Futbol Talk

[jesmu84]

The MLS has made CONCACAF better and more competitive.

In order for the MLS to continue becoming a better league they need to do the following:
1. Change their schedule to conform with the rest of the world.  Single biggest reason holding this league back.  Same playing window, same transfer window, same national game window.
2. Continue to find and buy good young talent.  If the schedule is changed, now you open the ability to get good young talent loaned to our league.  Raises the talent level overall.  Develop players and sell them for a profit until the competitive level reaches a point where you no longer need to sell them. 
3. Figure out the best way to bring in Liga MX
4. Pour money into Academies to raise the talent and development level of young players in this country
5. Eliminate the pay for play concept or at least minimize its influence by sanctioning clubs and providing better coaching at the lower levels

Until changes are made and the talent level rises in the MLS, all of the U.S.'s most talented younger players should and do go oversees.

For most owners, this is a waste of money. Too many teams owned by people out to make a financial investment. Not out for a successful franchise.

[JWags85]

For most owners, this is a waste of money. Too many teams owned by people out to make a financial investment. Not out for a successful franchise.

Yep and the MLS has encouraged this IMO.

Unrelated to MLS, Chris Wilder is the most underrated manager in England, if not Europe. It might not be the sexiest soccer, but what he’s accomplished at Sheffield United is nothing short of remarkable. Looking like League One to Europa League qualification in the span of 4 seasons. And not a fluke invite from winning a cup like Wigan

[brewcity77]

For me, MLS is an International Club Soccer League first foremost as opposed to a training ground for the U.S. National Team. It certainly can be and has been both. And that's good too. But it's not a means to end with the National Team, it's an entity to be enjoyed in an of itself.

I've never been invested in any MLS team. I've long felt the league should be used exactly as Germany used the Bundesliga to rebuild their own national team. Make each MLS team an academy, develop homegrown players and reward or require teams to field Americans.

Ultimately, the sport's popularity domestically has always been driven by the national team. 1994, 2002, 2010, those moments drove interest. The better the national team, the more interest MLS will garner. It's in their own best interest to drive the USMNT.

[shoothoops]

I've never been invested in any MLS team. I've long felt the league should be used exactly as Germany used the Bundesliga to rebuild their own national team. Make each MLS team an academy, develop homegrown players and reward or require teams to field Americans.

Ultimately, the sport's popularity domestically has always been driven by the national team. 1994, 2002, 2010, those moments drove interest. The better the national team, the more interest MLS will garner. It's in their own best interest to drive the USMNT.

Premiership ratings grew 74% in the U.S. over the past decade. Quality of play, quality of television production, quality of in game experience, story line interest, accessibility, etc...matter for U.S. fan interest.

MLS needs promotion/relegation, a more consistent television schedule, a bigger emphasis on regular season play, better advertising. For now the focus has been increased expansion fees and ad dollars. The league play and structure needs changing and improvement.

If you are not located in an MLS market, interest is much more casual.

 

[brewcity77]

Pro-Rel is a non-starter, they refuse to join the international calendar, and the comparable lack of quality to what's available on TV hurts.

What is might need more than Pro-Rel is more leagues. Maybe 4 regional leagues that get together for a playoff at the end of the year. Though that again dilutes the talent, but as MLS will never compete with top leagues, more teams to create more regional support might be a better call. That said, my only real investment is USMNT development, so more teams and more academy programs is what I'd like to see.

[shoothoops]

The Academy system has improved in the U.S. Youth coaches, college, high school, younger, want Fall/Spring schedule with fewer games. U.S. player development has long had an emphasis on games, tournaments, etc...as opposed to actual practice, player development. Many have wanted those changes for a long time. Then of course there is style of training philosophies which vary.

From playing, coaching, friends/family who have played and coached at high levels, etc...my interest is in all ages of development of the sport, not simply USMNT only.  And as mentioned if you either live in an MLS market or have a connection to particular players or staff, personal investment is greater.

Some of the improvements I would prefer are not quick fix implementations. I'm aware of that. And there certainly are frustrating aspects of professional league development in the U.S.

[Its DJOver]

First time in either a long time or ever that 4 different people managed a North London Derby in the same season. Arteta, Jose, Emery, and Poch. Pretty incredible.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

First time in either a long time or ever that 4 different people managed a North London Derby in the same season. Arteta, Jose, Emery, and Poch. Pretty incredible.

And North London is Lilywhite!

[Its DJOver]

Perfect example of why relegation battles can be more interesting than title chases. Villa and Bournemouth getting huge results today, and four out of the bottom 5 picked up all three points this weekend.  At this point in the season I'd much rather tune in for West Ham v Watford than Liverpool v Arsenal.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Leicester host Manchester United the last week of the year.  Looks like the winner of that will be in the Champions League and the loser may be out.

