MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Lennys Tap on January 26, 2020, 11:28:16 PM

Title: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 26, 2020, 11:28:16 PM
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.



Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 26, 2020, 11:42:51 PM
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

Mick Cronin isn't ready either.

He got a technical for having 6 players on the floor today.

It wasn't just a player accidentally stepping on the court either. 6 players were out on the court playing at the same time. UCLA got crushed by the way.

It kinda makes Wojos mistake look insignificant.

The funniest thing is that after the loss to Butler, some scoopers were putting his name forward as a replacement for Wojo. UCLA is 10-10 in a weaker conference by the way.

Karmic timing at its best.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 26, 2020, 11:59:13 PM
Mick Cronin isn't ready either.

He got a technical for having 6 players on the floor today.

It wasn't just a player accidentally stepping on the court either. 6 players were out on the court playing at the same time. UCLA got crushed by the way.

It kinda makes Wojos mistake look insignificant.

The funniest thing is that after the loss to Butler, some scoopers were putting his name forward as a replacement for Wojo. UCLA is 10-10 in a weaker conference by the way.

Leaders are capable of all kinds of stupid mistakes. I don’t know the particulars of the Cronin blunder, but please explain how they mitigate against Wojo being so discombobulated that he didn’t know the score with 20 seconds left in a game in which there was a full timeout taken 20 seconds earlier and after which there were zero points scored? That’s inexcusable. I’ve seen players get confused in that situation (though very rarely) but in the literally thousands of games I’ve watched I’ve never seen a coach so flummoxed. Wojo’s an all timer, a’ina?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 27, 2020, 12:07:15 AM
Leaders are capable of all kinds of stupid mistakes. I don’t know the particulars of the Cronin blunder, but please explain how they mitigate against Wojo being so discombobulated that he didn’t know the score with 20 seconds left in a game in which there was a full timeout taken 20 seconds earlier and after which there were zero points scored? That’s inexcusable. I’ve seen players get confused in that situation (though very rarely) but in the literally thousands of games I’ve watched I’ve never seen a coach so flummoxed. Wojo’s an all timer, a’ina?

Markus not being Markus was more important than anything Wojo did or didn't do. Just like Kamar was more important than anything Lavall Jordan did or didn't do. Waaaaay to much focus is put on coaches IMHO
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 27, 2020, 12:20:14 AM
Markus not being Markus was more important than anything Wojo did or didn't do. Just like Kamar was more important than anything Lavall Jordan did or didn't do. Waaaaay to much focus is put on coaches IMHO

If Wojo is unimportant why is MU paying him almost 2.3 million? And if 2.3 million doesn’t get you a coach who can make in game adjustments or control his locker room shouldn’t it at least be enough to get you a guy who can keep track of the score?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 27, 2020, 01:01:52 AM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/Rhhr8D5mKSX7O/giphy.gif?cid=4d1e4f29a2356940c8e9e1c92f53e7b0bb1dc402746975c2&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 27, 2020, 01:18:26 AM
If Wojo is unimportant why is MU paying him almost 2.3 million? And if 2.3 million doesn’t get you a coach who can make in game adjustments or control his locker room shouldn’t it at least be enough to get you a guy who can keep track of the score?

Not unimportant just not more important than star players. I'll take Michael Jordan over Phil Jackson any day of the week

I think Wojo has earned most of his pay with  his recruiting. Marquette has had a fairly steady stream of entertaining players during his tenure. It seems like he's going to continue that tradition next season. He's also developed several players who have given me hope that he's more than just a recruiter. Sacar, Theo, and Brendan, are great examples, and Markus has excelled in Wojos system. Jamal is even showing some things this year, and Symir seems like he's going to be a good one down the road.

If Wojo lands Mane he will have more than earned his pay.

At this point all Wojo has to do is win in the tournament and the program should be back to where it was when he started the rebuild.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: NorthernDancerColt on January 27, 2020, 01:25:49 AM
Markus not being Markus was more important than anything Wojo did or didn't do. Just like Kamar was more important than anything Lavall Jordan did or didn't do. Waaaaay to much focus is put on coaches IMHO

Very well-said. As people here know, I have been solidly in Wojo’s corner. However, I was incredulous at the  foul gaffe. Watching the game with my UNLV 1990 Champion buddy, he quickly put things in perspective for me. “You’d be surprised. In the heat of battle, there’s a million things going through a coach’s head.”  He went on to say that Jerry Tarkanian had it happen to him a couple times in years when he didn’t just have to roll out the basketballs to get a win.  As has been stated, it’s not why we lost. My buddy and I did agree that just as we have “Markused” so many opponents, this night we just got “Kamared”. Superstars take over home games often. It’s what they do. My buddy knows college hoops. He said the Big East is “hands down the best conference” and that these games are going to serve us well in March.

Wojo has forgotten more about hoops than any of us armchair coaches will ever know. I get it that he’s supposed to, as the $2 Million head of a proud program. Butler was simply not gonna lose another consecutive game, and their star torched us when it mattered most. We could’ve doubled that star and watched other guys beat us. Normally after making that 3 to get the game to OT anyone would feel a huge momentum surge in MU’s favor. Neither me nor my buddy felt it, and you just got the sense Butler would will themselves to victory.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: The Hamberdler on January 27, 2020, 01:31:24 AM
Do we need a new thread for this crybaby stuff after every loss or can we possibly have a single crybaby thread? Good grief. Rub some dirt on it & move on.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 27, 2020, 05:51:08 AM
Mick Cronin isn't ready either.

He got a technical for having 6 players on the floor today.

It wasn't just a player accidentally stepping on the court either. 6 players were out on the court playing at the same time. UCLA got crushed by the way.

It kinda makes Wojos mistake look insignificant.

The funniest thing is that after the loss to Butler, some scoopers were putting his name forward as a replacement for Wojo. UCLA is 10-10 in a weaker conference by the way.

Karmic timing at its best.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: mu_hilltopper on January 27, 2020, 08:33:52 AM
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Butler was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Butler has ball, scores
6:23 - Butler has ball, scores
5:42 - Butler has ball, scores
5:00 - Butler has ball, scores
4:28 - Butler has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Butler has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Butler has ball, scores
2:21 - Butler has ball, scores
1:29 - Butler has ball, scores
0:49 - Butler has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Butler with the ball.  Butler was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Butler's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.
edit: whoops, wrong team.  Butler.



Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 27, 2020, 08:43:00 AM
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Creighton was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Creighton has ball, scores
6:23 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:42 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:00 - Creighton has ball, scores
4:28 - Creighton has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Creighton has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Creighton has ball, scores
2:21 - Creighton has ball, scores
1:29 - Creighton has ball, scores
0:49 - Creighton has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Creighton with the ball.  Creighton was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Creighton's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.

It was actually Butler, but I can see how you might have been confused - could have been almost anybody.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 27, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Creighton was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Creighton has ball, scores
6:23 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:42 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:00 - Creighton has ball, scores
4:28 - Creighton has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Creighton has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Creighton has ball, scores
2:21 - Creighton has ball, scores
1:29 - Creighton has ball, scores
0:49 - Creighton has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Creighton with the ball.  Creighton was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Creighton's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.

Did you mean Butler?

But I agree.  The foul call is what verifies Wojo is in over his head?  Really?  The foul call wasn't even the issue in the loss.  It was the inability to stop Kamar Baldwin.  That's much more of an issue than a very stupid brainfart that actually put Marquette in a position to WIN the game (keep in mind, Baldwin went 1 for 2 and we had the ball down by 1 point with 20 seconds left in the game...).
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2020, 08:47:51 AM
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 27, 2020, 08:49:28 AM
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake.

I'm not giving him credit for a strategy.  I'm saying his "unforgiveable mistake" was so unforgivable that 1) we got the ball with a chance to win the game and 2) the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is the exact result we got.  That "unforgivable mistake" is not what lost us the game at Butler.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: mu_hilltopper on January 27, 2020, 08:53:00 AM
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake. 

We agree.  Wojo screwed up, but in reverse.

He compounded his "mistake" by not coming up with a better excuse.  All he had to say was "I didn't want them to have the last shot to win." 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Eldon on January 27, 2020, 08:56:06 AM
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

And we still do!

Did you not watch how Butler bludgeoned Markus with a chair, forcing Wojo to play him concussed?  Watch the replay

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DelightfulBadBrownbutterfly-small.gif)

Clearly intentional; F2 at a bare minimum.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: genious expert on January 27, 2020, 08:58:01 AM
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Creighton was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Creighton has ball, scores
6:23 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:42 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:00 - Creighton has ball, scores
4:28 - Creighton has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Creighton has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Creighton has ball, scores
2:21 - Creighton has ball, scores
1:29 - Creighton has ball, scores
0:49 - Creighton has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Creighton with the ball.  Creighton was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Creighton's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.

Honestly, I was ok with him calling for the foul. There was no chance we were stopping Butler.
During real time what ran through my head was this: "Ok foul them, you are down either 1 or 2. Call timeout on the other end and set something up and go out on your own terms win or lose."
Similar mindset to being down 1 in football and going for 2 to get the win on the road. I will never fault a coach for doing that.

He really should have just spin-zoned it to make it sound like he did it on purpose. So simple.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2020, 08:59:39 AM
Honestly, I was ok with him calling for the foul. There was no chance we were stopping Butler.


Sorry but that's just not true.  The idea that Butler was guaranteed to score there is absurd.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 27, 2020, 09:00:06 AM
This is all pretty funny.

One could make an argument that Wojo has failed to deliver for 5 1/2 years. One could argue quite successfully that the end to last season -- with the combination of the blowing of the BEast title, the NCAA humiliation to Murray State and Hausershima -- was especially horrible. The argument that he isn't very adept at making good in-game adjustments is also legit.

But it's a simple mistake about the clock -- the kind of mistake others also have made and one that didn't even cost Marquette the game -- that "proves" he will never, ever, ever be able to win big at Marquette?

And then that mistake sets up an debate about it not really having been a mistake; the mistake was not lying about the mistake?

Gotta love Scoop!
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: panda on January 27, 2020, 09:07:13 AM
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Butler was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Butler has ball, scores
6:23 - Butler has ball, scores
5:42 - Butler has ball, scores
5:00 - Butler has ball, scores
4:28 - Butler has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Butler has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Butler has ball, scores
2:21 - Butler has ball, scores
1:29 - Butler has ball, scores
0:49 - Butler has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Butler with the ball.  Butler was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Butler's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.
edit: whoops, wrong team.  Butler.

https://kenpom.com/blog/studying-whether-to-foul-when-tied-part-3

Who knows what happens if Bailey doesn’t foul, but Bailey fouling out in OT killed any chances we had at the W. If he doesn’t commit that boneheaded foul his coach called for, Bailey never fouls out in OT.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: brewcity77 on January 27, 2020, 09:07:58 AM
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake.

I'm glad he at least admitted the mistake. It would be poor form and likely transparent to try to come up with an excuse that makes him look like he was playing 4D Chess.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: cheebs09 on January 27, 2020, 09:08:52 AM
A coach forgetting the score with 20 seconds left, and ordering something that lowers our chance at winning is pretty serious. Heck, what if we took a shot with 5 seconds left and Wojo thought we were down two. I’d have more confidence in him if he said that was his strategy and at least had some reason to justify it.

Also, who says Butler uses the full clock? Maybe they get their first good look with 8 seconds left and take it. Maybe they dribble it off their foot. To act like it was a foregone conclusion they make the shot with no time left is a leap. Plus, then Wojo just has no faith in his team to stop anyone.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 27, 2020, 09:13:04 AM
A coach forgetting the score with 20 seconds left, and ordering something that lowers our chance at winning is pretty serious. Heck, what if we took a shot with 5 seconds left and Wojo thought we were down two. I’d have more confidence in him if he said that was his strategy and at least had some reason to justify it.

Also, who says Butler uses the full clock? Maybe they get their first good look with 8 seconds left and take it. Maybe they dribble it off their foot. To act like it was a foregone conclusion they make the shot with no time left is a leap. Plus, then Wojo just has no faith in his team to stop anyone.

Forgetting the score one time is a far more forgivable mistake than having your team shoot the ball in a tie game and no shot clock with enough time that you lose the game.  Butler should be far more worried about their coaching situation if they let that happen.  You shoot the ball with about 4 seconds left so there's enough time for a putback on an offensive rebound, but not enough time for anything but a full court heave on a defensive rebound.

Again, the absolute best case scenario for Marquette when Butler got the defensive rebound was to get to overtime.  Marquette got to overtime even with this "unforgiveable mistake."  The mistake was not the reason Marquette lost the game.  Being unable to stop Kamar Baldwin was.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Daniel on January 27, 2020, 09:21:47 AM
People make mistakes in all walks of life.  Just reality.  So Wojo made a mistake.  So did Al in the old days and the court is named after him.   Al won it all after 13 years but blamed himself for the technicals in 74. 

So, let’s raise our hands who never made a mistake......  ok.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: genious expert on January 27, 2020, 09:26:26 AM

Sorry but that's just not true.  The idea that Butler was guaranteed to score there is absurd.

Of course it's not a "guarantee" that they were going to score. But look at the data hilltopper just posted. It was "more probable than not" that we were going to lose if we let them have the last shot. They scored on 21/25 possessions to end the game. Anybody with 2 eyeballs watching the game knew we weren't going to stop them there.

