Why JJJ has to play 25+ minutes per game

[HutchwasClutch]

Remember what his motivations are.  (He is no long-term fan of the program.  Flat out lying.)

I think you've absolutely nailed that with TW.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Most overrated 27th best player in his class I've ever seen, at least this year

Yes I agree.

Guy has no heart, plays timidly, is afraid to mess up. 


Sandy Cohen
Lots of heart, plays fearless, does not care if he misses shot


The minutes go to Cohen

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Tennessee forced Cuonzo Martin out after 3 years and a 63-41 record. So that is the max time I would give him. The donors here at MU may not be willing to wait that long and that would be of major importance to me in that position.  The University should be concerned by the very poor culture that Wojo is creating. MU needs to be considered about the student athlete overall experience. They tell the parents they are acting In Loco Parentis.   As much as I was displeased by Buzz in his last year, I always felt he cared about the kids on his team. Wojo is willing to callously throw a kid under the bus if it fits his needs (Burton).  So all things considered, I would treat him the same way he treats JJJ, put him on a very short leash and yank it if he doesn't perform instantly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Net Net I would be willing to give him one more year. Cut your losses and run.

How was Burton thrown under the bus? I've never really seen anything to indicate that.

[MU B2002]

How was Burton thrown under the bus? I've never really seen anything to indicate that.

He literally threw him under the team bus.  You didn't hear about that?  It happened when Wojo was jerking him around over his minutes.  Derrick was there too.

[MerrittsMustache]

He literally threw him under the team bus.  You didn't hear about that?  It happened when Wojo was jerking him around over his minutes.  Derrick was there too.

Yep. Then they had trouble pulling him out from under the bus because Wojo had him on such a short leash.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

He literally threw him under the team bus.  You didn't hear about that?  It happened when Wojo was jerking him around over his minutes.  Derrick was there too.

I heard Wojo used his mind-games to have Deonte throw himself under the bus.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I heard Wojo used his mind-games to have Deonte throw himself under the bus.

As I understand it, Wojo gave Deonte's bus to Derrick.

[NersEllenson]

Of those 6 games, only Ohio St and Providence are in the top 100 in the RPI.  His averages in those games:

7 PPG, 24% shooting, 0% from 3, 7 TOs.

The other 4 games average RPI 181.

17 PPG, 55% shooting, 31% from 3, 9 TOs.

If your point is that when he plays 25 minutes a game against the bottom half of the NCAA, he plays well, but when he does it against the top 100, he is bad.  You would have a lot more people that agree with you. 

Pomeroy's tend to be much more reflective of actual team strength.  Arizona State is ranked 51 by Pomeroy.

So, JJJ against Top 51 teams:

JJJ in those games?  12ppg, 5.3 rebounds/game, 2.3 assist/game, 2.6 steals per game.

If you want, feel free to check Derrick's stats against Ohio State, Arizona State, and Providence.  What you will find is 25.6 minutes per game, 4.6ppg, 1.6 rebounds/game, 3.6 assists/game, .66/steals per game.

Now, of course JJJ has only gotten 25 minutes in 6 games this year, and the output for those games is what it is.  Sadly, you'd have to take Derrick's best 6 games from his entire career against competition of any caliber to match similar stats to what JJJ posted just this season in the 6 games he was given 25 minutes.

But I know, I know - You have to earn your playing time in practice.  It doesn't matter what you do in games.  

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Most overrated 27th best player in his class I've ever seen, at least this year

Yes I agree.

I wouldn't say that. One only has to look two spots above JjJ to find a more overrated player. Jermaine Lawrence was number 25 in the 2013 class. He currently plays for Manhattan and is averaging around 4 ppg in 13 mpg. Again, for Manhattan.

JjJ was overrated. But that happens to players all the time. Kid has good production for the second lowest player on the depth chart of a high major team. He is working hard to rework his shooting form. That is a long, slow, and challenging process. He might surprise us next season. Or he might not

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But I know, I know - You have to earn your playing time in practice.  It doesn't matter what you do in games.  

