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Author Topic: The Verdict Is In  (Read 36704 times)

genious expert

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2020, 09:26:26 AM »

Sorry but that's just not true.  The idea that Butler was guaranteed to score there is absurd.

Of course it's not a "guarantee" that they were going to score. But look at the data hilltopper just posted. It was "more probable than not" that we were going to lose if we let them have the last shot. They scored on 21/25 possessions to end the game. Anybody with 2 eyeballs watching the game knew we weren't going to stop them there.

I'd rather take my chances down 1 or 2 with a last second shot on the road. The odds of making that shot were probably much higher than Butler missing or beating them in overtime.

And all Wojo had to do was spin-zone it that way instead of saying that he screwed up.

Markusquette

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2020, 09:31:21 AM »
Forgetting the score one time is a far more forgivable mistake than having your team shoot the ball in a tie game and no shot clock with enough time that you lose the game.  Butler should be far more worried about their coaching situation if they let that happen.  You shoot the ball with about 4 seconds left so there's enough time for a putback on an offensive rebound, but not enough time for anything but a full court heave on a defensive rebound.

Again, the absolute best case scenario for Marquette when Butler got the defensive rebound was to get to overtime.  Marquette got to overtime even with this "unforgiveable mistake."  The mistake was not the reason Marquette lost the game.  Being unable to stop Kamar Baldwin was.

That's the best part about this horrific blunder. The fact that MU sealed a chance to win in overtime. Moreover this would not even be much of a talking point had MU won. Baldwin was on fire and Butler was playing well. Sometimes it's just as much about the other team playing well and not the defense being 100% responsible.

There was virtually no talk about the team's resilience to fight at the end. I'm giving them some credit for making it that close in a game that seemed to be won easily in OT. The loss was a big disappointment but the fight the team showed was fun for me. Every single person who has commented on him mixing up the score must be delusional if they think they haven't made way bigger mistakes in the workplace, in school, as a parent, whatever it is. And no, this is not a microcosm of Wojo.

burger

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2020, 09:31:51 AM »
The "real" question should be.....

How can Illinois go from a "100+" ranking to Top 25 under 2 years with their new coach????

What are we doing wrong with a "bigger.....better" everything?????

mu_hilltopper

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2020, 09:32:44 AM »

Sorry but that's just not true.  The idea that Butler was guaranteed to score there is absurd.

Nothing in life is guaranteed.  But Butler was going to score and end that game.


Lennys Tap

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2020, 09:43:56 AM »
Forgetting the score one time is a far more forgivable mistake than having your team shoot the ball in a tie game and no shot clock with enough time that you lose the game.  Butler should be far more worried about their coaching situation if they let that happen.  You shoot the ball with about 4 seconds left so there's enough time for a putback on an offensive rebound, but not enough time for anything but a full court heave on a defensive rebound.



I specifically said that Wojo not knowing what the score was and ordering a dumb play be made by one of his players was NOT (ultimately anyway) the reason we lost. His deer in the headlights inability to notice/adjust to the fact that Butler was doing the same thing successfully time after time after time down the stretch and his acquiescence to Markus playing hero ball was. But not effectively adjusting in game and having a free reign star system have been hallmarks of the Wojo era from day one. And it hasn’t stopped his supporters from comparing him to Jay Wright, K and other coaching legends. But when a guy doesn’t even know what the score is at crunch time that is, to me at least, incompetence at a whole other level. And when it’s added to lack of adjustments, star system, inability to control the locker room, etc., etc., it pushed me over the ledge. I hope he can recruit well enough to overcome his sideline inadequacies, but if I’m up against him on the trail my message would be simple - “Do you want to entrust your NBA dream to a guy who doesn’t even know the score”?

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2020, 09:48:32 AM »
I specifically said that Wojo not knowing what the score was and ordering a dumb play be made by one of his players was NOT (ultimately anyway) the reason we lost. His deer in the headlights inability to notice/adjust to the fact that Butler was doing the same thing successfully time after time after time down the stretch and his acquiescence to Markus playing hero ball was. But not effectively adjusting in game and having a free reign star system have been hallmarks of the Wojo era from day one. And it hasn’t stopped his supporters from comparing him to Jay Wright, K and other coaching legends. But when a guy doesn’t even know what the score is at crunch time that is, to me at least, incompetence at a whole other level. And when it’s added to lack of adjustments, star system, inability to control the locker room, etc., etc., it pushed me over the ledge. I hope he can recruit well enough to overcome his sideline inadequacies, but if I’m up against him on the trail my message would be simple - “Do you want to entrust your NBA dream to a guy who doesn’t even know the score”?

Well the good thing is a guy who played over a decade in the NBA apparently has no problem entrusting his child's NBA dream to a guy who doesn't even know the score.

If that's a coach's recruiting pitch against Wojo, I'd feel very confident in where MU stands.
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1SE

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2020, 09:51:08 AM »
Nothing in life is guaranteed.  But Butler was going to score and end that game.



So do you also think Marquette should have fouled if they were up by 1?
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Silkk the Shaka

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2020, 09:52:22 AM »
Wojo gets no credit for some sort of strategy considering afterwards he admitted he made a mistake.

