the most minutes on the team.)
Pretty simple: When JJJ is playing very well, he earns more minutes and therefore his point totals are higher. The minutes are a result of his good play, not the cause.
Also, it's amusing (but not unexpected) that when Ners was proven completely wrong on the PR issue, he just conveniently ignored those posts.
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Then out of left field one game, Dickie just starts gushing and slobbering all over Derrick in such an over the top way - it actually lost all credibility.
I know. It's almost like when a 4th-string freshman guard who has the skills of your typical Liberty recruit has one moment in the sun and then some ex-high school jock spends the next 10 months trying to convince everybody that the 4th-stringer is a superstar in the making.
It strains all credibility.
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Pretty simple: When JJJ is playing very well, he earns more minutes and therefore his point totals are higher. The minutes are a result of his good play, not the cause.
Also, it's amusing (but not unexpected) that when Ners was proven completely wrong on the PR issue, he just conveniently ignored those posts.
I stand by my comments on Dickie Simpkins. When something so out of left field begins after 25 games of saying virtually nothing - it reeks as odd to say the least.
Also, i believe a new meme here needs to be "earns more minutes." LOL. Please, share with me what production on the floor you've seen from Derrick indicates he's "earned those minutes?"
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Fortunately, I don't believe JjJ is like that. I think he is a hard working kid who will work ass off during the offseason to get better. Hopefully, he can have a Vander-like improvement between his Sophomore and Junior campaigns. I know Wojo is having him fix that awful shooting form he has. That is a process that takes time.
Boy I hope you are right. If he lives up to his potential....
(wife prodding me and waking me up from a dream)
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If JjJ transfers because he's not happy with the playing time he's earning, he only need look in a mirror for the source of the problem. I will wish him luck, thank him for his service, and never think about him again. Fortunately, I don't believe JjJ is like that. I think he is a hard working kid who will work ass off during the offseason to get better. Hopefully, he can have a Vander-like improvement between his Sophomore and Junior campaigns. I know Wojo is having him fix that awful shooting form he has. That is a process that takes time.
Vander was a much better player as a sophomore than JJJ is. There is a reason Vander got 5 more mpg as a sophomore on a S16 team than JJJ is getting on a struggling team with only 8 scholarship players.
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I stand by my comments on Dickie Simpkins. When something so out of left field begins after 25 games of saying virtually nothing - it reeks as odd to say the least.
Also, i believe a new meme here needs to be "earns more minutes." LOL. Please, share with me what production on the floor you've seen from Derrick indicates he's "earned those minutes?"
You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.
You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.
Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.
I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.
You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".
You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.
The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.
You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.
I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.
You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.
You won't be missed, I promise.
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You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.
You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.
Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.
I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.
You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".
You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.
The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.
You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.
I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.
You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.
You won't be missed, I promise.
C'mon now ... don't hold back. How do you really feel?
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Canned, I appreciate this. But Ners basic problem is that he is so convinced he is right, that he simply does not believe that he is wrong or can learn something from someone who has a differing point of view. Remember, he truly felt that the mods locked down the "Should Ners be banned?" thread because Scoop *needs* him to create debate. Like he is the Skip Bayless of Scoop or something.
IOW, nothing will change. He is who he is. The mods tried dealing with him, but when he returned and did the same exact thing all over again, they blamed everyone else. What can you do?
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I stand by my comments on Dickie Simpkins. When something so out of left field begins after 25 games of saying virtually nothing - it reeks as odd to say the least.
Can you say #NersIsNuts #SeekHelp
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1739935115/Dickie-Simpkins.jpg)
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f*cked up "narrative blender"
Ners's f*cked up narrative blender.....is that better than a Nutribullet?
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You totally have it wrong and backwards. You play talented guys max minutes...period...and live with their growing pains. Particularly when your VET gives you next to nothing.
I love how you and the others who champion Derrick completely disregard stats offered on JJJ's 6 games of getting more than 25 minutes, and just piss all over them. While you can't find anything even close to Derrick Wilson putting up these kind of numbers in any type of scenario at any point EVER in his career at MU. Why?? Because he isn't freaking capable. At least JJJ has shown you he IS capable of such production. And he's only a sophomore. Take the shackles off Wojo.
And as I've said, just because a guy comes in and perhaps misses his first two shots and might have a turnover - it doesn't mean he is going to be bad for a whole game. So, for JJJ - he goes into a game tight - knowing that basically if I don't make my first shot or two, have a turnover - I'm getting yanked. It leads to tight performance.
I would take Derrick's season production over JjJ's, seven ways to Sunday. As would 99% of people here. You keep saying JjJ has more "talent" than Derrick. Fine. But Derrick is a better basketball player than JjJ s right now. I want the best basketball players on the floor as much as possible. JjJ will probably become a better basketball player because I see that "talent" that you keep talking about. But he ain't there yet.
You show a distinct lack of understanding as to how coaches make decisions regarding playing time. Come conference season, coaches know who their starting five are. In our case it is Carlino, Duane, Derrick, Juan, Luke. These players are going to get 20+ mpg every game because they proved to the coach during the non-conference season that they are the best players on the team. The remaining players, Steve, Sandy, and JjJ have to earn their playing time with production. This isn't unfair treatment. This is Wojo recognizing who his best players are. You say that players won't play well in this system, that this makes them "play tight" or whatever you want to call it. Maybe that's true, but for every JjJ there is a Sandy Cohen who responds to the challenge and become increasingly better each time he goes out on the court.
And I'll say again, I don't think JjJ is the type of player who is looking over his shoulder every time he plays. He plays aggressively and fearless....to a fault sometimes. I think he is working his ass off trying to become a better player. Players who are afraid to be pulled don't take as many three pointers as he does. I think you do a great disservice to him by portraying him as this scared boy who is afraid of the big bad Wojo and pouts when he doesn't get his way. I know that's not what you think you are doing, but that's how it is coming off.
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And BTW - Please stop with the dumb ass argument about Florida and them having 7, Top 100 players - they are 34 in Pomeory's rankings. Us? 104 - just 70 spots worse. Just like Brew offered up Xavier, Michigan State, Ohio State, Georgetown and other teams having similar Top 100 talent - they are performing in the Top 30 teams - us?
I don't think I brought up the Florida example in this thread....so this is interesting placement. But I'll bite. You miss, or ignore, the point of the argument. You were arguing that a team without a dominant PG, only 10 scholarship players to start the season, 8 scholarship players to finish the season, no players taller than 6"7 to start the season, with a first year coach, with only 2 players on the roster who average more than 13.5 mpg last season, that was picked to finish 9th in the Big East should be expected to get into the NCAA tournament because they have 7 former top 100 players on their roster. You gave no other proof as to why they should be in the NCAA other than the fact they have 7 former top 100 players.
So if a team with as many things working against it as Marquette has can be expected to make the tournament because of 7 former top 100 players, than the University of Florida, with 8 former top 100 players and none of the above issues, should be a shoe in to be a final four contender. Or at least a top 25 team. They have a dominant PG (or at least should be in your eyes because he was the number 7 player in the country coming out of high school), they started with 11 scholarship players, they had no transfers/injuries/off the court issues, have 6 players taller than 6'7 on the roster, have a future HOF coach, have 3 players on the roster who averaged more than 13.5 mpg last season, and were picked to finish in the top 10 teams in the country. Plus, they have their 8 former top 100s, two of who were top 10, four of whom were ranked higher than our highest player.
But Florida isn't a top 25 like your POV would suggest. They are 12-9, better than us. But they are a fringe bubble team at this point. With all the top high school recruits and other advantages they had on us, they should be doing much better no?
What I did notice is that both teams were lacking players who had significant playing time the season before. Florida only had three who averaged more than 13.5, MU had 2. Maybe that is more relevant than their former top 100 recruits?
The point of the argument is you can't just say "We have X number of former top 100 players, we should be great!" There are many other more relevant factors that need to be taken into account. Teams with tons of former top 100 players sometimes suck. Teams with one or two former top 100 players are sometimes great (see Butler). You scream over and over "7 top 100 players" but than you conveniently ignore all of the other issues that I bring up above. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgement of those other factors that may be holding back our team.
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I still can't believe that Cords didn't hire Ners to coach the team.....I mean what was he thinking? All of our problems would be solved and we would be 15-6 instead of 10-11.
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I don't think I brought up the Florida example in this thread....so this is interesting placement. But I'll bite. You miss, or ignore, the point of the argument. You were arguing that a team without a dominant PG, only 10 scholarship players to start the season, 8 scholarship players to finish the season, no players taller than 6"7 to start the season, with a first year coach, with only 2 players on the roster who average more than 13.5 mpg last season, that was picked to finish 9th in the Big East should be expected to get into the NCAA tournament because they have 7 former top 100 players on their roster. You gave no other proof as to why they should be in the NCAA other than the fact they have 7 former top 100 players.
So if a team with as many things working against it as Marquette has can be expected to make the tournament because of 7 former top 100 players, than the University of Florida, with 8 former top 100 players and none of the above issues, should be a shoe in to be a final four contender. Or at least a top 25 team. They have a dominant PG (or at least should be in your eyes because he was the number 7 player in the country coming out of high school), they started with 11 scholarship players, they had no transfers/injuries/off the court issues, have 6 players taller than 6'7 on the roster, have a future HOF coach, have 3 players on the roster who averaged more than 13.5 mpg last season, and were picked to finish in the top 10 teams in the country. Plus, they have their 8 former top 100s, two of who were top 10, four of whom were ranked higher than our highest player.
But Florida isn't a top 25 like your POV would suggest. They are 12-9, better than us. But they are a fringe bubble team at this point. With all the top high school recruits and other advantages they had on us, they should be doing much better no?
What I did notice is that both teams were lacking players who had significant playing time the season before. Florida only had three who averaged more than 13.5, MU had 2. Maybe that is more relevant than their former top 100 recruits?
The point of the argument is you can't just say "We have X number of former top 100 players, we should be great!" There are many other more relevant factors that need to be taken into account. Teams with tons of former top 100 players sometimes suck. Teams with one or two former top 100 players are sometimes great (see Butler). You scream over and over "7 top 100 players" but than you conveniently ignore all of the other issues that I bring up above. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgement of those other factors that may be holding back our team.
"And stop with the dumb ass argument," says Ners. "Dumb ass arguments are MY domain!"
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You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.
You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.
Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.
I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.
You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".
You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.
The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.
You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.
I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.
You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.
You won't be missed, I promise.
Holy hell this is awesome. Well done.
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Can you say #NersIsNuts #SeekHelp
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1739935115/Dickie-Simpkins.jpg)
This made me laugh.
"Can you saaaayyyy #LETITGO ?
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You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.
You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.
Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.
I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.
You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".
You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.
The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.
You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.
I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.
You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.
You won't be missed, I promise.
This is the most spot-on post I have seen in a long time. It's unfortunate when one poster's ego can derail an entire board like this.
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Canned goods and ammo slamming it home with authority.
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I stand by my comments on Dickie Simpkins. When something so out of left field begins after 25 games of saying virtually nothing - it reeks as odd to say the least.
For someone who criticize others for commenting on basketball when they didn't play in high school, this is hilarious.
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You can stand by your comments all you want. You're flat out wrong. Again.
You've constructed a narrative in an area that is completely out of your area of expertise and you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Now, I'm sure you'll launch into some "LOL" statement about wrestlers, or Star Wars Fans, or whatever. Great. Have fun with that.
Doesn't change a thing. You're wrong.
I'm telling you you're wrong. Instead of listening, or asking somebody (me) who might know something about it, you just double down and plug your ears. This is why you have no credibility with me, or with anybody on this board.
You have a pathological need to construct these complex narratives to explain the world through your eyes. You lack the ability to evaluate data in a clear, logical manner, and you fail disastrously with more advanced concepts like "cause vs correlation".
You routinely cherry pick bits of information and put it into some sort of f*cked up "narrative blender" to get to the answers you want, and when you are called out, you just move to another thread and restart the debate all over again. You present opinions and facts, and you use volume and frequency of your posts to support your tireless agenda. Circular logic at it's finest.
The month you were away was honestly the most enjoyable month this board has had since the last time I sent you on vacation.
You're not pleasant to deal with. You routinely call other posters names, and openly mock their opinions and hold yourself above them. You even started calling Derrick a cute nickname, which isn't cute at all.
I'm tired of dealing with you. We're all tired of dealing with you. Go away. Don't ever come back. We don't like you. We don't need you. You're not intelligent. You're not funny.
You've overplayed your hand, and it's time for you to go.
You won't be missed, I promise.
You sir, have obviously been corrupted by whatever cabal it is that doesn't want the rest of us to know the truth. Well done.
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outstanding
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Canned goods and ammo slamming it home with authority.
Indeed. Well said by canned. Hard to believe one idiot evokes this, sad but true.
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JJJ is a hot topic of debate here. If I said there is a player on the roster who would give us this production if they were given 25+ minutes per game per night - would anybody in their right mind say he doesn't deserve 25+?
6 games of 25+ minutes against 4 of our Top 6 wins for the year: TN Martin, OSU (loss), NJIT, ASU, North Dakota, Providence.
Averages:
29.3 minutes per game. 13.6ppg. 4.3 rebounds per game. 2.5 assists per game. 3.0 steals per game 2.6 turnovers per game.
Like most talented players, it helps when you get long stretches of run/playing time. The above alone are all that needs to be said for what can be done to improve this team. Does it mean every game JJJ plays 25+ he'll post the above stats? Of course not. But - 6 games isn't a meaningless sample size. He's a sophomore. Let's get him more experience. Perhaps along the way we start to win some of these games. Furthermore, it likely helps JJJ feel positive about his future at MU and under Wojo/hopefully eliminates any thoughts of transferring.
Of those 6 games, only Ohio St and Providence are in the top 100 in the RPI. His averages in those games:
7 PPG, 24% shooting, 0% from 3, 7 TOs.
The other 4 games average RPI 181.
17 PPG, 55% shooting, 31% from 3, 9 TOs.
If your point is that when he plays 25 minutes a game against the bottom half of the NCAA, he plays well, but when he does it against the top 100, he is bad. You would have a lot more people that agree with you.
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I would be delighted to see JJJ get the opportunity to play 25 plus minutes per game. It is very difficult for anyone to play in the mode they are playing him in. JJJ plays an aggressive attacking style and that is what makes him effective . When he gets in the flow lots of good things happen. Yes I recognize his shot needs improvement, but he still adds value in other ways. I thought the Providence game was a great example, we wouldn't have won that without him. We need this kid in the game as much as possible as he is a legitimate threat to take it to the rack. At the very least his playing segments should be longer to give him the opportunity to make good things happen.
The current rotation is not working.
10-11 2-7 is not acceptable
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Texas Western -
So if you were MU AD or President, would you pull the plug on Wojo now? Give him until the end of the season? End of next season? What exactly.
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I would be delighted to see JJJ get the opportunity to play 25 plus minutes per game. It is very difficult for anyone to play in the mode they are playing him in. JJJ plays an aggressive attacking style and that is what makes him effective . When he gets in the flow lots of good things happen. Yes I recognize his shot needs improvement, but he still adds value in other ways. I thought the Providence game was a great example, we wouldn't have won that without him. We need this kid in the game as much as possible as he is a legitimate threat to take it to the rack. At the very least his playing segments should be longer to give him the opportunity to make good things happen.
The current rotation is not working. Le
10-11 2-7 is not acceptable
TW, can you tell Scoop your relationship to JjJ? Family member? Former coach? Personal friend? Other? I think it makes a big difference to know if you're someone like a family member or just a zealous Warrior fan.
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Texas Western -
So if you were MU AD or President, would you pull the plug on Wojo now? Give him until the end of the season? End of next season? What exactly.
Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
You are going to wish you never posted garbage like this, because it's forever documented after Wojo gets this train rolling again.
And it really sickens me the way you attack Wojo's character, everything I've heard and read about him is he's of high character and integrity.
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
You clearly are not a donor that matters because they are firmly behind Wojo. I will pass along your inane comments to Dr Lovell at dinner in LA next week. I am sure he will be amused.
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Of those 6 games, only Ohio St and Providence are in the top 100 in the RPI. His averages in those games:
7 PPG, 24% shooting, 0% from 3, 7 TOs.
The other 4 games average RPI 181.
17 PPG, 55% shooting, 31% from 3, 9 TOs.
If your point is that when he plays 25 minutes a game against the bottom half of the NCAA, he plays well, but when he does it against the top 100, he is bad. You would have a lot more people that agree with you.
Forgetful, I completely understand what you're saying (and who you're saying it to), but in all honesty you could make the same argument regarding Luke Fischer.
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Forgetful, I completely understand what you're saying (and who you're saying it to), but in all honesty you could make the same argument regarding Luke Fischer.
However we have no other options at center. We do have other wings.
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
Gotta be the 97th time you've said something like this and presented it as fact with zero evidence. Good job.
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
Buzz character > Wojo character.
You are the only person in the universe with this belief.
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
You. Are. Full. Of. It.
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Gotta be the 97th time you've said something like this and presented it as fact with zero evidence. Good job.
Remember what his motivations are. (He is no long-term fan of the program. Flat out lying.)
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
I think part of the reason MU hired Wojo was because they knew the culture he'd create. He's going to create a culture of not bringing in recruits the University doesn't agree on, he's not going to accept anything less than the players giving max effort and he's going to bring in great recruiting classes. I'll be very surprised if, at the time Wojo leaves MU for whatever reason and whenever that might be, that anyone calls him ANY of the names Tanned Tommy and Bert were called when they left (shifty, slimy, snake oil salesman, etc.).
You never answered my question TW. What's your relationship to JjJ? Where does your zealousness for JjJ come from?
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Remember what his motivations are. (He is no long-term fan of the program. Flat out lying.)
I think you've absolutely nailed that with TW.
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Most overrated 27th best player in his class I've ever seen, at least this year
Yes I agree.
Guy has no heart, plays timidly, is afraid to mess up.
Sandy Cohen
Lots of heart, plays fearless, does not care if he misses shot
The minutes go to Cohen
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
How was Burton thrown under the bus? I've never really seen anything to indicate that.
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How was Burton thrown under the bus? I've never really seen anything to indicate that.
He literally threw him under the team bus. You didn't hear about that? It happened when Wojo was jerking him around over his minutes. Derrick was there too.
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He literally threw him under the team bus. You didn't hear about that? It happened when Wojo was jerking him around over his minutes. Derrick was there too.
Yep. Then they had trouble pulling him out from under the bus because Wojo had him on such a short leash.
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He literally threw him under the team bus. You didn't hear about that? It happened when Wojo was jerking him around over his minutes. Derrick was there too.
I heard Wojo used his mind-games to have Deonte throw himself under the bus.
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I heard Wojo used his mind-games to have Deonte throw himself under the bus.
As I understand it, Wojo gave Deonte's bus to Derrick.
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Of those 6 games, only Ohio St and Providence are in the top 100 in the RPI. His averages in those games:
7 PPG, 24% shooting, 0% from 3, 7 TOs.
The other 4 games average RPI 181.
17 PPG, 55% shooting, 31% from 3, 9 TOs.
If your point is that when he plays 25 minutes a game against the bottom half of the NCAA, he plays well, but when he does it against the top 100, he is bad. You would have a lot more people that agree with you.
Pomeroy's tend to be much more reflective of actual team strength. Arizona State is ranked 51 by Pomeroy.
So, JJJ against Top 51 teams:
JJJ in those games? 12ppg, 5.3 rebounds/game, 2.3 assist/game, 2.6 steals per game.
If you want, feel free to check Derrick's stats against Ohio State, Arizona State, and Providence. What you will find is 25.6 minutes per game, 4.6ppg, 1.6 rebounds/game, 3.6 assists/game, .66/steals per game.
Now, of course JJJ has only gotten 25 minutes in 6 games this year, and the output for those games is what it is. Sadly, you'd have to take Derrick's best 6 games from his entire career against competition of any caliber to match similar stats to what JJJ posted just this season in the 6 games he was given 25 minutes.
But I know, I know - You have to earn your playing time in practice. It doesn't matter what you do in games.
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Most overrated 27th best player in his class I've ever seen, at least this year
Yes I agree.
I wouldn't say that. One only has to look two spots above JjJ to find a more overrated player. Jermaine Lawrence was number 25 in the 2013 class. He currently plays for Manhattan and is averaging around 4 ppg in 13 mpg. Again, for Manhattan.
JjJ was overrated. But that happens to players all the time. Kid has good production for the second lowest player on the depth chart of a high major team. He is working hard to rework his shooting form. That is a long, slow, and challenging process. He might surprise us next season. Or he might not
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But I know, I know - You have to earn your playing time in practice. It doesn't matter what you do in games.
No, it matters what you do in games. Derrick has been better.
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How was Burton thrown under the bus? I've never really seen anything to indicate that.
Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication. But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team. When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy. Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team. Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16. WOW.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html
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Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication. But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team. When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy. Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team. Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16. WOW.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html
This does not paint Mr Burton in a very favorable light
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Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication. But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team. When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy. Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team. Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16. WOW.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html
I'm not really sure how not giving Deonte more minutes is considered "throwing him under the bus".
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This does not paint Mr Burton in a very favorable light
C'mon. Ners was an exceptional HS basketball player. We know that because he said so.
He got there because his HS coach saw greatness in him. He stunk up the joint his first three years, blew defensive assignments, didn't go after rebounds, etc. but found his game as a senior, and was all something or other.
This is the only explanation I can find for a supposed high level HS player excusing a player who dogs it and still expects big time minutes.
I know I a going to regret this.
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I'm not really sure how not giving Deonte more minutes is considered "throwing him under the bus".
"Throwing him under the bus" - "Holding him accountable for an unwillingness to contribute in ways other than scoring"
Tomato - Tomahto
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Turning the question around, did Wojo receive from Deonte what he felt he had been promised?
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Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication. But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team. When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy. Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team. Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16. WOW.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html
You might be 100% correct, I have no specific details on the specific situation. I only know what Burton said in the media, which doesn't exactly match what you say.
Anyways, I'm just not sure how that equates to "throwing Burton under the bus". Wojo didn't come out in the media and trash him. Wojo isn't blaming him for transferring. Wojo isn't complaining about only having 8 players. Etc. etc.
Burton decided that MU was no longer the best fit for him. He transferred. I wish him the best of luck.
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"Throwing him under the bus" - "Holding him accountable for an unwillingness to contribute in ways other than scoring"
Tomato - Tomahto
Objection! Speculative.
Just take it on it's facts. For whatever reason, Burton decided MU was no longer the best fit for him. That's it.
I'm indifferent.
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This does not paint Mr Burton in a very favorable light
Indeed, it's all part of the bassackwards narrative of one poster that minutes are determined in advance of (or despite) performance.
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Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication. But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team. When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy. Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team. Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16. WOW.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html
That's it? That's the awful thing that wojo did to make you say he threw Burton under the bus? I was expecting something at least sort of sketchy.
I'm sure that wojo told Burton he would be a key player when took over. He was an all big east freshman, of course the coach would think he would be a key player. What I'm positive Wojo didn't say was you will be a key player, this year, no matter how you're performing, and I will give you at least X minutes a game.
Promises like what you are describing are two way agreements. The coaches agree to give minutes if the players give them effort and production. Burton I'm sure gave effort but he didn't give wojo production. He failed to hold up his end of the bargain. Burton struggled, we all saw that. I personally think it was due to having to play pf and dealing with a terrible tragedy. Whatever the reason, his production was not worthy of more minutes.
You have the player coach relationship backwards. Coaches don't give minutes. Players aren't entitled to minutes. Players earn minutes. Coaches reward production and effort with minutes. Burton wasn't suddenly going to get better because he got more minutes. But he would suddenly get more minutes if he got better.
I know you think you are supporting players like JjJ and Burton but you actually make them out to be entitled, uncoachable, pouters who aren't self aware and quit when they don't get their way. I really think they are better men than that. I think Burton may have been frustrated with his role but I think he would have worked through that if he wasn't dealing with a tragedy in his personal life. I think JjJ is working hard everyday to get better and earn his minutes. Sandy is living proof that wojo rewards improvement with game minutes.
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Objection! Speculative.
Just take it on it's facts. For whatever reason, Burton decided MU was no longer the best fit for him. That's it.
I'm indifferent.
Judge Perd overrules your objection.
My post was in response to the notion that Burton's slight increase in minutes constituted him being "thrown under the bus."
(Judge Perd is not a real judge)
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That's it? That's the awful thing that wojo did to make you say he threw Burton under the bus? I was expecting something at least sort of sketchy.
I'm sure that wojo told Burton he would be a key player when took over. He was an all big east freshman, of course the coach would think he would be a key player. What I'm positive Wojo didn't say was you will be a key player, this year, no matter how you're performing, and I will give you at least X minutes a game.
Promises like what you are describing are two way agreements. The coaches agree to give minutes if the players give them effort and production. Burton I'm sure gave effort but he didn't give wojo production. He failed to hold up his end of the bargain. Burton struggled, we all saw that. I personally think it was due to having to play pf and dealing with a terrible tragedy. Whatever the reason, his production was not worthy of more minutes.
You have the player coach relationship backwards. Coaches don't give minutes. Players aren't entitled to minutes. Players earn minutes. Coaches reward production and effort with minutes. Burton wasn't suddenly going to get better because he got more minutes. But he would suddenly get more minutes if he got better.
I know you think you are supporting players like JjJ and Burton but you actually make them out to be entitled, uncoachable, pouters who aren't self aware and quit when they don't get their way. I really think they are better men than that. I think Burton may have been frustrated with his role but I think he would have worked through that if he wasn't dealing with a tragedy in his personal life. I think JjJ is working hard everyday to get better and earn his minutes. Sandy is living proof that wojo rewards improvement with game minutes.
Well done. This is much better, much more complete version of my question whether Wojo had received what he had been promised by Burton. Kudos. Actually, it should be the starting point of a new thread. What does a coach owe a player and what does the player owe the coach?
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Judge Perd overrules your objection.
My post was in response to the notion that Burton's slight increase in minutes constituted him being "thrown under the bus."
(Judge Perd is not a real judge)
I don't know what that means, but Judge Perd will allow it.
(Judge Perd is not a real judge)
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No, it matters what you do in games. Derrick has been better.
Except he continues to be classified by Pomeroy as a limited role player, playing max minutes. See the disconnect?? It is completely incongruent that your leading minute getter is essentially a limited role player. By virtue of being on the floor 33+ minutes per game - you are going to find your way to 5 ppg, and some rebounds and assists. The proverbial blind squirrel can find a nut. And as has been revealed, O-Rating in and of itself is an incredibly flawed metric.
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Indeed, it's all part of the bassackwards narrative of one poster that minutes are determined in advance of (or despite) performance.
LOL - Says the guy who champions continued and max minutes for a guy that has produced next to nothing on the floor for over 1.5 seasons of being played max minutes.
And for the 100th time - here were Burton's numbers when he transferred:
47.8% FG percentage (tops on team). 76.5 FT (2nd on team). 40% 3pt FG% (tops on team at time of transfer)
You same clowns tear down Denote's production (which there actually is, and was as a freshman) and champion a senior who does virtually nothing out there...other than not screw up, and grab some rebounds and make a few lateral passes along the perimeter for assists. It really is ass backwards and asinine.
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LOL - Says the guy who champions continued and max minutes for a guy that has produced next to nothing on the floor for over 1.5 seasons of being played max minutes.
And for the 100th time - here were Burton's numbers when he transferred:
47.8% FG percentage (tops on team). 76.5 FT (2nd on team). 40% 3pt FG% (tops on team at time of transfer)
You same clowns tear down Denote's production (which there actually is, and was as a freshman) and champion a senior who does virtually nothing out there...other than not screw up, and grab some rebounds and make a few lateral passes along the perimeter for assists. It really is ass backwards and asinine.
Who here trashes Deonte?
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I don't know what that means, but Judge Perd will allow it.
(Judge Perd is not a real judge)
More a fan of "Mock Trial with J. Reinhold," I assume.
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That's it? That's the awful thing that wojo did to make you say he threw Burton under the bus? I was expecting something at least sort of sketchy.
I'm sure that wojo told Burton he would be a key player when took over. He was an all big east freshman, of course the coach would think he would be a key player. What I'm positive Wojo didn't say was you will be a key player, this year, no matter how you're performing, and I will give you at least X minutes a game.
Promises like what you are describing are two way agreements. The coaches agree to give minutes if the players give them effort and production. Burton I'm sure gave effort but he didn't give wojo production. He failed to hold up his end of the bargain. Burton struggled, we all saw that. I personally think it was due to having to play pf and dealing with a terrible tragedy. Whatever the reason, his production was not worthy of more minutes.
You have the player coach relationship backwards. Coaches don't give minutes. Players aren't entitled to minutes. Players earn minutes. Coaches reward production and effort with minutes. Burton wasn't suddenly going to get better because he got more minutes. But he would suddenly get more minutes if he got better.
I know you think you are supporting players like JjJ and Burton but you actually make them out to be entitled, uncoachable, pouters who aren't self aware and quit when they don't get their way. I really think they are better men than that. I think Burton may have been frustrated with his role but I think he would have worked through that if he wasn't dealing with a tragedy in his personal life. I think JjJ is working hard everyday to get better and earn his minutes. Sandy is living proof that wojo rewards improvement with game minutes.
I admire your continued effort in this discussion, TAMU, but fear you are fighting a no-win battle. Stats will be cherry picked -- offensive rating matters when it comes to what Burton and Johnson did last year but not when it comes to Derrick or apparently Sandy this year. When you point out that the argument posed by the other side makes Jajuan and Deonte look like whining, entitled pouters (not something I'm saying they are at all, but something they are made out to be by the other side) those comments will be ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.
This is a great post by you. It really sums things up well. And like all insightful posts, will be dismissed and ignored in favor of the same rhetoric about Derrick and Wojo. Fight the good fight, but realize that just like a clown punching bag, it will always bounce back up undaunted and ignorant to your blows.
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Are we really back to this?
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Are we really back to this?
Did we ever leave?
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Did we ever leave?
No, but it got so bad for a while that I did. ::)
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I admire your continued effort in this discussion, TAMU, but fear you are fighting a no-win battle. Stats will be cherry picked -- offensive rating matters when it comes to what Burton and Johnson did last year but not when it comes to Derrick or apparently Sandy this year. When you point out that the argument posed by the other side makes Jajuan and Deonte look like whining, entitled pouters (not something I'm saying they are at all, but something they are made out to be by the other side) those comments will be ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.
This is a great post by you. It really sums things up well. And like all insightful posts, will be dismissed and ignored in favor of the same rhetoric about Derrick and Wojo. Fight the good fight, but realize that just like a clown punching bag, it will always bounce back up undaunted and ignorant to your blows.
You fail to understand that O-Rating by itself is NOT a metric for determining a players value/talent. Are you that dense to not understand/comprehend usage?
Do you believe Jake Thomas is a better player than Duane Wilson or Todd Mayo?? Maybe you do - as I know you feel Derrick is better than both Junior Cadougan and Buycks?? And I'm called delusional here. LOL.
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Anyone have a definition of obsessive compulsive?
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So less playing time than a player expected = "throwing him under the bus"?
Guess that means several hundred D-1 players get thrown under the bus by their coaches every season.
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I admire your continued effort in this discussion, TAMU, but fear you are fighting a no-win battle. Stats will be cherry picked -- offensive rating matters when it comes to what Burton and Johnson did last year but not when it comes to Derrick or apparently Sandy this year. When you point out that the argument posed by the other side makes Jajuan and Deonte look like whining, entitled pouters (not something I'm saying they are at all, but something they are made out to be by the other side) those comments will be ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.
This is a great post by you. It really sums things up well. And like all insightful posts, will be dismissed and ignored in favor of the same rhetoric about Derrick and Wojo. Fight the good fight, but realize that just like a clown punching bag, it will always bounce back up undaunted and ignorant to your blows.
Oh I know. I'm not on a mission to change anybody's mind. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the debate. Whenever I make a well reasoned defense I wait in anticipation of what the next....unconventional...theory will be be. It's quite entertaining. And every once in awhile a good point is brought up that I hadn't considered before and it makes me think.
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But...My God...can't you see the magnitude of the danger here?....they have gotten to Dickey Simpkins...Dickey Simpkins!!! ....if the MU conspirator machine can get to him, my God they can get to anybody. Someone needs to alert Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale...they are in grave danger. Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...
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Can't see JJJ getting 25+ minutes per game given the current rotations. With a 3 guard set of 120 minutes, you have Wojo and Derrick eating up about 68-70 minutes, Duane at about 28 minutes and Sandy getting about 20 minutes. Does not leave much for JJJ.
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Can't see JJJ getting 25+ minutes per game given the current rotations. With a 3 guard set of 120 minutes, you have Wojo and Derrick eating up about 68-70 minutes, Duane at about 28 minutes and Sandy getting about 20 minutes. Does not leave much for JJJ.
When did Wojo get eligibility?
Or did you mean Carlino and Derrick?
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Except he continues to be classified by Pomeroy as a limited role player, playing max minutes. See the disconnect?? It is completely incongruent that your leading minute getter is essentially a limited role player. By virtue of being on the floor 33+ minutes per game - you are going to find your way to 5 ppg, and some rebounds and assists. The proverbial blind squirrel can find a nut. And as has been revealed, O-Rating in and of itself is an incredibly flawed metric.
The proverbial blind squirrel on our team is JjJ. Have you seen his shooting stats?
You may recall that you were the king of O-rating last season when it fit your narrative. But it is a flawed metric. Like every other metric, so it's not fair to throw it out. Derrick has high efficiency and low usage. Do you know why his usage is so low? Because he knows his limitations and doesn't look to shoot, he looks to put others in a position to shoot. He also doesn't turn the ball over. You say O-Rating is flawed because it puts so much emphasis on turnovers? Usage is affected even more by turnovers. When you have low turnovers, your usage goes down. When you have a lot of turnovers it goes up. Why is JjJ's usage so high? Because he shoots despite not being good at it and turns the ball over. Just as o-rating is useless without usage, usage is useless without o-rating.
I will cite Lenny properly this time:
High usage, high efficiency = Star of the team
Low Usage, high efficiency = Solid role player
Low Usage, low efficiency = Bench player
High Usage, low efficiency = Disaster
Derrick is in the solid role player category. I would much rather have him on the floor than JjJ. Unfortunately the only player we have the star category is Carlino (our actual lead minute getter). The rest are in the role or bench player category, though I believe Duane is getting close to star status. JjJ is the only one in the disaster category.
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When did Wojo get eligibility?
Or did you mean Carlino and Derrick?
Yeah, sorry, I meant Carlino. My bad. Besides--we have our own Wojo Clone already--Derrick--but he doesn't slap the floor near enough.
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Oh I know. I'm not on a mission to change anybody's mind. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the debate. Whenever I make a well reasoned defense I wait in anticipation of what the next....unconventional...theory will be be. It's quite entertaining. And every once in awhile a good point is brought up that I hadn't considered before and it makes me think.
I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU. Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks. Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.
I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets. We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings. Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.
All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.
If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)
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But...My God...can't you see the magnitude of the danger here?....they have gotten to Dickey Simpkins...Dickey Simpkins!!! ....if the MU conspirator machine can get to him, my God they can get to anybody. Someone needs to alert Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale...they are in grave danger. Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...
"Big Derrick" can get to anybody at anytime.
Sleep with one eye open, gents.
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I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU. Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks. Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.
I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets. We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings. Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.
All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.
If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)
I have never said Derrick was better than Buycks or Cadougan. I personally don't believe it.
I think we refuted your point pretty easily. You just didn't accept the answer. JjJ got 25+ minutes because he was playing well. He didn't play well because he got 25+ minutes.
I believe o-rating is a flawed metric on its own. You have to pair it with usage. That gives you the most accurate picture. If you use the two in tandem, it shows that Derrick is a solid role player while JjJ is the worst on the team. I also buy into Bama's value add stat. It has its flaws too but what metric doesn't.
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But...My God...can't you see the magnitude of the danger here?....they have gotten to Dickey Simpkins...Dickey Simpkins!!! ....if the MU conspirator machine can get to him, my God they can get to anybody. Someone needs to alert Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale...they are in grave danger. Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...
