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Author Topic: Did you guys ever think?  (Read 40621 times)

Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2019, 03:02:37 PM »
Sorry guys, I'm just tired of arguing about the Cowboy. He aint coming back. We probably could not have kept him no matter how hard we tried and if he was paranoid, so what. Quit debating the Cowboy. Hope he loses every game in Texas and sells burgers at McDonalds for all the nastys he said about us. As Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank says, "He's dead to me."

As to Wojo, I am not entirely happy either but I'm in his corner as long as he is our's. His history is checkered and I'm hopeful we can again be a feared blue blood!

Objectively, looking at Wojo, we've had a ride. The Ellenson team was built for a two year run. Had Henry stayed a second year, I'm pretty confident we would have had a deep run in the tournament. However, my broader concern was that while Henry was here, Wojo could not manage him. There was too much hero ball. The guy apparently didn't realize he wasn't at Rice Lake High and that our team was not "Henry and the Eagles."

Haanif's inability to put four years in here was disappointing. The Hausers were a total and complete operational breakdown. That's on Management. Period.

The inability to consistently be in the NCAA tournament is a problem and needs to be fixed post haste if Wojo expects a long-term run at MU. The debacle against Murray State was embarrassing and went against everything MU stands for in basketball. It's one thing for that to happen in a Final Four. It's another thing to have it happen against a backwater program with one star that's stretched to be called a mid-major.

The win against Villanova a few years ago and the run we had from December through early February is indicative of what could be. South Carolina and Murray State have been indicative of what "is" way too much.

I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Look, no more rebuilds. I want Wojo to succeed and I truly hope he does. We know we have something special and I hope sincerely, he's the guy. I'm just not sold yet.

Well said.  Great post.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2019, 03:04:06 PM »
Buzz's teams have accolades (S16, E8, Big East), Wojo's teams do not.  Whaddayaknow.

More than just accolades...a declining APR, all kinds of fun extra curricular media coverage for all kinds of behavior...Whaddayaknow.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2019, 03:05:03 PM »
I get how it's hard for some people to like Wojo. They only have room for one king (baron?) figure in their lives.

Ahh, politics....were you sorry, too, but the big bad bully needs to be more sorry type of sorry apology....”I’m sorry, but Billy did it first”


LOL
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 03:06:36 PM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Benny B

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2019, 03:09:20 PM »
Having had more than five years to judge, I now feel comfortable saying

I WAS RIGHT

(Can't believe this didn't go very far in the meme tourney.)


Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2019, 03:13:41 PM »
Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Sure.  I agree.  Was pretty bummed with how it all went down with Buzz - mostly the way admin changed the rules of the game.  Every action, there is a reaction - Buzz didn't handle it well, yet he also had his reasons. 

Not many coaches would stay at a school that boosts eligibility requirements above the NCAA minimums, takes away the ability to recruit players who have been great ambassadors for the university (Jae and Jimmy) solely because they couldn't meet graduation requirements based on incoming/transferable credits from JUCOs.  Yet we sure do like plastering their image and association with MU all over our program, the AL, locker room etc.

Pilarz and Williams were a disaster.  Think that is one thing all (except Chicos) can agree on.

D

I don’t know about Pilarz, Williams was doing his job.  Buzz didn’t follow the rules established by his employer and was reprimanded as a result.

Were they 8 foot rims you dunked on?
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Pakuni

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2019, 03:19:06 PM »
I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

In all fairness, though, Marquette has never had top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year under any coach, except maybe Al, but nobody tracked it back then.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2019, 03:28:00 PM »
Sorry guys, I'm just tired of arguing about the Cowboy. He aint coming back. We probably could not have kept him no matter how hard we tried and if he was paranoid, so what. Quit debating the Cowboy. Hope he loses every game in Texas and sells burgers at McDonalds for all the nastys he said about us. As Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank says, "He's dead to me."

As to Wojo, I am not entirely happy either but I'm in his corner as long as he is our's. His history is checkered and I'm hopeful we can again be a feared blue blood!

Objectively, looking at Wojo, we've had a ride. The Ellenson team was built for a two year run. Had Henry stayed a second year, I'm pretty confident we would have had a deep run in the tournament. However, my broader concern was that while Henry was here, Wojo could not manage him. There was too much hero ball. The guy apparently didn't realize he wasn't at Rice Lake High and that our team was not "Henry and the Eagles."

Haanif's inability to put four years in here was disappointing. The Hausers were a total and complete operational breakdown. That's on Management. Period.

