MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: DienerTime34 on December 02, 2019, 11:52:31 AM

Title: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: DienerTime34 on December 02, 2019, 11:52:31 AM
You'd see an AP poll this decade where DePaul was receiving votes and MU had zero? Read it and weep: https://apnews.com/APTop25CollegeBasketballPoll
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 02, 2019, 11:53:54 AM
And ABD ranked.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Silent Verbal on December 02, 2019, 12:07:57 PM
Kudos to them for taking care of business at Minnesota.  If they can beat Texas Tech on Wednesday, they’ll have a real shot at the Top 25.  Also, Butler with a strong showing in the early season.  Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 02, 2019, 12:11:34 PM
Kudos to them for taking care of business at Minnesota.  If they can beat Texas Tech on Wednesday, they’ll have a real shot at the Top 25.  Also, Butler with a strong showing in the early season.  Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?

We were a 5 seed last year...
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 02, 2019, 12:18:02 PM
Kudos to them for taking care of business at Minnesota.  If they can beat Texas Tech on Wednesday, they’ll have a real shot at the Top 25.  Also, Butler with a strong showing in the early season.  Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?

Generally how it goes when you hire former assistants.  If Stan were to be the new HC tomorrow, I think he'd have a good chance of keeping the entire incoming class.  Rebuilds are too broad of a spectrum to say that they should all happen fast.  Each one is unique and should be treated as such.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 02, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Maybe we should wait until there are college games played after 12/1 to decide we’re worse than Butler and Xavier.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 02, 2019, 12:24:46 PM
Maybe we should wait until there are college games played after 12/1 to decide we’re worse than Butler and Xavier.

Nope. This is set in stone.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: lurch91 on December 02, 2019, 01:19:15 PM
Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?

Depends on the talent left on the team too.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: tower912 on December 02, 2019, 01:20:57 PM
Probably could have stopped at the title.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TAMU Eagle on December 02, 2019, 01:22:37 PM
Kudos to them for taking care of business at Minnesota.  If they can beat Texas Tech on Wednesday, they’ll have a real shot at the Top 25.  Also, Butler with a strong showing in the early season.  Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?

?

What rebuilds? Jordan took over a team coming off a 4 seed. Steele took over a team coming off a 1 seed.

Also, you may want to wait until they play some real competition before crowning them. Maybe OT victories over Missouri and Connecticut and wins against Minnesota and Stanford do it for you but I need some more convincing. I think we finish ahead of both when all is said and done though I think Xavier will be right there with us.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: muguru on December 02, 2019, 02:34:26 PM
?

What rebuilds? Jordan took over a team coming off a 4 seed. Steele took over a team coming off a 1 seed.

Also, you may want to wait until they play some real competition before crowning them. Maybe OT victories over Missouri and Connecticut and wins against Minnesota and Stanford do it for you but I need some more convincing. I think we finish ahead of both when all is said and done though I think Xavier will be right there with us.

Once Depaul starts playing Big east games against teams that have seen them, and know them, they will come back down to earth. This is a mirage...nothing more. For DePaul fans(both of them), it's like winning the national title, I get that. Texas Tech will take care of them and everyone will stop talking about them.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 02, 2019, 02:47:41 PM
Once Depaul starts playing Big east games against teams that have seen them, and know them, they will come back down to earth. This is a mirage...nothing more. For DePaul fans(both of them), it's like winning the national title, I get that. Texas Tech will take care of them and everyone will stop talking about them.

Not so sure on that... TTech lost to Iowa (who DePaul beat) and lost to a Creighton team playing around DePaul's level (or maybe a bit worse honestly) this year. Add the fact that it's at DePaul's gym and it will likely have the most juice to a home game in a decade, I could easily see DePaul pull off the upset.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: willie warrior on December 02, 2019, 04:12:34 PM
You'd see an AP poll this decade where DePaul was receiving votes and MU had zero? Read it and weep: https://apnews.com/APTop25CollegeBasketballPoll
DePaul cant wait to lunch on Wojo!!!!
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: bilsu on December 02, 2019, 04:17:58 PM
Once Depaul starts playing Big east games against teams that have seen them, and know them, they will come back down to earth. This is a mirage...nothing more. For DePaul fans(both of them), it's like winning the national title, I get that. Texas Tech will take care of them and everyone will stop talking about them.
DePaul won seven Big East games last year and I suspect they will win more than seven this year.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 02, 2019, 05:42:44 PM
DePaul cant wait to lunch on Wojo!!!!

Very cool.

Go Marquette and go Mazos Burgers.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 02, 2019, 05:46:28 PM
Nope. This is set in stone.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/10hexADl3Kl6SY/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 07:36:12 PM
Kudos to them for taking care of business at Minnesota.  If they can beat Texas Tech on Wednesday, they’ll have a real shot at the Top 25.  Also, Butler with a strong showing in the early season.  Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?

Same system, hired existing coach.  Huge difference from going outside.  What did he inherit vs Wojo?  Etc etc
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Loose Cannon on December 04, 2019, 11:43:27 AM
Maybe we should wait until there are college games played after 12/1 to decide we’re worse than Butler and Xavier.

Nothing wrong in living in the present its part of our lives.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: mubb3434 on December 04, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
If we win out non-conference (which I think we will), are there really going to be people upset with that? I’ll take that all day...Loss to a top 5 team and a loss on the road with wins vs. Purdue, Davidson (N), USC (N) and Kansas State (A). Pretty good non conference resume...
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 12:03:31 PM
We were a 5 seed last year...
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: GB Warrior on December 04, 2019, 12:04:27 PM
It's all going according to plan, since we have exactly as many votes as SLU
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 04, 2019, 12:05:28 PM
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.

Sucks the Hausers quit after the Nova game.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Silent Verbal on December 04, 2019, 12:06:30 PM
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.

And how!
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BM1090 on December 04, 2019, 12:13:58 PM
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.

The facts are that even with the collapse, team falling apart, etc. that we were a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament last year.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 12:21:53 PM
The facts are that even with the collapse, team falling apart, etc. that we were a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament last year.
Alright..... hang the banner?  I really couldn't care less given the taste left in my mouth thinking about last season.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: baumu on December 04, 2019, 12:33:03 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TAMU Eagle on December 04, 2019, 12:46:46 PM
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.

Actually the committee said we were the top 5 seed.

Getting destroyed by mid-major Murray State is a fact. "Consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament" is an opinion.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 04, 2019, 01:09:08 PM
?

What rebuilds? Jordan took over a team coming off a 4 seed. Steele took over a team coming off a 1 seed.

Also, you may want to wait until they play some real competition before crowning them. Maybe OT victories over Missouri and Connecticut and wins against Minnesota and Stanford do it for you but I need some more convincing. I think we finish ahead of both when all is said and done though I think Xavier will be right there with us.

Let's have a little context and honesty around this statement:

Steele took over a team that lost JP Macura, Traveon Blueitt, Kaiser Gates, Sean O'Mara, Kareem Kanter.  He inherited less than Wojo did.

It is what it is - Steele and Jordan have done a better job than Wojo.  No need to lie about it, distort realities, and make excuses. 

We are Top 30 right now, and this is acceptable for MU given the reality that Wojo is a mediocre bench coach.  Hopefully we can maintain this 30ish ranking for the year and get a 5/6 seed in tournament.  I'd be happy with that.  Getting an NCAA win would be icing on the cake. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 01:11:04 PM
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.

Consensus most over-seeded team in the Tournament? What? Lol.

The facts are that even with the collapse, team falling apart, etc. that we were a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament last year.

Yup.

Alright..... hang the banner?  I really couldn't care less given the taste left in my mouth thinking about last season.

So you care about the “facts” (which aren’t actually facts) when they fit an agenda but when they don’t you couldn’t care less because of a taste in your mouth. Fair enough. The “fact” is that if MU’s rebuild is still going on (the post I replied to) then so are Xavier’s and Butler’s who haven’t come close to a 5 seed with their current coaches, which he post implied that there was no need for a rebuild for those programs they’re just rolling right along like nothing changed at all.

All this to say, there’s a lot of game left. Or maybe we really should just cancel the season we know Butler and Xavier are better than MU based on 7-9 games played against mostly cupcake opponents. Fair enough.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 01:13:10 PM
Let's have a little context and honesty around this statement:

Steele took over a team that lost JP Macura, Traveon Blueitt, Kaiser Gates, Sean O'Mara, Kareem Kanter.  He inherited less than Wojo did.

It is what it is - Steele and Jordan have done a better job than Wojo.  No need to lie about it, distort realities, and make excuses. 

We are Top 30 right now, and this is acceptable for MU given the reality that Wojo is a mediocre bench coach.  Hopefully we can maintain this 30ish ranking for the year and get a 5/6 seed in tournament.  I'd be happy with that.  Getting an NCAA win would be icing on the cake.

Lol! Steele inherited less than Wojo? Good God you are even more delusional than anyone thought.

In what way have Steele or Jordan been better than Wojo? Because KenPom says they’re better than us 8 games into the year? The horror!
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 04, 2019, 01:15:25 PM
Actually the committee said we were the top 5 seed.

Getting destroyed by mid-major Murray State is a fact. "Consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament" is an opinion.

Especially when Wisconsin lost as the same seed by roughly the same margin in far fewer possessions.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 01:22:38 PM
Especially when Wisconsin lost as the same seed by roughly the same margin in far fewer possessions.
Bad Wisconsin under Gard is our barometer now? Sheesh, I'd personally like to shoot well above that.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 01:23:40 PM
Actually the committee said we were the top 5 seed.

Getting destroyed by mid-major Murray State is a fact. "Consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament" is an opinion.
Opinion?  No.  Hyperbole?  Sure.  We were seen as an overrated 5 seed.  Googling "overrated teams march madness 2019", and we show up in a majority of those articles.

Also your committee comment makes no sense.  The committee agrees with the committee's decision to make us a 5 seed therefore we weren't seen as overrated?  The term "overrated" refers to how we were initially "rated" by the committee.  Surely you understood that.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 01:31:03 PM
Let's have a little context and honesty around this statement:

Steele took over a team that lost JP Macura, Traveon Blueitt, Kaiser Gates, Sean O'Mara, Kareem Kanter.  He inherited less than Wojo did.
]

Nope. Steele had two starters from a #1 seed (Marshall and Goodin), along with 6thman/former top 30 recruit Paul Scruggs, as part of his returning team.
The only player Wojo had returning who averaged more than 15 mpg the previous season was your pal Derrick Wilson. Next was Juan Anderson.

Really, it's not close.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Lazar's Headband on December 04, 2019, 01:31:40 PM
Ja Morant was a 1st team AA, #2 pick in the NBA draft, and a leading contender for ROY.

I feel like too many people are ignoring these facts.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
Opinion?  No.  Hyperbole?  Sure.  We were seen as an overrated 5 seed.  Googling "overrated teams march madness 2019", and we show up in a majority of those articles.


A collection of opinions is still an opinion.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 01:35:54 PM
Let's have a little context and honesty around this statement:

Steele took over a team that lost JP Macura, Traveon Blueitt, Kaiser Gates, Sean O'Mara, Kareem Kanter.  He inherited less than Wojo did.

It is what it is - Steele and Jordan have done a better job than Wojo.  No need to lie about it, distort realities, and make excuses. 

We are Top 30 right now, and this is acceptable for MU given the reality that Wojo is a mediocre bench coach.  Hopefully we can maintain this 30ish ranking for the year and get a 5/6 seed in tournament.  I'd be happy with that.  Getting an NCAA win would be icing on the cake.

Context:

Wojo inherited a roster that included rising sophomore Deonte Burton who had averaged 7 points and 2 rebounds per game, rising senior Derrick Wilson who had just averaged 5 points, 4 rebounds, and 4 assists per game, rising sophomore JaJuan Johnson who had just averaged 4 points, 1 rebound, and 1 assist per game, rising senior Juan Anderson who had just averaged 3 points, 3 rebounds, and 1 assist per game, rising junior Steve Taylor who had just averaged 2.5 points and 3 rebounds per game, rising sophomore John "Magic" Dawson who had just averaged 2 points, 1 rebound, and 1 assist per game, rising redshirt freshman Duane Wilson who had just sat out the entire season with injury, and a half of a season from rising sophomore Luke Fischer who had just sat out after transferring from Indiana on a team that finished 6th in the Big East and missed the NIT (meaning the players that were playing in front of them were, well, not very good).  He also lost his entire recruiting class due to the fact that he had been recruiting to Duke and not to Marquette.

Steele inherited a roster that included rising junior Quentin Gooden who had just averaged 9 points, 3 rebounds, and 5 assists per game, rising sophomore Naji Marshall who had just averaged 8 points, 4 rebounds, and 2 assists per game, rising junior Tyrique Jones who had just averaged 7 points and 4.5 rebounds per game, rising sophomore Paul Scruggs who had just averaged 5 points, 2 rebounds, and 2 assists per game from a team that won the Big East and was a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament (meaning the players in front of them were, well, very good).  He was able to keep 4 star (ESPN)/3 star (247) Keonte Kennedy and 3 star Dontarius James in his recruiting class given that he was recruiting them to Xavier the year before.

Context.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 01:39:54 PM
Wojo did manage to hang onto Sandy Cohen...but yeah.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 01:41:05 PM

A collection of opinions is still an opinion.
A collection of opinions (all of them being the same) is a different way to say "consensus" which is what I originally said.  Therefore since you're agreeing that "a collection of opinions had us as one of the most overrated teams in the tournament", my original statement was indeed a fact.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 04, 2019, 01:44:45 PM
Oh good, were having this discussion again.  We going with what would have happened if Chones didn't leave, or what would have happened if Dom didn't get hurt tomorrow, since apparently some think that it will go differently the 87th time we have the same debate.  Spoiler alert: ners is going to dig in, never admit he wrong, and end up banned.  Herman will talk about how Wojo screwed over Deonte, and then everyone will give all the articles where he expressly says the opposite.  Can we lock this now?
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 04, 2019, 01:52:46 PM
And were the consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament and blew the conference and got destroyed by a mid-major Murray State.

It would be disingenuous not to include all the facts.

Nope, not the consensus over seeded team. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 04, 2019, 01:53:46 PM
Alright..... hang the banner?  I really couldn't care less given the taste left in my mouth thinking about last season.


Then don’t think about.  Get out of the past.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 04, 2019, 01:54:15 PM
Alright..... hang the banner?  I really couldn't care less given the taste left in my mouth thinking about last season.

Have you ever thought about paying more than $5 for a pitcher? Might leave a better taste in your mouth.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 01:54:58 PM
Wojo did manage to hang onto Sandy Cohen...but yeah.

Sorry, forgot about that.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MUCam on December 04, 2019, 02:13:22 PM
Probably could have stopped at the title.

Can this please get some love?

If hilarious Scoop One Liners was a NCAA Bracket, I'd rank this a solidly overrated five seed.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 04, 2019, 02:41:58 PM
Lol! Steele inherited less than Wojo? Good God you are even more delusional than anyone thought.

In what way have Steele or Jordan been better than Wojo? Because KenPom says they’re better than us 8 games into the year? The horror!

Well, Steele in Year 2 has Xavier checking in at 27 in KenPom.  Wojo finished 97th.  So..there's that.  #delusional



Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 02:42:51 PM
Well, Steele in Year 2 has Xavier checking in at 27 in KenPom.  Wojo finished 97th.  So..there's that.  #delusional

Cancel the season.  Hand Louisville the National Title.  Give Izzo and K another Final Four.  No need to play this one out on the court folks.

Glad you backed away from your claim that Wojo inherited more than Steele did, LOL!  Talk about being delusional, distorting reality, and lying...
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
Let's also remember that Steele was an assistant.  Always easier to take over a program as an assistant.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Retire0 on December 04, 2019, 03:11:16 PM
Nope. This is set in stone.

This is the way.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 04, 2019, 03:12:57 PM


[/quote]
Is one of the Hausers going to be sitting on the wing wide open waving for the ball while Markus continues to dribble with his head down and 2+ defenders completely swarming him?

Painful to watch 4 guys play as a team and one hunt his shot no matter what. I’d guess about 40% of his passes come when he’s jumping and realizes it’s impossible to get his shot off so he has to throw a last second pass out of a shot.

Tip of the cap to you on this one Wades - from the thread titled "How many times"  If only our head coach could have seen the potential problems this foreshadowed.  Even you saw it.  But nope, he instead encouraged more shooting by Markus via "the ultimate green light." 