"Can you say #conspiracy?"
-Dickie Simpkins
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Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...
(http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/33/94133-004-7C39F857.jpg)
"Someone talked. Go make... inquisitions."
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I have never said Derrick was better than Buycks or Cadougan. I personally don't believe it.
I think we refuted your point pretty easily. You just didn't accept the answer. JjJ got 25+ minutes because he was playing well. He didn't play well because he got 25+ minutes.
I believe o-rating is a flawed metric on its own. You have to pair it with usage. That gives you the most accurate picture. If you use the two in tandem, it shows that Derrick is a solid role player while JjJ is the worst on the team. I also buy into Bama's value add stat. It has its flaws too but what metric doesn't.
How do your metrics measure the fact that you didn't play high school basketball?
#DerrickisWojo #FinkleisEinhorn
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Just as o-rating is useless without usage, usage is useless without o-rating.
And both are useless without factoring in minutes. That's why Jajuan's numbers last year were fools gold. He had a high ORtg and usage, but did it in only 20% of the team's minutes, most of which were non-conference games.
When a player plays more minutes you get a more accurate picture of what they are. If a guy plays 2 minutes, takes 2 shots, and turns it over once, his usage will be very high. But over 20 minutes, you will get a better picture of what his usage would be in the full flow of the team.
That's why Cubillan was so impressive as a freshman, and rightly noted by bama in another thread as #2 since Wade. His usage may have been low but he played 58% of the minutes and had a great ORtg. The minutes tell you that Cooby's numbers paint a more accurate picture that someone like Jajuan who took a back seat add the season went on.
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And both are useless without factoring in minutes. That's why Jajuan's numbers last year were fools gold. He had a high ORtg and usage, but did it in only 20% of the team's minutes, most of which were non-conference games.
Just to touch on the "fool's gold" comment...
Last season, JJJ's overall ORtg was 110.4 (2nd on the team). His BE ORtg was 92.4 (8th on the team).
Fool's gold, indeed.
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I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU. Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks. Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.
I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets. We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings. Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.
All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.
If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)
Ok, you really want 6 games from Derrick's career. Here goes:
Last year @Arizona State 39 minutes, 5/9, 15 points, 4 rebs, 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Last year neutral site against GW 32 minutes, 4/6, 11 points, 4 rebs, 4 assists, 2 turnovers
Last year @Butler 40 minutes, 6/13, 13 points, 6 rebs, 3 assists, 2 steals, 5 turnovers
Last year @St. Johns 29 minutes, 5/7, 14 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
This year neutral site against Tenn 36 minutes, 4/4, 11 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
This year home against Seton Hall 31 minutes, 4/6, 10 points, 7 rebs, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
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Ok, you really want 6 games from Derrick's career. Here goes:
Last year @Arizona State 39 minutes, 5/9, 15 points, 4 rebs, 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Last year neutral site against GW 32 minutes, 4/6, 11 points, 4 rebs, 4 assists, 2 turnovers
Last year @Butler 40 minutes, 6/13, 13 points, 6 rebs, 3 assists, 2 steals, 5 turnovers
Last year @St. Johns 29 minutes, 5/7, 14 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
This year neutral site against Tenn 36 minutes, 4/4, 11 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
This year home against Seton Hall 31 minutes, 4/6, 10 points, 7 rebs, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
That comes out to...
34.5 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 4.2 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.8 stls, 1.8 TO and 62.2% shooting.
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That comes out to...
34.5 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 4.2 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.8 stls, 1.8 TO and 62.2% shooting.
(http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2013/10/FieldCricket.png)
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Ok, you really want 6 games from Derrick's career. Here goes:
Last year @Arizona State 39 minutes, 5/9, 15 points, 4 rebs, 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Last year neutral site against GW 32 minutes, 4/6, 11 points, 4 rebs, 4 assists, 2 turnovers
Last year @Butler 40 minutes, 6/13, 13 points, 6 rebs, 3 assists, 2 steals, 5 turnovers
Last year @St. Johns 29 minutes, 5/7, 14 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
This year neutral site against Tenn 36 minutes, 4/4, 11 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
This year home against Seton Hall 31 minutes, 4/6, 10 points, 7 rebs, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers
Worth noting, all six of those games are against either high major or NCAA Tournament teams.
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(http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2013/10/FieldCricket.png)
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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(http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/33/94133-004-7C39F857.jpg)
"Someone talked. Go make... inquisitions."
Now those are awesome uniforms. Take a poll: Would that be Patton's dress uniform for the military or Obama's. I vote Obama. Maybe MU pep squad could wear those with blue and gold colors.
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That comes out to...
34.5 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 4.2 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.8 stls, 1.8 TO and 62.2% shooting.
Crickets my ass. LOL - So the best 6 games of Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE career (120+games)are not better than the 6 games JJJ has gotten 25+ minutes this year.
JJJ
29.6 minutes (5 minutes less of playing time) 13.6ppg, 4.3 reb, 2.5ast, 3.0 steals, 2.6 TOs
LOL - One guy is a sophomore.
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Crickets my ass. LOL - So the best 6 games of Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE career (120+games)are not better than the 6 games JJJ has gotten 25+ minutes this year.
JJJ
29.6 minutes (5 minutes less of playing time) 13.6ppg, 4.3 reb, 2.5ast, 3.0 steals, 2.6 TOs
LOL - One guy is a sophomore.
You challenged somebody.
They met your challenge.
Why are you so combative ALL OF THE TIME?
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You challenged somebody.
They met your challenge.
Why are you so combative ALL OF THE TIME?
Normally signs of immaturity / insecurity
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You challenged somebody.
They met your challenge.
Why are you so combative ALL OF THE TIME?
Are you serious? Says the guy who went on a rant of combative dislike for me within the last 48 hours? Didn't even respond to it, as I chose to be the bigger person on that. I thought about sharing some choice views I have on you, yet felt it was unnecessary to stoop to your level.
As for this post - yes - I served up an offer/challenge of giving someone 120+ games to pick the best 6 of Derrick's entire career to exceed JJJ's 6 of this year. Per usual, the usual suspects all chime in with crickets, BWAHHHHH, etc., when someone posts stats that get close to JJJ's - and what's hilarious about it?? The challenge ultimately wasn't met.
Sorry I find it laughable that when given a 3.5 year pool of games to choose from, all the Derrick supporters here (many of whom discredit JJJ), can't even grab the best 6 games of Derrick's career and exceed JJJ's production of the 6 games this season JJJ's gotten 25+ minutes.
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Normally signs of immaturity / insecurity
Not nearly as much as guys who have to resort to hitting the "report to mods" function, place people on ignore that they disagree with, ask Mods to ban someone who has an alternative viewpoint than them.
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Not nearly as much as guys who have to resort to hitting the "report to mods" function, place people on ignore that they disagree with, ask Mods to ban someone who has an alternative viewpoint than them.
Now Ners, settle down. The thought police, politically correct, and free speech deniers permeate in society. never be a contrarian when the style is to go with the flow,.
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You challenged somebody.
They met your challenge.
Why are you so combative ALL OF THE TIME?
Because shifting goalposts is easier than admitting he was wrong.
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Crickets my ass. LOL - So the best 6 games of Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE career (120+games)are not better than the 6 games JJJ has gotten 25+ minutes this year.
JJJ
29.6 minutes (5 minutes less of playing time) 13.6ppg, 4.3 reb, 2.5ast, 3.0 steals, 2.6 TOs
LOL - One guy is a sophomore.
He didn't pick Derrick's six best games. He picked Derrick's best six games against top competition. I would also take Derrick's line over JjJ, especially when you take shooting percentages and defense into account.
Why does him being a sophomore have anything to do with it? I don't care if JjJ will be better next season. Derrick is better right now.
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NVM
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Are you serious? Says the guy who went on a rant of combative dislike for me within the last 48 hours? Didn't even respond to it, as I chose to be the bigger person on that. I thought about sharing some choice views I have on you, yet felt it was unnecessary to stoop to your level.
As for this post - yes - I served up an offer/challenge of giving someone 120+ games to pick the best 6 of Derrick's entire career to exceed JJJ's 6 of this year. Per usual, the usual suspects all chime in with crickets, BWAHHHHH, etc., when someone posts stats that get close to JJJ's - and what's hilarious about it?? The challenge ultimately wasn't met.
Sorry I find it laughable that when given a 3.5 year pool of games to choose from, all the Derrick supporters here (many of whom discredit JJJ), can't even grab the best 6 games of Derrick's career and exceed JJJ's production of the 6 games this season JJJ's gotten 25+ minutes.
Why are you saying Derrick's three and a half year career vs JjJ's 6 games. It really is Derrick's career vs JjJ's career, is it not?
And if you want to say its JjJ's games where he got 25+ minutes, then lets go ahead and erase 2 of Derrick's years outside of the game against UW.
You challenged someone to pick 6 games for Derrick. I provided them. And those stats have similar scoring on better shooting, more rebounds, more assists, and less turnovers. Not to mention something that isn't being picked up there for defense.
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Not nearly as much as guys who have to resort to hitting the "report to mods" function, place people on ignore that they disagree with, ask Mods to ban someone who has an alternative viewpoint than them.
Not me LOL
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Not nearly as much as guys who have to resort to hitting the "report to mods" function, place people on ignore that they disagree with, ask Mods to ban someone who has an alternative viewpoint than them.
For the upteenth time. No one cares the you disagree with them. It is the way in which you do it
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For the upteenth time. No one cares the you disagree with them. It is the way in which you do it
I would think eliciting the response he did from one of the board's most even-handed posters would serve as evidence of this.
For the record, I kinda like angry Ammo.
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I would think eliciting the response he did from one of the board's most even-handed posters would serve as evidence of this.
For the record, I kinda like angry Ammo.
You are assuming he has the ability to learn from experience. There is no evidence of that whatsoever.
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I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU. Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks. Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.
I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets. We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings. Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.
All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.
If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)
Wait a minute, this is your own self-proclamation and I didn't respond to it, because it was so absurd. No one in the country actually thinks Arizona St. is a top 50 (even 51) team. They are 11-11 and second to last in the worst power conference league. Their RPI is 121 (which may be generous). They lost to Lehigh (RPI 161).
My argument of he does well against bad teams is absolutely sound. Any crickets are because people are sick of trying to argue with you, because of how ridiculous your stance is. JJJ is clearly the 8th best player on the team. He wouldn't make it off the bench for any other team in the BE.
Even tonight (in one of his best games of the year), he played out of control, shot 33% from the field and played absolutely 0 defense. He has a lot of potential, but is very very raw. My hopes is this offseason he works on his shot, gets in the gym and studies film.
No rational person agrees with you. Your arguments have 0 merit. Half the board has you on ignore and the other half thinks you are wrong.
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Well, this is fun.
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Crickets my ass. LOL - So the best 6 games of Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE career (120+games)are not better than the 6 games JJJ has gotten 25+ minutes this year.
JJJ
29.6 minutes (5 minutes less of playing time) 13.6ppg, 4.3 reb, 2.5ast, 3.0 steals, 2.6 TOs
LOL - One guy is a sophomore.
JJJ in those games (his best) 45% shooting. Derrick in his 66% shooting. Every coach in D1 and myself would take Derrick's stat line over JJJ's in those 6 games.
Even this season, Derricks best 6 games. (Omaha, Tennessee, North Dakota, Depaul, Providence, Seton Hall).
11.6 PPG, 5.7 reb, 4.5 assists, 1.1 steals, 1.0 TOs, 64.4% shooting.
I'll take Derrick's stat line again. 20% higher FG shooting, fewer TOs, more assists, more rebounds, less steals (way better defense) and controls the ball.
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JJJ in those games (his best) 45% shooting. Derrick in his 66% shooting. Every coach in D1 and myself would take Derrick's stat line over JJJ's in those 6 games.
Even this season, Derricks best 6 games. (Omaha, Tennessee, North Dakota, Depaul, Providence, Seton Hall).
11.6 PPG, 5.7 reb, 4.5 assists, 1.1 steals, 1.0 TOs, 64.4% shooting.
I'll take Derrick's stat line again. 20% higher FG shooting, fewer TOs, more assists, more rebounds, less steals (way better defense) and controls the ball.
All I saw tonight, was another fine outing from Derrick, I wonder why Derrick being a senior and losing did not jack up 20 shots today, he had the looks since no one really guards him. I would
love for him to do that. Win or lose who cares, the team is going nowhere anyway. Show us you can. Tired of yelling at him to shoot it.
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I want JJJ to be good. But I couldn't help noticing 4 occasions tonight in which he went for a steal he had no chance of getting and all 4 led to wide-open 3s for Nova, which made three of the four.
Now, I don't know from all the fancy schmancy defensive metrics that are out there now, but in my mind, that's 9 points against my team that might not have been scored had one player shown a bit more discipline.
I'm guessing Wojo has noticed the same thing in many games this season. But then again, what the hell does he know about solid, intelligent defense? He didn't stop playing ball at high school, so he is stoopid like the rest of us.
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All I saw tonight, was another fine outing from Derrick, I wonder why Derrick being a senior and losing did not jack up 20 shots today, he had the looks since no one really guards him. I would
love for him to do that. Win or lose who cares, the team is going nowhere anyway. Show us you can. Tired of yelling at him to shoot it.
I agree. I would like to see him shoot it when open. He is overly disciplined (better than undisciplined, but still not good). He can't be any less efficient offensively than some of the others.
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I agree. I would like to see him shoot it when open. He is overly disciplined (better than undisciplined, but still not good). He can't be any less efficient offensively than some of the others.
He has no confidence, the only way to get it, is to shoot the ball. And why not?
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I want JJJ to be good. But I couldn't help noticing 4 occasions tonight in which he went for a steal he had no chance of getting and all 4 led to wide-open 3s for Nova, which made three of the four.
This is why I say that steals and poor positional defense is NOT the signs of a good defender.
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It actually would be fun to see Derrick become a 'chucker' for one game. But that'll never happen as he's the son of an army discipline.
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Are you serious? Says the guy who went on a rant of combative dislike for me within the last 48 hours? Didn't even respond to it, as I chose to be the bigger person on that. I thought about sharing some choice views I have on you, yet felt it was unnecessary to stoop to your level.
As for this post - yes - I served up an offer/challenge of giving someone 120+ games to pick the best 6 of Derrick's entire career to exceed JJJ's 6 of this year. Per usual, the usual suspects all chime in with crickets, BWAHHHHH, etc., when someone posts stats that get close to JJJ's - and what's hilarious about it?? The challenge ultimately wasn't met.
Sorry I find it laughable that when given a 3.5 year pool of games to choose from, all the Derrick supporters here (many of whom discredit JJJ), can't even grab the best 6 games of Derrick's career and exceed JJJ's production of the 6 games this season JJJ's gotten 25+ minutes.
If you have a rebuttal to ANYTHING I've ever posted, feel free to share. I openly admit when I've been wrong, and it has certainly happened a lot over the years.
I stand by my post. I didn't call you names. I didn't attack your character. I know in the past you felt my takes weren't hot enough, so I hope you can appreciate that my post was HOT thanks to your previous feedback.
I gave you a brutally honest opinion and evaluation of your posts. If you would like to do the same to me, feel free. I'm certainly not beyond critique.
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It actually would be fun to see Derrick become a 'chucker' for one game. But that'll never happen as he's the son of an army discipline.
It would certainly be interesting, but I doubt it would be 'fun'. 'Painful to watch' is probably closer to the correct description. Derrick shoots a decent percentage basically because unless he is stuck with the ball in an expiring shot clock situation he only shoots wide open, uncontested jump shots and on drives to the hoop. Bulk shooting would not be his friend, as his FT% would attest. The kid is disciplined and knows his limitations.
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(http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2013/10/FieldCricket.png)
This is also what we hear from TW regarding his relationship to JjJ. Texas Western, if you're a relative or former coach of JjJ, or of John Dawson, I think you should either let us know where your bias comes from or leave the board. If you're simply a passionate Warrior fan, you've got some blinders on about JjJ's ability that only you, Ners, Wojo's Mojo and few others see.
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I want JJJ to be good. But I couldn't help noticing 4 occasions tonight in which he went for a steal he had no chance of getting and all 4 led to wide-open 3s for Nova, which made three of the four.
Now, I don't know from all the fancy schmancy defensive metrics that are out there now, but in my mind, that's 9 points against my team that might not have been scored had one player shown a bit more discipline.
+1. I have been saying this same thing for awhile now. On MU D, I find myself watching JJJ exclusively, and am amazed at how fundamentally unsound that he is. Also, by doing what you described 82, JJJ has put our bigs is a bad spot where they have picked up fouls cuz JJJ's man (if he doesn't shoot the open J like Nova) drives to the hoop and draws the foul.
People can come on here and tell me all about his D1 ranking on steals, etc. but his D is still brutal.
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I think that a couple of posters, Texas and Ners, give us great insight into what people around players are telling them. And why the family and those around players can be detriments to the player.
We wonder why some players make poor decisions, just imagine a group of people like Ners around you telling you how great you are, how the coach's don't know what they are doing, etc, etc. Look at Ners approach to Dawson and imagine a group around you pumping you up and how the coach is an idiot and is out to get you, etc.
As for debating Ners, I know it is hard to stop, but face the facts that he never will and is not able to face the facts. You get drawn into a bad position of having to put down an MU player inorder to debate Ners. So, maybe stop. I know most of you don't want to put down JJJ over and over, but that is what you end up doing inorder to try to engage with Ners. It isn't worth it. Leave JJJ alone, even at the expense of having Ners assertions not being disproven.
I'm beyond tired of having Ners taking over scoop in thread after thread with the same stuff over and over and over. But the good news, is that I'm not visiting here as often, which can only be a good thing.
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This is why I say that steals and poor positional defense is NOT the signs of a good defender.
This is why I challenged Bama's Value Added earlier this year. Steals were way overrated, but more importantly, all steals are treated the same whether it's a guy cheating on defensen and getting burned most of the time - but coming up with a couple steals or a guy playing sound defense and getting steals through hard work.
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I want JJJ to be good. But I couldn't help noticing 4 occasions tonight in which he went for a steal he had no chance of getting and all 4 led to wide-open 3s for Nova, which made three of the four.
Yup, I cringed every time he went flying towards half court on a steal attempt and left his man.
On the positive side, he has a nice mid-range touch. He'll be even better in that aspect when he isn't flying around off-balance on those. Vander made huge strides in his pull up game, no reason JJJ can't.
But my god, he needs to fix his defense.
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This is why I say that steals and poor positional defense is NOT the signs of a good defender.
Which were exactly Deonte's problem as well.
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I think that a couple of posters, Texas and Ners, give us great insight into what people around players are telling them. And why the family and those around players can be detriments to the player.
We wonder why some players make poor decisions, just imagine a group of people like Ners around you telling you how great you are, how the coach's don't know what they are doing, etc, etc. Look at Ners approach to Dawson and imagine a group around you pumping you up and how the coach is an idiot and is out to get you, etc.
A good comparison. It's even worse when its friends and family. Players trust their friends and family and if they are telling him not to trust the coach, it can destroy the coach/player relationship. Of course, parents and friends can also be great allies to coaches. If a player gets frustrated with a coach and vents to the parent, the best thing the parent could do would be to tell the student to trust the coach and go earn their spot in the rotation. This used to be a very common practice. Now, parents think their little angels are the best at everything and deserve special treatment.
I've posted it before but I'll post it again because it is such a good representation of today's culture:
(http://www-static.weddingbee.com/pics/234270/school.jpg)
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I think that a couple of posters, Texas and Ners, give us great insight into what people around players are telling them. And why the family and those around players can be detriments to the player.
We wonder why some players make poor decisions, just imagine a group of people like Ners around you telling you how great you are, how the coach's don't know what they are doing, etc, etc. Look at Ners approach to Dawson and imagine a group around you pumping you up and how the coach is an idiot and is out to get you, etc.
As for debating Ners, I know it is hard to stop, but face the facts that he never will and is not able to face the facts. You get drawn into a bad position of having to put down an MU player inorder to debate Ners. So, maybe stop. I know most of you don't want to put down JJJ over and over, but that is what you end up doing inorder to try to engage with Ners. It isn't worth it. Leave JJJ alone, even at the expense of having Ners assertions not being disproven.
I'm beyond tired of having Ners taking over scoop in thread after thread with the same stuff over and over and over. But the good news, is that I'm not visiting here as often, which can only be a good thing.
Well said.
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How does a top 25 player like Johnson not develop?
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How does a top 25 player like Johnson not develop?
His career isn't over. The same could be asked of Butch.
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His career isn't over. The same could be asked of Butch.
If only JJJ had redshirted...
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How does a top 25 player like Johnson not develop?
Better question, how did a top-40 player that would go on to have a NBA career in Greg Stiemsma never average more than 3.5 ppg in college? Must just be poor coaching, I guess.
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I think that a couple of posters, Texas and Ners, give us great insight into what people around players are telling them. And why the family and those around players can be detriments to the player.
We wonder why some players make poor decisions, just imagine a group of people like Ners around you telling you how great you are, how the coach's don't know what they are doing, etc, etc. Look at Ners approach to Dawson and imagine a group around you pumping you up and how the coach is an idiot and is out to get you, etc.
As for debating Ners, I know it is hard to stop, but face the facts that he never will and is not able to face the facts. You get drawn into a bad position of having to put down an MU player inorder to debate Ners. So, maybe stop. I know most of you don't want to put down JJJ over and over, but that is what you end up doing inorder to try to engage with Ners. It isn't worth it. Leave JJJ alone, even at the expense of having Ners assertions not being disproven.
I'm beyond tired of having Ners taking over scoop in thread after thread with the same stuff over and over and over. But the good news, is that I'm not visiting here as often, which can only be a good thing.
LOL - You think Jameel McKay is thinking: Damn, I sure screwed up leaving Marquette? Think Burton or Dawson are thinking "Damn wish I was still at MU," seeing MU at 10-12, 2-8 in conference play? Nothing better than showing up to practice, and riding the bench 20+ minutes per game, on a losing team, behind a highly ineffective vet - that apparently does a better job of acting as if they are hustling and playing to the scouting report - yet largely produces nothing in the box score of any significance.
I guess some here would stick around their organization for a butt plugging, rather than take their talents elsewhere where a different organization/leader can recognize those talents and utilize them effectively.
And PS - Nothing has been disproven about JJJ. They guy has so much more business being on the basketball court at this point than Derrick Wilson, it is laughable Wojo still can't adapt...just as laughable that the same usual suspects can't see the folly of their ways, and the ways of our head coach.
But let's face it: Because coaches are paid millions of dollars - it absolves them of EVER making wrong decisions. Even when your record is 2-8 in conference play.
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It actually would be fun to see Derrick become a 'chucker' for one game. But that'll never happen as he's the son of an army discipline.
No, actually it would not be "fun". More like Brutal.
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LOL - You think Jameel McKay is thinking: Damn, I sure screwed up leaving Marquette? Think Burton or Dawson are thinking "Damn wish I was still at MU," seeing MU at 10-12, 2-8 in conference play? Nothing better than showing up to practice, and riding the bench 20+ minutes per game, on a losing team, behind a highly ineffective vet - that apparently does a better job of acting as if they are hustling and playing to the scouting report - yet largely produces nothing in the box score of any significance.
I guess some here would stick around their organization for a butt plugging, rather than take their talents elsewhere where a different organization/leader can recognize those talents and utilize them effectively.
And PS - Nothing has been disproven about JJJ. They guy has so much more business being on the basketball court at this point than Derrick Wilson, it is laughable Wojo still can't adapt...just as laughable that the same usual suspects can't see the folly of their ways, and the ways of our head coach.
But let's face it: Because coaches are paid millions of dollars - it absolves them of EVER making wrong decisions. Even when your record is 2-8 in conference play.
McKay has nothing to do with the conversation as he left under Buzz. We have no idea how Burton is going to perform elsewhere, and Dawson had to go to a school that's made the dance 3 times in 20 years to get playing time.
JJJ's first play in the game was throwing it to Derrick while he was out of bounds. Where was his tight leash then?
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LOL - You think Jameel McKay is thinking: Damn, I sure screwed up leaving Marquette? Think Burton or Dawson are thinking "Damn wish I was still at MU," seeing MU at 10-12, 2-8 in conference play?
No. But Jameel McKay is probably thinking, damn, I wish I didn't have to sit out for a year and a half and waste a half of year of eligibility. He probably would have even more minutes here than at Iowa state if that was his priority. And who knows? I think with a dominant rebounder like McKay on the squad, we might have had a much better last two years.
Dawson will probably be happier at Liberty but a player who needed to transfer to a Big South bottomfeeder that is graduating four of its starters this seasons to find playing time probably wasn't good enough for Marquette anyway.
Burton I'm sure will be happier elsewhere. It sounds like he needed to get away from Milwaukee after his mother's passing. But I think he would have been a star here if he had stayed. Luke's arrival would have shifted him over to the three and I think he would have returned to the Burton we knew and loved. He was simply getting outmuscled and outsized at the four position. But with our roster, what else could we do? I think next season could have been something really special with Duane, Burton, Henry, and Luke.
But it's not just about transfers. Outside influences can have negative impact on players even if they stay. It's better to trust the coach. They are going to knew more than any outside influences 99% of the time
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His career isn't over. The same could be asked of Butch.
Good point. Bigs do take longer to develop. There is still time for Johnson though.
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JjJ still has a lot of work to do. If he truly buys what Wojo is selling I think he can be a contributor in his last 2 years.
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McKay has nothing to do with the conversation as he left under Buzz. We have no idea how Burton is going to perform elsewhere, and Dawson had to go to a school that's made the dance 3 times in 20 years to get playing time.
JJJ's first play in the game was throwing it to Derrick while he was out of bounds. Where was his tight leash then?
McKay is relevant because the point being made was "kids making bad decisions to transfer" based on feedback from friends/family. Burton will do just fine at ISU. Will be a star. Dawson will do just fine at Liberty.
As for JJJ throwing it to Derrick in first play of the game. Looked to me like that was a designed intention/play - as upon catching it immediately, without any hesitation JJJ threw it back to Derrick. And Derrick certainly didn't seem surprised by the pass coming to him whatsoever. But, perhaps JJJ just made that play on his own thinking it was a good idea/play. Who knows. Wojo did do a better job of extending the leash for JJJ last night.
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No. But Jameel McKay is probably thinking, damn, I wish I didn't have to sit out for a year and a half and waste a half of year of eligibility. He probably would have even more minutes here than at Iowa state if that was his priority. And who knows? I think with a dominant rebounder like McKay on the squad, we might have had a much better last two years.
Dawson will probably be happier at Liberty but a player who needed to transfer to a Big South bottomfeeder that is graduating four of its starters this seasons to find playing time probably wasn't good enough for Marquette anyway.
Burton I'm sure will be happier elsewhere. It sounds like he needed to get away from Milwaukee after his mother's passing. But I think he would have been a star here if he had stayed. Luke's arrival would have shifted him over to the three and I think he would have returned to the Burton we knew and loved. He was simply getting outmuscled and outsized at the four position. But with our roster, what else could we do? I think next season could have been something really special with Duane, Burton, Henry, and Luke.
But it's not just about transfers. Outside influences can have negative impact on players even if they stay. It's better to trust the coach. They are going to knew more than any outside influences 99% of the time
And yes, that is a big sacrifice - to sit out for 1.5 years and waste a half a year of eligibility. Speaks to how bad McKay, Burton and Dawson all perceived their situations to be.
You can keep believing the burn no bridges quotes Deonte made to the Journal Sentinel. If he was happy with his role, and felt Wojo was a good fit for him as a coach - he would have stayed at MU. Period. It had nothing to do with "needing to get away from Milwaukee."
I do agree with you that the below lineup would have been really fun to see develop next season, not to mention how good they could be in 2016-2017. We still should be pretty darn good in 2016-2017 assuming Duane, JJJ and Henry are all still here.
Duane
JJJ/Cohen
Burton
Henry
Luke
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Good point. Bigs do take longer to develop. There is still time for Johnson though.
...and some don't develop at all.
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You can keep believing the burn no bridges quotes Deonte made to the Journal Sentinel. If he was happy with his role, and felt Wojo was a good fit for him as a coach - he would have stayed at MU. Period. It had nothing to do with "needing to get away from Milwaukee."
In other words, Wojo threw him under the bus.
(am I doing it right?)
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You can keep believing the burn no bridges quotes Deonte made to the Journal Sentinel. If he was happy with his role, and felt Wojo was a good fit for him as a coach - he would have stayed at MU. Period. It had nothing to do with "needing to get away from Milwaukee."
And you know this.... how?
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And you know this.... how?
(http://www.freshnessmag.com/v4/wp-gallery/nov_06/destroyers/varsity-1.jpg)
Players gotta stick together.
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In other words, Wojo threw him under the bus.
(am I doing it right?)
I battle with Ners as much as anyone, but if you, TAMU and others really believe Deonte left school, his teammates and the basketball court for a year to get to Ames and out of Milwaukee, well, I don't know what to say other than I have some desert land due for irrigation soon to sell you and it's a steal.
I'm not saying Wojo threw him or Dawson under the bus, but I think it's obvious to all that both of their roles turned out to be smaller/different in November than we/they thought from April-October. To their credit, everyone (Deonte, John, their families and Wojo himself) took the high road when they left but these guys are basketball players and they left for basketball reasons - no matter what the press releases said.
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Wojo did do a better job of extending the leash for JJJ last night.
Glad you approved. Though I think JjJ got minutes because of the type of game it was. Yes, he made 2 threes but his D was non-existent. My guess is in a close game, you would not have approved of the length of the leash.
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I battle with Ners as much as anyone, but if you, TAMU and others really believe Deonte left school, his teammates and the basketball court for a year to get to Ames and out of Milwaukee, well, I don't know what to say other than I have some desert land due for irrigation soon to sell you and it's a steal.
I'm not saying Wojo threw him or Dawson under the bus, but I think it's obvious to all that both of their roles turned out to be smaller/different in November than we/they thought from April-October. To their credit, everyone (Deonte, John, their families and Wojo himself) took the high road when they left but these guys are basketball players and they left for basketball reasons - no matter what the press releases said.
I think it's absolutely fair to say that Deonte was unhappy at MU. Basketball and MU's new head coach certainly play a role in that. Maybe even the primary role. Totally fair.
But, this idea that Wojo "threw Deonte under the bus" is silly.
Deonte no longer thought MU was the best fit for him, so he transferred.
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I think it's absolutely fair to say that Deonte was unhappy at MU. Basketball and MU's new head coach certainly play a role in that. Maybe even the primary role. Totally fair.
But, this idea that Wojo "threw Deonte under the bus" is silly.
Deonte no longer thought MU was the best fit for him, so he transferred.
Agreed.
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I'm not saying Wojo threw him or Dawson under the bus, but I think it's obvious to all that both of their roles turned out to be smaller/different in November than we/they thought from April-October. To their credit, everyone (Deonte, John, their families and Wojo himself) took the high road when they left but these guys are basketball players and they left for basketball reasons - no matter what the press releases said.
All they had to do was play better. Except in rare cases, players determine their role on the team.
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You can keep believing the burn no bridges quotes Deonte made to the Journal Sentinel. If he was happy with his role, and felt Wojo was a good fit for him as a coach - he would have stayed at MU. Period. It had nothing to do with "needing to get away from Milwaukee."
I battle with Ners as much as anyone, but if you, TAMU and others really believe Deonte left school, his teammates and the basketball court for a year to get to Ames and out of Milwaukee, well, I don't know what to say other than I have some desert land due for irrigation soon to sell you and it's a steal.
I'm not saying Wojo threw him or Dawson under the bus, but I think it's obvious to all that both of their roles turned out to be smaller/different in November than we/they thought from April-October. To their credit, everyone (Deonte, John, their families and Wojo himself) took the high road when they left but these guys are basketball players and they left for basketball reasons - no matter what the press releases said.
Why is it so hard to believe that it is possible the Deonte wanted to leave because being in Milwaukee was painful to him after the passing of his mother? It seems completely reasonable to me. I don't actually believe it was the only reason. But that is my belief, not a fact. I also do truly believe that if Deonte's mother hadn't passed, he would have never transferred. That's one of the reasons I don't put much blame on Wojo.
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Why is it so hard to believe that it is possible the Deonte wanted to leave because being in Milwaukee was painful to him after the passing of his mother? It seems completely reasonable to me. I don't actually believe it was the only reason. But that is my belief, not a fact. I also do truly believe that if Deonte's mother hadn't passed, he would have never transferred. That's one of the reasons I don't put much blame on Wojo.
Exactly - people are absolutely underselling the impact losing his mother could have had on him. I'm in my upper 30s and losing my mother now would be devastating to me. I can't imagine what he was going through as a 19-20 year old kid.
Maybe if things were going really well on the team he would have stayed in spite of her passing. I am not saying his dissatisfaction with the team had no impact on his decision. However, to state as fact that his transfer "had nothing to do with needing to get away from Milwaukee", unless he told someone that personally, is completely idiotic. Sometimes you do just want to get away from a place that reminds of you something very painful.
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Why is it so hard to believe that it is possible the Deonte wanted to leave because being in Milwaukee was painful to him after the passing of his mother? It seems completely reasonable to me. I don't actually believe it was the only reason. But that is my belief, not a fact. I also do truly believe that if Deonte's mother hadn't passed, he would have never transferred. That's one of the reasons I don't put much blame on Wojo.
I think it was a combination of the two. He was dealing with difficult issues and unhappy with his role on the team.
In the end he decided to transfer. That is not a negative on anyone, especially not Wojo. He expects players to be disciplined and skilled.
Burton was highly skilled and highly undisciplined. So he didn't play a lot.
JJJ has extreme potential (athletically gifted) but is highly undisciplined. So he doesn't play a lot now.
Both can/could reflect on their game and try to improve as players (more disciplined), I think JJJ is working on it, but is struggling with it. Burton decided he would rather leave. He now has an entire year to work on being more disciplined without being frustrated with playing time. If he learns to be disciplined on the court he will have a long and successful career.
If he doesn't learn discipline, he'll either sit the bench, or score a lot on an undisciplined team and never make the NBA.
The coach constructs a system. He works with the players to adapt to the system. It is on the player to make an effort to do everything they can to play their role, if they are unhappy with their role, they can transfer.
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Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position. The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis. As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton). So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.
I'm not sure what your relationship is with players on the team. It seems you have some relationship to Jajuan, even though you've been on this board longer than his time here and you refuse to tell anyone what that relationship is. Because of you and Ners I try to stay away from any thread that picks up pages and pages of content, so I'm a fews days late. But I went back and read this post. Plain and simple, you are lying. You are literally spewing garbage each thread.
Wojo is a good man and he is creating the RIGHT CULTURE here at MU. A damn good one from all accounts that I've heard. Something we desperately needed after Buzz nearly sunk our entire program in with his constant bullcrap (or do you miss Marquette being plastered all over the front page of the Chicago Tribune because our coach covered up a rape scandal here on campus?). I've already offered up opinions of a current manager who contradicts every single thing you say about our coaches and their relationships with our players. I'll go further to dispel the notion that Buzz was a caring, genuine man. I was a manager for Buzz and it was dreadful. He is an egomaniacal prick who only looked out for himself, and couldn't have been more of an actor when it came to his press conferences. As Chicos has stated, "he knew when the cameras were on". Unless you were a Jimmy, DJO, Jae, Vander, Junior caliber player on this team, Buzz had absolutely no one's back (and couldn't help but run a program that CONTINUALLY had problems and stories arise). Treated fringe players poorly, managers even worse, and wouldn't even acknowledge other sports in the athletic department (as some have also said on this board). You "claim" Wojo is willing to throw people under the bus. At no point have you proven this. But we can prove that Buzz was willing to throw just about anybody under the bus to fit his needs. Whether that be taking away D.J. Newbill's scholarship to make room for Jamil or his best friend, Scott Monarch, being dismissed.