The inability to consistently be in the NCAA tournament is a problem and needs to be fixed post haste if Wojo expects a long-term run at MU. The debacle against Murray State was embarrassing and went against everything MU stands for in basketball. It's one thing for that to happen in a Final Four. It's another thing to have it happen against a backwater program with one star that's stretched to be called a mid-major.

The win against Villanova a few years ago and the run we had from December through early February is indicative of what could be. South Carolina and Murray State have been indicative of what "is" way too much.

I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Look, no more rebuilds. I want Wojo to succeed and I truly hope he does. We know we have something special and I hope sincerely, he's the guy. I'm just not sold yet.

Top 15 recruiting classes every year?  This is your expectation in 2019?  When was the last time we had 2 straight top 15 classes?  That’s far short of every year so it feels a fair ask in my opinion.

I went back to 1999 recruiting class rankings and only 3 times in that period did we make the top 15.  That was under Deane, Crean, Buzz and Wojo regimes...but only 3 times pulled off by four coaches.

Once every five years.  I love you man, but it ain’t happening every year.  I would be ecstatic to get back to back, or even 2 out of 3...neither of which has happened in the last 20+ years.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

brewcity77

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #132 on: December 05, 2019, 03:28:03 PM »
I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Okay...this one is kind of funny. Obviously there are 15 schools with a one-year streak, the top 15 from 2019. As far as "every" year, there are only two schools that do that. Kentucky and Duke. Don't believe me? Here are the longest top-15 streaks per 247 Sports:

2 years: Kentucky, Duke, Oregon, Villanova, North Carolina, Kansas
3 years: Kentucky, Duke, Oregon, Kansas
4 years: Kentucky, Duke

So unless you are K or Cal, no one meets that expectation.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #133 on: December 05, 2019, 03:31:13 PM »
Buzz apparently had a major brain fart then in the Big East tournament when Deonte was tearing Xavier apart, and he put him on the bench with ~8 minutes left in the 2nd half, only to bring him back for the last 30 seconds.  4 days later his contract was inked with VaTech.  You know..the guy who doesn't even have an agent, and negotiates his own contracts.  I'm sure the first conversations with VATech took place the day after we lost. 

No, you're not continuing to regurgitate something that occurred five and a half years ago.

Nice find.  Certainly probably a degree of truth here, yet he had to spin leaving a program like Marquette for a bottom dweller like VaTech.  It was pretty common knowledge that the relationship between Buzz and admin has soured dramatically over the course of his last 12 months at MU.

I mean, why would anyone think that?

Well, as you know, I was a massive Deonte fan, and never felt he should have been 4th off the bench, or wasn't one of the best players on that team.  At the time, it sure didn't make sense to me to bench the guy who was far and away your best player in the game during the cruical closing 8 minutes of that game.

It's a mystery.
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brewcity77

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #134 on: December 05, 2019, 03:41:49 PM »
Well, as you know, I was a massive Deonte fan, and never felt he should have been 4th off the bench, or wasn't one of the best players on that team.  At the time, it sure didn't make sense to me to bench the guy who was far and away your best player in the game during the cruical closing 8 minutes of that game.

YOU'RE TRYING TO RELITIGATE THE MINUTE DISTRIBUTION FROM A GAME 4 YEARS AGO!!! WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?

« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 03:43:32 PM by brewcity77 »
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #135 on: December 05, 2019, 03:58:42 PM »
YOU'RE TRYING TO RELITIGATE THE MINUTE DISTRIBUTION FROM A GAME 4 YEARS AGO!!! WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?


Pretty sure it was over 4 years ago
Maigh Eo for Sam

brewcity77

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #136 on: December 05, 2019, 04:01:42 PM »
Pretty sure it was over 4 years ago

You're right, it was almost exactly 5.
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dgies9156

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #137 on: December 05, 2019, 06:26:41 PM »
Top 15 recruiting classes every year?  This is your expectation in 2019?  When was the last time we had 2 straight top 15 classes?  That’s far short of every year so it feels a fair ask in my opinion.

I went back to 1999 recruiting class rankings and only 3 times in that period did we make the top 15.  That was under Deane, Crean, Buzz and Wojo regimes...but only 3 times pulled off by four coaches.

Once every five years.  I love you man, but it ain’t happening every year.  I would be ecstatic to get back to back, or even 2 out of 3...neither of which has happened in the last 20+ years.

Brother Cheeks:

Yeah, I rather do expect that. We may fall short, but if we're not consistently pulling in the best or near-best, we aren't competing for a Natty.

Period.

I don't care what our recent past has been. If our expectation is for Wojo to deliver a Natty someday, then hell ya, we better be a consistent Top 15 recruiting class. I can see where once in awhile we might fall short but geez, what's the goal here.