I'd rather take my chances down 1 or 2 with a last second shot on the road. The odds of making that shot were probably much higher than Butler missing or beating them in overtime.

And all Wojo had to do was spin-zone it that way instead of saying that he screwed up.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Markusquette on January 27, 2020, 09:31:21 AM
Forgetting the score one time is a far more forgivable mistake than having your team shoot the ball in a tie game and no shot clock with enough time that you lose the game.  Butler should be far more worried about their coaching situation if they let that happen.  You shoot the ball with about 4 seconds left so there's enough time for a putback on an offensive rebound, but not enough time for anything but a full court heave on a defensive rebound.

Again, the absolute best case scenario for Marquette when Butler got the defensive rebound was to get to overtime.  Marquette got to overtime even with this "unforgiveable mistake."  The mistake was not the reason Marquette lost the game.  Being unable to stop Kamar Baldwin was.

That's the best part about this horrific blunder. The fact that MU sealed a chance to win in overtime. Moreover this would not even be much of a talking point had MU won. Baldwin was on fire and Butler was playing well. Sometimes it's just as much about the other team playing well and not the defense being 100% responsible.

There was virtually no talk about the team's resilience to fight at the end. I'm giving them some credit for making it that close in a game that seemed to be won easily in OT. The loss was a big disappointment but the fight the team showed was fun for me. Every single person who has commented on him mixing up the score must be delusional if they think they haven't made way bigger mistakes in the workplace, in school, as a parent, whatever it is. And no, this is not a microcosm of Wojo.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: burger on January 27, 2020, 09:31:51 AM
The "real" question should be.....

How can Illinois go from a "100+" ranking to Top 25 under 2 years with their new coach????

What are we doing wrong with a "bigger.....better" everything?????
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: mu_hilltopper on January 27, 2020, 09:32:44 AM

Sorry but that's just not true.  The idea that Butler was guaranteed to score there is absurd.

Nothing in life is guaranteed.  But Butler was going to score and end that game.

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/72/72ac5424e8e2a2b3d2f220ea01c98f6322cff1c34576c54f6c543115720d6985.jpg)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 27, 2020, 09:43:56 AM
Forgetting the score one time is a far more forgivable mistake than having your team shoot the ball in a tie game and no shot clock with enough time that you lose the game.  Butler should be far more worried about their coaching situation if they let that happen.  You shoot the ball with about 4 seconds left so there's enough time for a putback on an offensive rebound, but not enough time for anything but a full court heave on a defensive rebound.



I specifically said that Wojo not knowing what the score was and ordering a dumb play be made by one of his players was NOT (ultimately anyway) the reason we lost. His deer in the headlights inability to notice/adjust to the fact that Butler was doing the same thing successfully time after time after time down the stretch and his acquiescence to Markus playing hero ball was. But not effectively adjusting in game and having a free reign star system have been hallmarks of the Wojo era from day one. And it hasn’t stopped his supporters from comparing him to Jay Wright, K and other coaching legends. But when a guy doesn’t even know what the score is at crunch time that is, to me at least, incompetence at a whole other level. And when it’s added to lack of adjustments, star system, inability to control the locker room, etc., etc., it pushed me over the ledge. I hope he can recruit well enough to overcome his sideline inadequacies, but if I’m up against him on the trail my message would be simple - “Do you want to entrust your NBA dream to a guy who doesn’t even know the score”?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 27, 2020, 09:48:32 AM
I specifically said that Wojo not knowing what the score was and ordering a dumb play be made by one of his players was NOT (ultimately anyway) the reason we lost. His deer in the headlights inability to notice/adjust to the fact that Butler was doing the same thing successfully time after time after time down the stretch and his acquiescence to Markus playing hero ball was. But not effectively adjusting in game and having a free reign star system have been hallmarks of the Wojo era from day one. And it hasn’t stopped his supporters from comparing him to Jay Wright, K and other coaching legends. But when a guy doesn’t even know what the score is at crunch time that is, to me at least, incompetence at a whole other level. And when it’s added to lack of adjustments, star system, inability to control the locker room, etc., etc., it pushed me over the ledge. I hope he can recruit well enough to overcome his sideline inadequacies, but if I’m up against him on the trail my message would be simple - “Do you want to entrust your NBA dream to a guy who doesn’t even know the score”?

Well the good thing is a guy who played over a decade in the NBA apparently has no problem entrusting his child's NBA dream to a guy who doesn't even know the score.

If that's a coach's recruiting pitch against Wojo, I'd feel very confident in where MU stands.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: 1SE on January 27, 2020, 09:51:08 AM
Nothing in life is guaranteed.  But Butler was going to score and end that game.

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/72/72ac5424e8e2a2b3d2f220ea01c98f6322cff1c34576c54f6c543115720d6985.jpg)

So do you also think Marquette should have fouled if they were up by 1?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 27, 2020, 09:52:22 AM
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake.

LOL especially since changing up the defensive look could have been a strategy to, you know, stop Butler from scoring at will
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: BobWildLoyalist on January 27, 2020, 09:56:35 AM
The excuses from Wojo backers are sickening. You're lying to yourself. The guy needs to go. He's a horrible coach, we're paying him $2million+ to coach. College basketball is big business and Wojo isn't earning his money. He's a professional and should be treated like one. There is no accountability.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 27, 2020, 09:58:33 AM
Well the good thing is a guy who played over a decade in the NBA apparently has no problem entrusting his child's NBA dream to a guy who doesn't even know the score.

If that's a coach's recruiting pitch against Wojo, I'd feel very confident in where MU stands.

Bailey made his choice a long time ago. Who knows if he would make the same choice today?

Regardless, most of the time players, not coaches, win or lose games. If we keep getting enough good ones we’ll win our share. But when things are equal (or close to it) I don’t see Wojo ever being a guy who gives us an edge, a guy who puts us in a better position to win than the other guy.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 27, 2020, 10:07:25 AM
Lenny:

To the best of my knowledge, no Scooper has "compared" Wojo to Wright or K. Some of us merely have pointed out that it also took those HoF-caliber coaches time as college coaches to win big.

Meanwhile, others have pointed out that some coaches have not needed that amount of time. Indeed, burger is the latest to have done so, just a few posts before this one. It's simply two sides of an argument, both using available facts.

I don't recall a single Scooper saying, "Jay Wright didn't win an NCAA tournament game until his 11th season as a Division I head coach, therefore Wojo is as good a coach as, or better then, Jay Wright."

Nojos, however, HAVE compared Wojo to both Deane and Dukiet. Their arguments have been specious at best, dishonest at worst.

As for opposing coaches using Wojo's brain-fart as negative recruiting ... really?

Many of us -- including me, who had been strongly Projo -- were extremely concerned about the potential negative effect Hausershima would have on recruiting. I thought it was a very legitimate concern. "He couldn't even keep two Wisconsin kids happy, two kids who had major roles on his team. You're gonna let your son play for him? Kids love our program and we don't have a big transfer problem like he does." THAT was a basis for negative recruiting.

Instead, Wojo went out and put together a top-10 recruiting class, with each of these kids -- including a McDonald's AA -- citing the coaching staff, the players' happiness and the family atmosphere as among the reasons they chose Marquette.

So those of us who were worried are happy to say that our concerns ended up being unnecessary.

But now an in-game brain-fart is gonna cost us good recruits? C'mon, Lenny, you're better than that.

He made a mistake. As I and most other "leaning Projos" have acknowledged, it was a bad mistake. But let's not make it into something bigger than it is, some kind of sign that it proves he will never build a winning program at Marquette.

Letting Baldwin score from the same spot 800 times is much worse to me. IMHO, that won't cost us any recruits, either.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: g0lden3agle on January 27, 2020, 10:14:11 AM
I'm not giving him credit for a strategy.  I'm saying his "unforgiveable mistake" was so unforgivable that 1) we got the ball with a chance to win the game and 2) the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is the exact result we got.  That "unforgivable mistake" is not what lost us the game at Butler.

Can you clarify #2?  Wouldn't the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is an outright stop, wherein we get the ball back tied, and worst case scenario we go to OT if we miss the last shot?

UPDATE: I just went back to the play by play and had forgotten that there was <30seconds left on the game clock.  Disregard this question, other than maybe quibbling over whether it's better to take the strategy that almost guarantees you are losing vs. taking the strategy that aims for a good possession solidifying the tie.  "Quibbling" reinforces the fact that the mistake wasn't as "unforgivable" as people are making it out to be.  HUGE? Yes.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: NCMUFan on January 27, 2020, 10:17:12 AM
Markus not being Markus.  Hmm, shouldn't a coach realize that and adjust appropriately?  I like Wojo and think he has a number of positives.  But some items are tough to watch as a fan.  Especially on such a well played game by the rest of the team.
Some games we wouldn't have won without Markus, but this game, just having Markus on the court and not having him touch the ball would of probably provided us the victory.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 27, 2020, 10:18:14 AM
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

Sir Bernstein,

Is that meat gravy on your shirt?

There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades. Unfortunately, Marquette is learning why that was.

The fundamental difference between a KO, Crean or Buzz and Wojo is that the former three are sublimely intelligent. Wojo sits decidedly lower on the Stanford-Binet scale.

The shell shocked look on his face towards the end of games is telling. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 27, 2020, 10:18:47 AM
Can you clarify #2?  Wouldn't the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is an outright stop, wherein we get the ball back tied, and worst case scenario we go to OT if we miss the last shot?

There is absolutely no chance that Butler does anything other than have Kamar Baldwin stand near the center court line with the ball until about 8-10 seconds left and then runs the pick and roll they scored on over and over again down the stretch, getting a shot off around the 4 second mark.  If Baldwin happened to miss (he hadn't been) and Marquette does rebound the ball, they do so with, at best, 2 seconds left.  So sure, Marquette could've got a stop and hit an 88 foot shot to win the game I guess.  But that's an absolute pipe dream scenario.  It just isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM
Keefe

Love it!!
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 27, 2020, 10:48:05 AM


The best part of all of this, is that Wojo has been just bad enough not to have been offered another gig, and just good enough not to be fired.

Marquette gets to benefit from his top recruiting class and the prime years of his coaching career if he stays.

It couldn't have worked out any better.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: g0lden3agle on January 27, 2020, 11:10:29 AM
There is absolutely no chance that Butler does anything other than have Kamar Baldwin stand near the center court line with the ball until about 8-10 seconds left and then runs the pick and roll they scored on over and over again down the stretch, getting a shot off around the 4 second mark.  If Baldwin happened to miss (he hadn't been) and Marquette does rebound the ball, they do so with, at best, 2 seconds left.  So sure, Marquette could've got a stop and hit an 88 foot shot to win the game I guess.  But that's an absolute pipe dream scenario.  It just isn't going to happen.

Yep I had corrected my question while you were responding.  For some reason I thought there was more than 30 seconds left on the shot clock but I was mistaken.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Markusquette on January 27, 2020, 11:13:41 AM
Markus not being Markus.  Hmm, shouldn't a coach realize that and adjust appropriately?  I like Wojo and think he has a number of positives.  But some items are tough to watch as a fan.  Especially on such a well played game by the rest of the team.
Some games we wouldn't have won without Markus, but this game, just having Markus on the court and not having him touch the ball would of probably provided us the victory.

Sure Markus was cold, tired and banged up. Sucked to see things unfold that way. It was nice to see Koby given the ball to take the last shot in regulation to send the game to OT. I'd like to read the comments on Wojo's decision to let him do that had he gone down court and bricked the shot. A player that's consistently received negativity here for his questionable decision-making.

That's a game where the team needs all of the above. Markus hitting his shots and the supporting cast putting their work in. 37 attempts between Anim, Bailey and Koby. Would taking 6 of Markus' final attempts and given them to the other players make the difference? Who knows.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 27, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades.

Is 15 years "almost two decades," Crash? I guess, if one really rounds up.

So I guess Tom Izzo's 16 years as an assistant at Northern Michigan and Michigan State also were "almost two decades welded to the bench."

Bruce Weber was an assistant for 18 years, Rick Majerus 12 years, Roy Williams 10 years, Jay Wright 10 years, Mark Few 9 years, Tubby Smith 12 years, Denny Crum 9 years, etc.

Many reasons to rag on Wojo, and I've done a little of it myself. This seems a silly one.

And again, I am NOT comparing Wojo to any of those mentioned, or claiming he is or ever will be a better coach than Izzo, Majerus, etc.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 27, 2020, 11:34:53 AM
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 27, 2020, 11:40:15 AM
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

How many coaches start as a full time assistant at the age of 23?  How many assistants are paid more than a majority of D1 head coaches?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: rocky_warrior on January 27, 2020, 11:43:27 AM
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

Oh Yay! The new talking point is in!  "Guys, this week we're gonna unleash 'Glued to the bench as an assistant'.  That'll show 'em"
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on January 27, 2020, 11:49:07 AM
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.
Yep.  He was working at the pinnacle of college hoops for the best coach of all time.  Why leave that?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 27, 2020, 11:59:58 AM
rocky

Would an Arby's coupon reference make you happy?

ATL MU Warrior

Why leave? Maybe a million dollar a year raise and the advancement in his chosen career.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on January 27, 2020, 12:05:30 PM
rocky

Would an Arby's coupon reference make you happy?