Point being, you don't know what you are talking about. Or you are conjuring up one hell of a troll job. The culture under Buzz was pathetic, even when the results were outstanding. To a man (or woman), every person I have spoken with, whether that be on the team, or a manager on the team, or someone who plays sports and goes to the Al, someone who works in the athletic department, friends who work in the office - every last person - says the difference in culture is night and day. Wojo has come in and turned turned the whole thing around already. So stop lying about things you don't know. Quit creating narratives like Ners. Wojo goes about his business the right way, and once we get the horses, we'll see the results on the court to boot. Of that, I have no worries.
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Wojo is a good man and he is creating the RIGHT CULTURE here at MU. A damn good one from all accounts that I've heard. Something we desperately needed after Buzz nearly sunk our entire program in with his constant bullcrap (or do you miss Marquette being plastered all over the front page of the Chicago Tribune because our coach covered up a rape scandal here on campus?).
Your whole post was excellent, but this part was the best, and in essence, my response to TW. It's just got sickening him character assaninate a good man like Wojo, of which no evidence exists.
Well done, onepost!
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The culture under Buzz was pathetic, even when the results were outstanding. To a man (or woman), every person I have spoken with, whether that be on the team, or a manager on the team, or someone who plays sports and goes to the Al, someone who works in the athletic department, friends who work in the office - every last person - says the difference in culture is night and day.
There's been no indication since's Buzz's departure that MU made any effort to change his mind, offer him up something to stay, etc. The above and the other crap under Buzz is clearly why.
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There's been no indication since's Buzz's departure that MU made any effort to change his mind, offer him up something to stay, etc. The above and the other crap under Buzz is clearly why.
Onepostellenson is exactly right about Buzz. The athletic department could not stand Buzz and they are thrilled he split. TW is making up plenty of garbage. Pathetic. Him and Ners make this place borderline unreadable.
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I'm not sure what your relationship is with players on the team. It seems you have some relationship to Jajuan, even though you've been on this board longer than his time here and you refuse to tell anyone what that relationship is. Because of you and Ners I try to stay away from any thread that picks up pages and pages of content, so I'm a fews days late. But I went back and read this post. Plain and simple, you are lying. You are literally spewing garbage each thread.
Wojo is a good man and he is creating the RIGHT CULTURE here at MU. A damn good one from all accounts that I've heard. Something we desperately needed after Buzz nearly sunk our entire program in with his constant bullcrap (or do you miss Marquette being plastered all over the front page of the Chicago Tribune because our coach covered up a rape scandal here on campus?). I've already offered up opinions of a current manager who contradicts every single thing you say about our coaches and their relationships with our players. I'll go further to dispel the notion that Buzz was a caring, genuine man. I was a manager for Buzz and it was dreadful. He is an egomaniacal prick who only looked out for himself, and couldn't have been more of an actor when it came to his press conferences. As Chicos has stated, "he knew when the cameras were on". Unless you were a Jimmy, DJO, Jae, Vander, Junior caliber player on this team, Buzz had absolutely no one's back (and couldn't help but run a program that CONTINUALLY had problems and stories arise). Treated fringe players poorly, managers even worse, and wouldn't even acknowledge other sports in the athletic department (as some have also said on this board). You "claim" Wojo is willing to throw people under the bus. At no point have you proven this. But we can prove that Buzz was willing to throw just about anybody under the bus to fit his needs. Whether that be taking away D.J. Newbill's scholarship to make room for Jamil or his best friend, Scott Monarch, being dismissed.
Point being, you don't know what you are talking about. Or you are conjuring up one hell of a troll job. The culture under Buzz was pathetic, even when the results were outstanding. To a man (or woman), every person I have spoken with, whether that be on the team, or a manager on the team, or someone who plays sports and goes to the Al, someone who works in the athletic department, friends who work in the office - every last person - says the difference in culture is night and day. Wojo has come in and turned turned the whole thing around already. So stop lying about things you don't know. Quit creating narratives like Ners. Wojo goes about his business the right way, and once we get the horses, we'll see the results on the court to boot. Of that, I have no worries.
Refreshing, once again, to have the facts of the case
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Man, this place gets nasty when we suck.
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I think it's absolutely fair to say that Deonte was unhappy at MU. Basketball and MU's new head coach certainly play a role in that. Maybe even the primary role. Totally fair.
But, this idea that Wojo "threw Deonte under the bus" is silly.
Deonte no longer thought MU was the best fit for him, so he transferred.
The term phrase "throw Deonte under the bus" is probably not the right cliche to describe the situation. The issue was this:
Wojo upon his hire told Deonte he was expecting big things from him and for him to be a MAJOR contributor on the team.
The team and Wojo were supportive obviously at the time of the passing of Deonte's Mom.
Where the disconnect occurred is Deonte felt he'd be playing 30 minutes per game, and when his role was drastically less than that - he grew frustrated. When you combine his frustration over his role/playing time - (basketball) the one thing that he loved in life besides his Mom along with losing his Mom - he was very unhappy. Furthermore, he and Dawson were very close, and Deonte though John got the shaft pretty good. So, in Deonte's view of Wojo, he felt he would have a much bigger role and then when his best friend on the team seemingly got the shaft - he lost buy in for Wojo. Felt the talk of it being a family, etc rang hollow.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Sh$t happens. My frustration with the whole situation has been the callous response a good chunk of posters have had here. I've read everything from we are better off without him, to he wasn't very good, Wojo will find someone better, etc. Losing an All Big East freshman that virtually ever color commentator from Kevin O'Neill to Bill Rafferty felt was going to be a star - was a big loss.
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The term phrase "throw Deonte under the bus" is probably not the right cliche to describe the situation. The issue was this:
Wojo upon his hire told Deonte he was expecting big things from him and for him to be a MAJOR contributor on the team.
The team and Wojo were supportive obviously at the time of the passing of Deonte's Mom.
Where the disconnect occurred is Deonte felt he'd be playing 30 minutes per game, and when his role was drastically less than that - he grew frustrated. When you combine his frustration over his role/playing time - (basketball) the one thing that he loved in life besides his Mom along with losing his Mom - he was very unhappy. Furthermore, he and Dawson were very close, and Deonte though John got the shaft pretty good. So, in Deonte's view of Wojo, he felt he would have a much bigger role and then when his best friend on the team seemingly got the shaft - he lost buy in for Wojo. Felt the talk of it being a family, etc rang hollow.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Sh$t happens. My frustration with the whole situation has been the callous response a good chunk of posters have had here. I've read everything from we are better off without him, to he wasn't very good, Wojo will find someone better, etc. Losing an All Big East freshman that virtually ever color commentator from Kevin O'Neill to Bill Rafferty felt was going to be a star - was a big loss.
Ahh, so when virtually every commentator from O'Neill to Raftery talk about Derrick and how important to the team he is and how much he brings to the table it's just "coach's speak" so to say, but when it's about somebody you like then the they know everything and we should bow and kiss their feet. Have it both ways, kid.
Par for the course for you. You make this place entirely unbearable to come to. So I suppose I should be thanking you for freeing up a ton of my time. Appreciate it.
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The term phrase "throw Deonte under the bus" is probably not the right cliche to describe the situation. The issue was this:
Wojo upon his hire told Deonte he was expecting big things from him and for him to be a MAJOR contributor on the team.
The team and Wojo were supportive obviously at the time of the passing of Deonte's Mom.
Where the disconnect occurred is Deonte felt he'd be playing 30 minutes per game, and when his role was drastically less than that - he grew frustrated. When you combine his frustration over his role/playing time - (basketball) the one thing that he loved in life besides his Mom along with losing his Mom - he was very unhappy. Furthermore, he and Dawson were very close, and Deonte though John got the shaft pretty good. So, in Deonte's view of Wojo, he felt he would have a much bigger role and then when his best friend on the team seemingly got the shaft - he lost buy in for Wojo. Felt the talk of it being a family, etc rang hollow.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Sh$t happens. My frustration with the whole situation has been the callous response a good chunk of posters have had here. I've read everything from we are better off without him, to he wasn't very good, Wojo will find someone better, etc. Losing an All Big East freshman that virtually ever color commentator from Kevin O'Neill to Bill Rafferty felt was going to be a star - was a big loss.
Thank you for taking a step back and explaining. This is a point of view that makes sense to me. I don't agree with it, but its much more reasonable than the "threw him under the bus" comments.
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The term phrase "throw Deonte under the bus" is probably not the right cliche to describe the situation. The issue was this:
Wojo upon his hire told Deonte he was expecting big things from him and for him to be a MAJOR contributor on the team.
The team and Wojo were supportive obviously at the time of the passing of Deonte's Mom.
Where the disconnect occurred is Deonte felt he'd be playing 30 minutes per game, and when his role was drastically less than that - he grew frustrated. When you combine his frustration over his role/playing time - (basketball) the one thing that he loved in life besides his Mom along with losing his Mom - he was very unhappy. Furthermore, he and Dawson were very close, and Deonte though John got the shaft pretty good. So, in Deonte's view of Wojo, he felt he would have a much bigger role and then when his best friend on the team seemingly got the shaft - he lost buy in for Wojo. Felt the talk of it being a family, etc rang hollow.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Sh$t happens. My frustration with the whole situation has been the callous response a good chunk of posters have had here. I've read everything from we are better off without him, to he wasn't very good, Wojo will find someone better, etc. Losing an All Big East freshman that virtually ever color commentator from Kevin O'Neill to Bill Rafferty felt was going to be a star - was a big loss.
Agree with TAMU that this is a more reasoned response than your usual shoot-from-the-hip tripe, your name-calling and your vendettas. You can make some solid points when you aren't just throwing silly stuff out there.
Still ...
I think most of us can agree that Deonte wasn't "all there" right from the opening tip this season. This is completely understandable; I too have suffered the loss of loved ones and had long periods of mourning in which I wasn't quite right.
It certainly is Wojo's job to help players through difficult personal issues. However, Wojo's main job is to give each player a role that will help both the player and the team succeed. Deonte simply didn't play well. He was drifting through games. He was missing assignments. He wasn't rebounding. He wasn't playing defense. He wasn't a force on the low block. He wasn't helping the team.
Buzz didn't play Deonte nearly enough in the first 2/3 of last season, but when Deonte finally did get more of a chance, he earned the right to play more minutes.
Unfortunately, Deonte never earned many minutes this season. If that led to his disconnect with Wojo, oh well, that happens in sports. I'm guessing that it isn't the only thing that led to him leaving.
As to Deonte not being happy that his buddy Dawson was treated "unfairly," well, life is tough. Dawson is a Big South player, nothing more. He clearly was the ninth-best player on a nine-man team that needed maximum effort and performance from every player to win any game. If Wojo had thought, "I'd better give Dawson a few minutes to keep Deonte happy," that would have been horrendous coaching. I can't think of any D1 coach -- any successful one, anyway -- who would have done that.
I wish Deonte had stayed, and maybe Wojo could have communicated better or done some other things that would have led to Deonte staying-- or at least made leaving a more difficult decision. I'm not one of those saying, "Good riddance," or "We're better without him." I'm saying, "This stuff happens in college basketball." There are hundreds of transfers a year; some have benefited us (most recently, Fischer), some haven't.
It's time to move on. Nothing we debate here will bring Deonte back. I am very high on the future of Marquette basketball.
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Wojo told Deonte he was going to be a big part of the team this season. Deonte feels he didn't get what he was expecting from Wojo. Did Wojo get what he was expecting from Deonte?
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Ahh, so when virtually every commentator from O'Neill to Raftery Dickie Simpkins to Dickie Simpkins talk about Derrick and how important to the team he is and how much he brings to the table it's just "coach's speak" so to say, but when it's about somebody you like then the they know everything and we should bow and kiss their feet. Have it both ways, kid.
Par for the course for you. You make this place entirely unbearable to come to. So I suppose I should be thanking you for freeing up a ton of my time. Appreciate it.
Fixed for you.
And you are welcome for freeing up your time, kid. Though you'll be missed - because what this board needs more than anything else is need another guy here to tell us how much Derrick Wilson "brings to the table."
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Wojo told Deonte he was going to be a big part of the team this season. Deonte feels he didn't get what he was expecting from Wojo. Did Wojo get what he was expecting from Deonte?
No, he didn't.
Despite some posters' hypotheticals that they present as facts, we'll likely never know if Deonte was distracted, wanted to leave Milwaukee and never really got into the flow this season as a result or if he grew disenchanted with Wojo because he expected to play a bigger role early in the season. It's possible that if he was given 30 minutes/game, he would have been happy and stayed. It's also very possible that no amount of PT was going to keep him in Milwaukee.
As it turned out, he transferred and hopefully it will be for the best - he gets out of Milwaukee and he should, in theory, get more PT.
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Ners, serious questions for you, and your answer can't be it's because he didn't get enough time on the court during games.
When Deonte played this year for MU, how did he play? Was he engaged? Did he play good D or did he miss his assignments? Did he box out and rebound well? If you had to grade his performance for the time he did play, what would you give him?
My point is that I don't doubt when Wojo came to Marquette, he saw Deonte as a first team Big East freshman last year and that he needed him to produce this year. I'm betting that Wojo told him he's going to be a major part of the team. But for whatever reason, probably because of his Mother's passing, Deonte's play wasn't what Wojo anticipated it should be. It wasn't what the rest of the coaching staff thought they were getting before the season started. So when DB played, and he missed his defensive assignments, didn't play a factor on the boards and otherwise looked lost at times, he didn't get as much run.
Your point on DB seems to be, because Wojo told him he'd be a big part of this team, Wojo should have played him regardless of his performance on the court. Do you honestly feel that Deonte then could coast, or should be able to do whatever he wanted (including not play up to his potential) and still get the time on the court he was supposedly promised?
If your answers to the questions are that you think Deonte Burton was outstanding when he played this year, that he earned the right to be on the court a lot more, not because of his potential, because of how he played this year, and therefore Wojo lied to him, you're more delusional than I thought.
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Thank you for taking a step back and explaining. This is a point of view that makes sense to me. I don't agree with it, but its much more reasonable than the "threw him under the bus" comments.
I actually think Ners is fairly accurate in his assessment. That being said, I don't think that means that one party was "right" and the other was "wrong." New coaches have different expectations. Certain players had no trouble adapting to those. Others didn't. That's life. Just like a workplace when you get a new boss.
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I actually think Ners is fairly accurate in his assessment. That being said, I don't think that means that one party was "right" and the other was "wrong." New coaches have different expectations. Certain players had no trouble adapting to those. Others didn't. That's life. Just like a workplace when you get a new boss.
I think he's accurate as well. But I don't agree with the implication that Wojo did wrong because he went back on his promise. It was not a promise of playing time, it was an agreement. You give me the kind of production I expect, I will give you the playing time you expect.
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Ners, serious questions for you, and your answer can't be it's because he didn't get enough time on the court during games.
When Deonte played this year for MU, how did he play? Was he engaged? Did he play good D or did he miss his assignments? Did he box out and rebound well? If you had to grade his performance for the time he did play, what would you give him?
My point is that I don't doubt when Wojo came to Marquette, he saw Deonte as a first team Big East freshman last year and that he needed him to produce this year. I'm betting that Wojo told him he's going to be a major part of the team. But for whatever reason, probably because of his Mother's passing, Deonte's play wasn't what Wojo anticipated it should be. It wasn't what the rest of the coaching staff thought they were getting before the season started. So when DB played, and he missed his defensive assignments, didn't play a factor on the boards and otherwise looked lost at times, he didn't get as much run.
Your point on DB seems to be, because Wojo told him he'd be a big part of this team, Wojo should have played him regardless of his performance on the court. Do you honestly feel that Deonte then could coast, or should be able to do whatever he wanted (including not play up to his potential) and still get the time on the court he was supposedly promised?
If your answers to the questions are that you think Deonte Burton was outstanding when he played this year, that he earned the right to be on the court a lot more, not because of his potential, because of how he played this year, and therefore Wojo lied to him, you're more delusional than I thought.
You've hit the nail on the head here Lighthouse. I was typing up a response similar to this, but could not put it into words as articulate as this.
I think there were several reasons DB was struggling this year on the court. His mother's passing being one, possibly playing in a new system being another, and playing out of position being another. I really thought once Luke became available that we would see a sharp increase in DB's productivity as he could shift to the 3.
I wish he was still here at MU, but don't blame him for wanting to transfer. I wish him the best at Iowa State and I'm sure we will see some great stat lines and some highlight reel dunks coming from over there.
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The term phrase "throw Deonte under the bus" is probably not the right cliche to describe the situation. The issue was this:
Wojo upon his hire told Deonte he was expecting big things from him and for him to be a MAJOR contributor on the team.
The team and Wojo were supportive obviously at the time of the passing of Deonte's Mom.
Where the disconnect occurred is Deonte felt he'd be playing 30 minutes per game, and when his role was drastically less than that - he grew frustrated. When you combine his frustration over his role/playing time - (basketball) the one thing that he loved in life besides his Mom along with losing his Mom - he was very unhappy. Furthermore, he and Dawson were very close, and Deonte though John got the shaft pretty good. So, in Deonte's view of Wojo, he felt he would have a much bigger role and then when his best friend on the team seemingly got the shaft - he lost buy in for Wojo. Felt the talk of it being a family, etc rang hollow.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Sh$t happens. My frustration with the whole situation has been the callous response a good chunk of posters have had here. I've read everything from we are better off without him, to he wasn't very good, Wojo will find someone better, etc. Losing an All Big East freshman that virtually ever color commentator from Kevin O'Neill to Bill Rafferty felt was going to be a star - was a big loss.
#1 This is a reasonable response, and most posters are going to agree with it.
#2 I don't think there were a lot of posters saying MU was better off without him. If there were, feel free to blast those people because that is stupid.
#3 (this is where we fundamentally disagree) Playing time is earned, not given. If Deonte was unhappy with his minutes, he just needed to play better. Sandy Cohen, Steve Taylor and Luke are PERFECT examples. When Sandy performs well, he gets additional player time. Same for Steve. Against SJU, steve got a lot of minutes. Luke came off of the bench initially, and performed well. Now he's a starter. Again, this is just where you and I fundamentally disagree. We don't need to rehash the whole thing.
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Ners, serious questions for you, and your answer can't be it's because he didn't get enough time on the court during games.
When Deonte played this year for MU, how did he play? Was he engaged? Did he play good D or did he miss his assignments? Did he box out and rebound well? If you had to grade his performance for the time he did play, what would you give him?
My point is that I don't doubt when Wojo came to Marquette, he saw Deonte as a first team Big East freshman last year and that he needed him to produce this year. I'm betting that Wojo told him he's going to be a major part of the team. But for whatever reason, probably because of his Mother's passing, Deonte's play wasn't what Wojo anticipated it should be. It wasn't what the rest of the coaching staff thought they were getting before the season started. So when DB played, and he missed his defensive assignments, didn't play a factor on the boards and otherwise looked lost at times, he didn't get as much run.
Your point on DB seems to be, because Wojo told him he'd be a big part of this team, Wojo should have played him regardless of his performance on the court. Do you honestly feel that Deonte then could coast, or should be able to do whatever he wanted (including not play up to his potential) and still get the time on the court he was supposedly promised?
If your answers to the questions are that you think Deonte Burton was outstanding when he played this year, that he earned the right to be on the court a lot more, not because of his potential, because of how he played this year, and therefore Wojo lied to him, you're more delusional than I thought.
Did I feel Deonte rebounded well/to his potential this season or last season for that matter? No.
Do I feel Deonte "looked engaged?" In my view, Deonte looked the same this season as he did last season. Deonte is a guy who will never look uber intense. D-Wade never looked uber intense. Paul George doesn't. Some guys just don't have that personality type.
Sometimes people mistake activity for production. At times Deonte was out of position on defense. The same can apply to virtually everyone on this team or last year's at times. Boxing out hasn't been a strength of anyone on the team this year - and becomes much more difficult when primarily playing zone defense. Yet with Deonte, he was in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in steal percentage as a freshman. Top 50 players in Block percentage. Deonte had very good defensive instincts and was disruptive, yet was not a great on ball defender. However, there was defensive production.
In my view, with regard to Deonte's playing time - No, you don't "give" playing time to a kid who isn't worthy, or producing on the floor. Yet, if anyone should get a longer leash, it would be a guy who IS dealing with the loss of his mother, who has also shown some SERIOUS potential as a player, and has probably the highest upside of any player on your team. Furthermore, for as "BAD" as many want to paint Deonte's play this year, the guy did still shoot 47.8% from the field, 40% from 3, and 77% from the FT line.
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If Burton did leave with his role on the floor as a significant factor, I wish he had stayed until Fischer was eligible to play but I suspect that isn't why he left as he knew as well as the rest of us that his role would change at that point i.e. playing more at his natural position.
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Sometimes people mistake activity for production. At times Deonte was out of position on defense. The same can apply to virtually everyone on this team or last year's at times. Boxing out hasn't been a strength of anyone on the team this year - and becomes much more difficult when primarily playing zone defense. Yet with Deonte, he was in the Top 10 of ALL college basketball players in steal percentage as a freshman. Top 50 players in Block percentage. Deonte had very good defensive instincts and was disruptive, yet was not a great on ball defender. However, there was defensive production.
Yes, those were some great numbers from last year. But in the minutes he had this year, this was not the case.
In my view, with regard to Deonte's playing time - No, you don't "give" playing time to a kid who isn't worthy, or producing on the floor. Yet, if anyone should get a longer leash, it would be a guy who IS dealing with the loss of his mother, who has also shown some SERIOUS potential as a player, and has probably the highest upside of any player on your team. Furthermore, for as "BAD" as many want to paint Deonte's play this year, the guy did still shoot 47.8% from the field, 40% from 3, and 77% from the FT line.
I know that that is really difficult to deal with, but I don't get at all how this factors into giving him more PT. If his minutes are not that effective, you don't play him more simply because he is dealing with the loss of his mother.
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In my view, with regard to Deonte's playing time - No, you don't "give" playing time to a kid who isn't worthy, or producing on the floor. Yet, if anyone should get a longer leash, it would be a guy who IS dealing with the loss of his mother, who has also shown some SERIOUS potential as a player, and has probably the highest upside of any player on your team. Furthermore, for as "BAD" as many want to paint Deonte's play this year, the guy did still shoot 47.8% from the field, 40% from 3, and 77% from the FT line.
I don't disagree, but I guess we define "longer leash" differently.
I think having Deonte on the team and supporting him is a pretty big deal and very important for a kid who lost his mother.
I don't think giving Deonte 10 more MPG because he had some personal struggles is appropriate, and I don't expect a coach to do that.
Deonte wasn't very effective, so his minutes weren't as high as he or Wojo likely anticipated.
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I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year. And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game. The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes. Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom. In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling. Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.
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I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year. And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game. The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes. Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom. In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling. Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.
I don't know that a lot of posters are saying he was awful. He just wasn't playing better than a 15 minute per game player. As has been mentioned, maybe he would have once Luke started playing, but we'll never know.
And the only thing that should warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game is better production when he was on the court.
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I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year. And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game. The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes. Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom. In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling. Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.
This is just where we fundamentally disagree.
I'm completely sympathetic to DB's situation. It's tragic. In my mind, this year was a "Free pass". He just didn't look right on the court.
BUT, that doesn't mean Wojo should have given him 15 MORE minutes per game. Has nothing to do with Derrick, or JJJ, or anything like that. Has everything to do with DB. He was getting the amount of PT that he earned. If he needed some time off, or extra support from the coaches, then so be it. But, I don't think you can give him more PT because he has some off the court stuff.
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At some point doesn't Ners need to show us news clips, yearbook pictures, all conference trophies. Something.
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At some point doesn't Ners need to show us news clips, yearbook pictures, all conference trophies. Something.
No. You need to play him one on one. That is how the game of basketball is played, and he needs to put you in your place.
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No. You need to play him one on one. That is how the game of basketball is played, and he needs to put you in your place.
My winter sport was wrestling. Ners could suck and beat me. Doesn't prove anything.
Wrestlers all wanted to play hoop cause that's where the chicks were. My wife was a basketball cheerleader and didn't follow wrestling at all. I lucked out with her.
PS. I still understand basketball better than Ners because I understand that there is O and D. Ya gotta play both.
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My winter sport was wrestling. Ners could suck and beat me. Doesn't prove anything.
Wrestlers all wanted to play hoop cause that's where the chicks were. My wife was a basketball cheerleader and didn't follow wrestling at all. I lucked out with her.
PS. I still understand basketball better than Ners because I understand that there is O and D. Ya gotta play both.
Nice work on landing your wife. Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match. Why? Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts. Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?
Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times. And largely if it weren't for one particular player, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.
And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year. We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.
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Nice work on landing your wife. Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match. Why? Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts. Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?
Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times. And largely if it weren't for one particular player, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.
And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year. We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.
Now Ners--a wrestler that is struggling over and over doesn't matter, if the coach says he is elite. You, by now, should know that--even if the performance of that guy actually is not that. Get with the conventional narrative!
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I'm not sure what your relationship is with players on the team. It seems you have some relationship to Jajuan, even though you've been on this board longer than his time here and you refuse to tell anyone what that relationship is. Because of you and Ners I try to stay away from any thread that picks up pages and pages of content, so I'm a fews days late. But I went back and read this post. Plain and simple, you are lying. You are literally spewing garbage each thread.
Wojo is a good man and he is creating the RIGHT CULTURE here at MU. A damn good one from all accounts that I've heard. Something we desperately needed after Buzz nearly sunk our entire program in with his constant bullcrap (or do you miss Marquette being plastered all over the front page of the Chicago Tribune because our coach covered up a rape scandal here on campus?). I've already offered up opinions of a current manager who contradicts every single thing you say about our coaches and their relationships with our players. I'll go further to dispel the notion that Buzz was a caring, genuine man. I was a manager for Buzz and it was dreadful. He is an egomaniacal prick who only looked out for himself, and couldn't have been more of an actor when it came to his press conferences. As Chicos has stated, "he knew when the cameras were on". Unless you were a Jimmy, DJO, Jae, Vander, Junior caliber player on this team, Buzz had absolutely no one's back (and couldn't help but run a program that CONTINUALLY had problems and stories arise). Treated fringe players poorly, managers even worse, and wouldn't even acknowledge other sports in the athletic department (as some have also said on this board). You "claim" Wojo is willing to throw people under the bus. At no point have you proven this. But we can prove that Buzz was willing to throw just about anybody under the bus to fit his needs. Whether that be taking away D.J. Newbill's scholarship to make room for Jamil or his best friend, Scott Monarch, being dismissed.
Point being, you don't know what you are talking about. Or you are conjuring up one hell of a troll job. The culture under Buzz was pathetic, even when the results were outstanding. To a man (or woman), every person I have spoken with, whether that be on the team, or a manager on the team, or someone who plays sports and goes to the Al, someone who works in the athletic department, friends who work in the office - every last person - says the difference in culture is night and day. Wojo has come in and turned turned the whole thing around already. So stop lying about things you don't know. Quit creating narratives like Ners. Wojo goes about his business the right way, and once we get the horses, we'll see the results on the court to boot. Of that, I have no worries.
Excellent, excellent post to Texas Western. My two least favorite posters by far are TW and Ners and they do make people come on to MUScoop less than they normally would, myself included. However, where the two of them differ is TW is nowhere to be seen when questioned by someone and he will just wait until he has the chance to hijack another thread saying how awful of a person Wojo is. At least Ners really believes in all the stuff he posts and tries to defend his position, even though most of us disagree with his viewpoint. I don't believe Texas Western really believes the crap he posts and is most likely just one hell of a troll that enjoys ripping on the coach and certain players (Carlino) and tries to psychoanalyze one of our incoming freshman (NN) based on his tweet. As I have said many times, we are all going to have different opinions, but the constant ripping on Wojo for things that are not even close to being true and trying to make them sound like fact is what makes TW rise above Ners as the worst poster on here.
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I guess I just don't feel Deonte was as bad as some of you think he was this year. And given his high ceiling, the shaky production of those playing more minutes in front of him, along with the loss of his Mom - I think those are all conditions that warrant being given more than 15 minutes per game. The loss of his Mom in and of itself of course is not the reason you give him minutes. Yet, if his production/performance wasn't meeting Wojo's expectations/hopes, perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt/more rope as he was working through the loss of his Mom. In my view, talented players should have more slack and room for error if they are slumping/struggling. Yet again, looking at the shooting percentages, it's hard to say Deonte was really playing awful.
That would all be fine if the player is showing interest in improving, and progress at improving on his issues (aka defense and being dialed in when he doesn't have the ball). He wasn't showing improvement. Playing time then becomes a means to indicate the importance of buying into the team concepts.
You never give playing time/rope to a player that isn't buying in to the team concept, that is idiotic and leads to the downfall of even very skilled teams.
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I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match. Why? Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts.
Yet another silly strawman argument.
Basketball is on TV constantly. It is explained superbly by the better commentators. It is everywhere. By the time we have reached the stage of our lives when we are taking part in discourse on Scoop, many of us have: played basketball as kids; played intramural basketball in college; watched a ton of prep, college and/or pro basketball in person or on TV; coached our kids' teams; gotten to know players and/or coaches; and spent significant time having just these kinds of discussions. Oh, and many of us have played high school ball, too.
While I have never, ever seen a wrestling match, I'll bet that most wrestlers have at least casual knowledge of basketball and many have just as much (or more) knowledge about basketball as you or I do.
And then there's this: Basketball is a fairly easy game to learn.
I know, because I teach it to middle-school girls who have done a great job of picking up on the concepts. Exactly half of my 10-girl team had never played basketball before this season -- and I mean NEVER -- but they worked hard and improved quickly and we take a 13-3 record into the conference tournament. Two of those newbies start and two others are reserves who often play more than the starters.
They probably know as much about basketball as you do, too. OK ... maybe that's hyperbole, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't know more about basketball than you do about wrestling.
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Nice work on landing your wife. Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match. Why? Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts. Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?
Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times. And largely if it weren't for one particular player, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.
And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year. We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.
Honest question:
If 99% of the posters on this board didn't play hoops at a high level, and therefore aren't qualified to comment accurately, why do you even read this stuff?
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Honest question:
If 99% of the posters on this board didn't play hoops at a high level, and therefore aren't qualified to comment accurately, why do you even read this stuff?
Jesus didn't want to get hung up on a cross either. He did it for us.
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Honest question:
If 99% of the posters on this board didn't play hoops at a high level, and therefore aren't qualified to comment accurately, why do you even read this stuff?
I didn't say people aren't qualified to comment. And as I posted - saying what I said - does not mean "you" and others here don't make good points many times. I simply asked a question as to if it would not get annoying (to a wrestler) if me being a non-wrestler, continued to try to pound my position of a certain wrestler being good, despite consistently losing matches and being dominated by his opponent.
I enjoy reading the takes many people have here. I love MU Hoops - no better place to discuss it than right here. That's why I post here, read here, etc. Thankfully next season a huge source of the angst here will be gone.
And PS Guns: I had lots of PR experience coordinating player and coaches interviews with the media at the college and NBA level. Color commentators talk with coaches frequently to get their views on a team. I watched frequently at shoot around and the press room before games color guys talk with head coaches. When I say MU PR machine - it was more a reference to the feedback given to a media guy like Dickie Simpkins by our biggest mouthpiece - Wojo. Of course it isn't a case of MU issuing a press release or putting comments such as the ones made by Dickie Simpkins in the game notes for a contest...
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I didn't say people aren't qualified to comment. And as I posted - saying what I said - does not mean "you" and others here don't make good points many times. I simply asked a question as to if it would not get annoying (to a wrestler) if me being a non-wrestler, continued to try to pound my position of a certain wrestler being good, despite consistently losing matches and being dominated by his opponent.
Ners, my point was that IF you were such a great player, I would be no competition for you in one on one, as I was a wrestler. The joke I tell people is that I was such an accomplished grade school basketball player, the HS wrestling coach recruited me in 9th grade.
Good basketball players do not automatically make good coaches. Look at history. You make valid points on other topics, but you are known as the Derrick basher. You have lost credibility on all your posts because you are so far in the hole on your Derrick crusade.
Are you going to cough up your HS hoop cred?
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Ners, my point was that IF you were such a great player, I would be no competition for you in one on one, as I was a wrestler. The joke I tell people is that I was such an accomplished grade school basketball player, the HS wrestling coach recruited me in 9th grade.
Good basketball players do not automatically make good coaches. Look at history. You make valid points on other topics, but you are known as the Derrick basher. You have lost credibility on all your posts because you are so far in the hole on your Derrick crusade.
Are you going to cough up your HS hoop cred?
All good Rara. I'm sure you'd dominate me on the wrestling mat. My experience on wrestling mats ended in 5th grade. I won't get into my playing "accolades" as they'll get thrown back in my face. I only ever brought up any of that stuff as people here had asked where I was drawing my conclusions from/what I was basing my conclusions on/what would give me any credibility on the matter.
And I agree that good basketball coaches don't always make good coaches, yet generally in most cases basketball coaches end up squaring off against other basketball coaches. Some have to lose! 17 of 30 coaches in NBA are former players. Interestingly enough, the far superior Western Conference features 12 of its 15 coaches as former NBA players, whereas the Eastern Conference only has 5 of its 15 as former players. 3 of those 5 Eastern Conference coaches have their teams in the Top 8 in Eastern Conference.
And yes, I realize I've brought a lot of "dislike" here on myself for not backing off the negative position/opinion I have on Derrick. Obviously I don't hold a negative opinion of him as a person, just as a basketball player. He has some qualities that are good, such as rarely turning the ball over and being strong with the ball. Yet for as good as he is in that regard I wish he'd force the issue more and attack/drive/penetrate more frequently - as it could force help and create some better looks for both Matt and Duane. In most* cases when Derrick does penetrate, he ends up shooting the basketball.
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I didn't say people aren't qualified to comment. And as I posted - saying what I said - does not mean "you" and others here don't make good points many times. I simply asked a question as to if it would not get annoying (to a wrestler) if me being a non-wrestler, continued to try to pound my position of a certain wrestler being good, despite consistently losing matches and being dominated by his opponent.
I enjoy reading the takes many people have here. I love MU Hoops - no better place to discuss it than right here. That's why I post here, read here, etc. Thankfully next season a huge source of the angst here will be gone.
And PS Guns: I had lots of PR experience coordinating player and coaches interviews with the media at the college and NBA level. Color commentators talk with coaches frequently to get their views on a team. I watched frequently at shoot around and the press room before games color guys talk with head coaches. When I say MU PR machine - it was more a reference to the feedback given to a media guy like Dickie Simpkins by our biggest mouthpiece - Wojo. Of course it isn't a case of MU issuing a press release or putting comments such as the ones made by Dickie Simpkins in the game notes for a contest...
Lets post the question another way. If there was a wrestling board, where a former wrestler disagreed with everyone on the board, wrestlers and non-wrestlers alike. Where the non-wrestler's thoughts/viewpoints align with all the other former wrestlers.
Who is more likely to be correct, the non-wrestler (who all the former wrestlers agree with) or the one outlier amongst the former wrestlers?
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Lets post the question another way. If there was a wrestling board, where a former wrestler disagreed with everyone on the board, wrestlers and non-wrestlers alike. Where the non-wrestler's thoughts/viewpoints align with all the other former wrestlers.
Who is more likely to be correct, the non-wrestler (who all the former wrestlers agree with) or the one outlier amongst the former wrestlers?
Everyone? There are plenty of guys here who have played ball too that see things similarly to me. Some do a better job of subscribing to the if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all mantra. More shared the same view last season. Due to the improvement by Derrick this season, some don't see him as being still, or as, detrimental to the team's chances at success this season. That's a fair and fine conclusion to come to. I disagree. You and others are welcome to your opinion. I'm not going to change my mind, you and others aren't going to change yours. I feel our 27-28 record over last year and now this year bear out my conclusion. Sorry.
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Nice work on landing your wife. Where we differ is that I wouldn't consider getting into multiple debates with you telling you why a wrestler is still a good wrestler even though he continues to lose/struggle match after match. Why? Because I have virtually no experience being a wrestler or having a sound understanding of the fundamentals and concepts. Would it not drive you nuts if you and I watched the same wrestler struggle significantly over and over and be outperformed by his adversary 80% of the time, and yet I INSIST that he's a solid wrestler?