End of the day Wojo's most die hard supporters were sure Year 5 would be the year patience would be rewarded and all would be revealed - what it revealed was an epic failure of leadership.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Herman Cain on December 04, 2019, 03:22:11 PM
Let's have a little context and honesty around this statement:

Steele took over a team that lost JP Macura, Traveon Blueitt, Kaiser Gates, Sean O'Mara, Kareem Kanter.  He inherited less than Wojo did.

It is what it is - Steele and Jordan have done a better job than Wojo.  No need to lie about it, distort realities, and make excuses. 

We are Top 30 right now, and this is acceptable for MU given the reality that Wojo is a mediocre bench coach.  Hopefully we can maintain this 30ish ranking for the year and get a 5/6 seed in tournament.  I'd be happy with that.  Getting an NCAA win would be icing on the cake.
I agree with this analysis.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 03:31:52 PM
Have you ever thought about paying more than $5 for a pitcher? Might leave a better taste in your mouth.
Sobelman's and Miss Katie's would go out of business.  My name honors them.  Wojo is a disgrace to Sobelman's and Miss Katie's (no troll).
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 03:36:07 PM


Tip of the cap to you on this one Wades - from the thread titled "How many times"  If only our head coach could have seen the potential problems this foreshadowed.  Even you saw it.  But nope, he instead encouraged more shooting by Markus via "the ultimate green light." 

End of the day Wojo's most die hard supporters were sure Year 5 would be the year patience would be rewarded and all would be revealed - what it revealed was an epic failure of leadership.

Aka “I got dunked on worse than I dunk on others at the Rec Center so I need to totally redirect the discussion to get the attention back on me.”
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BM1090 on December 04, 2019, 03:41:10 PM
Oh look, the board is ruined again.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 04, 2019, 03:53:26 PM
Aka “I got dunked on worse than I dunk on others at the Rec Center so I need to totally redirect the discussion to get the attention back on me.”

Okay, let me spell it out for you:  You and Wojo's other slurpers are drooling over next year's recruiting class.  Why?  Because according to you and the other slurpers, Top 100 recruits don't matter.  As for landing Dawson?  So what?  Wojo landed Henry, a player ranked higher than Dawson, and we missed the NIT and finished 97th.

Don't let this fact get in the way of your John Dodds caliber excuse making:
No Marquette coach has inherited more Top 100 players than Wojo:  He inherited 7, 5 of which were underclassmen. 

Sadly he totally mismanaged what he inherited, just as he mismanaged Markus/Hausers - that's on him - and the "results" speak for themselves.


Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 04, 2019, 03:55:25 PM
Oh look, the board is ruined again.

This.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 03:59:38 PM
Okay, let me spell it out for you:  You and Wojo's other slurpers are drooling over next year's recruiting class.  Why?  Because according to you and the other slurpers, Top 100 recruits don't matter.  As for landing Dawson?  So what?  Wojo landed Henry, a player ranked higher than Dawson, and we missed the NIT and finished 97th.

Don't let this fact get in the way of your John Dodds caliber excuse making:
No Marquette coach has inherited more Top 100 players than Wojo:  He inherited 7, 5 of which were underclassmen. 

Sadly he totally mismanaged what he inherited, just as he mismanaged Markus/Hausers - that's on him - and the "results" speak for themselves.

Yet the incredible coach we had in place before him couldn't figure out how to win with all those top 100 guys either.  Sad.

And, of those 7 top 100 guys he inherited, how many finished here?  And how many of those seven top 100 recruits he inherited had the career you'd expect from a top 100 recruit?

How many of Wojo's high level high school recruits panned out?  Not many.

But hey, let's forget what the players actually produced.  What does that matter?

Just like we can cancel the season, KenPom says Xavier and Butler are better than Marquette.  Forget the last 30 games of the season.  We know what happens.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 04, 2019, 04:02:47 PM
Oh look, the board is ruined again.

This.

Translation:  Someone shares a different opinion than me.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 04:09:09 PM
Yet the incredible coach we had in place before him couldn't figure out how to win with all those top 100 guys either.  Sad.
Come on now, Buzz quit in the last year because he was fed up with Marquette (not condoning this). 

However, that incredible coach actually DID win with us - big time.  We were a lot more relevant then than we are now - especially on the NCAA stage which is objectively the most important part of any college basketball season.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: WithoutBias on December 04, 2019, 04:11:34 PM
What kind of life does someone have to live to get banned from multiple boards multiple times yet still keep coming back?  I mean seriously, who looks in the mirror after being banned...3? 4? 5? times and say, "You know what, I think I'm going to try to get around my MUScoop ban today!"  I mean, isn't being banned once enough to tell you, "Hey, maybe it's time to reevaluate how I'm handling myself?"  Then to come back and do it over...and over...and over...and over...

Whatever, if MUScoop makes your life complete (and it must) I guess that's cool and I hope you're able to enjoy this happiness that it brings you.  But sheesh do the people who have about 5 different usernames because they can't keep from getting themselves banned make it hard to come back and read.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 04, 2019, 04:15:16 PM
Translation:  Someone shares a different opinion than me.

No. Not it at all. You're trying to relitigate discussions that ended years ago. Next up, Dawson and Derrick.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: willie warrior on December 04, 2019, 04:17:23 PM
Kudos to them for taking care of business at Minnesota.  If they can beat Texas Tech on Wednesday, they’ll have a real shot at the Top 25.  Also, Butler with a strong showing in the early season.  Butler and Xavier don’t seem to have missed a beat despite their coaches leaving.  Maybe rebuilds don’t need to last five years and counting, hey?
How dare you blaspheme our outstanding coach. Just because others in the conference are doing better is no reason to doubt the sage of Dukedom.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 04:19:06 PM
Come on now, Buzz quit in the last year because he was fed up with Marquette (not condoning this). 

However, that incredible coach actually DID win with us - big time.  We were a lot more relevant then than we are now - especially on the NCAA stage which is objectively the most important part of any college basketball season.

Ah.  Okay, got it.  So all those incredible weapons that the guy who quit on his team and intentionally threw a season left Wojo must've transferred up and really done amazing things when they left the program, right?

Wait, nope.  One transferred to a high major (Burton) and had a nice 5th year senior season (when he would've already graduated Marquette), one transferred to a high major and was just a guy (Wilson), and 3 transferred down to mid/low majors (Taylor, Cohen, Dawson).

Juan had 2 years prior to Buzz quitting in which he did nothing.  Toddler decided he didn't want to show up to workouts with the team.

AKA Wojo inherited one nice piece, and that piece happened to be an in city kid whose mom passed away during that period.  Wow.  What a full cupboard.  I take it all back, any competent coach would've steamrolled through the Big East with what he was left with.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: willie warrior on December 04, 2019, 04:19:15 PM
Very cool.

Go Marquette and go Mazos Burgers.
DePaul cant wait to toast Wojos ass, which is something the admin will never do.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BM1090 on December 04, 2019, 04:19:58 PM
Translation:  Someone shares a different opinion than me.

Not at all. I disagree with a lot of posters both here and in the Superbar. I still find the board readable because they discuss relevant topics in a mostly objective manner.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: willie warrior on December 04, 2019, 04:20:50 PM
Actually the committee said we were the top 5 seed.

Getting destroyed by mid-major Murray State is a fact. "Consensus most over-seeded team in the tournament" is an opinion.
It is a damn good opinion.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: wildbillsb on December 04, 2019, 04:24:25 PM
Aka “I got dunked on worse than I dunk on others at the Rec Center so I need to totally redirect the discussion to get the attention back on me.”

I dunked at the Rec Center (the Old Gm in my day) once.  Really hurt my hand, though.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 04, 2019, 04:24:45 PM
It is a damn good opinion.

You need to get laid
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 04:26:46 PM
You need to get laid


willie's willie aint up to it anymore.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on December 04, 2019, 04:27:33 PM
Oh good, were having this discussion again.  We going with what would have happened if Chones didn't leave, or what would have happened if Dom didn't get hurt tomorrow, since apparently some think that it will go differently the 87th time we have the same debate.  Spoiler alert: ners is going to dig in, never admit he wrong, and end up banned.  Herman will talk about how Wojo screwed over Deonte, and then everyone will give all the articles where he expressly says the opposite.  Can we lock this now?

That's the definition of crazy, keep repeating the same thing hoping for a different outcome.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 04:28:08 PM
The guy needs a burger from Mazos.  Bad.

Could really treat himself and hit Leon's for a butter pecan cone after if he really wants to get wild with it.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: wildbillsb on December 04, 2019, 04:29:00 PM
You need to get laid

I got laid at the Rec Center (the Old Gym in my day) once.  Hurt my hand doing that, too.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 04, 2019, 04:29:28 PM
The guy needs a burger from Mazos.  Bad.

Could really treat himself and hit Leon's for a butter pecan cone after if he really wants to get wild with it.

Mazos isn’t a bad burger but I can’t go there anymore.  Too much negativity and anger
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 04, 2019, 04:30:06 PM
I got laid at the Rec Center (the Old Gym in my day) once.  Hurt my hand doing that, too.

Rec Centers are truly incredible places
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 04:44:32 PM
Ah.  Okay, got it.  So all those incredible weapons that the guy who quit on his team and intentionally threw a season left Wojo must've transferred up and really done amazing things when they left the program, right?

Wait, nope.  One transferred to a high major (Burton) and had a nice 5th year senior season (when he would've already graduated Marquette), one transferred to a high major and was just a guy (Wilson), and 3 transferred down to mid/low majors (Taylor, Cohen, Dawson).

Juan had 2 years prior to Buzz quitting in which he did nothing.  Toddler decided he didn't want to show up to workouts with the team.

AKA Wojo inherited one nice piece, and that piece happened to be an in city kid whose mom passed away during that period.  Wow.  What a full cupboard.  I take it all back, any competent coach would've steamrolled through the Big East with what he was left with.
Bare, not bare.  What's the relevance of this argument anymore anyway for Wojo supporters?  (Please don't take that as a concession to your counterargument - because I know we'd go back and forth until we are out of breath). 

Next year will be year 7.  We are approaching 2 full recruiting cycles.  We are approaching a decade.  The man has to win, and win in the tournament as well, regardless of circumstances at this point.  Any excuse, anomaly, circumstance that can be made today came about (directly or indirectly) from Wojo himself.  The proverbial "he's made his bed now he has to sleep in it".  And he ain't doing a good job of sleeping.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 04, 2019, 04:46:21 PM
Year Six and zero votes in the poll is not a good look.  I don't know how that's a positive trajectory following last year.  I guess we haven't had two starters quit yet, at least.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 04:51:46 PM
Year Six and zero votes in the poll is not a good look.  I don't know how that's a positive trajectory following last year.  I guess we haven't had two starters quit yet, at least.
It's those zany Hausers!!  They sure foiled Wojo's master plan.  Just as we were about to make a Final Four too!  Pay no attention to the Murray State result, nor the entire month of February.  Just blips on the radar on Wojo's trajectory to stardom!



/s
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 04, 2019, 04:59:07 PM
I can’t believe people are arguing about votes in the AP poll on December 3rd.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BM1090 on December 04, 2019, 05:03:58 PM
It's those zany Hausers!!  They sure foiled Wojo's master plan.  Just as we were about to make a Final Four too!  Pay no attention to the Murray State result, nor the entire month of February.  Just blips on the radar on Wojo's trajectory to stardom!

The end of year 5 sucked. No doubt. But it was still our best year under Wojo. That's the trajectory.

Year 2 was better than year 1. Year 3 was better than Year 2. Year 4 was a slight step back from Year 3. But year 5 was better than year 3 and 4.

The trajectory is up. We have 5 data points. The arrow is pointing up. Let's see where we are at the end of this year. I just don't understand the point of debating this now. If we miss the tournament this year, even after losing 2 starters, I think most of us would say it's time for a change. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand debating on a game-to-game basis.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: THRILLHO on December 04, 2019, 05:10:47 PM
Translation:  Someone shares a different opinion than me.
I'm not even following this argument, but you are the absolute worst.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Herman Cain on December 04, 2019, 05:21:43 PM
Ah.  Okay, got it.  So all those incredible weapons that the guy who quit on his team and intentionally threw a season left Wojo must've transferred up and really done amazing things when they left the program, right?

Wait, nope.  One transferred to a high major (Burton) and had a nice 5th year senior season (when he would've already graduated Marquette), one transferred to a high major and was just a guy (Wilson), and 3 transferred down to mid/low majors (Taylor, Cohen, Dawson).

Juan had 2 years prior to Buzz quitting in which he did nothing.  Toddler decided he didn't want to show up to workouts with the team.

AKA Wojo inherited one nice piece, and that piece happened to be an in city kid whose mom passed away during that period.  Wow.  What a full cupboard.  I take it all back, any competent coach would've steamrolled through the Big East with what he was left with.
There was plenty enough talent as Mr Elonsmusk has pointed out. The problem is our coach had no experience as a college head coach and didn’t know how to properly put together a cohesive strategy for winning in his first year.

Deonte is in the NBA now and was Coming off a freshman season where he made The All Big East freshman team. Wojo was inexperienced and ran him off , contrary to the PR around this case.

Duane played an important role on our team beating Villanova and making the NCAA tournament. He was the starting point guard for Texas A and M when they  made it into the top ten prior to his injury there.

Luke was also a key factor in our NCAA team and had a solid career and is now doing very well in the highest Euro League

JJJ had a solid career and was a key factor in our NCAA run

Juan Anderson was recently invited to the Warriors training camp and his been on their G league team the last two years

Sandy Cohen playing in the top European League

John Dawson has made the Charlotte Hornets G League team 3 years in a row

ST jr playing in Europe doing well this season

Even Derrick has played in Europe 4 years in a row

Todd Mayo made G league before he imploded for good

Matt Carlino who was Mayos replacement made All Big East and was in G League and played in Europe
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 05:31:14 PM
I can’t believe people are arguing about votes in the AP poll on December 3rd.

Exactly.  It's embarrassing.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 05:36:18 PM
There was plenty enough talent as Mr Elonsmusk has pointed out. The problem is our coach had no experience as a college head coach and didn’t know how to properly put together a cohesive strategy for winning in his first year.

Deonte is in the NBA now and was Coming off a freshman season where he made The All Big East freshman team. Wojo was inexperienced and ran him off , contrary to the PR around this case.

Duane played an important role on our team beating Villanova and making the NCAA tournament. He was the starting point guard for Texas A and M when they  made it into the top ten prior to his injury there.

Luke was also a key factor in our NCAA team and had a solid career and is now doing very well in the highest Euro League

JJJ had a solid career and was a key factor in our NCAA run

Juan Anderson was recently invited to the Warriors training camp and his been on their G league team the last two years

Sandy Cohen playing in the top European League

John Dawson has made the Charlotte Hornets G League team 3 years in a row

ST jr playing in Europe doing well this season

Even Derrick has played in Europe 4 years in a row

Todd Mayo made G league before he imploded for good

Matt Carlino who was Mayos replacement made All Big East and was in G League and played in Europe

I'm glad these players were good enough to go where teams would have them 5 years after they graduated college.  Good for them.

That doesn't change the fact that there was a total of one high major quality contributor.  And that one did so in his fifth season, which he wouldn't have gotten had he not transferred away following the death of his mother.  I'll even be generous and give you JaJuan, who again was just a guy.

If people want to whine and cry about Wojo have at it.  But at least do so for legitimate reasons.  Not being able to roll through the Big East with Derrick Wilson, Duane Wilson, Juan Anderson, JaJuan Johnson, Sandy Cohen, Luke Fischer, Steve Taylor, and Deonte Burton isn't really one of them.  Nor is not receiving votes on December 4, or being behind Butler and Xavier in KenPom on December 4.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Silent Verbal on December 04, 2019, 05:37:38 PM
The end of year 5 sucked. No doubt. But it was still our best year under Wojo. That's the trajectory.

Year 2 was better than year 1. Year 3 was better than Year 2. Year 4 was a slight step back from Year 3. But year 5 was better than year 3 and 4.

The trajectory is up. We have 5 data points. The arrow is pointing up. Let's see where we are at the end of this year. I just don't understand the point of debating this now. If we miss the tournament this year, even after losing 2 starters, I think most of us would say it's time for a change. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand debating on a game-to-game basis.

Year 4 was a “slight” step back?  We missed the freaking Tournament with three of the best three point shooters in the country on our team.  The Tournament is the standard at Marquette.  In Wojo’s first year with all his own players, we missed the Tournament.  Year 4 was a failure, not a slight step back.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 04, 2019, 05:41:55 PM
There was plenty enough talent as Mr Elonsmusk has pointed out. The problem is our coach had no experience as a college head coach and didn’t know how to properly put together a cohesive strategy for winning in his first year.

Deonte is in the NBA now and was Coming off a freshman season where he made The All Big East freshman team. Wojo was inexperienced and ran him off , contrary to the PR around this case.

