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Author Topic: Did you guys ever think?  (Read 40611 times)

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2019, 10:02:18 AM »
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.

Theres all sorts of wrong in here.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2019, 10:14:44 AM »
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.




None of these are conspiracy theories. They are reasons. Some may be valid. Others may not be. None of them involve a conspiracy.

Buzz’s last year is very explainable when you look at the talent that left and his poor recruiting populating the junior and sophomore classes. You have to develop conspiracies to believe it had something to do other than the lack of talent.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2019, 10:17:27 AM »
Furthermore why are you so insistent in continuously debating what happened five plus years ago?  It’s over. Buzz is gone. He’s even gone from the job he left us for. It’s time for you to move on.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2019, 10:22:48 AM »

None of these are conspiracy theories. They are reasons. Some may be valid. Others may not be. None of them involve a conspiracy.

Buzz’s last year is very explainable when you look at the talent that left and his poor recruiting populating the junior and sophomore classes. You have to develop conspiracies to believe it had something to do other than the lack of talent.

Gotcha.  You call them reasons, I call them excuses.

As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

As for the post I made, it is debating what has happened over the course of each of the last five years, not five years ago.

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2019, 10:52:52 AM »
Gotcha.  You call them reasons, I call them excuses.

As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

As for the post I made, it is debating what has happened over the course of each of the last five years, not five years ago.

Buzz knew he was in for another underpefroming year the following year with the roster he had and jumped for the first big football school that had all upside & no downside to hang out for a few years before he got back to Texas. I loved his teams but it's pretty clear in retrospect. Once things got a little bit tough he jumped ship.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2019, 11:30:40 AM »
Gotcha.  You call them reasons, I call them excuses.

As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

As for the post I made, it is debating what has happened over the course of each of the last five years, not five years ago.

Bringing up your tin foil hat theories about Buzz back in 2013-14 is indeed debating things that happened five plus years ago.

Scoop doesn’t need its version of Alex Jones. Grow up. Move on. Get with the times.
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Pakuni

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2019, 11:39:48 AM »
As for Buzz underperforming his last year at MU, you call it lack of talent, I call it performance reflective of a disgruntled employee.

Your theory reflects worse on Buzz, you know?
It's one thing to do your best and come up short. It happens.
Tanking because your feels got hurt just makes you an a-hole.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2019, 12:33:38 PM »
Bringing up your tin foil hat theories about Buzz back in 2013-14 is indeed debating things that happened five plus years ago.

Scoop doesn’t need its version of Alex Jones. Grow up. Move on. Get with the times.

Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Your theory reflects worse on Buzz, you know?
It's one thing to do your best and come up short. It happens.
Tanking because your feels got hurt just makes you an a-hole.

Sure.  I agree.  Was pretty bummed with how it all went down with Buzz - mostly the way admin changed the rules of the game.  Every action, there is a reaction - Buzz didn't handle it well, yet he also had his reasons. 

Not many coaches would stay at a school that boosts eligibility requirements above the NCAA minimums, takes away the ability to recruit players who have been great ambassadors for the university (Jae and Jimmy) solely because they couldn't meet graduation requirements based on incoming/transferable credits from JUCOs.  Yet we sure do like plastering their image and association with MU all over our program, the AL, locker room etc.

Pilarz and Williams were a disaster.  Think that is one thing all (except Chicos) can agree on.



#UnleashSean

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2019, 12:41:22 PM »
Yeah and when that gets pointed out it’s because Buzz quit on the team to stick it to the administration.

Wait... Isn't that your argument anytime someone brings up buzz

Lennys Tap

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2019, 12:54:53 PM »


Buzz’s last year is very explainable when you look at the talent that left and his poor recruiting populating the junior and sophomore classes. You have to develop conspiracies to believe it had something to do other than the lack of talent.

I agree that the tanking idea is ridiculous. And I agree with your short on talent take. But I do think that an unhappy employee with one foot out the door (probably  unconsciously) gives less than his best effort.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2019, 01:03:49 PM »
I agree that the tanking idea is ridiculous. And I agree with your short on talent take. But I do think that an unhappy employee with one foot out the door (probably  unconsciously) gives less than his best effort.