Saying all of this does not mean you and others here don't raise good points many times. And largely if it weren't for one particular player poster, there would be very little disagreement as to overall takes on MU basketball these last two seasons.
And yes, I do realize there are two sides of the ball - but we have been WOEFUL on the offensive end the last two seasons, and even worse this year. We need all the help on that side of the ball we can get.
FIFY
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Everyone? There are plenty of guys here who have played ball too that see things similarly to me. Some do a better job of subscribing to the if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all mantra. More shared the same view last season. Due to the improvement by Derrick this season, some don't see him as being still, or as, detrimental to the team's chances at success this season. That's a fair and fine conclusion to come to. I disagree. You and others are welcome to your opinion. I'm not going to change my mind, you and others aren't going to change yours. I feel our 27-28 record over last year and now this year bear out my conclusion. Sorry.
Terrible logic....
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Everyone? There are plenty of guys here who have played ball too that see things similarly to me. Some do a better job of subscribing to the if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all mantra. More shared the same view last season. Due to the improvement by Derrick this season, some don't see him as being still, or as, detrimental to the team's chances at success this season. That's a fair and fine conclusion to come to. I disagree. You and others are welcome to your opinion. I'm not going to change my mind, you and others aren't going to change yours. I feel our 27-28 record over last year and now this year bear out my conclusion. Sorry.
I have the same view as you Ners. Derrick was our downfall last year and while he's improved this year, he is still a liability.
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I have the same view as you Ners. Derrick was our downfall last year and while he's improved this year, he is still a liability.
I don't know the total number of 'active' posters here but N'ers, you, and TW don't make a quorum. Forgetful is right on this, significant observation and analysis can equal or replace (opportunity to be more objective) almost all the time.
Does experience help? absolutely. can it limit ones perspective? with out a doubt.
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I have the same view as you Ners. Derrick was our downfall last year and while he's improved this year, he is still a liability.
So you are going on record saying
1. Duane's injury had nothing to do with it
2. Jake Thomas had nothing to do with it
3. Chris OTule offense had nothing to do with it
4. Mayo's lack of desire to play in a system or be a teammate had nothing to do with it
5. Juan Anderson being a non-factor had nothing to do with it
6. JWilson disappearing and not being a vocal leader had nothing to do with it
7. Buzz Williams had nothing to do with it
8. Davante's lack of defense,conditioning, etc. had nothing to do with it
9. The freshman not being college ready had nothing to do with it
10. Vander Blue leaving early had nothing to do with it
11. Team chemistry had nothing to do with it.
Those of us who have played team sports realize you don't lose a season on one guy. Multiple things are working against you. The 11 things listed above impacted us last year so saying we replace Derrick then our problems vanish is wishful thinking and inconsistent with fact.
MU was not and is not a good team. One player does not break a team.
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So you are going on record saying
1. Duane's injury had nothing to do with it
2. Jake Thomas had nothing to do with it
3. Chris OTule offense had nothing to do with it
4. Mayo's lack of desire to play in a system or be a teammate had nothing to do with it
5. Juan Anderson being a non-factor had nothing to do with it
6. JWilson disappearing and not being a vocal leader had nothing to do with it
7. Buzz Williams had nothing to do with it
8. Davante's lack of defense,conditioning, etc. had nothing to do with it
9. The freshman not being college ready had nothing to do with it
10. Vander Blue leaving early had nothing to do with it
11. Team chemistry had nothing to do with it.
Those of us who have played team sports realize you don't lose a season on one guy. Multiple things are working against you. The 11 things listed above impacted us last year so saying we replace Derrick then our problems vanish is wishful thinking and inconsistent with fact.
MU was not and is not a good team. One player does not break a team.
Exactly plus 2 complete coaching staffs? The one this year is made up by high quality guards. So they do not know who should be playing the point guard position! See Wojo and the staff are running a 3 point guard offense. The best guards in offense do not handle the ball as much so they can be free to score. This is simple basketball. But we are not as good as the competition. Is Derrick an excellent point guard? No! But he is the best we have at handling the ball yes. If Du. Wilson would be playing the point, his off. production would go down tons.
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I have the same view as you Ners. Derrick was our downfall last year and while he's improved this year, he is still a liability.
How can you say that? He is a starting elite PG averaging about 33 minutes per game the past two years. Our Record during that time is 27-27, and 11-17 in conference. It is not at all his fault. The fault lies with in no particular order: Buzz, Wojo, Devante, Jamil, Mayo, Carlino, Juan, Jake Thomas, Du. Wilson, Otule, Burton, JJJ, and so on. He is not a liability, even though little girls have asked their father why nobody guards him, and defenses clog the lane while he dribbles around looking for passing lanes.
Derrick is not a liability. He is our best player and without him the past two years, we would be about 18-36. It is obvious that we do not need another PG given his solid elite performance. He is hardly the reason for our record--look for that responsibility elsewhere. Get over it!! Two coaching staffs have spoken. He gives us the best chance to win. Get it? Got it? Good!!
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How can you say that? He is a starting elite PG averaging about 33 minutes per game the past two years. Our Record during that time is 27-27, and 11-17 in conference. It is not at all his fault. The fault lies with in no particular order: Buzz, Wojo, Devante, Jamil, Mayo, Carlino, Juan, Jake Thomas, Du. Wilson, Otule, Burton, JJJ, and so on. He is not a liability, even though little girls have asked their father why nobody guards him, and defenses clog the lane while he dribbles around looking for passing lanes.
Derrick is not a liability. He is our best player and without him the past two years, we would be about 18-36. It is obvious that we do not need another PG given his solid elite performance. He is hardly the reason for our record--look for that responsibility elsewhere. Get over it!! Two coaching staffs have spoken. He gives us the best chance to win. Get it? Got it? Good!!
Derrick is absolutely a liability. As are over half of their players. Our only difference is that we recognize that he isn't the only liability. Or even the main one.
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Big opportunity for JJJ today. Hopefully he plays under control and makes the most of it!
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Derrick is absolutely a liability. As are over half of their players. Our only difference is that we recognize that he isn't the only liability. Or even the main one.
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Just what I said. The liabilities are all the other guys--not Derrick. Even his FT shooting are likely the fault of the coaching. Everybody knows this.
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Just what I said. The liabilities are all the other guys--not Derrick. Even his FT shooting are likely the fault of the coaching. Everybody knows this.
Did you read? I said he was a liability. No one here doesn't think that.
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Big opportunity for JJJ today. Hopefully he plays under control and makes the most of it!
Performed right about on par with this averages in other 6 games over 25+ minutes, although today was high water mark for minutes with 35.
6 prior games: 29.3 minutes per game. 13.6ppg. 4.3 rebounds per game. 2.5 assists per game. 3.0 steals per game 2.6 turnovers per game.
Today: 14points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 3 turnovers.
Should also be noted JJJ only had 1 foul - he fouls at an incredibly low rate - particularly for being a fairly aggressive defender
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Great game by JjJ today, he looked really solid, especially in the first half, driving and distributing as well. Still needs to work on his man D a bit and in the second half he started getting into trouble a little again driving into nearly impossible situations and having to force either a bad pass or shot.
That said, he played a fantastic game today and hope to see more of this going forward. Maybe he should lose the headband permanently?
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Did you read? I said he was a liability. No one here doesn't think that.
Really. Some here think he is our best player--including you!
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So I guess Wojo didn't ruin JJJ for life after all.
Ever since the benching, Wojo has increased JJJ's minutes in 5 of 6 games. In addition to playing better, I can only assume JJJ was fully engaged at practice, too. And today, when Marquette really needed him, on the road against a good opponent, JJJ performed admirably.
I commend Jajuan for being mature enough to accept the benching for what it was -- a signal that he needed to get his head out of his arse (not to mention out of his headband - ha!) -- and for earning his way back into the rotation. He wasn't given anything, he earned it, and it showed today.
I also commend our coach for demanding discipline, full engagement and the right attitude from all of his players.
Wojo is trying to build a program here. He has to demand full commitment from every player. He can't make exceptions for guys who were highly ranked high school players two or three years ago.
Wojo motivated JJJ with the best incentive a coach has at his disposal -- playing time -- and the player responded. Both deserve a big "way to go!"
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So I guess Wojo didn't ruin JJJ for life after all.
Ever since the benching, Wojo has increased JJJ's minutes in 5 of 6 games. In addition to playing better, I can only assume JJJ was fully engaged at practice, too. And today, when Marquette really needed him, on the road against a good opponent, JJJ performed admirably.
I commend Jajuan for being mature enough to accept the benching for what it was -- a signal that he needed to get his head out of his arse (not to mention out of his headband - ha!) -- and for earning his way back into the rotation. He wasn't given anything, he earned it, and it showed today.
I also commend our coach for demanding discipline, full engagement and the right attitude from all of his players.
Wojo is trying to build a program here. He has to demand full commitment from every player. He can't make exceptions for guys who were highly ranked high school players two or three years ago.
Wojo motivated JJJ with the best incentive a coach has at his disposal -- playing time -- and the player responded. Both deserve a big "way to go!"
I don't see how this could be controversial, so no doubt it will be.
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So I guess Wojo didn't ruin JJJ for life after all.
Ever since the benching, Wojo has increased JJJ's minutes in 5 of 6 games. In addition to playing better, I can only assume JJJ was fully engaged at practice, too. And today, when Marquette really needed him, on the road against a good opponent, JJJ performed admirably.
I commend Jajuan for being mature enough to accept the benching for what it was -- a signal that he needed to get his head out of his arse (not to mention out of his headband - ha!) -- and for earning his way back into the rotation. He wasn't given anything, he earned it, and it showed today.
I also commend our coach for demanding discipline, full engagement and the right attitude from all of his players.
Wojo is trying to build a program here. He has to demand full commitment from every player. He can't make exceptions for guys who were highly ranked high school players two or three years ago.
Wojo motivated JJJ with the best incentive a coach has at his disposal -- playing time -- and the player responded. Both deserve a big "way to go!"
Glad to see your riding the JJJ train now. We need this young man if we are going to salvage our season.
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So I guess Wojo didn't ruin JJJ for life after all.
Ever since the benching, Wojo has increased JJJ's minutes in 5 of 6 games. In addition to playing better, I can only assume JJJ was fully engaged at practice, too. And today, when Marquette really needed him, on the road against a good opponent, JJJ performed admirably.
I commend Jajuan for being mature enough to accept the benching for what it was -- a signal that he needed to get his head out of his arse (not to mention out of his headband - ha!) -- and for earning his way back into the rotation. He wasn't given anything, he earned it, and it showed today.
I also commend our coach for demanding discipline, full engagement and the right attitude from all of his players.
Wojo is trying to build a program here. He has to demand full commitment from every player. He can't make exceptions for guys who were highly ranked high school players two or three years ago.
Wojo motivated JJJ with the best incentive a coach has at his disposal -- playing time -- and the player responded. Both deserve a big "way to go!"
LOL - Nice work 82.
Yep, not until the benching took place did JJJ have in him a performance like today. Uh. Oh wait. Except he did. Multiple times before.
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LOL - Nice work 82.
Yep, not until the benching took place did JJJ have in him a performance like today. Uh. Oh wait. Except he did. Multiple times before.
actally, WoJo said post game that JjJ has had great practices. As MU82 said, his minutes have been increasing since the DNPS. I said it after that game that instead of looking to transfer, as you thought he would or should do, JjJ would rise to the occasion and show WoJo what he can do. I didn't picture JJJ as a quitter, but rather someone who would take the motivation and show what he could do by working hard. Obviously he's done that, as evidenced by both his playing time increase and Wojo's comments.
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actally, WoJo said post game that JjJ has had great practices. As MU82 said, his minutes have been increasing since the DNPS. I said it after that game that instead of looking to transfer, as you thought he would or should do, JjJ would rise to the occasion and show WoJo what he can do. I didn't picture JJJ as a quitter, but rather someone who would take the motivation and show what he could do by working hard. Obviously he's done that, as evidenced by both his playing time increase and Wojo's comments.
Minutes are on the increase from getting a DNP? I'd hope. Wojo's hand forced a little today with Carlino out and only 7 deep and Sandy having major struggles of late? And really?? What do you expect to say? Wojo blamed poor practice as the reason for his benching, yet, today he plays big minutes, performs well as usual when given big minutes and now Wojo has to cover his ass to an extent as people might wonder: Gee, Why has this kid been getting nailed to the bench for the better part of the last 7 games and that has coincided with 7 straight losses?
You think JJJ all of a sudden just started "practicing better?" He's a slasher, driver, scorer and transition player - those types of attributes rarely go bad - albeit in practice you don't spend much time going up and down the floor at all.
Sadly, JJJ was performing just as well prior to the benching as he has after the benching. My point was that Wojo is/was playing Russian roulette because JJJ is very talented. Buzz would have lost him after last season had Buzz not moved on. And Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson due to benching them behind less talented vets.
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Minutes are on the increase from getting a DNP? I'd hope. Wojo's hand forced a little today with Carlino out and only 7 deep and Sandy having major struggles of late? And really?? What do you expect to say? Wojo blamed poor practice as the reason for his benching, yet, today he plays big minutes, performs well as usual when given big minutes and now Wojo has to cover his ass to an extent as people might wonder: Gee, Why has this kid been getting nailed to the bench for the better part of the last 7 games and that has coincided with 7 straight losses?
You think JJJ all of a sudden just started "practicing better?" He's a slasher, driver, scorer and transition player - those types of attributes rarely go bad - albeit in practice you don't spend much time going up and down the floor at all.
Sadly, JJJ was performing just as well prior to the benching as he has after the benching. My point was that Wojo is/was playing Russian roulette because JJJ is very talented. Buzz would have lost him after last season had Buzz not moved on. And Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson due to benching them behind less talented vets.
You are the proverbial broken record.
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You are the proverbial broken record.
You make a lot of good points usually 82..even when you choose to take shots at me. However, to think the DNP Wojo gave JJJ awhile back all of a sudden sparked this surge in performance, is just not truth. JJJ played just fine before he got the benching, when given 25+ minutes per game. Today was his first game since Providence he got over 25, and voila, what do you know? Just like he did prior to the benching, he produced 14/4/2/2/2 - his virtually exact averages in the 6 games prior he got 25+, all prior to the benching.
And "earning" his way back into the rotation? A better question might be what did he do to earn his way out of it when he got 12 minutes at Creighton coming off some good games prior to that.
Oddly our best 3 wins of the year: ASU, Providence, and Seton Hall JJJ played more than 25+.
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You consider today one of our three best wins of the year?!? What is your criteria?
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You consider today one of our three best wins of the year?!? What is your criteria?
Yeah um, can you name a better win?
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You consider today one of our three best wins of the year?!? What is your criteria?
What win is better? Providence? That was a home game though. ASU? They are barely .500. Only one better might be Tennesee
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Yeah I think the best 3 are Tennessee, Providence and SHU. No order.
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I didn't see the game. I'm not looking to criticize the comment. My question was based in large part on the characterizations I've read on this board that Seton Hall's poor play had something to do with the win. So I'll ask again, only because I'm curious. What criteria do you base your opinion on? Quality of opponent? Offensive output? Defense?
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Glad to see your riding the JJJ train now. We need this young man if we are going to salvage our season.
Really? Salvage the season? How are things in wonderland today?
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Minutes are on the increase from getting a DNP? I'd hope. Wojo's hand forced a little today with Carlino out and only 7 deep and Sandy having major struggles of late? And really?? What do you expect to say? Wojo blamed poor practice as the reason for his benching, yet, today he plays big minutes, performs well as usual when given big minutes and now Wojo has to cover his ass to an extent as people might wonder: Gee, Why has this kid been getting nailed to the bench for the better part of the last 7 games and that has coincided with 7 straight losses?
You think JJJ all of a sudden just started "practicing better?" He's a slasher, driver, scorer and transition player - those types of attributes rarely go bad - albeit in practice you don't spend much time going up and down the floor at all.
Sadly, JJJ was performing just as well prior to the benching as he has after the benching. My point was that Wojo is/was playing Russian roulette because JJJ is very talented. Buzz would have lost him after last season had Buzz not moved on. And Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson due to benching them behind less talented vets.
Just stop. Please stop. I don't know how many more times I/we can tell you that this just isn't true. Russian Roulette? Stop with the unnatural carnal knowledgeing narratives.
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I was very excited by JjJ's performance yesterday. He has gotten steadily better each of the games since he was benched against Xavier. He was in a downward trend going into that game and Wojo wouldn't have any of it. He saw an issue with his player and took steps to correct it. JjJ has responded to it exactly as I hoped a player would.
JjJ's steady improvement (not just this one game) since the benching should be proof to debunk all the crap on here that was said about JjJ and Wojo. People accused Wojo of playing mind games and being dishonest with JjJ. Those same people also implied that JjJ was a self enititled whiner who would pout and quit if Wojo didn't give him the playing time he felt he deserved. JjJ did the opposite, he listened to his coaches, worked harder, and improved in each game since. This is exactly the type of result you hope for when you bench a kid. The benching, in theory, lost us the Xavier game, but it may have also won us the Seton Hall game, and hopefully given us a much improved JjJ for the rest of his career.
This should also debunk the myth that Wojo doesn't know how to connect with and motivate his players, because it seems his tactics have worked.
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I was very excited by JjJ's performance yesterday. He has gotten steadily better each of the games since he was benched against Xavier. He was in a downward trend going into that game and Wojo wouldn't have any of it. He saw an issue with his player and took steps to correct it. JjJ has responded to it exactly as I hoped a player would.
JjJ's steady improvement (not just this one game) since the benching should be proof to debunk all the crap on here that was said about JjJ and Wojo. People accused Wojo of playing mind games and being dishonest with JjJ. Those same people also implied that JjJ was a self enititled whiner he would pout and quit if Wojo didn't give him the playing time he felt he deserved. JjJ did the opposite, he listened to his coaches, worked harder, and improved in each game since. This is exactly the type of result you hope for when you bench a kid. The benching, in theory, lost us the Xavier game, but it may have also won us the Seton Hall game, and hopefully given us a much improved JjJ for the rest of his career.
This should also debunk the myth that Wojo doesn't know how to connect with and motivate his players, because it seems his tactics have worked.
Yep. No doubt. His energy has been much better directed.
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This should also debunk the myth that Wojo doesn't know how to connect with and motivate his players, because it seems his tactics have worked.
I don't know if this proves anything other than SHU played terrible basketball. Looking for signs to disprove stories from those with over active imaginations is interesting however.
As for JJJ he played well yesterday. Hoping he goes on a little run to increase the optimism for next year.
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Just stop. Please stop. I don't know how many more times I/we can tell you that this just isn't true. Russian Roulette? Stop with the unnatural carnal knowledgeing narratives.
Really is it that hard to believe that he might be practicing better? That he might be more focused and better understanding of what is expected of him?
Why do a handful of people here try to make simple concepts hard? How about this....the benching had the effect that Wojo wanted. IOW, IT WORKED!!!!
Stop with the dumbass, self-reinforcing narratives. The fact is that Wojo is by and large coaching well. Players are showing improvement. Players are focused and playing hard. Tactically there are some issues, but that will sort itself out.
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Really is it that hard to believe that he might be practicing better? That he might be more focused and better understanding of what is expected of him?
Why do a handful of people here try to make simple concepts hard? How about this....the benching had the effect that Wojo wanted. IOW, IT WORKED!!!!
Stop with the dumbass, self-reinforcing narratives. The fact is that Wojo is by and large coaching well. Players are showing improvement. Players are focused and playing hard. Tactically there are some issues, but that will sort itself out.
"dumbass, self reinforcing narratives".....Hmmmm.....could this be an expert witness?
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"dumbass, self reinforcing narratives".....Hmmmm.....could this be an expert witness?
OK...that was funny.
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I'm not sure anyone else has mentioned it, but Wojo had a big hug for JJJ after the game. Also mentioned in the post game radio show that he had had his best week of practice last week.
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Really is it that hard to believe that he might be practicing better? That he might be more focused and better understanding of what is expected of him?
Why do a handful of people here try to make simple concepts hard? How about this....the benching had the effect that Wojo wanted. IOW, IT WORKED!!!!
Stop with the dumbass, self-reinforcing narratives. The fact is that Wojo is by and large coaching well. Players are showing improvement. Players are focused and playing hard. Tactically there are some issues, but that will sort itself out.
It is amazing to me that for as much as they post, both Ners and Texas Western have no concept of how important the psychology of coaching is. Wojo is showing me that he is very good at this aspect of coaching. They look at the small sample and worry about how making JJJ earn playing time is going to hurt him, make him transfer, make the rest of the team mad at Wojo, disrupt team chemistry, etc., etc. Too funny. The best coaches are masters at the psychology of coaching and don't worry about hurting someones feelings or what a random moron on a message board thinks, because they see the big picture. Obviously Wojo sees the talent in JJJ and is working towards making him the star that he thinks he can be. Poor coaches would do what Ners and TW want, just play him because he has talent and let him play four years of undisciplined basketball and show flashes of his excellent talent. Only complete players are going to get playing time from Wojo as he builds his own team with his own players. JJJ is a more difficult situation because Wojo most likely would not have recruited him, but he is here and there is potential and so he he making the tough decisions that a coach has to make (yes coaching is much tougher than posting on a message board believe it or not Ners and TW). With Burton we lost a good player because he wasn't buying into the complete player philosophy (and was dealing with the death of his mother). With JJJ and Cohen it appears that the desire to teach how to play and practice the right way seems to be working. Looking forward to seeing JJJ develop into the player he is capable of being over the next two plus years.
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I'm not sure anyone else has mentioned it, but Wojo had a big hug for JJJ after the game. Also mentioned in the post game radio show that he had had his best week of practice last week.
I did make the point and Ners shot down the notion that JjJ is practicing better lately, even tho WoJo said he is. So rather than believe the coach, the gospel according to Ners is told again. And again. And again
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I did make the point and Ners shot down the notion that JjJ is practicing better lately, even tho WoJo said he is. So rather than believe the coach, the gospel according to Ners is told again. And again. And again
You need to put 'I-dunked-in-high-school-Rob-Lowe' on ignore and quit beating your head against a wall.
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Glad to see your riding the JJJ train now. We need this young man if we are going to salvage our season.
I was never off "the JJJ train." In fact, I started a topic after one of his good earlier games mocking the clowns who said he was a waste, had no talent and should leave. I happen to think he does have talent, I hope he continues to improve and I hope he has a break-out season in 2015-16.
Unlike you (and some others here), however, I have no "agenda." I'm not related to these kids, I'm not friends of their families, I'm not an "insider" who claims to have knowledge of the inner workings of our team. Like many other level-headed Scoopers, I am a realist and a long-time basketball observer who is capable of looking beyond black-and-white to see nuance.
I do not think Wojo is a perfect coach, nor do I see him as someone who is killing our program -- there is ground in between those extreme vantage points. He is a first-year coach who already has improved and probably will continue to do so. I happen to trust him on everything JJJ-related so far because I have no reason to distrust him. I find his "side" of the situation more credible than the side that wants me to believe he has it in for JJJ, is out to ruin JJJ, wants to make JJJ transfer, etc.
If Wojo "cost us the Xavier game" by benching JJJ, I can live with that very nicely because, in the big picture, that game is meaningless.
Salvage our season? In terms of wins and losses and NCAA tourney bids, there is nothing to salvage -- and there never was. We simply aren't good enough. The only way this season will matter is if the new coach establishes the discipline, commitment and team-first attitude necessary for future seasons to be successful. Given everything I know about the situation, Wojo has done just that with JJJ and others. I am very bullish on the future of Marquette hoops.
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Still would like any of the usual head coach slurpers - TAMU, Sultan, OnePost, 82, LIghthouse84 - to actually disprove my points made:
JJJ's production yesterday was essentially the exact same as it was in the other 6 games that he played 25+ minutes - all of which were before the benching. So how can you say the benching was the reason JJJ played well against Seton Hall?? He played well, because he got lots of minutes, just as is the case the other 6 times Wojo let him run.
Were we down a man yesterday? Was Wojo's hand forced a little to play JJJ more minutes? Do you really think Wojo is going to come out and say anything other than JJJ practiced well this past week to try to justify his playing time and also support why he was benched - as certainly his performance yesterday left even his haters here scratching their heads? (Keep in mind while Wojo ratcheted JJJ's minutes way down the team lost 6 games in a row.)
Did none of you guys believe JJJ was ready to transfer at the end of last season? If you don't think getting nailed to the bench when you see guys make similar screw ups as you, and guys that are far less productive on the basketball court get major minutes, doesn't affect your attitude and view of your head coach - well - I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you.
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Bring up wacky points.
Others address wacky points.
Bring up wacky points again. Assert they were never addressed.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
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Still would like any of the usual head coach slurpers - TAMU, Sultan, OnePost, 82, LIghthouse84 - to actually disprove my points made:
JJJ's production yesterday was essentially the exact same as it was in the other 6 games that he played 25+ minutes - all of which were before the benching. So how can you say the benching was the reason JJJ played well against Seton Hall?? He played well, because he got lots of minutes, just as is the case the other 6 times Wojo let him run.
Were we down a man yesterday? Was Wojo's hand forced a little to play JJJ more minutes? Do you really think Wojo is going to come out and say anything other than JJJ practiced well this past week to try to justify his playing time and also support why he was benched - as certainly his performance yesterday left even his haters here scratching their heads? (Keep in mind while Wojo ratcheted JJJ's minutes way down the team lost 6 games in a row.)
Did none of you guys believe JJJ was ready to transfer at the end of last season? If you don't think getting nailed to the bench when you see guys make similar screw ups as you, and guys that are far less productive on the basketball court get major minutes, doesn't affect your attitude and view of your head coach - well - I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you.
Why bother addressing anything you say? You obviously know best. You refuse to acknowledge any of the other multitude of explanations that don't fit your narrative.
I spend a lot of time with special needs kids that often ask the same questions, multiple times, every time I see them. It can get tiring but at least their hearts are pure. I used to value your input, thinking that you were just passionately devoted to this team. Now, after your incessant, narcissistic criticism of two very different coaches that don't follow your world view, I believe something else is going on. Go ahead and get the last word, as I am sure you must.
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Still would like any of the usual head coach slurpers - TAMU, Sultan, OnePost, 82, LIghthouse84 - to actually disprove my points made:
JJJ's production yesterday was essentially the exact same as it was in the other 6 games that he played 25+ minutes - all of which were before the benching. So how can you say the benching was the reason JJJ played well against Seton Hall?? He played well, because he got lots of minutes, just as is the case the other 6 times Wojo let him run.
Were we down a man yesterday? Was Wojo's hand forced a little to play JJJ more minutes? Do you really think Wojo is going to come out and say anything other than JJJ practiced well this past week to try to justify his playing time and also support why he was benched - as certainly his performance yesterday left even his haters here scratching their heads? (Keep in mind while Wojo ratcheted JJJ's minutes way down the team lost 6 games in a row.)
Did none of you guys believe JJJ was ready to transfer at the end of last season? If you don't think getting nailed to the bench when you see guys make similar screw ups as you, and guys that are far less productive on the basketball court get major minutes, doesn't affect your attitude and view of your head coach - well - I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you.
I love how you constantly ignore the possibility in those other games you cherry pick that he got those minutes because he was playing well as opposed to playing well because he got a certain number of minutes. That's argument has been had so not sure why I'm rehashing it.
JJJ did play well yesterday - he attacked the rim and created for himself and others. He was better defensively yesterday as well but let's not ignore how often he has gambled this year, which has led to a lot of easy buckets for the opposition. Let's not use steals as a measure of how good a player is defensively either. He needs to play to his strengths - attack the rim, floaters, even a couple of midrange jump shots. He shouldn't let fly from beyond the arc unless absolutely necessary - he is awful from deep and his shot selection has been horrendous at times.
I think he should earn some more minutes after yesterday's performance and if he is practicing better. But to say he should be playing 25 mpg per game because he has earned that time is 100% false. You need to stop connecting everything you are unhappy about (JJJ minutes, Deonte transferring) to Derrick. And let me be clear - Derrick is what he is and I would have no issue if JJJ and Sandy got more minutes at his expense. For those familiar with Seinfeld you sound like Costanza blaming everything that was going wrong for him on Lloyd Braun. The difference is Costanza was right.
Let's see how JJJ performs on Tuesday. Hopefully he can build on this performance but it really is up to him. If he starts jacking up ill-advised 3s, turning the ball over and playing poorly defensively he won't get those minutes and he shouldn't. If he doesn't and continues on this path I would love to see him get more minutes. If he earns them he will get them - it really is that simple.
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Bring up wacky points.
Others address wacky points.
Bring up wacky points again. Assert they were never addressed.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
LOL - What is truly wacky is to suggest that JJJ's benching led to him playing better yesterday or better the 5 games after the benching. That's some real rainbow and unicorn stuff right there.
I'm simply asking you and the other Wojo slurpers how you can say the above as fact?? It's an opinion at best and one the facts don't support. JJJ hasn't been better in the games since the benching. The only correlation to better performance by JJJ is, and always has been more minutes. As I said, 6 games of plus 25 minutes before the benching, in which he averaged 29.6 minutes he produced 13/4/2/3/2. Yesterday he gets 35 minutes and gives 13/4/2/2/3.
I get that you and the others on the Wojo slurp train and Ners hate train want to try to suggest that JJJ's performance yesterday was the sheer result of the great "coaching" and motivational tactic Wojo deployed 6 games ago against Xavier - but it wasn't.
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I will say this in regards to JJJ and Duane. If you guys recall in the second half after a steal led to a Johnson bucket Duane and JJJ kind of congratulated each other in the front court when Seton Hall attempted to push the ball up court following the made basket. You could see each one of them kick it into another gear as to not get beat in transition.
Those two kids can really run. I hope they both can learn to harness their natural ability.
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I love how you constantly ignore the possibility in those other games you cherry pick that he got those minutes because he was playing well as opposed to playing well because he got a certain number of minutes. That's argument has been had so not sure why I'm rehashing it.
JJJ did play well yesterday - he attacked the rim and created for himself and others. He was better defensively yesterday as well but let's not ignore how often he has gambled this year, which has led to a lot of easy buckets for the opposition. Let's not use steals as a measure of how good a player is defensively either. He needs to play to his strengths - attack the rim, floaters, even a couple of midrange jump shots. He shouldn't let fly from beyond the arc unless absolutely necessary - he is awful from deep and his shot selection has been horrendous at times.
I think he should earn some more minutes after yesterday's performance and if he is practicing better. But to say he should be playing 25 mpg per game because he has earned that time is 100% false. You need to stop connecting everything you are unhappy about (JJJ minutes, Deonte transferring) to Derrick. And let me be clear - Derrick is what he is and I would have no issue if JJJ and Sandy got more minutes at his expense. For those familiar with Seinfeld you sound like Costanza blaming everything that was going wrong for him on Lloyd Braun. The difference is Costanza was right.
Let's see how JJJ performs on Tuesday. Hopefully he can build on this performance but it really is up to him. If he starts jacking up ill-advised 3s, turning the ball over and playing poorly defensively he won't get those minutes and he shouldn't. If he doesn't and continues on this path I would love to see him get more minutes. If he earns them he will get them - it really is that simple.
That's nice Blue Man. If you are such a proponent of players earning minutes, can you please share with me what Derrick Wilson did yesterday to earn 40 minutes, or last season to earn more minutes than any other player on the roster?
And for the 100th time, just because you come into a game and miss your first two shots or have a turnover or two, it doesn't mean you are going to SUCK for the whole game. If JJJ starts a game with some of those events, historically Wojo yanks him and rarely gives him more time. You can't put up stats sitting on the bench. Furthermore, if you go into a game thinking if I screw up/miss my first couple of shots, I know it is bench city - you play tight. YOu have to let your talented guys play through their mistakes. JJJ is probably the most talented player on this entire roster at this point, and using him 15 minutes per game is ridiculous, and of course it helped contribute to us losing 6 games in a row, while Wojo tried to use motivational tactics on JJJ (that were unnecessary.)
It's amazing how many people here seem to desire having a player that does virtually NOTHING other than not making mistakes, because they play so incredibly conservatively and passively, that they never put themselves in a position to screw up. But that player "plays within himself," "knows his role," etc.
I agree JJJ has struggled from the 3 point line, obviously, yet he needs to keep shooting them as most of them are open shots/good looks. I was impressed that during the game yesterday Wojo told JJ - "JJ if it's an open shot, shoot it." JJ passed up on a good look from the 3 after missing his first two attempts yesterday, in a possession toward the end of the shot clock. He passed to a teammate who then got a worse look and missed.
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JJJ is a talented player. If he can even shoot 35% from 3 he'll be a dangerous player with his length and quickness. Juan Anderson and Vander are the only top 100 recruits (that i can think of) that stayed for 4 years after failing to "fulfill" their expectations. vander is probably going to be in the NBA and Juan has become serviceable.
Let these guys become upperclassmen and see what they can do. Then get another crop of top 100 guys in and let them develop and so on and so forth. All MU fans have experienced are top 100 guys playing limited minutes for a year or two then transferring. I'm looking forward to Wojo changing the morale within the program and JJJ becoming a good player.
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Before you anoit JJJ as a potential star, he has a lot areas to improve on, one is his shooting. In the first half, he had a wide open shot on the baseline and he missed it wide right barely touching the rim. He will given total opportunity to start at the three next year. Gains 10 pounds of muscle, learns to go to his left a tad, and able to knock down a three consistently will
make playing time more readily available. Another point, like to see against X the same type of game from Steve Taylor and JJJ. Even Duane. Consistency has been lacking from all 3. Taylor
being a senior next year could be an X factor. At times could play Ellenson, Fisher and Taylor together which would give MU a big frontline, add Cheatham and JJJ at the guards and MU is as
big as an NBA team, interesting.
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That's nice Blue Man. If you are such a proponent of players earning minutes, can you please share with me what Derrick Wilson did yesterday to earn 40 minutes, or last season to earn more minutes than any other player on the roster?
And for the 100th time, just because you come into a game and miss your first two shots or have a turnover or two, it doesn't mean you are going to SUCK for the whole game. If JJJ starts a game with some of those events, historically Wojo yanks him and rarely gives him more time. You can't put up stats sitting on the bench. Furthermore, if you go into a game thinking if I screw up/miss my first couple of shots, I know it is bench city - you play tight. YOu have to let your talented guys play through their mistakes. JJJ is probably the most talented player on this entire roster at this point, and using him 15 minutes per game is ridiculous, and of course it helped contribute to us losing 6 games in a row, while Wojo tried to use motivational tactics on JJJ (that were unnecessary.)
It's amazing how many people here seem to desire having a player that does virtually NOTHING other than not making mistakes, because they play so incredibly conservatively and passively, that they never put themselves in a position to screw up. But that player "plays within himself," "knows his role," etc.
I agree JJJ has struggled from the 3 point line, obviously, yet he needs to keep shooting them as most of them are open shots/good looks. I was impressed that during the game yesterday Wojo told JJ - "JJ if it's an open shot, shoot it." JJ passed up on a good look from the 3 after missing his first two attempts yesterday, in a possession toward the end of the shot clock. He passed to a teammate who then got a worse look and missed.
My post was about primarily about JJJ yet you made it mostly about Derrick. Not to mention it was positive in regards to JJJ. Honestly, you should talk to someone about this obsession - it can't be healthy.
Should a player be pulled based on a couple of missed shots or a couple of turnovers? Well, that depends. What was the shot selection? Were they careless turnovers from playing out of control? Are the turnovers or poor shot selection or poor defensive positioning a pattern with a particular player? If yes, then yank him. Why should any player be rewarded for poor play?
Again, I liked what I saw from JJJ yesterday. He played under control for the most part, he fed Luke, he attacked the rim, he was better defensively, had a couple of nice dishes off of drives. I would love to see him keep it up. Whether he is the most talented player on the roster is arguable. He may be the most gifted athletically but those are two distinct things. So far he hasn't used his physical skills to his advantage.
