Matt Carlino

[GGGG]

Sure, he "improved".  But teams increasingly did not bother guarding him.  So, his teammates became less effective and they did not improve.  A Catch-22 here.

And how are you going to prove this?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

And how are you going to prove this?

Not a Derrick hater but just look at game film and how much the defenders sagged off of him and use his defender to go help on Todd, Davante and Jamil

[GGGG]

Not a Derrick hater but just look at game film and how much the defenders sagged off of him and use his defender to go help on Todd, Davante and Jamil

No.  How is he going to prove that his teammates became less effective.  Surely there is statistical proof of that.

[Nukem2]

And how are you going to prove this?

Well, all you have to do is rewatch the games on your DVR and watch teams sagging into the lane while Derrick is running around unimpeded.  Rather obvious that opponents were playing 5 on 4 defense.  Now, was that his fault or did Buzz not give him the green light to shoot?  Derrick needs to shoot to loosen things up (and, gain confidence in his shot)...?

[Tums Festival]

Well, all you have to do is rewatch the games on your DVR and watch teams sagging into the lane while Derrick is running around unimpeded.  Rather obvious that opponents were playing 5 on 4 defense.  Now, was that his fault or did Buzz not give him the green light to shoot?  Derrick needs to shoot to loosen things up (and, gain confidence in his shot)...?

Not sure if asking a bad shooter to take more shots would've loosened up the defense much at all. We probably would've lost a couple more games if Derrick starting launching many more shots.

[GGGG]

Well, all you have to do is rewatch the games on your DVR and watch teams sagging into the lane while Derrick is running around unimpeded.  Rather obvious that opponents were playing 5 on 4 defense.  Now, was that his fault or did Buzz not give him the green light to shoot?  Derrick needs to shoot to loosen things up (and, gain confidence in his shot)...?

Oh.

So you have no real evidence for your assertion.  TAMU Eagle provided statistical evidence that Derrick improved.  You said that he improved but he made his teammates less effective in the process.  I would expect that you would at least meet the statistical standards that TAMU used to prove him wrong...you know...besides the eye ball test.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

2) I never said that Carlino would get a majority of the minutes next year...I said IF he did..it would stunt Dawson and Duane's growth.

My apologies for misreading. I still don't think it would stunt their growth that much. Players develop, even if they aren't getting game time. If you don't sign a player who could help because it might stunt a player's growth, that sets an unrealistic standard. Obviously Wades example of signing 13 new players ever season so they don't get in the way of each other's development is ridiculous, but where do you draw the line? Diamond Stone will probably be a one and done. Should we not sign him because it might stunt Luke Fischer's growth? Luke will be here longer so long term it would be better for the program if he got as many minutes as possible. Planning for the future is great but you need to play the current season. I'm not sacrificing making my team better just because it MIGHT stunt the growth of two talented underclassmen.

Let's get a few things straight:
3) You cite Kaminsky - that's great...players should improve in the offseason...a lot..and as they get older....yet you argued all season long that Derrick was a solid PG, improving, and not the primary cause for the teams struggles...Derrick didn't improve/blossom as a junior..he's had 3 years in the program..if he hasn't been able to become better than a 7% 3pt shooter, or 43% 3 pt shooter..with ALL that practice time....AND game time...he probably isn't going to make a drastic improvement as a senior.

Expect Derrick did improve. Drastically.

JR Season:  5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, .391 FG
SO Season: 1.1 ppg, 0.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg, .273 FG

Again, did he become a world beater? No. Did he get better? Yes. And before you say he's the same he just got more minutes, check again. The per 40s are better his junior season. You can say Derrick is not a good player. But stop trying to make it seem like he has never improved, it's simply not true. And we can argue til the cows come home about what the primary cause of last season's struggles were, but that is a different conversation from this one. What I will say is that Derrick performed exactly as expected him to in the preseason. Other players did not. Some of that was on them, some was injury/transfer, and a lot was on Buzz.