ATL MU Warrior

Why leave? Maybe a million dollar a year raise and the advancement in his chosen career.
No kidding.  You seemed to be implying that the reason he didn't leave for 15 years was that he wasn't any good.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 27, 2020, 12:07:03 PM
rocky

Would an Arby's coupon reference make you happy?

ATL MU Warrior

Why leave? Maybe a million dollar a year raise and the advancement in his chosen career.

Maybe he was just waiting for the right offer......

From what I hear, Marquette is a pretty sweet gig.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 27, 2020, 12:08:32 PM
manesworld

Just curious, what was Wojo's salary at Duke the last couple of years?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: willie warrior on January 27, 2020, 01:12:57 PM
Amazing what the spin meisters and Wojo excuse makers come up with. The fact that Butler was ubstoppable near the end further pins the loss directly on Wojo. What defensive adjustments did Wojo make? All the players are his. Markus flubbing and missing shots are Wojos responsibility. "He has the ultimate green light" Wojo is a terrible bench coach. He needs more assistants to help him.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: hairy worthen on January 27, 2020, 01:31:03 PM
Amazing what the spin meisters and Wojo excuse makers come up with. The fact that Butler was ubstoppable near the end further pins the loss directly on Wojo. What defensive adjustments did Wojo make? All the players are his. Markus flubbing and missing shots are Wojos responsibility. "He has the ultimate green light" Wojo is a terrible bench coach. He needs more assistants to help him.
Exactly right on the defensive adjustment Willie. Try anything different to break his groove, Wojo's solution was to concede that he was going to score so work around that.

Like I said the team did play well, but there were definitely mistakes that were made
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: TAMU Garcia on January 27, 2020, 01:49:11 PM
The defense doesn't bother me much. Baldwin was settling for long 2s, the most inefficient shot in basketball. Most times a player will regress to the mean and start missing, Baldwin didn't.

What bothered me more was Markus deciding that the last two minutes was a 1 on 1 match with Baldwin. He's done it before and the coaches need to anticipate his tendencies and coach him out of it.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: NorthernDancerColt on January 27, 2020, 01:52:51 PM
Sir Bernstein,

Is that meat gravy on your shirt?

There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades. Unfortunately, Marquette is learning why that was.

The fundamental difference between a KO, Crean or Buzz and Wojo is that the former three are sublimely intelligent. Wojo sits decidedly lower on the Stanford-Binet scale.

The shell shocked look on his face towards the end of games is telling.

And the A-10 Gatling gun went “BBBRRRRRRRRRRT”

Or did it go “Bert” ?


Talked to an F16 pilot the other day, and when I told him how the A10 is the most awesome plane in the history of our military, he said “yeah but it’s soooo slow it has a bird strike problem...in the tail.” I’m like “whatever. For close-support operations and sheer value to ground troops, it blows your fancy Mach-whatever away.”

To use an analogy, I would say Wojo is A10 (a meat and potatoes Coach) to others’ F16 drizzle. The dude is a smart guy who made a mistake. Let it be.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 27, 2020, 02:02:15 PM
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

Goose:

That's ridiculous. With all due respect.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Marcus92 on January 27, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
Goose:

That's ridiculous. With all due respect.

For the record, 18 of the head coaches at schools currently ranked in the KenPom Top 25 spent at least 10 seasons as a college or NBA assistant before getting their first Division I college head coaching job. This doesn't include any time spent coaching at the high school or community college level.

10 years
Jay Wright, Matt Painter, Chris Mack, Scott Drew, Kevin Willard, Chris Holtmann, Pat Chambers

11 years
Mark Few, Sean Miller, Fran McCaffery, Mark Turgeon

12 years
Tad Boyle

13 years
Anthony Grant, Brian Dutcher, LaVall Jordan

15 years
Leonard Hamilton

16 years
Tom Izzo

17 years
Brad Underwood

The Top 25 head coaches with less than 10 years of experience as a college assistant are Mike Krzyzewski (1 year), Kelvin Sampson (2 years), Bob Huggins (3 years), Dana Altman (5 years), Mark Pope (6 years), John Calipari (6 years) and Bill Self (8 years).

Questioning Wojo's resume is one of the weakest possible criticisms you could make, IMO.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 27, 2020, 03:06:24 PM
I specifically said that Wojo not knowing what the score was and ordering a dumb play be made by one of his players was NOT (ultimately anyway) the reason we lost. His deer in the headlights inability to notice/adjust to the fact that Butler was doing the same thing successfully time after time after time down the stretch and his acquiescence to Markus playing hero ball was. But not effectively adjusting in game and having a free reign star system have been hallmarks of the Wojo era from day one. And it hasn’t stopped his supporters from comparing him to Jay Wright, K and other coaching legends. But when a guy doesn’t even know what the score is at crunch time that is, to me at least, incompetence at a whole other level. And when it’s added to lack of adjustments, star system, inability to control the locker room, etc., etc., it pushed me over the ledge. I hope he can recruit well enough to overcome his sideline inadequacies, but if I’m up against him on the trail my message would be simple - “Do you want to entrust your NBA dream to a guy who doesn’t even know the score”?

This entire post is fair and truthful.  Some may not like the content, as it is an indictment of our coach, yet there does need to be an acceptance of this objective criticism.

Mistakes such as forgetting the score at crunch time would be more easily forgiven, IF the bolded weren't also part of the equation and lack of March success.

Herman Cain called it awhile back when he hypothesized that Wojo would likely perform just well enough to keep his job, but not exceptionally enough to have other top programs want to hire him on as head coach.

It's all right in front of Wojo.  If he can get this team to finish out strong, have a good showing in Big East tournamant (reach semi-finals), and get just 1 win in NCAA - think the criticism would subside quite a bit.  Should he fail, and the team finish poorly down the stretch, the heat on the seat is definitely going to get turned up by a majority of the fanbase.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 27, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
Marcus

I never questioned Wojo's resume. That has never been mentioned by me. FYI--Most of the guys you noted remember the Al era, any young guys? How long was KO, Crean or Buzz an assistant and what age did they get hired for first HC job?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: jesmu84 on January 27, 2020, 03:18:32 PM
Marcus

I never questioned Wojo's resume. That has never been mentioned by me. FYI--Most of the guys you noted remember the Al era, any young guys? How long was KO, Crean or Buzz an assistant and what age did they get hired for first HC job?

You didn't?

At the least, you implied his resume was an indication that he was not HC material.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Marcus92 on January 27, 2020, 03:30:04 PM
I limited this review to head coaches at schools currently in the KenPom Top 25 -- which happens to include a lot of long-term head coaches. Thought that was fair; if the goal is for Marquette to reach Top 25 status again, compare Wojo to head coaches at that level.

Kevin O'Neill was a college assistant for 6 seasons -- plus another 4 years at the high school, community college and Division II level -- before becoming head coach of the Marquette men's basketball program at the age of 32.

Tom Crean was a college assistant for 12 years before becoming MU's head coach at the age of 33.

Buzz Williams was a college assistant for 12 years before becoming the head coach at New Orleans. He was 34 at the time.

Steve Wojciechowski was a college assistant for 15 years before becoming MU's head coach at the age of 38.

Not much of a difference, if you ask me.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Marcus92 on January 27, 2020, 03:31:17 PM
At this point, I'd say Wojo's resume is pretty much irrelevant anyway. He's got 5 seasons as a head coach under his belt and should be able to stand on his record.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: lawdog77 on January 27, 2020, 03:34:07 PM
The defense doesn't bother me much. Baldwin was settling for long 2s, the most inefficient shot in basketball. Most times a player will regress to the mean and start missing, Baldwin didn't.

What bothered me more was Markus deciding that the last two minutes was a 1 on 1 match with Baldwin. He's done it before and the coaches need to anticipate his tendencies and coach him out of it.
my argument would be is that shot is Kamar's shot. He did regress to the mean by making all of those. He ended up 10 for 25. Change the defense. Either get the ball out of his hands, or doible off the screen, or zone. Like I said before, I hope it is a teaching moment. Same with markus.  We dont k ow what wojo said to him after or in film session. Hopefully we see improvement by both.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 27, 2020, 03:46:29 PM
my argument would be is that shot is Kamar's shot. He did regress to the mean by making all of those. He ended up 10 for 25. Change the defense. Either get the ball out of his hands, or doible off the screen, or zone. Like I said before, I hope it is a teaching moment. Same with markus.  We dont k ow what wojo said to him after or in film session. Hopefully we see improvement by both.

I doubt Wojo will.

I think Kamar was taking the shots Wojos wanted him to. He just kept making them, and Markus wasn't answering with a 3.

Just like some coaches are okay with letting Markus try to beat them from deep. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

There were a million ways Butler coulda, shoulda lost that game. They found the one way to win.

Endgame.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Eldon on January 27, 2020, 03:51:36 PM
The defense doesn't bother me much. Baldwin was settling for long 2s, the most inefficient shot in basketball. Most times a player will regress to the mean and start missing, Baldwin didn't.

What bothered me more was Markus deciding that the last two minutes was a 1 on 1 match with Baldwin. He's done it before and the coaches need to anticipate his tendencies and coach him out of it.

Second paragraph is spot on.

There's a difference between 'green light' and "emerald city," as Lavin said after the game.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 27, 2020, 04:34:17 PM
I doubt Wojo will.

I think Kamar was taking the shots Wojos wanted him to. He just kept making them, and Markus wasn't answering with a 3.

Just like some coaches are okay with letting Markus try to beat them from deep. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

There were a million ways Butler coulda, shoulda lost that game. They found the one way to win.

Endgame.

Morons?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 27, 2020, 05:10:40 PM
Morons?

Nope, just coaches playing the percentages.

Although I agree, with as many times as Markus has torched opposing teams there must be a lot of moron coaches out there by some peoples logic.

Or maybe sometimes good defense gets trumped by better offense.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 27, 2020, 06:53:38 PM
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

This is wholly inaccurate.  Mike Hopkins was an assistant at Syracuse for 20 years, he is now at Washington as of 2017.  Just one example.



Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 27, 2020, 06:58:26 PM
Cheeks

Of course it happens, just less and less often.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WarriorFan on January 27, 2020, 07:11:49 PM
The time and score thing is an admitted mistake.  Horrible, but at least admitted.

Not changing the defense on Baldwin was a far greater mistake that doesn't even seem to be understood or even acknowledged.

Every good player has his move to his spot for his shot, and in that spot with that shot, they will make a very high percentage.  We gave a very good player his favorite move to his favorite spot about 15 times... in a row.  Reminds me of the definition of insanity.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 27, 2020, 09:35:13 PM
And the A-10 Gatling gun went “BBBRRRRRRRRRRT”

Or did it go “Bert” ?


Talked to an F16 pilot the other day, and when I told him how the A10 is the most awesome plane in the history of our military, he said “yeah but it’s soooo slow it has a bird strike problem...in the tail.” I’m like “whatever. For close-support operations and sheer value to ground troops, it blows your fancy Mach-whatever away.”

To use an analogy, I would say Wojo is A10 (a meat and potatoes Coach) to others’ F16 drizzle. The dude is a smart guy who made a mistake. Let it be.

I had the privilege to fly both airframes. And any comparison is Ginger vs Mary Ann.

I flew the CJ variant of the 16 which is the Wild Weasel mission of Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD.) In The Storm, Wild Weasels were first in over Iraq, clearing the way for the main strike package. Weasels eliminated Iraq's air defense system within the first hour of combat operations.

In terms of CAS, the finest purpose-built airframe is the Hog. Like its namesake, the P 47 Jug, the Hog is brutally effective at applying overwhelming fire power with precision to support ground forces in contact.

Comparing Wojo to The Warthog is a stretch: The A 10 is the very best in the history of air power at what it does. Wojo has not come anywhere near that level of acclaim, notoriety, and success.

As Marines and Army troops in contact radio: "Go Ugly Early!"   
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 27, 2020, 11:31:32 PM
Goose:

You and I agree on a lot of stuff and we have a good relationship. You're wrong on this one but it appears you're just a little too stubborn and dug-in to admit it. That's cool. It happens to all of us sometimes.

As I said earlier, there are many, many, MANY reasons to criticize Wojo, and I have used some of them myself. Criticizing him for using his time as an assistant coach, learning under the winningest coach in history and waiting for what he felt was his "right" opportunity ... that's just silly. It smacks of looking for something - anything! - to nitpick about.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 12:21:13 AM
Goose:

You and I agree on a lot of stuff and we have a good relationship. You're wrong on this one but it appears you're just a little too stubborn and dug-in to admit it. That's cool. It happens to all of us sometimes.

As I said earlier, there are many, many, MANY reasons to criticize Wojo, and I have used some of them myself. Criticizing him for using his time as an assistant coach, learning under the winningest coach in history and waiting for what he felt was his "right" opportunity ... that's just silly. It smacks of looking for something - anything! - to nitpick about.

Mike

SI ran an article in the immediate aftermath of Wojo's hiring. The key point is that K's other assistants had decidedly mixed results as head coaches but that Wojo was set up for success at MU.

Do you feel Wojo delivered on that promise?



https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 28, 2020, 09:01:30 AM
Mike

SI ran an article in the immediate aftermath of Wojo's hiring. The key point is that K's other assistants had decidedly mixed results as head coaches but that Wojo was set up for success at MU.