Duane played an important role on our team beating Villanova and making the NCAA tournament. He was the starting point guard for Texas A and M when they  made it into the top ten prior to his injury there.

Luke was also a key factor in our NCAA team and had a solid career and is now doing very well in the highest Euro League

JJJ had a solid career and was a key factor in our NCAA run

Juan Anderson was recently invited to the Warriors training camp and his been on their G league team the last two years

Sandy Cohen playing in the top European League

John Dawson has made the Charlotte Hornets G League team 3 years in a row

ST jr playing in Europe doing well this season

Even Derrick has played in Europe 4 years in a row

Todd Mayo made G league before he imploded for good

Matt Carlino who was Mayos replacement made All Big East and was in G League and played in Europe

How many times will you lie about Deonte being run off?  Just because you tell a lie enough, it doesn’t make it true despite what George Costanza says.  You can’t offer proof, just like being on Quentin Grimes official visit.  It’s an insult to the program and Deonte
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 04, 2019, 06:01:56 PM
The end of year 5 sucked. No doubt. But it was still our best year under Wojo. That's the trajectory.

Year 2 was better than year 1. Year 3 was better than Year 2. Year 4 was a slight step back from Year 3. But year 5 was better than year 3 and 4.

The trajectory is up. We have 5 data points. The arrow is pointing up. Let's see where we are at the end of this year. I just don't understand the point of debating this now. If we miss the tournament this year, even after losing 2 starters, I think most of us would say it's time for a change. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand debating on a game-to-game basis.

If missing the tournament would lead to most of the the fanbase saying it's time for a change, then that doesn't say much for the job he's done so far.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Eldon on December 04, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
The end of year 5 sucked. No doubt. But it was still our best year under Wojo. That's the trajectory.

Year 2 was better than year 1. Year 3 was better than Year 2. Year 4 was a slight step back from Year 3. But year 5 was better than year 3 and 4.

The trajectory is up. We have 5 data points. The arrow is pointing up. Let's see where we are at the end of this year. I just don't understand the point of debating this now. If we miss the tournament this year, even after losing 2 starters, I think most of us would say it's time for a change. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand debating on a game-to-game basis.

Youre dead wrong. Tribalism is part of the human condition.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: jesmu84 on December 04, 2019, 10:06:29 PM
I'm glad these players were good enough to go where teams would have them 5 years after they graduated college.  Good for them.

That doesn't change the fact that there was a total of one high major quality contributor.  And that one did so in his fifth season, which he wouldn't have gotten had he not transferred away following the death of his mother.  I'll even be generous and give you JaJuan, who again was just a guy.

If people want to whine and cry about Wojo have at it.  But at least do so for legitimate reasons.  Not being able to roll through the Big East with Derrick Wilson, Duane Wilson, Juan Anderson, JaJuan Johnson, Sandy Cohen, Luke Fischer, Steve Taylor, and Deonte Burton isn't really one of them.  Nor is not receiving votes on December 4, or being behind Butler and Xavier in KenPom on December 4.

I notice they all forgot to mention buzz didn't succeed with roughly the same roster...
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 10:42:24 PM
I notice they all forgot to mention buzz didn't succeed with roughly the same roster...

Yeah and when that gets pointed out it’s because Buzz quit on the team to stick it to the administration.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Eldon on December 04, 2019, 11:08:18 PM
Yeah and when that gets pointed out it’s because Buzz quit on the team to stick it to the administration.

So Buzz fans have excuses. Projos have excuses. Whaddayaknow
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BM1090 on December 04, 2019, 11:10:07 PM
If missing the tournament would lead to most of the the fanbase saying it's time for a change, then that doesn't say much for the job he's done so far.

Mostly agree.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BM1090 on December 04, 2019, 11:12:37 PM
Year 4 was a “slight” step back?  We missed the freaking Tournament with three of the best three point shooters in the country on our team.  The Tournament is the standard at Marquette.  In Wojo’s first year with all his own players, we missed the Tournament.  Year 4 was a failure, not a slight step back.

Slight step back in results. 53 in Kenpom compared to 32 in Year 3. It can be both a failure due to your expectations and also only a slight step back. It was disappointing to miss the tournament.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: WarriorDad on December 04, 2019, 11:23:45 PM
Come on now, Buzz quit in the last year because he was fed up with Marquette (not condoning this). 

However, that incredible coach actually DID win with us - big time.  We were a lot more relevant then than we are now - especially on the NCAA stage which is objectively the most important part of any college basketball season.

Why support a quitter?
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TAMU Eagle on December 04, 2019, 11:45:18 PM
So Buzz fans have excuses conspiracy theories.

FIFY

Where do I fit in this? I am both a fan of Buzz and support the current coach. I'm thinking of calling myself a Marquette fan.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on December 04, 2019, 11:47:41 PM
So Buzz fans have excuses. Projos have excuses. Whaddayaknow
Buzz's teams have accolades (S16, E8, Big East), Wojo's teams do not.  Whaddayaknow.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 05, 2019, 08:57:00 AM
The end of year 5 sucked. No doubt. But it was still our best year under Wojo. That's the trajectory.

Year 2 was better than year 1. Year 3 was better than Year 2. Year 4 was a slight step back from Year 3. But year 5 was better than year 3 and 4.

The trajectory is up. We have 5 data points. The arrow is pointing up. Let's see where we are at the end of this year. I just don't understand the point of debating this now. If we miss the tournament this year, even after losing 2 starters, I think most of us would say it's time for a change. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand debating on a game-to-game basis.

Frustrated incels have to do something to feel better about themselves
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 05, 2019, 09:01:40 AM
Where do I fit in this? I am both a fan of Buzz and support the current coach. I'm thinking of calling myself a Marquette fan.

No! You must state your allegiance only to one coach (other than Al, of course; we all bend the knee to him) or revoke your Scoop membership! And no refunds, pal!!!

Marquette fan? Marquette fan? How dopey.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: GB Warrior on December 05, 2019, 09:06:40 AM
No! You must state your allegiance only to one coach (other than Al, of course; we all bend the knee to him) or revoke your Scoop membership! And no refunds, pal!!!

Marquette fan? Marquette fan? How dopey.

I get how it's hard for some people to like Wojo. They only have room for one king (baron?) figure in their lives.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 09:56:45 AM
FIFY

Where do I fit in this? I am both a fan of Buzz and support the current coach. I'm thinking of calling myself a Marquette fan.

Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 05, 2019, 09:59:34 AM
FIFY

Where do I fit in this? I am both a fan of Buzz and support the current coach. I'm thinking of calling myself a Marquette fan.

Wuzzy
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 05, 2019, 10:02:18 AM
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.

Theres all sorts of wrong in here.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 05, 2019, 10:14:44 AM
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.




None of these are conspiracy theories. They are reasons. Some may be valid. Others may not be. None of them involve a conspiracy.

Buzz’s last year is very explainable when you look at the talent that left and his poor recruiting populating the junior and sophomore classes. You have to develop conspiracies to believe it had something to do other than the lack of talent.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 05, 2019, 10:17:27 AM
Furthermore why are you so insistent in continuously debating what happened five plus years ago?  It’s over. Buzz is gone. He’s even gone from the job he left us for. It’s time for you to move on.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 10:22:48 AM

None of these are conspiracy theories. They are reasons. Some may be valid. Others may not be. None of them involve a conspiracy.

Buzz’s last year is very explainable when you look at the talent that left and his poor recruiting populating the junior and sophomore classes. You have to develop conspiracies to believe it had something to do other than the lack of talent.

Gotcha.  You call them reasons, I call them excuses.

As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

As for the post I made, it is debating what has happened over the course of each of the last five years, not five years ago.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 05, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
Gotcha.  You call them reasons, I call them excuses.

As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

As for the post I made, it is debating what has happened over the course of each of the last five years, not five years ago.

Buzz knew he was in for another underpefroming year the following year with the roster he had and jumped for the first big football school that had all upside & no downside to hang out for a few years before he got back to Texas. I loved his teams but it's pretty clear in retrospect. Once things got a little bit tough he jumped ship.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 05, 2019, 11:30:40 AM
Gotcha.  You call them reasons, I call them excuses.

As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

As for the post I made, it is debating what has happened over the course of each of the last five years, not five years ago.

Bringing up your tin foil hat theories about Buzz back in 2013-14 is indeed debating things that happened five plus years ago.

Scoop doesn’t need its version of Alex Jones. Grow up. Move on. Get with the times.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 05, 2019, 11:39:48 AM
As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

Your theory reflects worse on Buzz, you know?
It's one thing to do your best and come up short. It happens.
Tanking because your feels got hurt just makes you an a-hole.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 12:33:38 PM
Bringing up your tin foil hat theories about Buzz back in 2013-14 is indeed debating things that happened five plus years ago.

Scoop doesn’t need its version of Alex Jones. Grow up. Move on. Get with the times.

Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Your theory reflects worse on Buzz, you know?
It's one thing to do your best and come up short. It happens.
Tanking because your feels got hurt just makes you an a-hole.

Sure.  I agree.  Was pretty bummed with how it all went down with Buzz - mostly the way admin changed the rules of the game.  Every action, there is a reaction - Buzz didn't handle it well, yet he also had his reasons. 

Not many coaches would stay at a school that boosts eligibility requirements above the NCAA minimums, takes away the ability to recruit players who have been great ambassadors for the university (Jae and Jimmy) solely because they couldn't meet graduation requirements based on incoming/transferable credits from JUCOs.  Yet we sure do like plastering their image and association with MU all over our program, the AL, locker room etc.

Pilarz and Williams were a disaster.  Think that is one thing all (except Chicos) can agree on.


Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: #UnleashDiener on December 05, 2019, 12:41:22 PM
Yeah and when that gets pointed out it’s because Buzz quit on the team to stick it to the administration.

Wait... Isn't that your argument anytime someone brings up buzz
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 05, 2019, 12:54:53 PM


Buzz’s last year is very explainable when you look at the talent that left and his poor recruiting populating the junior and sophomore classes. You have to develop conspiracies to believe it had something to do other than the lack of talent.

I agree that the tanking idea is ridiculous. And I agree with your short on talent take. But I do think that an unhappy employee with one foot out the door (probably  unconsciously) gives less than his best effort.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 05, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
I agree that the tanking idea is ridiculous. And I agree with your short on talent take. But I do think that an unhappy employee with one foot out the door (probably  unconsciously) gives less than his best effort.

I think highly of Buzz and don’t believe it would impact his on court performance that much.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 05, 2019, 01:05:56 PM
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

Belaboring a long dead point.

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

Belaboring a long dead point.

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

Belaboring a long dead point.

You wonder why people get upset at you, this is why. Everyone has moved on, yet you get banned over the same crap time and time again, and when you decide "oh, my being banned doesn't count any more, I'll create a new account" you come back and immediately are beating the same dead horses you've been whipping for literally 5+ years.

Then you get upset and argue about these same things, blaming others for not accepting your viewpoint. We're all done with these topics. They aren't relevant. Move on and maybe we can all get along. Or keep posting the same stuff you were previously banned for and see how that works out. But spoiler alert, we all know how that works out.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 05, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
I think highly of Buzz and don’t believe it would impact his on court performance that much.

Same.
Buzz didn't recruit like he had a foot out the door or was disgruntled.
He just put together a roster that didn't work very well and - for all the praise the Nojos give it  - didn't figure out a way to get a strong freshman class involved.
For all the "Wojo glued Deonte to the bench" nonsense from one particular Scooper, Buzz played him even less.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TSmith34 on December 05, 2019, 01:11:14 PM
You wonder why people get upset at you, this is why. Everyone has moved on, yet you get banned over the same crap time and time again, and when you decide "oh, my being banned doesn't count any more, I'll create a new account" you come back and immediately are beating the same dead horses you've been whipping for literally 5+ years.
The Ners v13 experiment is working out exactly as everyone could have predicted then.  Much like Chicos v9.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BLM on December 05, 2019, 01:22:32 PM
The Ners v13 experiment is working out exactly as everyone could have predicted then.  Much like Chicos v9.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TAMU Eagle on December 05, 2019, 01:57:24 PM
Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Actually I didn't, was responding to another post. Buzz tried to squeeze every bit of talent he could out of that last roster but even his coaching genius couldn't do it.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BallBoy on December 05, 2019, 02:21:31 PM
Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Not many coaches would stay at a school that boosts eligibility requirements above the NCAA minimums, takes away the ability to recruit players who have been great ambassadors for the university (Jae and Jimmy) solely because they couldn't meet graduation requirements based on incoming/transferable credits from JUCOs.  Yet we sure do like plastering their image and association with MU all over our program, the AL, locker room etc.


Buzz didn't leave because of who he could recruit.  He left because he was scared.  He looked at the numbers, said the Big East doesn't have football, non-football schools don't win, schools without ESPN don't win, and MU fans would turn on him when he put out a losing product.  At which point, he would likely not get a better job so he left for a no pressure, upside only opportunity in a power conference and made the most of it.  He then immediately jumped ship.

He didn't give up the last season, he just had a bad team.  You never seem to talk about how the team may have given up on him, or the bad chemistry he helped cultivate or how Todd Mayo was a cancer but anything Wojo touches has to be seen as negative.

Here is the story from Buzz and Chew from 2013. 

"https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/new-faces-new-places-why-did-buzz-williams-leave-marquette-for-vt/

The important stuff but I highlighted that Buzz most likely saw the next 6 years or the Wojo years as bad years for himself. 

Simply put, once Williams decided to go into what he called an "information-gathering mode," his mind wouldn't rest until he had more data than you can imagine. He projected the likelihood of basketball programs not connected to football programs flourishing over the next 10 years in this ever-changing climate of college athletics. He studied how many programs succeed at a high level without some sort of ESPN contract. He estimated whether it was reasonable to expect the next six years at Marquette would duplicate or exceed the previous six. He researched every coach who has been at a high-major program for at least eight seasons to the point where he learned that staying in the same place too long in this era -- especially when you'll be inheriting a new athletic director soon, like he would've been at Marquette -- proves to be a mistake more often than not.

The second interesting thing was how often Williams began a sentence in that meeting with the words "when they fire me" because I've never heard a coach, particularly a successful one who has never been on the so-called hot seat, speak that way, especially not a coach with a fresh contract. And yet he said it over and over again.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 02:35:03 PM
Actually I didn't, was responding to another post. Buzz tried to squeeze every bit of talent he could out of that last roster but even his coaching genius couldn't do it.

Buzz apparently had a major brain fart then in the Big East tournament when Deonte was tearing Xavier apart, and he put him on the bench with ~8 minutes left in the 2nd half, only to bring him back for the last 30 seconds.  4 days later his contract was inked with VaTech.  You know..the guy who doesn't even have an agent, and negotiates his own contracts.  I'm sure the first conversations with VATech took place the day after we lost. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TAMU Eagle on December 05, 2019, 02:44:54 PM
Buzz apparently had a major brain fart then in the Big East tournament when Deonte was tearing Xavier apart, and he put him on the bench with ~8 minutes left in the 2nd half, only to bring him back for the last 30 seconds.  4 days later his contract was inked with VaTech.  You know..the guy who doesn't even have an agent, and negotiates his own contracts.  I'm sure the first conversations with VATech took place the day after we lost.

So your proof is that Buzz didn't ride the 4th guy off the bench in crunch time of a must win game? Riding the hot hand is one strategy, trusting your players who have been the best all season is another. From what I remember of Buzz, he usually was more of the latter than the former.

It's only a brain fart if you lose. If you win, you get praised for anticipating what others didn't.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 02:46:02 PM
Buzz didn't leave because of who he could recruit.  He left because he was scared.  He looked at the numbers, said the Big East doesn't have football, non-football schools don't win, schools without ESPN don't win, and MU fans would turn on him when he put out a losing product.  At which point, he would likely not get a better job so he left for a no pressure, upside only opportunity in a power conference and made the most of it.  He then immediately jumped ship.

He didn't give up the last season, he just had a bad team.  You never seem to talk about how the team may have given up on him, or the bad chemistry he helped cultivate or how Todd Mayo was a cancer but anything Wojo touches has to be seen as negative.

Here is the story from Buzz and Chew from 2013. 

"https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/new-faces-new-places-why-did-buzz-williams-leave-marquette-for-vt/

The important stuff but I highlighted that Buzz most likely saw the next 6 years or the Wojo years as bad years for himself. 