I think highly of Buzz and don’t believe it would impact his on court performance that much.
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brewcity77

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2019, 01:05:56 PM »
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

Belaboring a long dead point.

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

Belaboring a long dead point.

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

Belaboring a long dead point.

You wonder why people get upset at you, this is why. Everyone has moved on, yet you get banned over the same crap time and time again, and when you decide "oh, my being banned doesn't count any more, I'll create a new account" you come back and immediately are beating the same dead horses you've been whipping for literally 5+ years.

Then you get upset and argue about these same things, blaming others for not accepting your viewpoint. We're all done with these topics. They aren't relevant. Move on and maybe we can all get along. Or keep posting the same stuff you were previously banned for and see how that works out. But spoiler alert, we all know how that works out.
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Pakuni

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2019, 01:09:19 PM »
I think highly of Buzz and don’t believe it would impact his on court performance that much.

Same.
Buzz didn't recruit like he had a foot out the door or was disgruntled.
He just put together a roster that didn't work very well and - for all the praise the Nojos give it  - didn't figure out a way to get a strong freshman class involved.
For all the "Wojo glued Deonte to the bench" nonsense from one particular Scooper, Buzz played him even less.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2019, 01:11:14 PM »
You wonder why people get upset at you, this is why. Everyone has moved on, yet you get banned over the same crap time and time again, and when you decide "oh, my being banned doesn't count any more, I'll create a new account" you come back and immediately are beating the same dead horses you've been whipping for literally 5+ years.
The Ners v13 experiment is working out exactly as everyone could have predicted then.  Much like Chicos v9.
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wadesworld

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #114 on: December 05, 2019, 01:22:32 PM »
The Ners v13 experiment is working out exactly as everyone could have predicted then.  Much like Chicos v9.

Agreed.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #115 on: December 05, 2019, 01:57:24 PM »
Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Actually I didn't, was responding to another post. Buzz tried to squeeze every bit of talent he could out of that last roster but even his coaching genius couldn't do it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:02:06 PM by TAMU Garcia »
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BallBoy

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2019, 02:21:31 PM »
Actually TAMU brought up conspiracy theories, and I simply pointed out the varying "reasons" given for Wojo's mediocre performance.

Not many coaches would stay at a school that boosts eligibility requirements above the NCAA minimums, takes away the ability to recruit players who have been great ambassadors for the university (Jae and Jimmy) solely because they couldn't meet graduation requirements based on incoming/transferable credits from JUCOs.  Yet we sure do like plastering their image and association with MU all over our program, the AL, locker room etc.


Buzz didn't leave because of who he could recruit.  He left because he was scared.  He looked at the numbers, said the Big East doesn't have football, non-football schools don't win, schools without ESPN don't win, and MU fans would turn on him when he put out a losing product.  At which point, he would likely not get a better job so he left for a no pressure, upside only opportunity in a power conference and made the most of it.  He then immediately jumped ship.

He didn't give up the last season, he just had a bad team.  You never seem to talk about how the team may have given up on him, or the bad chemistry he helped cultivate or how Todd Mayo was a cancer but anything Wojo touches has to be seen as negative.

Here is the story from Buzz and Chew from 2013. 

"https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/new-faces-new-places-why-did-buzz-williams-leave-marquette-for-vt/

The important stuff but I highlighted that Buzz most likely saw the next 6 years or the Wojo years as bad years for himself. 

Simply put, once Williams decided to go into what he called an "information-gathering mode," his mind wouldn't rest until he had more data than you can imagine. He projected the likelihood of basketball programs not connected to football programs flourishing over the next 10 years in this ever-changing climate of college athletics. He studied how many programs succeed at a high level without some sort of ESPN contract. He estimated whether it was reasonable to expect the next six years at Marquette would duplicate or exceed the previous six. He researched every coach who has been at a high-major program for at least eight seasons to the point where he learned that staying in the same place too long in this era -- especially when you'll be inheriting a new athletic director soon, like he would've been at Marquette -- proves to be a mistake more often than not.

