collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* St. John's SOTG

No Stud when we lose.
2019-20 Season SoG Tally
Howard12
Anim2
Bailey2
Cain1
McEwen1

'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Garcia asks out of his LOI by ATWizJr
[Today at 01:57:47 AM]


NM by ZiggysFryBoy
[Today at 01:22:06 AM]


NCAA investigations cont. by Billy Hoyle
[Today at 12:53:00 AM]


Transfer portal by Mr. Sand-Knit
[April 02, 2020, 11:41:10 PM]


Former Wake Forest Coach Carl Tacy Passes by We R Final Four
[April 02, 2020, 11:22:32 PM]


2020 Coaching Carousel by JakeBarnes
[April 02, 2020, 04:26:15 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: Seton Hall (BET) - CANCELLED

Marquette
86
Marquette vs

Seton Hall

Date/Time: CANCELLED
TV: NA
Schedule for 2019-20
St. John's
88

Author Topic: The Verdict Is In  (Read 9999 times)

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8084
  • "Death From Above"
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #225 on: February 08, 2020, 08:28:59 AM »
2-10 in last 12 games.   Smell on lake Washington not so great...

Dave

He has a very long leash. I have that on solid authority. Hopkins will get it done.

I am on the road for 10 days. Happy Hour at Brave Horse Tavern when I get back?


Death on call

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13471
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #226 on: February 08, 2020, 08:29:13 AM »
And the other question is what is Syracuse going to do now?  They don't seem likely at this point to make the NCAAs, they have dropped off the map since joining the ACC, and their head coach is 75 years old.  They will likely promote from within, but is that going to be a long-term solution?

Maybe just when Boeheim is ready to finally retire, Hopkins will have put together his second consecutive very good season at UW ... and he will be enticed to return to his long-time employer, a school in a superior league with better basketball tradition.

The shine on Syracuse is gone.

Plenty of Scoopers believe Marquette will have its pick of P6 coaches clamoring to come to Milwaukee when Wojo leaves or is fired. Not sure why the same wouldn't be true of Cuse.

Or hell, maybe Hopkins will want to really take a step up and come to MU after Wojo bolts!
“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8084
  • "Death From Above"
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #227 on: February 08, 2020, 08:35:17 AM »
The shine on Syracuse is gone. I’m guessing a MU post-Al decline. Except the MU patriarch tried to continue success by stepping down at the right time.

Northern New York is awful 9 out of 12 months, the Carrier Dome is aging poorly and no coaches wives are putting out.

Still one of the funniest Inside Hoops vignette's ever.

The fly in the ointment (so to speak) is that Mrs. Fine is far from fine. Frankly, I think that may have scared off more than a few recruits



Death on call

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8084
  • "Death From Above"
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #228 on: February 08, 2020, 08:36:57 AM »
Maybe just when Boeheim is ready to finally retire, Hopkins will have put together his second consecutive very good season at UW ... and he will be enticed to return to his long-time employer, a school in a superior league with better basketball tradition.

Plenty of Scoopers believe Marquette will have its pick of P6 coaches clamoring to come to Milwaukee when Wojo leaves or is fired. Not sure why the same wouldn't be true of Cuse.

Or hell, maybe Hopkins will want to really take a step up and come to MU after Wojo bolts!

Hopkins was on MU's list back in  '14


Death on call

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13471
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #229 on: February 08, 2020, 08:48:24 AM »
Hopkins was on MU's list back in  '14

Obviously, the situations are so different - one is at a large public school in a mediocre (at best) conference; the other is at a private school in one of the most competitive leagues - but I guess time will tell if Hopkins proves to be "better" than Wojo.

The only thing I know for certain is that Scoop would have gone absolutely apeshyte if Wojo, in Year 3 at MU, had gone 12-11 overall and 2-8 in the BEast.

If Hopkins is as good as you and others think he is, he will bounce back strongly next season. I wish him good fortune. My daughter is a Marquette fan first (of course!) but she does follow Huskies hoops a little.
“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8084
  • "Death From Above"
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #230 on: February 08, 2020, 09:05:59 AM »
Obviously, the situations are so different - one is at a large public school in a mediocre (at best) conference; the other is at a private school in one of the most competitive leagues - but I guess time will tell if Hopkins proves to be "better" than Wojo.

The only thing I know for certain is that Scoop would have gone absolutely apeshyte if Wojo, in Year 3 at MU, had gone 12-11 overall and 2-8 in the BEast.