Simply put, once Williams decided to go into what he called an "information-gathering mode," his mind wouldn't rest until he had more data than you can imagine. He projected the likelihood of basketball programs not connected to football programs flourishing over the next 10 years in this ever-changing climate of college athletics. He studied how many programs succeed at a high level without some sort of ESPN contract. He estimated whether it was reasonable to expect the next six years at Marquette would duplicate or exceed the previous six. He researched every coach who has been at a high-major program for at least eight seasons to the point where he learned that staying in the same place too long in this era -- especially when you'll be inheriting a new athletic director soon, like he would've been at Marquette -- proves to be a mistake more often than not.

The second interesting thing was how often Williams began a sentence in that meeting with the words "when they fire me" because I've never heard a coach, particularly a successful one who has never been on the so-called hot seat, speak that way, especially not a coach with a fresh contract. And yet he said it over and over again.

Nice find.  Certainly probably a degree of truth here, yet he had to spin leaving a program like Marquette for a bottom dweller like VaTech.  It was pretty common knowledge that the relationship between Buzz and admin has soured dramatically over the course of his last 12 months at MU.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 02:48:58 PM
So your proof is that Buzz didn't ride the 4th guy off the bench in crunch time of a must win game? Riding the hot hand is one strategy, trusting your players who have been the best all season is another. From what I remember of Buzz, he usually was more of the latter than the former.

Well, as you know, I was a massive Deonte fan, and never felt he should have been 4th off the bench, or wasn't one of the best players on that team.  At the time, it sure didn't make sense to me to bench the guy who was far and away your best player in the game during the cruical closing 8 minutes of that game.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 02:49:49 PM
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.

It was so widely known how at odds he was with that fans, his media cronies, etc were all stunned when he left....widely known.   Sure, he had plenty of disagreements, he was punished (as he should have been), but let’s not pretend it people knew he was leaving.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 05, 2019, 02:52:31 PM
I think highly of Buzz and don’t believe it would impact his on court performance that much.

Not "that much", I agree. But unconsciously, probably (IMO) a little.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: dgies9156 on December 05, 2019, 02:55:11 PM
Sorry guys, I'm just tired of arguing about the Cowboy. He aint coming back. We probably could not have kept him no matter how hard we tried and if he was paranoid, so what. Quit debating the Cowboy. Hope he loses every game in Texas and sells burgers at McDonalds for all the nastys he said about us. As Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank says, "He's dead to me."

As to Wojo, I am not entirely happy either but I'm in his corner as long as he is our's. His history is checkered and I'm hopeful we can again be a feared blue blood!

Objectively, looking at Wojo, we've had a ride. The Ellenson team was built for a two year run. Had Henry stayed a second year, I'm pretty confident we would have had a deep run in the tournament. However, my broader concern was that while Henry was here, Wojo could not manage him. There was too much hero ball. The guy apparently didn't realize he wasn't at Rice Lake High and that our team was not "Henry and the Eagles."

Haanif's inability to put four years in here was disappointing. The Hausers were a total and complete operational breakdown. That's on Management. Period.

The inability to consistently be in the NCAA tournament is a problem and needs to be fixed post haste if Wojo expects a long-term run at MU. The debacle against Murray State was embarrassing and went against everything MU stands for in basketball. It's one thing for that to happen in a Final Four. It's another thing to have it happen against a backwater program with one star that's stretched to be called a mid-major.

The win against Villanova a few years ago and the run we had from December through early February is indicative of what could be. South Carolina and Murray State have been indicative of what "is" way too much.

I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Look, no more rebuilds. I want Wojo to succeed and I truly hope he does. We know we have something special and I hope sincerely, he's the guy. I'm just not sold yet.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
Buzz's teams have accolades (S16, E8, Big East), Wojo's teams do not.  Whaddayaknow.

More than just accolades...
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 05, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
Sorry guys, I'm just tired of arguing about the Cowboy. He aint coming back. We probably could not have kept him no matter how hard we tried and if he was paranoid, so what. Quit debating the Cowboy. Hope he loses every game in Texas and sells burgers at McDonalds for all the nastys he said about us. As Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank says, "He's dead to me."

As to Wojo, I am not entirely happy either but I'm in his corner as long as he is our's. His history is checkered and I'm hopeful we can again be a feared blue blood!

Objectively, looking at Wojo, we've had a ride. The Ellenson team was built for a two year run. Had Henry stayed a second year, I'm pretty confident we would have had a deep run in the tournament. However, my broader concern was that while Henry was here, Wojo could not manage him. There was too much hero ball. The guy apparently didn't realize he wasn't at Rice Lake High and that our team was not "Henry and the Eagles."

Haanif's inability to put four years in here was disappointing. The Hausers were a total and complete operational breakdown. That's on Management. Period.

The inability to consistently be in the NCAA tournament is a problem and needs to be fixed post haste if Wojo expects a long-term run at MU. The debacle against Murray State was embarrassing and went against everything MU stands for in basketball. It's one thing for that to happen in a Final Four. It's another thing to have it happen against a backwater program with one star that's stretched to be called a mid-major.

The win against Villanova a few years ago and the run we had from December through early February is indicative of what could be. South Carolina and Murray State have been indicative of what "is" way too much.

I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Look, no more rebuilds. I want Wojo to succeed and I truly hope he does. We know we have something special and I hope sincerely, he's the guy. I'm just not sold yet.

Well said.  Great post.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 03:04:06 PM
Buzz's teams have accolades (S16, E8, Big East), Wojo's teams do not.  Whaddayaknow.

More than just accolades...a declining APR, all kinds of fun extra curricular media coverage for all kinds of behavior...Whaddayaknow.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 03:05:03 PM
I get how it's hard for some people to like Wojo. They only have room for one king (baron?) figure in their lives.

Ahh, politics....were you sorry, too, but the big bad bully needs to be more sorry type of sorry apology....”I’m sorry, but Billy did it first”


LOL
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Benny B on December 05, 2019, 03:09:20 PM
Having had more than five years to judge, I now feel comfortable saying

I WAS RIGHT

(Can't believe this didn't go very far in the meme tourney.)

(http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42991.0;attach=4740;image)
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 03:13:41 PM
Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Sure.  I agree.  Was pretty bummed with how it all went down with Buzz - mostly the way admin changed the rules of the game.  Every action, there is a reaction - Buzz didn't handle it well, yet he also had his reasons. 

Not many coaches would stay at a school that boosts eligibility requirements above the NCAA minimums, takes away the ability to recruit players who have been great ambassadors for the university (Jae and Jimmy) solely because they couldn't meet graduation requirements based on incoming/transferable credits from JUCOs.  Yet we sure do like plastering their image and association with MU all over our program, the AL, locker room etc.

Pilarz and Williams were a disaster.  Think that is one thing all (except Chicos) can agree on.

D

I don’t know about Pilarz, Williams was doing his job.  Buzz didn’t follow the rules established by his employer and was reprimanded as a result.

Were they 8 foot rims you dunked on?
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 05, 2019, 03:19:06 PM
I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

In all fairness, though, Marquette has never had top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year under any coach, except maybe Al, but nobody tracked it back then.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 03:28:00 PM
Sorry guys, I'm just tired of arguing about the Cowboy. He aint coming back. We probably could not have kept him no matter how hard we tried and if he was paranoid, so what. Quit debating the Cowboy. Hope he loses every game in Texas and sells burgers at McDonalds for all the nastys he said about us. As Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank says, "He's dead to me."

As to Wojo, I am not entirely happy either but I'm in his corner as long as he is our's. His history is checkered and I'm hopeful we can again be a feared blue blood!

Objectively, looking at Wojo, we've had a ride. The Ellenson team was built for a two year run. Had Henry stayed a second year, I'm pretty confident we would have had a deep run in the tournament. However, my broader concern was that while Henry was here, Wojo could not manage him. There was too much hero ball. The guy apparently didn't realize he wasn't at Rice Lake High and that our team was not "Henry and the Eagles."

Haanif's inability to put four years in here was disappointing. The Hausers were a total and complete operational breakdown. That's on Management. Period.

The inability to consistently be in the NCAA tournament is a problem and needs to be fixed post haste if Wojo expects a long-term run at MU. The debacle against Murray State was embarrassing and went against everything MU stands for in basketball. It's one thing for that to happen in a Final Four. It's another thing to have it happen against a backwater program with one star that's stretched to be called a mid-major.

The win against Villanova a few years ago and the run we had from December through early February is indicative of what could be. South Carolina and Murray State have been indicative of what "is" way too much.

I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Look, no more rebuilds. I want Wojo to succeed and I truly hope he does. We know we have something special and I hope sincerely, he's the guy. I'm just not sold yet.

Top 15 recruiting classes every year?  This is your expectation in 2019?  When was the last time we had 2 straight top 15 classes?  That’s far short of every year so it feels a fair ask in my opinion.

I went back to 1999 recruiting class rankings and only 3 times in that period did we make the top 15.  That was under Deane, Crean, Buzz and Wojo regimes...but only 3 times pulled off by four coaches.

Once every five years.  I love you man, but it ain’t happening every year.  I would be ecstatic to get back to back, or even 2 out of 3...neither of which has happened in the last 20+ years.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 05, 2019, 03:28:03 PM
I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Okay...this one is kind of funny. Obviously there are 15 schools with a one-year streak, the top 15 from 2019. As far as "every" year, there are only two schools that do that. Kentucky and Duke. Don't believe me? Here are the longest top-15 streaks per 247 Sports:

2 years: Kentucky, Duke, Oregon, Villanova, North Carolina, Kansas
3 years: Kentucky, Duke, Oregon, Kansas
4 years: Kentucky, Duke

So unless you are K or Cal, no one meets that expectation.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 05, 2019, 03:31:13 PM
Buzz apparently had a major brain fart then in the Big East tournament when Deonte was tearing Xavier apart, and he put him on the bench with ~8 minutes left in the 2nd half, only to bring him back for the last 30 seconds.  4 days later his contract was inked with VaTech.  You know..the guy who doesn't even have an agent, and negotiates his own contracts.  I'm sure the first conversations with VATech took place the day after we lost. 

No, you're not continuing to regurgitate something that occurred five and a half years ago.

Nice find.  Certainly probably a degree of truth here, yet he had to spin leaving a program like Marquette for a bottom dweller like VaTech.  It was pretty common knowledge that the relationship between Buzz and admin has soured dramatically over the course of his last 12 months at MU.

I mean, why would anyone think that?

Well, as you know, I was a massive Deonte fan, and never felt he should have been 4th off the bench, or wasn't one of the best players on that team.  At the time, it sure didn't make sense to me to bench the guy who was far and away your best player in the game during the cruical closing 8 minutes of that game.

It's a mystery.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 05, 2019, 03:41:49 PM
Well, as you know, I was a massive Deonte fan, and never felt he should have been 4th off the bench, or wasn't one of the best players on that team.  At the time, it sure didn't make sense to me to bench the guy who was far and away your best player in the game during the cruical closing 8 minutes of that game.

YOU'RE TRYING TO RELITIGATE THE MINUTE DISTRIBUTION FROM A GAME 4 YEARS AGO!!! WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?

(https://i.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.webp)
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 05, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
YOU'RE TRYING TO RELITIGATE THE MINUTE DISTRIBUTION FROM A GAME 4 YEARS AGO!!! WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?

(https://i.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.webp)

Pretty sure it was over 4 years ago
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: brewcity77 on December 05, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
Pretty sure it was over 4 years ago

You're right, it was almost exactly 5.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: dgies9156 on December 05, 2019, 06:26:41 PM
Top 15 recruiting classes every year?  This is your expectation in 2019?  When was the last time we had 2 straight top 15 classes?  That’s far short of every year so it feels a fair ask in my opinion.

I went back to 1999 recruiting class rankings and only 3 times in that period did we make the top 15.  That was under Deane, Crean, Buzz and Wojo regimes...but only 3 times pulled off by four coaches.

Once every five years.  I love you man, but it ain’t happening every year.  I would be ecstatic to get back to back, or even 2 out of 3...neither of which has happened in the last 20+ years.

Brother Cheeks:

Yeah, I rather do expect that. We may fall short, but if we're not consistently pulling in the best or near-best, we aren't competing for a Natty.

Period.

I don't care what our recent past has been. If our expectation is for Wojo to deliver a Natty someday, then hell ya, we better be a consistent Top 15 recruiting class. I can see where once in awhile we might fall short but geez, what's the goal here.

Maybe you young whippersnappers (Get off my damn lawn, will ya) think that getting to the tournament is a big deal. Or that a Sweet 16 is the apogee for the program. To that I say, "bullcrap." We are Marquette, forgodssake! We should demand better.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 05, 2019, 06:47:44 PM
Brother Cheeks:

Yeah, I rather do expect that. We may fall short, but if we're not consistently pulling in the best or near-best, we aren't competing for a Natty.

Period.

I don't care what our recent past has been. If our expectation is for Wojo to deliver a Natty someday, then hell ya, we better be a consistent Top 15 recruiting class. I can see where once in awhile we might fall short but geez, what's the goal here.

Maybe you young whippersnappers (Get off my damn lawn, will ya) think that getting to the tournament is a big deal. Or that a Sweet 16 is the apogee for the program. To that I say, "bullcrap." We are Marquette, forgodssake! We should demand better.

Can someone look into the recruits of the past few years finals participants? I guarantee they didn't have top 15 classes every year. In fact I'd wager they just had low transfer rates
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 05, 2019, 06:48:19 PM
Top 15 classes every year isn't realistic, but there's a definite need for an upgrade in talent, and more than one class's worth.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 05, 2019, 07:15:57 PM
Top 15 classes every year isn't realistic, but there's a definite need for an upgrade in talent, and more than one class's worth.

What were your thoughts on sam Markus and bailey's class?

Joey?
Symir?

We won't always have scholarships for a top 15 class. transfers and other weird stuff (morman missions) happen.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BallBoy on December 05, 2019, 07:52:59 PM
I went back to 1999 recruiting class rankings and only 3 times in that period did we make the top 15.  That was under Deane, Crean, Buzz and Wojo regimes...but only 3 times pulled off by four coaches.

According to 247 it happened 4 times in the last 20 years which were 2005, 2009, 2013 and 2015. If the 2020 class stays in the current spot they will also be top 15 which would make 5. Of the classes 2005 had the fewest transfers at MU. 2013 would be the worse as only 1 stayed. 2015 had a one and done, two transfers and two four year players. 2009 was a big class but the 4 stars were busts but had two 3star juco studs.

In other words our top 15 classes haven’t been our most successful. Wojo should have 2 top 15 classes.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 05, 2019, 08:16:55 PM
According to 247 it happened 4 times in the last 20 years which were 2005, 2009, 2013 and 2015. If the 2020 class stays in the current spot they will also be top 15 which would make 5. Of the classes 2005 had the fewest transfers at MU. 2013 would be the worse as only 1 stayed. 2015 had a one and done, two transfers and two four year players. 2009 was a big class but the 4 stars were busts but had two 3star juco studs.

In other words our top 15 classes haven’t been our most successful. Wojo should have 2 top 15 classes.

Suprised Markus Sam and Bailey weren't
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 08:20:30 PM
Top 15 classes every year isn't realistic, but there's a definite need for an upgrade in talent, and more than one class's worth.

Well, we have one to build off.  Again, only 3 times in 20 years have we had such a class, 4th one coming next year. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BallBoy on December 05, 2019, 08:52:14 PM
Suprised Markus Sam and Bailey weren't

They were 22 according to 247. A top 15 class is fun but quantity of players also impacts the ratings. In that class MU only had three players. All of which were top 100 but 60-100 range. Other schools with more recruits will jump if the quality numbers are close.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 09:00:56 PM
Brother Cheeks:

Yeah, I rather do expect that. We may fall short, but if we're not consistently pulling in the best or near-best, we aren't competing for a Natty.

Period.

I don't care what our recent past has been. If our expectation is for Wojo to deliver a Natty someday, then hell ya, we better be a consistent Top 15 recruiting class. I can see where once in awhile we might fall short but geez, what's the goal here.

Maybe you young whippersnappers (Get off my damn lawn, will ya) think that getting to the tournament is a big deal. Or that a Sweet 16 is the apogee for the program. To that I say, "bullcrap." We are Marquette, forgodssake! We should demand better.

With all due respect, this is why I think we have a fan base detached from reality.  We won a natty because of a once in a lifetime coach in Al McGuire.  Doesn't mean we cannot be a very good program, and maybe sneak into a Final Four and get one, but what you are talking about I don't see possible.  It's been 40 years for a reason.  Look at the schools that are doing what you call for, they almost all have football, warm weather, major $$$ from conference TV money, etc.