The second interesting thing was how often Williams began a sentence in that meeting with the words "when they fire me" because I've never heard a coach, particularly a successful one who has never been on the so-called hot seat, speak that way, especially not a coach with a fresh contract. And yet he said it over and over again.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2019, 02:35:03 PM »
Actually I didn't, was responding to another post. Buzz tried to squeeze every bit of talent he could out of that last roster but even his coaching genius couldn't do it.

Buzz apparently had a major brain fart then in the Big East tournament when Deonte was tearing Xavier apart, and he put him on the bench with ~8 minutes left in the 2nd half, only to bring him back for the last 30 seconds.  4 days later his contract was inked with VaTech.  You know..the guy who doesn't even have an agent, and negotiates his own contracts.  I'm sure the first conversations with VATech took place the day after we lost. 

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2019, 02:44:54 PM »
Buzz apparently had a major brain fart then in the Big East tournament when Deonte was tearing Xavier apart, and he put him on the bench with ~8 minutes left in the 2nd half, only to bring him back for the last 30 seconds.  4 days later his contract was inked with VaTech.  You know..the guy who doesn't even have an agent, and negotiates his own contracts.  I'm sure the first conversations with VATech took place the day after we lost.

So your proof is that Buzz didn't ride the 4th guy off the bench in crunch time of a must win game? Riding the hot hand is one strategy, trusting your players who have been the best all season is another. From what I remember of Buzz, he usually was more of the latter than the former.

It's only a brain fart if you lose. If you win, you get praised for anticipating what others didn't.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:47:09 PM by TAMU Garcia »
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Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2019, 02:46:02 PM »
Buzz didn't leave because of who he could recruit.  He left because he was scared.  He looked at the numbers, said the Big East doesn't have football, non-football schools don't win, schools without ESPN don't win, and MU fans would turn on him when he put out a losing product.  At which point, he would likely not get a better job so he left for a no pressure, upside only opportunity in a power conference and made the most of it.  He then immediately jumped ship.

He didn't give up the last season, he just had a bad team.  You never seem to talk about how the team may have given up on him, or the bad chemistry he helped cultivate or how Todd Mayo was a cancer but anything Wojo touches has to be seen as negative.

Here is the story from Buzz and Chew from 2013. 

"https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/new-faces-new-places-why-did-buzz-williams-leave-marquette-for-vt/

The important stuff but I highlighted that Buzz most likely saw the next 6 years or the Wojo years as bad years for himself. 

Simply put, once Williams decided to go into what he called an "information-gathering mode," his mind wouldn't rest until he had more data than you can imagine. He projected the likelihood of basketball programs not connected to football programs flourishing over the next 10 years in this ever-changing climate of college athletics. He studied how many programs succeed at a high level without some sort of ESPN contract. He estimated whether it was reasonable to expect the next six years at Marquette would duplicate or exceed the previous six. He researched every coach who has been at a high-major program for at least eight seasons to the point where he learned that staying in the same place too long in this era -- especially when you'll be inheriting a new athletic director soon, like he would've been at Marquette -- proves to be a mistake more often than not.

The second interesting thing was how often Williams began a sentence in that meeting with the words "when they fire me" because I've never heard a coach, particularly a successful one who has never been on the so-called hot seat, speak that way, especially not a coach with a fresh contract. And yet he said it over and over again.

Nice find.  Certainly probably a degree of truth here, yet he had to spin leaving a program like Marquette for a bottom dweller like VaTech.  It was pretty common knowledge that the relationship between Buzz and admin has soured dramatically over the course of his last 12 months at MU.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2019, 02:48:58 PM »
So your proof is that Buzz didn't ride the 4th guy off the bench in crunch time of a must win game? Riding the hot hand is one strategy, trusting your players who have been the best all season is another. From what I remember of Buzz, he usually was more of the latter than the former.