If Hopkins is as good as you and others think he is, he will bounce back strongly next season. I wish him good fortune. My daughter is a Marquette fan first (of course!) but she does follow Huskies hoops a little.

Mike

I know some big boosters who sit courtside at the Hech. They love Hopkins.

Romar could recruit but he couldn't coach. Worse, he didn't know how to manage the alumni.

Hopkins can certainly recruit and he has shown tactical proficiency but, most importantly, he is winning over the hearts and minds of the alumni. I think the jury is still out but, as Musk demonstrated, Hopkins has moved the needle vis-à-vis Romar.

Here is the dirty little secret though about the PAC 12: It's all about football.

Perhaps for another discussion, but the decline of the Pac 12 in all sports, but especially football and basketball, is staggering. They are just not competitive in any meaningful way. 

 


Death on call

LloydsLegs

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #231 on: February 08, 2020, 09:15:22 AM »
On the flip side, there is Will Wade, Bruce Pearl, Sean Miller...

On the “jury is out” side, Penny at Memphis...

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13471
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #232 on: February 08, 2020, 09:41:50 AM »
The jury is out on a lot of coaches, including Wojo.

Some who think Wojo is an absolute loser defend a coach who, in Year 3 of his program, is in dead last in the weakest P6 conference. Others who think Wojo is the definition of mediocrity defend a coach who was supposed to be the great mastermind in college basketball but is stumbling around in Year 5 at Texas.

And all of that is cool. It's all about perception.

The jury SHOULD be out on Wojo. He has done some good things, but he has accomplished precious little of real value. I know he still has a lot to show me; I just don't know how anybody can brand him a total failure yet, as some have.

IMHO, the verdict isn't in.
“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

Elonsmusk

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #233 on: February 08, 2020, 09:47:16 AM »

My impression is that he didn't get impatient as much as he got screwed.  I thought he was named coach in waiting with a plan to take over the program in a couple of years, only to have Boeheim decide he wanted to coach longer.  And as keefe said, UW was a great personal fit. 

We will see how good he is long run but he certainly has earned some additional time.

Yes - Good contextual addition...was this that contributed to his impatience, and rightfully so.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Elonsmusk

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #234 on: February 08, 2020, 09:54:36 AM »
The jury is out on a lot of coaches, including Wojo.

Some who think Wojo is an absolute loser defend a coach who, in Year 3 of his program, is in dead last in the weakest P6 conference. Others who think Wojo is the definition of mediocrity defend a coach who was supposed to be the great mastermind in college basketball but is stumbling around in Year 5 at Texas.

And all of that is cool. It's all about perception.

The jury SHOULD be out on Wojo. He has done some good things, but he has accomplished precious little of real value. I know he still has a lot to show me; I just don't know how anybody can brand him a total failure yet, as some have.

IMHO, the verdict isn't in.

Actually Pac 12 this year is 4th in KenPom, albeit meaninfgully behind the Big East, which is 3rd.

The record Hopkins has at Washington doesn't look good, and being in last place is never a good look, but, end of the day, Ken Pom has them at 50 - so in the neighborhood of Xavier and Georgetown this season.

Also, don't know where anybody has posted Wojo is a "total failure?"  Total mediocrity?  Yes.  In over his head?  Yes.  Losing the Hausers was bad.  He's done a good job recovering without them, and IMO is turning in his best coaching job thus far.

Yet, we also have to be objective about things and realize that this performance has coincided with having Markus Howard, who has re-written the record book at MU in a massive way, will be a two-time All American, Big East POY, etc.  We should have some good milestones, with a talent like Markus.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #235 on: February 08, 2020, 09:56:00 AM »
I spent the last 45 minutes catching up on the last 5 pages of this thread while watching the debate.



You learned more here
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #236 on: February 08, 2020, 09:57:25 AM »
And the other question is what is Syracuse going to do now?  They don't seem likely at this point to make the NCAAs, they have dropped off the map since joining the ACC, and their head coach is 75 years old.  They will likely promote from within, but is that going to be a long-term solution?

They signed a major player just yesterday


Top 5 player, number 2 PG.  https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2020/02/dior-johnson-on-committing-to-syracuse-ill-bring-in-more-recruits.html
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 10:43:51 AM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

lurch91

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #237 on: February 08, 2020, 10:36:12 AM »
This is all anecdotal, but it seems like rebuilding coaches who take on one and dones in the first few years don't have a lot of team success with those one and dones. Wojo, Cuonzo at Cal and Mizzou, Alford at UCLA, Shaka at Texas, Johnny Jones at LSU, Marvin Menzies at UNLV, and now possibly Hopkins at UW. I haven't done a deep dive, I'm sure there are plenty of counter examples or other explanations but maybe there is some truth to the thought that recruiting one and dones early in the rebuilding process actually can set the rebuild back.