It's not a matter of thinking it's a big deal, I think some of you more seasoned folks are stuck in a time warp that isn't coming back.  Al isn't walking through that door, but doesn't mean we cannot be a damn good program considering the investment.  Don't forget when Al was doing great, the Big East didn't exist, Wisconsin was a complete joke and scholarship limits were higher.  Things have changed drastically since those days, including the dispersion of talent, money to big conferences, and Wisconsin has become a player in our own backyard.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 05, 2019, 09:03:02 PM
According to 247 it happened 4 times in the last 20 years which were 2005, 2009, 2013 and 2015. If the 2020 class stays in the current spot they will also be top 15 which would make 5. Of the classes 2005 had the fewest transfers at MU. 2013 would be the worse as only 1 stayed. 2015 had a one and done, two transfers and two four year players. 2009 was a big class but the 4 stars were busts but had two 3star juco studs.

In other words our top 15 classes haven’t been our most successful. Wojo should have 2 top 15 classes.

My apologies, thought it was 3...I'll go with your 4.  I think the point still stands, it almost never happens at MU and quite frankly doesn't happen at most schools.  The schools where it does happen, look and act very little like MU. 

I get the desire to demand to be the best, but at some point some realism or magic needs to be acquired. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 05, 2019, 09:26:19 PM
I get the desire to demand to be the best, but at some point some realism or magic needs to be acquired.

Hate to agree with this guy but this is the big reason for most arguments on here
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: dgies9156 on December 06, 2019, 07:00:48 AM
With all due respect, this is why I think we have a fan base detached from reality.  We won a natty because of a once in a lifetime coach in Al McGuire.  Doesn't mean we cannot be a very good program, and maybe sneak into a Final Four and get one, but what you are talking about I don't see possible.  It's been 40 years for a reason.  Look at the schools that are doing what you call for, they almost all have football, warm weather, major $$$ from conference TV money, etc.

It's not a matter of thinking it's a big deal, I think some of you more seasoned folks are stuck in a time warp that isn't coming back.  Al isn't walking through that door, but doesn't mean we cannot be a damn good program considering the investment.

Brother Cheeks:

As a "more seasoned" Warrior fan, I could not disagree with you more. I'll concede that it is time to move away from Al (and stoutly agree with Brother Goose on this matter) but to suggest that we cannot be a blue blood again is absurd on its face.

Your comment is akin to looking to the New York Yankees and saying an aspiration goal of having a team like they did in the 1950s is absurd. The notion that the New York Yankees will be World Champions every year but three probably is absurd but the notion that they commit to the best farm system, best training and development, best coaches and best Big League players is not. That, my brother, is the goal I would hope Marquette would aim for in college basketball.

Second, for you young whippersnappers, it was not all seashells and balloons during the McGuire era either. We did not annually win an NCAA title. There was a team called U-C-L-A that did. Fate, bad luck and guys now known as Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton were a major catalyst in UCLA's success. But we never stopped trying and we finally climbed the mountain in 1977.

Third, I am so tired of this crap that Marquette can't compete because of the cold weather, the Power 5 or the emergence of other nearby basketball powers that I could scream. If you believe this nonsense, I suggest you turn in your sweater vest, move to College Station and support the idiot who first openly promulgated that theory. What has football got to do with Duke's, North Carolina's or Maryland's success? Not a damn thing!

I recall another time when it was said the Green Bay Packers were irrelevant, that certain star players did not want to play in Green Bay and that the franchise's aspirational goal of being what they were in the 1960s was absurd. Something about who would want to play in Green Bay in December? Yeah, there were not massive amounts of new Lombardis in the trophy case in Green Bay, but the team is aspiring to get back to what it once was.

Finally, we went 40 years without a return to excellence because of a confluence of factors that had nothing to do with macro factors in basketball. We made a bad decision on hiring Al's replacement. We then hired a string of coaches who were not ready for prime time (yet, in one case) or coaches we did not keep. We tended to shoot ourselves in the foot until someone woke up and realized how important basketball was to university development.

Maybe we do not get a Top 15 every year, but we need consistency and we need to strive to get there. To Wojo's credit, that's what he's working toward and I hope he gets there.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 08:06:33 AM
Well, we have one to build off.  Again, only 3 times in 20 years have we had such a class, 4th one coming next year.

Agreed, Wojo's class is a good start.  We're losing arguably the greatest scorer in MU history though, as well as Sacar, so that will need to be offset.  Hopefully another high quality class will follow soon after, but getting Karim Mane in next year's class would be a massive boon.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 08:12:55 AM
Brother Cheeks:

As a "more seasoned" Warrior fan, I could not disagree with you more. I'll concede that it is time to move away from Al (and stoutly agree with Brother Goose on this matter) but to suggest that we cannot be a blue blood again is absurd on its face.

Your comment is akin to looking to the New York Yankees and saying an aspiration goal of having a team like they did in the 1950s is absurd. The notion that the New York Yankees will be World Champions every year but three probably is absurd but the notion that they commit to the best farm system, best training and development, best coaches and best Big League players is not. That, my brother, is the goal I would hope Marquette would aim for in college basketball.

Second, for you young whippersnappers, it was not all seashells and balloons during the McGuire era either. We did not annually win an NCAA title. There was a team called U-C-L-A that did. Fate, bad luck and guys now known as Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton were a major catalyst in UCLA's success. But we never stopped trying and we finally climbed the mountain in 1977.

Third, I am so tired of this crap that Marquette can't compete because of the cold weather, the Power 5 or the emergence of other nearby basketball powers that I could scream. If you believe this nonsense, I suggest you turn in your sweater vest, move to College Station and support the idiot who first openly promulgated that theory. What has football got to do with Duke's, North Carolina's or Maryland's success? Not a damn thing!

I recall another time when it was said the Green Bay Packers were irrelevant, that certain star players did not want to play in Green Bay and that the franchise's aspirational goal of being what they were in the 1960s was absurd. Something about who would want to play in Green Bay in December? Yeah, there were not massive amounts of new Lombardis in the trophy case in Green Bay, but the team is aspiring to get back to what it once was.

Finally, we went 40 years without a return to excellence because of a confluence of factors that had nothing to do with macro factors in basketball. We made a bad decision on hiring Al's replacement. We then hired a string of coaches who were not ready for prime time (yet, in one case) or coaches we did not keep. We tended to shoot ourselves in the foot until someone woke up and realized how important basketball was to university development.

Maybe we do not get a Top 15 every year, but we need consistency and we need to strive to get there. To Wojo's credit, that's what he's working toward and I hope he gets there.

I think using pro sports as a comparison is simply wrong.  It is very difficult for pro sports teams to not automatically cycle to the top eventually because there are limited teams (talent has to go somewhere), there is a draft forcing players to come to them every year whether they want to or not.  College sports there are hundreds of options, and talent isn’t forced to come to your school. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 06, 2019, 08:57:57 AM
College sports there are hundreds of options, and talent isn’t forced to come to your school.

Technically true, but top talent will not consider hundreds of teams. Top talent ain't going to Grambling and Cornell and Kent State. Sure, it's great when a kid like Curry comes out of nowhere to be a stud for Davidson (or, more recently, Ja/Murray State), but that's a huge anamoly.

Nope, hundreds of teams are not in play for top talent. And top-top-top talent usually will not even consider several dozen teams.

I think dgies is saying he wants us to be one of the dozen or so basketball powers that top talent regularly considers -- and fairly regularly chooses.

Sure, every season a few teams emerge despite not being among the top dozen programs at recruiting. But that's a more difficult path -- you might even say a more crapshooty one.

Like dgies, I'd like to be one of those top dozen. But nice guy that I am, I'd happily accept Marquette being one of the top 2 dozen and take our chances!
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 09:07:40 AM
Hate to agree with this guy but this is the big reason for most arguments on here

I think most people believe this program can do better than it has thus far under Wojo while acknowledging we won't reach the Al days again.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 09:08:25 AM
Technically true, but top talent will not consider hundreds of teams. Top talent ain't going to Grambling and Cornell and Kent State. Sure, it's great when a kid like Curry comes out of nowhere to be a stud for Davidson (or, more recently, Ja/Murray State), but that's a huge anamoly.

Nope, hundreds of teams are not in play for top talent. And top-top-top talent usually will not even consider several dozen teams.

I think dgies is saying he wants us to be one of the dozen or so basketball powers that top talent regularly considers -- and fairly regularly chooses.

Sure, every season a few teams emerge despite not being among the top dozen programs at recruiting. But that's a more difficult path -- you might even say a more crapshooty one.

Like dgies, I'd like to be one of those top dozen. But nice guy that I am, I'd happily accept Marquette being one of the top 2 dozen and take our chances!

Not only technically true, still true.  When you have NBA or NFL players coming from schools like Navy, Colgate, Murray State, etc...the list gets into the 100's.  Grambling State has had plenty of NFL players over the years.   Schools like Hofstra, D2 schools, etc.  The number of schools that have put players into the pros is large.  May not be "top talent" in terms of how they were rated, but very good players that went on to play in the pros.

But I'll concede the point that it doesn't happen often, you still have 75 to 100 solid college basketball teams...the P5 conferences alone account for about 60 schools.  Whereas the NBA has 30 teams.  My point, which I think you know is correct, is that even badly managed or coached pro teams are gifted talent options every year....some talented players have to come there way through the draft.  And due to free agency and roster / team limitations, other good players have to land somewhere as they can't all go to a handful of teams.  The Greek freak...Milwaukee was a dud for decades in hoops but they took him in the draft.  Is he going to Milwaukee without the draft....uhm...highly unlikely. 

That option doesn't exist in college sports.  You also have transfers which you don't have in pro sports.  You are under contract, you have to stay unless you are cut.  Not the case in college sports where a coach looks at you wrong these days and players leave.

Comparing college sports to the Yankees, Packers, Cavaliers or any other pro team with how talent and limited spaces exist is not an appropriate comparison. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 09:15:32 AM
I think most people believe this program can do better than it has thus far under Wojo while acknowledging we won't reach the Al days again.

Sure, under the art of the possible, everything on the planet, could do better.  Yes, everyone knows this.  Bill Bellicheck could be doing better.  We could also do a lot worse.

Take a look at Arkansas and Tennessee football....they sure thought things were going to keep chugging along.  UCLA football made the big move, so far been a disaster and they are worse...maybe that changes.  It's easy to say we can do better because it is a universal truth.  The hard part is defining what that is and who the hell you are bringing in that is going to get you there...takes two to tango and there aren't many out there pining to come to Milwaukee for the longhaul to do it.  As a reminder, Al wanted out several times and MU blocked him.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: tower912 on December 06, 2019, 09:24:27 AM
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs?     You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys.      Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU.     There aren't.    There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon.    It just isn't so.   

I still think Wojo has upside.    I think this latest recruiting class is huge.   But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or is fired.    There are no guarantees.   Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant.      And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.   
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 09:31:21 AM
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs?     You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys.      Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU.     There aren't.    There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon.    It just isn't so.   

I still think Wojo has upside.    I think this latest recruiting class is huge.   But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or moves on.    There are no guarantees.   Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant.      And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.

Yup...been saying literally these same words for years.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 09:39:05 AM
Sure, under the art of the possible, everything on the planet, could do better.  Yes, everyone knows this.  Bill Bellicheck could be doing better.  We could also do a lot worse.

Take a look at Arkansas and Tennessee football....they sure thought things were going to keep chugging along.  UCLA football made the big move, so far been a disaster and they are worse...maybe that changes.  It's easy to say we can do better because it is a universal truth.  The hard part is defining what that is and who the hell you are bringing in that is going to get you there...takes two to tango and there aren't many out there pining to come to Milwaukee for the longhaul to do it.  As a reminder, Al wanted out several times and MU blocked him.

It's easy to say we can do better because we have.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 06, 2019, 09:47:01 AM
It's easy to say we can do better because we have.

Saying we can do better is one thing. I'm with you on that. But things like needing top 15 classes every year. Is setting up ridiculous expectations.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 09:55:04 AM
Saying we can do better is one thing. I'm with you on that. But things like needing top 15 classes every year. Is setting up ridiculous expectations.

Agree completely, which I why I said it was unrealistic as well.

And my point isn't Wojo has underachieved so let's find someone better.  My point is that's he's underachieved, so what needs to happen to make this program better?  As others who have a higher opinion of Wojo than I do have said, he's yet to make a team more than the sum of its parts.  Best remedy to me would be improving the parts then. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 06, 2019, 10:14:15 AM
Not only technically true, still true.  When you have future NBA or NFL players coming from schools like Navy, Colgate, Murray State, etc...the list gets into the 100's.  Grambling State has had plenty of NFL players over the years.   Schools like Hofstra, D2 schools, etc.  The number of schools that have put players into the pros is large.  May not be "top talent" in terms of how they were rated, but very good players that went on to play in the pros.

But I'll concede the point that it doesn't happen often, you still have 75 to 100 solid college basketball teams...the P5 conferences alone account for about 60 schools.  Whereas the NBA has 30 teams.  My point, which I think you know is correct, is that even badly managed or coached pro teams are gifted talent options every year....some talented players have to come there way through the draft.  And due to free agency and roster / team limitations, other good players have to land somewhere as they can't all go to a handful of teams.  The Greek freak...Milwaukee was a dud for decades in hoops but they took him in the draft.  Is he going to Milwaukee without the draft....uhm...highly unlikely. 

That option doesn't exist in college sports.  You also have transfers which you don't have in pro sports.  You are under contract, you have to stay unless you are cut.  Not the case in college sports where a coach looks at you wrong these days and players leave.

Comparing college sports to the Yankees, Packers, Cavaliers or any other pro team with how talent and limited spaces exist is not an appropriate comparison.

Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 06, 2019, 10:23:31 AM
Agreed, Wojo's class is a good start.  We're losing arguably the greatest scorer in MU history though, as well as Sacar, so that will need to be offset.  Hopefully another high quality class will follow soon after, but getting Karim Mane in next year's class would be a massive boon.

No doubt this class is off to a great start, but to your point - getting a guard as highly regarded as Karim Mane would take it to another level.  Next year's team will need a guy who can create a shot on their own or for others - Dawson might be that skilled, but adding a guy like Mane changes the game.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: dgies9156 on December 06, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!

Brother MU:

Nicely said. There is a fundamental difference between talent acquisition in college and professional ranks.  I just want us to be the BEST. Period.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: tower912 on December 06, 2019, 11:52:33 AM
Can this please get some love?

If hilarious Scoop One Liners was a NCAA Bracket, I'd rank this a solidly overrated five seed.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Miss Katie’s on December 06, 2019, 12:08:12 PM
Can this please get some love?

If hilarious Scoop One Liners was a NCAA Bracket, I'd rank this a solidly overrated five seed.

Somebody please make this happen. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 01:48:52 PM
It's easy to say we can do better because we have.

With different rules, different standards, a different conference.....all in the past.

Defining doing better isn’t 100% on the court, but totality of the program.  This irks some people, especially the just win folks, but they aren’t running the university or setting the guardrails for the program.  Thus comparing one regime to another without that lens is not wholly seeing the entire picture.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 02:09:14 PM
With different rules, different standards, a different conference.....all in the past.

Defining doing better isn’t 100% on the court, but totality of the program.  This irks some people, especially the just win folks, but they aren’t running the university or setting the guardrails for the program.  Thus comparing one regime to another without that lens is not wholly seeing the entire picture.

it doesn't irk anyone, it's just something you bring up to distract from Wojo underachieving on the court.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 06, 2019, 02:31:29 PM
it doesn't irk anyone, it's just something you bring up to distract from Wojo underachieving on the court.

I believe it was either TAMU or brewski (or both) who used KenPom and some of the fancy schmancy modern metrics that today's groovy kids love to show that, actually, Wojo has almost exactly met expectations every season.

While he hasn't "outperformed," which has been disappointing to many, he also hasn't "underperformed."

Hopefully one or both of them will check in to say whether or not I have that correct.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BallBoy on December 06, 2019, 02:31:44 PM
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs?     You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys.      Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU.     There aren't.    There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon.    It just isn't so.   

I still think Wojo has upside.    I think this latest recruiting class is huge.   But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or is fired.    There are no guarantees.   Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant.      And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.

When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc.

My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success.  I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 06, 2019, 02:34:07 PM
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!

getting "top 15" talent doesn't always mean a program is going to make a jump.  Look at how many of these top kids become busts.  When you're not a "blue blood" recruiting takes the ability to identify potential and a significant amount of luck. What if DePaul doesn't pass on Wade because of his grades, or Crean doesn't fight the administration to get him here?  What if Sean Miller doesn't say 'he gives up more than he scores' in regards to Markus?  What if Robert Jackson isn't dumped by Miss State, or what if there's no local kid with a preexisting relationship with Vander to encourage him to flip to MU?