Anyway, back to the original point of the Kaminsky example. All I was trying to show is that players can develop despite limited playing time. I'm sensing a lot of fear about Carlino from several posters. That if he plays Dawson/Duane will wither on the bench. Even if they only get 10 minutes per game next season, they will still develop. Playing time isn't the end all be all.

4) I personally don't think Carlino is a better PG/player than what Duane/John would be next year...but if he comes...it should be an interesting competition.  Just don't think it is a wise move on Wojo's part to bring a guy in for 1 year, when two kids at the same position just committed to stay with the program/you as the head coach..only to see a 4th PG brought into the mix.  Kids want to play..and play lots of minutes.  Duane will be chomping at the bit, as will Dawson.

This is a more logical reason. You don't think he's good enough to supplant John/Duane. That makes more sense than John/Duane will stop developing.  Personally, I don't know who is better. Dawson was ok last season and Duane hasn't played a second of college ball. Either could turn out to be an absolute stud....or an absolute dud. I already know Carlino is a pretty good PG. So I'd be happy bringing him in case Duane/Dawson aren't ready.

The way I see it, either Carlino is worse than Duane/Dawson/Derrick which means we have another backup guard, more depth, and it means that one of the three Ds are playing pretty damn well. Or Carlino is better than the three Ds and we get an instant upgrade at PG. It seems like a win win.

And my questions still stand: 1) If you found out that Derrick was going to be the starter next season, would you be clamoring for Carlino? 2) We have three open scholarships, Carlino is one of the best available players, what other three players are out there that would be a better pickup for us?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Sure, he "improved".  But teams increasingly did not bother guarding him.  So, his teammates became less effective and they did not improve.  A Catch-22 here.

1) Proof?
2) Mattyv, could you hook us up with some ortg analysis?
3) How did his steals going up have anything to do with defenders not guarding him?
4) His assists went up, which means he was putting his teammates in a position to score more often
5) Rewatch your DVRs, the sagging of Derrick started during the Ohio State game

[willie warrior]

No.  How is he going to prove that his teammates became less effective.  Surely there is statistical proof of that.

Here we go with the Sultan still defending Derrick and his boy Buzz. Look at games--Derrick's defender did not guard him, clogging the muddle and making Gardner less effective. This caused Gardner having to come outside for the ball, where he is less effective. It is not rocket science--but to the Buzz/Derrick slurper with the blinders still on, it is not at all evident. Sultan: Take your blind loyalty, along with Derrick to VT, where you can join the other Buzz slurpers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Here we go with the Sultan still defending Derrick and his boy Buzz. Look at games--Derrick's defender did not guard him, clogging the muddle and making Gardner less effective. This caused Gardner having to come outside for the ball, where he is less effective. It is not rocket science--but to the Buzz/Derrick slurper with the blinders still on, it is not at all evident. Sultan: Take your blind loyalty, along with Derrick to VT, where you can join the other Buzz slurpers.

Yet Derrick's ORTG was higher than Dawson's. Meaning that the team as a whole performed better with Derrick in the game than it did with Dawson. Unless there was another PG hiding somewhere, he was the best we had.

[tower912]

TAMU, I agree with you.  But even if Mattyv reposts his ortg% showing that the team was more efficient with Derrick running the team vs. Dawson running the team, Ners will discount them because they can't be taken seriously because Dawson didn't get enough stretches of long, uninterrupted play.  In other words, if it doesn't back up Ners point, it doesn't count.   

[wadesworld]

TAMU, I agree with you.  But even if Mattyv reposts his ortg% showing that the team was more efficient with Derrick running the team vs. Dawson running the team, Ners will discount them because they can't be taken seriously because Dawson didn't get enough stretches of long, uninterrupted play.  In other words, if it doesn't back up Ners point, it doesn't count.   

Fact.

[keefe]

And how are you going to prove this?