Do you feel Wojo delivered on that promise?



https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

I think Wojo gets an Incomplete, Crash. Like some others, I'm concerned that he might never truly deliver, but I'm more patient and optimistic than many.

But this shifting of your goalposts has nothing to do with whether his being on K's bench for more than a decade "proved" something about his ability to be a head coach. All one has to do is take a look at the long list of outstanding coaches who spent double-digit years as an assistant to see that it's silly to try to use that as a mark against Wojo.

One might as well say, "His big cup of ice water proves that he'll never be a good coach."
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 09:06:01 AM
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Marcus92 on January 28, 2020, 09:33:09 AM
One might as well say, "His big cup of ice water proves that he'll never be a good coach."

You might be onto something. Obviously, anyone who drinks that much water must sweat a lot. Ah-ha, you see? It's so obvious!!! There's only one possible conclusion: Wojo is nervous and lacks the confidence to make tough decisions in big games.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wildbillsb on January 28, 2020, 09:41:06 AM
You might be onto something. Obviously, anyone who drinks that much water must sweat a lot. Ah-ha, you see? It's so obvious!!! There's only one possible conclusion: Wojo is nervous and lacks the confidence to make tough decisions in big games.

LOL!
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 09:54:30 AM
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: tower912 on January 28, 2020, 10:09:48 AM
Wojo has one hole in his time at Marquette.  NCAA success.   When this season is over he will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   He will have made the tourney 3 of the last 4 years.   The year he didn't, he won multiple games in the NIT.    He has recruited high character players, kept MU out of the papers for negative off court activities and has a top 10 class coming in. 
   But, the difference between perceived success and failure is post season record.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 28, 2020, 10:25:23 AM
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.

Agreed. And the one place he worked he played at, and he played for that coach he worked for. That makes the experience even more narrow. And he was a bit of a legend there so had a halo / less accountability than a run of the mill assistant (however small that might be). And that particular place is a bit of a unicorn, with a talent level nearly unrivaled by any other program in the 15 years he was there, making the experience was even less applicable/transferable to a school outside the blue blood group.

So the learning curve is bound to be longer. I just hope he gets himself further up that curve ASAP so Markus can get at least one tourney win. And that he doesn't then take all that he has learned at MU and apply that diversified experience elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.

Jim Boeheim and Phil Martelli.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 10:28:56 AM
Tower

Take out the first year and he is barely .500 winning in the BE. That is not that impressive. Big hole in my book.

Fluff

Exactly, if Wojo had worked the ranks at different gigs over 15 years that is different story. Learning how multiple programs work over 15 years is far different than being a guy carrying Coach K's water bottle.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 28, 2020, 10:31:09 AM
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to.

Yes - Which highlights the fact that the Marquette job/program at the time of his arrival was very attractive.  The article linked by Keefe spells it out quite well.  One sentence particularly gave me a laugh as the author of the article called it like it was:

"Wojciechowski will have to avoid talent attrition; otherwise, the son of a longshoreman, who still keeps his father's hard hat in his house, has zero building or rebuilding to do."

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

Definitely nice that some of our passionate fanbase has been very patient and forgiving to balance out those of us who became restless, early on.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: 79Warrior on January 28, 2020, 10:34:12 AM
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to.

He chose not to or was never offered? I personally do not know of a program that actually offered him the gig and he said no thanks.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: willie warrior on January 28, 2020, 10:36:59 AM
Wojo has one hole in his time at Marquette.  NCAA success.   When this season is over he will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   He will have made the tourney 3 of the last 4 years.   The year he didn't, he won multiple games in the NIT.    He has recruited high character players, kept MU out of the papers for negative off court activities and has a top 10 class coming in. 
   But, the difference between perceived success and failure is post season record.
Hosannas for Wojo
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 28, 2020, 10:37:25 AM
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.

Weber, too. He was Keady's assistant even longer than Wojo was K's assistant. Some don't like Weber because he hasn't been a consistently good recruiter, but he got Southern Illinois to the Sweet 16, brought Illinois within a few points of a national title, and got Kansas State to the Elite 8. All after spending 18 years sitting next to Keady on Purdue's bench.

Of course, one could argue that Wojo would have been well served to have spent a few years at a school like Southern Illinois, learning how to be a head coach, before taking a P6 job.

Wojo has one hole in his time at Marquette.  NCAA success.   When this season is over he will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   He will have made the tourney 3 of the last 4 years.   The year he didn't, he won multiple games in the NIT.    He has recruited high character players, kept MU out of the papers for negative off court activities and has a top 10 class coming in. 
   But, the difference between perceived success and failure is post season record.

Agreed, tower.

Nevertheless, I do think it is fair to expect a postseason win -- or three, or more -- in 6 years as a head coach at Marquette. Each of his four predecessors did so, and in less time.

Bottom Line for me:

++ Get into the tourney, get to the Sweet 16, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will be back in full-on Projo mode.

++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain in leaning Projo mode.

++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance, and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode.

++ Fail to reach the tourney, and I'll be leaning Nojo for the first time.

Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March ... but to NEVER win in March suggests something more than simply bad luck.

Frankly, I can't name a single coach I'd consider "good" who failed to win an NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years at a major program.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 10:50:38 AM
Weber, too. He was Keady's assistant even longer than Wojo was K's assistant. Some don't like Weber because he hasn't been a consistently good recruiter, but he got Southern Illinois to the Sweet 16, brought Illinois within a few points of a national title, and got Kansas State to the Elite 8. All after spending 18 years sitting next to Keady on Purdue's bench.

Of course, one could argue that Wojo would have been well served to have spent a few years at a school like Southern Illinois, learning how to be a head coach, before taking a P6 job.

Well yeah.  That's the difference.


Jim Boeheim and Phil Martelli.

Boeheim yes.  Martelli no. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: cheebs09 on January 28, 2020, 10:54:30 AM
He chose not to or was never offered? I personally do not know of a program that actually offered him the gig and he said no thanks.

I thought when we hired him, it was said he turned down Dayton. Which really made me trust his judgement.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 28, 2020, 11:13:00 AM
Tower

Take out the first year and he is barely .500 winning in the BE. That is not that impressive. Big hole in my book.

If you take out his first year and this year (since we're less than half way through the BE season), Marquette has 39 Big East wins.  That's the fourth highest total of all Big East teams, behind Nova, Xavier, and Seton Hall.  I'd hope Marquette could eventually flip with Seton Hall and move into the top 3, but that seems about right to me.  I know some people here think this program should be winning 14+ Big East games and be within 1 game of a BE title every single year, get into the S16 every year with a shot at a FF every couple years, etc.  But realistically we're about the 3rd best program in the Big East.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 11:19:10 AM
Well yeah.  That's the difference.


Boeheim yes.  Martelli no.

Because he worked one year as a grad assistant at the D-III school where he played?
OK.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 11:23:49 AM
Because he worked one year as a grad assistant at the D-III school where he played?
OK.

Right.  That was my whole premise.  That Wojo played and coached at one school under one coach before leaving for Marquette.

So when you bring up a coach who played at a different school, under a different coach, that is outside the premise. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 28, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
Right.  That was my whole premise.  That Wojo played and coached at one school under one coach before leaving for Marquette.

So when you bring up a coach who played at a different school, under a different coach, that is outside the premise.

He played a season in Poland. So that's two coaches.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: hairy worthen on January 28, 2020, 11:40:52 AM
If you take out his first year and this year (since we're less than half way through the BE season), Marquette has 39 Big East wins.  That's the fourth highest total of all Big East teams, behind Nova, Xavier, and Seton Hall.  I'd hope Marquette could eventually flip with Seton Hall and move into the top 3, but that seems about right to me.  I know some people here think this program should be winning 14+ Big East games and be within 1 game of a BE title every single year, get into the S16 every year with a shot at a FF every couple years, etc.  But realistically we're about the 3rd best program in the Big East.
If you leave his first year in and take out last year (which ended in a disaster) his record is 35-45 not counting this season. You can cherry pick the stats any way you want. Maybe if you took out all the games they lost on Saturdays and all the games they lost wearing the baby blues, and all the games they lost by under 5 points you could really get that win total up there.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 28, 2020, 11:42:41 AM
If you leave his first year in and take out last year (which ended in a disaster) his record is 35-45 not counting this season. You can cherry pick the stats any way you want. Maybe if you took out all the games they lost on Saturdays and all the games they lost wearing the baby blues, and all the games they lost by under 5 points you could really get that win total up there.

I didn't cherry pick anything.  I looked at the years Goose referenced and didn't include the less than half season the BE has played so far this year.  If I included that I believe the results would be the same, as Seton Hall and Nova are 2 of the 3 schools with more wins than us as it is and nobody else has enough wins to pass us this year.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 11:46:37 AM
I think Wojo gets an Incomplete, Crash. Like some others, I'm concerned that he might never truly deliver, but I'm more patient and optimistic than many.

But this shifting of your goalposts has nothing to do with whether his being on K's bench for more than a decade "proved" something about his ability to be a head coach. All one has to do is take a look at the long list of outstanding coaches who spent double-digit years as an assistant to see that it's silly to try to use that as a mark against Wojo.

One might as well say, "His big cup of ice water proves that he'll never be a good coach."

I am hopeful that he can start delivering post season success which, at the end of the day, is the ultimate performance measurement.

I believe the correct term for the bolded section is, "welded to the bench."



Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 11:48:10 AM
wades

He is a .500 coach in the BE, that is a fact. Sub .500 if you count his first season.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 11:49:57 AM
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to.

Jams

Is this a fact? I know you are probably the most plugged in Scooper into the big tent of sports so you likely must have some insight the rest of us do not.

The article I posted mentioned that when Wojo did leave Duke it was for an exceptional opportunity. I have no knowledge of his being considered for anything prior to leaving for MU.

Is the "welded to the bench" narrative somehow wanting?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: hairy worthen on January 28, 2020, 11:50:15 AM
I didn't cherry pick anything.  I looked at the years Goose referenced and didn't include the less than half season the BE has played so far this year.  If I included that I believe the results would be the same, as Seton Hall and Nova are 2 of the 3 schools with more wins than us as it is and nobody else has enough wins to pass us this year.

Ok, correct, but initially tower took out the first year which still counts on his record like it or not.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 11:53:58 AM
I thought when we hired him, it was said he turned down Dayton. Which really made me trust his judgement.

You mean the Dayton Flyers who are currently ranked #7 in all the land?

I have never understood the dislike for Dayton. Personally, I wish my beloved Warriors were ranked in the Top 10 of all college basketball. Hell, I wish we were ranked.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: cheebs09 on January 28, 2020, 11:59:21 AM
You mean the Dayton Flyers who are currently ranked #7 in all the land?

I have never understood the dislike for Dayton. Personally, I wish my beloved Warriors were ranked in the Top 10 of all college basketball. Hell, I wish we were ranked.

I found an article stating he could have gone to Dayton.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/steve-wojciechowski-is-off-to-an-unbelievable-start-at-marquette/

I actually don’t mind Dayton. Just their fans.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: oldwarrior81 on January 28, 2020, 12:23:32 PM
conference records the past 5+ seasons (includes Wojo's year 1)
listed by total wins
NCAA success of current coaches:  Jay Wright 15 NCAA wins,  LaVall Jordan, Kevin Willard, Ed Cooley  1 NCAA win


80-17  Villanova, Jay Wright   15-3 in NCAA, 2 National Championships

11-14  Xavier, Travis Steele    0 NCAA appearances
47-25  Xavier, Chris Mack  5 NT wins

20-23  Butler, LaVall Jordan  1-1 in NCAA
34-20  Butler, Chris Holtmann  4-3 in NCAA

54-43  Seton Hall, Kevin Willard  1-4 in NCAA

52-46  Providence, Ed Cooley   1-4 in NCAA

47-51  Marquette, Steve Wojciechowski  0-2 in NCAA

47-51  Creighton, Greg McDermott  0-2 in NCAA

16-27  Georgetown, Patrick Ewing   0 NCAA appearances
24-30  Georgetown, John Thompson III  1-1 in NCAA

 2- 6  St. John's, Mike Anderson   first season
20-52  St. John's, Chris Mullin   0-1 in NCAA
10- 8  St. John's, Steve Lavin   0 NCAA appearances

17-62  DePaul, Dave Leitao   0 NCAA appearances
 6-12  DePaul, Oliver Purnell   0  NCAA appearances


names in purple no longer at school.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on January 28, 2020, 12:26:39 PM
I believe the correct term for the bolded section is, "welded to the bench."

I believe your correct term is an incorrect description, and is not at all a strike against him. Just as it wasn't a strike against Izzo.

Personally, I wish my beloved Warriors were ranked in the Top 10 of all college basketball.

We were ranked in the top 10 just last season, Crash. I know that doesn't count, though. Because ... Wojo.