[Billy Hoyle]

Perfect example of why relegation battles can be more interesting than title chases. Villa and Bournemouth getting huge results today, and four out of the bottom 5 picked up all three points this weekend.  At this point in the season I'd much rather tune in for West Ham v Watford than Liverpool v Arsenal.

my wife is a huge Leicester fan but I was glad to see Bournemouth win yesterday since it keeps the relegation battle interesting. I read an article a few months ago on how if they go down they're screwed financially and may never get back. They weren't supposed to last more than one year in the EPL and they're on year five.

The MLS has made CONCACAF better and more competitive.

In order for the MLS to continue becoming a better league they need to do the following:
1. Change their schedule to conform with the rest of the world.  Single biggest reason holding this league back.  Same playing window, same transfer window, same national game window.

Until changes are made and the talent level rises in the MLS, all of the U.S.'s most talented younger players should and do go oversees.

That's just not feasible in the US, both due to the market (competition with NFL, NBA, NHL, college sports, all things international leagues don't have to deal with) and weather. Chicago, Minnesota, New England, NY, DC, all would be brutally cold for games in January and February.

[jesmu84]

Of course UEFA caved.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Of course UEFA caved.

It wasn’t UEFA though.

[JWags85]

my wife is a huge Leicester fan but I was glad to see Bournemouth win yesterday since it keeps the relegation battle interesting. I read an article a few months ago on how if they go down they're screwed financially and may never get back. They weren't supposed to last more than one year in the EPL and they're on year five.

Eddie Howe is an incredible manager, and I respect his loyalty to the Cherries, but he needs to get out. He did it briefly to go to Burnley, but he’s proven he’s an EPL level manager and he doesn’t want to try and find a gig after they go down.

That's just not feasible in the US, both due to the market (competition with NFL, NBA, NHL, college sports, all things international leagues don't have to deal with) and weather. Chicago, Minnesota, New England, NY, DC, all would be brutally cold for games in January and February.

No offense but this is a a cop out. The current season already overlaps March Madness, and a good chunk of NHL and NBA season, as as a very regional league still with the franchises, competes directly with the hyper regionality of MLB, not to mention the culmination of their season still overlaps NFL and CFB.

As for weather, that would make sense if there wasn’t a perfectly template for a solution. The Russian Premier League used to play spring to Fall, but the Russian Federation and teams like Zenit, CSKA, and for awhile Anzhi Makhachkala wanted to be bigger players in Europe and attract better signings. So now they play Fall to Spring and take a break from mid December to mid March. The MLS could easily do the same and not even have to delay as long. Break right before Christmas and resume as they normally do in February

[Big Papi]

my wife is a huge Leicester fan but I was glad to see Bournemouth win yesterday since it keeps the relegation battle interesting. I read an article a few months ago on how if they go down they're screwed financially and may never get back. They weren't supposed to last more than one year in the EPL and they're on year five.

That's just not feasible in the US, both due to the market (competition with NFL, NBA, NHL, college sports, all things international leagues don't have to deal with) and weather. Chicago, Minnesota, New England, NY, DC, all would be brutally cold for games in January and February.

Actually it is feasible.  Most European leagues have a winter break ranging from a few weeks to 8 weeks.  The Russian winter break is even longer but Austria, Denmark and Poland all have 6-8 weeks.  We the various climates in the U.S. we could have a winter break from mid December to the third week of February and schedule such that cities in warmer climates host games in December and February. 

Playoffs and finals can be played in warmer weather and there isn't an international break that screws with the MLS semi-finals and finals.  MLS is already competing with college football, NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB so that argument is here and there. 

If you want to grow the league and become a player in the soccer landscape, you have to conform with the international soccer schedule.  If you just want to have a league to have a league, keep the schedule the way it is.

[JWags85]

If you want to grow the league and become a player in the soccer landscape, you have to conform with the international soccer schedule.  If you just want to have a league to have a league, keep the schedule the way it is.

Which is what I fear. “Hey this way we can get a better TV deal with ESPN”.  Just figure out how to try and leap the NHL as the 4th most popular pro sport in the US from a dollars and marketing perspective. I don’t ever get a good vibe from the long term league development planning of the MLS. Time and time again it’s just head scratching

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think a summer league is better for the MLS. Less competition for butts and TV dollars. The NFL and college football would kill their fall ratings. European leagues are the big dogs in town so they don’t have to deal with that.