Badges? Badges! We don't need no stinking badges!

[Hards Alumni]

I thought this thread was about Matt Carlino, not another dick measuring contest.

For the record, none of you win.  Ever.

[LastWarrior]

I thought this thread was about Matt Carlino, not another dick measuring contest.

For the record, none of you win.  Ever.

+1 and AMEN!!

[Hards Alumni]

In fact, allow me to help you guys reach a compromise.

Derrick Wilson got better as the year progressed, but he was still terrible.

[Skatastrophy]

I thought this thread was about Matt Carlino, not another dick measuring contest.

For the record, none of you win.  Ever.

To scale

8==============================D

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

To scale

8==============================D

Each = represents an inch right?

[hoops12]

Expect Derrick did improve. Drastically.

JR Season:  5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg
SO Season: 1.1 ppg, 0.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.7 spg

Please provide the same stats based on minutes played per game in both seasons. I think that would be more of an indication if there was a "drastic" improvement. Personally, stats can tell you one thing, but what you provide to an offense, and cohesiveness of a unit isn't proven through stats.

Derrick is a great kid, and he was only doing what his coaches were asking him to do. However, he was asked to run a team and he had too many deficiencies to lead us to success on a consistent basis. He is a "good" backup point guard at the major division one level.

GO MU!

[wadesworld]

Why discount stats and say we need "per minute" stats?  If a player wasn't good enough to see minutes one season and was the next, doesn't that in and of itself prove there was improvement made?  See Frank Kaminsky.  His per minute stats would suggest that the improvements he made from his sophomore to junior seasons weren't a big improvements.  Does anybody actually believe he didn't improve that much?

[MaymonsPops]

Why discount stats and say we need "per minute" stats?  If a player wasn't good enough to see minutes one season and was the next, doesn't that in and of itself prove there was improvement made?  See Frank Kaminsky.  His per minute stats would suggest that the improvements he made from his sophomore to junior seasons weren't a big improvements.  Does anybody actually believe he didn't improve that much?

What? So whoever fills in the Michigan front court next year (McGary, Horford, J. Morgan all leaving) made "the big jump" because they are going from 0-5 mpg to 30 mpg automatically? There's no way that Cadougan graduating and Duane's injury had any impact on the increase of Wilson's minutes last year, right?

[JakeBarnes]

What? So whoever fills in the Michigan front court next year (McGary, Horford, J. Morgan all leaving) made "the big jump" because they are going from 0-5 mpg to 30 mpg automatically? There's no way that Cadougan graduating and Duane's injury had any impact on the increase of Wilson's minutes last year, right?

The real question is: did those occurrences have any impact on Frank Kaminsky's minutes.

[wadesworld]

What? So whoever fills in the Michigan front court next year (McGary, Horford, J. Morgan all leaving) made "the big jump" because they are going from 0-5 mpg to 30 mpg automatically? There's no way that Cadougan graduating and Duane's injury had any impact on the increase of Wilson's minutes last year, right?

Graduation happens every year in every program.  The players left have to develop and beat out the other players on the roster.  Derrick did that last year.  And believe it or not, while it gave Derrick a few more minutes/game because Duane was not available at all, Derrick was going to get a large majority of the minutes at the point regardless of whether Duane was healthy or not.

[MaymonsPops]

Graduation happens every year in every program.  The players left have to develop and beat out the other players on the roster.  Derrick did that last year.  And believe it or not, while it gave Derrick a few more minutes/game because Duane was not available at all, Derrick was going to get a large majority of the minutes at the point regardless of whether Duane was healthy or not.

Okay, then I should expect him to get ~30 mpg again this year? Same guys to compete with and with the large strides he took last year, it'd be tough to justify playing him less...

[keefe]

The real question is: did those occurrences have any impact on Frank Kaminsky's minutes.

No. The real issue is Josh Gasser: Gifted traditional or overrated windbag?