LOL especially since changing up the defensive look could have been a strategy to, you know, stop Butler from scoring at will

BobWildLoyalist

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2020, 09:56:35 AM »
The excuses from Wojo backers are sickening. You're lying to yourself. The guy needs to go. He's a horrible coach, we're paying him $2million+ to coach. College basketball is big business and Wojo isn't earning his money. He's a professional and should be treated like one. There is no accountability.

Lennys Tap

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2020, 09:58:33 AM »
Well the good thing is a guy who played over a decade in the NBA apparently has no problem entrusting his child's NBA dream to a guy who doesn't even know the score.

If that's a coach's recruiting pitch against Wojo, I'd feel very confident in where MU stands.

Bailey made his choice a long time ago. Who knows if he would make the same choice today?

Regardless, most of the time players, not coaches, win or lose games. If we keep getting enough good ones we’ll win our share. But when things are equal (or close to it) I don’t see Wojo ever being a guy who gives us an edge, a guy who puts us in a better position to win than the other guy.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 10:00:19 AM by Lennys Tap »

MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2020, 10:07:25 AM »
Lenny:

To the best of my knowledge, no Scooper has "compared" Wojo to Wright or K. Some of us merely have pointed out that it also took those HoF-caliber coaches time as college coaches to win big.

Meanwhile, others have pointed out that some coaches have not needed that amount of time. Indeed, burger is the latest to have done so, just a few posts before this one. It's simply two sides of an argument, both using available facts.

I don't recall a single Scooper saying, "Jay Wright didn't win an NCAA tournament game until his 11th season as a Division I head coach, therefore Wojo is as good a coach as, or better then, Jay Wright."

Nojos, however, HAVE compared Wojo to both Deane and Dukiet. Their arguments have been specious at best, dishonest at worst.

As for opposing coaches using Wojo's brain-fart as negative recruiting ... really?

Many of us -- including me, who had been strongly Projo -- were extremely concerned about the potential negative effect Hausershima would have on recruiting. I thought it was a very legitimate concern. "He couldn't even keep two Wisconsin kids happy, two kids who had major roles on his team. You're gonna let your son play for him? Kids love our program and we don't have a big transfer problem like he does." THAT was a basis for negative recruiting.

Instead, Wojo went out and put together a top-10 recruiting class, with each of these kids -- including a McDonald's AA -- citing the coaching staff, the players' happiness and the family atmosphere as among the reasons they chose Marquette.

So those of us who were worried are happy to say that our concerns ended up being unnecessary.

But now an in-game brain-fart is gonna cost us good recruits? C'mon, Lenny, you're better than that.

He made a mistake. As I and most other "leaning Projos" have acknowledged, it was a bad mistake. But let's not make it into something bigger than it is, some kind of sign that it proves he will never build a winning program at Marquette.

Letting Baldwin score from the same spot 800 times is much worse to me. IMHO, that won't cost us any recruits, either.
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g0lden3agle

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2020, 10:14:11 AM »
I'm not giving him credit for a strategy.  I'm saying his "unforgiveable mistake" was so unforgivable that 1) we got the ball with a chance to win the game and 2) the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is the exact result we got.  That "unforgivable mistake" is not what lost us the game at Butler.

Can you clarify #2?  Wouldn't the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is an outright stop, wherein we get the ball back tied, and worst case scenario we go to OT if we miss the last shot?

UPDATE: I just went back to the play by play and had forgotten that there was <30seconds left on the game clock.  Disregard this question, other than maybe quibbling over whether it's better to take the strategy that almost guarantees you are losing vs. taking the strategy that aims for a good possession solidifying the tie.  "Quibbling" reinforces the fact that the mistake wasn't as "unforgivable" as people are making it out to be.  HUGE? Yes.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 10:20:31 AM by g0lden3agle »

NCMUFan

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2020, 10:17:12 AM »
Markus not being Markus.  Hmm, shouldn't a coach realize that and adjust appropriately?  I like Wojo and think he has a number of positives.  But some items are tough to watch as a fan.  Especially on such a well played game by the rest of the team.
Some games we wouldn't have won without Markus, but this game, just having Markus on the court and not having him touch the ball would of probably provided us the victory.

keefe

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2020, 10:18:14 AM »
It didn’t cost us the game. But that didn’t make it any less shocking. And it made official what 4ever, Goose and others have asserted for a long time. Wojo is in over his head. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence (inability to adjust in game, failures in the tournament, last season’s total collapse, a system that deferred to his gunners and all too often resulted in hero ball, Hausergate, etc.,) that Wojo was overmatched, but the projos always had a counterpoint. Wojo needs time, Markus was hurt, Sam and Joey were at fault, etc. So a stalemate - until Friday.

Initially, I didn’t believe what I was seeing. “How could Brendan be so mixed up?”, I wondered. Marquette had just used a timeout 20 seconds earlier - didn’t the staff talk about time and score and how to play things if we didn’t score? Then my disbelief turned to shock. It wasn’t Brendan who panicked in utter confusion. It wasn’t Brendan who didn’t know the most elementary item (the score) in the final seconds of a game. It was Wojo.

