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Author Topic: The Verdict Is In  (Read 36667 times)

Lennys Tap

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The Verdict Is In
« on: January 26, 2020, 11:28:16 PM »
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.




WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2020, 11:42:51 PM »
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

Mick Cronin isn't ready either.

He got a technical for having 6 players on the floor today.

It wasn't just a player accidentally stepping on the court either. 6 players were out on the court playing at the same time. UCLA got crushed by the way.

It kinda makes Wojos mistake look insignificant.

The funniest thing is that after the loss to Butler, some scoopers were putting his name forward as a replacement for Wojo. UCLA is 10-10 in a weaker conference by the way.

Karmic timing at its best.

Lennys Tap

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2020, 11:59:13 PM »
Mick Cronin isn't ready either.

He got a technical for having 6 players on the floor today.

It wasn't just a player accidentally stepping on the court either. 6 players were out on the court playing at the same time. UCLA got crushed by the way.

It kinda makes Wojos mistake look insignificant.

The funniest thing is that after the loss to Butler, some scoopers were putting his name forward as a replacement for Wojo. UCLA is 10-10 in a weaker conference by the way.

Leaders are capable of all kinds of stupid mistakes. I don’t know the particulars of the Cronin blunder, but please explain how they mitigate against Wojo being so discombobulated that he didn’t know the score with 20 seconds left in a game in which there was a full timeout taken 20 seconds earlier and after which there were zero points scored? That’s inexcusable. I’ve seen players get confused in that situation (though very rarely) but in the literally thousands of games I’ve watched I’ve never seen a coach so flummoxed. Wojo’s an all timer, a’ina?

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2020, 12:07:15 AM »
Leaders are capable of all kinds of stupid mistakes. I don’t know the particulars of the Cronin blunder, but please explain how they mitigate against Wojo being so discombobulated that he didn’t know the score with 20 seconds left in a game in which there was a full timeout taken 20 seconds earlier and after which there were zero points scored? That’s inexcusable. I’ve seen players get confused in that situation (though very rarely) but in the literally thousands of games I’ve watched I’ve never seen a coach so flummoxed. Wojo’s an all timer, a’ina?

Markus not being Markus was more important than anything Wojo did or didn't do. Just like Kamar was more important than anything Lavall Jordan did or didn't do. Waaaaay to much focus is put on coaches IMHO

Lennys Tap

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2020, 12:20:14 AM »
Markus not being Markus was more important than anything Wojo did or didn't do. Just like Kamar was more important than anything Lavall Jordan did or didn't do. Waaaaay to much focus is put on coaches IMHO

If Wojo is unimportant why is MU paying him almost 2.3 million? And if 2.3 million doesn’t get you a coach who can make in game adjustments or control his locker room shouldn’t it at least be enough to get you a guy who can keep track of the score?

Cheeks

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2020, 01:01:52 AM »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2020, 01:18:26 AM »
If Wojo is unimportant why is MU paying him almost 2.3 million? And if 2.3 million doesn’t get you a coach who can make in game adjustments or control his locker room shouldn’t it at least be enough to get you a guy who can keep track of the score?

Not unimportant just not more important than star players. I'll take Michael Jordan over Phil Jackson any day of the week

I think Wojo has earned most of his pay with  his recruiting. Marquette has had a fairly steady stream of entertaining players during his tenure. It seems like he's going to continue that tradition next season. He's also developed several players who have given me hope that he's more than just a recruiter. Sacar, Theo, and Brendan, are great examples, and Markus has excelled in Wojos system. Jamal is even showing some things this year, and Symir seems like he's going to be a good one down the road.

If Wojo lands Mane he will have more than earned his pay.

At this point all Wojo has to do is win in the tournament and the program should be back to where it was when he started the rebuild.


NorthernDancerColt

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2020, 01:25:49 AM »
Markus not being Markus was more important than anything Wojo did or didn't do. Just like Kamar was more important than anything Lavall Jordan did or didn't do. Waaaaay to much focus is put on coaches IMHO

Very well-said. As people here know, I have been solidly in Wojo’s corner. However, I was incredulous at the  foul gaffe. Watching the game with my UNLV 1990 Champion buddy, he quickly put things in perspective for me. “You’d be surprised. In the heat of battle, there’s a million things going through a coach’s head.”  He went on to say that Jerry Tarkanian had it happen to him a couple times in years when he didn’t just have to roll out the basketballs to get a win.  As has been stated, it’s not why we lost. My buddy and I did agree that just as we have “Markused” so many opponents, this night we just got “Kamared”. Superstars take over home games often. It’s what they do. My buddy knows college hoops. He said the Big East is “hands down the best conference” and that these games are going to serve us well in March.

Wojo has forgotten more about hoops than any of us armchair coaches will ever know. I get it that he’s supposed to, as the $2 Million head of a proud program. Butler was simply not gonna lose another consecutive game, and their star torched us when it mattered most. We could’ve doubled that star and watched other guys beat us. Normally after making that 3 to get the game to OT anyone would feel a huge momentum surge in MU’s favor. Neither me nor my buddy felt it, and you just got the sense Butler would will themselves to victory.
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D'Lo Brown

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2020, 01:31:24 AM »
Do we need a new thread for this crybaby stuff after every loss or can we possibly have a single crybaby thread? Good grief. Rub some dirt on it & move on.

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2020, 05:51:08 AM »
Mick Cronin isn't ready either.

He got a technical for having 6 players on the floor today.

It wasn't just a player accidentally stepping on the court either. 6 players were out on the court playing at the same time. UCLA got crushed by the way.

It kinda makes Wojos mistake look insignificant.

The funniest thing is that after the loss to Butler, some scoopers were putting his name forward as a replacement for Wojo. UCLA is 10-10 in a weaker conference by the way.

Karmic timing at its best.

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mu_hilltopper

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2020, 08:33:52 AM »
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Butler was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Butler has ball, scores
6:23 - Butler has ball, scores
5:42 - Butler has ball, scores
5:00 - Butler has ball, scores
4:28 - Butler has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Butler has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Butler has ball, scores
2:21 - Butler has ball, scores
1:29 - Butler has ball, scores
0:49 - Butler has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Butler with the ball.  Butler was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Butler's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.
edit: whoops, wrong team.  Butler.



« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 08:50:11 AM by mu_hilltopper »

Lennys Tap

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2020, 08:43:00 AM »
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Creighton was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Creighton has ball, scores
6:23 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:42 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:00 - Creighton has ball, scores
4:28 - Creighton has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Creighton has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Creighton has ball, scores
2:21 - Creighton has ball, scores
1:29 - Creighton has ball, scores
0:49 - Creighton has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Creighton with the ball.  Creighton was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Creighton's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.

It was actually Butler, but I can see how you might have been confused - could have been almost anybody.

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2020, 08:43:26 AM »
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Creighton was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Creighton has ball, scores
6:23 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:42 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:00 - Creighton has ball, scores
4:28 - Creighton has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Creighton has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Creighton has ball, scores
2:21 - Creighton has ball, scores
1:29 - Creighton has ball, scores
0:49 - Creighton has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Creighton with the ball.  Creighton was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Creighton's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.

Did you mean Butler?

But I agree.  The foul call is what verifies Wojo is in over his head?  Really?  The foul call wasn't even the issue in the loss.  It was the inability to stop Kamar Baldwin.  That's much more of an issue than a very stupid brainfart that actually put Marquette in a position to WIN the game (keep in mind, Baldwin went 1 for 2 and we had the ball down by 1 point with 20 seconds left in the game...).
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2020, 08:47:51 AM »
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake. 
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wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2020, 08:49:28 AM »
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake.

I'm not giving him credit for a strategy.  I'm saying his "unforgiveable mistake" was so unforgivable that 1) we got the ball with a chance to win the game and 2) the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is the exact result we got.  That "unforgivable mistake" is not what lost us the game at Butler.
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mu_hilltopper

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2020, 08:53:00 AM »
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake. 

We agree.  Wojo screwed up, but in reverse.

He compounded his "mistake" by not coming up with a better excuse.  All he had to say was "I didn't want them to have the last shot to win." 

Eldon

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2020, 08:56:06 AM »
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

And we still do!

Did you not watch how Butler bludgeoned Markus with a chair, forcing Wojo to play him concussed?  Watch the replay



Clearly intentional; F2 at a bare minimum.

genious expert

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2020, 08:58:01 AM »
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Creighton was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Creighton has ball, scores
6:23 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:42 - Creighton has ball, scores
5:00 - Creighton has ball, scores
4:28 - Creighton has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Creighton has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Creighton has ball, scores
2:21 - Creighton has ball, scores
1:29 - Creighton has ball, scores
0:49 - Creighton has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Creighton with the ball.  Creighton was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Creighton's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.

Honestly, I was ok with him calling for the foul. There was no chance we were stopping Butler.
During real time what ran through my head was this: "Ok foul them, you are down either 1 or 2. Call timeout on the other end and set something up and go out on your own terms win or lose."
Similar mindset to being down 1 in football and going for 2 to get the win on the road. I will never fault a coach for doing that.