Maybe you young whippersnappers (Get off my damn lawn, will ya) think that getting to the tournament is a big deal. Or that a Sweet 16 is the apogee for the program. To that I say, "bullcrap." We are Marquette, forgodssake! We should demand better.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #138 on: December 05, 2019, 06:47:44 PM »
Brother Cheeks:

Yeah, I rather do expect that. We may fall short, but if we're not consistently pulling in the best or near-best, we aren't competing for a Natty.

Period.

I don't care what our recent past has been. If our expectation is for Wojo to deliver a Natty someday, then hell ya, we better be a consistent Top 15 recruiting class. I can see where once in awhile we might fall short but geez, what's the goal here.

Maybe you young whippersnappers (Get off my damn lawn, will ya) think that getting to the tournament is a big deal. Or that a Sweet 16 is the apogee for the program. To that I say, "bullcrap." We are Marquette, forgodssake! We should demand better.

Can someone look into the recruits of the past few years finals participants? I guarantee they didn't have top 15 classes every year. In fact I'd wager they just had low transfer rates
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Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2019, 06:48:19 PM »
Top 15 classes every year isn't realistic, but there's a definite need for an upgrade in talent, and more than one class's worth.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2019, 07:15:57 PM »
Top 15 classes every year isn't realistic, but there's a definite need for an upgrade in talent, and more than one class's worth.

What were your thoughts on sam Markus and bailey's class?

Joey?
Symir?

We won't always have scholarships for a top 15 class. transfers and other weird stuff (morman missions) happen.
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BallBoy

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2019, 07:52:59 PM »
I went back to 1999 recruiting class rankings and only 3 times in that period did we make the top 15.  That was under Deane, Crean, Buzz and Wojo regimes...but only 3 times pulled off by four coaches.

According to 247 it happened 4 times in the last 20 years which were 2005, 2009, 2013 and 2015. If the 2020 class stays in the current spot they will also be top 15 which would make 5. Of the classes 2005 had the fewest transfers at MU. 2013 would be the worse as only 1 stayed. 2015 had a one and done, two transfers and two four year players. 2009 was a big class but the 4 stars were busts but had two 3star juco studs.

In other words our top 15 classes haven’t been our most successful. Wojo should have 2 top 15 classes.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2019, 08:16:55 PM »
According to 247 it happened 4 times in the last 20 years which were 2005, 2009, 2013 and 2015. If the 2020 class stays in the current spot they will also be top 15 which would make 5. Of the classes 2005 had the fewest transfers at MU. 2013 would be the worse as only 1 stayed. 2015 had a one and done, two transfers and two four year players. 2009 was a big class but the 4 stars were busts but had two 3star juco studs.

In other words our top 15 classes haven’t been our most successful. Wojo should have 2 top 15 classes.

Suprised Markus Sam and Bailey weren't
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Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #143 on: December 05, 2019, 08:20:30 PM »
Top 15 classes every year isn't realistic, but there's a definite need for an upgrade in talent, and more than one class's worth.

Well, we have one to build off.  Again, only 3 times in 20 years have we had such a class, 4th one coming next year. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

BallBoy

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #144 on: December 05, 2019, 08:52:14 PM »
Suprised Markus Sam and Bailey weren't

They were 22 according to 247. A top 15 class is fun but quantity of players also impacts the ratings. In that class MU only had three players. All of which were top 100 but 60-100 range. Other schools with more recruits will jump if the quality numbers are close.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #145 on: December 05, 2019, 09:00:56 PM »
Brother Cheeks:

Yeah, I rather do expect that. We may fall short, but if we're not consistently pulling in the best or near-best, we aren't competing for a Natty.

Period.

I don't care what our recent past has been. If our expectation is for Wojo to deliver a Natty someday, then hell ya, we better be a consistent Top 15 recruiting class. I can see where once in awhile we might fall short but geez, what's the goal here.

Maybe you young whippersnappers (Get off my damn lawn, will ya) think that getting to the tournament is a big deal. Or that a Sweet 16 is the apogee for the program. To that I say, "bullcrap." We are Marquette, forgodssake! We should demand better.

With all due respect, this is why I think we have a fan base detached from reality.  We won a natty because of a once in a lifetime coach in Al McGuire.  Doesn't mean we cannot be a very good program, and maybe sneak into a Final Four and get one, but what you are talking about I don't see possible.  It's been 40 years for a reason.  Look at the schools that are doing what you call for, they almost all have football, warm weather, major $$$ from conference TV money, etc.