Well, as you know, I was a massive Deonte fan, and never felt he should have been 4th off the bench, or wasn't one of the best players on that team.  At the time, it sure didn't make sense to me to bench the guy who was far and away your best player in the game during the cruical closing 8 minutes of that game.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2019, 02:49:49 PM »
Suggesting Buzz fans have conspiracy theories because he had one outlier of a year, in his last at MU when it was widely known he was at odds with Admin?  Okay.  Let's review the conspiracy theories put forth by the handful of vocal Wojo supporters who happen to be among this sites most "prolific" and voluminous posters:

- It took Jay Wright and Coach K awhile to get their programs going/first NCAA wins - at Army and Hofstra - so why should we expect Wojo to do any better at a program like Marquette coming off NCAA appearances in 8 of the 9 years prior to Wojo taking the helm? 

- Wojo was handcuffed having to play Buzz's players - "He didn't have his own guys."  (Yet to date still his best season at MU.)

- The "empty cupboard" of 7 inherited Top 100 players, all of whom are playing professionally in either the NBA, G-League, or in Europe.

- Nearly 20 years at Coach K's side wasn't enough to fully get what it takes to go from assistant coach to head coach.  (Yet in Year 5 as head coach at MU his team implodes.)

- Wojo wasn't an assistant at MU, therefore his job taking over the Marquette job was so much harder than had he been an MU assistant.  Weak at best.

- The Hausers were selfish kittens for transferring out.  (No failure of leadership here.)

- It takes 5 years to judge a coach, yet after a year 5 implosion?  (Nothing to see here.)

End of the day, he's been the worst coach at MU since Bob Dukiet through five years.  Maybe your patience will be rewarded with some occasional NCAA wins, yet he won't come close to achieving what Buzz did at MU, even if he's here another 5 years.

It was so widely known how at odds he was with that fans, his media cronies, etc were all stunned when he left....widely known.   Sure, he had plenty of disagreements, he was punished (as he should have been), but let’s not pretend it people knew he was leaving.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2019, 02:52:31 PM »
I think highly of Buzz and don’t believe it would impact his on court performance that much.

Not "that much", I agree. But unconsciously, probably (IMO) a little.

dgies9156

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2019, 02:55:11 PM »
Sorry guys, I'm just tired of arguing about the Cowboy. He aint coming back. We probably could not have kept him no matter how hard we tried and if he was paranoid, so what. Quit debating the Cowboy. Hope he loses every game in Texas and sells burgers at McDonalds for all the nastys he said about us. As Kevin O'Leary on Shark Tank says, "He's dead to me."

As to Wojo, I am not entirely happy either but I'm in his corner as long as he is our's. His history is checkered and I'm hopeful we can again be a feared blue blood!

Objectively, looking at Wojo, we've had a ride. The Ellenson team was built for a two year run. Had Henry stayed a second year, I'm pretty confident we would have had a deep run in the tournament. However, my broader concern was that while Henry was here, Wojo could not manage him. There was too much hero ball. The guy apparently didn't realize he wasn't at Rice Lake High and that our team was not "Henry and the Eagles."

Haanif's inability to put four years in here was disappointing. The Hausers were a total and complete operational breakdown. That's on Management. Period.

The inability to consistently be in the NCAA tournament is a problem and needs to be fixed post haste if Wojo expects a long-term run at MU. The debacle against Murray State was embarrassing and went against everything MU stands for in basketball. It's one thing for that to happen in a Final Four. It's another thing to have it happen against a backwater program with one star that's stretched to be called a mid-major.

The win against Villanova a few years ago and the run we had from December through early February is indicative of what could be. South Carolina and Murray State have been indicative of what "is" way too much.

I'm also concerned we don't seem to be having Top 15 recruiting classes EVERY year, which is one place we need to be. Next year's is great but we will wave in the wind unless we have another guard who can lead the post-Markus scoring effort. Long-term, we'll need another center as well. If he can do this, the tournaments will come and we'll be back.

Look, no more rebuilds. I want Wojo to succeed and I truly hope he does. We know we have something special and I hope sincerely, he's the guy. I'm just not sold yet.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:57:53 PM by dgies9156 »

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2019, 02:56:10 PM »
Buzz's teams have accolades (S16, E8, Big East), Wojo's teams do not.  Whaddayaknow.

More than just accolades...
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

 

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