He really should have just spin-zoned it to make it sound like he did it on purpose. So simple.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2020, 08:59:39 AM »
Honestly, I was ok with him calling for the foul. There was no chance we were stopping Butler.


Sorry but that's just not true.  The idea that Butler was guaranteed to score there is absurd.
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MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2020, 09:00:06 AM »
This is all pretty funny.

One could make an argument that Wojo has failed to deliver for 5 1/2 years. One could argue quite successfully that the end to last season -- with the combination of the blowing of the BEast title, the NCAA humiliation to Murray State and Hausershima -- was especially horrible. The argument that he isn't very adept at making good in-game adjustments is also legit.

But it's a simple mistake about the clock -- the kind of mistake others also have made and one that didn't even cost Marquette the game -- that "proves" he will never, ever, ever be able to win big at Marquette?

And then that mistake sets up an debate about it not really having been a mistake; the mistake was not lying about the mistake?

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panda

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2020, 09:07:13 AM »
I'm a NoJo, but Wojo's INFAMOUS FOUL CALL was a good call.

Did everyone forget that Butler was unstoppable at that time? 

Game log-

7:08 - Butler has ball, scores
6:23 - Butler has ball, scores
5:42 - Butler has ball, scores
5:00 - Butler has ball, scores
4:28 - Butler has ball, fails to score (offensive charge)
4:00 - Butler has ball, misses shot
3:02 - Butler has ball, scores
2:21 - Butler has ball, scores
1:29 - Butler has ball, scores
0:49 - Butler has ball, scores
10 trips, 8 successes. 

22 seconds left, tied, Butler with the ball.  Butler was absolutely going to take the last shot, score, game ends, 70-68.   

Wojo made the right call for the wrong reason, but avoided an (immediate) loss 22 seconds later.

Bonus info:  Butler's next 15 possessions in OT, they scored on 13 of them.  They were unstoppable.   It's frankly amazing MU only lost by 4.
edit: whoops, wrong team.  Butler.

https://kenpom.com/blog/studying-whether-to-foul-when-tied-part-3

Who knows what happens if Bailey doesn’t foul, but Bailey fouling out in OT killed any chances we had at the W. If he doesn’t commit that boneheaded foul his coach called for, Bailey never fouls out in OT.

brewcity77

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2020, 09:07:58 AM »
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake.

I'm glad he at least admitted the mistake. It would be poor form and likely transparent to try to come up with an excuse that makes him look like he was playing 4D Chess.
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cheebs09

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2020, 09:08:52 AM »
A coach forgetting the score with 20 seconds left, and ordering something that lowers our chance at winning is pretty serious. Heck, what if we took a shot with 5 seconds left and Wojo thought we were down two. I’d have more confidence in him if he said that was his strategy and at least had some reason to justify it.

Also, who says Butler uses the full clock? Maybe they get their first good look with 8 seconds left and take it. Maybe they dribble it off their foot. To act like it was a foregone conclusion they make the shot with no time left is a leap. Plus, then Wojo just has no faith in his team to stop anyone.

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2020, 09:13:04 AM »
A coach forgetting the score with 20 seconds left, and ordering something that lowers our chance at winning is pretty serious. Heck, what if we took a shot with 5 seconds left and Wojo thought we were down two. I’d have more confidence in him if he said that was his strategy and at least had some reason to justify it.

Also, who says Butler uses the full clock? Maybe they get their first good look with 8 seconds left and take it. Maybe they dribble it off their foot. To act like it was a foregone conclusion they make the shot with no time left is a leap. Plus, then Wojo just has no faith in his team to stop anyone.

Forgetting the score one time is a far more forgivable mistake than having your team shoot the ball in a tie game and no shot clock with enough time that you lose the game.  Butler should be far more worried about their coaching situation if they let that happen.  You shoot the ball with about 4 seconds left so there's enough time for a putback on an offensive rebound, but not enough time for anything but a full court heave on a defensive rebound.

Again, the absolute best case scenario for Marquette when Butler got the defensive rebound was to get to overtime.  Marquette got to overtime even with this "unforgiveable mistake."  The mistake was not the reason Marquette lost the game.  Being unable to stop Kamar Baldwin was.
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Daniel

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2020, 09:21:47 AM »
People make mistakes in all walks of life.  Just reality.  So Wojo made a mistake.  So did Al in the old days and the court is named after him.   Al won it all after 13 years but blamed himself for the technicals in 74. 

So, let’s raise our hands who never made a mistake......  ok.

 

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