As for your favorite player, I have no issue with him playing less. I imagine Wojo plays him because he values his defense, leadership and ball security. If JJJ is letting the fact the Derrick plays big minutes negatively impact him then he is mentally weak. That being said, I don't think it does. JJJ getting more minutes is up to JJJ and his play. It really is that simple. The two issues can be separated.
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My post was about primarily about JJJ yet you made it mostly about Derrick. Not to mention it was positive in regards to JJJ. Honestly, you should talk to someone about this obsession - it can't be healthy.
Should a player be pulled based on a couple of missed shots or a couple of turnovers? Well, that depends. What was the shot selection? Were they careless turnovers from playing out of control? Are the turnovers or poor shot selection or poor defensive positioning a pattern with a particular player? If yes, then yank him. Why should any player be rewarded for poor play?
Again, I liked what I saw from JJJ yesterday. He played under control for the most part, he fed Luke, he attacked the rim, he was better defensively, had a couple of nice dishes off of drives. I would love to see him keep it up. Whether he is the most talented player on the roster is arguable. He may be the most gifted athletically but those are two distinct things. So far he hasn't used his physical skills to his advantage.
As for your favorite player, I have no issue with him playing less. I imagine Wojo plays him because he values his defense, leadership and ball security. If JJJ is letting the fact the Derrick plays big minutes negatively impact him then he is mentally weak. That being said, I don't think it does. JJJ getting more minutes is up to JJJ and his play. It really is that simple. The two issues can be separated.
No worries Blue Man - I'm all good, no need to talk with anybody about the obsession. I just find it contradictory when people who want to suggest JJJ doesn't earn his time, or needs to earn, also champion and support another player earning time. Yet when asked what they are doing on the floor, in games, to earn that time - it's usually crickets. Or nothing more, than "playing within himself," or other generally hollow things such as "leadership," "ball security." It's easy to be secure with the ball when you almost NEVER force any action.
I guess I just fundamentally disagree with the faction who champions a player like Derrick while discrediting a player like JJJ. I want a team full of aggressive guys. Guys who don't play scared. Guys who force action. I'll take an aggressive guy who plays to win all day long over a passive and timid player who plays not to screw up all day, every day.
I do agree with you when you ask the question: Why should any player be rewarded for poor play? I don't feel JJJ is mentally weak. Did Derrick earn his 40 yesterday? Seriously, let's hear it. Did he? I see a guy, like Burton, who instead probably wonders WTF do I need to do to get more minutes, when the guy in front of me seemingly doesn't do jack on the floor but keeps getting max minutes.
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Before you anoit JJJ as a potential star, he has a lot areas to improve on, one is his shooting. In the first half, he had a wide open shot on the baseline and he missed it wide right barely touching the rim. He will given total opportunity to start at the three next year. Gains 10 pounds of muscle, learns to go to his left a tad, and able to knock down a three consistently will
make playing time more readily available. Another point, like to see against X the same type of game from Steve Taylor and JJJ. Even Duane. Consistency has been lacking from all 3. Taylor
being a senior next year could be an X factor. At times could play Ellenson, Fisher and Taylor together which would give MU a big frontline, add Cheatham and JJJ at the guards and MU is as
big as an NBA team, interesting.
I agree JJJ has plenty he can improve on. ON the baseline 3 he took, that was a bad decision, as he could have driven the ball all the way to the rim for either a dunk, or likely a foul and trip to the FT line. Although the 3 was wide open, he shouldn't have taken that one. He does need to go to his left better as well. He needs to add strength. However, he's got the foundation/potential to become a VERY good player at this level - and at present on this team - I don't see a guy on the roster with more potential (perhaps Duane), but let's cultivate that talent and max his minutes here on out.
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Still would like any of the usual head coach slurpers - TAMU, Sultan, OnePost, 82, LIghthouse84 - to actually disprove my points made:
There is nothing to prove or disprove. Everything involved here is opinion-based on both sides.
I believe JJJ played more in certain games earlier in the season because he played well in those games earlier in the season. You believe the inverse is true; he played well because he got the minutes. Perhaps, if one allows for nuance instead of always insisting upon "either-or," the truth lies somewhere in between.
I believe JJJ was benched because he practiced poorly and his coach wanted to show him -- and everybody else -- that this was unacceptable. I cannot think of any other possible incentive Wojo would have had to bench one of his eight scholarship athletes. If that makes me a slurper, I've been called worse. If you have some proof of some more sinister reason for the benching, I'm all ears. But it has to be PROOF, not innuendo, third-hand BS or a feeling based upon your past prep superduperstardom. Otherwise, it's just another mope's uneducated opinion.
And I believe that, since the benching, Wojo has gradually increased JJJ's time because JJJ earned it through better practice habits and improved game play. I believe the benching motivated JJJ, but I have no proof nor do I pretend I do.
Of course JJJ got a career high 35 minutes yesterday only because Carlino was concussed -- that is something we both can agree upon. However, I believe that had JJJ performed poorly and Cohen (who played only 11 minutes) performed well in his stead, it would have been Cohen getting more minutes and JJJ getting fewer. And I would have been OK with that.
I'm not going back into this thread to look it up, but I'm wondering if in mentioning JJJ's 25+ minute games this season you also included his 5 PT, 3 TO showing in 31 minutes in the loss to Ohio State and his 7 PT, 3 TO showing in 28 minutes in our near-loss to NJIT. One could argue quite convincingly that Wojo stuck with him too long in both games.
Lastly, I'm not mentioning a certain PG's name because this isn't about him in the slightest and my opinion about him already has been stated numerous times. Just a reminder -- my opinion actually is very similar to your position on him. I'm simply not an over-the-top, annoying, obsessive, repetitive, know-it-all, condescending dick about it.
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He took the corner shot and was wild, his 3 point shooting all year is horrible. Your 3 needs to score much like the point in college. Somebody will have to step up, Cohen is a better shooter but with that slow release will have to be wide open. JJJ will have his chance. The next 10'games or so will show us if Wojo decides to play his seniors less, but played Derrick 40 minutes yesterday so who knows.
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No worries Blue Man - I'm all good, no need to talk with anybody about the obsession. I just find it contradictory when people who want to suggest JJJ doesn't earn his time, or needs to earn, also champion and support another player earning time. Yet when asked what they are doing on the floor, in games, to earn that time - it's usually crickets. Or nothing more, than "playing within himself," or other generally hollow things such as "leadership," "ball security." It's easy to be secure with the ball when you almost NEVER force any action.
I guess I just fundamentally disagree with the faction who champions a player like Derrick while discrediting a player like JJJ. I want a team full of aggressive guys. Guys who don't play scared. Guys who force action. I'll take an aggressive guy who plays to win all day long over a passive and timid player who plays not to screw up all day, every day.
I do agree with you when you ask the question: Why should any player be rewarded for poor play? I don't feel JJJ is mentally weak. Did Derrick earn his 40 yesterday? Seriously, let's hear it. Did he? I see a guy, like Burton, who instead probably wonders WTF do I need to do to get more minutes, when the guy in front of me seemingly doesn't do jack on the floor but keeps getting max minutes.
Maybe I'm wrong here but I feel like there have been a lot of instances where posters have been critically (rightfully) of JJJ and you automatically equate that to championing Derrick when that is not the case. Derrick is miscast - he would be a quality backup PG playing 10-15 minutes on a good team. However, we are not a good team. I don't think Derrick is a good player but I also don't think he is as bad as you make him up to be. I think you undervalue what be brings defensively and while his assist to turnover ratio is partially inflated because he doesn't attack a lot it is still a positive skill.
If JJJ got another 5 MPG directly at the expense of Derrick I've got no issue with that. But I want it to be because he is positively impacting the outcome of the game. If Wojo thinks he is doing so more than Derrick then I think we see that happen. I hope it does but JJJ is in control of that.
I'll leave the Burton discussion for another time.
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Ners commonly downplays predictive stats in part because they are harder to quantify as a viewer than regular box score figures. It was very common in baseball when sabermetrics were first utilized and it's common in basketball as well.
Predictive stats are not perfect (no statistic is), but I prefer them to usual statistics as they attempt to measure the future outcomes instead of becoming a tally of past results.
Because win shares, value add, etc. all require a more cerebral viewing lens than traditional statistical measures it's easy to discount them when a player like Derrick Wilson isn't filling up the traditional stat line.
What's funny about all this is that I played high school basketball too and have come to a completely different opinion than Ners this season about Derrick. Maybe Ners played for a really small school???
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JjJ has better stats when he plays 25 minutes because Wojo rides him when he's hot, benches him when he's not.
5 of JjJ's 25+ minute games before the benching were against sub 100 opponents. 4 of them were sub 150. After the Providence game, he had two terrible games in a row. Wojo sensed the start of a slump, and apparently there was some sort of issue with his practicing. JjJ was benched, and since has improved each game.
Derrick Wilson does earn his time, just not always with things that appear in the box score. Since you love Bama's stats (when they support JjJ) you'll notice the Derrick is number two on our team in terms of value add.
Derrick also gets treated differently than JjJ. It's true. Derrick is a senior captain who has proven through consistent play that he is one of the five best players on the team. JjJ has proven himself to be inconsistent at best. Yesterday he was great. The two games before he was benched, he was terrible. JjJ is a bench player. Derrick is a starter. Bench players have to earn their time more than starters. Any coach would tell you that.
It's true, my assertion that JjJ responded well to the benching and his improved as a result is an opinion. Same as your opinion that JjJ has been this good all along and now Wojo is trying to cover his arse for not playing him more earlier. Neither of us has any proof. Both are valid views.
I choose to believe the opinion that makes our coach look like a strong motivator and our player like a hard worker who is constantly working to improve his game.
Question is, why do you jump to the opinion that makes our coach look like an incompetent villain and our player a self entitled pouter who whines when he doesn't get his way?
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Ners commonly downplays predictive stats in part because they are harder to quantify as a viewer than regular box score figures. It was very common in baseball when sabermetrics were first utilized and it's common in basketball as well.
Predictive stats are not perfect (no statistic is), but I prefer them to usual statistics as they attempt to measure the future outcomes instead of becoming a tally of past results.
Because win shares, value add, etc. all require a more cerebral viewing lens than traditional statistical measures it's easy to discount them when a player like Derrick Wilson isn't filling up the traditional stat line.
What's funny about all this is that I played high school basketball too and have come to a completely different opinion than Ners this season about Derrick. Maybe Ners played for a really small school???
Don't doubt you played ball Matty as we find agreement in many takes. A little confused at what your point is: Aren't predictive stats based on past results? I don't have an issue with predictive or advanced stats at all. I do feel O-Rating in and of itself and by itself is not a good statistic.
As for Derrick. Is he better this year? Yes. Do I feel his win/shares/value add suggest he's an asset as you could argue they do? No. I still feel he's a big drag on the team. At some point you have to look at overall team O-Efficiency. Last year and this year are the two worst O-RAted teams at MU in the last 15 years. Considering your PG is usually your playmaker and engine of your offense - I don't feel it is a mere coincidence that these past two years our offense has been anemic.
And if we are talking win shares - well, the team isn't winning. We won yesterday in spite of him. As has been pointed out, just be sheer virtue of playing major minutes, you are going to garner some stats such as rebounds and assists. The assist to turnover ratio in my view with regard to Derrick is skewed by two things: He plays max minutes and the ball passes through his hands a ton over the course of a game. He rarely turns the ball over, because he rarely forces action/puts himself in harms way. So while he doesn't put himself in harms way, his passive play puts the team in harms way - and thus your worst O-Efficiency ratings for MU teams in the last 15 years - and on teams with solid talent.
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JjJ has better stats when he plays 25 minutes because Wojo rides him when he's hot, benches him when he's not.
5 of JjJ's 25+ minute games before the benching were against sub 100 opponents. 4 of them were sub 150. After the Providence game, he had two terrible games in a row. Wojo sensed the start of a slump, and apparently there was some sort of issue with his practicing. JjJ was benched, and since has improved each game.
Derrick Wilson does earn his time, just not always with things that appear in the box score. Since you love Bama's stats (when they support JjJ) you'll notice the Derrick is number two on our team in terms of value add.
Derrick also gets treated differently than JjJ. It's true. Derrick is a senior captain who has proven through consistent play that he is one of the five best players on the team. JjJ has proven himself to be inconsistent at best. Yesterday he was great. The two games before he was benched, he was terrible. JjJ is a bench player. Derrick is a starter. Bench players have to earn their time more than starters. Any coach would tell you that.
It's true, my assertion that JjJ responded well to the benching and his improved as a result is an opinion. Same as your opinion that JjJ has been this good all along and now Wojo is trying to cover his arse for not playing him more earlier. Neither of us has any proof. Both are valid views.
I choose to believe the opinion that makes our coach look like a strong motivator and our player like a hard worker who is constantly working to improve his game.
Question is, why do you jump to the opinion that makes our coach look like an incompetent villain and our player a self entitled pouter who whines when he doesn't get his way?
So was Wojo riding JJJ in the Ohio State game because he was playing so well? What about NJIT? Was he riding him again there because he was playing so well? If Wojo rides JJJ when he's playing well, why did he limit him to 15 minutes against Tennessee? You could say perhaps the DePaul game too.
I factored in ALL of JJJ's games where he got 25+ minutes - the good games/bad games. The stats are what they are. 13/4/2/3/2
You and your crew are doing whatever you can to try to dissect, discount, and discredit the reality of the stats. Furthermore, you try to say JJJ's been better since the benching?? NO. He hasn't been. Until yesterday, and perhaps Villanova - but those two games weren't anything different than his typical output when given time prior to his benching.
Personally, I don't think our players are self entitled pouters who whine when they don't get their way. I see them being competitors and realists - and when you see guys making the same mistakes as you, yet given much longer leashes - it causes you as a player to lose confidence in the leadership of your coach. And...typically you move on.
I felt Buzz did an awful job last year, and that his head wasn't in the right place - and the results beared that out. As for Wojo, he's made his fair share of mistakes this season as well. He's a rookie head coach, so he gets a pass on some of that. I simply feel he is/was playing Russian Roulette with JJJ by benching him - and the benching was unnecessary. Nor do I blame JJJ being frustrated with Wojo's coaching at the time of the benching.
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Still would like any of the usual head coach slurpers - TAMU, Sultan, OnePost, 82, LIghthouse84 - to actually disprove my points made:
JJJ's production yesterday was essentially the exact same as it was in the other 6 games that he played 25+ minutes - all of which were before the benching. So how can you say the benching was the reason JJJ played well against Seton Hall?? He played well, because he got lots of minutes, just as is the case the other 6 times Wojo let him run.
I know this doesn't fit your narrative, so I'm sure you will find some way to discredit this or change your argument to better suit what your spitting. But I took a look through the play by plays for the first half for all games against Big East or other major conference programs and took a look at JjJ's first half performance for each of these. For some reason, the OSU game's play by play was unavailable on ESPN.com, but we are all well aware of his struggles that game.
Games prior to Xavier benching where JjJ received less than 25 minutes
7 games
7/19 from the field 36.8% from the field
17 points 2.4 ppg (per half)
7 rebounds 1 rpg (per half)
4 Assists .6 apg (per half)
6 Turnovers .9 tpg (per half) 1 assist/1.5 turnover
1 Block .1 bpg (per half)
Games after Xavier benching where JjJ received less than 25 minutes
4 Games
4/15 from the field 26.7% from the field
11 points 2.75 ppg (per half)
5 rebounds 1.25 rbp (per half)
2 Assist .5 apg (per half)
3 Turnovers .75 tpg (per half) 1 assist/1.5 turnover
1 Block .25 bpg (per half)
Games JjJ has received over 25 minutes
3 Games (ASU, SHU, Prov)
11/23 from the field 47.8% from the field
25 points 8.33 ppg (per half)
9 rebounds 3 rpg (per half)
4 assist 1.33 apg (per half)
5 turnovers 1.67 tpg (per half) 1 assist/1.25 turnover
1 block 0.33 bpg (per half)
4 steals 1.33 spg (per half)
But of course, JjJ receiving more minutes has nothing to do with how he is playing in each game ::)
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I know this doesn't fit your narrative, so I'm sure you will find some way to discredit this or change your argument to better suit what your spitting. But I took a look through the play by plays for the first half for all games against Big East or other major conference programs and took a look at JjJ's first half performance for each of these. For some reason, the OSU game's play by play was unavailable on ESPN.com, but we are all well aware of his struggles that game.
Games prior to Xavier benching where JjJ received less than 25 minutes
7 games
7/19 from the field 36.8% from the field
17 points 2.4 ppg (per half)
7 rebounds 1 rpg (per half)
4 Assists .6 apg (per half)
6 Turnovers .9 tpg (per half) 1 assist/1.5 turnover
1 Block .1 bpg (per half)
Games after Xavier benching where JjJ received less than 25 minutes
4 Games
4/15 from the field 26.7% from the field
11 points 2.75 ppg (per half)
5 rebounds 1.25 rbp (per half)
2 Assist .5 apg (per half)
3 Turnovers .75 tpg (per half) 1 assist/1.5 turnover
1 Block .25 bpg (per half)
Games JjJ has received over 25 minutes
3 Games (ASU, SHU, Prov)
11/23 from the field 47.8% from the field
25 points 8.33 ppg (per half)
9 rebounds 3 rpg (per half)
4 assist 1.33 apg (per half)
5 turnovers 1.67 tpg (per half) 1 assist/1.25 turnover
1 block 0.33 bpg (per half)
4 steals 1.33 spg (per half)
But of course, JjJ receiving more minutes has nothing to do with how he is playing in each game ::)
Using predictive analytics, I am guessing Ners will counter with
25 minutes isn't the key point. 25 minutes just represents that he got a good continuous run. Some players need to get into the flow of the game so because of his extended run he produced. At 20-25 minutes a game, he didn't get the continuous run so his clunkers should be excluded.
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Since you are such a fan of stats.
JjJ's line against top 100 opponents pre-benching (avg. rank of team 44):
4.5 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 1.5 apg, 0.1 bpg, 0.8 spg, 1.1 fpg, 1.9 tpg, .295 FG%, .060 3P%
JjJ's line against top 100 opponents post benching (avg. rank of team 31):
6 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 1 apg, 0.4 bpg, 0.4 spg, 0.6 fpg, 1.2 tpg, .324 FG%, .200 3P%
JjJ is doing better across the board, despite tougher competition. The only stats that have gone down are steals and assists. I think the rest of the numbers make up for that.
Maybe its not fair to remove games against sub 100 opponents, but since JjJ has only played against top 55 teams since his benching, it was the only way I knew to make it fair.
For the record, I hate doing this. I hate that in order to prove a point that is obvious to 99% of people that I must tear down one of our own players.
JjJ has struggled against top competition. He devours weak competition. I am hoping that his last two games are a sign that he is getting better. The afterburners that kid has are just plain sick. It is disgusting how fast he can get from one end of the court to the other. If he can keep working on the rest of his game, he will be one helluva player.
Of course, the benching may have nothing to do with his improvement. That is an educated guess of mine. I still hold that I am happy to have a coach that has the balls to bench a player who isn't living up to his expectations. I also love having a player like JjJ who is willing to work to rise to those expectations after being called out on them.
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So was Wojo riding JJJ in the Ohio State game because he was playing so well? What about NJIT? Was he riding him again there because he was playing so well? If Wojo rides JJJ when he's playing well, why did he limit him to 15 minutes against Tennessee? You could say perhaps the DePaul game too.
Those were both early in the year, when Wojo was trying to figure out what he had on the team and give everybody a chance to prove themselves that was performing in practice.
The Tennessee game, JJJ played well, but Duane played out of his damn mind. JJJ got every minute of playing time when Carlino and Duane needed a rest. You are not going to sit Carlino, and you are also not going to sit the player who went of for 30 (Duane). JJJ played well, but was the 3rd best option that game. A trend that continued.
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Still would like any of the usual head coach slurpers - TAMU, Sultan, OnePost, 82, LIghthouse84 - to actually disprove my points made:
I am by no means a "slurper" for Wojo, Ners. There have certainly been instances where his coaching has been frustrating. Us staying with man-to-man for far too long in the beginning of the year (especially against UNO when we were getting burned) given our lack of depth and size (until Luke came in) and him directing the guys to take the air out of the ball after the under-4 timeout against DePaul, Butler, other games we couldn't close when we had a lead are two big instances that pop out for me. But he has shown the ability to adapt and change. He took his experience with Boeheim and Team USA and installed a zone defense that has been VERY solid for most of the year. Yesterday, when our guys were passing up 3-on-1 and 4-on-2 opportunities late, Wojo called a TO and demanded that they keep being aggressive and take it to the hoop when we break their press. And sure enough, JJJ did just that a couple possessions later and dished to Steve for a big dunk. And luckily we held on in the end. That, to me, is very encouraging. That he made some mistakes early in the year and changed for the better as the season went on.
He's a first year head coach coaching a team he did not recruit. All of our deficiencies have been beaten into the ground, but the short of it is that we just aren't that good this year talent-wise. I've already addressed the transfers so I'm not even going to touch on that again (because I know you love bringing up that Mayo and Deonte were talented guys on this team at the start of the year, which is certainly fair, but Wojo building our positive culture from scratch to me is of more importance than keeping talented guys who don't fit in for their own reasons). But I have been very impressed with our product on the court given our major limitations. I ask myself, "Could I see Buzz getting this kind of effort and competition every single game (sans Nova) from this same team?", and I don't think I could whatsoever. Even though we have lost so many games late that we either had in the bag or couldn't get over the hump down the stretch, I love the fight from this team and how close we have been all year.
The only reason I may have come across as a "slurper" for Wojo is because Texas Western was spewing awful garbage about Wojo and our program's culture that I know to be 100% untrue because I know people who are right there with him every day. And being a former manager myself, I was able to add that the culture I experienced was terrible compared to what Wojo vowed to change from Day 1. As a current MU student and diehard fan of our program, I could not sit back and let someone blast our coaches and how far we've come as a program in such a short amount of time, when I know how much good is being done. I've been critical of Wojo and our young staff/team when it's warranted, but overall, I think he is a good man, a genuine man (something Buzz can never say), a fantastic recruiter who parents and players alike can trust, and will become a phenomenal head coach here. But there are growing pains in any process such as this and I have been pleased with how he has handled such growing pains.
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Did Derrick earn his 40 yesterday? Seriously, let's hear it. Did he? I see a guy, like Burton, who instead probably wonders WTF do I need to do to get more minutes, when the guy in front of me seemingly doesn't do jack on the floor but keeps getting max minutes.
Dude, just unnatural carnal knowledgeing give it up. Burton is gone. What he was, used to be, or could have been is irrelevant. He also wasn't "behind" Derrick. Who else do you want Wojo to give some of Derrick's minutes to, the walk-ons?
I am also getting sick of the "if JJJ is here next year" crap that you continually throw out there. If he leaves because Wojo was "too tough" on him so be it.
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I am also getting sick of the "if JJJ is here next year" crap that you continually throw out there. If he leaves because Wojo was "too tough" on him so be it.
It looks like JjJ is manning up and listening and learning "the Wojo way", as opposed to pussing out and whining, "the Ners way".
I hope he continues growing and has a great MU career.
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Dude, just unnatural carnal knowledgeing give it up. Burton is gone. What he was, used to be, or could have been is irrelevant. He also wasn't "behind" Derrick. Who else do you want Wojo to give some of Derrick's minutes to, the walk-ons?
I am also getting sick of the "if JJJ is here next year" crap that you continually throw out there. If he leaves because Wojo was "too tough" on him so be it.
Let me just get this straight: So when select posters continue and don't stop with the whole notion that players such as JJJ - and formerly Burton and Dawson - need to "earn" their time - it's totally off limits for me to ask a simple question about what Derrick does after certain games to "earn" his time?
You (and others) clearly failed to understand what roster options were available for Wojo to play to begin this season. Carlino or Duane could handle the point. Whichever one wasn't designated the primary PG, would be at the 2. You could play JJJ as your third guard. Burton could have been played at the bottom of the zone we used early in non-con play. You'd think Wojo would have known better, but Derrick is his favorite player on the team. And sometimes favorites get preferential treatment. Sadly it got in the way of winning more games this year.
And PS: It's possible the walk ons could have provided the same type of numbers against Seton Hall. :o
So please - to you and the rest of your misguided friends here - unnatural carnal knowledgeing give it up.
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So was Wojo riding JJJ in the Ohio State game because he was playing so well? What about NJIT? Was he riding him again there because he was playing so well? If Wojo rides JJJ when he's playing well, why did he limit him to 15 minutes against Tennessee? You could say perhaps the DePaul game too.
I factored in ALL of JJJ's games where he got 25+ minutes - the good games/bad games. The stats are what they are. 13/4/2/3/2
You and your crew are doing whatever you can to try to dissect, discount, and discredit the reality of the stats. Furthermore, you try to say JJJ's been better since the benching?? NO. He hasn't been. Until yesterday, and perhaps Villanova - but those two games weren't anything different than his typical output when given time prior to his benching.
Personally, I don't think our players are self entitled pouters who whine when they don't get their way. I see them being competitors and realists - and when you see guys making the same mistakes as you, yet given much longer leashes - it causes you as a player to lose confidence in the leadership of your coach. And...typically you move on.
I felt Buzz did an awful job last year, and that his head wasn't in the right place - and the results beared that out. As for Wojo, he's made his fair share of mistakes this season as well. He's a rookie head coach, so he gets a pass on some of that. I simply feel he is/was playing Russian Roulette with JJJ by benching him - and the benching was unnecessary. Nor do I blame JJJ being frustrated with Wojo's coaching at the time of the benching.
(https://i.imgflip.com/het7r.jpg)
(https://imgflip.com/i/het7r)
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It looks like JjJ is manning up and listening and learning "the Wojo way", as opposed to pussing out and whining, "the Ners way".
I hope he continues growing and has a great MU career.
LOL. Learning the "Wojo way?" What's that? When Wojo's hands are tied and he is down to 7 players and pretty much has no choice but to play JJJ - JJJ responds and gives Wojo what he's always given him from the start of the season? Uh. Okay
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So if JJJ ends up transferring it will be because Wojo was playing mind games with him and benching him. And JJJ's success is purely because of whether or not he gets the totally-not-arbitrarily-determined 25+ mpg. The idea that JJJ could be responding to the challenges Wojo has put forth has nothing to do with the equation. Got it.
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So if JJJ ends up transferring it will be because Wojo was playing mind games with him and benching him. And JJJ's success is purely because of whether or not he gets the totally-not-arbitrarily-determined 25+ mpg. The idea that JJJ could be responding to the challenges Wojo has put forth has nothing to do with the equation. Got it.
Not arbitrary. Don't cha know that Wojo hands them all a card before the game with the minutes they will play written on it. That way they all know how hard/well to play.
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You'd think Wojo would have known better, but Derrick is his favorite player on the team. And sometimes favorites get preferential treatment. Sadly it got in the way of winning more games this year.
If only Wojo knew more about basketball than a former prep superduperstar, we'd probably be 23-0 right now and the college hoops world would be asking: "Kentucky who?"
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If only Wojo knew more about basketball than a former prep superduperstar, we'd probably be 23-0 right now and the college hoops world would be asking: "Kentucky who?"
Why won't he post his bona fides? I think I know the answer.
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Why won't he post his bona fides? I think I know the answer.
Ding Ding Ding
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Not arbitrary. Don't cha know that Wojo hands them all a card before the game with the minutes they will play written on it. That way they all know how hard/well to play.
Its interesting that Ners has just chosen to ignore my previous post on his first half performances in games he does/doesn't earn 25 minutes.
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Its interesting that Ners has just chosen to ignore my previous post on his first half performances in games he does/doesn't earn 25 minutes.
So, you admit that you made the post to get a reaction out of Ners. Bordering on narcissism or diva status? Just asking, not accusing.
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Dude, just unnatural carnal knowledgeing give it up. Burton is gone. What he was, used to be, or could have been is irrelevant. He also wasn't "behind" Derrick. Who else do you want Wojo to give some of Derrick's minutes to, the walk-ons?
I-dunked-in-high-school-Rob-Lowe (tip of the cap to Tower) is still banging on about how the PG was taking minutes from the PF? Tells you all you need to know.
Ignore is your friend.
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Not arbitrary. Don't cha know that Wojo hands them all a card before the game with the minutes they will play written on it. That way they all know how hard/well to play.
It's actually at the beginning of the season that Wojo hands them the card. That's why Burton was so disappointed that he transferred-- he had been promised a certain number of minutes no matter what his results were and Wojo didn't live up to the agreement.
See that's what happens when you keep playing basketball after high school like Wojo and the staff did -- you get dumber. High school players--varsity dunkers specifically-- represent the peak of basketball wisdom. After that it's all down hill. (Don't get me started about wrestlers!)
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So, you admit that you made the post to get a reaction out of Ners. Bordering on narcissism or diva status? Just asking, not accusing.
1) WarriorInNYC simply posted some facts, and found it interesting that Ners managed to ignore them. He didn't admit to anything.
2) Even if he was trying to "get a reaction out of Ners", not sure how that's narcissism or being a diva.
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LOL. Learning the "Wojo way?" What's that? When Wojo's hands are tied and he is down to 7 players and pretty much has no choice but to play JJJ - JJJ responds and gives Wojo what he's always given him from the start of the season? Uh. Okay
Ners, did you listen to Wojo after the game or read his comments? I know that I and a few others have posted about them. Wojo said JjJ had his best week of practice leading up to the last game. His playing more was necessitated by having only 7 players but also because he stepped it up in practice. Why don't you give JjJ some credit, that he actually isn't a poofta and instead took the benching like a man and did what was being asked of him? For someone supposedly in his corner, you don't think JjJ is very tough.
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Ners, did you listen to Wojo after the game or read his comments? I know that I and a few others have posted about them. Wojo said JjJ had his best week of practice leading up to the last game. His playing more was necessitated by having only 7 players but also because he stepped it up in practice. Why don't you give JjJ some credit, that he actually isn't a poofta and instead took the benching like a man and did what was being asked of him? For someone supposedly in his corner, you don't think JjJ is very tough.
JJJ being tough and responding positively to some tough coaching isn't in the blender.
Wojo being biased and a poor coach IS currently in the blender.
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It's actually at the beginning of the season that Wojo hands them the card. That's why Burton was so disappointed that he transferred-- he had been promised a certain number of minutes no matter what his results were and Wojo didn't live up to the agreement.
See that's what happens when you keep playing basketball after high school like Wojo and the staff did -- you get dumber. High school players--varsity dunkers specifically-- represent the peak of basketball wisdom. After that it's all down hill. (Don't get me started about wrestlers!)
We snatch the basketball players girlfriend's.
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I-dunked-in-high-school-Rob-Lowe (tip of the cap to Tower) is still banging on about how the PG was taking minutes from the PF? Tells you all you need to know.
Ignore is your friend.
LOL - The fact you can't see that Derrick was playing virtually a forward position on defense, while being paired with 2 other PGs on the offensive end, really speaks to all you know about the game of basketball. You don't need 3 PGs on the floor. Carlino and Duane are/were plenty capable of bringing the ball up as needed.
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Ners, did you listen to Wojo after the game or read his comments? I know that I and a few others have posted about them. Wojo said JjJ had his best week of practice leading up to the last game. His playing more was necessitated by having only 7 players but also because he stepped it up in practice. Why don't you give JjJ some credit, that he actually isn't a poofta and instead took the benching like a man and did what was being asked of him? For someone supposedly in his corner, you don't think JjJ is very tough.
Yes I heard Wojo's comments. Also know Wojo has to cover his ass a little, as it could be very much called into question just WTF Wojo was thinking by limiting JJJ's minutes so much the last 6 games - which were all losses. And as I've posted 100 times that the usual suspects are too dense to realize - JJJ performed right on cue with his season averages in the 6 games (all prior to the benching) of 25+ minutes per game.
If you really believe the benching led to JJJ playing as he did against Seton Hall (when there were 6 other games prior to the benching that suggest the exact same output in the way of production), go ahead and knock yourself out.
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Ners is in full ignorance mode again. His "JJJ is just performing as well as usual" line has been thoroughly debunked, yet he continued to trot it out like it never happened.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46345.msg697005#msg697005
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46345.msg697011#msg697011
He has the whole "cause/effect" thing screwed up again, and has been so thoroughly pantsed on this one that he doesn't even realize he's walking with his underwear down by his ankles.
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We snatch the basketball players girlfriend's.
Yeah, but those 'girlfriends' would actually have to be male to be attractive for a wrestler.
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Ners is in full ignorance mode again. His "JJJ is just performing as well as usual" line has been thoroughly debunked, yet he continued to trot it out like it never happened.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46345.msg697005#msg697005
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46345.msg697011#msg697011
He has the whole "cause/effect" thing screwed up again, and has been so thoroughly pantsed on this one that he doesn't even realize he's walking with his underwear down by his ankles.
I believe you mean, "effect/cause."
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Yeah, but those 'girlfriends' would actually have to be male to be attractive for a wrestler.
says the pretty boy hoops player who had his girlfriend taken.....
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says the pretty boy hoops player who had his girlfriend taken.....
Nah, while we had two UFC fighters in my high school, that's a weeeeeird bunch of dudes.
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Ners is in full ignorance mode again. His "JJJ is just performing as well as usual" line has been thoroughly debunked, yet he continued to trot it out like it never happened.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46345.msg697005#msg697005
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46345.msg697011#msg697011
He has the whole "cause/effect" thing screwed up again, and has been so thoroughly pantsed on this one that he doesn't even realize he's walking with his underwear down by his ankles.
Speaking of the "cause/effect" thing, Sultan, Ner's posts sure cause responses from you (and some others) who pledged not to respond. Now that, is some real "cause/effect". But it does add some entertainment effect, and for that we thank you.
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Yes I heard Wojo's comments. Also know Wojo has to cover his ass a little, as it could be very much called into question just WTF Wojo was thinking by limiting JJJ's minutes so much the last 6 games - which were all losses. And as I've posted 100 times that the usual suspects are too dense to realize - JJJ performed right on cue with his season averages in the 6 games (all prior to the benching) of 25+ minutes per game.
If you really believe the benching led to JJJ playing as he did against Seton Hall (when there were 6 other games prior to the benching that suggest the exact same output in the way of production), go ahead and knock yourself out.
Here is Wojo's exact quote after the game:
Wojo: JJ has had his best practice…his best attitude of the entire yr was over the last week. This was building. His performance today was not just a function of getting up today in Newark and deciding to play. It was a function of great preparation.
If you really believe that Wojo was just covering his ass,I think you need to see someone about the paranoia disorder you seem to have. The facts are 1. Wojo didn't play JjJ in the Xavier game; 2. Immediately afterwards, Wojo says it's because JjJ's performance in practice that week "wasn't good enough;" 3. After the Xavier game, Carlino says he expects JjJ to step up in the future; 4. After the win against the Hall, Wojo makes the coments about JjJ having the best practice and best attitude of the year.
Facts, shmacts, who needs them right Ners? Especially when you can create your own storyline.
I'm still amazed that, for someone who talks up JjJ constantly, you think he's just a giant hairy wet cat who's should run crying from the team instead of manning up and showing he's got some pride.
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Here is Wojo's exact quote after the game:
Wojo: JJ has had his best practice…his best attitude of the entire yr was over the last week. This was building. His performance today was not just a function of getting up today in Newark and deciding to play. It was a function of great preparation.
If you really believe that Wojo was just covering his ass,I think you need to see someone about the paranoia disorder you seem to have. The facts are 1. Wojo didn't play JjJ in the Xavier game; 2. Immediately afterwards, Wojo says it's because JjJ's performance in practice that week "wasn't good enough;" 3. After the Xavier game, Carlino says he expects JjJ to step up in the future; 4. After the win against the Hall, Wojo makes the coments about JjJ having the best practice and best attitude of the year.
Facts, shmacts, who needs them right Ners? Especially when you can create your own storyline.