Again, we want the same thing. You were convinced from Day 1 that he was wrong for the job. I was and continue to be optimistic, but I do have less patience now. I think my bottom line as stated earlier in the thread is fair, but everybody is entitled to his or her own view, obviously.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 28, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
conference records the past 5+ seasons (includes Wojo's year 1)
listed by total wins
NCAA success of current coaches:  Jay Wright 15 NCAA wins,  LaVall Jordan, Kevin Willard, Ed Cooley  1 NCAA win


80-17  Villanova, Jay Wright   15-3 in NCAA, 2 National Championships

11-14  Xavier, Travis Steele    0 NCAA appearances
47-25  Xavier, Chris Mack  5 NT wins

20-23  Butler, LaVall Jordan  1-1 in NCAA
34-20  Butler, Chris Holtmann  4-3 in NCAA

54-43  Seton Hall, Kevin Willard  1-4 in NCAA

52-46  Providence, Ed Cooley   1-4 in NCAA

47-51  Marquette, Steve Wojciechowski  0-2 in NCAA

47-51  Creighton, Greg McDermott  0-2 in NCAA

16-27  Georgetown, Patrick Ewing   0 NCAA appearances
24-30  Georgetown, John Thompson III  1-1 in NCAA

 2- 6  St. John's, Mike Anderson   first season
20-52  St. John's, Chris Mullin   0-1 in NCAA
10- 8  St. John's, Steve Lavin   0 NCAA appearances

17-62  DePaul, Dave Leitao   0 NCAA appearances
 6-12  DePaul, Oliver Purnell   0  NCAA appearances


names in purple no longer at school.

So we've been a bottom 5 BEast team without an NCAA win. Need to get one tourney this year minimum, and need to finish top 4. Then need to reset with the new class next year and take another step up (top 3 + at least 1 NCAA win most years).
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: #UnleashJayce on January 28, 2020, 12:46:08 PM
conference records the past 5+ seasons (includes Wojo's year 1)
listed by total wins
NCAA success of current coaches:  Jay Wright 15 NCAA wins,  LaVall Jordan, Kevin Willard, Ed Cooley  1 NCAA win


80-17  Villanova, Jay Wright   15-3 in NCAA, 2 National Championships

11-14  Xavier, Travis Steele    0 NCAA appearances
47-25  Xavier, Chris Mack  5 NT wins

20-23  Butler, LaVall Jordan  1-1 in NCAA
34-20  Butler, Chris Holtmann  4-3 in NCAA

54-43  Seton Hall, Kevin Willard  1-4 in NCAA

52-46  Providence, Ed Cooley   1-4 in NCAA

47-51  Marquette, Steve Wojciechowski  0-2 in NCAA

47-51  Creighton, Greg McDermott  0-2 in NCAA

16-27  Georgetown, Patrick Ewing   0 NCAA appearances
24-30  Georgetown, John Thompson III  1-1 in NCAA

 2- 6  St. John's, Mike Anderson   first season
20-52  St. John's, Chris Mullin   0-1 in NCAA
10- 8  St. John's, Steve Lavin   0 NCAA appearances

17-62  DePaul, Dave Leitao   0 NCAA appearances
 6-12  DePaul, Oliver Purnell   0  NCAA appearances


names in purple no longer at school.

Honestly thank god for Nova. Without them this conference would have been looked at as a joke for the past 6 years.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 12:49:26 PM
keefe

He was an assistant at Duke for fifteen years for a reason. Possibly that reason is that he was quite content staying at Duke. Most guys try and get HC as quickly as possible and he did not appear to be in a hurry. I know,  I know, I know he was just waiting for the right gig.

Actually, he got the right gig. Big paycheck, no pressure to win in March and a great boss.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 28, 2020, 12:49:42 PM
I found an article stating he could have gone to Dayton.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/steve-wojciechowski-is-off-to-an-unbelievable-start-at-marquette/

I actually don’t mind Dayton. Just their fans.

Did I read floor slapping cartoon character?  Say whaaat?

If only the “unbelievable” start and 4th tanked recruiting class materialized. Darn.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: JakeBarnes on January 28, 2020, 01:08:11 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/88IwVji.jpg)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Shooter McGavin on January 28, 2020, 01:15:34 PM
Quote
Agreed, tower.

Nevertheless, I do think it is fair to expect a postseason win -- or three, or more -- in 6 years as a head coach at Marquette. Each of his four predecessors did so, and in less time.

Bottom Line for me:

++ Get into the tourney, get to the Sweet 16, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will be back in full-on Projo mode.

++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain in leaning Projo mode.

++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance, and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode.

++ Fail to reach the tourney, and I'll be leaning Nojo for the first time.

Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March ... but to NEVER win in March suggests something more than simply bad luck.

Frankly, I can't name a single coach I'd consider "good" who failed to win an NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years at a major program.

Although I have tried numerous times, could not have said it better.  This is exactly where I’m at.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: TAMU Garcia on January 28, 2020, 01:52:20 PM
wades

He is a .500 coach in the BE, that is a fact. Sub .500 if you count his first season.

.500 in the BE is good. Not great but good. I believe good often turns into great given time and development.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 01:57:11 PM
.500 in the BE is good. Not great but good. I believe good often turns into great given time and development.

It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school? 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: BM1090 on January 28, 2020, 02:12:14 PM
It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school?

I think he's improved pretty considerably from years 1-2 through today. I think it's reasonable to assume he will continue to improve.

As to your second question I don't have time to research it, but Leonard Hamilton comes to mind. He didn't make the NCAA tournament in his first 6 years at Miami or FSU and his teams became pretty consistently in the tournament after that and have continued to improve/win some games in the tournament.

McDermott is probably my best comparison for Wojo. After this season he'll have made the NCAA tournament 6/10 times at Creighton and is 3-6 in the tournament. His teams have consistently won 20+ games and have more or less been around .500 in the BE.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: tower912 on January 28, 2020, 02:13:28 PM
Kevin Willard
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: TAMU Garcia on January 28, 2020, 02:14:34 PM
It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school?

In my experience, almost all improve. Question is how much. As for how long should it take? He's already come a long way. His first recruiting cycle (year 1-3) was bad. His second (years 4-6) looks like it will be good. Third recruiting cycle is off to a great start on paper, we'll see if it translates into on the court success.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Its DJOver on January 28, 2020, 02:14:43 PM
It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school?

Kevin Willard Conference record in his first 5 seasons; 30-60.  Kevin Willard Conference record his next 4.5 seasons; 48-31 (and counting).  I'm sure there are other examples, the same way I'm sure there are examples of coaches never "figuring it out".  Hindsight is always 20/20.

Edit; Tower beat me.

I'll add that Scott Drew made the tourney in 2 out of his first 8 seasons at Baylor (although technically 2 of 7 as they were ineligible in 04), anyone know where Baylor is ranked?

Rick Barnes went 0-3 in the tourney in 6 years at Providence, and then took another 3 years at Clemson before he won a game, so 8 years at a high major before his first tourney win.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 28, 2020, 02:16:44 PM
conference records the past 5+ seasons (includes Wojo's year 1)
listed by total wins
NCAA success of current coaches:  Jay Wright 15 NCAA wins,  LaVall Jordan, Kevin Willard, Ed Cooley  1 NCAA win


80-17  Villanova, Jay Wright   15-3 in NCAA, 2 National Championships

11-14  Xavier, Travis Steele    0 NCAA appearances
47-25  Xavier, Chris Mack  5 NT wins

20-23  Butler, LaVall Jordan  1-1 in NCAA
34-20  Butler, Chris Holtmann  4-3 in NCAA

54-43  Seton Hall, Kevin Willard  1-4 in NCAA

52-46  Providence, Ed Cooley   1-4 in NCAA

47-51  Marquette, Steve Wojciechowski  0-2 in NCAA

47-51  Creighton, Greg McDermott  0-2 in NCAA

16-27  Georgetown, Patrick Ewing   0 NCAA appearances
24-30  Georgetown, John Thompson III  1-1 in NCAA

 2- 6  St. John's, Mike Anderson   first season
20-52  St. John's, Chris Mullin   0-1 in NCAA
10- 8  St. John's, Steve Lavin   0 NCAA appearances

17-62  DePaul, Dave Leitao   0 NCAA appearances
 6-12  DePaul, Oliver Purnell   0  NCAA appearances


names in purple no longer at school.

So what this shows me is that, of current Big East basketball coaches, every coach in the conference that isn't named Jay Wright has the exact same "hole" Wojo has.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2020, 02:18:28 PM


McDermott is probably my best comparison for Wojo. After this season he'll have made the NCAA tournament 6/10 times at Creighton and is 3-6 in the tournament. His teams have consistently won 20+ games and have more or less been around .500 in the BE.

Show of hands: which Scoopers will be happy if Marquette can reach the Creighton level?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: tower912 on January 28, 2020, 02:24:55 PM
Already there.   Similar to any Big East program not named Villanova over the last 5 years.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: BM1090 on January 28, 2020, 02:28:12 PM
Show of hands: which Scoopers will be happy if Marquette can reach the Creighton level?

I think we're already there minus a tournament win which will hopefully come in 2 months.

And it's Wojo's 6th year as a head coach vs. year 26 for McDermott (20 at the D1 level).

To answer your question, I would not be happy. I expect more and think we'll get it if we're patient.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 02:30:04 PM
Lenny

Sadly, we probably are on par with Creighton.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 02:30:34 PM
It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school?

The ones who get top ten recruiting classes.

Last year, this year, and next year, should give people some idea of the kind of players Wojo is graduating to.

He has been gradually compiling rosters that are longer and more athletic.

Next years class checks all the boxes.

If Marquette lands Mane they will have five physical guards that all are about 6' 4''.  That is a sharp departure from years past.

With the limitations of his previous rosters Wojo still managed to have some success. Those limitations will be gone next year and it will be interesting to see the new look team in action
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: willie warrior on January 28, 2020, 03:05:11 PM
.500 in the BE is good. Not great but good. I believe good often turns into great given time and development.
No it is not good. It is mediocre. Yuge didderence
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 03:16:19 PM
BM1090

Your post made me sad. We have become a poor man's Creighton.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 03:21:47 PM
Lenny

Sadly, we probably are on par with Creighton.

Thought we were becoming St. Louis ....
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 28, 2020, 03:54:51 PM
wades

He is a .500 coach in the BE, that is a fact. Sub .500 if you count his first season.

I'm confused by your math.

4-14
8-10
10-8
9-9
12-6
4-4

So you originally said if you take away the first season he's a .500 coach but something isn't adding up right. It is definitely a fact that he's .500 this year, or without last year and his first year. Also that he's sub .500 overall.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: oldwarrior81 on January 28, 2020, 03:57:56 PM
if he gets a mulligan on the first year he's 43-37 in conference since
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: jesmu84 on January 28, 2020, 04:20:31 PM
You mean the Dayton Flyers who are currently ranked #7 in all the land?

I have never understood the dislike for Dayton. Personally, I wish my beloved Warriors were ranked in the Top 10 of all college basketball. Hell, I wish we were ranked.

Troll
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: jesmu84 on January 28, 2020, 04:21:49 PM
I am hopeful that he can start delivering post season success which, at the end of the day, is the ultimate performance measurement.

I believe the correct term for the bolded section is, "welded to the bench."

If Wojo had won the first round in each of his appearances, you'd be happy with him being the coach?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: jesmu84 on January 28, 2020, 04:26:31 PM
It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school?

I would say it's more relevant to ask how many coaches get their first HC job at a P6? And, of those, where are they after 6 years of HC experience?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: jesmu84 on January 28, 2020, 04:29:14 PM
BM1090

Your post made me sad. We have become a poor man's Creighton.

How do similar results in conference and tourney make us a "poor man's Creighton"?

Also, hope you don't think McDermott is a good coach. His results demonstrate otherwise by your evaluation.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Silent Verbal on January 28, 2020, 04:38:45 PM
I would say it's more relevant to ask how many coaches get their first HC job at a P6? And, of those, where are they after 6 years of HC experience?

This doesn’t matter.  If you take the Marquette job, you need to be ready to hit the ground running, regardless of prior experience.  It was Wojo’s choice to stay at Duke until the right offer came along.  He shouldn’t be cut any slack because he made the choice to stay an assistant until a P6 school came calling.

To your point about him winning one tournament game each of the times he made it, who knows how the “Nojos” would feel if that happened?  It would’ve been a start, that’s for sure.  But again, it doesn’t matter.  What we actually got were two ass kickings and now a student body that thinks he’s a cuck.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 28, 2020, 04:52:47 PM
The ones who get top ten recruiting classes.

Last year, this year, and next year, should give people some idea of the kind of players Wojo is graduating to.

He has been gradually compiling rosters that are longer and more athletic.

Next years class checks all the boxes.

If Marquette lands Mane they will have five physical guards that all are about 6' 4''.  That is a sharp departure from years past.

With the limitations of his previous rosters Wojo still managed to have some success. Those limitations will be gone next year and it will be interesting to see the new look team in action
Mods -
How much longer do we have to pretend this isn’t Chicos? It’s gotten absolutely bizarre. It’s Hoopaloop on steroids
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 04:53:06 PM
I would say it's more relevant to ask how many coaches get their first HC job at a P6? And, of those, where are they after 6 years of HC experience?

That is a significant point that many people overlook.

The situation Wojo stepped into as a first time head coach was somewhat unique.

A realigned conference, a program in turmoil, and an uncertain recruiting class were all extenuating circumstances surrounding his hiring. Maybe that's the reason I'm not surprised by the recent lack of tournament success. I expected there would be a delay in development due to the less than ideal conditions he walked into.