I really don't care about recruiting anymore because 1) it's kind of creepy to live and die by the college decisions of an 18-year-old and/ B) nothing is guaranteed when they get to college.  Dameon Mason was going to be a solid replacement for Wade and would be better than Shannon Brown. Everyone here was pleading with Joey to come to MU and he was going to get us back to the Final Four. Harry Froling and Luke Fischer were game changers as big man transfers. The more important thing is getting coaches who can develop talent. Look at some of the Final Four teams over the past 15 years - Texas Tech, Butler (2x), VCU, George Mason, Loyola. It - and other schools that have had studs who weren't highly rated that made runs (Wichita State, Murray State) shows that you don't have to have a "top 15" class to be successful.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 06, 2019, 02:40:02 PM
When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc.

My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success.  I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.

Good comment.

Indeed, the success of K at Duke and Knight at Indiana supports dgies' comment thesis quite well. Duke under Vic Bubas and Indiana under Branch McCracken were considered outstanding programs. But both programs faltered until K and Knight arrived at their respective destinations to restore them to greatness -- or even to exceed their previous greatness. Now Indiana is searching for the next one to do so while K is still doing his thing at Duke.

Similar for Wright. Nova had been a very a good program -- including a champion -- under Rollie Massimino. But the program swooned late in Massimino's time there, Steve Lappas couldn't quite bring it back to glory and it took Wright a while to bring it to championship level.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Bad_Reporter on December 06, 2019, 02:43:48 PM
To Cheeks, and Tower,

What are your thoughts on Wojo having an All American on his roster currently, and his success on the court?   A lot of love for the incoming recruiting class (I understand completely) but Wojo also has a current player who many argue is a top 5-10 player all time at MU.

If Dawson isn’t in the discussion when his career is over at MU as a top 10 player All time, how do you predict wojos seasons are going to go?

I think Wojo needs a lot more then Dawson, (even though it’s a good start) with his coaching capabilities
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 02:48:48 PM
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!

Ok, but Harrick’s program cheated and was busted.  Carroll’s program cheated and was busted.  Saban...

We all want to be the best, but I don’t want to commit those offenses in the process. 

Fundamentally I get it...it makes me wonder what exactly has to be done to get there and what one has to turn a blind eye to for it to happen.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 06, 2019, 02:49:13 PM
When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc.

My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success.  I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.

I dont think your conclusion is accurate.  For example Boeheim went S16, 1 win, S16, S16 to start his career.  Izzo went NIT, NIT, S16, FF Champion.  Knight? - NIT, FF, No Tourney, Elite 8, Champ, No tourney.

Early success is not an indicator--sustained success sure is.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: dgies9156 on December 06, 2019, 02:51:28 PM
Some (hopefully) final thoughts of mine:

1) Success is measured two ways: Wins and losses and how deep we get into the NCAAs. Look, they'll be years where we get the booby prize -- last year being a prime example. We were bounced in 1971, 1973 and 1975 very quickly. Only twice did we make it to the Final Four in the Golden Era of MU basketball. But we were consistently good, sold out the MECCA and our team did wonderful things for the university.

2) Recruiting is only half the battle: Buzz brought in some heavyweights but I always questioned whether he could develop talent. Coach McGuire and his team did and I think Wojo is headed in this direction. The Brother who raised questions about 18-year-old decisions is spot on. Another issue is kids who play in places like Stevens Point or Rice Lake, who only get comparable talent when they play AAU ball. You sometimes wonder whether they're adequate talent in a  sub-optimal league.

I'm the first to admit the world is different than it was between 1964 and 1977. But I'll also acknowledge that good organizations adapt. For a long time, I don't think we did and we're paying the price. We have the same number of Final Four appearances since 2000 as Loyola of Chicago, forgodssake, and fewer than Butler or that disgusting rodent to the west.

Still optimistic here that Coach Wojo will get us there and he'll learn from his mistakes. Just wish we weren't his test platform. I'll admit that had we hired Cuonzo Martin or Ben Howland, both cast-offs from elsewhere, our upward trajectory would be faster but the apogee of our orbit would be lower and we'd be looking again sooner. Low earth orbit does not excite me!!!! I think that was the core of the hiring decision on Coach Wojo.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 02:57:25 PM
To Cheeks, and Tower,

What are your thoughts on Wojo having an All American on his roster currently, and his success on the court?   A lot of love for the incoming recruiting class (I understand completely) but Wojo also has a current player who many argue is a top 5-10 player all time at MU.

If Dawson isn’t in the discussion when his career is over at MU as a top 10 player All time, how do you predict wojos seasons are going to go?

I think Wojo needs a lot more then Dawson, (even though it’s a good start) with his coaching capabilities

Not All Americans are equal

MH is doing great things despite limitations in size...he and the staff have made him and AA, he doesn’t have the built on athleticism.

Doesn’t Wojo get some credit in helping him become an AA?

I look at some other programs right now with AA’s on the team and “world class” coaches struggling...why?
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 03:01:35 PM
I believe it was either TAMU or brewski (or both) who used KenPom and some of the fancy schmancy modern metrics that today's groovy kids love to show that, actually, Wojo has almost exactly met expectations every season.

While he hasn't "outperformed," which has been disappointing to many, he also hasn't "underperformed."

Hopefully one or both of them will check in to say whether or not I have that correct.

Meeting mediocre expectations makes one mediocre. Five years and only one season as a single digit seed in the tourney is underachieving.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 06, 2019, 03:02:31 PM
I'm the first to admit the world is different than it was between 1964 and 1977. But I'll also acknowledge that good organizations adapt. For a long time, I don't think we did and we're paying the price. We have the same number of Final Four appearances since 2000 as Loyola of Chicago, forgodssake, and fewer than Butler or that disgusting rodent to the west.

I'm not sure that comparing FF's is a great barometer for program success.  Pitt was one of the heaviest of hitters in the prime of the Beast.  I think they got something like three 1 seeds, didn't get a FF.  Look at the successful coaches that have been through Xavier; Matta, Miller, Mack.  Heck, some people are already convinced that Steele is better than Wojo because X is ranked higher by kenpom.  0 FFs. For the first 17 minutes of the Purdue game, it looked like we weren't even playing the same sport as them, and a lot of people think that Painter is multiple classes above Wojo.  0 FFs.  Crean has mixed reviews among our fanbase, but I don't think anyone can objectively say that he's better than Dixon, Mack, Miller, or Painter, yet he has a FF.  As much as Chicos spouts out "crapshoot" way too much, the underlying point is valid.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: djvern414 on December 06, 2019, 03:19:18 PM
..... "crapshoot" way too much, the underlying point is valid.
[/quote]

For those with the advanced stat big noggins', aside from the single elimination format are there any statistical anomalies in the "luck factor" in NCAA tournament games as compared to the regular season?  Could someone aggregate all the games and compare them on Kenpom?

Otherwise, what is the validity of the "crapshoot" aside from that any time during a season or post-season a team beats the odds?  Maybe I need to look up the definition of crapshoot....
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: tower912 on December 06, 2019, 03:37:49 PM
To Cheeks, and Tower,

What are your thoughts on Wojo having an All American on his roster currently, and his success on the court?   A lot of love for the incoming recruiting class (I understand completely) but Wojo also has a current player who many argue is a top 5-10 player all time at MU.

If Dawson isn’t in the discussion when his career is over at MU as a top 10 player All time, how do you predict wojos seasons are going to go?

I think Wojo needs a lot more then Dawson, (even though it’s a good start) with his coaching capabilities
I am glad Markus came to Marquette.    A once in a generation talent likely to score around 2800 career points before he is through.   He will probably play on teams that won between 85 and 90 games and went to the tournament 3 times.    There are worse legacies.   I hope MU wins some tourney games this year, but I won't make predictions about that in December.   All while representing Marquette with class and dignity and being willing to speak out on some big issues. 
   I think Wojo gets some credit for putting Markus in a position to succeed as he has.     Again, with Markus, it is likely that Wojo will have won 85-90 games in a four year stretch.    I don't think Wojo is a finished product and I still don't think he has made a team better than the sum of its parts,  but that 4 year win total is nothing to apologize for.
    I think Wojo needs more than Garcia, too.    Good thing he got Lewis, Oso, Symir, Koby, Bailey, Cain, Greg, Theo, Dexter for next year, too.   Hope he lands Mane.    If not, I am sure Wojo will be looking for grad transfers, like he does every year.     Needs another post player.     I have no idea what Garcia's career will look like at MU.    Tell me how many years he stays, tell me who else comes and how they develop, tell me who leaves, tell me who gets hurt.     
    Your whole point is that you don't think Wojo is a good coach.    OK.   I don't think he is as good as he is going to be.   He is not yet an alchemist nor a magician, making gold out of straw.    I think he has the potential to be that 20 year guy referenced elsewhere, unless Duke grabs him when K retires.   I can certainly see the foundation he is attempting to build.   I think if MU were to fire him, he would be snatched up in a nanosecond by someone else and could very well become a skinny Majerus, having tremendous success while MU fans wail and gnash their teeth. 
   What I don't believe is that the next guy is guaranteed to get better.   I am grateful that MU did not go with Martin or Howland.    For every Beard, there is a Groce.     
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 06, 2019, 03:53:48 PM
There were 10 Power 6 coaching changes in 2014. Wojo would clearly be considered the third most successful hire of the bunch, behind both Buzz (who is no longer at Va Tech) and Bruce Pearl.  He'd be ahead of the likes of Jim Christian, Wayne Tinkle and Danny Manning, who are currently still in those jobs but in various degrees of trouble.  And well ahead of disasters like Ernie Kent, Donnie Tyndall and Kim Anderson.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 06, 2019, 04:24:00 PM
I am glad Markus came to Marquette.    A once in a generation talent likely to score around 2800 career points before he is through.   He will probably play on teams that won between 85 and 90 games and went to the tournament 3 times.    There are worse legacies.   I hope MU wins some tourney games this year, but I won't make predictions about that in December.   All while representing Marquette with class and dignity and being willing to speak out on some big issues. 
   I think Wojo gets some credit for putting Markus in a position to succeed as he has.     Again, with Markus, it is likely that Wojo will have won 85-90 games in a four year stretch.    I don't think Wojo is a finished product and I still don't think he has made a team better than the sum of its parts,  but that 4 year win total is nothing to apologize for.
    I think Wojo needs more than Garcia, too.    Good thing he got Lewis, Oso, Symir, Koby, Bailey, Cain, Greg, Theo, Dexter for next year, too.   Hope he lands Mane.    If not, I am sure Wojo will be looking for grad transfers, like he does every year.     Needs another post player.     I have no idea what Garcia's career will look like at MU.    Tell me how many years he stays, tell me who else comes and how they develop, tell me who leaves, tell me who gets hurt.     
    Your whole point is that you don't think Wojo is a good coach.    OK.   I don't think he is as good as he is going to be.   He is not yet an alchemist nor a magician, making gold out of straw.    I think he has the potential to be that 20 year guy referenced elsewhere, unless Duke grabs him when K retires.   I can certainly see the foundation he is attempting to build.   I think if MU were to fire him, he would be snatched up in a nanosecond by someone else and could very well become a skinny Majerus, having tremendous success while MU fans wail and gnash their teeth. 
   What I don't believe is that the next guy is guaranteed to get better.   I am grateful that MU did not go with Martin or Howland.    For every Beard, there is a Groce.   

Who's guaranteeing anything?  We've had 5+ years of Wojo failing to make teams better than the sum of their parts, as well as a mismanaged locker room to end last year.  You want to be optimistic about Wojo's growth as a coach moving forward, that's fine.  That's no more guaranteed than finding a guy better than Wojo though.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: willie warrior on December 06, 2019, 04:25:46 PM
I am glad Markus came to Marquette.    A once in a generation talent likely to score around 2800 career points before he is through.   He will probably play on teams that won between 85 and 90 games and went to the tournament 3 times.    There are worse legacies.   I hope MU wins some tourney games this year, but I won't make predictions about that in December.   All while representing Marquette with class and dignity and being willing to speak out on some big issues. 
   I think Wojo gets some credit for putting Markus in a position to succeed as he has.     Again, with Markus, it is likely that Wojo will have won 85-90 games in a four year stretch.    I don't think Wojo is a finished product and I still don't think he has made a team better than the sum of its parts,  but that 4 year win total is nothing to apologize for.
    I think Wojo needs more than Garcia, too.    Good thing he got Lewis, Oso, Symir, Koby, Bailey, Cain, Greg, Theo, Dexter for next year, too.   Hope he lands Mane.    If not, I am sure Wojo will be looking for grad transfers, like he does every year.     Needs another post player.     I have no idea what Garcia's career will look like at MU.    Tell me how many years he stays, tell me who else comes and how they develop, tell me who leaves, tell me who gets hurt.     
    Your whole point is that you don't think Wojo is a good coach.    OK.   I don't think he is as good as he is going to be.   He is not yet an alchemist nor a magician, making gold out of straw.    I think he has the potential to be that 20 year guy referenced elsewhere, unless Duke grabs him when K retires.   I can certainly see the foundation he is attempting to build.   I think if MU were to fire him, he would be snatched up in a nanosecond by someone else and could very well become a skinny Majerus, having tremendous success while MU fans wail and gnash their teeth. 
   What I don't believe is that the next guy is guaranteed to get better.   I am grateful that MU did not go with Martin or Howland.    For every Beard, there is a Groce.   
Lots of words in defense of a mediocre coach. Sure glad we have such great defenses of what some perceive as mediocrity.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 06, 2019, 04:36:33 PM
There were 10 Power 6 coaching changes in 2014. Wojo would clearly be considered the third most successful hire of the bunch, behind both Buzz (who is no longer at Va Tech) and Bruce Pearl.  He'd be ahead of the likes of Jim Christian, Wayne Tinkle and Danny Manning, who are currently still in those jobs but in various degrees of trouble.  And well ahead of disasters like Ernie Kent, Donnie Tyndall and Kim Anderson.

Sure.  This is one way to look at it..we certainly could have done worse.  Yet let's look at these coaches and the programs they took over:

Wayne Tinkle - Oregon State:  Gone 26 years since an NCAA tournament until Tinkle got them there in 2016.  Not bad, actually.

Danny Manning - Wake hadn't made an NCAA in the 5 years prior to Manning taking over and took over a team previously ranked 137 and 117 the prior two years, and Wake plays in the ACC...tougher conference since 2015.

Kim Anderson -  Inherited a dumpster fire of a program in wake of Frank Haith's rampant violations.  https://www.si.com/college/2016/01/13/missouri-basketball-rules-violations-frank-haith-postseason-ban

Donnie Tyndall - Lasted 1 year at Tennessee before getting dumped due to NCAA violations at his previous job at Southern Miss.

Ernie Kent - Washington State.  Not exactly a basketball powerhouse not having made an NCAA since 2009 under Tony Bennett.  Kent inherite a team that went 10-14 the prior season.

So, context matters.  Marquette job is LIGHT YEARS beyond any of these programs.  There are basically just two negative recruiting angles against Marquette - cold winters, small school/no football.  But, we have the Al McGuire Center, MKE is an NBA town, with NBA players coming through the program frequently practicing at the AL, a rich basketball tradition, and a massive basketball budget.  A coach should perform well here. 

K.O., Crean, and Buzz, and even Deane to an extent showed what was possible at MU.  Wojo has severely underperformed all of these guys with the best situation of the bunch to sell.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 06, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
Sure.  This is one way to look at it..we certainly could have done worse.  Yet let's look at these coaches and the programs they took over:

Wayne Tinkle - Oregon State:  Gone 26 years since an NCAA tournament until Tinkle got them there in 2016.  Not bad, actually.

Danny Manning - Wake hadn't made an NCAA in the 5 years prior to Manning taking over and took over a team previously ranked 137 and 117 the prior two years, and Wake plays in the ACC...tougher conference since 2015.

Kim Anderson -  Inherited a dumpster fire of a program in wake of Frank Haith's rampant violations.  https://www.si.com/college/2016/01/13/missouri-basketball-rules-violations-frank-haith-postseason-ban

Donnie Tyndall - Lasted 1 year at Tennessee before getting dumped due to NCAA violations at his previous job at Southern Miss.

Ernie Kent - Washington State.  Not exactly a basketball powerhouse not having made an NCAA since 2009 under Tony Bennett.  Kent inherite a team that went 10-14 the prior season.

So, context matters.  Marquette job is LIGHT YEARS beyond any of these programs.  There are basically just two negative recruiting angles against Marquette - cold winters, small school/no football.  But, we have the Al McGuire Center, MKE is an NBA town, with NBA players coming through the program frequently practicing at the AL, a rich basketball tradition, and a massive basketball budget.  A coach should perform well here. 