[Pakuni]

I think a summer league is better for the MLS. Less competition for butts and TV dollars. The NFL and college football would kill their fall ratings. European leagues are the big dogs in town so they don’t have to deal with that.

Yep.
And it's also a lot easier to get casual fans and group outings into the stadium in June, July and August than November, February and March. There aren't enough hardcore soccer fans - and definitely not MLS fans - to fill stadiums in most towns.

[Big Papi]

I think a summer league is better for the MLS. Less competition for butts and TV dollars. The NFL and college football would kill their fall ratings. European leagues are the big dogs in town so they don’t have to deal with that.

You do know that MLS currently ends its regular season and has playoffs during the heart of the college football and NFL season in the fall?  Keeping the schedule as is,is short sighted.  The MLS is a non-player in the transfer windows so getting good young players on loans is a no go.  It hurts the quality of the league but if all we care about is just having a league then everything should remain status quo.  Quality of the league and top players is going to bring butts in the seats and TV dollars.  Getting the quality of the league up so you can attract a younger Beckham, Ibra or Ronaldo is what the MLS should be setting their sights on.  Those players will get lots of butts in the seat.   

[Pakuni]

You do know that MLS currently ends its regular season and has playoffs during the heart of the college football and NFL season in the fall?  Keeping the schedule as is,is short sighted.  The MLS is a non-player in the transfer windows so getting good young players on loans is a no go.  It hurts the quality of the league but if all we care about is just having a league then everything should remain status quo.  Quality of the league and top players is going to bring butts in the seats and TV dollars.  Getting the quality of the league up so you can attract a younger Beckham, Ibra or Ronaldo is what the MLS should be setting their sights on.  Those players will get lots of butts in the seat.

The success of MLS depends way more on attracting and converting the casual fan than it does on attracting some expensive young player only the hardcore fan cares about. Those casual fans aren't going to sit through a regular season soccer game in November or February in Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Montreal, New York, Minnesota, etc. And that's not to mention you're going to lose most of the group sales to youth clubs and the like. Teams don't make nearly enough from TV to sacrifice the loss of ticket revenue you'd see, and your idea of just putting a third of the league's teams on the road for three months is a non-starter. You think the PA would go along with that? The owners of those teams?

The only thing that matters when it comes to the quality of players is money. Top players would flock to MLS if the pay were comparable to the top leagues. Many of them has said as much. But it's not, so they don't. And the only way it ever will (though it almost certainly won't) is if the MLS can grow its fan base. But that's not going to happen by a) making attending games less pleasant and b) making games harder to watch on television because you're going against college and pro football for more than half of your season.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The MLS is not going to be a league that attracts the world's best players at their peak.  The money will never be there because attendance is going to be good, but not great, and the TV money is going to dwarf what is given to the NFL, college football, NBA, etc.  Soccer just isn't culturally significant enough, and I really doubt it will be in my lifetime. The only thing that changes that is if the next younger Beckham, Ibra or Ronaldo are Americans.

Soccer is a great way to waste away a weekend morning.  But when noon hits, TVs across the country flip over to the NFL.  That's not changing anytime soon.

[JWags85]

The success of MLS depends way more on attracting and converting the casual fan than it does on attracting some expensive young player only the hardcore fan cares about. Those casual fans aren't going to sit through a regular season soccer game in November or February in Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Montreal, New York, Minnesota, etc. And that's not to mention you're going to lose most of the group sales to youth clubs and the like. Teams don't make nearly enough from TV to sacrifice the loss of ticket revenue you'd see, and your idea of just putting a third of the league's teams on the road for three months is a non-starter. You think the PA would go along with that? The owners of those teams?

The only thing that matters when it comes to the quality of players is money. Top players would flock to MLS if the pay were comparable to the top leagues. Many of them has said as much. But it's not, so they don't. And the only way it ever will (though it almost certainly won't) is if the MLS can grow its fan base. But that's not going to happen by a) making attending games less pleasant and b) making games harder to watch on television because you're going against college and pro football for more than half of your season.

This is false. If MLS paid like the EPL or La Liga, but the level of soccer is what it currently is, they wouldn’t attract stars. If you’re a top player, you can get paid anywhere. That’s why before MLS you saw top players go to the Middle East or Asia when they lost a step. China is a bit different, cause they weren’t matching salaries for guys like Oscar, Hulk, and others, they were beating it. But otherwise, most top international talent wants to make the money, but also play against the best. They won’t come to MLS, even for the fat paychecks, until that’s the case...or until they are older like they do now.