Enough time has passed that his adjustment period should be over and the program should expect better returns on its investment. Last years returns were mixed. This year may yet yield a decent return, and next year looks to be promising.

The program is right about where I expected it to be at this point in Wojos tenure.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 04:58:35 PM
Mods -
How much longer do we have to pretend this isn’t Chicos? It’s gotten absolutely bizarre. It’s Hoopaloop on steroids

Well considering I live in Wisconsin where it's currently 25 degrees with completely overcast skies as it approaches dusk, and Cheeks live in California where I'm sure it's much nicer and hours behind us, there's no reason for you to do anything other than accept that you're wrong.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Silent Verbal on January 28, 2020, 05:00:46 PM
Well considering I live in Wisconsin where it's currently 25 degrees with completely overcast skies as it approaches dusk, and Cheeks live in California where I'm sure it's much nicer and hours behind us, there's no reason for you to do anything other than accept that you're wrong.

“Who wants to place a bet?  I’ll take a picture outside my window in California and WhoaJoe can take one outside his in Wisconsin and we’ll post them at the same time.  Really make a lot of people on here look foolish.”
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: lawdog77 on January 28, 2020, 05:01:42 PM
Mods -
How much longer do we have to pretend this isn’t Chicos? It’s gotten absolutely bizarre. It’s Hoopaloop on steroids
the ignore button exists for a reason.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 05:10:55 PM
“Who wants to place a bet?  I’ll take a picture outside my window in California and WhoaJoe can take one outside his in Wisconsin and we’ll post them at the same time.  Really make a lot of people on here look foolish.”

I would be happy to do that if you told me how. That should really be people's first clue that I'm not Cheeks. I never post pictures or videos. Also, the way we format our responses is also quite dissimilar. For such smart people the differences should be obvious.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 28, 2020, 05:28:32 PM
That is a significant point that many people overlook.

The situation Wojo stepped into as a first time head coach was somewhat unique.

A realigned conference, a program in turmoil, and an uncertain recruiting class were all extenuating circumstances surrounding his hiring. Maybe that's the reason I'm not surprised by the recent lack of tournament success. I expected there would be a delay in development due to the less than ideal conditions he walked into.

Enough time has passed that his adjustment period should be over and the program should expect better returns on its investment. Last years returns were mixed. This year may yet yield a decent return, and next year looks to be promising.

The program is right about where I expected it to be at this point in Wojos tenure.
[/color]

Fixed.

May want to re-read this article:

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

"Wojciechowski will have to avoid talent attrition; otherwise, the son of a longshoreman, who still keeps his father's hard hat in his house, has zero building or rebuilding to do."
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 05:40:02 PM
Galway

You are correct. Six over if take out first year. I will begrudgingly give him a mulligan for first year. Thanks for correcting my math.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 28, 2020, 05:45:03 PM
Galway

You are correct. Six over if take out first year. I will begrudgingly give him a mulligan for first year. Thanks for correcting my math.

Happy to help. Hopefully we go >11-7 and it'll be one less thing to have to keep track about with or without his first year.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 05:51:02 PM
[/color]

Fixed.

May want to re-read this article:

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

"Wojciechowski will have to avoid talent attrition; otherwise, the son of a longshoreman, who still keeps his father's hard hat in his house, has zero building or rebuilding to do."

If only that article matched reality. The writer simply got it wrong.

While you seem to get all your thoughts and opinions from other people, I prefer to think for myself. Being a Wisconsin resident who has closely followed Marquette for over 40 years I trust my analysis far more than some puff piece sports columnist from who knows where.

You keep believing everything you read in the papers and on the Internet. It makes it easier to discredit your arguments and opinions.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 06:00:04 PM
Galway

I would take Mane and another stud transfer and call it a good day.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 28, 2020, 06:16:36 PM
[/color]

Fixed.

May want to re-read this article:

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

"Wojciechowski will have to avoid talent attrition; otherwise, the son of a longshoreman, who still keeps his father's hard hat in his house, has zero building or rebuilding to do."

How many different threads are you going to post an article about players who did nothing at the high major level?  We get it.  We know where you stand.  Had Wojo given max minutes to John Dawson he'd be looked at as the GOAT, someone who had the court vision and passing ability only ever rivaled by Magic Johnson.  If Wojo had given max minutes to Deonte Burton maybe it would've healed his mother's ailment and she'd still be alive to enjoy watching him play basketball to this day.  Had he given max minutes to Duane Wilson maybe Duane wouldn't have had bone spurs or whatever other ailments he had and he would've been the second coming of Dwyane Wade.  If he invested max minutes in Sandy Cohen we would've bene watching the second coming of Kevin Durant.  If only he had throw Steve Taylor in for 40 minutes a game we would've had our very own version of Giannis.  All of this on one roster!  We would've went 3 straight years without winning a game by likes than 46 points!  How could Wojo have possibly screwed that roster up?!  He couldn't possibly fail!  Just roll the ball out there and the talent will do the work for you!

Just ask the great Buzz Williams how all that talent worked out for him.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 06:30:24 PM

Manesworld, anyone that would submit a puff piece article as evidence when arguing the circumstances surrounding Wojos hiring and subsequent events has already humiliated themselves beyond anything else you or I could say.

Using a tactic like that is the sign of a lazy mind. When people start doing that it usually means they know they have already lost the argument.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
You mean the Dayton Flyers who are currently ranked #7 in all the land?

I have never understood the dislike for Dayton. Personally, I wish my beloved Warriors were ranked in the Top 10 of all college basketball. Hell, I wish we were ranked.

This being the outlier, of course. 

Last year they were 62....would we wish we were Dayton then?

The year before that they were 172.


I’ll take us over Dayton every day of the week.  It’s easy to pick an outlier year, but it is just that...an outlier.


Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 06:52:04 PM
So we've been a bottom 5 BEast team without an NCAA win. Need to get one tourney this year minimum, and need to finish top 4. Then need to reset with the new class next year and take another step up (top 3 + at least 1 NCAA win most years).


First year rebuild with a crap team he took over, new system, etc....just lame to even include it other than agenda posting.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 06:52:48 PM
It's been six years.  How long should it reasonably take?  How many coaches improve considerably after six years at a P6 type school?

You really want that answer?  I don’t think you do
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 06:53:53 PM
BM1090

Your post made me sad. We have become a poor man's Creighton.

Backed up by what data points?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 06:54:38 PM
Mods -
How much longer do we have to pretend this isn’t Chicos? It’s gotten absolutely bizarre. It’s Hoopaloop on steroids

$5000 bet....let’s go right now.   Say it, will prove you wrong but you have got to pay.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 06:55:29 PM
Cheeks

Since Wojo has been here we were an outlier for seven weeks, what is the difference? We had two months of shamrock on our shoulder and the rest not too impressive. You can stoke fires all day long and I love it. That said, we have not any more March success than a ton of programs.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 06:59:05 PM
I would be happy to do that if you told me how. That should really be people's first clue that I'm not Cheeks. I never post pictures or videos. Also, the way we format our responses is also quite dissimilar. For such smart people the differences should be obvious.

Record the local evening news from wherever you are in Wisconsin.  Post it.  I will do same.  Just pick a date so it is done about same time and the watch the heads explode.  As I also mentioned, I will be under the knife in the not to distant future and based on your posting rate you will be posting during that time...will easily be able to prove it with records just to shut some of these people up.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 07:00:32 PM
$5000 bet....let’s go right now.   Say it, will prove you wrong but you have got to pay.

Why don't you just skype with one of the scoopers you trust while I post??
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 07:07:33 PM
Why don't you just skype with one of the scoopers you trust while I post??

They will argue multitasking, unless I video Skype outside which I am happy to do.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 07:13:20 PM
Cheeks

Take it is a compliment. You are the one guy everyone believes has multiple handles. While I believe WhoaJoe is off his rocker, he has people talking, similar to your schtick.
Now, Warrior Dad I am betting on a second handle.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 07:15:29 PM
They will argue multitasking, unless I video Skype outside which I am happy to do.

I honestly think it would be the best way to shut some of them up.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 28, 2020, 07:23:59 PM
Let’s face it, at best WhoaJoe is a poor man’s Hoopaloop. My money is on WarriorDad.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 28, 2020, 07:42:01 PM
Record the local evening news from wherever you are in Wisconsin.  Post it.  I will do same.  Just pick a date so it is done about same time and the watch the heads explode.  As I also mentioned, I will be under the knife in the not to distant future and based on your posting rate you will be posting during that time...will easily be able to prove it with records just to shut some of these people up.

Why don't you just skype with one of the scoopers you trust while I post??

They will argue multitasking, unless I video Skype outside which I am happy to do.

I honestly think it would be the best way to shut some of them up.

Did this really just happen?  Holy hoopaloop.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 28, 2020, 07:47:38 PM
Wojo = Sleeping Giant
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 07:53:40 PM
Did this really just happen?  Holy hoopaloop.

A person seldom meets someone who is wrong about everything, but there is always an exception.

I guess you are it.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 28, 2020, 08:00:10 PM
Well considering I live in Wisconsin where it's currently 25 degrees with completely overcast skies as it approaches dusk, and Cheeks live in California where I'm sure it's much nicer and hours behind us, there's no reason for you to do anything other than accept that you're wrong.

Cheeks Jr. sharing passwords with daddy.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 28, 2020, 08:17:03 PM
Cheeks Jr. sharing passwords with daddy.

I'm starting to figure scoopers out.....

When they're getting owned in a discussion about Wojo or anything else they resort to childish accusations.

Now that I know that, every time it happens I can just chalk up another win.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 28, 2020, 08:18:44 PM
I'm starting to figure scoopers out.....

When they're getting owned in a discussion about Wojo or anything else they resort to childish accusations.

Now that I know that, every time it happens I can just chalk up another win.

It's okay, son. Daddy saved on the theme park tickets this time with the Disney Family pass.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: panda on January 28, 2020, 08:19:00 PM
I'm starting to figure scoopers out.....

When they're getting owned in a discussion about Wojo or anything else they resort to childish accusations.

Now that I know that, every time it happens I can just chalk up another win.

Classic cheeks. Always playing the victim....
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 28, 2020, 08:26:02 PM
Galway

I would take Mane and another stud transfer and call it a good day.

Im looking for wins first but I'd happily take that situation as well.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 08:32:15 PM
Classic cheeks. Always playing the victim....

Black hole


Tell you what, I will happily Skype with you or stream from Miami Thursday through Monday to prove you wrong just to see your dumb grin on your face and the apology that comes with it.  LOL.

You in?  Nah...of course you aren’t.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: panda on January 28, 2020, 08:37:25 PM
Black hole


Tell you what, I will happily Skype with you or stream from Miami Thursday through Monday to prove you wrong just to see your dumb grin on your face and the apology that comes with it.  LOL.

You in?  Nah...of course you aren’t.

I’m not sure what Skyping would prove, aside from the fact that you and WJ are the same poster....
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
This being the outlier, of course. 

Last year they were 62....would we wish we were Dayton then?

The year before that they were 172.


I’ll take us over Dayton every day of the week.  It’s easy to pick an outlier year, but it is just that...an outlier.

Jams,

Stop being obtuse because you are better than that.

I am merely pointing out that today Dayton is ranked #7.

Frankly, I wish we were ranked but, sadly, we are not.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 09:02:16 PM
BM1090

Your post made me sad. We have become a poor man's Creighton.

Mother Goose

Never dialogue with someone named "BM"
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 28, 2020, 09:06:26 PM
I'm starting to figure scoopers out.....

When they're getting owned in a discussion about Wojo or anything else they resort to childish accusations.

Now that I know that, every time it happens I can just chalk up another win.

Thank you for providing continued comic relief. You’re contributions are greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: rocky_warrior on January 28, 2020, 10:09:35 PM
Did this really just happen?  Holy hoopaloop.

Best thread ever...

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32791.0
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 28, 2020, 10:24:12 PM
Best thread ever...

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32791.0

Déjà Vu all over again?  Thanks for linking this thread...I’d almost forgotten how epic that thread was..
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 10:36:37 PM
I’m not sure what Skyping would prove, aside from the fact that you and WJ are the same poster....

If I skype from the Super Bowl and he is Skyping from Wisconsin at the same time...it would prove what an enormous idiot you are.  You in or not?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 10:37:22 PM
Finally having that long overdue vaginoscopy, Jams?

Something like that
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 10:38:44 PM
Jams,

Stop being obtuse because you are better than that.

I am merely pointing out that today Dayton is ranked #7.

Frankly, I wish we were ranked but, sadly, we are not.

Merely pointing out the flavor of the day doesn’t cut it....just like the lame SLU argument from a few years ago.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 28, 2020, 10:47:13 PM
Déjà Vu all over again?  Thanks for linking this thread...I’d almost forgotten how epic that thread was..

Only a few more weeks until I am in Houston....it would be rather humorous with you and I watching MU game together on the tube at a sports bar while Whoa is posting away....what sports bar we meeting at?  Buzz’s hideaway?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: BM1090 on January 28, 2020, 11:03:00 PM
Mother Goose

Never dialogue with someone named "BM"

Sorry, I'll make sure I have better initials in my next life.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 11:13:36 PM
Something like that

Think about how much more comfortable you'll be without that embarrassing itching and what not
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 28, 2020, 11:23:03 PM
Sorry, I'll make sure I have better initials in my next life.