It's not a matter of thinking it's a big deal, I think some of you more seasoned folks are stuck in a time warp that isn't coming back.  Al isn't walking through that door, but doesn't mean we cannot be a damn good program considering the investment.  Don't forget when Al was doing great, the Big East didn't exist, Wisconsin was a complete joke and scholarship limits were higher.  Things have changed drastically since those days, including the dispersion of talent, money to big conferences, and Wisconsin has become a player in our own backyard.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #146 on: December 05, 2019, 09:03:02 PM »
According to 247 it happened 4 times in the last 20 years which were 2005, 2009, 2013 and 2015. If the 2020 class stays in the current spot they will also be top 15 which would make 5. Of the classes 2005 had the fewest transfers at MU. 2013 would be the worse as only 1 stayed. 2015 had a one and done, two transfers and two four year players. 2009 was a big class but the 4 stars were busts but had two 3star juco studs.

In other words our top 15 classes haven’t been our most successful. Wojo should have 2 top 15 classes.

My apologies, thought it was 3...I'll go with your 4.  I think the point still stands, it almost never happens at MU and quite frankly doesn't happen at most schools.  The schools where it does happen, look and act very little like MU. 

I get the desire to demand to be the best, but at some point some realism or magic needs to be acquired. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #147 on: December 05, 2019, 09:26:19 PM »
I get the desire to demand to be the best, but at some point some realism or magic needs to be acquired.

Hate to agree with this guy but this is the big reason for most arguments on here
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dgies9156

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2019, 07:00:48 AM »
With all due respect, this is why I think we have a fan base detached from reality.  We won a natty because of a once in a lifetime coach in Al McGuire.  Doesn't mean we cannot be a very good program, and maybe sneak into a Final Four and get one, but what you are talking about I don't see possible.  It's been 40 years for a reason.  Look at the schools that are doing what you call for, they almost all have football, warm weather, major $$$ from conference TV money, etc.

It's not a matter of thinking it's a big deal, I think some of you more seasoned folks are stuck in a time warp that isn't coming back.  Al isn't walking through that door, but doesn't mean we cannot be a damn good program considering the investment.

Brother Cheeks:

As a "more seasoned" Warrior fan, I could not disagree with you more. I'll concede that it is time to move away from Al (and stoutly agree with Brother Goose on this matter) but to suggest that we cannot be a blue blood again is absurd on its face.

Your comment is akin to looking to the New York Yankees and saying an aspiration goal of having a team like they did in the 1950s is absurd. The notion that the New York Yankees will be World Champions every year but three probably is absurd but the notion that they commit to the best farm system, best training and development, best coaches and best Big League players is not. That, my brother, is the goal I would hope Marquette would aim for in college basketball.

Second, for you young whippersnappers, it was not all seashells and balloons during the McGuire era either. We did not annually win an NCAA title. There was a team called U-C-L-A that did. Fate, bad luck and guys now known as Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton were a major catalyst in UCLA's success. But we never stopped trying and we finally climbed the mountain in 1977.

Third, I am so tired of this crap that Marquette can't compete because of the cold weather, the Power 5 or the emergence of other nearby basketball powers that I could scream. If you believe this nonsense, I suggest you turn in your sweater vest, move to College Station and support the idiot who first openly promulgated that theory. What has football got to do with Duke's, North Carolina's or Maryland's success? Not a damn thing!

I recall another time when it was said the Green Bay Packers were irrelevant, that certain star players did not want to play in Green Bay and that the franchise's aspirational goal of being what they were in the 1960s was absurd. Something about who would want to play in Green Bay in December? Yeah, there were not massive amounts of new Lombardis in the trophy case in Green Bay, but the team is aspiring to get back to what it once was.

Finally, we went 40 years without a return to excellence because of a confluence of factors that had nothing to do with macro factors in basketball. We made a bad decision on hiring Al's replacement. We then hired a string of coaches who were not ready for prime time (yet, in one case) or coaches we did not keep. We tended to shoot ourselves in the foot until someone woke up and realized how important basketball was to university development.

Maybe we do not get a Top 15 every year, but we need consistency and we need to strive to get there. To Wojo's credit, that's what he's working toward and I hope he gets there.


Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #149 on: December 06, 2019, 08:06:33 AM »
Well, we have one to build off.  Again, only 3 times in 20 years have we had such a class, 4th one coming next year.

Agreed, Wojo's class is a good start.  We're losing arguably the greatest scorer in MU history though, as well as Sacar, so that will need to be offset.  Hopefully another high quality class will follow soon after, but getting Karim Mane in next year's class would be a massive boon.