Best case scenario is MLS combining with LigaMX. Second best is moving to the Russian Premier League style schedule with a break in the winter and trying to improve the league by aligning it with the rest of the elite soccer world.  Otherwise, it remains a side show that will improve incrementally, but largely just remain a money marking venture for a few and continue to be a drag on the USMNT. Such is life.

FWIW, saying soccer isn’t culturally significant and won’t be for the next 20-30 years is pretty asinine. The TV deals and global reach changed everything. It wasn’t enough when a bunch of kids just played in youth leagues, but now the best soccer in the world is in everyone’s standard TV package. If you’re 6-7, you can easily fall in love with any German or English team as easily as your local NFL team if you’re not physically going to games. The calculus changed monumentally in the last 5 years.

[shoothoops]

We’ll see what happens long term with various things. Short term there aren’t going to be significant changes in the U.S. sports landscape.

High School football participation is down 27% in Ohio and 10% in Texas over the past decade. And participation has dropped significantly with White players Nationally, compared to Black and Hispanic players.

As for MLS, Billionaires are investing because right now, it’s a good investment. It’s a buy and hold and sell later for a profit. D.C. United’s owner had a net $90 million profit on a less than ten year investment. There are other examples. 

Soccer United Marketing (SUM) had $350 million in revenue last year and has a valuation of $2 billion (Forbes). It has a broad range of not just MLS events but U.S. team events, Mexico, etc...as well as real estate development money in the neighborhoods surrounding the new stadiums. Owners can and do dip into SUM money to cover some team costs.

There has been some talk about increased expansion fee money grabs, but the fees, $200 million to $300 million are still small by comparison to other U.S. sports leagues. Seattle is paying $650 million expansion fee for its NHL. team. Vegas paid $500 million. In today’s money NBA Charlotte’s $300 million fee in 2004 is $406 million. Houston Texas NFL expansion fee was $700 million in 2002 or $1 billion in today’s money.

Adidas deal is $90 million per year. TV deal is $720 million and will go up in two years. Attendance average is over 21k or only behind NFL and MLB, albeit with fewer games than other leagues. Soccer specific stadiums helps attract fans and corporate. Average team worth is $240 million with several in the $300’s.

So people can see why wealthy people are investing. They are also controlling some costs by not really having a true free agency. But that is something that needs to happen to improve the league.

In 1986, the top league in England had a 2 year $6.3 million tv deal.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This is false. If MLS paid like the EPL or La Liga, but the level of soccer is what it currently is, they wouldn’t attract stars. If you’re a top player, you can get paid anywhere. That’s why before MLS you saw top players go to the Middle East or Asia when they lost a step. China is a bit different, cause they weren’t matching salaries for guys like Oscar, Hulk, and others, they were beating it. But otherwise, most top international talent wants to make the money, but also play against the best. They won’t come to MLS, even for the fat paychecks, until that’s the case...or until they are older like they do now.

Best case scenario is MLS combining with LigaMX. Second best is moving to the Russian Premier League style schedule with a break in the winter and trying to improve the league by aligning it with the rest of the elite soccer world.  Otherwise, it remains a side show that will improve incrementally, but largely just remain a money marking venture for a few and continue to be a drag on the USMNT. Such is life.

FWIW, saying soccer isn’t culturally significant and won’t be for the next 20-30 years is pretty asinine. The TV deals and global reach changed everything. It wasn’t enough when a bunch of kids just played in youth leagues, but now the best soccer in the world is in everyone’s standard TV package. If you’re 6-7, you can easily fall in love with any German or English team as easily as your local NFL team if you’re not physically going to games. The calculus changed monumentally in the last 5 years.

Wags, you're a hard core soccer guy, and that's cool.  But I also think you don't have perspective here. The American public at large hardly follows MLS it and barely watches it on television.  Last year, an average MLS game on television drew less than 500,000 viewers.  Reruns of your basic cop shows have higher viewership.

Where MLS does well is in person attendance, and you would be killing that with moving it to a fall - spring league.  Which has hardly helped Russia at all.  They've slipped in UEFA league rankings and haven't put a team in the knockout rounds of the UCL since 2016.

MLS is going to be what it is.  A decent league, but not one that's going to compete with the big leagues in Europe.  Soccer just doesn't yet have the relevance here to make that happen....and I will stand by that statement completely. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

We’ll see what happens long term with various things. Short term there aren’t going to be significant changes in the U.S. sports landscape.

High School football participation is down 27% in Ohio and 10% in Texas over the past decade. And participation has dropped significantly with White players Nationally, compared to Black and Hispanic players.

I never played football.  My kids never played it either.  But we all watch it.  The idea that you have to participate in a sport to be interested in watching that sport on television isn't really accurate.