Are there really 1089 other guys with the initials "BM" on Scoop?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 11:23:12 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/372c5a068e63e46ec948b1bee5331235/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: panda on January 29, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
If I skype from the Super Bowl and he is Skyping from Wisconsin at the same time...it would prove what an enormous idiot you are.  You in or not?

You’re the enormous idiot with multiple burners failing to convince people they are not his.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on January 29, 2020, 06:06:20 AM
You’re the enormous idiot with multiple burners failing to convince people they are not his.

Take the offer then and prove to the world you are right....which you won’t do because you don’t want to be proven wrong.  Because then your narrative is crushed.  LOL

I give Whoa a lot of credit, everyone knows why he is doing it...brilliant....I admire the humor in it and am interested as anyone else in regard to whom it is....but the parody I get. 

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.  Tip my cap to Whoa.





Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: noblewarrior on January 29, 2020, 07:53:37 AM
I am Chico’s!

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: lawdog77 on January 29, 2020, 08:03:20 AM
Whoa may not be Chicos but he definitely has a little Chicos in him. (Nh)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 29, 2020, 08:05:47 AM
Meenwhyll, Nunn is makin' a nice livin' hoopin' in da Association, aina?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: panda on January 29, 2020, 09:30:11 AM
Take the offer then and prove to the world you are right....which you won’t do because you don’t want to be proven wrong.  Because then your narrative is crushed.  LOL

I give Whoa a lot of credit, everyone knows why he is doing it...brilliant....I admire the humor in it and am interested as anyone else in regard to whom it is....but the parody I get. 

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.  Tip my cap to Whoa.

I’d rather Skype with Whoa Joe. Can you arrange that?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 29, 2020, 09:34:56 AM
Are there really 1089 other guys with the initials "BM" on Scoop?

Keefe

Posts like this were greatly missed during your scoop vacation.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Pakuni on January 29, 2020, 10:35:42 AM
Keefe

Posts like this were greatly missed during your scoop vacation.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/wYyTHMm50f4Dm/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on January 29, 2020, 10:52:21 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/wYyTHMm50f4Dm/giphy.gif)

Lol exactly.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on January 29, 2020, 11:15:07 AM
Keefe

Seeing the two previous posters response, I really missed you on here. Two perfect guys to get under their skin.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: BM1090 on January 29, 2020, 11:44:30 AM
Are there really 1089 other guys with the initials "BM" on Scoop?

At least.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 29, 2020, 12:16:14 PM
I’d rather Skype with Whoa Joe. Can you arrange that?

No he can't arrange that.

I decide who I choose to share personal information with and it sure as hell wouldn't be some angry message board denizens who have exhibited irrational behavior.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Retire0 on January 29, 2020, 12:33:32 PM
Meenwhyll, Nunn is makin' a nice livin' hoopin' in da Association, aina?

Yeah, his path certainly was not what I was expecting when he left Illinois. Good for him.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 29, 2020, 01:03:36 PM
Don't no 'bout initials, butt ders enough BM on dis board two stock a multi-billion dolla Milorganite plant, aina?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: harryp on January 29, 2020, 01:14:52 PM
Seems to me that whenever you are looking at NCAA record, you must keep in mind, that every year 1/2 of all teams invited to home 0-1.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 29, 2020, 01:14:57 PM
Keefe

Seeing the two previous posters response, I really missed you on here. Two perfect guys to get under their skin.

Mother Goose

Like a nasty Lyme Disease-spreading tick, eh?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on January 29, 2020, 01:17:08 PM
Don't no 'bout initials, butt ders enough BM on dis board two stock a multi-billion dolla Milorganite plant, aina?

Doc

Tofu produces something different than prime beef, eh?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: WarriorDad on January 29, 2020, 01:50:03 PM
Let’s face it, at best WhoaJoe is a poor man’s Hoopaloop. My money is on WarriorDad.

This place is not much fun and after a loss it is unbearable.  I prefer to go back to reading only.

Go Marquette
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: panda on January 29, 2020, 01:51:29 PM
No he can't arrange that.

I decide who I choose to share personal information with and it sure as hell wouldn't be some angry message board denizens who have exhibited irrational behavior.

Don’t speak for Cheeks!!! Lol........

I would think you’d want to clear your good name with a Skype meeting. You name the time and we can coordinate with “Cheeks” to make sure he’s posting then too.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: lawdog77 on January 29, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
Don’t speak for Cheeks!!! Lol........

I would think you’d want to clear your good name with a Skype meeting. You name the time and we can coordinate with “Cheeks” to make sure he’s posting then too.
please stop
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 07, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades. Unfortunately, Marquette is learning why that was.

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

Just read an interesting article in The Athletic about Brian Dutcher, the architect of San Diego State's undefeated team.

He was an assistant for - wait for it! - 34 freakin' years before San Diego State finally gave him a chance.

2 years as a grad assistant at Illinois ... 2 years at South Dakota State ... 9 years at Michigan ... and a whopping 18 years "welded to the San Diego State bench."

So in addition to all the other examples I and others gave, here's more "proof" that if you've been a long-time assistant you can't possibly become a good head coach.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Goose on February 07, 2020, 09:03:57 AM
82

It looks like it did not take Dutcher the mandatory five years before grading out his program.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 07, 2020, 09:25:24 AM
82

It looks like it did not take Dutcher the mandatory five years before grading out his program.

You're right about that, Goose!

He did a wonderful job proving that being a long-time assistant does not automatically mean a person isn't qualified to be a head coach. Izzo did OK, too, as did many others named earlier in this thread.

And as will Wojo, we all hope - albeit nowhere near as quickly as Dutcher, Izzo and some others that had been mentioned.

Would have been nice had Wojo been able to get there more quickly ... although it is worth noting that Dutcher has, so far, won exactly the same number of NCAA tournament games as Wojo. Maybe both will add some of those kinds of victories this coming March.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: lurch91 on February 07, 2020, 10:18:25 AM
82

It looks like it did not take Dutcher the mandatory five years before grading out his program.

I wonder how much it helped that Dutcher was already at San Diego before he took over as Head Coach.  I'm sure he had recruited many of the players as the Associate Head Coach, knew the internal politics of the University,  Athletic Department, etc.  That certainly had to be an advantage.

I'm not minimizing Dutcher's success, but so many think that every coaching change is the same.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 07, 2020, 10:39:58 AM
I wonder how much it helped that Dutcher was already at San Diego before he took over as Head Coach.  I'm sure he had recruited many of the players as the Associate Head Coach, knew the internal politics of the University,  Athletic Department, etc.  That certainly had to be an advantage.

I'm not minimizing Dutcher's success, but so many think that every coaching change is the same.

Good point. Izzo and Few had similar advantages. Of course, so did Hank and Rick, and the results weren't all that swell.

So yes, every coaching change definitely is not the same.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Eldon on February 07, 2020, 11:11:16 AM
Just read an interesting article in The Athletic about Brian Dutcher, the architect of San Diego State's undefeated team.

He was an assistant for - wait for it! - 34 freakin' years before San Diego State finally gave him a chance.

2 years as a grad assistant at Illinois ... 2 years at South Dakota State ... 9 years at Michigan ... and a whopping 18 years "welded to the San Diego State bench."

So in addition to all the other examples I and others gave, here's more "proof" that if you've been a long-time assistant you can't possibly become a good head coach.

I'll have to remember this whenever someone says "why replace Wojo with Stan?!?" 

(If Stan were such a great coach, why isn't he a head coach somewhere)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on February 07, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
82

It looks like it did not take Dutcher the mandatory five years before grading out his program.

Or maybe it is too early to judge and once all of Fischer’s guys are gone he crashes and burns.

But yes, some guys hit it out of the park from the start.  Some guys never hit it.  Some guys take a few years...Rick Majerus
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 07, 2020, 06:16:29 PM
Just read an interesting article in The Athletic about Brian Dutcher, the architect of San Diego State's undefeated team.

He was an assistant for - wait for it! - 34 freakin' years before San Diego State finally gave him a chance.

2 years as a grad assistant at Illinois ... 2 years at South Dakota State ... 9 years at Michigan ... and a whopping 18 years "welded to the San Diego State bench."

So in addition to all the other examples I and others gave, here's more "proof" that if you've been a long-time assistant you can't possibly become a good head coach.

Mike

I think Jamie already pointed this out but let's see what Dutcher does with a team he built.

The real question is whether Dutcher is the real thing or another Brian Ellerbe. Ellerbe won the Big Ten crown in his first season as Fish's replacement. He promptly fell on his face after that.

There are indeed scorch marks on Dutcher's ass flesh. Deserved? We'll see. It's only been three seasons since Fish left.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on February 07, 2020, 06:47:55 PM
Wasn’t Hopkins “the real deal” and going to “get it done?” How long was he on Syracuse’s bench for?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on February 07, 2020, 08:52:43 PM
Wasn’t Hopkins “the real deal” and going to “get it done?” How long was he on Syracuse’s bench for?

Yes. He got impatient and bolted for Washington. Now in Year 3. Done a decent job. Took over from Romar inherited a team that finished around 160. Got them to 98 year 1. 48. Year 2. And now 50 at present.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on February 07, 2020, 08:56:13 PM
I spent the last 45 minutes catching up on the last 5 pages of this thread while watching the debate.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7aYHPR0uyjHAAjC/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 07, 2020, 09:15:11 PM
Mike

I think Jamie already pointed this out but let's see what Dutcher does with a team he built.

The real question is whether Dutcher is the real thing or another Brian Ellerbe. Ellerbe won the Big Ten crown in his first season as Fish's replacement. He promptly fell on his face after that.

There are indeed scorch marks on Dutcher's ass flesh. Deserved? We'll see. It's only been three seasons since Fish left.

True. We'll see about Dutcher. I covered his daddy's final years at Minnesota way back when.

Either way, as many posts here pointed out, it's not very rare for long-time assistants to become very good head coaches.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 07, 2020, 09:29:13 PM
Yes. He got impatient and bolted for Washington. Now in Year 3. Done a decent job. Took over from Romar inherited a team that finished around 160. Got them to 98 year 1. 48. Year 2. And now 50 at present.

Tesla Man

People might not know but Hopkins is from Seattle. This was a natural fit for him and his family.

And he is doing a great job with the Huskies. He's made them competitive, recruiting well, and more importantly, reenergized the alumni.

I have friends who are boosters and they love the guy. That's any college programs most important constituency.

Nobody on Lake Washington regrets hiring Hopkins.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Boston Warrior on February 07, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
On Brian Dutcher.....

He will be fine, long term assistant to Fischer chief recruiter of fab 5, long term successful assistant... he has turned down head coaching jobs. Loyal, program oriented and his  family is very successful, grounded. He is and will continue to be a good head coach.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: wadesworld on February 07, 2020, 09:35:01 PM
Year 3, dead last by themselves in the lowly PAC 12.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 07, 2020, 09:37:09 PM
On Brian Dutcher.....

He will be fine, long term assistant to Fischer chief recruiter of fab 5, long term successful assistant... he has turned down head coaching jobs. Loyal, program oriented and his  family is very successful, grounded. He is and will continue to be a good head coach.

As a Michigan alum I know how important Dutcher was to Fish. Those two have decades of success together. I wish him nothing but continued accomplishment.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on February 07, 2020, 10:32:42 PM
Tesla Man

People might not know but Hopkins is from Seattle. This was a natural fit for him and his family.

And he is doing a great job with the Huskies. He's made them competitive, recruiting well, and more importantly, reenergized the alumni.

I have friends who are boosters and they love the guy. That's any college programs most important constituency.

Nobody on Lake Washington regrets hiring Hopkins.

Didn’t know he was from Seattle area. Will be interesting to see where the next few years go for UW and Hopkins. Sounds like he has things on good footing with important constituents.

Thanks for the scoop Keefe!
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: PointWarrior on February 07, 2020, 10:36:26 PM
2-10 in last 12 games.   Smell on lake Washington not so great...

Tesla Man

People might not know but Hopkins is from Seattle. This was a natural fit for him and his family.

And he is doing a great job with the Huskies. He's made them competitive, recruiting well, and more importantly, reenergized the alumni.

I have friends who are boosters and they love the guy. That's any college programs most important constituency.

Nobody on Lake Washington regrets hiring Hopkins.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: TAMU Garcia on February 08, 2020, 01:24:09 AM
This is all anecdotal, but it seems like rebuilding coaches who take on one and dones in the first few years don't have a lot of team success with those one and dones. Wojo, Cuonzo at Cal and Mizzou, Alford at UCLA, Shaka at Texas, Johnny Jones at LSU, Marvin Menzies at UNLV, and now possibly Hopkins at UW. I haven't done a deep dive, I'm sure there are plenty of counter examples or other explanations but maybe there is some truth to the thought that recruiting one and dones early in the rebuilding process actually can set the rebuild back.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 08, 2020, 06:22:50 AM
Yes. He got impatient and bolted for Washington. Now in Year 3. Done a decent job. Took over from Romar inherited a team that finished around 160. Got them to 98 year 1. 48. Year 2. And now 50 at present.


My impression is that he didn't get impatient as much as he got screwed.  I thought he was named coach in waiting with a plan to take over the program in a couple of years, only to have Boeheim decide he wanted to coach longer.  And as keefe said, UW was a great personal fit. 

