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Author Topic: The Verdict Is In  (Read 36719 times)

MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2020, 09:01:30 AM »
Mike

SI ran an article in the immediate aftermath of Wojo's hiring. The key point is that K's other assistants had decidedly mixed results as head coaches but that Wojo was set up for success at MU.

Do you feel Wojo delivered on that promise?



https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

I think Wojo gets an Incomplete, Crash. Like some others, I'm concerned that he might never truly deliver, but I'm more patient and optimistic than many.

But this shifting of your goalposts has nothing to do with whether his being on K's bench for more than a decade "proved" something about his ability to be a head coach. All one has to do is take a look at the long list of outstanding coaches who spent double-digit years as an assistant to see that it's silly to try to use that as a mark against Wojo.

One might as well say, "His big cup of ice water proves that he'll never be a good coach."
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Cheeks

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2020, 09:06:01 AM »
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Marcus92

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2020, 09:33:09 AM »
One might as well say, "His big cup of ice water proves that he'll never be a good coach."

You might be onto something. Obviously, anyone who drinks that much water must sweat a lot. Ah-ha, you see? It's so obvious!!! There's only one possible conclusion: Wojo is nervous and lacks the confidence to make tough decisions in big games.
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wildbillsb

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2020, 09:41:06 AM »
You might be onto something. Obviously, anyone who drinks that much water must sweat a lot. Ah-ha, you see? It's so obvious!!! There's only one possible conclusion: Wojo is nervous and lacks the confidence to make tough decisions in big games.

LOL!
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2020, 09:54:30 AM »
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.
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tower912

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2020, 10:09:48 AM »
Wojo has one hole in his time at Marquette.  NCAA success.   When this season is over he will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   He will have made the tourney 3 of the last 4 years.   The year he didn't, he won multiple games in the NIT.    He has recruited high character players, kept MU out of the papers for negative off court activities and has a top 10 class coming in. 
   But, the difference between perceived success and failure is post season record.
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Silkk the Shaka

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2020, 10:25:23 AM »
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.

Agreed. And the one place he worked he played at, and he played for that coach he worked for. That makes the experience even more narrow. And he was a bit of a legend there so had a halo / less accountability than a run of the mill assistant (however small that might be). And that particular place is a bit of a unicorn, with a talent level nearly unrivaled by any other program in the 15 years he was there, making the experience was even less applicable/transferable to a school outside the blue blood group.

So the learning curve is bound to be longer. I just hope he gets himself further up that curve ASAP so Markus can get at least one tourney win. And that he doesn't then take all that he has learned at MU and apply that diversified experience elsewhere.

Pakuni

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2020, 10:26:15 AM »
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.

Jim Boeheim and Phil Martelli.

Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2020, 10:28:56 AM »
Tower

Take out the first year and he is barely .500 winning in the BE. That is not that impressive. Big hole in my book.

Fluff

Exactly, if Wojo had worked the ranks at different gigs over 15 years that is different story. Learning how multiple programs work over 15 years is far different than being a guy carrying Coach K's water bottle.

Elonsmusk

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2020, 10:31:09 AM »
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to.

Yes - Which highlights the fact that the Marquette job/program at the time of his arrival was very attractive.  The article linked by Keefe spells it out quite well.  One sentence particularly gave me a laugh as the author of the article called it like it was:

"Wojciechowski will have to avoid talent attrition; otherwise, the son of a longshoreman, who still keeps his father's hard hat in his house, has zero building or rebuilding to do."

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach

Definitely nice that some of our passionate fanbase has been very patient and forgiving to balance out those of us who became restless, early on.

79Warrior

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2020, 10:34:12 AM »
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to.

He chose not to or was never offered? I personally do not know of a program that actually offered him the gig and he said no thanks.

willie warrior

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2020, 10:36:59 AM »
Wojo has one hole in his time at Marquette.  NCAA success.   When this season is over he will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   He will have made the tourney 3 of the last 4 years.   The year he didn't, he won multiple games in the NIT.    He has recruited high character players, kept MU out of the papers for negative off court activities and has a top 10 class coming in. 
   But, the difference between perceived success and failure is post season record.
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MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2020, 10:37:25 AM »
I think the only thing you can question about Wojo's resume isn't the length of time he spent as an assistant, but the fact that he only played and worked at one school for one coach before he got to Marquette.  The only one on that list that is similar is Mark Few.  Every other coach played or worked at other places, and I think that diversity of experience helps them.  IMO of course.

Weber, too. He was Keady's assistant even longer than Wojo was K's assistant. Some don't like Weber because he hasn't been a consistently good recruiter, but he got Southern Illinois to the Sweet 16, brought Illinois within a few points of a national title, and got Kansas State to the Elite 8. All after spending 18 years sitting next to Keady on Purdue's bench.

Of course, one could argue that Wojo would have been well served to have spent a few years at a school like Southern Illinois, learning how to be a head coach, before taking a P6 job.

Wojo has one hole in his time at Marquette.  NCAA success.   When this season is over he will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   He will have made the tourney 3 of the last 4 years.   The year he didn't, he won multiple games in the NIT.    He has recruited high character players, kept MU out of the papers for negative off court activities and has a top 10 class coming in. 
   But, the difference between perceived success and failure is post season record.

Agreed, tower.

Nevertheless, I do think it is fair to expect a postseason win -- or three, or more -- in 6 years as a head coach at Marquette. Each of his four predecessors did so, and in less time.

Bottom Line for me:

++ Get into the tourney, get to the Sweet 16, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will be back in full-on Projo mode.

++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain in leaning Projo mode.

++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance, and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode.