No, it matters what you do in games. Derrick has been better.

[NersEllenson]

How was Burton thrown under the bus? I've never really seen anything to indicate that.

Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication.  But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team.  When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy.  Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team.  Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16.  WOW.

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication.  But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team.  When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy.  Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team.  Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16.  WOW.

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html

This does not paint Mr Burton in a very favorable light

[WarriorInNYC]

Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication.  But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team.  When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy.  Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team.  Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16.  WOW.

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html

I'm not really sure how not giving Deonte more minutes is considered "throwing him under the bus".

[mu-rara]

This does not paint Mr Burton in a very favorable light

C'mon.  Ners was an exceptional HS basketball player.  We know that because he said so.

He got there because his HS coach saw greatness in him.  He stunk up the joint his first three years, blew defensive assignments, didn't go after rebounds, etc. but found his game as a senior, and was all something or other.

This is the only explanation I can find for a supposed high level HS player excusing a player who dogs it and still expects big time minutes.

I know I a going to regret this.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm not really sure how not giving Deonte more minutes is considered "throwing him under the bus".

"Throwing him under the bus" - "Holding him accountable for an unwillingness to contribute in ways other than scoring"

Tomato - Tomahto

[tower912]

Turning the question around, did Wojo receive from Deonte what he felt he had been promised?   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication.  But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team.  When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy.  Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team.  Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16.  WOW.

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html

You might be 100% correct, I have no specific details on the specific situation. I only know what Burton said in the media, which doesn't exactly match what you say.  

Anyways, I'm just not sure how that equates to "throwing Burton under the bus". Wojo didn't come out in the media and trash him. Wojo isn't blaming him for transferring. Wojo isn't complaining about only having 8 players. Etc. etc.

Burton decided that MU was no longer the best fit for him. He transferred. I wish him the best of luck.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

"Throwing him under the bus" - "Holding him accountable for an unwillingness to contribute in ways other than scoring"

Tomato - Tomahto

Objection! Speculative.

Just take it on it's facts. For whatever reason, Burton decided MU was no longer the best fit for him. That's it.

I'm indifferent.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

This does not paint Mr Burton in a very favorable light

Indeed, it's all part of the bassackwards narrative of one poster that minutes are determined in advance of (or despite) performance.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Perhaps when you aren't privy to conversations that take place between players, coaches and their families/support system you wouldn't have any indication.  But, if this helps - Deonte had expectations based on conversations with Wojo that he'd be a key player on the team.  When his minutes in the early season weren't anything close to what he was anticipating - well, he grew unhappy.  Furthermore, you can take a look at this chart Sugar provided and see that coming off his freshman year, he had every reason to expect to be a key player and major minute guy on this year's team.  Pretty much turned in the best freshman season since Dominic James at MU and was coming off a freshman year of getting 12 minutes a game, and our new coach ratcheted that up all the way to 16.  WOW.

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html

That's it? That's the awful thing that wojo did to make you say he threw Burton under the bus? I was expecting something at least sort of sketchy.

I'm sure that wojo told Burton he would be a key player when took over. He was an all big east freshman, of course the coach would think he would be a key player. What I'm positive Wojo didn't say was you will be a key player, this year, no matter how you're performing, and I will give you at least X minutes a game.

Promises like what you are describing are two way agreements. The coaches agree to give minutes if the players give them effort and production. Burton I'm sure gave effort but he didn't give wojo production. He failed to hold up his end of the bargain. Burton struggled, we all saw that. I personally think it was due to having to play pf and dealing with a terrible tragedy. Whatever the reason, his production was not worthy of more minutes.

You have the player coach relationship backwards. Coaches don't give minutes. Players aren't entitled to minutes. Players earn minutes. Coaches reward production and effort with minutes. Burton wasn't suddenly going to get better because he got more minutes. But he would suddenly get more minutes if he got better.