We will see how good he is long run but he certainly has earned some additional time.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 08, 2020, 06:33:50 AM
And the other question is what is Syracuse going to do now?  They don't seem likely at this point to make the NCAAs, they have dropped off the map since joining the ACC, and their head coach is 75 years old.  They will likely promote from within, but is that going to be a long-term solution?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Retire0 on February 08, 2020, 07:32:00 AM
And the other question is what is Syracuse going to do now?  They don't seem likely at this point to make the NCAAs, they have dropped off the map since joining the ACC, and their head coach is 75 years old.  They will likely promote from within, but is that going to be a long-term solution?

The shine on Syracuse is gone. I’m guessing a MU post-Al decline. Except the MU patriarch tried to continue success by stepping down at the right time.

Northern New York is awful 9 out of 12 months, the Carrier Dome is aging poorly and no coaches wives are putting out.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on February 08, 2020, 07:43:17 AM
This is all anecdotal, but it seems like rebuilding coaches who take on one and dones in the first few years don't have a lot of team success with those one and dones. Wojo, Cuonzo at Cal and Mizzou, Alford at UCLA, Shaka at Texas, Johnny Jones at LSU, Marvin Menzies at UNLV, and now possibly Hopkins at UW. I haven't done a deep dive, I'm sure there are plenty of counter examples or other explanations but maybe there is some truth to the thought that recruiting one and dones early in the rebuilding process actually can set the rebuild back.

On the flip side, there is Will Wade, Bruce Pearl, Sean Miller...
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 08, 2020, 08:26:52 AM
2-10 in last 12 games.   Smell on lake Washington not so great...
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 08, 2020, 08:27:03 AM
2-10 in last 12 games.   Smell on lake Washington not so great...

Dave
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 08, 2020, 08:28:59 AM
2-10 in last 12 games.   Smell on lake Washington not so great...

Dave

He has a very long leash. I have that on solid authority. Hopkins will get it done.

I am on the road for 10 days. Happy Hour at Brave Horse Tavern when I get back?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 08, 2020, 08:29:13 AM
And the other question is what is Syracuse going to do now?  They don't seem likely at this point to make the NCAAs, they have dropped off the map since joining the ACC, and their head coach is 75 years old.  They will likely promote from within, but is that going to be a long-term solution?

Maybe just when Boeheim is ready to finally retire, Hopkins will have put together his second consecutive very good season at UW ... and he will be enticed to return to his long-time employer, a school in a superior league with better basketball tradition.

The shine on Syracuse is gone.

Plenty of Scoopers believe Marquette will have its pick of P6 coaches clamoring to come to Milwaukee when Wojo leaves or is fired. Not sure why the same wouldn't be true of Cuse.

Or hell, maybe Hopkins will want to really take a step up and come to MU after Wojo bolts!
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 08, 2020, 08:35:17 AM
The shine on Syracuse is gone. I’m guessing a MU post-Al decline. Except the MU patriarch tried to continue success by stepping down at the right time.

Northern New York is awful 9 out of 12 months, the Carrier Dome is aging poorly and no coaches wives are putting out.

Still one of the funniest Inside Hoops vignette's ever.

The fly in the ointment (so to speak) is that Mrs. Fine is far from fine. Frankly, I think that may have scared off more than a few recruits

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 08, 2020, 08:36:57 AM
Maybe just when Boeheim is ready to finally retire, Hopkins will have put together his second consecutive very good season at UW ... and he will be enticed to return to his long-time employer, a school in a superior league with better basketball tradition.

Plenty of Scoopers believe Marquette will have its pick of P6 coaches clamoring to come to Milwaukee when Wojo leaves or is fired. Not sure why the same wouldn't be true of Cuse.

Or hell, maybe Hopkins will want to really take a step up and come to MU after Wojo bolts!

Hopkins was on MU's list back in  '14
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 08, 2020, 08:48:24 AM
Hopkins was on MU's list back in  '14

Obviously, the situations are so different - one is at a large public school in a mediocre (at best) conference; the other is at a private school in one of the most competitive leagues - but I guess time will tell if Hopkins proves to be "better" than Wojo.

The only thing I know for certain is that Scoop would have gone absolutely apeshyte if Wojo, in Year 3 at MU, had gone 12-11 overall and 2-8 in the BEast.

If Hopkins is as good as you and others think he is, he will bounce back strongly next season. I wish him good fortune. My daughter is a Marquette fan first (of course!) but she does follow Huskies hoops a little.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: keefe on February 08, 2020, 09:05:59 AM
Obviously, the situations are so different - one is at a large public school in a mediocre (at best) conference; the other is at a private school in one of the most competitive leagues - but I guess time will tell if Hopkins proves to be "better" than Wojo.

The only thing I know for certain is that Scoop would have gone absolutely apeshyte if Wojo, in Year 3 at MU, had gone 12-11 overall and 2-8 in the BEast.

If Hopkins is as good as you and others think he is, he will bounce back strongly next season. I wish him good fortune. My daughter is a Marquette fan first (of course!) but she does follow Huskies hoops a little.

Mike

I know some big boosters who sit courtside at the Hech. They love Hopkins.

Romar could recruit but he couldn't coach. Worse, he didn't know how to manage the alumni.

Hopkins can certainly recruit and he has shown tactical proficiency but, most importantly, he is winning over the hearts and minds of the alumni. I think the jury is still out but, as Musk demonstrated, Hopkins has moved the needle vis-à-vis Romar.

Here is the dirty little secret though about the PAC 12: It's all about football.

Perhaps for another discussion, but the decline of the Pac 12 in all sports, but especially football and basketball, is staggering. They are just not competitive in any meaningful way. 

 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: LloydsLegs on February 08, 2020, 09:15:22 AM
On the flip side, there is Will Wade, Bruce Pearl, Sean Miller...

On the “jury is out” side, Penny at Memphis...
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 08, 2020, 09:41:50 AM
The jury is out on a lot of coaches, including Wojo.

Some who think Wojo is an absolute loser defend a coach who, in Year 3 of his program, is in dead last in the weakest P6 conference. Others who think Wojo is the definition of mediocrity defend a coach who was supposed to be the great mastermind in college basketball but is stumbling around in Year 5 at Texas.

And all of that is cool. It's all about perception.

The jury SHOULD be out on Wojo. He has done some good things, but he has accomplished precious little of real value. I know he still has a lot to show me; I just don't know how anybody can brand him a total failure yet, as some have.

IMHO, the verdict isn't in.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on February 08, 2020, 09:47:16 AM

My impression is that he didn't get impatient as much as he got screwed.  I thought he was named coach in waiting with a plan to take over the program in a couple of years, only to have Boeheim decide he wanted to coach longer.  And as keefe said, UW was a great personal fit. 

We will see how good he is long run but he certainly has earned some additional time.

Yes - Good contextual addition...was this that contributed to his impatience, and rightfully so.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on February 08, 2020, 09:54:36 AM
The jury is out on a lot of coaches, including Wojo.

Some who think Wojo is an absolute loser defend a coach who, in Year 3 of his program, is in dead last in the weakest P6 conference. Others who think Wojo is the definition of mediocrity defend a coach who was supposed to be the great mastermind in college basketball but is stumbling around in Year 5 at Texas.

And all of that is cool. It's all about perception.

The jury SHOULD be out on Wojo. He has done some good things, but he has accomplished precious little of real value. I know he still has a lot to show me; I just don't know how anybody can brand him a total failure yet, as some have.

IMHO, the verdict isn't in.

Actually Pac 12 this year is 4th in KenPom, albeit meaninfgully behind the Big East, which is 3rd.

The record Hopkins has at Washington doesn't look good, and being in last place is never a good look, but, end of the day, Ken Pom has them at 50 - so in the neighborhood of Xavier and Georgetown this season.

Also, don't know where anybody has posted Wojo is a "total failure?"  Total mediocrity?  Yes.  In over his head?  Yes.  Losing the Hausers was bad.  He's done a good job recovering without them, and IMO is turning in his best coaching job thus far.

Yet, we also have to be objective about things and realize that this performance has coincided with having Markus Howard, who has re-written the record book at MU in a massive way, will be a two-time All American, Big East POY, etc.  We should have some good milestones, with a talent like Markus.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on February 08, 2020, 09:56:00 AM
I spent the last 45 minutes catching up on the last 5 pages of this thread while watching the debate.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7aYHPR0uyjHAAjC/giphy.gif)

You learned more here
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on February 08, 2020, 09:57:25 AM
And the other question is what is Syracuse going to do now?  They don't seem likely at this point to make the NCAAs, they have dropped off the map since joining the ACC, and their head coach is 75 years old.  They will likely promote from within, but is that going to be a long-term solution?

They signed a major player just yesterday


Top 5 player, number 2 PG.  https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2020/02/dior-johnson-on-committing-to-syracuse-ill-bring-in-more-recruits.html
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: lurch91 on February 08, 2020, 10:36:12 AM
This is all anecdotal, but it seems like rebuilding coaches who take on one and dones in the first few years don't have a lot of team success with those one and dones. Wojo, Cuonzo at Cal and Mizzou, Alford at UCLA, Shaka at Texas, Johnny Jones at LSU, Marvin Menzies at UNLV, and now possibly Hopkins at UW. I haven't done a deep dive, I'm sure there are plenty of counter examples or other explanations but maybe there is some truth to the thought that recruiting one and dones early in the rebuilding process actually can set the rebuild back.

That's a good take.  One and done's are awesome when they're the last piece of a puzzle, like a free agent in pro sports.  But to a program struggling to gain consistency, they don't add stability and experience to the roster.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 08, 2020, 10:52:07 AM
Actually Pac 12 this year is 4th in KenPom, albeit meaninfgully behind the Big East, which is 3rd.

The record Hopkins has at Washington doesn't look good, and being in last place is never a good look, but, end of the day, Ken Pom has them at 50 - so in the neighborhood of Xavier and Georgetown this season.

Also, don't know where anybody has posted Wojo is a "total failure?"  Total mediocrity?  Yes.  In over his head?  Yes.  Losing the Hausers was bad.  He's done a good job recovering without them, and IMO is turning in his best coaching job thus far.

Yet, we also have to be objective about things and realize that this performance has coincided with having Markus Howard, who has re-written the record book at MU in a massive way, will be a two-time All American, Big East POY, etc.  We should have some good milestones, with a talent like Markus.

Well, many have wanted Wojo fired, some as early as 2 years ago. So I interpret that as a "total failure." But I might have overshot with that; they merely want anybody else.

I doubt a huge number of Scoopers would be fine with dead last in the BEast in Year 3 as long as they have a decent KenPom number.

I wish Wojo had done better, with and without Markus. Still, I do appreciate the many exciting games we've had. For me, the verdict still isn't in.
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: PointWarrior on February 08, 2020, 10:55:33 AM

Totally agree Hopkins has a long leash.   But this year has been a debacle - went from a dark horse for the final four to last in the the pac 12.   

Yes, let’s met up when you get back. 

Dave

He has a very long leash. I have that on solid authority. Hopkins will get it done.

I am on the road for 10 days. Happy Hour at Brave Horse Tavern when I get back?
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: MU82 on February 08, 2020, 11:09:57 AM
I think Jamie already pointed this out but let's see what Dutcher does with a team he built.

Should have answered this better before.

Dutcher IS doing this with a team he built. Two grad transfers, one traditional transfer and one Juco transfer, all recruited by Dutcher, are major parts of San Diego State's success. Especially Malachi Flynn, who transferred from Washington State (where he averaged 16 points and 4 assists as a sophomore) and has been a stud at SDSU after sitting out the required year.

Obviously, he's going to have to recruit high schools well, too, to have long-term success. But he's done a fine job so far.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: tower912 on February 08, 2020, 11:34:13 AM
If the verdict was truly in, this thread would not be as long. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Elonsmusk on February 08, 2020, 11:46:05 AM
Well, many have wanted Wojo fired, some as early as 2 years ago. So I interpret that as a "total failure." But I might have overshot with that; they merely want anybody else.

I doubt a huge number of Scoopers would be fine with dead last in the BEast in Year 3 as long as they have a decent KenPom number.

I wish Wojo had done better, with and without Markus. Still, I do appreciate the many exciting games we've had. For me, the verdict still isn't in.

Good post. I agree especially with the fact that we have been entertaining to watch - offensively gifted.

One modification - I ultimately wanted Wojo fired after Year 2 - yet never called him a total failure.  The patience you and other ProJos preached may prove to be prescient.

So long as he and staff can continue to recruit at a high level - we should be able to be a Top 20-25 program, which is  acceptable/good enough performance,IMO. 
Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on February 08, 2020, 04:05:15 PM
Should have answered this better before.

Dutcher IS doing this with a team he built. Two grad transfers, one traditional transfer and one Juco transfer, all recruited by Dutcher, are major parts of San Diego State's success. Especially Malachi Flynn, who transferred from Washington State (where he averaged 16 points and 4 assists as a sophomore) and has been a stud at SDSU after sitting out the required year.

Obviously, he's going to have to recruit high schools well, too, to have long-term success. But he's done a fine job so far.

Two of the top four players on SDSU’s roster signed to play for Steve Fischer.

Title: Re: The Verdict Is In
Post by: Cheeks on February 09, 2020, 11:41:02 PM
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

Lol