I’m still in disbelief. As for him being given credit for “owning it”, what else was he gonna do? Add a lie to the panic and incompetence?

I still don’t want Wojo fired - I don’t want to lose this year’s recruiting class. And maybe (doubtful) he’ll out recruit the rest of the Big East coaches by a great enough margin to be consistently be successful. But I’m no longer kidding myself. Coaching wise, he’s not ready for prime time and I don’t think he’ll ever be.

Sir Bernstein,

Is that meat gravy on your shirt?

There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades. Unfortunately, Marquette is learning why that was.

The fundamental difference between a KO, Crean or Buzz and Wojo is that the former three are sublimely intelligent. Wojo sits decidedly lower on the Stanford-Binet scale.

The shell shocked look on his face towards the end of games is telling. 


Death on call

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2020, 10:18:47 AM »
Can you clarify #2?  Wouldn't the best possible result we could've hoped for prior to that mistake being made is an outright stop, wherein we get the ball back tied, and worst case scenario we go to OT if we miss the last shot?

There is absolutely no chance that Butler does anything other than have Kamar Baldwin stand near the center court line with the ball until about 8-10 seconds left and then runs the pick and roll they scored on over and over again down the stretch, getting a shot off around the 4 second mark.  If Baldwin happened to miss (he hadn't been) and Marquette does rebound the ball, they do so with, at best, 2 seconds left.  So sure, Marquette could've got a stop and hit an 88 foot shot to win the game I guess.  But that's an absolute pipe dream scenario.  It just isn't going to happen.
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Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2020, 10:27:00 AM »
Keefe

Love it!!

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2020, 10:48:05 AM »


The best part of all of this, is that Wojo has been just bad enough not to have been offered another gig, and just good enough not to be fired.

Marquette gets to benefit from his top recruiting class and the prime years of his coaching career if he stays.

It couldn't have worked out any better.

g0lden3agle

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2020, 11:10:29 AM »
There is absolutely no chance that Butler does anything other than have Kamar Baldwin stand near the center court line with the ball until about 8-10 seconds left and then runs the pick and roll they scored on over and over again down the stretch, getting a shot off around the 4 second mark.  If Baldwin happened to miss (he hadn't been) and Marquette does rebound the ball, they do so with, at best, 2 seconds left.  So sure, Marquette could've got a stop and hit an 88 foot shot to win the game I guess.  But that's an absolute pipe dream scenario.  It just isn't going to happen.

Yep I had corrected my question while you were responding.  For some reason I thought there was more than 30 seconds left on the shot clock but I was mistaken.

Markusquette

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2020, 11:13:41 AM »
Markus not being Markus.  Hmm, shouldn't a coach realize that and adjust appropriately?  I like Wojo and think he has a number of positives.  But some items are tough to watch as a fan.  Especially on such a well played game by the rest of the team.
Some games we wouldn't have won without Markus, but this game, just having Markus on the court and not having him touch the ball would of probably provided us the victory.

Sure Markus was cold, tired and banged up. Sucked to see things unfold that way. It was nice to see Koby given the ball to take the last shot in regulation to send the game to OT. I'd like to read the comments on Wojo's decision to let him do that had he gone down court and bricked the shot. A player that's consistently received negativity here for his questionable decision-making.

That's a game where the team needs all of the above. Markus hitting his shots and the supporting cast putting their work in. 37 attempts between Anim, Bailey and Koby. Would taking 6 of Markus' final attempts and given them to the other players make the difference? Who knows.

MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2020, 11:31:02 AM »

There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades.

Is 15 years "almost two decades," Crash? I guess, if one really rounds up.

So I guess Tom Izzo's 16 years as an assistant at Northern Michigan and Michigan State also were "almost two decades welded to the bench."

Bruce Weber was an assistant for 18 years, Rick Majerus 12 years, Roy Williams 10 years, Jay Wright 10 years, Mark Few 9 years, Tubby Smith 12 years, Denny Crum 9 years, etc.

Many reasons to rag on Wojo, and I've done a little of it myself. This seems a silly one.

And again, I am NOT comparing Wojo to any of those mentioned, or claiming he is or ever will be a better coach than Izzo, Majerus, etc.
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Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2020, 11:34:53 AM »
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2020, 11:40:15 AM »
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

How many coaches start as a full time assistant at the age of 23?  How many assistants are paid more than a majority of D1 head coaches?
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rocky_warrior

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2020, 11:43:27 AM »
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

Oh Yay! The new talking point is in!  "Guys, this week we're gonna unleash 'Glued to the bench as an assistant'.  That'll show 'em"
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 11:50:07 AM by rocky_warrior »

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2020, 11:49:07 AM »
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.
Yep.  He was working at the pinnacle of college hoops for the best coach of all time.  Why leave that?

Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2020, 11:59:58 AM »
rocky

Would an Arby's coupon reference make you happy?

ATL MU Warrior

Why leave? Maybe a million dollar a year raise and the advancement in his chosen career.

 

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