I know you think you are supporting players like JjJ and Burton but you actually make them out to be entitled, uncoachable, pouters who aren't self aware and quit when they don't get their way. I really think they are better men than that. I think Burton may have been frustrated with his role but I think he would have worked through that if he wasn't dealing with a tragedy in his personal life. I think JjJ is working hard everyday to get better and earn his minutes. Sandy is living proof that wojo rewards improvement with game minutes.

[MerrittsMustache]

Objection! Speculative.

Just take it on it's facts. For whatever reason, Burton decided MU was no longer the best fit for him. That's it.

I'm indifferent.

Judge Perd overrules your objection.

My post was in response to the notion that Burton's slight increase in minutes constituted him being "thrown under the bus."

_{(Judge Perd is not a real judge)}

[tower912]

That's it? That's the awful thing that wojo did to make you say he threw Burton under the bus? I was expecting something at least sort of sketchy.

I'm sure that wojo told Burton he would be a key player when took over. He was an all big east freshman, of course the coach would think he would be a key player. What I'm positive Wojo didn't say was you will be a key player, this year, no matter how you're performing, and I will give you at least X minutes a game.

Promises like what you are describing are two way agreements. The coaches agree to give minutes if the players give them effort and production. Burton I'm sure gave effort but he didn't give wojo production. He failed to hold up his end of the bargain. Burton struggled, we all saw that. I personally think it was due to having to play pf and dealing with a terrible tragedy. Whatever the reason, his production was not worthy of more minutes.

You have the player coach relationship backwards. Coaches don't give minutes. Players aren't entitled to minutes. Players earn minutes. Coaches reward production and effort with minutes. Burton wasn't suddenly going to get better because he got more minutes. But he would suddenly get more minutes if he got better.

I know you think you are supporting players like JjJ and Burton but you actually make them out to be entitled, uncoachable, pouters who aren't self aware and quit when they don't get their way. I really think they are better men than that. I think Burton may have been frustrated with his role but I think he would have worked through that if he wasn't dealing with a tragedy in his personal life. I think JjJ is working hard everyday to get better and earn his minutes. Sandy is living proof that wojo rewards improvement with game minutes.

Well done.   This is much better, much more complete version of my question whether Wojo had received what he had been promised by Burton.    Kudos.   Actually, it should be the starting point of a new thread.  What does a coach owe a player and what does the player owe the coach?   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Judge Perd overrules your objection.

My post was in response to the notion that Burton's slight increase in minutes constituted him being "thrown under the bus."

_{(Judge Perd is not a real judge)}

I don't know what that means, but Judge Perd will allow it.

(Judge Perd is not a real judge)

[NersEllenson]

No, it matters what you do in games. Derrick has been better.

Except he continues to be classified by Pomeroy as a limited role player, playing max minutes.  See the disconnect??  It is completely incongruent that your leading minute getter is essentially a limited role player.  By virtue of being on the floor 33+ minutes per game - you are going to find your way to 5 ppg, and some rebounds and assists.  The proverbial blind squirrel can find a nut.  And as has been revealed, O-Rating in and of itself is an incredibly flawed metric.

[NersEllenson]

Indeed, it's all part of the bassackwards narrative of one poster that minutes are determined in advance of (or despite) performance.

LOL - Says the guy who champions continued and max minutes for a guy that has produced next to nothing on the floor for over 1.5 seasons of being played max minutes.

And for the 100th time - here were Burton's numbers when he transferred:
47.8% FG percentage (tops on team).  76.5 FT (2nd on team).  40% 3pt FG% (tops on team at time of transfer) 

You same clowns tear down Denote's production (which there actually is, and was as a freshman) and champion a senior who does virtually nothing out there...other than not screw up, and grab some rebounds and make a few lateral passes along the perimeter for assists.  It really is ass backwards and asinine.