I'm still amazed that, for someone who talks up JjJ constantly, you think he's just a giant hairy wet cat who's should run crying from the team instead of manning up and showing he's got some pride.
Totally agree. To think that Wojo is so demented, and dumb, that he'd say one thing to the team or individual player and say the opposite to the media to "cover his ass" is really bizarre. If he took that approach he'd not only turn the team against him but also recruits. So if you believe that he does this you believe:
- the administration was completely duped.
- Coach K kept him on for 15 years, had him as his halftime media spokesman, and promoted him to associate coach despite this fatal flaw in his ability to relate to players.
- the team is playing as hard as they are despite not trusting their coach that undermines them.
- signed recruits don't talk to each other, current players, or anyone that has played for Wojo previously
and if you believe the above you believe the program truly has no hope - ignorant administration, recruits bailing on their commitments, mass transfers (don't argue Burton on this unless you really believe the above 4 points), and no high profile coaches would be consider the Marquette job. On all the above you'd be wrong.
P.S. my favorite Wojo determining who gets the least playing minutes scenario is that every time he is near the player he is going to "throw under the bus" he quietly sings 'The wheels on the bus go round and round' so only that player can hear him. This goes on for days/weeks until the player starts playing better or leaves.
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Here is Wojo's exact quote after the game:
Wojo: JJ has had his best practice…his best attitude of the entire yr was over the last week. This was building. His performance today was not just a function of getting up today in Newark and deciding to play. It was a function of great preparation.
If you really believe that Wojo was just covering his ass,I think you need to see someone about the paranoia disorder you seem to have. The facts are 1. Wojo didn't play JjJ in the Xavier game; 2. Immediately afterwards, Wojo says it's because JjJ's performance in practice that week "wasn't good enough;" 3. After the Xavier game, Carlino says he expects JjJ to step up in the future; 4. After the win against the Hall, Wojo makes the coments about JjJ having the best practice and best attitude of the year.
Facts, shmacts, who needs them right Ners? Especially when you can create your own storyline.
I'm still amazed that, for someone who talks up JjJ constantly, you think he's just a giant hairy wet cat who's should run crying from the team instead of manning up and showing he's got some pride.
So JJJ must have had some great attitude and practices leading up to the 6 other games prior to his benching where he played 25+ minutes to perform just as he did against Seton Hall, right?
Look, I'm sure Wojo wants the glory and spotlight for JJJ's nice performance Saturday. As if the "message" he sent by benching JJJ against Xavier somehow served a miraculous purpose and was the catalyst for Saturday's performance against Seton Hall. Essentially Wojo is trying to say that due to his attitude and practice leading up to Seton Hall - this moment was building. I'd go along with that premise, if of course there weren't 6 other games prior to his benching that didn't bear out he'll put up similar numbers to the Seton Hall performance if he gets ample time of 25+.
A critical fan might wonder why Wojo was limiting JJJ's playing time SO much during our 6 game losing streak, considering his overall production when given good minutes on the season prior to the benching. Limiting JJJ as much as he has since early January has been just one of several poor coaching/personnel decisions Wojo has made this year. But, he's a rookie, and he'll hopefully get better.
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Totally agree. To think that Wojo is so demented, and dumb, that he'd say one thing to the team or individual player and say the opposite to the media to "cover his ass" is really bizarre. If he took that approach he'd not only turn the team against him but also recruits. So if you believe that he does this you believe:
- the administration was completely duped.
- Coach K kept him on for 15 years, had him as his halftime media spokesman, and promoted him to associate coach despite this fatal flaw in his ability to relate to players.
- the team is playing as hard as they are despite not trusting their coach that undermines them.
- signed recruits don't talk to each other, current players, or anyone that has played for Wojo previously
and if you believe the above you believe the program truly has no hope - ignorant administration, recruits bailing on their commitments, mass transfers (don't argue Burton on this unless you really believe the above 4 points), and no high profile coaches would be consider the Marquette job. On all the above you'd be wrong.
P.S. my favorite Wojo determining who gets the least playing minutes scenario is that every time he is near the player he is going to "throw under the bus" he quietly sings 'The wheels on the bus go round and round' so only that player can hear him. This goes on for days/weeks until the player starts playing better or leaves.
Ners bought what family members and those connected with the players were saying about Wojo hook, line and sinker. He has to double-down on this now otherwise he'd have to admit he probably was listening to the wrong people. Really it's to the point that he is completely ignoring facts presented repeatedly in this thread.
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Look, I'm sure Wojo wants the glory and spotlight for JJJ's nice performance Saturday. As if the "message" he sent by benching JJJ against Xavier somehow served a miraculous purpose and was the catalyst for Saturday's performance against Seton Hall. Essentially Wojo is trying to say that due to his attitude and practice leading up to Seton Hall - this moment was building. I'd go along with that premise, if of course there weren't 6 other games prior to his benching that didn't bear out he'll put up similar numbers to the Seton Hall performance if he gets ample time of 25+.
Yes, Wojo pulled this stunt just to get glory and spotlight for JjJ's performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo-YVqV0v4Q
A critical fan might wonder why Wojo was limiting JJJ's playing time SO much during our 6 game losing streak, considering his overall production when given good minutes on the season prior to the benching. Limiting JJJ as much as he has since early January has been just one of several poor coaching/personnel decisions Wojo has made this year. But, he's a rookie, and he'll hopefully get better.
So his playing time being limited during those 6 games had nothing to do with him performing poorly within the first halves at all, as I and others have pointed out? And the games where he has gotten more minutes has nothing to do with him playing well in the first half, as I pointed out in my post?
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Ners, we've been over this before. JjJ had 7, not 6, games of 25+ minutes before the benching. Of those 7, 5 were against sub 100 teams, 4 were against sub 150 teams, 2 were against sub 250 teams. The two games against the top 100? His two worst of the seven. Are you really going to sit here and champion a player who feasts on cupcakes and disappears against the tougher competition?
The kid is improving. Villanova had been his best game in a while and Seton Hall was has best outside of Arizona State. That is the first time in his career that has put two strong performances against top 100 competition back to back in his entire career. The kid struggles with consistancy. Let's just be happy that he seems to be on his way to finding some.
Your comments on Wojo are pure fantasy. What about Wojo has struck as the kind of coach who steals the spotlight from his players? In fact, how was his comments stealing the spotlight at all? Wojo was crediting JjJ for putting in the hard work in practice and having it pay off come game day.
Covering his ass? That argument only works when a coach is unwilling to admit when he's made a mistake. But after the Depaul game, Wojo said, word for word, "I made a mistake not playing Sandy." Funny, that he doesn't say the same about JjJ after the Xavier game. Is it possible that Wojo is willing to admit one mistake, but not the other? Sure. But once again, the much simpler solution, the one that doesn't require a conspiracy theory, the one the evidence points to, is that Wojo felt the benching was warranted and still feels the benching was warranted today.
Can't we all just be happy that JjJ played well? We won! Hopefully he'll continue to play well, and we'll continue to win.
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So JJJ must have had some great attitude and practices leading up to the 6 other games prior to his benching where he played 25+ minutes to perform just as he did against Seton Hall, right?
Look, I'm sure Wojo wants the glory and spotlight for JJJ's nice performance Saturday. As if the "message" he sent by benching JJJ against Xavier somehow served a miraculous purpose and was the catalyst for Saturday's performance against Seton Hall. Essentially Wojo is trying to say that due to his attitude and practice leading up to Seton Hall - this moment was building. I'd go along with that premise, if of course there weren't 6 other games prior to his benching that didn't bear out he'll put up similar numbers to the Seton Hall performance if he gets ample time of 25+.
A critical fan might wonder why Wojo was limiting JJJ's playing time SO much during our 6 game losing streak, considering his overall production when given good minutes on the season prior to the benching. Limiting JJJ as much as he has since early January has been just one of several poor coaching/personnel decisions Wojo has made this year. But, he's a rookie, and he'll hopefully get better.
I agree with your analysis on JJJ and Perspective on Wojo. He is the one making the rookie mistakes.
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Ners bought what family members and those connected with the players were saying about Wojo hook, line and sinker. He has to double-down on this now otherwise he'd have to admit he probably was listening to the wrong people. Really it's to the point that he is completely ignoring facts presented repeatedly in this thread.
(http://www.nea.org/assets/img/pubToday/0804/0804TryThis01.jpg)
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Ners bought what family members and those connected with the players were saying about Wojo hook, line and sinker. He has to double-down on this now otherwise he'd have to admit he probably was listening to the wrong people. Really it's to the point that he is completely ignoring facts presented repeatedly in this thread.
unfortunately i've been lurking long enough to understand the angle they (adding TW and probably WojosMojo) are taking towards the program. i profess to being under the influence of just having enough of the idiotic logic to simultaneously try to position the detractors into actually stating an arguement that isn't based on ignoring facts/rational perspective and putting the kids to bed. i probably just opened myself up to some nuance of my phrasing that their narrative can pick apart or the post will be ignored.
i do appreciate the response as a confirmation of my sanity. AND i rocked at getting the kids fed, bathed and tucked in.....lots of similarities between their logic and what i read here.
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I agree with your analysis on JJJ and Perspective on Wojo. He is the one making the rookie mistakes.
Says the guy with obvious ties to JjJ. You never did, and probably never will, say what those ties are. Are you afraid to say you're a family member or former coach who has a bias in favor of JjJ and against anything WoJo does that might not be 100% in favor of JjJ doing whatever he wanted?
Ners's analysis has more made up in it than Brian Williams stories. Nothing based on facts.
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Nvm
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I agree with your analysis on JJJ and Perspective on Wojo. He is the one making the rookie mistakes.
And.........right on cue.
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I agree with your analysis on JJJ and Perspective on Wojo. He is the one making the rookie mistakes.
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(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/df/dfd4e58ebe6504393463735fabf8f0d3af2142eb3a4e38c4a9b80681606eeed3.jpg)
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SMH that this thread is still going on.
It's simple. Just like Sandy worked hard, practiced well, and bought in and consequently earned minutes, Jajuan is doing the same. Yes, Carlino's injury opened the door a little wider, but as TAMU noted this is the first string of well played back to back games against good competition in Jajuan's career. And if he keeps practicing and playing well, he'll continue to earn minutes.
Wojo has been a model of consistency this year. Guys that do what he wants play the most minutes and have the longest leash. Guys that make boneheaded mistakes and don't play within the system have a shorter leash and need to earn it. Sandy earned it. JJJ is earning it. This doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out, just two eyes and an iota of common sense.
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unfortunately i've been lurking long enough to understand the angle they (adding TW and probably WojosMojo) are taking towards the program. i profess to being under the influence of just having enough of the idiotic logic to simultaneously try to position the detractors into actually stating an arguement that isn't based on ignoring facts/rational perspective and putting the kids to bed. i probably just opened myself up to some nuance of my phrasing that their narrative can pick apart or the post will be ignored.
i do appreciate the response as a confirmation of my sanity. AND i rocked at getting the kids fed, bathed and tucked in.....lots of similarities between their logic and what i read here.
See, I don't have a problem if people would just say the following: "I think JJJ should play more. He has a great deal of potential and think that he is going to be important to this team not only for the rest of this year, but for the next two years as well." Now people might not agree with this, and that's OK. That's what this board is about.
I have a problem with the tortured logic and the whacked out "mind game" theories about why the coach isn't playing JJJ more. It was the same thing last year with the entire "stick it to the administration" bullsh*t. Cmon...Buzz and Wojo disagree with you. No more. No less.
(http://www.shelleycarson.com/wp-content/plugins/Creative-Brain/images/carson-image1.png)
Why do some people want to take the path on the right instead of the pretty much straight-forward path on the left?
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See, I don't have a problem if people would just say the following: "I think JJJ should play more. He has a great deal of potential and think that he is going to be important to this team not only for the rest of this year, but for the next two years as well." Now people might not agree with this, and that's OK. That's what this board is about.
I have a problem with the tortured logic and the whacked out "mind game" theories about why the coach isn't playing JJJ more. It was the same thing last year with the entire "stick it to the administration" bullsh*t. Cmon...Buzz and Wojo disagree with you. No more. No less.
(http://www.shelleycarson.com/wp-content/plugins/Creative-Brain/images/carson-image1.png)
Why do some people want to take the path on the right instead of the pretty much straight-forward path on the left?
From my perspective I believe the Coaches have taken tortuous path you outlined above and have tried to sell it to the public as the straight path. That is my basic issue about this administration. I think they say one thing and do another. The onus is on them just as much as the player.
I believe JJJ does not only have potential, but he has proven on many occasions that he is a strong and effective driver of the ball excellent in transiton looks for open men on the run etc. A player of his caliber is key to our success this year and the next two years. We just earned a road victory against an athletic team that has been in the top 25 part of the year. JJJ got the minutes and he delivered. At the end of the day we want the team to win and to do that we need the best players on the team in the game. That to me is the straightforward A to B logic you outlined. Best Players =Best Chance for MU to Win Games.
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From my perspective I believe the Coaches have taken tortuous path you outlined above and have tried to sell it to the public as the straight path. That is my basic issue about this administration. I think they say one thing and do another. The onus is on them just as much as the player.
What exactly has Wojo done that is hypocritical? What is he saying but not doing?
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From my perspective I believe the Coaches have taken tortuous path you outlined above and have tried to sell it to the public as the straight path.
If you have a perspective that isn't from the viewpoint of the rest of us (the public), why don't you tell us what you base your perspective on? Unless you have some inside tie to JjJ, John Dawson or other player, all of your words are mere conjecture.
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It's simple. Just like Sandy worked hard, practiced well, and bought in and consequently earned minutes, Jajuan is doing the same. Yes, Carlino's injury opened the door a little wider, but as TAMU noted this is the first string of well played back to back games against good competition in Jajuan's career. And if he keeps practicing and playing well, he'll continue to earn minutes.
Pshhhawwwww! Everyone knows that is isn't about practicing well, playing within the team, or improving your defense--none of that is important. What is important is crossing the 25 mpg mark, then you obviously play well...but then you have to watch out for the evil coach who tries to steal your glory. It's simply Lojik 101 my friend.
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What exactly has Wojo done that is hypocritical? What is he saying but not doing?
This is what I want to know, what what I see and hear, Wojo is the most straight forward coach since Hank. What do other people see that says otherwise, I really want to know. And I don't mean conspiracy theory type of stuff like player A is clearly being toyed with.....I mean where he says something out loud and does something different in real life.
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*** Response to Texas Western ***
Except that's pure conjecture that goes against everything the staff has been saying. Wojo cited practice as the reason Johnson didn't play and his own mistake as the reason Cohen didn't play at DePaul. Since then we've seen Cohen's improved play, defense, and corresponding minutes. Since Jajuan's benching, we've seen him be more selective with shots, playing better (still not exemplary but better) defense, and heard the coach cite his practice and work ethic as the reason.
Either the painfully obvious path is the reason, or the coach is a pathological liar. While one could believe that, there is no evidence of that. The evidence we have is both Sandy and Jajuan earning minutes with hard work and consistent play. The evidence we have is Luke doing the same as he went from bench player to starter. The evidence we have is the experienced players catching on earlier (Juan, Matt, Derrick, Steve) and seeing minutes earlier. The evidence we have is those experienced players (especially Steve, but also Juan) getting less minutes when they make mistakes or don't perform.
We have a mountain of evidence showing how this staff operates along with the words of the head coach that backs that up. Then we have a minority of posters that say that evidence is wrong and it's all mind games, but they can't prove it, we just have to take their word for it.
Over the past 6 years, we did see a lot of mind games. Buzz always said if a player didn't have a chip on his shoulder, he'd put one there. For some guys, that worked really well. For last year's team, it didn't. Buzz's typical chip strategy (seen by many as mind games) wasn't as effective with Derrick, Jamil, Juan, Davante, and Todd. Derrick was too disciplined, Jamil and Juan were too laid back, and Davante and Todd were too ambivalent. It wasn't a good personality mix for Buzz's mental strategy. So yes, that led to "mind games" and probably created this fear of conspiracies from the coaching staff that we see carried over and projected to Wojo. But remember, those same "mind games" worked great with Jimmy, Jae, and Vander, among others.
I don't see any mind games here. I don't see any conspiracy. There is no evidence of that. I guess I can't stop anyone from believing it. There will always be people for whom the blatant evidence and simplest path isn't enough. Just realize that you are espousing these beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence that contradicts your claims with no evidence of your own. That's why you meet resistance.
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"JJJ's six good games" is the new "Dawson's game against G'town."
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From my perspective I believe the Coaches have taken tortuous path you outlined above and have tried to sell it to the public as the straight path. That is my basic issue about this administration. I think they say one thing and do another. The onus is on them just as much as the player.
I believe JJJ does not only have potential, but he has proven on many occasions that he is a strong and effective driver of the ball excellent in transiton looks for open men on the run etc. A player of his caliber is key to our success this year and the next two years. We just earned a road victory against an athletic team that has been in the top 25 part of the year. JJJ got the minutes and he delivered. At the end of the day we want the team to win and to do that we need the best players on the team in the game. That to me is the straightforward A to B logic you outlined. Best Players =Best Chance for MU to Win Games.
I'm just curious about your take on what would motivate Wojo to treat JJJ unjustly? What would Wojo have to gain from being deceitful and cruel to JJJ?
I have learned throughout life to be open to all possibilities about pretty much everything, but I usually insist upon some logic when evaluating multiple scenarios. Unless you can enlighten me, I am having trouble coming to grips with why Wojo would want to dump all over JJJ.
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So JJJ must have had some great attitude and practices leading up to the 6 other games prior to his benching where he played 25+ minutes to perform just as he did against Seton Hall, right?
Look, I'm sure Wojo wants the glory and spotlight for JJJ's nice performance Saturday. As if the "message" he sent by benching JJJ against Xavier somehow served a miraculous purpose and was the catalyst for Saturday's performance against Seton Hall. Essentially Wojo is trying to say that due to his attitude and practice leading up to Seton Hall - this moment was building. I'd go along with that premise, if of course there weren't 6 other games prior to his benching that didn't bear out he'll put up similar numbers to the Seton Hall performance if he gets ample time of 25+.
A critical fan might wonder why Wojo was limiting JJJ's playing time SO much during our 6 game losing streak, considering his overall production when given good minutes on the season prior to the benching. Limiting JJJ as much as he has since early January has been just one of several poor coaching/personnel decisions Wojo has made this year. But, he's a rookie, and he'll hopefully get better.
Plain and Simple Ners. You were never a high level HS basketball player. This post indicates that, at best, you were an end of the bench whiner and cancer on the team. You may have been cut by your freshman coach, reflecting your bitterness to all coaches. See, I can speculate about crap too.
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"JJJ's six good games" is the new "Dawson's game against G'town."
Meme watch list
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So...if Jajuan ends up sticking around and becomes a good or even great player for Marquette, will it all be in spite of Wojo, or because of Wojo? If he plays 20-30 mpg the rest of the year with improved production and effort, will it be in spite of Wojo or because of Wojo?
Personally, I know when a boss has challenged me to improve and I did so, I'm happy to attribute part of that to the boss. Something tells me if Jajuan improves and earns minutes, some here we'll be incapable of doing the same.
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So...if Jajuan ends up sticking around and becomes a good or even great player for Marquette, will it all be in spite of Wojo, or because of Wojo? If he plays 20-30 mpg the rest of the year with improved production and effort, will it be in spite of Wojo or because of Wojo?
Personally, I know when a boss has challenged me to improve and I did so, I'm happy to attribute part of that to the boss. Something tells me if Jajuan improves and earns minutes, some here we'll be incapable of doing the same.
It's the tiger rock
Person 1 in US office: I have a tiger rock I'll sell you, prevents tigers from attacking you.
Person 2 in US office: That's amazing, how'd you get the rock?
Person 1: I found it, pretty cool huh?
Person 2: Yeah it is, I'm interested in buying it, how do I know it works?
Person 1: How do you know it works???? I've never been attacked by a tiger! Of course it works!
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unfortunately i've been lurking long enough to understand the angle they (adding TW and probably WojosMojo) are taking towards the program. i profess to being under the influence of just having enough of the idiotic logic to simultaneously try to position the detractors into actually stating an arguement that isn't based on ignoring facts/rational perspective and putting the kids to bed. i probably just opened myself up to some nuance of my phrasing that their narrative can pick apart or the post will be ignored.
i do appreciate the response as a confirmation of my sanity. AND i rocked at getting the kids fed, bathed and tucked in.....lots of similarities between their logic and what i read here.
Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
(http://media0.giphy.com/media/ZNMZg2vTByQ8w/200.gif)
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
(http://gifsb.in/hat-tip/5ajbeWB.gif)
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
My God....this is perfect.
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
(http://i.giphy.com/ijoJB1vGhLdde.gif)
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
Great stuff, connie.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for TW and/or Ners to explain -- with facts, not conjecture -- what possible motivation Wojo would have to dump on JJJ. I've asked multiple times but no response. Perhaps they're too busy playing on the Holodeck.
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See, I don't have a problem if people would just say the following: "I think JJJ should play more. He has a great deal of potential and think that he is going to be important to this team not only for the rest of this year, but for the next two years as well." Now people might not agree with this, and that's OK. That's what this board is about.
I have a problem with the tortured logic and the whacked out "mind game" theories about why the coach isn't playing JJJ more. It was the same thing last year with the entire "stick it to the administration" bullsh*t. Cmon...Buzz and Wojo disagree with you. No more. No less.
(http://www.shelleycarson.com/wp-content/plugins/Creative-Brain/images/carson-image1.png)
Why do some people want to take the path on the right instead of the pretty much straight-forward path on the left?
Sultan--what is wrong with you? Diagram b. is the correct route when you are dodging machine gun fire!
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Connie could drop the mic and walk off the stage, but she seems too level headed to do that.
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I suggest that we all use the single word 'connie' every time a more long winded explanation would have previously been offered. You have done us a great service.
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I understand it must be incredibly frustrating to see JJJ perform well against Seton Hall for those who tried to disagree with my original post on this topic.
I understand many of the same posters who passionately disagree with me here, just as they did last year about Buzz's coaching, probably are tired of having our on court performance support my positions/arguments.
I understand people have gone to GREAT lengths to try to discredit the stats I provided in this original post - cherry picking as best they can to support their flawed position.
I understand many of these same people are the same who beat the drum of what an effective and solid and contributing player Derrick Wilson is to this team - just as they did last year - as did Buzz and now Wojo. Meanwhile, the losses rack up at the highest rate in 15 years - and the only constant of the last two seasons has been Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes. I am still curious about what Derrick is doing to "earn" all those minutes. You'd think at some point he'd hit the bench in a game where he's 0-6 from the field, 1-4 from the FT line and commits 4 turnovers might lead to some bench time no? But what happens instead?? He plays the whole game. LOL. And you think teammates don't get frustrated by the double standard that applies for the coaches favorite?!
I understand people are getting all excited about next year's recruiting class, but other than Henry Ellenson, it doesn't really matter if we signed 3 other Top 100 players as recruiting rankings don't matter.
I understand that it is beyond reason for coaches paid millions of dollars to make mistakes with regard to their decision making. Even though it just happened to Pete Carroll, Mike McCarthy. Bill Belicheck had Tom Brady riding the bench behind his trusty vet, Drew Bledsoe. Wojo benches a red hot Duane Wilson in the Georgetown game from the 7:50 mark to 3:35 mark of the game for no reason. We've imploded down the stretch in multiple games this year, taking the air out of the ball and playing a conservative brand of basketball - spearheaded of course by our ultra conservative PG.
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I honestly have never heard a single reputable basketball commentator treat "Minutes Played" as the cause and "Performance" as the effect as you so passionately defend. How come that is?
edit: I'll add that people use the arguments "He's playing so well, why doesn't he get on the court more" or "man, we really overused him, and his production dropped towards the end as a result". The "this guy NEEDS 25 minutes to perform well" is distinctly rare to find.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/hgol6.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/hgol6) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
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I-dunked-in-high-school-Rob-Lowe. Nice.
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I honestly have never heard a single reputable basketball commentator treat "Minutes Played" as the cause and "Performance" as the effect as you so passionately defend. How come that is?
edit: I'll add that people use the arguments "He's playing so well, why doesn't he get on the court more" or "man, we really overused him, and his production dropped towards the end as a result". The "this guy NEEDS 25 minutes to perform well" is distinctly rare to find.
It's a simple disconnect from logic, and attempts to create straw men to defend the argument because clearly it doesn't stand on its own.
The player desires minutes, which is the effect that is caused by good practice and performance. Only an idiot would argue that the minutes lead to good performance.
Why is no one arguing that the Mache brothers should get 25+ mpg? Do we not believe they would perform given the time? And if people think Derrick isn't performing, shouldn't he then play 35-40 minutes to improve his performance?
Logical fallacies supporting more logical fallacies.
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I understand it must be incredibly frustrating to see JJJ perform well against Seton Hall for those who tried to disagree with my original post on this topic.
I understand many of the same posters who passionately disagree with me here, just as they did last year about Buzz's coaching, probably are tired of having our on court performance support my positions/arguments.
I understand people have gone to GREAT lengths to try to discredit the stats I provided in this original post - cherry picking as best they can to support their flawed position.
I understand many of these same people are the same who beat the drum of what an effective and solid and contributing player Derrick Wilson is to this team - just as they did last year - as did Buzz and now Wojo. Meanwhile, the losses rack up at the highest rate in 15 years - and the only constant of the last two seasons has been Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes. I am still curious about what Derrick is doing to "earn" all those minutes. You'd think at some point he'd hit the bench in a game where he's 0-6 from the field, 1-4 from the FT line and commits 4 turnovers might lead to some bench time no? But what happens instead?? He plays the whole game. LOL. And you think teammates don't get frustrated by the double standard that applies for the coaches favorite?!
I understand people are getting all excited about next year's recruiting class, but other than Henry Ellenson, it doesn't really matter if we signed 3 other Top 100 players as recruiting rankings don't matter.
I understand that it is beyond reason for coaches paid millions of dollars to make mistakes with regard to their decision making. Even though it just happened to Pete Carroll, Mike McCarthy. Bill Belicheck had Tom Brady riding the bench behind his trusty vet, Drew Bledsoe. Wojo benches a red hot Duane Wilson in the Georgetown game from the 7:50 mark to 3:35 mark of the game for no reason. We've imploded down the stretch in multiple games this year, taking the air out of the ball and playing a conservative brand of basketball - spearheaded of course by our ultra conservative PG.
Not every coach is correct in every situation. We can all admit that. Great.
But, you're twisting yourself into knots trying to support your narrative.
Occams Razor.
From Wiki:
"For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there is always an infinite number of possible and more complex alternatives, because one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypothesis to prevent them from being falsified; therefore, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are better testable and falsifiable"
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
Spot on post. But especially the last few sentences.
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I understand it must be incredibly frustrating to see JJJ perform well against Seton Hall for those who tried to disagree with my original post on this topic.
Incredibly false. I absolutely loved watching JjJ play extremely well against SHU. It was a great sign of things to come. We would not have won that game without him.
I understand people have gone to GREAT lengths to try to discredit the stats I provided in this original post - cherry picking as best they can to support their flawed position.
I understand many of these same people are the same who beat the drum of what an effective and solid and contributing player Derrick Wilson is to this team - just as they did last year - as did Buzz and now Wojo. Meanwhile, the losses rack up at the highest rate in 15 years - and the only constant of the last two seasons has been Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes. I am still curious about what Derrick is doing to "earn" all those minutes. You'd think at some point he'd hit the bench in a game where he's 0-6 from the field, 1-4 from the FT line and commits 4 turnovers might lead to some bench time no? But what happens instead?? He plays the whole game. LOL. And you think teammates don't get frustrated by the double standard that applies for the coaches favorite?!
What about my first half performance stats were "cherry-picked"? Can you please explain this? There was a direct correlation to JjJ's first half performances to games where he received more than your magical 25 minutes played.
And lets go ahead and bring Derrick's stats up for the SHU game since you wanted to talk about it. His first half stats were:
0/2
1 Point
4 Assists
1 Steal
1 Rebound
1 Block
1 Turnover
Don't see at all how those stats would not lead to Wojo benching him. 2 of his 4 TO's came in the last 4 minutes, 1 in the last minute. Those are mistakes he currently does not make, and at the end of the game when ball security is a must. Terrible for Derrick to make those mistakes, yes. Not sure at all who you would have Wojo put in the game there in that situation.
I understand that it is beyond reason for coaches paid millions of dollars to make mistakes with regard to their decision making. Even though it just happened to Pete Carroll, Mike McCarthy. Bill Belicheck had Tom Brady riding the bench behind his trusty vet, Drew Bledsoe. Wojo benches a red hot Duane Wilson in the Georgetown game from the 7:50 mark to 3:35 mark of the game for no reason. We've imploded down the stretch in multiple games this year, taking the air out of the ball and playing a conservative brand of basketball - spearheaded of course by our ultra conservative PG.
Wojo has made plenty of questionable coaching decisions. Not continuing to ride Duane against G'Town being one of them. Not switching to man against X was another in my mind. Not bringing Luke back in against SHU early enough or fouling late another. Nobody here is denying the man is making mistakes in his first year of coaching. Continuing to play Derrick when he provides consistent, low scoring minutes while providing distribution and defense is not one of them. Not playing JjJ more than 25 minutes in games where he is struggling is not another.
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
I understand how you get sucked in. You see a point that you think you address with a reasoned example that might cause the poster to consider an alternate world view. The poster comes back with a different example that sounds unlikely but might be possible, but doesn't really address the point you make. The poster then provides some cherry picked stats to support a different but related opinion while acting as if the causal link between the stat and his opinion incontrovertible. After you go back and forth a bit the examples that you are given become more and more outrageous. Then you start to notice that the alleged motivations assigned to all of the identified failures of "subject x" and his nefarious deeds begin to conflict not just with the reality of "subject x's" past actions and statements, but with other examples the poster has provided.
At this point you start to realize that you might as well be talking to someone that believes that the world is really governed by the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. They put people like the 9/11 Truthers to shame in their slavish devotion to the fantasy that they are the ones "in the know" and that the rest of us are mindless lemmings whose every act and question are all a part of some grand form of world domination, like you are stuck in some pod hooked up to the Matrix and only they have swallowed the red pill. You finally begin to realize that there is simply nothing that you are going to be able to do to break through the self worth the poster derives from their self-absorbed obsession, fueled by their continued demonstration that only they have the ability to see behind the curtain. The sense of superiority over you they gain from living this fantasy cannot be dispelled. Occasionally they will either go too far or their intransigence will start to turn people off, so they concede a few issues to try to reestablish their "reasonability." That draws others back in, and starts the cycle all over again.
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
This needs to go alongside Ammo's beatdown of Ners in the Scoop Hall of Fame.
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This needs to go alongside Ammo's beatdown of Ners in the Scoop Hall of Fame.
Despite which, he STILL insists he knows more than the PR professionals...along with his supposed high school experience giving him more knowledge than coaches that played high-major and professional ball. And claims Wojo is lying to steal JJJ's glory. And Buzz was sticking it to the administration and intentionally throwing games.
Seriously y'all, you're arguing with a mentally unbalanced person.
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It's a simple disconnect from logic, and attempts to create straw men to defend the argument because clearly it doesn't stand on its own.
The player desires minutes, which is the effect that is caused by good practice and performance. Only an idiot would argue that the minutes lead to good performance.
Why is no one arguing that the Mache brothers should get 25+ mpg? Do we not believe they would perform given the time? And if people think Derrick isn't performing, shouldn't he then play 35-40 minutes to improve his performance?
Logical fallacies supporting more logical fallacies.
Newsflash: Basketball is not a science, it is an art. Logic of the academia world doesn't apply. You cannot apply PURE logic to an art.
As I've said 100 times, just because a player comes into a game and misses his first two shots and has a turnover - it does NOT mean he is going to suck for the whole game.
You guys take such a narrow view - to think that JJJ or any other player - can only have a good game if they start the game playing well from the tip. That just isn't how it works. Period. Not that hard to understand. Do you really believe at this level with all the time these guys have played basketball, their skill level is so variable and volatile from game to game?? As if a guy a this level starts a game poorly, he is completely incapable of turning it around??
The 7 game sample size of games where JJJ played 25+ includes his "clunkers" of Ohio State and NJIT. A guy of course isn't always going to perform to his averages. Yet, it is far more likely you will get 13.5ppg, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 steals and 2.5 turnovers out of JJJ if you play him 25+.
Those numbers are combined from low major to high major competition. They are what they are. And it is ridiculous to think the Xavier benching somehow brought on improved performance from JJJ. It hasn't. The numbers don't support that position whatsoever.
But, I understand the same usual posters who want to back Wojo on every single god dang decision he makes simply refuse to believe he can be beyond making mistakes with regard to his playing time/personnel decisions. Ultimately, our record is a reflection of his decision making. I don't believe it is any coincidence that we lost all 5 games starting with Xavier when Wojo limited JJJ to 0 minutes to a max of 17. Nor do I think it is a coincidence that when Wojo gave JJJ exactly 7 minutes 10 days prior against Seton Hall and we got blown off the floor at home, yet 10 days later when he plays him 35 minutes we win on the road (without our best player).
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But, I understand the same usual posters who want to back Wojo on every single god dang decision he makes simply refuse to believe he can be beyond making mistakes with regard to his playing time/personnel decisions.
Just so you're clear, nobody has ever f*cking said this.
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I understand it must be incredibly frustrating to see JJJ perform well against Seton Hall for those who tried to disagree with my original post on this topic.
This is yet another example of you being wrong.
Any true MU fan - there are many of us here - are thrilled to see a backup step up and have a great game when a starter goes down. Just like any true MU fan must have been thrilled when Derrick stepped up after Junior got injured against Pitt a couple years ago.
You are so focused on the individual players you like vs the ones you don't like that you can't simply be happy when any MU player does well.
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Took Ners off block so I could do this....oh and I can't believe it took me so long to ignore him ;D
Anatomy of a Ners argument:
Newsflash: Basketball is not a science, it is an art. Logic of the academia world doesn't apply. You cannot apply PURE logic to an art. Obfuscating to muddy the waters initially
As I've said 100 times, just because a player comes into a game and misses his first two shots and has a turnover - it does NOT mean he is going to suck for the whole game. Statement that isn't wrong or right, merely irrelevant to the conversation
You guys take such a narrow view - to think that JJJ or any other player - can only have a good game if they start the game playing well from the tip. That just isn't how it works. Period. Opinion stated as a fact with no evidence other than high school "experience" Not that hard to understand. Do you really believe at this level with all the time these guys have played basketball, their skill level is so variable and volatile from game to game?? As if a guy a this level starts a game poorly, he is completely incapable of turning it around??
The 7 game sample size of games where JJJ played 25+ includes his "clunkers" of Ohio State and NJIT. A guy of course isn't always going to perform to his averages. Yet, it is far more likely you will get 13.5ppg, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 steals and 2.5 turnovers out of JJJ if you play him 25+. Opinion stated as fact, with a dusting of revisionist history because statistics aren't mailable for the argument present as facts to work. Abandon facts when convenient
Those numbers are combined from low major to high major competition. They are what they are. And it is ridiculous to think the Xavier benching somehow brought on improved performance from JJJ. Opinion with no basis in anything relevant, stated as fact It hasn't. The numbers don't support that position whatsoever. Revisiting statistics as true because they support this portion of the argument
But, I understand the same usual posters who want to back Wojo on every single god dang decision he makes simply refuse to believe he can be beyond making mistakes with regard to his playing time/personnel decisions. STRAWMAN ALERT STRAWMAN ALERT Ultimately, our record is a reflection of his decision making. Yet another "factual" opinion I don't believe it is any coincidence that we lost all 5 games starting with Xavier when Wojo limited JJJ to 0 minutes to a max of 17. Opinions based on correlation not causation but presented as fact Nor do I think it is a coincidence that when Wojo gave JJJ exactly 7 minutes 10 days prior against Seton Hall and we got blown off the floor at home, yet 10 days later when he plays him 35 minutes we win on the road (without our best player). A mild dose of paranoia mixed with wistful hope his opinion is correct
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Newsflash: Basketball is not a science, it is an art. Logic of the academia world doesn't apply. You cannot apply PURE logic to an art.
As I've said 100 times, just because a player comes into a game and misses his first two shots and has a turnover - it does NOT mean he is going to suck for the whole game.
You guys take such a narrow view - to think that JJJ or any other player - can only have a good game if they start the game playing well from the tip. That just isn't how it works. Period. Not that hard to understand. Do you really believe at this level with all the time these guys have played basketball, their skill level is so variable and volatile from game to game?? As if a guy a this level starts a game poorly, he is completely incapable of turning it around??
The 7 game sample size of games where JJJ played 25+ includes his "clunkers" of Ohio State and NJIT. A guy of course isn't always going to perform to his averages. Yet, it is far more likely you will get 13.5ppg, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 steals and 2.5 turnovers out of JJJ if you play him 25+.
Those numbers are combined from low major to high major competition. They are what they are. And it is ridiculous to think the Xavier benching somehow brought on improved performance from JJJ. It hasn't. The numbers don't support that position whatsoever.
But, I understand the same usual posters who want to back Wojo on every single god dang decision he makes simply refuse to believe he can be beyond making mistakes with regard to his playing time/personnel decisions. Ultimately, our record is a reflection of his decision making. I don't believe it is any coincidence that we lost all 5 games starting with Xavier when Wojo limited JJJ to 0 minutes to a max of 17. Nor do I think it is a coincidence that when Wojo gave JJJ exactly 7 minutes 10 days prior against Seton Hall and we got blown off the floor at home, yet 10 days later when he plays him 35 minutes we win on the road (without our best player).
I'll give you JJJ only getting 7 minutes vs. SH. Seems like with only 8 guys on the roster to shut someone down with less than double digit minutes is a bit premature. But there have been plenty of games this year where Wojo has stuck with him for 15+ minutes and the production just isn't there. That should be plenty of time to get into the flow of the game.
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Stop it 03eng. 'Connie.'
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I'm lifting my self-imposed Ners ban for this one.
As I've said 100 times, just because a player comes into a game and misses his first two shots and has a turnover - it does NOT mean he is going to suck for the whole game....You guys take such a narrow view - to think that JJJ or any other player - can only have a good game if they start the game playing well from the tip. That just isn't how it works. Period. Not that hard to understand...As if a guy a this level starts a game poorly, he is completely incapable of turning it around??
When has anyone made the argument that if a player begins the game poorly, he'll have a bad game? Seriously, when has ANYONE made that argument on these boards?
Do you really believe at this level with all the time these guys have played basketball, their skill level is so variable and volatile from game to game??
Steve Taylor vs GT: 32 min, 2 pts, 2 reb, 1 blk
Steve Taylor vs MSU (the next day): 33 min, 10 pts, 7 reb, 3 asts, 2 stls,
Steve Taylor vs Ten: 26 min, 4 pts, 2 reb, 1 ast, 1 blk
Steve Taylor vs StJ: 25 min, 13 pts, 9 reb
Steve Taylor vs Creighton: 18 min, 0 pts, 3 reb
Steve Taylor vs SHU: 18 min, 8 pts, 5 reb
In roughly the same number of minutes, shouldn't he have roughly the same production? Or is their some volatility to this art?
But, I understand the same usual posters who want to back Wojo on every single god dang decision he makes simply refuse to believe he can be beyond making mistakes with regard to his playing time/personnel decisions.
Once again, no one said this. However, I will say that there is a 100% chance that Wojo knows more about basketball and how to coach a D1 team than you or anyone else on this board.
I don't believe it is any coincidence that we lost all 5 games starting with Xavier when Wojo limited JJJ to 0 minutes to a max of 17. Nor do I think it is a coincidence that when Wojo gave JJJ exactly 7 minutes 10 days prior against Seton Hall and we got blown off the floor at home, yet 10 days later when he plays him 35 minutes we win on the road (without our best player).
Against SHU, Marquette nearly blew a 9-point lead in 90 seconds, scored 13 points less than their season average, shot 24% worse from 3 than their season average, gave up 5 more offensive rebounds than their season average, had 7 fewer assists than their season average, had nearly 2 more TOs than their season average but happened to play a team that missed 14 layups. A win is a win and I'll certainly take it, but let's not pretend like JJJ's presence sparked the team to a dominant performance.
JJJ had a good week of practice and stepped up to have an excellent game when the team needed him. He seems like a good kid and he has a lot of talent. I hope he continues to work hard and understands how that hard work translates into more PT and more production.
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LOL - A real gem. Basketball is an art. Deal with it. And if you really don't believe a guy can't start a game "poorly" and not improve and go on to have a good game - you aren't very bright.
You speak to that as "an opinion stated as fact with no evidence other than high school experience." I could give you 1,000s of basketball games where a guy misses his first two or three shots in a game and goes on to score 20+ for a game. So..guess what...it IS a fact.
You know what else is a fact? The benching JJJ got against Xavier hasn't lead to any improved performance. Yet you want to assert this is "opinion with no basis in anything relevant, stated as fact?"
Except the stats all point toward my conclusion as a fact. 6 games prior to benching of 25+ his numbers were solid. Just as they were against Seton Hall when once again Wojo took off the shackles.
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I could give you 1,000s of basketball games where a guy misses his first two or three shots in a game and goes on to score 20+ for a game.
Do it!
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I understand it must be incredibly frustrating to see JJJ perform well against Seton Hall for those who tried to disagree with my original post on this topic.
I understand many of the same posters who passionately disagree with me here, just as they did last year about Buzz's coaching, probably are tired of having our on court performance support my positions/arguments.
I understand people have gone to GREAT lengths to try to discredit the stats I provided in this original post - cherry picking as best they can to support their flawed position.
I understand many of these same people are the same who beat the drum of what an effective and solid and contributing player Derrick Wilson is to this team - just as they did last year - as did Buzz and now Wojo. Meanwhile, the losses rack up at the highest rate in 15 years - and the only constant of the last two seasons has been Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes. I am still curious about what Derrick is doing to "earn" all those minutes. You'd think at some point he'd hit the bench in a game where he's 0-6 from the field, 1-4 from the FT line and commits 4 turnovers might lead to some bench time no? But what happens instead?? He plays the whole game. LOL. And you think teammates don't get frustrated by the double standard that applies for the coaches favorite?!
I understand people are getting all excited about next year's recruiting class, but other than Henry Ellenson, it doesn't really matter if we signed 3 other Top 100 players as recruiting rankings don't matter.
I understand that it is beyond reason for coaches paid millions of dollars to make mistakes with regard to their decision making. Even though it just happened to Pete Carroll, Mike McCarthy. Bill Belicheck had Tom Brady riding the bench behind his trusty vet, Drew Bledsoe. Wojo benches a red hot Duane Wilson in the Georgetown game from the 7:50 mark to 3:35 mark of the game for no reason. We've imploded down the stretch in multiple games this year, taking the air out of the ball and playing a conservative brand of basketball - spearheaded of course by our ultra conservative PG.
Of course coaches make mistakes all the time, and I am among the many non-conspiracy theorists who have criticized Wojo for the mistakes I believe he has made in a mostly good (my opinion) rookie season as coach.
But you and TW claim that more than "mistakes" have been at the root of his insidious mistreatment of JJJ.
So, once again, Mr. Avoid The Question, what facts can you present to provide insight as to Wojo's motivation for cruelly shunning JJJ?
As for Belichick not letting Brady off the bench until Bledsoe got hurt, well, that strategy obviously turned out horribly for the Patriots in the long term. The mentally weak Brady never amounted to anything, and the Pats never sniffed a championship.
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I'm lifting my self-imposed Ners ban for this one.
When has anyone made the argument that if a player begins the game poorly, he'll have a bad game? Seriously, when has ANYONE made that argument on these boards?
Steve Taylor vs GT: 32 min, 2 pts, 2 reb, 1 blk
Steve Taylor vs MSU (the next day): 33 min, 10 pts, 7 reb, 3 asts, 2 stls,
Steve Taylor vs Ten: 26 min, 4 pts, 2 reb, 1 ast, 1 blk
Steve Taylor vs StJ: 25 min, 13 pts, 9 reb
Steve Taylor vs Creighton: 18 min, 0 pts, 3 reb
Steve Taylor vs SHU: 18 min, 8 pts, 5 reb
In roughly the same number of minutes, shouldn't he have roughly the same production? Or is their some volatility to this art?
Once again, no one said this. However, I will say that there is a 100% chance that Wojo knows more about basketball and how to coach a D1 team than you or anyone else on this board.
Against SHU, Marquette nearly blew a 9-point lead in 90 seconds, scored 13 points less than their season average, shot 24% worse from 3 than their season average, gave up 5 more offensive rebounds than their season average, had 7 fewer assists than their season average, had nearly 2 more TOs than their season average but happened to play a team that missed 14 layups. A win is a win and I'll certainly take it, but let's not pretend like JJJ's presence sparked the team to a dominant performance.
JJJ had a good week of practice and stepped up to have an excellent game when the team needed him. He seems like a good kid and he has a lot of talent. I hope he continues to work hard and understands how that hard work translates into more PT and more production.
Where have you been Merritt?? This whole debate on JJJ is the fact the opposition to my point are beyond FIRM in their belief that the only reason JJJ plays better when he gets 25+ are because he started by playing well. The argument is: When JJJ plays less than 25 he isn't playing well, therefore he isn't earning any more time.
And again, for the 101st time - Just because a guy comes into a game and misses his first few shots doesn't mean he's going to be bad for the whole game. The opposition to my point of view is suggesting JJJ doesn't "deserve or earn" more minutes because he starts a game poorly.
As for your Steve Taylor argument, it's a good one. However, I do believe that when you have radically inconsistent playing time, it leads to radical inconsistency in production. When you have no clear role, no consistent playing time, it is foolish to expect consistent production. And, as I said about JJJ - just because you give him 25+ does NOT mean he is going to never have a clunker of a game - it can happen to anyone. But, on the whole, on the balance, he will produce closer to his averages of 13ppg, 4, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5 if he plays 25+
It is for the above reason that Derrick and Jake drove me nuts. The had the perfect environment for production, yet still failed to produce. They got consistent playing time, always did, game after game after game - yet even with all of this consistency, they produced very little. They proved beyond a reasonable doubt what you would get from them. My frustration last year, and now again this year - is you have other guys who can take those minutes that show much more potential and overall ability, yet they aren't getting the opportunity to play 3, 4 games in a row max minutes - meanwhile the team continues to lose riding the veteran/upperclassmen.
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You speak to that as "an opinion stated as fact with no evidence other than high school experience." I could give you 1,000s of basketball games where a guy misses his first two or three shots in a game and goes on to score 20+ for a game. So..guess what...it IS a fact.
It's not fact, just because you can find some data that supports your opinion while ignoring other data that does not, doesn't make it fact.
I'm willing to bet if we did a statistical analysis, we would find that a person went on to have a good game as often as a bad when missing their first couple of shots....know what that means? IT IS STATISTICALLY IRRELEVANT AND THEREFORE NOT FACT. (see I can present theories as facts too, oh and Henry Sugar the Stat signal just went up ;D)
Also no one said that if you miss your first couple of shots you are going to have a bad game. People have said, if you make mental mistakes, you sit for a bit and then try and see if you don't make those mental mistakes again. So really I screwed up, that was a strawman mixed with opinion stated as fact...my bad :D
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Do it!
LOL - I've already wasted enough time debating with the usual idiots on this topic. Their point of view is so absurd it's beyond funny and ludicrous.
And I know, you know Merritt - that it is true: A guy can start a game poorly and go on to have a very good basketball game.
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LOL - I've already wasted enough time debating with the usual idiots on this topic. Their point of view is so absurd it's beyond funny and ludicrous.
And I know, you know Merritt - that it is true: A guy can start a game poorly and go on to have a very good basketball game.
And a guy can start a game poorly and go on to press matters even harder, resulting in even more turnovers and bad decisions.
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LOL - I've already wasted enough time debating with the usual idiots on this topic. Their point of view is so absurd it's beyond funny and ludicrous.
And I know, you know Merritt - that it is true: A guy can start a game poorly and go on to have a very good basketball game.
I agree.
You've wasted too much time on this.
Don't mention it ever again.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
One thing is clear, no one needs to be brilliant to have an opinion on basketball. As Charles Barkley has said, the game is not that complicated. Even I could learn it. On that note, let the opinions fly.
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It's not fact, just because you can find some data that supports your opinion while ignoring other data that does not, doesn't make it fact.
I'm willing to bet if we did a statistical analysis, we would find that a person went on to have a good game as often as a bad when missing their first couple of shots....know what that means? IT IS STATISTICALLY IRRELEVANT AND THEREFORE NOT FACT. (see I can present theories as facts too, oh and Henry Sugar the Stat signal just went up ;D)
Also no one said that if you miss your first couple of shots you are going to have a bad game. People have said, if you make mental mistakes, you sit for a bit and then try and see if you don't make those mental mistakes again. So really I screwed up, that was a strawman mixed with opinion stated as fact...my bad :D
What is a fact is there is a clear and statistically relevant pattern of production for JJJ when he plays more than 25+ minutes per game. What is NOT a fact is to suggest that just because a guy starts poorly, it does not mean he CANNOT or WILL NOT play well if still given big minutes.
What is also clear is posters had the opportunity to choose from Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE MU basketball career to see if they could find a 6 game set of games that could match the production of JJJ this season (in the ONLY games JJJ got 25+). So basically we had 32 games last year of Derrick playing 25+, and now another 23 this year - so 55 games to choose from - and BARELY could Derrick's fans put together 6 games out of those 55 that Derrick puts up similar numbers to JJJ.
I'd rather play JJJ 25-32 minutes per game and see what he can do, when I know approximately 49 times out of 55, Derrick Wilson isn't going to produce what JJJ does in 6 out 6 tries.
And we've been playing with 3 PGS on the floor all season. Carlino can play it. Duane can. At least last year those in the support Derrick court could make a legitimate case when they said: We don't have any other options. This year?? Please.
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Still no proof from Ners or TW as to Wojo's motivation for intentionally trying to torpedo JJJ's career ...
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The argument is: When JJJ plays less than 25 he isn't playing well, therefore he isn't earning any more time.
And again, for the 101st time - Just because a guy comes into a game and misses his first few shots doesn't mean he's going to be bad for the whole game. The opposition to my point of view is suggesting JJJ doesn't "deserve or earn" more minutes because he starts a game poorly.
The argument from you has mainly been JjJ is a very highly rated high school player who is entitled to lots of playing tie regardless of how he practices, regardless of his attitude and regardless of how good he is in a game (defense included). Your view throughout this thread is he has earned or deserves 25+ minutes because he's JaJuan F*cking Johnson dammit! It's the same argument you had that Deonte should play more minutes. If the great and powerful Ners says someone should play, he should play, regardless of the effort, attitude or results.
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Of course coaches make mistakes all the time, and I am among the many non-conspiracy theorists who have criticized Wojo for the mistakes I believe he has made in a mostly good (my opinion) rookie season as coach.
But you and TW claim that more than "mistakes" have been at the root of his insidious mistreatment of JJJ.
So, once again, Mr. Avoid The Question, what facts can you present to provide insight as to Wojo's motivation for cruelly shunning JJJ?
As for Belichick not letting Brady off the bench until Bledsoe got hurt, well, that strategy obviously turned out horribly for the Patriots in the long term. The mentally weak Brady never amounted to anything, and the Pats never sniffed a championship.
I've never said Wojo was "cruelly" shunning JJJ. Said he was playing Russian Roulette, and coaching him with a short leash. Obviously it's Wojo's prerogative to coach JJJ how he wants. My point was given Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson, and given that JJJ was ready to bail on MU and Buzz last season after the way things ended, and given that we have 3 open scholarships already for next year, along with a very shaky filled one with Nick N - to potentially lose JJJ's buy in/respect for Wojo was Russian Roulette.
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I've never said Wojo was "cruelly" shunning JJJ. Said he was playing Russian Roulette, and coaching him with a short leash. Obviously it's Wojo's prerogative to coach JJJ how he wants. My point was given Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson, and given that JJJ was ready to bail on MU and Buzz last season after the way things ended, and given that we have 3 open scholarships already for next year, along with a very shaky filled one with Nick N - to potentially lose JJJ's buy in/respect for Wojo was Russian Roulette.
And we still haven't heard why you think JjJ is such a wet hairy cat that he'd take Wojo's benching as something he should run home to his momma about instead of rising to the occasion.
Nor have we heard anything out of TW other than conjecture but that's another story.
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I've never said Wojo was "cruelly" shunning JJJ. Said he was playing Russian Roulette, and coaching him with a short leash. Obviously it's Wojo's prerogative to coach JJJ how he wants. My point was given Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson, and given that JJJ was ready to bail on MU and Buzz last season after the way things ended, and given that we have 3 open scholarships already for next year, along with a very shaky filled one with Nick N - to potentially lose JJJ's buy in/respect for Wojo was Russian Roulette.
Thanks for the answer.
I'm far too lazy to re-read each of your 473 posts on the subject here, so I will take your word for it. Maybe it was only TW who suggested something more sinister, though you two do seem to operate in lockstep.
Having said that, changing one's coaching philosophy and instincts because doing so might offend a player that a coach seriously believes needs discipline ... that definitely is playing Russian Roulette.
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The argument from you has mainly been JjJ is a very highly rated high school player who is entitled to lots of playing tie regardless of how he practices, regardless of his attitude and regardless of how good he is in a game (defense included). Your view throughout this thread is he has earned or deserves 25+ minutes because he's JaJuan F*cking Johnson dammit! It's the same argument you had that Deonte should play more minutes. If the great and powerful Ners says someone should play, he should play, regardless of the effort, attitude or results.
Are you kidding me? My point all along has been RESULTS oriented. Just as it was with Burton. People dogged Deonte this year as being so bad, yet he had these skins on the wall: Big East All Freshman Tea, (proved he could play well at high major level). Led team in FG%, 3pt shooting percentage and 2nd on team in FT% when he left.
My point has been I don't need a guy to be a floor slapping, maniac out there to warrant him playing - just because he looks uber intense and has all kinds of hyperactivity without any production. I'd rather play guys who are playmakers and produce than those who "play within themselves," "know their role," "know their defensive assignments" (meanwhile NOBODY here knows that the players individual defensive assignments are or what the team defense concepts are.) Basically, any cliche that can be offered up to try to justify a guy playing who DOESN'T PRODUCE. But, "has a good attitude and practices hard."
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And we still haven't heard why you think JjJ is such a wet hairy cat that he'd take Wojo's benching as something he should run home to his momma about instead of rising to the occasion.
Nor have we heard anything out of TW other than conjecture but that's another story.
Based on the fact he was ready to bolt at the end of last season after how things went down with Buzz. Based on the fact he could look to his teammates having similar struggles at times, yet all generally getting longer leashes to play through their mistakes. Based on riding the bench 25+ minutes per game on a losing team. Based on knowing generally when I get good playing time, I produce fairly well relative to the rest of the guys on this particular team. Based on the fact that if you start to believe your coach/leader doesn't believe in your talents and can't use them appropriately - you can find another coach/leader that you feel will.
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I'm cured.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP FEEDING THE BRAIN DAMAGED
(in my best Chris Farley voice)
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It is for the above reason that Derrick and Jake drove me nuts. The had the perfect environment for production, yet still failed to produce. They got consistent playing time, always did, game after game after game - yet even with all of this consistency, they produced very little. They proved beyond a reasonable doubt what you would get from them. My frustration last year, and now again this year - is you have other guys who can take those minutes that show much more potential and overall ability, yet they aren't getting the opportunity to play 3, 4 games in a row max minutes - meanwhile the team continues to lose riding the veteran/upperclassmen.
Great choice of words for me to make my point. True, both last year's team and this year's team had players who could potentially TAKE more minutes...but they didn't and they weren't going to simply GET minutes. Any coach worth his salt will tell you that PT is earned, not given.
Self-ban back on!
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Ners, do you find it at all hypocritical that you make a blanket assertion that basketball is not a "science" but an "art" and then defend your position by using statistics? And statistics that conform to the limited dialogue that you repeatedly try to convince people is accurate?
In its simplest form this is your argument:
If JjJ plays well its because he is a phenomenal player. The statistics back that up. Statistics don't lie. They are, after all, data.
If JjJ plays poorly it's Wojo fault. Despite there being no statistics to back that up it doesn't matter because basketball is an "art" not a "science"
If the teams wins it's because JjJ plays. The statistics back that up. Statistics don't lie. They are, after all, data.
If the team loses it's because Derrick is our point guard. Despite there being no statistics to back that up it doesn't matter because basketball is an "art" and not a "science"
Do you really wonder why people take issue with your opininions which you constantly state as fact?
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Great choice of words for me to make my point. True, both last year's team and this year's team had players who could potentially TAKE more minutes...but they didn't and they weren't going to simply GET minutes. Any coach worth his salt will tell you that PT is earned, not given.
Self-ban back on!
Do you feel like doper who just relapsed? Perhaps we could institute of a 12 step program to assist folks.
1. We admitted we were powerless over Ners postings—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the Mods.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to the Mods, to ourselves, our fellow Scoop posters the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have the Mods remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly ask to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all posters we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such posters wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with MUSCOOP, praying only for knowledge.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to our fellow posters who respond to Ners, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
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Based on the fact he was ready to bolt at the end of last season after how things went down with Buzz. Based on the fact he could look to his teammates having similar struggles at times, yet all generally getting longer leashes to play through their mistakes. Based on riding the bench 25+ minutes per game on a losing team. Based on knowing generally when I get good playing time, I produce fairly well relative to the rest of the guys on this particular team. Based on the fact that if you start to believe your coach/leader doesn't believe in your talents and can't use them appropriately - you can find another coach/leader that you feel will.
So the answer is you have no facts to base your thoughts on, only conjecture. Buzz was last year and is not Wojo. "Knowing generally" is not factual as it pertains to the argument. You stated nothing factually that JjJ believes his coach/leader doesn't believe in his talents and can't use them appropriately.
I think you're projecting what you probably did when you didn't play as much as you wanted to. You cried and went home. I, and a lot of other Scoopers, think JjJ has more stones than you.
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What is a fact is there is a clear and statistically relevant pattern of production for JJJ when he plays more than 25+ minutes per game. What is NOT a fact is to suggest that just because a guy starts poorly, it does not mean he CANNOT or WILL NOT play well if still given big minutes.
What is also clear is posters had the opportunity to choose from Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE MU basketball career to see if they could find a 6 game set of games that could match the production of JJJ this season (in the ONLY games JJJ got 25+). So basically we had 32 games last year of Derrick playing 25+, and now another 23 this year - so 55 games to choose from - and BARELY could Derrick's fans put together 6 games out of those 55 that Derrick puts up similar numbers to JJJ.
I'd rather play JJJ 25-32 minutes per game and see what he can do, when I know approximately 49 times out of 55, Derrick Wilson isn't going to produce what JJJ does in 6 out 6 tries.
And we've been playing with 3 PGS on the floor all season. Carlino can play it. Duane can. At least last year those in the support Derrick court could make a legitimate case when they said: We don't have any other options. This year?? Please.
It is also a fact with clear and statistically relevant data that JJJ plays well in games after he is benched. We should bench him every other or every 3rd game to make sure this pattern continues. It's supported by statistics.
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New approach:
Ners, EVERYBODY on this forum will admit that Wojo isn't infallible and will be wrong from time to time if you admit that there is a chance that you are actually wrong about JJJ.
Then we can all move on, right?
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I understand it must be incredibly frustrating to see JJJ perform well against Seton Hall for those who tried to disagree with my original post on this topic.
Nope, I loved it. I am a fan of the team, and every single player on the team. Watching JjJ string together two strong games in a row against top competition for the first time in his career has been one of the high points of the season for me. You are the only poster (besides people who do nothing but troll) who I have ever seen post that you actively cheer against one of our players. Just because you curse and spit every time Derrick does well, does not mean we do the same for JjJ.
I don't give a flying f*ck about being right. I just want to see the team win. I don't think you could say the same.
I understand many of the same posters who passionately disagree with me here, just as they did last year about Buzz's coaching, probably are tired of having our on court performance support my positions/arguments.
I don't feel this is an accurate statement at all. Our argument is that we aren't very good this season. Our on the court performance reflects that. Derrick is a big part of that. You and TW are the only two who think this team would be tournament worthy if only JjJ got all of Derrick's minutes (and Carlino's in TW's case).
I understand people have gone to GREAT lengths to try to discredit the stats I provided in this original post - cherry picking as best they can to support their flawed position.
There has been some cherry picking on both sides. That is common amongst fans. I don't think I would classify WarriorNYC's stats about JjJ's first half performances as cherry picking. I don't think I would classify my stats about JjJ's performance against top 100 opponents as cherry picking. I also don't think the posters who hold that JjJ gets 25 minutes because of solid play rather than JjJ has solid play because he gets 25 minutes are cherry picking. I don' think the posters who point out that 5/7 of JjJ's 25+ minute games were against sub 100 opponents, most of them sub 150, are cherry picking. I don't think Bama's value add is cherry picking. I don't think pointing out the JjJ's usage/efficiency stats show him to be a liability on the court is cherry picking.
The fact that you are ignoring all of these shows that you are doing a hefty amount of cherry picking yourself.
I understand many of these same people are the same who beat the drum of what an effective and solid and contributing player Derrick Wilson is to this team - just as they did last year - as did Buzz and now Wojo. Meanwhile, the losses rack up at the highest rate in 15 years - and the only constant of the last two seasons has been Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes. I am still curious about what Derrick is doing to "earn" all those minutes. You'd think at some point he'd hit the bench in a game where he's 0-6 from the field, 1-4 from the FT line and commits 4 turnovers might lead to some bench time no? But what happens instead?? He plays the whole game. LOL. And you think teammates don't get frustrated by the double standard that applies for the coaches favorite?!
We all recognize Derrick as a liablity. No one is denying that. We just don't agree with you that all his minutes should go to JjJ. I would take Derrick's production over JjJ's production every day of the week. I don't understand why Duane doesn't get some run at the 1. That is a coaching decision I disagree with. I disagree but still have enough respect for Wojo to trust his judgement over my own. Derrick earns his playing time, Bama's stats prove that. I think on a better team he would earn less, but alas we are stuck with the team we have.
You call it a double standard. You do understand that starters get longer leashes than bench players right? That is standard practice for every college basketball team at every level. Derrick has earned Wojo's trust to play through mistakes. JjJ has not. Starters get to play through mistakes, bench players don't, at least not in the same way. You say its unfair but its not. You can't let every player play through mistakes. Just like you can't pull a starter every time he makes a mistake. You know this, so the real issue is that you don't like that Derrick has earned this privilege and JjJ has not.
I understand people are getting all excited about next year's recruiting class, but other than Henry Ellenson, it doesn't really matter if we signed 3 other Top 100 players as recruiting rankings don't matter.
Recruiting rankings matter. Performance on the court matters more. I am excited about next year's class because the only thing I have to judge them on is their rankings out of high school. I was not excited about this team because besides Duane and Sandy, I could judge them all on their performance from last season. And guess what? That performance wasn't very good.
Do you think Big East coaches prepare to play against us by telling their players "Look out for Jajuan Johnson, he was a top 35 recruit in the 2013 class?" No! They prepare by saying "Jajuan Johnson is an energy guy off the bench who is great in transition. But he is turnover prone, overly aggressive on defense, and couldn't hit the ocean if he fell out of the boat."
I understand that it is beyond reason for coaches paid millions of dollars to make mistakes with regard to their decision making. Even though it just happened to Pete Carroll, Mike McCarthy. Bill Belicheck had Tom Brady riding the bench behind his trusty vet, Drew Bledsoe. Wojo benches a red hot Duane Wilson in the Georgetown game from the 7:50 mark to 3:35 mark of the game for no reason. We've imploded down the stretch in multiple games this year, taking the air out of the ball and playing a conservative brand of basketball - spearheaded of course by our ultra conservative PG.
I think coaches make play calling mistakes all of the time. Wojo has made many of these. I also think these are only mistakes in hindsight. What if McCarthy went for it twice and the players couldn't pound it in? People would be calling that a mistake. What if Pete Carroll decided to run even though everyone in the nation expected it? Maybe Lynch would have gotten in, maybe he would have been stopped behind the line. What if Russell Wilson hadn't lead the reciever too much? Pete Carroll is a genius for passing when everyone thought he was going to run. Brad Stevens got praised for an end of game play he drew up when he was at Butler where Barlow, a former walk on, made the game winning bucket. Had Barlow missed, he's an idiot for trusting a former walk on. Since Barlow made it, he's a genius for doing the unexpected.
I think playing time mistakes are very few and far between. I'm sure they happen but coaches get these right 99% of the time. They have so much data and spend so much time with these kids that it is easy to know the proper depth chart. Now maybe individual in game substitution mistakes get made at a frequent rate. But setting the depth chart is easy for a coach.
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New approach:
Ners, EVERYBODY on this forum will admit that Wojo isn't infallible and will be wrong from time to time if you admit that there is a chance that you are actually wrong about JJJ.
Then we can all move on, right?
Sorry. I'm not wrong on JJJ. I'm not wrong on Derrick. I wasn't wrong on Buzz last season. And I'm not wrong on Wojo this season - he's made plenty of mistakes, yet gets a pass as a rookie head coach. I'll be much more bullish on Wojo as a coach if he starts to course correct starting tonight against Xavier. Or will he pull a Buzz and grind us right down to the stretch with 35+ minutes of Derrick Wilson and continued losses mounting, while relegating arguably our most talented player to the bench for 25+ minutes per game?
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Sorry. I'm not wrong on JJJ. I'm not wrong on Derrick. I wasn't wrong on Buzz last season. And I'm not wrong on Wojo this season - he's made plenty of mistakes, yet gets a pass as a rookie head coach. I'll be much more bullish on Wojo as a coach if he starts to course correct starting tonight against Xavier. Or will he pull a Buzz and grind us right down to the stretch with 35+ minutes of Derrick Wilson and continued losses mounting, while relegating arguably our most talented player to the bench for 25+ minutes per game?
(http://gifsb.in/eddie-izzard/fingers-in-ears.gif)
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Based on all those quotes from Ners about what he "understands", I don't think he knows what that word means....
Sorry. I'm not wrong on JJJ. I'm not wrong on Derrick. I wasn't wrong on Buzz last season. And I'm not wrong on Wojo this season - he's made plenty of mistakes, yet gets a pass as a rookie head coach. I'll be much more bullish on Wojo as a coach if he starts to course correct starting tonight against Xavier. Or will he pull a Buzz and grind us right down to the stretch with 35+ minutes of Derrick Wilson and continued losses mounting, while relegating arguably our most talented player to the bench for 25+ minutes per game?
Ok Ners. You got us. We're wrong. Buzz was wrong. His entire staff was wrong. Wojo is wrong. His entire staff is wrong. You're right. In Ners we trust.
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I've never said Wojo was "cruelly" shunning JJJ. Said he was playing Russian Roulette, and coaching him with a short leash. Obviously it's Wojo's prerogative to coach JJJ how he wants. My point was given Wojo already lost Burton and Dawson, and given that JJJ was ready to bail on MU and Buzz last season after the way things ended, and given that we have 3 open scholarships already for next year, along with a very shaky filled one with Nick N - to potentially lose JJJ's buy in/respect for Wojo was Russian Roulette.
This is an argument I understand. I agree with the presentation but not the conclusion. It is true, if a high rated player doesn't get the minutes he thinks he deserves, there is a risk he will decide to transfer. I absolutely agree. What I don't agree with is letting players decide how many minutes they deserve. The moment you do that, is the moment you lose the team. I am willing to lose a player who is willing to pull the "give me more minutes or I transfer" card.
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Sorry. I'm not wrong on JJJ. I'm not wrong on Derrick. I wasn't wrong on Buzz last season. And I'm not wrong on Wojo this season - he's made plenty of mistakes, yet gets a pass as a rookie head coach. I'll be much more bullish on Wojo as a coach if he starts to course correct starting tonight against Xavier. Or will he pull a Buzz and grind us right down to the stretch with 35+ minutes of Derrick Wilson and continued losses mounting, while relegating arguably our most talented player to the bench for 25+ minutes per game?
Sorry, you are wrong. I played in high school and as a senior coached a team of sophomores and juniors to a park district championship so I clearly know better than you. Please do not try to argue as I have BOTH coaching and playing experience.
LOL - I've already wasted enough time debating with the usual idiots on this topic. Their point of view is so absurd it's beyond funny and ludicrous.
And I know, you know Merritt - that it is true: A guy can start a game poorly and go on to have a very good basketball game.
I'm curious. Do you actually LOL when you type 'LOL'? Just looking to get a response from you in this thread that actually makes sense. Much appreciated!
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Nope, I loved it. I am a fan of the team, and every single player on the team. Watching JjJ string together two strong games in a row against top competition for the first time in his career has been one of the high points of the season for me. You are the only poster (besides people who do nothing but troll) who I have ever seen post that you actively cheer against one of our players. Just because you curse and spit every time Derrick does well, does not mean we do the same for JjJ.
I don't give a flying f*ck about being right. I just want to see the team win. I don't think you could say the same.
I don't feel this is an accurate statement at all. Our argument is that we aren't very good this season. Our on the court performance reflects that. Derrick is a big part of that. You and TW are the only two who think this team would be tournament worthy if only JjJ got all of Derrick's minutes (and Carlino's in TW's case).
There has been some cherry picking on both sides. That is common amongst fans. I don't think I would classify WarriorNYC's stats about JjJ's first half performances as cherry picking. I don't think I would classify my stats about JjJ's performance against top 100 opponents as cherry picking. I also don't think the posters who hold that JjJ gets 25 minutes because of solid play rather than JjJ has solid play because he gets 25 minutes are cherry picking. I don' think the posters who point out that 5/7 of JjJ's 25+ minute games were against sub 100 opponents, most of them sub 150, are cherry picking. I don't think Bama's value add is cherry picking. I don't think pointing out the JjJ's usage/efficiency stats show him to be a liability on the court is cherry picking.
The fact that you are ignoring all of these shows that you are doing a hefty amount of cherry picking yourself.
We all recognize Derrick as a liablity. No one is denying that. We just don't agree with you that all his minutes should go to JjJ. I would take Derrick's production over JjJ's production every day of the week. I don't understand why Duane doesn't get some run at the 1. That is a coaching decision I disagree with. I disagree but still have enough respect for Wojo to trust his judgement over my own. Derrick earns his playing time, Bama's stats prove that. I think on a better team he would earn less, but alas we are stuck with the team we have.
You call it a double standard. You do understand that starters get longer leashes than bench players right? That is standard practice for every college basketball team at every level. Derrick has earned Wojo's trust to play through mistakes. JjJ has not. Starters get to play through mistakes, bench players don't, at least not in the same way. You say its unfair but its not. You can't let every player play through mistakes. Just like you can't pull a starter every time he makes a mistake. You know this, so the real issue is that you don't like that Derrick has earned this privilege and JjJ has not.
Recruiting rankings matter. Performance on the court matters more. I am excited about next year's class because the only thing I have to judge them on is their rankings out of high school. I was not excited about this team because besides Duane and Sandy, I could judge them all on their performance from last season. And guess what? That performance wasn't very good.
Do you think Big East coaches prepare to play against us by telling their players "Look out for Jajuan Johnson, he was a top 35 recruit in the 2013 class?" No! They prepare by saying "Jajuan Johnson is an energy guy off the bench who is great in transition. But he is turnover prone, overly aggressive on defense, and couldn't hit the ocean if he fell out of the boat."
I think coaches make play calling mistakes all of the time. Wojo has made many of these. I also think these are only mistakes in hindsight. What if McCarthy went for it twice and the players couldn't pound it in? People would be calling that a mistake. What if Pete Carroll decided to run even though everyone in the nation expected it? Maybe Lynch would have gotten in, maybe he would have been stopped behind the line. What if Russell Wilson hadn't lead the reciever too much? Pete Carroll is a genius for passing when everyone thought he was going to run. Brad Stevens got praised for an end of game play he drew up when he was at Butler where Barlow, a former walk on, made the game winning bucket. Had Barlow missed, he's an idiot for trusting a former walk on. Since Barlow made it, he's a genius for doing the unexpected.