K.O., Crean, and Buzz, and even Deane to an extent showed what was possible at MU.  Wojo has severely underperformed all of these guys with the best situation of the bunch to sell.

You give Wojo so much grief but Deane had a team coming off a sweet 16 with two future NBA players on it and did nothing. I'm confident many would agree that Wojo has exceeded deane
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: tower912 on December 06, 2019, 04:51:14 PM
Lots of words in defense of a mediocre coach. Sure glad we have such great defenses of what some perceive as mediocrity.

He asked what I perceived to be a sincere question.    I tried to give a thorough, sincere answer.    You replied with your one note snark.    yawn.   
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 06, 2019, 04:53:28 PM
You give Wojo so much grief but Deane had a team coming off a sweet 16 with two future NBA players on it and did nothing. I'm confident many would agree that Wojo has exceeded deane

While the direction in which the program was trending was what was Deane's undoing (Krunti Hester being our only signing in the 1999-2000 class and being hyped for being top 20 in Indiana) Deane's record on the court wasn't bad at all (and those future NBA guys were mid-second round picks):

1994-95 - lost three starters from the previous year, one BS foul call with .7 seconds left away from the NIT title
1995-96 - CUSA conference title game (lost in OT), 4 seed, second-round NCAA tournament exit
1996-97 - CUSA tourney title, 7 seed, lost to eventual Elite Eight team in the first round
1999-98 - NIT quarter finals, lost at Minnesota when John Cliff missed the possible game winning shot

So, HAS Wojo exceeded Deane?  He definitely has in recruiting (the advantages he has over Deane helps) but has he on the court?

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 06, 2019, 05:21:34 PM
While the direction in which the program was trending was what was Deane's undoing (Krunti Hester being our only signing in the 1999-2000 class and being hyped for being top 20 in Indiana) Deane's record on the court wasn't bad at all (and those future NBA guys were mid-second round picks):

1994-95 - lost three starters from the previous year, one BS foul call with .7 seconds left away from the NIT title
1995-96 - CUSA conference title game (lost in OT), 4 seed, second-round NCAA tournament exit
1996-97 - CUSA tourney title, 7 seed, lost to eventual Elite Eight team in the first round
1999-98 - NIT quarter finals, lost at Minnesota when John Cliff missed the possible game winning shot

So, HAS Wojo exceeded Deane?  He definitely has in recruiting (the advantages he has over Deane helps) but has he on the court?

Deane inherited three very good Kevin O'Neill recruiting classes and his on-court record was respectable as a result.
Once KO's players were gone, so were Maquette's hopes of playing in the postseason.

Oh, and you failed to include Deane's final season.
1998-99: 14-15, including 6-10 in conference.  No postseason.
 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 06, 2019, 06:00:49 PM
Sure.  This is one way to look at it..we certainly could have done worse.  Yet let's look at these coaches and the programs they took over:

Wayne Tinkle - Oregon State:  Gone 26 years since an NCAA tournament until Tinkle got them there in 2016.  Not bad, actually.

Danny Manning - Wake hadn't made an NCAA in the 5 years prior to Manning taking over and took over a team previously ranked 137 and 117 the prior two years, and Wake plays in the ACC...tougher conference since 2015.

Kim Anderson -  Inherited a dumpster fire of a program in wake of Frank Haith's rampant violations.  https://www.si.com/college/2016/01/13/missouri-basketball-rules-violations-frank-haith-postseason-ban

Donnie Tyndall - Lasted 1 year at Tennessee before getting dumped due to NCAA violations at his previous job at Southern Miss.

Ernie Kent - Washington State.  Not exactly a basketball powerhouse not having made an NCAA since 2009 under Tony Bennett.  Kent inherite a team that went 10-14 the prior season.

So, context matters.  Marquette job is LIGHT YEARS beyond any of these programs.  There are basically just two negative recruiting angles against Marquette - cold winters, small school/no football.  But, we have the Al McGuire Center, MKE is an NBA town, with NBA players coming through the program frequently practicing at the AL, a rich basketball tradition, and a massive basketball budget.  A coach should perform well here. 

So which of the coaches hired in 2014 have been more successful than Wojo?
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 06, 2019, 06:28:07 PM
So which of the coaches hired in 2014 have been more successful than Wojo?

You already answered that - Buzz and Pearl?  Wojo snagged the best job of the bunch and comes in a distant third behind Buzz and Pearl.  You may recall VaTech and Auburn weren't exactly basketball powerhouses prior to Buzz and Pearl taking them over.

Not sure why you would think for a minute the situations Tinkle, Manning, Anderson, Tyndall, Kent, Buzz and Pearl walked into are in the same area code as what Wojo inherited at MU. 

And let's nip this in the bud, this was you taking this thread back 5 years, not me.  Further, I don't disagree with you original post, but it is a little disingenuous to not provide some context around the other hires that year.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 06, 2019, 06:32:00 PM
Anyone who believes Marquette is "light years " ahead of Tennessee and Mizzou, or even Wake, is delusional.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 06, 2019, 06:34:14 PM
You already answered that - Buzz and Pearl?

So, a guy who didn't want to be at MU and - according to you, quit on his team - and an established cheater.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 06:46:28 PM
Some (hopefully) final thoughts of mine:

1) Success is measured two ways: Wins and losses and how deep we get into the NCAAs. Look, they'll be years where we get the booby prize -- last year being a prime example. We were bounced in 1971, 1973 and 1975 very quickly. Only twice did we make it to the Final Four in the Golden Era of MU basketball. But we were consistently good, sold out the MECCA and our team did wonderful things for the university.

2) Recruiting is only half the battle: Buzz brought in some heavyweights but I always questioned whether he could develop talent. Coach McGuire and his team did and I think Wojo is headed in this direction. The Brother who raised questions about 18-year-old decisions is spot on. Another issue is kids who play in places like Stevens Point or Rice Lake, who only get comparable talent when they play AAU ball. You sometimes wonder whether they're adequate talent in a  sub-optimal league.

I'm the first to admit the world is different than it was between 1964 and 1977. But I'll also acknowledge that good organizations adapt. For a long time, I don't think we did and we're paying the price. We have the same number of Final Four appearances since 2000 as Loyola of Chicago, forgodssake, and fewer than Butler or that disgusting rodent to the west.

Still optimistic here that Coach Wojo will get us there and he'll learn from his mistakes. Just wish we weren't his test platform. I'll admit that had we hired Cuonzo Martin or Ben Howland, both cast-offs from elsewhere, our upward trajectory would be faster but the apogee of our orbit would be lower and we'd be looking again sooner. Low earth orbit does not excite me!!!! I think that was the core of the hiring decision on Coach Wojo.

Wisconsin has been one of the most successful programs in college basketball in that time period.

We have more Final Fours in that period than a lot of schools that think they are “basketball” schools.

Loyola is a classic example of crapshoot.  MU’s Final Four run way harder than theirs...luck has a lot to do with NCAA tournament success.

There are just many more good programs today than back in the day.  Even adding an extra round in ‘85 means one extra win to get to the Final Four.  All those things add up to why it is so damn hard.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 06:55:01 PM
..... "crapshoot" way too much, the underlying point is valid.


For those with the advanced stat big noggins', aside from the single elimination format are there any statistical anomalies in the "luck factor" in NCAA tournament games as compared to the regular season?  Could someone aggregate all the games and compare them on Kenpom?

Otherwise, what is the validity of the "crapshoot" aside from that any time during a season or post-season a team beats the odds?  Maybe I need to look up the definition of crapshoot....

Of course.

As an example...one team makes it to the Final Four playing a 14, 6, 2 and a 1 seed.

A different final four team beats a 6, 3, 7, and 9....that was Loyola of Chicago.  They had no control over who they played.

Luck / crapshoot gets incorporated.  Having to play a school 70 miles from their base...matters.  Etc
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 06, 2019, 07:10:13 PM
You already answered that - Buzz and Pearl?  Wojo snagged the best job of the bunch and comes in a distant third behind Buzz and Pearl.  You may recall VaTech and Auburn weren't exactly basketball powerhouses prior to Buzz and Pearl taking them over.

Not sure why you would think for a minute the situations Tinkle, Manning, Anderson, Tyndall, Kent, Buzz and Pearl walked into are in the same area code as what Wojo inherited at MU. 

And let's nip this in the bud, this was you taking this thread back 5 years, not me.  Further, I don't disagree with you original post, but it is a little disingenuous to not provide some context around the other hires that year.

Pearl cheats.  The NCAA is all over him.

Buzz ....


Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BallBoy on December 06, 2019, 07:16:18 PM
I dont think your conclusion is accurate.  For example Boeheim went S16, 1 win, S16, S16 to start his career.  Izzo went NIT, NIT, S16, FF Champion.  Knight? - NIT, FF, No Tourney, Elite 8, Champ, No tourney.

Early success is not an indicator--sustained success sure is.

Boeheim was an assistant coach at Syracuse for 8 years before taking over the program. Izzo was an assistant coach for 13years at MSU before being named head coach. They were being groomed for those roles they were recruiting their players. They basically had that time to get ready take over. It would have been they same thing if Wojo stayed at Duke and took over for coach K.  They had longevity with their programs.

If you want to win in any sport consistency is key otherwise everything has to break perfectly. No injuries, peaking at the right, right path to the finals. Everything that Cheeks calls the crapshoot has to be perfectly aligned.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 06, 2019, 07:28:13 PM
even Deane to an extent showed what was possible at MU.  Wojo has severely underperformed

How embarrassing for you.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 06, 2019, 07:29:06 PM
Boeheim was an assistant coach at Syracuse for 8 years before taking over the program. Izzo was an assistant coach for 13years at MSU before being named head coach. They were being groomed for those roles they were recruiting their players. They basically had that time to get ready take over. It would have been they same thing if Wojo stayed at Duke and took over for coach K.  They had longevity with their programs.

If you want to win in any sport consistency is key otherwise everything has to break perfectly. No injuries, peaking at the right, right path to the finals. Everything that Cheeks calls the crapshoot has to be perfectly aligned.

Well I guess duke should have hired wojo.

Those were your examples, not mine.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: BallBoy on December 06, 2019, 08:46:23 PM
Well I guess duke should have hired wojo.

Those were your examples, not mine.

I am totally lost on what you are trying to say. First of all the coaches I mentioned were at their school for over 10 years before winning their first title.  Of the coaches very few have transitioned between the successful coach and the next aka large gaps or the success has been built around those coaches. 

If we take Jay Wright, he had three NITs before his first tournament. He had a six year stretch of no NCAA or first weekend only as a high seed. The school stayed with him and have been rewarded with two NCAAs.

I didn’t bring up Izzo, but you did, Izzo would fall in the category of a successful transition which there are few. He was with MSU for 13 years before taking the reins.

Boeheim was at Syracuse for 27years as HC or 35 total before his first title.  Also of interest is in his first 10 years the NCAA didn’t have 64 teams. So in reality he had 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 as in NIT - 0 as in NIT - 1 - 1 -1 wins in his first nine years. His 10 yr he was the runner-up and flamed out in the second round the following year. If we put that into today’s context it sounds impressive to say he had 3 sweet 16s but in reality he had one win a year.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: TAMU Eagle on December 06, 2019, 09:11:08 PM
There were 10 Power 6 coaching changes in 2014. Wojo would clearly be considered the third most successful hire of the bunch, behind both Buzz (who is no longer at Va Tech) and Bruce Pearl.  He'd be ahead of the likes of Jim Christian, Wayne Tinkle and Danny Manning, who are currently still in those jobs but in various degrees of trouble.  And well ahead of disasters like Ernie Kent, Donnie Tyndall and Kim Anderson.

The one coach that I think that could have been been a real candidate for us (so no Pearl, squirmy and no Beard, wasn't on anyone's radar, etc) who has done better than Wojo is Mike White at Florida. He had done enough at Louisiana Tech that I think he would have been a legitimate candidate for us and I've liked what he's done at Florida...though they are off to a rough start this season after starting top 10 in most rankings. Not sure that he would have been successful here as all of his previous stops have been in the southeast.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2019, 09:31:58 PM

Buzz ....

...has never been in trouble with the NCAA in 12+ years as a head coach at 4 different schools but has been slandered on Scoop by a hater who claimed that "other shoes" were soon to drop regarding his tenure at MU. To date (6 years later), the poster who spread this crap hasn't retracted it or apologized.


Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 06, 2019, 09:41:20 PM
Anyone who believes Marquette is "light years " ahead of Tennessee and Mizzou, or even Wake, is delusional.

Except the numbers don't lie.  Please do your homework before you want to come with your standard snarky response - and have a little more pride in Marquette.  Embarrassing.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6526

MU = 32 appearances, 41 wins, 3 Final Fours, 1 Natty

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6702

Missouri = 26 appearances, 22 wins, 0 Final Fours

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7829

Wake = 23 appearances, 28 wins, 1 Final Four

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7599

Tennessee = 20 appearances, 19 wins, 0 Final Fours
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 06, 2019, 10:31:26 PM
Except the numbers don't lie.  Please do your homework before you want to come with your standard snarky response - and have a little more pride in Marquette.  Embarrassing.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6526

MU = 32 appearances, 41 wins, 3 Final Fours, 1 Natty

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6702

Missouri = 26 appearances, 22 wins, 0 Final Fours

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7829

Wake = 23 appearances, 28 wins, 1 Final Four

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7599

Tennessee = 20 appearances, 19 wins, 0 Final Fours

Right, cause ancient history is what matters.
By this dumb metric of yours, San Francisco is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Texas Tech and  Indiana is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Virginia.
Maybe we should consider things that actually matter in 2019, and not how tournament successes from four decades ago.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 79Warrior on December 07, 2019, 12:14:09 AM
...has never been in trouble with the NCAA in 12+ years as a head coach at 4 different schools but has been slandered on Scoop by a hater who claimed that "other shoes" were soon to drop regarding his tenure at MU. To date (6 years later), the poster who spread this crap hasn't retracted it or apologized.

Please don’t hit that guy with the truth. It confuses him.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 07, 2019, 11:32:41 AM
Right, cause ancient history is what matters.
By this dumb metric of yours, San Francisco is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Texas Tech and  Indiana is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Virginia.
Maybe we should consider things that actually matter in 2019, and not how tournament successes from four decades ago.

Yet another weak post Pak.  Really.  Just stop embarrassing yourself.  Here's a fun exercise for you - go ahead and run the numbers since the year 2000 - Is the last 20 years recent enough for you? 

MU will come out comfortably ahead of Mizzou, Wake and Tennessee in all metrics (appearances, wins, Final Fours), despite us having been handcuffed with the mediocre Wojo running the program and contributing nothing in the way of NCAA wins the last 5 years.

Really sad to see a supposed MU fan/alum have such a small view of our program.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 07, 2019, 12:26:46 PM
Yet another weak post Pak.  Really.  Just stop embarrassing yourself.  Here's a fun exercise for you - go ahead and run the numbers since the year 2000 - Is the last 20 years recent enough for you? 

Oh, Ners. Your insults do a poor job of masking your bad arguments.

But fine, let's do a comparison with the Vols over the past 20 years.
Finals Fours: Marquette 1, Tennessee 0
Eight Eights: Marquette 2, Tennessee 1
Sweet 16s: Marquette 3, Tennessee 6
Round of 32s: Marquette 6, Tennessee 8
Tourney appearances: Marquette 12, Tennessee 11
Tourney record: Marquette 13-12, Tennessee: 16-10

Where's this LIGHT YEARS gap?

Now let's be smart enough to recognize that more goes into the status of a program than just tournament record.
Tennessee is the state flagship university. Marquette is not. Advantage Tennessee.
Tennessee has a P5 football program that rakes in $75+ million in annual profits for the athletic department. Marquette does not. Advantage Tennessee.
Tennessee belongs to a conference with a $2+ billion TV contract with ESPN and its own network. Annual TV revenue just from national contracts brings Tennessee about $17 million a year. Marquette belongs to a conference that has $500 million TV contract on FS1 and no conference network. Marquette gets about $4.1 million a year. Advantage Tennessee.

Anyone who objectively looks at these facts and saying Marquette is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Tennessee either is very confused by what LIGHT YEARS means or likes to say dumb things on the internet. Or maybe both.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 07, 2019, 12:52:50 PM
...has never been in trouble with the NCAA in 12+ years as a head coach at 4 different schools but has been slandered on Scoop by a hater who claimed that "other shoes" were soon to drop regarding his tenure at MU. To date (6 years later), the poster who spread this crap hasn't retracted it or apologized.

Well, technically, Buzz was suspended 1 game for an NCAA rules violation and his assistant was fired for the same.
Cheeks' "squirmy" routine has been nonsense, though.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 07, 2019, 01:07:53 PM
Well, technically, Buzz was suspended 1 game for an NCAA rules violation and his assistant was fired for the same.
Cheeks' "squirmy" routine has been nonsense, though.