++ Fail to reach the tourney, and I'll be leaning Nojo for the first time.

Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March ... but to NEVER win in March suggests something more than simply bad luck.

Frankly, I can't name a single coach I'd consider "good" who failed to win an NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years at a major program.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2020, 10:50:38 AM »
Weber, too. He was Keady's assistant even longer than Wojo was K's assistant. Some don't like Weber because he hasn't been a consistently good recruiter, but he got Southern Illinois to the Sweet 16, brought Illinois within a few points of a national title, and got Kansas State to the Elite 8. All after spending 18 years sitting next to Keady on Purdue's bench.

Of course, one could argue that Wojo would have been well served to have spent a few years at a school like Southern Illinois, learning how to be a head coach, before taking a P6 job.

Well yeah.  That's the difference.


Jim Boeheim and Phil Martelli.

Boeheim yes.  Martelli no. 
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cheebs09

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2020, 10:54:30 AM »
He chose not to or was never offered? I personally do not know of a program that actually offered him the gig and he said no thanks.

I thought when we hired him, it was said he turned down Dayton. Which really made me trust his judgement.

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2020, 11:13:00 AM »
Tower

Take out the first year and he is barely .500 winning in the BE. That is not that impressive. Big hole in my book.

If you take out his first year and this year (since we're less than half way through the BE season), Marquette has 39 Big East wins.  That's the fourth highest total of all Big East teams, behind Nova, Xavier, and Seton Hall.  I'd hope Marquette could eventually flip with Seton Hall and move into the top 3, but that seems about right to me.  I know some people here think this program should be winning 14+ Big East games and be within 1 game of a BE title every single year, get into the S16 every year with a shot at a FF every couple years, etc.  But realistically we're about the 3rd best program in the Big East.
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Pakuni

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2020, 11:19:10 AM »
Well yeah.  That's the difference.


Boeheim yes.  Martelli no.

Because he worked one year as a grad assistant at the D-III school where he played?
OK.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2020, 11:23:49 AM »
Because he worked one year as a grad assistant at the D-III school where he played?
OK.

Right.  That was my whole premise.  That Wojo played and coached at one school under one coach before leaving for Marquette.

So when you bring up a coach who played at a different school, under a different coach, that is outside the premise. 
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Galway Eagle

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2020, 11:26:51 AM »
Right.  That was my whole premise.  That Wojo played and coached at one school under one coach before leaving for Marquette.

So when you bring up a coach who played at a different school, under a different coach, that is outside the premise.

He played a season in Poland. So that's two coaches.
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hairy worthen

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2020, 11:40:52 AM »
If you take out his first year and this year (since we're less than half way through the BE season), Marquette has 39 Big East wins.  That's the fourth highest total of all Big East teams, behind Nova, Xavier, and Seton Hall.  I'd hope Marquette could eventually flip with Seton Hall and move into the top 3, but that seems about right to me.  I know some people here think this program should be winning 14+ Big East games and be within 1 game of a BE title every single year, get into the S16 every year with a shot at a FF every couple years, etc.  But realistically we're about the 3rd best program in the Big East.
If you leave his first year in and take out last year (which ended in a disaster) his record is 35-45 not counting this season. You can cherry pick the stats any way you want. Maybe if you took out all the games they lost on Saturdays and all the games they lost wearing the baby blues, and all the games they lost by under 5 points you could really get that win total up there.

wadesworld

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2020, 11:42:41 AM »
If you leave his first year in and take out last year (which ended in a disaster) his record is 35-45 not counting this season. You can cherry pick the stats any way you want. Maybe if you took out all the games they lost on Saturdays and all the games they lost wearing the baby blues, and all the games they lost by under 5 points you could really get that win total up there.

I didn't cherry pick anything.  I looked at the years Goose referenced and didn't include the less than half season the BE has played so far this year.  If I included that I believe the results would be the same, as Seton Hall and Nova are 2 of the 3 schools with more wins than us as it is and nobody else has enough wins to pass us this year.
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keefe

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2020, 11:46:37 AM »
I think Wojo gets an Incomplete, Crash. Like some others, I'm concerned that he might never truly deliver, but I'm more patient and optimistic than many.

But this shifting of your goalposts has nothing to do with whether his being on K's bench for more than a decade "proved" something about his ability to be a head coach. All one has to do is take a look at the long list of outstanding coaches who spent double-digit years as an assistant to see that it's silly to try to use that as a mark against Wojo.

One might as well say, "His big cup of ice water proves that he'll never be a good coach."

I am hopeful that he can start delivering post season success which, at the end of the day, is the ultimate performance measurement.

I believe the correct term for the bolded section is, "welded to the bench."





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Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2020, 11:48:10 AM »
wades

He is a .500 coach in the BE, that is a fact. Sub .500 if you count his first season.

keefe

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2020, 11:49:57 AM »
The guy could have left for other gigs multiple times at Duke, he chose not to.

Jams

Is this a fact? I know you are probably the most plugged in Scooper into the big tent of sports so you likely must have some insight the rest of us do not.

The article I posted mentioned that when Wojo did leave Duke it was for an exceptional opportunity. I have no knowledge of his being considered for anything prior to leaving for MU.

Is the "welded to the bench" narrative somehow wanting?


Death on call

hairy worthen

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2020, 11:50:15 AM »
I didn't cherry pick anything.  I looked at the years Goose referenced and didn't include the less than half season the BE has played so far this year.  If I included that I believe the results would be the same, as Seton Hall and Nova are 2 of the 3 schools with more wins than us as it is and nobody else has enough wins to pass us this year.

Ok, correct, but initially tower took out the first year which still counts on his record like it or not.