I think playing time mistakes are very few and far between. I'm sure they happen but coaches get these right 99% of the time. They have so much data and spend so much time with these kids that it is easy to know the proper depth chart. Now maybe individual in game substitution mistakes get made at a frequent rate. But setting the depth chart is easy for a coach.
On bolded:
Yes, I want to see the team win. Period. Was far happier after Seton Hall than the last 5 games. Didn't even care Derrick was once again a total liability in that game - as Wojo's hands were legitimately tied to an extent, that said, he still didn't need to play him 40. But, go back to the game thread - I didn't hate on Derrick at all during the game. It's because I CARE about winning that I want Derrick's minutes reduced. He's been given all the chance in the world to show he's capable of leading a team, and playing at this level - and he simply isn't good enough. He's doing his best, but it simply isn't good enough. Not his fault. It's on Wojo to take him off the floor.
As for NYC's post. You'll note stats somehow weren't available for JJJ's clunker against Ohio State, which would have helped bring his numbers down.
You invented this criteria now of: He's played 2 games well against Top 100 teams for the first time. Newsflash - JJJ hasn't even played in back to back games all year against Top 100 teams 25+ minutes. He doesn't make the schedule. Hell he's had only 2, 2 game stints where he did play back to back 25+ minutes: TN Martin and OSU. And then North Dakota State and MOrgan State. Had his highest O-Rating of the year against Tennessee and only got 15 minutes - so what does that mean? Wojo didn't play him more minutes just because he was playing well. LOL.
As for my cherry picking - I'm not trying to parse the data into all kinds of different subsets - Teams Top 100, games against teams Top 100 back to back - you guys are the ones that HAVE to parse the data into all kinds of subsets to try to discredit the reality and truth of JJJ getting 25+ minutes per game - he performs well. Regardless of if it is against Morgan State, or ASU, Providence, or Seton Hall.
As for Bama's stats - Pomeroy's stats also suggest Derrick Wilson is a Limited Role Player, yet oddly enough he plays the highest percentage of minutes on this team at 78.4%. How can you be a limited role player when you play max minutes?! Incongruent. How is a team going to perform well when it leading minute getter doesn't produce?
***And most indicting of you and your bias: "I'll take Derrick Wilson's production over JJJ's every day of the week." ****
Wow. Just wow. You give JJJ 32+ minutes every game this season and his production would absolutely and totally blow Derrick Wilson's production out of the water. I'm not sure a dumber thing has been said on Scoop than to suggest Derrick Wilson is a more productive player than JJJ.
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Sorry, you are wrong. I played in high school and as a senior coached a team of sophomores and juniors to a park district championship so I clearly know better than you. Please do not try to argue as I have BOTH coaching and playing experience.
I'm curious. Do you actually LOL when you type 'LOL'? Just looking to get a response from you in this thread that actually makes sense. Much appreciated!
I always LOL when I read your take Blue Man. They are absolutely laugh out loud funny (and ignorant.)
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Sorry. I'm not wrong on JJJ. I'm not wrong on Derrick. I wasn't wrong on Buzz last season. And I'm not wrong on Wojo this season - he's made plenty of mistakes, yet gets a pass as a rookie head coach. I'll be much more bullish on Wojo as a coach if he starts to course correct starting tonight against Xavier. Or will he pull a Buzz and grind us right down to the stretch with 35+ minutes of Derrick Wilson and continued losses mounting, while relegating arguably our most talented player to the bench for 25+ minutes per game?
Well, here's the logic:
You've repeated your credentials over and over again to build your credibility. Fine. You know more about basketball than I do.
You've repeated that coaches can be wrong from time to time (even good coaches). Fine. Not every coach gets it right.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that Wojo (a guy with way more credentials than anybody, including you) might be right, and you might be wrong (even Bill Belicheck didn't start Tom Brady in week 1).
I can appreciate that you have a specific viewpoint and opinion, but your inability to recognize that you might be wrong is maddening. You won't even allow for that possibility?
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As for NYC's post. You'll note stats somehow weren't available for JJJ's clunker against Ohio State, which would have helped bring his numbers down.
Yep, as the link provided here shows, those stats are somehow not available
http://espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588333
And I would probably attribute Wojo sticking with him that whole game more to Wojo's second game head coaching ever.
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I'm not sure a dumber thing has been said on Scoop than to suggest Derrick Wilson is a more productive player than JJJ.
Look, I'm sure Wojo wants the glory and spotlight for JJJ's nice performance Saturday.
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I can appreciate that you have a specific viewpoint and opinion, but your inability to recognize that you might be wrong is maddening. You won't even allow for that possibility?
I realized Ners had serious pathology when I recognized his inability to entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, he might be the one who is wrong here. He keeps telling us that coaches make mistakes - and of course they do - but his mind can't fathom the possibility that he might be the one making the mistake about Derrick.
Reminds me of FreeportWarrior's great post about maturity.
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Sorry. I'm not wrong on JJJ. I'm not wrong on Derrick. I wasn't wrong on Buzz last season. And I'm not wrong on Wojo this season - he's made plenty of mistakes, yet gets a pass as a rookie head coach. I'll be much more bullish on Wojo as a coach if he starts to course correct starting tonight against Xavier. Or will he pull a Buzz and grind us right down to the stretch with 35+ minutes of Derrick Wilson and continued losses mounting, while relegating arguably our most talented player to the bench for 25+ minutes per game?
This is where you always shoot yourself in the foot. No one has any issues with your opinions. You think Derrick is a terrible player. Fine. You think John Dawson would have saved our season last year. Fine. You think JjJ needs to be allowed to play through mistakes. Fine. You think there is enough talent on this team to make the tournament. Fine. Those are all fine opinions. I disagree, as do many others, but that's fine. Fans disagree. That's why these sites exist.
But when you sit there and say "I am not wrong" "these are facts. PERIOD." "You are all idiots with ludicrous ideas" "Buzz is wrong" "Wojo is wrong", how can you expect anyone to take you seriously? You can think to yourself these things, but do you really expect us to listen to your ideas when you declare that a vast majority of this board is made up of idiots? That both Buzz and Wojo are idiots? You're not going to convince anyone of anything with that approach.
Just look around you. Last season you had a solid group of people who shared your ideas and backed you up. You have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they have all abandoned you. TW is the only one left. Well, except for the Badger trolls who occasionally come in. To quote Ted Moseby, "If you can't spot the crazy person on the bus, it's you." I'll add an addendum to it "If you can't spot the crazy person on the bus OR you think you are on a bus full of crazy people, it's you."
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I always LOL when I read your take Blue Man. They are absolutely laugh out loud funny (and ignorant.)
Ners, if ignorance is bliss you must be the happiest f**king guy in the world.
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Ners, if ignorance is bliss you must be the happiest f**king guy in the world.
That was well played Vander Blue Man. Nice work. Though I stand by my statement that I do LOL every time I read your ludicrous opinions on the game of basketball. If in your delusional world you feel Derrick Wilson can lead a team to victory, you must live in one fantasy land of a world.
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Ners, if ignorance is bliss you must be the happiest f**king guy in the world.
Probably true with one exception. It has to be frustrating as he!! when there's some hot blonde in front of him at hot yoga, and all he can see on her butt is Derrick's face.
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Can we all just take step back and agree that the username-avatar combo of Vander Blue Man Group and a blue Tobias Funke is about as good as it gets?
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Can we all just take step back and agree that the username-avatar combo of Vander Blue Man Group and a blue Tobias Funke is about as good as it gets?
Good call.
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That was well played Vander Blue Man. Nice work. Though I stand by my statement that I do LOL every time I read your ludicrous opinions on the game of basketball. If in your delusional world you feel Derrick Wilson can lead a team to victory, you must live in one fantasy land of a world.
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else but I would love to see where I ever said Derrick Wilson can regularly lead a team to victory or that I think he is an excellent player. To save you the time - I have not. In fact, earlier in this Godforsaken thread I stated that Derrick would be a solid backup PG on a good team. If that to you equates to "Derrick Wilson can lead a team to victory" you might have some comprehension issues.
You see I can disagree with your take on JJJ without even bringing Derrick into the equation. Unfortunately, you are not able to do so. You are obsessed, it seems.
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Can we all just take step back and agree that the username-avatar combo of Vander Blue Man Group and a blue Tobias Funke is about as good as it gets?
I can agree with that one, and thank you.
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Perhaps Ners could use a session or two with Tobias. He is, after all, both an analyst and therapist. Ners, I've included his business card below if you'd like to reach out for help:
(http://i.imgur.com/fFjYp.jpg)
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Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else but I would love to see where I ever said Derrick Wilson can regularly lead a team to victory or that I think he is an excellent player. To save you the time - I have not. In fact, earlier in this Godforsaken thread I stated that Derrick would be a solid backup PG on a good team. If that to you equates to "Derrick Wilson can lead a team to victory" you might have some comprehension issues.
You see I can disagree with your take on JJJ without even bringing Derrick into the equation. Unfortunately, you are not able to do so. You are obsessed, it seems.
My bad Blue Man. Thread has been all over. Agree to disagree on JJJ. Came completely off the rails when TAMU said he'd take Derrick Wilson's production every day of the week over JJJ.
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So this thread only came completely off the rails about an hour ago?
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My bad Blue Man. Thread has been all over. Agree to disagree on JJJ. Came completely off the rails when TAMU said he'd take Derrick Wilson's production every day of the week over JJJ.
That's cool - I'm sure I'm coming off as more of a d*ck than I intend. Agree to strenuously disagree.
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This is where you always shoot yourself in the foot. No one has any issues with your opinions.
Wanna bet?
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You invented this criteria now of: He's played 2 games well against Top 100 teams for the first time. Newsflash - JJJ hasn't even played in back to back games all year against Top 100 teams 25+ minutes. He doesn't make the schedule. Hell he's had only 2, 2 game stints where he did play back to back 25+ minutes: TN Martin and OSU. And then North Dakota State and MOrgan State. Had his highest O-Rating of the year against Tennessee and only got 15 minutes - so what does that mean? Wojo didn't play him more minutes just because he was playing well. LOL.
As for my cherry picking - I'm not trying to parse the data into all kinds of different subsets - Teams Top 100, games against teams Top 100 back to back - you guys are the ones that HAVE to parse the data into all kinds of subsets to try to discredit the reality and truth of JJJ getting 25+ minutes per game - he performs well. Regardless of if it is against Morgan State, or ASU, Providence, or Seton Hall.
As for Bama's stats - Pomeroy's stats also suggest Derrick Wilson is a Limited Role Player, yet oddly enough he plays the highest percentage of minutes on this team at 78.4%. How can you be a limited role player when you play max minutes?! Incongruent. How is a team going to perform well when it leading minute getter doesn't produce?
***And most indicting of you and your bias: "I'll take Derrick Wilson's production over JJJ's every day of the week." ****
Wow. Just wow. You give JJJ 32+ minutes every game this season and his production would absolutely and totally blow Derrick Wilson's production out of the water. I'm not sure a dumber thing has been said on Scoop than to suggest Derrick Wilson is a more productive player than JJJ.
Ners,
You do understand that by you narrowing it down to games of 25+minutes or more that you are "trying to parse data into all sorts of subsets" right? Why not extend the range to 22 minutes so his clunker against powerhouse Alabama A&M is included? Why not extend it to 20 minutes so his average game against MSU and his clunker against Georgetown is included? Hell, last season you told us that a player needed 10 minutes to get in a grove. Why not extend the range to there?
I narrowed it to top 100 teams because that seems like a reasonable line for determining "top competition." JjJ has consistently devoured cupcakes and done poorly against top competition. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that fact is proof of your bias. I brought up NOVA and HALL being JjJ's first back to back solid outings against top competition because its true. You say its because he's unfairly benched. I say its because he hasn't performed well enough to stay off the bench. But now, for the first time, he did get 2 solid runs of playing time. Isn't that something to be celebrated?
You've brought up the Tennessee game before. Honestly, I don't remember what JjJ was like in that game (Though I do think it's funny that you are using O-rating as a justification even though you spent half of this thread tearing it apart). But what I do remember is that we won that game and that it was our third best win of the year. Is it possible that even though JjJ was playing really well, that others on the team were still playing better?
You've also brought up Pomeroy's limited role player label for Derrick before. As I understand it, that means he is highly efficient and low usage. On a good team, he would be a top bench player or worst starter. What does it say about JjJ (I don't have a KP subscription)? Because he is low efficency but high usage. That means that on a good team, he would be a benchwarmer. Limited role player is better than whatever JjJ is.
You seem to not understand that as minutes go up, production rate decreases, not the other way around. That is baksetball stats 101. JjJ would score more points and steal more. Derrick would get more boards, have more assists, turn the ball over WAY less, shoot at a higher FG% and 3P%. And we can argue all day about whether or not Derrick's defense is elite or not but I think even you would agree that he is a better defender than JjJ. He would also do those little things that you love to criticize much better. You conveniently sidestepped this point, but there is a reason why Derrick has the second highest value add and JjJ has the second lowest.
Also, even though this thread title is about JjJ, it's really about Derrick isn't it? I don't think you actually give a rat's arse about JjJ's playing time, I think what you really care about is taking playing time away from Derrick. JjJ just happens to be the only guy on the bench who could feasibly take Derrick's minutes.
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This thread is basically nothing but hot takes to outdo the previous hot take.
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That's cool - I'm sure I'm coming off as more of a d*ck than I intend. Agree to strenuously disagree.
Reminds me of the first bench trial I had 27 years or so ago when I first became a lawyer. I stood up and said, I strenuously object! The other lawyer just looked at me and laughed....
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This thread is basically nothing but hot takes to outdo the previous hot take.
Says the one with the Shark avatar.... ;)
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Reminds me of the first bench trial I had 27 years or so ago when I first became a lawyer. I stood up and said, I strenuously object! The other lawyer just looked at me and laughed....
Didn't someone do that in "A Few Good Men?"
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Well, here's the logic:
You've repeated your credentials over and over again to build your credibility. Fine. You know more about basketball than I do.
You've repeated that coaches can be wrong from time to time (even good coaches). Fine. Not every coach gets it right.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that Wojo (a guy with way more credentials than anybody, including you) might be right, and you might be wrong (even Bill Belicheck didn't start Tom Brady in week 1).
I can appreciate that you have a specific viewpoint and opinion, but your inability to recognize that you might be wrong is maddening. You won't even allow for that possibility?
Here's my premise:
Do you feel on this year's team we HAVE to have Derrick Wilson playing the PG position?
Do you feel Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino both are capable enough to play the PG position?
It's been argued Derrick's best role (even by his supporters is that of a 10-15 minute backup)? Does this not seem to be a possibility this season?
Given that the team is 11-12, and JJJ basically doubles Derrick Wilson in points per 40, rebounds the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, and ACTUALLY TURNS THE BALL OVER LESS (as measured by turnover percentage) - why does Wojo feel he HAS to play Derrick 33+ minutes per game?
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=derrick-wilson&p1=3-jajuan-johnson
In my view, the Marquette team would be much more formidable if you played a lineup of:
Matt
Duane
JJJ
Juan/Steve
Luke
I simply do not see the downside to making the change to the above, and I feel you have to play your most talented players the most minutes. JJJ is infinitely more talented than Derrick Wilson. As are Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson.
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Didn't someone do that in "A Few Good Men?"
"Well, if you strenuously object then I should take some time to reconsider."
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That was well played Vander Blue Man. Nice work. Though I stand by my statement that I do LOL every time I read your ludicrous opinions on the game of basketball. If in your delusional world you feel Derrick Wilson can lead a team to victory, you must live in one fantasy land of a world.
You are making a mistake again. I haven't said Derrick Wilson could lead a team to victory once since the Fall of 2013. I have said that we aren't very good, Derrick being one of the main reasons why we aren't very good. But just because I don't think Derrick is very good doesn't mean I think the guy behind him on the depth chart is any better.
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That's cool - I'm sure I'm coming off as more of a d*ck than I intend. Agree to strenuously disagree.
I enjoy your sense of humor - all good. I get called a lot worse around here. Your smack talk/game is good by me.
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What is a fact is there is a clear and statistically relevant pattern of production for JJJ when he plays more than 25+ minutes per game. What is NOT a fact is to suggest that just because a guy starts poorly, it does not mean he CANNOT or WILL NOT play well if still given big minutes.
What is also clear is posters had the opportunity to choose from Derrick Wilson's ENTIRE MU basketball career to see if they could find a 6 game set of games that could match the production of JJJ this season (in the ONLY games JJJ got 25+). So basically we had 32 games last year of Derrick playing 25+, and now another 23 this year - so 55 games to choose from - and BARELY could Derrick's fans put together 6 games out of those 55 that Derrick puts up similar numbers to JJJ.
I'd rather play JJJ 25-32 minutes per game and see what he can do, when I know approximately 49 times out of 55, Derrick Wilson isn't going to produce what JJJ does in 6 out 6 tries.
And we've been playing with 3 PGS on the floor all season. Carlino can play it. Duane can. At least last year those in the support Derrick court could make a legitimate case when they said: We don't have any other options. This year?? Please.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/N7FeGLHjVsDQY/giphy.gif)
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Here's my premise:
Do you feel on this year's team we HAVE to have Derrick Wilson playing the PG position?
Do you feel Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino both are capable enough to play the PG position?
It's been argued Derrick's best role (even by his supporters is that of a 10-15 minute backup)? Does this not seem to be a possibility this season?
Given that the team is 11-12, and JJJ basically doubles Derrick Wilson in points per 40, rebounds the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, and ACTUALLY TURNS THE BALL OVER LESS (as measured by turnover percentage) - why does Wojo feel he HAS to play Derrick 33+ minutes per game?
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=derrick-wilson&p1=3-jajuan-johnson
In my view, the Marquette team would be much more formidable if you played a lineup of:
Matt
Duane
JJJ
Juan/Steve
Luke
I simply do not see the downside to making the change to the above, and I feel you have to play your most talented players the most minutes. JJJ is infinitely more talented than Derrick Wilson. As are Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson.
You're getting caught up in the specifics.
Look at the big picture of how you are presenting your opinions.
Ners: "I've played the game more than you guys, and I know more about basketball. Coaches are sometimes wrong, and I know Wojo is wrong in this case"
Ammo: "But, Ners, Wojo has played way more ball than you, isn't it possible that you're could be wrong?"
Ners: "No."
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
You see how that turns people off?
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Also, I'd like to applaud everybody for keeping this in 1 thread.
Ners, if you could stay in this thread forever, like some sort of vortex, that would be cool.
We all know what we are getting into when we come to this thread. That's totally fair.
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"Well, if you strenuously object then I should take some time to reconsider."
That's pretty much what the other lawyer said to me afterwards. Good lesson to learn early on.
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You're getting caught up in the specifics.
Look at the big picture of how you are presenting your opinions.
Ners: "I've played the game more than you guys, and I know more about basketball. Coaches are sometimes wrong, and I know Wojo is wrong in this case"
Ammo: "But, Ners, Wojo has played way more ball than you, isn't it possible that you're could be wrong?"
Ners: "No."
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
You see how that turns people off?
Ding ding ding ding
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First time I have opened this thread in a while and what do I see?
You guys are still arguing and trying to change Ners' mind.... I guess there are some things that need to be seen to be believed.
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Also, I'd like to applaud everybody for keeping this in 1 thread.
Ners, if you could stay in this thread forever, like some sort of vortex, that would be cool.
We all know what we are getting into when we come to this thread. That's totally fair.
Good point Ammo. Ban Ners from every other thread and confine him to this one since every other thread he touches turns back to this subject anyway.
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Ners,
You do understand that by you narrowing it down to games of 25+minutes or more that you are "trying to parse data into all sorts of subsets" right? Why not extend the range to 22 minutes so his clunker against powerhouse Alabama A&M is included? Why not extend it to 20 minutes so his average game against MSU and his clunker against Georgetown is included? Hell, last season you told us that a player needed 10 minutes to get in a grove. Why not extend the range to there?
I narrowed it to top 100 teams because that seems like a reasonable line for determining "top competition." JjJ has consistently devoured cupcakes and done poorly against top competition. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that fact is proof of your bias. I brought up NOVA and HALL being JjJ's first back to back solid outings against top competition because its true. You say its because he's unfairly benched. I say its because he hasn't performed well enough to stay off the bench. But now, for the first time, he did get 2 solid runs of playing time. Isn't that something to be celebrated?
You've brought up the Tennessee game before. Honestly, I don't remember what JjJ was like in that game (Though I do think it's funny that you are using O-rating as a justification even though you spent half of this thread tearing it apart). But what I do remember is that we won that game and that it was our third best win of the year. Is it possible that even though JjJ was playing really well, that others on the team were still playing better?
You've also brought up Pomeroy's limited role player label for Derrick before. As I understand it, that means he is highly efficient and low usage. On a good team, he would be a top bench player or worst starter. What does it say about JjJ (I don't have a KP subscription)? Because he is low efficency but high usage. That means that on a good team, he would be a benchwarmer. Limited role player is better than whatever JjJ is.
You seem to not understand that as minutes go up, production rate decreases, not the other way around. That is baksetball stats 101. JjJ would score more points and steal more. Derrick would get more boards, have more assists, turn the ball over WAY less, shoot at a higher FG% and 3P%. And we can argue all day about whether or not Derrick's defense is elite or not but I think even you would agree that he is a better defender than JjJ. He would also do those little things that you love to criticize much better. You conveniently sidestepped this point, but there is a reason why Derrick has the second highest value add and JjJ has the second lowest.
Also, even though this thread title is about JjJ, it's really about Derrick isn't it? I don't think you actually give a rat's arse about JjJ's playing time, I think what you really care about is taking playing time away from Derrick. JjJ just happens to be the only guy on the bench who could feasibly take Derrick's minutes.
Go ahead and extend it to all games over 20 minutes. That comes to 12 games. His average minutes in those games comes down to 26.75, as opposed to 29.6 in the games he gets 25+. He scores 11.58ppg in the 12 games over 20 minutes. NOw the sample size is up to 12 games. 7 of which are Top 55 teams per Pomeroy.
It is what it is.
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You're getting caught up in the specifics.
Look at the big picture of how you are presenting your opinions.
Ners: "I've played the game more than you guys, and I know more about basketball. Coaches are sometimes wrong, and I know Wojo is wrong in this case"
Ammo: "But, Ners, Wojo has played way more ball than you, isn't it possible that you're could be wrong?"
Ners: "No."
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
You see how that turns people off?
Ammo - This is par for the course with you. You asked me why I felt Wojo was wrong this year. I have you my answer, and a serious of questions. You didn't even address one of the questions with your opinion/belief. Instead? Re-direct. I would appreciate hearing your insights and beliefs as to the question I asked. I mean you straight up asked me why I felt I was right and Wojo was wrong - I gave you my answers.
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Ammo - This is par for the course with you. You asked me why I felt Wojo was wrong this year. I have you my answer, and a serious of questions. You didn't even address one of the questions with your opinion/belief. Instead? Re-direct. I would appreciate hearing your insights and beliefs as to the question I asked. I mean you straight up asked me why I felt I was right and Wojo was wrong - I gave you my answers.
Actually, I never asked you why you thought Wojo was wrong. You've said it lots of times. I got it.
I asked why you couldn't even allow for the possibility that Wojo might be RIGHT and you might be WRONG. I apologize if I'm being unclear.
I'm trying to ask a logic question, not a specific question about Wojo vs Derrick vs JJJ.
Well, here's the logic:
You've repeated your credentials over and over again to build your credibility. Fine. You know more about basketball than I do.
You've repeated that coaches can be wrong from time to time (even good coaches). Fine. Not every coach gets it right.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that Wojo (a guy with way more credentials than anybody, including you) might be right, and you might be wrong (even Bill Belicheck didn't start Tom Brady in week 1).
I can appreciate that you have a specific viewpoint and opinion, but your inability to recognize that you might be wrong is maddening. You won't even allow for that possibility?
Oh, and as far as my personal view, I'm in favor of taking the least complicated approach... I assume when guys practice and play well, they earn minutes. End.
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Actually, I never asked you why you thought Wojo was wrong. You've said it lots of times. I got it.
I asked why you couldn't even allow for the possibility that Wojo might be RIGHT and you might be WRONG. I apologize if I'm being unclear.
I'm trying to ask a logic question, not a specific question about Wojo vs Derrick vs JJJ.
You weren't being unclear. Only one person in this thread doesn't see that.
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Are people expecting Carlino to play tonight?
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Okay...here's my issue with the whole "JJJ has to play 25+" argument. If that was true, we wouldn't see production from Jajuan until he had played probably 20+ minutes. I mean, you don't know how many minutes you will play from the start. So if he needs all this time to "get into the game", how is this explained?
.
- Against UT-Martin, Johnson had 9 points, 3 rebounds, 3 steals, and 1 block in the first half.
- Against NJIT, Johnson had 7 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 1 steal in the first half.
- Against Arizona State, Johnson had 10 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 2 steals in the first half.
- Against Morgan State, Johnson had 7 points, 3 steals, and 1 block in the first half.
- Against Seton Hall, Johnson had 9 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, and 1 block in the first half.
.
I admit I am cherry picking Jajuan's best performances. But what these show is that in those performances, he was playing well from the start! He didn't need 20 minutes to get into the game, he was productive from the start of the game. That was against both low-major and high-major teams. So when he's at his best, he's earning his minutes from the start of the game.
Saying he needs to get more minutes to get into the game is inane. It is the height of stupidity, and Jajuan's own performance proves that. When he is playing well in the first half, he earns more minutes and continues to play well in the second half. When he is not playing well in the first half, he doesn't get more minutes. Because he isn't earning them. I for one am glad to see him play like he did against Seton Hall and hope he uses it as a springboard to keep earning minutes like he did in the first halves of those games listed above.
But I'm not going to go overboard. Jajuan still has to earn it, and one performance isn't earning it. Like Matt, Duane, Luke, Sandy, and the rest of the team, he will earn more minutes only as he shows consistently he can put together performances that merit minutes. I really want to see him keep doing what he did on Saturday. But I'm not going to act like Saturday is what he will do every time he is on the court.
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Okay...here's my issue with the whole "JJJ has to play 25+" argument. If that was true, we wouldn't see production from Jajuan until he had played probably 20+ minutes. I mean, you don't know how many minutes you will play from the start. So if he needs all this time to "get into the game", how is this explained?
.
- Against UT-Martin, Johnson had 9 points, 3 rebounds, 3 steals, and 1 block in the first half.
- Against NJIT, Johnson had 7 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 1 steal in the first half.
- Against Arizona State, Johnson had 10 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 2 steals in the first half.
- Against Morgan State, Johnson had 7 points, 3 steals, and 1 block in the first half.
- Against Seton Hall, Johnson had 9 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, and 1 block in the first half.
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I admit I am cherry picking Jajuan's best performances. But what these show is that in those performances, he was playing well from the start! He didn't need 20 minutes to get into the game, he was productive from the start of the game. That was against both low-major and high-major teams. So when he's at his best, he's earning his minutes from the start of the game.
Saying he needs to get more minutes to get into the game is inane. It is the height of stupidity, and Jajuan's own performance proves that. When he is playing well in the first half, he earns more minutes and continues to play well in the second half. When he is not playing well in the first half, he doesn't get more minutes. Because he isn't earning them. I for one am glad to see him play like he did against Seton Hall and hope he uses it as a springboard to keep earning minutes like he did in the first halves of those games listed above.
But I'm not going to go overboard. Jajuan still has to earn it, and one performance isn't earning it. Like Matt, Duane, Luke, Sandy, and the rest of the team, he will earn more minutes only as he shows consistently he can put together performances that merit minutes. I really want to see him keep doing what he did on Saturday. But I'm not going to act like Saturday is what he will do every time he is on the court.
You are overly complicating this. This post started as "if JJJ plays more he has more stats." All "facts" were based on per game performance. It takes a special brand of crazy to extend to 18 pages an argument based on the premise that if a player plays more minutes the player will have better numbers. It's like a bad trip at a Dead concert.
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Actually, I never asked you why you thought Wojo was wrong. You've said it lots of times. I got it.
I asked why you couldn't even allow for the possibility that Wojo might be RIGHT and you might be WRONG. I apologize if I'm being unclear.
I'm trying to ask a logic question, not a specific question about Wojo vs Derrick vs JJJ.
Oh, and as far as my personal view, I'm in favor of taking the least complicated approach... I assume when guys practice and play well, they earn minutes. End.
Except one player doesn't play well - and earns more minutes than anybody else. Here's the stats for Big East play:
10 games. 34.1 minutes per game. 5.2ppg, 5.0 rebounds, 5.1 assists, 2.0 Turnovers per game.
When you are on a basketball floor for 85% of ALL available minutes, you are going to happen your way into numbers like the above.
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Reminds me of the first bench trial I had 27 years or so ago when I first became a lawyer. I stood up and said, I strenuously object! The other lawyer just looked at me and laughed....
He was probably not laughing at you. Every professional legal knows that a strenuous objection is different than a mere objection. Sort of like terminate with extreme prejudice vs. terminate!
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Okay...here's my issue with the whole "JJJ has to play 25+" argument. If that was true, we wouldn't see production from Jajuan until he had played probably 20+ minutes. I mean, you don't know how many minutes you will play from the start. So if he needs all this time to "get into the game", how is this explained?
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- Against UT-Martin, Johnson had 9 points, 3 rebounds, 3 steals, and 1 block in the first half.
- Against NJIT, Johnson had 7 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 1 steal in the first half.
- Against Arizona State, Johnson had 10 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist, and 2 steals in the first half.
- Against Morgan State, Johnson had 7 points, 3 steals, and 1 block in the first half.
- Against Seton Hall, Johnson had 9 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, and 1 block in the first half.
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I admit I am cherry picking Jajuan's best performances. But what these show is that in those performances, he was playing well from the start! He didn't need 20 minutes to get into the game, he was productive from the start of the game. That was against both low-major and high-major teams. So when he's at his best, he's earning his minutes from the start of the game.
Saying he needs to get more minutes to get into the game is inane. It is the height of stupidity, and Jajuan's own performance proves that. When he is playing well in the first half, he earns more minutes and continues to play well in the second half. When he is not playing well in the first half, he doesn't get more minutes. Because he isn't earning them. I for one am glad to see him play like he did against Seton Hall and hope he uses it as a springboard to keep earning minutes like he did in the first halves of those games listed above.
But I'm not going to go overboard. Jajuan still has to earn it, and one performance isn't earning it. Like Matt, Duane, Luke, Sandy, and the rest of the team, he will earn more minutes only as he shows consistently he can put together performances that merit minutes. I really want to see him keep doing what he did on Saturday. But I'm not going to act like Saturday is what he will do every time he is on the court.
Are you serious with this - or is it a troll post?
Meme candidate of the year award: "earning minutes."
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You are overly complicating this. This post started as "if JJJ plays more he has more stats." All "facts" were based on per game performance. It takes a special brand of crazy to extend to 18 pages an argument based on the premise that if a player plays more minutes the player will have better numbers. It's like a bad trip at a Dead concert.
Totally agree - yet those in your camp simply can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that if a player is on the court longer he is going to post stats. Derrick Wilson is a great case in point. By virtue of being on the floor 34 minutes a game he's bound to score 5 points and grab a few rebounds and get a few assists. What is sad is when you play THAT much and that's all the production you can bring to the table. Yet we have people here suggesting playing time needs to be "earned."
My question: How does a guy who scores at half the rate of another player, rebounds, steals and blocks shots at a lower rate, as well as turn the ball over at a higher percentage of possessions "earn" two times the playing time of another guard on the roster??
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My bad Blue Man. Thread has been all over. Agree to disagree on JJJ. Came completely off the rails when TAMU said he'd take Derrick Wilson's production every day of the week over JJJ.
Aren't you the guy who complains that other posters can't take someone having a different opinion than them? Why does me having a different opinion from you cause you to "completely come off the rails?"
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Except one player doesn't play well - and earns more minutes than anybody else. Here's the stats for Big East play:
10 games. 34.1 minutes per game. 5.2ppg, 5.0 rebounds, 5.1 assists, 2.0 Turnovers per game.
When you are on a basketball floor for 85% of ALL available minutes, you are going to happen your way into numbers like the above.
So you still can't answer Ammo's question. If you are smarter than us because you played basketball in high school, then wouldn't it stand to reason that Wojo is smarter than you because he played in high school, college, and has been a high major coach for nearly 20 years? And while it is true that even the best coaches make mistakes, isn't at all possible that you would make a mistake? Not saying that you did (even though I think so). But is it just possible that you could make a mistake when judging a basketball team?
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Are you serious with this - or is it a troll post?
Meme candidate of the year award: "earning minutes."
Brew posts a well reasoned argument backed up by stats, and all you can say is this?
Do you not think minutes are earned? Do you think that it is not a common practice of coaches to sit bench players who struggle in the start of the game and to reward bench players who come out hot with minutes? How do you think minutes are assigned by coaches?
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Probably best to go back to the kids. Any expectations you have of a logical or reasoned discussion on this (or any of the other corrupted threads) are doomed to failure.
****edited for brevity****
In the end, if you really need to visit an alternate universe, read your kids some Dr. Suess. It will make about as much sense.
As i get ready for the X game and getting caught up on Scoop i have to acknowledge the beauty of your response (also, the beauty that is Vander Blue Man Group)! Well done/thanks.
When the Wife is traveling it's always a great reminder that one adult parenting at a time is infinitely better than two trying to do it at the same time. Here we have 15 parents parenting at the same time. The kids are getting too many conflicting messages to process.
Also, at ages 6 and 8 it's easy to figure out where their illogic is coming from. Either they are hungry, tired, or need to poop..............
................wait a minute...........
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I know the shots may not have fallen, but I liked JJJ tonight. He was strong on the boards, only overpursued a couple times on steals (forced a turnover on one overpursuit anyway), and had a few shots that could have fallen.
Let's be honest, no one shot well, so that's hardly the biggest sin in this one.
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You are overly complicating this. This post started as "if JJJ plays more he has more stats." All "facts" were based on per game performance. It takes a special brand of crazy to extend to 18 pages an argument based on the premise that if a player plays more minutes the player will have better numbers. It's like a bad trip at a Dead concert.
Very bad, terrible really....
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I know the shots may not have fallen, but I liked JJJ tonight. He was strong on the boards, only overpursued a couple times on steals (forced a turnover on one overpursuit anyway), and had a few shots that could have fallen.
Let's be honest, no one shot well, so that's hardly the biggest sin in this one.
Well Juan was 5/7
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Totally agree - yet those in your camp simply can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that if a player is on the court longer he is going to post stats. Derrick Wilson is a great case in point. By virtue of being on the floor 34 minutes a game he's bound to score 5 points and grab a few rebounds and get a few assists. What is sad is when you play THAT much and that's all the production you can bring to the table. Yet we have people here suggesting playing time needs to be "earned."
My question: How does a guy who scores at half the rate of another player, rebounds, steals and blocks shots at a lower rate, as well as turn the ball over at a higher percentage of possessions "earn" two times the playing time of another guard on the roster??
I know you do not see it, but it is his defense. I know you will say no way, but it is what it is. Two different coaching staffs have seen it and most of the anouncers (most have played or coached) do see it.
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I know the shots may not have fallen, but I liked JJJ tonight. He was strong on the boards, only overpursued a couple times on steals (forced a turnover on one overpursuit anyway), and had a few shots that could have fallen.
Let's be honest, no one shot well, so that's hardly the biggest sin in this one.
Agreed with this assessment. He's playing better as of late. Hopefully it is a sign of an upward trajectory
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This thread has worn me out, so I'm moving on.
Still never heard what Wojo's motivation to discipline JJJ could have been other than what Wojo stated, and now I never will, at least not in this thread.
Carry on, all.