Well, technically, Monarch was fired for lying to MU and the outside law firm and Buzz was suspended by MU because he was his supervisor. The NCAA penalty was a loss of one recruiting day.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: MU82 on December 07, 2019, 01:11:02 PM
...has never been in trouble with the NCAA in 12+ years as a head coach at 4 different schools but has been slandered on Scoop by a hater who claimed that "other shoes" were soon to drop regarding his tenure at MU. To date (6 years later), the poster who spread this crap hasn't retracted it or apologized.

Not only hasn't hoopaloop apologized, he hasn't presented the "other shoe" evidence he promised.

I'm also waiting for lyin' hoopaloop to accept my bet on the College Football thread.

But others are  right about Buzz's punishment.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 07, 2019, 01:27:37 PM
Well, technically, Monarch was fired for lying to MU and the outside law firm and Buzz was suspended by MU because he was his supervisor. The NCAA penalty was a loss of one recruiting day.

You know how this works, Doc.
Schools self-impose and hope the NCAA accepts that penalty in lieu of further and more serious punishment. It would be disingenuous to pretend Buzz wasn't in trouble with the NCAA because the NCAA accepted the self-imposed penalties.
Miami football was banned from two postseasons earlier this decade as part of self-imposed penalty, so I guess technically, they weren't in trouble with the NCAA. There literally are at least a dozen or more examples like this that a simple Google search will find you.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 02:53:01 PM
Well, technically, Buzz was suspended 1 game for an NCAA rules violation and his assistant was fired for the same.
Cheeks' "squirmy" routine has been nonsense, though.

Nope, and his squirminess extends beyond what you describe above.


“In the case dating back to October, one of the accused athletes said the athletes and coaching staff met and discussed the incident before any law enforcement officer was able to interview the suspects, according to Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm.”

Beyond squirmy.  https://painttouches.com/2014/03/23/greska-pulling-the-curtain-on-buzz-williams/


I could go on and on....but Mighty Mouse and the bat signal defenders will be on this like the stench was on him.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 07, 2019, 03:10:17 PM
Nope, and his squirminess extends beyond what you describe above.


“In the case dating back to October, one of the accused athletes said the athletes and coaching staff met and discussed the incident before any law enforcement officer was able to interview the suspects, according to Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm.”

Beyond squirmy.  https://painttouches.com/2014/03/23/greska-pulling-the-curtain-on-buzz-williams/


I could go on and on....but Mighty Mouse and the bat signal defenders will be on this like the stench was on him.

Your claims of squirminess came well before rape allegations, so you don't get to use that.
You've been promising us for the better part of a decade that you knew some deep dark secrets that would soon be revealed. We're still waiting.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 03:33:25 PM
Not only hasn't hoopaloop apologized, he hasn't presented the "other shoe" evidence he promised.

I'm also waiting for lyin' hoopaloop to accept my bet on the College Football thread.

But others are  right about Buzz's punishment.

No apologies needed or forthcoming...I didn’t promise a damn thing.  You journalists sure have trouble sticking to the facts.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 03:34:41 PM
Your claims of squirminess came well before rape allegations, so you don't get to use that.
You've been promising us for the better part of a decade that you knew some deep dark secrets that would soon be revealed. We're still waiting.

Correct...read what I said....”extends beyond”. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: dinger on December 07, 2019, 04:02:53 PM

Beyond squirmy.  https://painttouches.com/2014/03/23/greska-pulling-the-curtain-on-buzz-williams/

Thanks, I forgot how this article ended.

"There is a growing sentiment among the Marquette faithful that they were done wrong by a snake oil salesman. Stop with that.

Was the manner in which he left tasteful? No. Was parading himself on CBS one day later prudent? Doubtful.

But Buzz brought some of the best memories to a fanbase starved for success and exceeded all expectations placed upon him six years ago. "
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 07, 2019, 04:09:18 PM
Oh, Ners. Your insults do a poor job of masking your bad arguments.

But fine, let's do a comparison with the Vols over the past 20 years.
Finals Fours: Marquette 1, Tennessee 0
Eight Eights: Marquette 2, Tennessee 1
Sweet 16s: Marquette 3, Tennessee 6
Round of 32s: Marquette 6, Tennessee 8
Tourney appearances: Marquette 12, Tennessee 11
Tourney record: Marquette 13-12, Tennessee: 16-10

Where's this LIGHT YEARS gap?

Now let's be smart enough to recognize that more goes into the status of a program than just tournament record.
Tennessee is the state flagship university. Marquette is not. Advantage Tennessee.
Tennessee has a P5 football program that rakes in $75+ million in annual profits for the athletic department. Marquette does not. Advantage Tennessee.
Tennessee belongs to a conference with a $2+ billion TV contract with ESPN and its own network. Annual TV revenue just from national contracts brings Tennessee about $17 million a year. Marquette belongs to a conference that has $500 million TV contract on FS1 and no conference network. Marquette gets about $4.1 million a year. Advantage Tennessee.

Anyone who objectively looks at these facts and saying Marquette is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Tennessee either is very confused by what LIGHT YEARS means or likes to say dumb things on the internet. Or maybe both.

Nice try Pak, but stop embarrassing yourself. 

1)  You conveniently have failed to list the achievements of Wake Forest and Mizzou the past 20 years.

2)  Further, you had to qualify, and shrink the actual histories of the programs to try to prop up your lame original post. Tennessee has never even been to a Final Four.  We've been to 3.  If the 70s don't matter why do we have Al all over our program, showcase our National Championship trophy, Final Four appearance banners, etc?

3)  Tennessee is a football school through and through.  Marquette in NO way has been handicapped by what its been willing to spend on its basketball program.


If you are such a fan of Tennessee, please do us all a favor and quit posting here and head on over to their board.  Or, alternatively, stop having such a small-minded, chicken little view of what the MU program has been, and should be. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 04:17:17 PM
Thanks, I forgot how this article ended.

"There is a growing sentiment among the Marquette faithful that they were done wrong by a snake oil salesman. Stop with that.

Was the manner in which he left tasteful? No. Was parading himself on CBS one day later prudent? Doubtful.

But Buzz brought some of the best memories to a fanbase starved for success and exceeded all expectations placed upon him six years ago. "

Yup, for the JUST WIN fans who care nothing about scruples, ethics, following the university rules, etc...he’s your guy some beauties here by some fans that the athletic department should separate itself from the university and do whatever it wants.  There really are people that have that attitude...it is amazing to see. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 07, 2019, 04:57:25 PM
Yup, for the JUST WIN fans who care nothing about scruples, ethics, following the university rules, etc...he’s your guy some beauties here by some fans that the athletic department should separate itself from the university and do whatever it wants.  There really are people that have that attitude...it is amazing to see.

Agreed.  It’s heartwarming
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Pakuni on December 07, 2019, 05:02:08 PM
Nice try Pak, but stop embarrassing yourself. 

You're funny.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2019, 05:03:56 PM
No apologies needed or forthcoming...I didn’t promise a damn thing.  You journalists sure have trouble sticking to the facts.

Liar. Not the first time. Won’t be the last.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2019, 05:10:41 PM
Oh, Ners. Your insults do a poor job of masking your bad arguments.

But fine, let's do a comparison with the Vols over the past 20 years.
Finals Fours: Marquette 1, Tennessee 0
Eight Eights: Marquette 2, Tennessee 1
Sweet 16s: Marquette 3, Tennessee 6
Round of 32s: Marquette 6, Tennessee 8
Tourney appearances: Marquette 12, Tennessee 11
Tourney record: Marquette 13-12, Tennessee: 16-10

Where's this LIGHT YEARS gap?

Now let's be smart enough to recognize that more goes into the status of a program than just tournament record.
Tennessee is the state flagship university. Marquette is not. Advantage Tennessee.
Tennessee has a P5 football program that rakes in $75+ million in annual profits for the athletic department. Marquette does not. Advantage Tennessee.
Tennessee belongs to a conference with a $2+ billion TV contract with ESPN and its own network. Annual TV revenue just from national contracts brings Tennessee about $17 million a year. Marquette belongs to a conference that has $500 million TV contract on FS1 and no conference network. Marquette gets about $4.1 million a year. Advantage Tennessee.

Anyone who objectively looks at these facts and saying Marquette is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Tennessee either is very confused by what LIGHT YEARS means or likes to say dumb things on the internet. Or maybe both.

Same ole Ners. He’s the dude at the playground that gets dunked on repeatedly let still talks trash. Only to get dunked on again.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 07, 2019, 05:42:07 PM
Same ole Ners. He’s the dude at the playground that gets dunked on repeatedly let still talks trash. Only to get dunked on again.

The irony - coming from the guy that tried to posit that Wojo has a good job by comparing him to the other coaches that were hired in 2014 - all of whom walked into bottom feeder programs, one with major infractions that cleaned out their program via transfers, and another program (Wake) that hadn't accomplished much of anything in the 5 prior years, and is easily a bottom tier school in the ACC.

I met you halfway on your post suggesting we could have done worse than Wojo, but please have a little integrity and acknowledge that the expectations for Wojo should have been higher than those of the coaches hired at the other schools.

Unless you truly do feel that Oregon State, Washington State, Mizzou, Tennessee, Wake Forest, are programs all on our level?  If so, please go ahead and make your case for why those schools are comparable, and support with data, as I've provided.  Also, I'd appreciate it if you could go back and research how many Top 100 recruits the coaches who walked into those programs inherited.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2019, 05:45:01 PM
The irony - coming from the guy that tried to posit that Wojo has a good job by comparing him to the other coaches that were hired in 2014 - all of whom walked into bottom feeder programs, one with major infractions that cleaned out their program via transfers, and another program (Wake) that hadn't accomplished much of anything in the 5 prior years, and is easily a bottom tier school in the ACC.

I met you halfway on your post suggesting we could have done worse than Wojo, but please have a little integrity and acknowledge that the expectations for Wojo should have been higher than those of the coaches hired at the other schools.

Unless you truly do feel that Oregon State, Washington State, Mizzou, Tennessee, Wake Forest, are programs all on our level?  If so, please go ahead and make your case for why those schools are comparable, and support with data, as I've provided.  Also, I'd appreciate it if you could go back and research how many Top 100 recruits the coaches who walked into those programs inherited.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.



He dunked on you and then snapped your headband.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 05:45:32 PM
Liar. Not the first time. Won’t be the last.

Search, Pontiff...where did I promise I was revealing anything?  Never did....but sure, keep on lying that I said that.  Did I expect and should more shoes have dropped...yup.  Did I say I was revealing them...nope.


This part of this movie always makes me think of a certain basketball regime at MU...

https://youtu.be/vuuTS_WNw5w
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2019, 05:50:24 PM
Search, Pontiff...where did I promise I was revealing anything?  Never did....but sure, keep on lying that I said that.  Did I expect and should more shoes have dropped...yup.  Did I say I was revealing them...nope.


https://youtu.be/vuuTS_WNw5w


Everyone knows your lying. No matter what you are saying now.

Pathetic.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Newsdreams on December 07, 2019, 05:57:55 PM
Yo
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 06:01:49 PM

Everyone knows your lying. No matter what you are saying now.

Pathetic.

Nope, search is there.  Back it up.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 07, 2019, 07:30:25 PM
Nope, and his squirminess extends beyond what you describe above.


“In the case dating back to October, one of the accused athletes said the athletes and coaching staff met and discussed the incident before any law enforcement officer was able to interview the suspects, according to Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm.”

Beyond squirmy.  https://painttouches.com/2014/03/23/greska-pulling-the-curtain-on-buzz-williams/


I could go on and on....but Mighty Mouse and the bat signal defenders will be on this like the stench was on him.

very interesting reads, but if scott monarch and buzz were so close, how come they ain't back together?  especially now that buzz is back in texas?  there seems to have been sufficient air between the incident(s) by now.  or, are they afraid just the mere fact of rejoining will allow "journalists" to resurrect the whole schmit show
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 07:38:16 PM
very interesting reads, but if scott monarch and buzz were so close, how come they ain't back together?  especially now that buzz is back in texas?  there seems to have been sufficient air between the incident(s) by now.  or, are they afraid just the mere fact of rejoining will allow "journalists" to resurrect the whole schmit show

Have you seen Monarch’s bio which he certainly had to buy off on....he is the head coach at Grayson.

“At Marquette University (2008-12), Monarch coached and recruited a number of all-star athletes including Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder and six other NBA players and led the team to 4 NCAA Tournament appearances (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012) and back to back Sweet 16 Appearances (2011, 2012).

Maybe the word “helped lead” was causing to much heartburn. 
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 07, 2019, 07:46:06 PM
Have you seen Monarch’s bio which he certainly had to buy off on....he is the head coach at Grayson.

“At Marquette University (2008-12), Monarch coached and recruited a number of all-star athletes including Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder and six other NBA players and led the team to 4 NCAA Tournament appearances (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012) and back to back Sweet 16 Appearances (2011, 2012).

Maybe the word “helped lead” was causing to much heartburn.

right, but he's got to get what he can from the "left-overs"  just wondering why buzz hasn't asked him to rejoin him now that he is right up the road and that, according to greska, did everything but the nasty together
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 07, 2019, 07:59:16 PM
right, but he's got to get what he can from the "left-overs"  just wondering why buzz hasn't asked him to rejoin him now that he is right up the road and that, according to greska, did everything but the nasty together

I don’t think you will see those two on the sidelines together any time soon, if ever again.  They remain friends, but don’t see it happening for a number of reasons.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 07, 2019, 08:09:53 PM
You know how this works, Doc.
Schools self-impose and hope the NCAA accepts that penalty in lieu of further and more serious punishment. It would be disingenuous to pretend Buzz wasn't in trouble with the NCAA because the NCAA accepted the self-imposed penalties.
Miami football was banned from two postseasons earlier this decade as part of self-imposed penalty, so I guess technically, they weren't in trouble with the NCAA. There literally are at least a dozen or more examples like this that a simple Google search will find you.

You mean like at Alabama with Saban?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al.com/alabamafootball/2019/07/alabama-reported-16-minor-ncaa-violations-last-year.html%3foutputType=amp

Fact is, MU Admin at the time wanted to nuance Buzz out. Instead they got nuanced.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Cheeks on December 11, 2019, 08:54:20 AM
You mean like at Alabama with Saban?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al.com/alabamafootball/2019/07/alabama-reported-16-minor-ncaa-violations-last-year.html%3foutputType=amp

Fact is, MU Admin at the time wanted to nuance Buzz out. Instead they got nuanced.

Buzz wanted out for a long time...MU is more than happy with the current situation even if some of the alumni are not.



Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 11, 2019, 09:10:24 AM
very interesting reads, but if scott monarch and buzz were so close, how come they ain't back together?  especially now that buzz is back in texas?  there seems to have been sufficient air between the incident(s) by now.  or, are they afraid just the mere fact of rejoining will allow "journalists" to resurrect the whole schmit show


Maybe he just doesn't want it - he'd have to move.  Maybe Buzz doesn't think he is what he wants right now.  But I think Buzz helped him right his career after he left getting gigs at his former JUCO and with Tony Benford at North Texas.  My guess is they are still friends, but are simply no longer co-workers.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 11, 2019, 09:11:36 AM
You mean like at Alabama with Saban?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al.com/alabamafootball/2019/07/alabama-reported-16-minor-ncaa-violations-last-year.html%3foutputType=amp

Fact is, MU Admin at the time wanted to nuance Buzz out. Instead they got nuanced.

Both sides were unhappy with one another, for reasons both legitimate and petty.  Both sides handled it poorly.  Both got what they wanted.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: 79Warrior on December 11, 2019, 12:11:39 PM
Both sides were unhappy with one another, for reasons both legitimate and petty.  Both sides handled it poorly.  Both got what they wanted.

This is correct.
Title: Re: Did you guys ever think?
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 11, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
Except the numbers don't lie.  Please do your homework before you want to come with your standard snarky response - and have a little more pride in Marquette.  Embarrassing.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6526

MU = 32 appearances, 41 wins, 3 Final Fours, 1 Natty

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6702

Missouri = 26 appearances, 22 wins, 0 Final Fours

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7829

Wake = 23 appearances, 28 wins, 1 Final Four

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7599

Tennessee = 20 appearances, 19 wins, 0 Final Fours

Kenpom has tempo-free history rankings, looks like they go back to 1997. Obviously they can be parsed like anything, but:

MU #33
Tennessee #37
Missouri #45
Wake #57

I don't think the program divergence is as wide as we'd all like to think. All are good high major programs with resources & solid/strong recent histories.