That's a good take.  One and done's are awesome when they're the last piece of a puzzle, like a free agent in pro sports.  But to a program struggling to gain consistency, they don't add stability and experience to the roster.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13471
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #238 on: February 08, 2020, 10:52:07 AM »
Actually Pac 12 this year is 4th in KenPom, albeit meaninfgully behind the Big East, which is 3rd.

The record Hopkins has at Washington doesn't look good, and being in last place is never a good look, but, end of the day, Ken Pom has them at 50 - so in the neighborhood of Xavier and Georgetown this season.

Also, don't know where anybody has posted Wojo is a "total failure?"  Total mediocrity?  Yes.  In over his head?  Yes.  Losing the Hausers was bad.  He's done a good job recovering without them, and IMO is turning in his best coaching job thus far.

Yet, we also have to be objective about things and realize that this performance has coincided with having Markus Howard, who has re-written the record book at MU in a massive way, will be a two-time All American, Big East POY, etc.  We should have some good milestones, with a talent like Markus.

Well, many have wanted Wojo fired, some as early as 2 years ago. So I interpret that as a "total failure." But I might have overshot with that; they merely want anybody else.

I doubt a huge number of Scoopers would be fine with dead last in the BEast in Year 3 as long as they have a decent KenPom number.

I wish Wojo had done better, with and without Markus. Still, I do appreciate the many exciting games we've had. For me, the verdict still isn't in.
“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

PointWarrior

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #239 on: February 08, 2020, 10:55:33 AM »

Totally agree Hopkins has a long leash.   But this year has been a debacle - went from a dark horse for the final four to last in the the pac 12.   

Yes, let’s met up when you get back. 

Dave

He has a very long leash. I have that on solid authority. Hopkins will get it done.

I am on the road for 10 days. Happy Hour at Brave Horse Tavern when I get back?

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13471
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #240 on: February 08, 2020, 11:09:57 AM »
I think Jamie already pointed this out but let's see what Dutcher does with a team he built.

Should have answered this better before.

Dutcher IS doing this with a team he built. Two grad transfers, one traditional transfer and one Juco transfer, all recruited by Dutcher, are major parts of San Diego State's success. Especially Malachi Flynn, who transferred from Washington State (where he averaged 16 points and 4 assists as a sophomore) and has been a stud at SDSU after sitting out the required year.

Obviously, he's going to have to recruit high schools well, too, to have long-term success. But he's done a fine job so far.

“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 15731
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #241 on: February 08, 2020, 11:34:13 AM »
If the verdict was truly in, this thread would not be as long. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Elonsmusk

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #242 on: February 08, 2020, 11:46:05 AM »
Well, many have wanted Wojo fired, some as early as 2 years ago. So I interpret that as a "total failure." But I might have overshot with that; they merely want anybody else.

I doubt a huge number of Scoopers would be fine with dead last in the BEast in Year 3 as long as they have a decent KenPom number.

I wish Wojo had done better, with and without Markus. Still, I do appreciate the many exciting games we've had. For me, the verdict still isn't in.

Good post. I agree especially with the fact that we have been entertaining to watch - offensively gifted.

One modification - I ultimately wanted Wojo fired after Year 2 - yet never called him a total failure.  The patience you and other ProJos preached may prove to be prescient.

So long as he and staff can continue to recruit at a high level - we should be able to be a Top 20-25 program, which is  acceptable/good enough performance,IMO. 
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #243 on: February 08, 2020, 04:05:15 PM »
Should have answered this better before.

Dutcher IS doing this with a team he built. Two grad transfers, one traditional transfer and one Juco transfer, all recruited by Dutcher, are major parts of San Diego State's success. Especially Malachi Flynn, who transferred from Washington State (where he averaged 16 points and 4 assists as a sophomore) and has been a stud at SDSU after sitting out the required year.

Obviously, he's going to have to recruit high schools well, too, to have long-term success. But he's done a fine job so far.

Two of the top four players on SDSU’s roster signed to play for Steve Fischer.

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #244 on: February 09, 2020, 11:41:02 PM »
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

Lol
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire