I feel like WI and CU were exciting and got us all excited for things that just weren't quite meant to be. About time we all head back to our initial expectations or for some of us straight apathy for this season.
I suggest a dosage of green spot, followed by a Bordeaux with a lamb roast. Finish with a barrel aged stout. It'll cure all this pain.
i was wondering if the overall fan base has grown apathetic toward the program to an extent. I didnt feel much about this game. idk just feels to normal. btw does this board feel like it has less trafic since back 7 or 8 years ago? idk
Quote from: Johnny B on December 24, 2020, 12:42:08 AM
i was wondering if the overall fan base has grown apathetic toward the program to an extent. I didnt feel much about this game. idk just feels to normal. btw does this board feel like it has less trafic since back 7 or 8 years ago? idk
Hard to compare based on traffic since about 30 of the daily accounts were Chico's
But yeah, I mean I've gone in less than 10yrs from camping out for games against ND and UW, & getting voted Big East Fan of the Week (won me free courtside seats to the 2013 BE Tournament) to instead just making a good dinner and checking the score because I didn't think we had a shot. I imagine there's more than a few of the other posters who have similar feelings now.
Come March, it will have been 8 years since we won a tournament game. (The poster who was mentioned above would laughably find some way to put that on Buzz.) 8 years is two graduating classes of Marquette students, damn near an entire generation of alums who won't have witnessed success on the court. Not great.
What a terrible game. It really hurts. Is it reality that we're just not that good? Or was Villanova really good? I was optimistic this year because of wojo's recruiting. But, he still can't win. It seemed that Buzz won with less talent. My gut feeling is that our coaching is the problem. This game made it obvious what happens when a high quality coached team plays us with a so-so game coach who can't adjust to game situations.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 24, 2020, 05:29:32 AM
What a terrible game. It really hurts. Is it reality that we're just not that good? Or was Villanova really good? I was optimistic this year because of wojo's recruiting. But, he still can't win. It seemed that Buzz won with less talent. My gut feeling is that our coaching is the problem. This game made it obvious what happens when a high quality coached team plays us with a so-so game coach who can't adjust to game situations.
Bishop on Creighton looks like a much better player than Dawson. Why?
It's starting to feel a lot like the late Mike Deane years. My guess is that the FF would be pretty quiet with fans there.
I think it's settling in that this is what we are under Wojo, and people are tired of getting their expectations up only to see the bottom fall out. Especially when the same circumstances that have led to disappointment before, the turnovers, the defense, haven't really changed. Different players, same results. I love the team and the talent. Wojo is a great guy as your top assistant coach. But that's not the role he's in, and it shows.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 24, 2020, 06:14:24 AM
It's starting to feel a lot like the late Mike Deane years. My guess is that the FF would be pretty quiet with fans there.
Mike Deane is dead? God, I hope he was buried with his seat belt on.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 24, 2020, 05:29:32 AM
What a terrible game. It really hurts. Is it reality that we're just not that good? Or was Villanova really good? I was optimistic this year because of wojo's recruiting. But, he still can't win. It seemed that Buzz won with less talent. My gut feeling is that our coaching is the problem. This game made it obvious what happens when a high quality coached team plays us with a so-so game coach who can't adjust to game situations.
in this the 7th year of Wojo, assistant coaches have turned over. Players have cycled through. The constant is the HC...and the results do not change. This, in turn, has created apathy. For example, in Milwaukee, MU is an afterthought in local tv and radio sports. Does anyone talk MU? Other than scoopers, nope. My biggest fear is the current MU admin is apathetic to the basketball program, it's history, what it means to the students, alumni et al. Lovell needs to go, but that's another topic. Would Father Wild put up with what's taking place with this program? No way! And that gets back to Wojo. Coaching at this level is huge! I don't have an answer on a replacement...hey Bo Ryan, any interest?, but what's taking place here can't continue. For the overall health of MU athletics, this can't continue. As SilentVerbal stated, 2classes of students are filtering through having experienced zero ncaa tourney wins...similar to the Majerus/Dukiet era, and completely unacceptable! btw, imagine how it would be having a top 15 team week in week out in the awesome Fiserv Forum? Under Wojo, total buzzkill.
People see what they want to see.
Last night I saw the future, the bright future when Marquette basketball will again shine.
I was in Milwaukee during the Lombardi years and saw how fickle Wisconsin and Mikwaukee sports fans can be.
It's a long story, I understand it.
Some people can only back a winner because they are basically losers.
Winners have patience, tolerance, and demonstrate strategic behaviours.
I remember years of The Pack is Back, ha.
People around here love to talk about "the program", last night I saw the program unfolding. It is easy to see the negative, seeing the foundation is harder to discern.
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 24, 2020, 07:57:22 AM
in this the 7th year of Wojo, assistant coaches have turned over. Players have cycled through. The constant is the HC...and the results do not change. This, in turn, has created apathy. For example, in Milwaukee, MU is an afterthought in local tv and radio sports. Does anyone talk MU? Other than scoopers, nope. My biggest fear is the current MU admin is apathetic to the basketball program, it's history, what it means to the students, alumni et al. Lovell needs to go, but that's another topic. Would Father Wild put up with what's taking place with this program? No way! And that gets back to Wojo. Coaching at this level is huge! I don't have an answer on a replacement...hey Bo Ryan, any interest?, but what's taking place here can't continue. For the overall health of MU athletics, this can't continue. As SilentVerbal stated, 2classes of students are filtering through having experienced zero ncaa tourney wins...similar to the Majerus/Dukiet era, and completely unacceptable! btw, imagine how it would be having a top 15 team week in week out in the awesome Fiserv Forum? Under Wojo, total buzzkill.
If people want to learn from Villanova, here is a list of Jay Wright's assistant coaches over the years, where they were then, before, after. It's a 2017 article. So I will update it from 2017. Since this article:
Baker Dunleavy moved on to be the head coach at Quinnipiac. Ashley Howard moved on to be the head coach at Lasalle.
Kyle Neptune is still there. George Halcovage is still there. Mike Nardi is still there.
The one constant at Villanova is Jay Wright.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 24, 2020, 08:16:35 AM
People see what they want to see.
Last night I saw the future, the bright future when Marquette basketball will again shine.
I was in Milwaukee during the Lombardi years and saw how fickle Wisconsin and Mikwaukee sports fans can be.
It's a long story, I understand it.
Some people can only back a winner because they are basically losers.
Winners have patience, tolerance, and demonstrate strategic behaviours.
I remember years of The Pack is Back, ha.
People around here love to talk about "the program", last night I saw the program unfolding. It is easy to see the negative, seeing the foundation is harder to discern.
Man, I'll have what your having. I saw the beginning of Wojos second wave of recruits after the first wave ended with a thud. I saw the same problems we've seen for the previous 6 years.
I think you posted elsewhere that Wojo is just starting to build the MU program. I think Buzz left it in a pretty good spot. His last team wasn't very good, but we had a nice start to being a Top-20 program. A reputation as a tough team that fought like hell and produced some NBA talent.
In Wojo's 7 years, I don't know what our identity is. He's only building now because things have gone backwards quite a bit in the last 7 years.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 24, 2020, 12:42:08 AM
does this board feel like it has less trafic since back 7 or 8 years ago? idk
Nah, not really. Posts per year are around 90-115k per year. 2020 has 105k.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=stats
I had a really good response to this topic but I just don't care anymore. Arby's.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 24, 2020, 08:16:35 AM
People see what they want to see.
Last night I saw the future, the bright future when Marquette basketball will again shine.
I was in Milwaukee during the Lombardi years and saw how fickle Wisconsin and Mikwaukee sports fans can be.
It's a long story, I understand it.
Some people can only back a winner because they are basically losers.
Winners have patience, tolerance, and demonstrate strategic behaviours.
I remember years of The Pack is Back, ha.
People around here love to talk about "the program", last night I saw the program unfolding. It is easy to see the negative, seeing the foundation is harder to discern.
Oh please. By year 7 Lombardi has thee championships and was about to win two more. You think it takes seven years to build a foundation?
Quote from: dinger on December 24, 2020, 09:06:11 AM
I had a really good response to this topic but I just don't care anymore. Arby's.
That's the spirit!
Lots of short thoughts here:
I was much more apathetic than frustrated early in the 2nd half last night. Full-on apathy by late in the 2nd half.
Results now are very similar to the end of the Crean and Deane years. Thought last night right now MU has the recruiting of the Crean years but the results of the Deane years.
Text to a buddy who works 2nd shift after Creighton game was this 3 times - "I will not fall for Time and Score in mid-December". Been burned too much the last 3 years.
MU never seems to dictate what the game's style will be - it's always the opponent that determines what the game's style will be.
Quote from: Eye on December 24, 2020, 09:21:14 AM
Lots of short thoughts here:
I was much more apathetic than frustrated early in the 2nd half last night. Full-on apathy by late in the 2nd half.
Results now are very similar to the end of the Crean and Deane years. Thought last night right now MU has the recruiting of the Crean years but the results of the Deane years.
Text to a buddy who works 2nd shift after Creighton game was this 3 times - "I will not fall for Time and Score in mid-December". Been burned too much the last 3 years.
MU never seems to dictate what the game's style will be - it's always the opponent that determines what the game's style will be.
Correct, lack of team identity, a young team coming together, playing seasoned teams with proven systems.
Time to recruit to the system and not install a system to fit the players at hand.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 24, 2020, 09:30:35 AM
Correct, lack of team identity, a young team coming together, playing seasoned teams with proven systems.
Time to recruit to the system and not install a system to fit the players at hand.
So what exactly IS the system. That's part of the problem. Also why figure that out in year 8.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 24, 2020, 08:16:35 AM
People see what they want to see.
Last night I saw the future, the bright future when Marquette basketball will again shine.
Hard disagree. I have laid out pretty clearly what I want to see. I want to see a team regularly expected to be in the top-25, with the down years being 10 seeds to NIT and the good years being Big East & Final Four contenders. I haven't seen that yet.
I have tried to be pro-Wojo. I feel like I was one of his staunchest defenders for years. I saw the vision and how the recruiting supported it. I saw the blueprint. But now it's become clear to me recruiting doesn't matter much if the coach can't maximize that talent. The blueprint will never be realized if the schemes & understanding of the modern game aren't there.
I have no doubt Wojo wants to win. I have no doubt he's trying his best. But he's also left me with no doubt that it simply isn't enough. That's not what I want to see, it's what I do see. It's the reality that many like Goose saw sooner.
Brew
As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.
My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.
Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.
I have tried to be pro-Wojo. I feel like I was one of his staunchest defenders for years. I saw the vision and how the recruiting supported it. I saw the blueprint. But now it's become clear to me recruiting doesn't matter much if the coach can't maximize that talent. The blueprint will never be realized if the schemes & understanding of the modern game aren't there.
[/quote]
This for me. And it's clear the groundhog performances again this year so far have put many of us over the edge. The question is, what is acceptable to Lovell, the AD, and BOT?
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2020, 09:59:09 AM
Brew
As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.
My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.
Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.
Now you're talking. I can recognize a basketball player when I see one.
Don't think you need ten, but three or four are not enough.
Also, not an either/or, for top level you need both, real players and real coaches.
Which comes first?
Players or coaches?
You got me.
Last night, I watched Home Alone and Home Alone 2 with the kids. Maybe after the holidays I will watch them again. From what I saw earlier this year, Theo looks much improved on the offensive end, Carton Lewis and Garcia have great upside, and Koby shows flashes of a complete game. Aside from that, meh. Wojo now bores me more than anything.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 24, 2020, 10:14:33 AM
Last night, I watched Home Alone and Home Alone 2 with the kids. Maybe after the holidays I will watch them again. From what I saw earlier this year, Theo looks much improved on the offensive end, Carton Lewis and Garcia have great upside, and Koby shows flashes of a complete game. Aside from that, meh. Wojo now bores me more than anything.
I almost never watch movies, don't watch much T.V. either, to each his own.
Oh, I'm not easily bored, don't smoke, drink or chew gum.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 24, 2020, 10:19:57 AM
I almost never watch movies, don't watch much T.V. either, to each his own.
Oh, I'm not easily bored, don't smoke, drink or chew gum.
I'm not easily bored either, it took a lot to get me to this point ?-(
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 24, 2020, 10:21:11 AM
I'm not easily bored either, it took a lot to get me to this point ?-(
Yes, the culture has an undue influence.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 24, 2020, 10:21:11 AM
I'm not easily bored either, it took a lot to get me to this point ?-(
Have a great Christmas and enjoy your children, time flys by in the wink of an eye.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 24, 2020, 10:14:33 AM
Last night, I watched Home Alone and Home Alone 2 with the kids. Maybe after the holidays I will watch them again. From what I saw earlier this year, Theo looks much improved on the offensive end, Carton Lewis and Garcia have great upside, and Koby shows flashes of a complete game. Aside from that, meh. Wojo now bores me more than anything.
Why did it take 4 years to develop that hook shot that actually goes in. It seems Wojo is always missing that other piece: we have sharp shooters no athletic bigs, now we have athletic bigs but no sharp shooters.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 24, 2020, 05:42:00 AM
Bishop on Creighton looks like a much better player than Dawson. Why?
The junior averaging 13 and 6 on a team that plays at a much faster pace looks like a much better player than the freshman averaging 13 and 7? And in the head to head matchup the freshman went for 14 and 10 while the junior went for 7 and 4?
Maybe the answer is that you just want the other guy to look better so you can complain about Wojo, because he really doesn't look that much better and he's also had 2 extra years in college basketball.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 24, 2020, 09:37:13 AM
Hard disagree. I have laid out pretty clearly what I want to see. I want to see a team regularly expected to be in the top-25, with the down years being 10 seeds to NIT and the good years being Big East & Final Four contenders. I haven't seen that yet.
We're in a down year right now and are on track to land in your 10 seed to NIT range. I don't know what the up years of this cycle will look like but like goose I'm optimistic about the youngins.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 24, 2020, 10:56:56 AM
We're in a down year right now and are on track to land in your 10 seed to NIT range. I don't know what the up years of this cycle will look like but like goose I'm optimistic about the youngins.
"we are in a down year right now" Did I miss the good years?
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2020, 09:59:09 AM
Brew
As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.
My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.
Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.
Brother Goose:
BINGO!!!!! +10,000,000,000,000
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 24, 2020, 11:04:04 AM
"we are in a down year right now" Did I miss the good years?
93
97
32
53
33
31
51 (to date)
I think the ones where we made the top 25 before turning into supernova's heading down the stretch.
I have voiced my opinion on Theo over the years, but kudos to him for improving big time over last couple of years. Again, that falls into "feel good story" for me and am hoping we see improvement from the young guys. I am happy for Theo and wish him the best. It is time to get better players to take his spot moving forward.
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 24, 2020, 11:04:04 AM
"we are in a down year right now" Did I miss the good years?
You must have, we've been to postseason four seasons in a row, 3 of them the big dance. We've had some good years. No great ones. Just good
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 24, 2020, 11:17:12 AM
You must have, we've been to postseason four seasons in a row, 3 of them the big dance. We've had some good years. No great ones. Just good
Good is correct.
Thought I'd have some fun with an old roommate who's a Madison grad and texted him after the Bucky game. His response: "MU still won't win a tourney game." What could I say back? Even our rivals are apathetic towards us.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 24, 2020, 10:56:56 AM
We're in a down year right now and are on track to land in your 10 seed to NIT range. I don't know what the up years of this cycle will look like but like goose I'm optimistic about the youngins.
I am as well. The thing that concerns me though, is that we seem to be
less than the sum of our parts.
I have always stayed out of the Wojo arguments here, but that is a reflection of the coaching.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 24, 2020, 11:17:12 AM
You must have, we've been to postseason four seasons in a row, 3 of them the big dance. We've had some good years. No great ones. Just good
You're starting to sound like Chico. We have not made the postseason four years in a row. Nobody made the postseason last year. The three years before that were NCAA, NIT, and NCAA. We have not made the big dance three times under Wojo, stop making stuff up. The last two seasons ended in complete and utter collapse. I would not qualify those as "good" years, but there's no accounting for taste.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 24, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
You're starting to sound like Chico. We have not made the postseason four years in a row. Nobody made the postseason last year. The three years before that were NCAA, NIT, and NCAA. We have not made the big dance three times under Wojo, stop making stuff up. The last two seasons ended in complete and utter collapse. I would not qualify those as "good" years, but there's no accounting for taste.
Well damn. If that's the case, Wojo is tied for the longest streak of consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances in the country. Hell yeah Wojo!
TAMU
The last few years would look or sound good if we were SLU.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2020, 12:30:51 PM
TAMU
The last few years would look or sound good if we were SLU.
They would be building statues at SLU but I know your post is partially in jest
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 24, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
You're starting to sound like Chico. We have not made the postseason four years in a row. Nobody made the postseason last year. The three years before that were NCAA, NIT, and NCAA. We have not made the big dance three times under Wojo, stop making stuff up. The last two seasons ended in complete and utter collapse. I would not qualify those as "good" years, but there's no accounting for taste.
Fine, we have made the postseason three times and were considered a stone cold lock for the tournament in the year where no one made the tournament because it was canceled by a global pandemic.
See it's just easier to say made the postseason the last four years when everyone understands what is being said.
I find it hard to chalk up any failings this year to a "rebuilding year" when we start 3 seniors, including a 5th year and two guys who played 20 min a game last year, plus a McD AA and a top 30 recruit who was slated to be a B10 All Freshman level player before off the court issues. Plus a freshman who has turned out to be far better than expected early on and a redshirt junior rounding out your likely top 7. That's not some super young green crew.
For me, the hallmark of a team that is poorly coached is inconsistency. Not just from player performance, but clearly from other coaches/teams watching film of what was successful, preparing for it, and Marquette being unable to adjust. You don't go from a very good defensive team to last night by chance, but by another team understand how you defend and what you do well and being prepared to eviscerate you.
I was a bit down after UCLA but beyond fired up and hopeful after Creighton. Seton Hall was aggravating, Xavier disheartening, and sadly, last night was completely expected. I paid attention and watched, but I didn't go through any emotional swings. And unfortunately for me, that's become Wojo era Marquette ball. Inevitably, during every season, there is a point where you just expect and feel the wheels are gonna come off for 3-5 games.
Sure DG and DJ getting minutes and experience is great, but my fear is they leave before we have a team worthy of them. If this isn't gonna be a top 20 team, the appeal of being a pro and developing there will be stronger than riding it out on a middle BEast team
This has been going on for 8 years. Time to hold someone accountable or just move on. I feel bad for the players. If they were tired they should have physical training so they are in shape. Buzz had a boot camp at the beginning of the season. Being tired may be an excuse for the team but not for the coach.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 24, 2020, 05:42:00 AM
Bishop on Creighton looks like a much better player than Dawson. Why?
Here is the answer to your question: Christian Bishop is a Junior, Plays Center, and has an extremely well defined role which he executes with precision. His job is pick and roll ,and make dunks, while the rest of their team guns from the outside. He has good basketball IQ and tends to be in proper position on the floor and is a cog in the Creighton System. So he looks good in the eyeball test.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2020, 09:59:09 AM
As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.
My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.
Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.
A lot of good stuff in here, Goose, though I would point out that the part I bolded near the end is kind of an oxymoron. When apathy sets in, one doesn't care to watch the games closely. The Scooper who said he watched Home Alone instead of the game ... THAT'S apathy. But that's me picking a nit ... and I definitely do get what you're saying.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about Elliott, Cain and Theo. If you're saying they shouldn't start and receive tons of PT for a good program, I think I'm with you there. If you're saying there is no place for solid role players even for great programs, we'll disagree. Theo might or might not start for most Top 25 teams, but I think he'd have a role on just about all of them -- and a much bigger role than, say, Matt Heldt had on our 2018-19 team. Maybe you agree, or maybe we'll agree to disagree on that.
I don't think apathy has set in for me, the way I define apathy. I was looking forward to yesterday's game, I sat down to watch it expecting to be entertained, and I went in feeling there was a realistic chance that I'd be quite happy afterward -- just as I was quite happy after the Madison and Creighton games. That's how I've rolled for all of the Wojo Era except the last month or two of his first season, and it's where I still am now.
Although I am an optimist, I am also a realist. I am falling in with those who have gone from being a strong Wojo backer to now wondering if he can do the job at an acceptable level. I am realistic enough to know that it is
highly unlikely that Marquette will ever come close to the kind of sustained excellence we had during the Al Era, but I am optimistic enough to believe that Crean/Buzz-level success is attainable again -- and should be expected.
Despite our many errors last night, we were tied 28-28 late in the first half. But then our errors escalated in frequency and seriousness, and Nova took control.
At one point, maybe about 5-6 minutes into the second half, after we gave up yet ANOTHER wide-open 3 to Gillespie, I got up and left the room. I went downstairs, took out the trash, and fixed myself a snack. After a few minutes, I went back upstairs, sat down, and calmly watched the rest of the game.
In my view, my calmness wasn't indicative of apathy about the program, but I certainly knew that we had no chance to win last night at that point.
Nor was walking away when super frustrated all that unusual for me. I remember having done the same when watching the Davidson game in 2013 and the Holy Cross game in 2003. Better to stop overreacting to a basketball game, remember how lucky I've been to have a great life, and then resume watching with a calmer attitude. (Unfortunately, last night, the result was quite different than Holy Cross and Davidson, but that's neither here nor there!)
Anyway, long way of saying I still care about MU hoops and I really don't feel apathetic at all. Which is not the same as saying I'm satisfied being 5-5 at this point in Year 7. Like you, this first-year class gives me hope, and they certainly have entertained me (except for the second half last night). And like most MU fans, I want more.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2020, 09:59:09 AM
Brew
As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.
My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.
Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.
I like this take. I hope those three are a good foundation to build upon. I also hope two of the three don't transfer if we do not have success in the win/loss column to schools like MSU and Virginia that have more proven coaches. The new transfer rule scares the hell out of me especially with a head coach that is perceived as an average tactician. Parents of these kids will take advantage of this rule for the betterment of their child.
Let's finish the season strong and hope the new recruits are additions to the young talent we currently have and not replacements.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2020, 12:30:51 PM
TAMU
The last few years would look or sound good if we were SLU.
meanwhile, this year SLU is considered a darkhorse Final Four contender by national media pundits like Rothstein and Goodman. Us?
QuotePoor misguided folks. They missed the whole point. Lots of unhappiness? Maybe so. But doesn't Santa take a little bit of that unhappiness away? Doesn't a smile on Christmas morning scratch out a tear cried on a sadder day? Not much maybe. But what would happen if we all tried to be like Santa and learned to give as only he can give: of ourselves, our talents, our love and our hearts? Maybe we could all learn Santa's beautiful lesson and maybe there would finally be peace on Earth and good will toward men.
I hope Dawson, Carton and Lewis come back. Kids seems to jump at anything close to a 2nd round grade. Markus is the rare exception.
I said before that the sked opens up now.
Per KenPom:
Sat Jan 2 109 Georgetown W, 77-72 71 65% Away ×
Tue Jan 5 44 Connecticut W, 71-69 67 56% Home ×
Fri Jan 8 3 Villanova L, 75-65 65 19% Away ×
Tue Jan 12 63 Providence W, 73-69 67 65% Home ×
Sat Jan 16 93 St. John's W, 79-76 73 61% Away ×
Wed Jan 20 109 Georgetown W, 79-70 71 79% Home ×
Sat Jan 23 86 DePaul W, 78-71 71 73% Home ×
Wed Jan 27 63 Providence L, 72-71 67 49% Away ×
Tue Feb 2 70 Butler W, 74-69 68 68% Home ×
If we get to Feb 2 and we're 8-5 in conf or even 7-6 we'll know that we're a solid squad. Being even just 7-6 with 3 of our 4 toughest games behind us would be huge.
Let's make some hay!
Dawson, Garcia, Lewis - second rounders after this season, can I sell you a bridge?
Very apathetic about this program. Wojo is taking it nowhere but mediocrity. And a frustrating mediocrity - win a couple exciting games, crap the bed against average teams.
Love it Lens! Lets do it! Merry Christmas everyone!
Quote from: The Lens on December 24, 2020, 02:26:07 PM
I hope Dawson, Carton and Lewis come back. Kids seems to jump at anything close to a 2nd round grade. Markus is the rare exception.
I said before that the sked opens up now.
Per KenPom:
Sat Jan 2 109 Georgetown W, 77-72 71 65% Away ×
Tue Jan 5 44 Connecticut W, 71-69 67 56% Home ×
Fri Jan 8 3 Villanova L, 75-65 65 19% Away ×
Tue Jan 12 63 Providence W, 73-69 67 65% Home ×
Sat Jan 16 93 St. John's W, 79-76 73 61% Away ×
Wed Jan 20 109 Georgetown W, 79-70 71 79% Home ×
Sat Jan 23 86 DePaul W, 78-71 71 73% Home ×
Wed Jan 27 63 Providence L, 72-71 67 49% Away ×
Tue Feb 2 70 Butler W, 74-69 68 68% Home ×
If we get to Feb 2 and we're 8-5 in conf or even 7-6 we'll know that we're a solid squad. Being even just 7-6 with 3 of our 4 toughest games behind us would be huge.
Let's make some hay!
The record you're talking about is realistic, and I obviously hope it happens (or that our record is even better). If we're something like 5-8 after that stretch, it would be very bad.
Love the optimism.
We Are Marquette!
Very rarely do I turn off MU games but I started watching NBA with about 8-10 minutes left in the second half and switched back occasionally to see Nova's lead balloon. Not any less of a fan, but not any more optimistic about coming back from a deficit like that.
I will say I feel this team is more talented than their record shows. The badgers look very good and MU had a nice win. Same with CU. A couple other games were very close. It's unfortunate they couldn't seal the deal in the end vs. Seton Hall but that was an uphill battle. However talent won't translate to wins if they're not experienced enough and coached well enough.
The realist in me is not surprised. After Markus' graduation, it's clear guys would need to take a big leap. And when the newcomers are the biggest impact players, it goes to show you that they will be fine with more experience (assuming they all stick around longer) but maybe not much better overall this season.
Cain is basically the same player just getting more touches. Elliott, same player. Torrence is a non-factor and non Big East caliber guard. Theo is the most improved out of all the returning players. Koby is also the same player but a little more efficient.
Unfortunately for Wojo, his leash is shortening. This team has another couple of upsets in them but surely more losses. To your point tower, MU could use another switchable wing player. Sadly, Bailey left an open spot for someone to fill.
I wouldn't say I am apathetic about this team or the season, but based on the circumstances, the games aren't as exciting. Imagine how exciting that win over UW would have been if fans were present?
Quote from: Markusquette on December 24, 2020, 05:36:12 PM
Very rarely do I turn off MU games but I started watching NBA with about 8-10 minutes left in the second half and switched back occasionally to see Nova's lead balloon. Not any less of a fan, but not any more optimistic about coming back from a deficit like that.
I will say I feel this team is more talented than their record shows. The badgers look very good and MU had a nice win. Same with CU. A couple other games were very close. It's unfortunate they couldn't seal the deal in the end vs. Seton Hall but that was an uphill battle. However talent won't translate to wins if they're not experienced enough and coached well enough.
The realist in me is not surprised. After Markus' graduation, it's clear guys would need to take a big leap. And when the newcomers are the biggest impact players, it goes to show you that they will be fine with more experience (assuming they all stick around longer) but maybe not much better overall this season.
Cain is basically the same player just getting more touches. Elliott, same player. Torrence is a non-factor and non Big East caliber guard. Theo is the most improved out of all the returning players. Koby is also the same player but a little more efficient.
Unfortunately for Wojo, his leash is shortening. This team has another couple of upsets in them but surely more losses. To your point tower, MU could use another switchable wing player. Sadly, Bailey left an open spot for someone to fill.
I wouldn't say I am apathetic about this team or the season, but based on the circumstances, the games aren't as exciting. Imagine how exciting that win over UW would have been if fans were present?
i agree with your summary. And, the swing/miss on Torrance, and Cain basically the same guy, only with more minutes, hurts. I'm typically optimistic that guys will improve, but I'm not with Torrance.
Oh well, hoping for 11-12 BE wins, feeling pessimistic that 10-10 might be the ceiling on this team.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 24, 2020, 12:33:49 PM
They would be building statues at SLU but I know your post is partially in jest
Respectfully, are these the comparisons MU wants to make? SLU went 25 years with a school President and board that largely wasn't interested in Athletics, resources, infrastructure, budgets, playing in a different league. MU has had signficantly more commitment to that over that time. SLU still has some challenges today with the same things, although it's improved quite a bit.
In the past decade, MU has won an NCAA game in 3 different NCAA's. SLU? Also 3. If anything MU is perhaps fortunate Rick Majerus' health declined or perhaps that would swing a little more the other way as opposed to being similar. Or moving forward that Travis Ford is getting it going a little bit now. Certainly the NCAA runs are different but that is a sobering stat for some.
If we are going by NCAA success, MU has a 2003 Final Four. And it has a 3 year 2nd weekend stretch with Buzz. Prior to that we are going back to the year after Al McGuire. All of these are good things, but let's not get carried away here. MU can do better, and can be better too.
Perhaps MU can discuss how it can be more successful. MU certainly only needs to look to its conference peers for that right now. Villanova, etc...
Quote from: Markusquette on December 24, 2020, 05:36:12 PM
Very rarely do I turn off MU games but I started watching NBA with about 8-10 minutes left in the second half and switched back occasionally to see Nova's lead balloon. Not any less of a fan, but not any more optimistic about coming back from a deficit like that.
I will say I feel this team is more talented than their record shows. The badgers look very good and MU had a nice win. Same with CU. A couple other games were very close. It's unfortunate they couldn't seal the deal in the end vs. Seton Hall but that was an uphill battle. However talent won't translate to wins if they're not experienced enough and coached well enough.
The realist in me is not surprised. After Markus' graduation, it's clear guys would need to take a big leap. And when the newcomers are the biggest impact players, it goes to show you that they will be fine with more experience (assuming they all stick around longer) but maybe not much better overall this season.
Cain is basically the same player just getting more touches. Elliott, same player. Torrence is a non-factor and non Big East caliber guard. Theo is the most improved out of all the returning players. Koby is also the same player but a little more efficient.
Unfortunately for Wojo, his leash is shortening. This team has another couple of upsets in them but surely more losses. To your point tower, MU could use another switchable wing player. Sadly, Bailey left an open spot for someone to fill.
I wouldn't say I am apathetic about this team or the season, but based on the circumstances, the games aren't as exciting. Imagine how exciting that win over UW would have been if fans were present?
Cain is not the same player....still not as much as we'd like to see—but not the same. Same with Koby. Not the same player.
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 25, 2020, 08:40:32 AM
i agree with your summary. And, the swing/miss on Torrance, and Cain basically the same guy, only with more minutes, hurts. I'm typically optimistic that guys will improve, but I'm not with Torrance.
Oh well, hoping for 11-12 BE wins, feeling pessimistic that 10-10 might be the ceiling on this team.
10-10 as MUs ceiling is about right for wojo. Face it sports fans. That is about what it will always be with him, and it is about what many posters here are acceptable with.
Some people see 7 years as a very long time, some see 7 years as a drop in the bucket.
Some confuse fear with anger, or patience with apathy.
We seem to forget or discount the facts or cherry pick our reality.
My recollection is that the cupboard was left totally bare.
The Board of Trustees raised the eligibility requirements for admission and participating.
We had to field a competitive team right away which meant graduate transfers, regular transfers or one and done from the Wisconsin pool of unrealistic expectations.
I think it has been a small miracle that we have not been totall embarrassed and huliliated over the past 7 years.
Yesterday I watched Wisconsin play Michigan State and thought what could never have been. Someone should write an honest book on the transfer drama of that Marquette basketball delemma/fiasco. It would be better than Hoop Dreams.
Can't put the Hauser fiasco blame on anyone else's doorstep but Woj's. He recruited them and he created the team chemistry in which both Hausers opted to transfer out of the program, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 26, 2020, 07:02:30 AM
Can't put the Hauser fiasco blame on anyone else's doorstep but Woj's. He recruited them and he created the team chemistry in which both Hausers opted to transfer out of the program, hey?
Yes and no.
Factor in the unfolding of events, the fog of war.
Who knew how impatient some people would be?
Who knew how record setting good Howard would be?
Who knew that Howard would grow and change into the man he has become?
Who can foresee the development of adolescents?
Ellenson, Hauser were the low hanging fruit that filled and need and created a longer term problem.
We can make all kinds of cases to prove our points.
Looking at the team on the court at this point, all cases notwithstanding, I'm all in with WOJO.
Did he make some forced errors, yes.
If today I had to look for blame, I'd put it on the BOT.
Long term they are probably right, short term, 7 years, it has been painful.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 26, 2020, 06:56:03 AM
Some people see 7 years as a very long time, some see 7 years as a drop in the bucket.
Some confuse fear with anger, or patience with apathy.
We seem to forget or discount the facts or cherry pick our reality.
My recollection is that the cupboard was left totally bare.
Vogue
The roster that Wojo inherited was not the 1976 Indiana Hoosiers and nobody has said otherwise. But it included: a senior returning starter at point guard, a junior top 100 switchable who is still playing in the NBA, a junior top 100 power forward, a sophomore class that was far and away Buzz William's highest rated class ever (top 30 switchable, top 60 switchable, top 60 PG and top 100 transfer C) and a top 100 switchable freshman. All told, there were seven (7) rsci top 100 players on the roster that Wojo took over.
Anyone who calls that a completely empty cupboard is either forgetting, discounting the facts or cherry picking reality.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 26, 2020, 07:19:37 AM
Yes and no.
Factor in the unfolding of events, the fog of war.
Who knew how impatient some people would be?
Who knew how record setting good Howard would be?
Who knew that Howard would grow and change into the man he has become?
Who can foresee the development of adolescents?
Ellenson, Hauser were the low hanging fruit that filled and need and created a longer term problem.
We can make all kinds of cases to prove our points.
Looking at the team on the court at this point, all cases notwithstanding, I'm all in with WOJO.
Did he make some forced errors, yes.
If today I had to look for blame, I'd put it on the BOT.
Long term they are probably right, short term, 7 years, it has been painful.
Sam Hauser was not "low hanging fruit that filled a need". He was a three year starter before transferring, was universally beloved by the fan base, and remains the most solid all-around player Wojo has recruited. If you were referring to Joey, every single Marquette fan was elated when he chose MU over the likes of Kansas and Michigan State. To call him "low hanging fruit that filled a need" is absolutely revisionist history.
I wonder how many years it will be before every other Hangin' at the Al thread doesn't devolve into debates about the Hausers.
Maybe when Joey's 20-year NBA career ends.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 25, 2020, 10:08:12 PM
Cain is not the same player....still not as much as we'd like to see—but not the same. Same with Koby. Not the same player.
I get what you mean. On paper you're absolutely right. I just don't think they added much of anything that really propels MU to more than we expected. We saw Koby get hot and take over multiple games last year and completely disappear or force the issue in others. He's playing more efficiently and smarter which I love. Someone has to fill in for the scoring once Markus and Sacar left. Just look at the game logs and you'll see the same though. Koby shows up in some games barely scores in others.
Jamal is getting more consistent playing time (10 more mpg) so he isn't as worried about making an impact before getting pulled. Nice to see him stepping up a as a senior. He's shooting and rebounding well.
This year is really dependent on the progression of our young talent to complement the role-playing seniors. I'd argue Koby is playing the best overall right now, but he's not the X-factor. That would be someone like Carton or Garcia.
Quote from: MU82 on December 26, 2020, 10:39:04 AM
I wonder how many years it will be before every other Hangin' at the Al thread doesn't devolve into debates about the Hausers.
Maybe when Joey's 20-year NBA career ends.
I really am happy that Sam gets a chance in the NCAA tournament, if he stayed at MU, he would be gone and no tournament last year. For Joey, it was nice to see
him have a great game yesterday, played well. I believe both recruits that MU got this year might be better than Joey, time will tell on that. Garcia has to learn how
to play against other big kids and get stronger. Lewis just needs more playing time, good rebounder, decent shot, not great, and both need to work on there free throws. In time they will be very good. Just trying to figure out who will play the wing when Cain leaves. Transfer here we come.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 26, 2020, 11:23:19 AM
I really am happy that Sam gets a chance in the NCAA tournament, if he stayed at MU, he would be gone and no tournament last year. For Joey, it was nice to see
him have a great game yesterday, played well. I believe both recruits that MU got this year might be better than Joey, time will tell on that. Garcia has to learn how
to play against other big kids and get stronger. Lewis just needs more playing time, good rebounder, decent shot, not great, and both need to work on there free throws. In time they will be very good. Just trying to figure out who will play the wing when Cain leaves. Transfer here we come.
Sam has already had a chance in the tourney...?
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 26, 2020, 11:23:19 AM
I really am happy that Sam gets a chance in the NCAA tournament, if he stayed at MU, he would be gone and no tournament last year. For Joey, it was nice to see
him have a great game yesterday, played well. I believe both recruits that MU got this year might be better than Joey, time will tell on that. Garcia has to learn how
to play against other big kids and get stronger. Lewis just needs more playing time, good rebounder, decent shot, not great, and both need to work on there free throws. In time they will be very good. Just trying to figure out who will play the wing when Cain leaves. Transfer here we come.
I'm not sure I see either being better than Joey, and I don't really wish to see Joey playing well either. From the year he played at MU and whatever went on behind the scenes, he seems like a big baby.
Some folks here seem to have more apathy toward their alma mater's team than they do toward two players who helped mess up a promising 2018-19 season for their alma mater.
Quote from: MU82 on December 26, 2020, 03:58:02 PM
Some folks here seem to have more apathy toward their alma mater's team than they do toward two players who helped mess up a promising 2018-19 season for their alma mater.
It was just one player...and a coach.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 26, 2020, 06:56:03 AM
Some people see 7 years as a very long time, some see 7 years as a drop in the bucket.
Some confuse fear with anger, or patience with apathy.
We seem to forget or discount the facts or cherry pick our reality.
My recollection is that the cupboard was left totally bare.
The Board of Trustees raised the eligibility requirements for admission and participating.
We had to field a competitive team right away which meant graduate transfers, regular transfers or one and done from the Wisconsin pool of unrealistic expectations.
I think it has been a small miracle that we have not been totall embarrassed and huliliated over the past 7 years.
Yesterday I watched Wisconsin play Michigan State and thought what could never have been. Someone should write an honest book on the transfer drama of that Marquette basketball delemma/fiasco. It would be better than Hoop Dreams.
i don't necessarily disagree. However, even with a bare cupboard, it doesn't take this long to achieve what...a single ncaa tourney win? Considering MU has solid facilities, has a bigly recruiting budget and pays the coach quite well, MU just has to be better. For ex., how the heck does a program such as Creighton rise above MU? Creighton? Omaha? Missouri Valley...or from wherever, Creighton? Point is, Wojo is what he is. Program is what it will be under him. Not sure of a replacement (maybe Stan Johnson rocks it at LMU...currently 5-3...and is a possibility in another year or two), but Wojo has run his course here. Gotta strive for better than this cold gravy that's become MU basketball.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 26, 2020, 05:18:40 PM
It was just one player...and a coach.
it was the coach. Player did what coach allowed. Those two other players? Back page news.
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 26, 2020, 06:40:54 PM
i don't necessarily disagree. However, even with a bare cupboard, it doesn't take this long to achieve what...a single ncaa tourney win? Considering MU has solid facilities, has a bigly recruiting budget and pays the coach quite well, MU just has to be better. For ex., how the heck does a program such as Creighton rise above MU? Creighton? Omaha? Missouri Valley...or from wherever, Creighton? Point is, Wojo is what he is. Program is what it will be under him. Not sure of a replacement (maybe Stan Johnson rocks it at LMU...currently 5-3...and is a possibility in another year or two), but Wojo has run his course here. Gotta strive for better than this cold gravy that's become MU basketball.
Oh God. Please not this again
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 26, 2020, 06:52:11 PM
Oh God. Please not this again
Agreed. If Wojo can't get it done, why put our faith in any of the guys that helped him not get it done? If Stan (or Dwayne, or Justin, or Jake) couldn't improve things as an assistant, why promote them?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 26, 2020, 07:13:23 PM
Agreed. If Wojo can't get it done, why put our faith in any of the guys that helped him not get it done? If Stan (or Dwayne, or Justin, or Jake) couldn't improve things as an assistant, why promote them?
Yep great idea. Everyone complains about a guy with zero head coaching experience being clueless, so let's hire one of his assistants with zero/next to zero head coaching experience and expect different results!
Brian Wardle or bust. If bust TJ Otzelberger.
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 26, 2020, 06:40:54 PM
i don't necessarily disagree. However, even with a bare cupboard, it doesn't take this long to achieve what...a single ncaa tourney win? Considering MU has solid facilities, has a bigly recruiting budget and pays the coach quite well, MU just has to be better. For ex., how the heck does a program such as Creighton rise above MU? Creighton? Omaha? Missouri Valley...or from wherever, Creighton? Point is, Wojo is what he is. Program is what it will be under him. Not sure of a replacement (maybe Stan Johnson rocks it at LMU...currently 5-3...and is a possibility in another year or two), but Wojo has run his course here. Gotta strive for better than this cold gravy that's become MU basketball.
My premise, we don't yet have a program.
Big $$$, fancy arena, great facilities, super town, great education ( if you're interested ), t.v. exposure, yada, yada, yada.
WOJO had two false starts( one and done, who knew?).
He should have known, please.
Then we have the sidetrack of a shooting phenomenon. What do you do, give into mutiny or worse, extortion?
You go to war with the army you have, ha.
Quote from: Marq3332 on December 26, 2020, 06:43:28 PM
it was the coach. Player did what coach allowed. Those two other players? Back page news.
It had nothing to do with it, it was a side show.
The univetsity wanted a new image. It was marketing, not basketball.
There were plenty of Buzz 2 guys out there.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 27, 2020, 11:08:53 AM
My premise, we don't yet have a program.
Big $$$, fancy arena, great facilities, super town, great education ( if you're interested ), t.v. exposure, yada, yada, yada.
WOJO had two false starts( one and done, who knew?).
He should have known, please.
Then we have the sidetrack of a shooting phenomenon. What do you do, give into mutiny or worse, extortion?
You go to war with the army you have, ha.
So in year 7, we don't yet have a program under our current coach. I can't think of a bigger indictment on the guy running the team than the one you just gave.
Let's examine all of his false starts. In his first year, a year that was going to suck no matter what, he brought in Matt Carlino to take about half our shots. He essentially ran off Deonte Burton, a really good basketball player who would go on to play in the NBA. Yes, Burton said he transferred because of his mother's death, but would he have left if he was getting the starter's minutes he should have had? Remember, he was *very* close with Duane and JJJ. So that's false start #1. Bringing in a chucker and alienating the best player on the team.
In year two, he made a deal with the Ellenson family. Henry would go to MU, but only if they gave Wally three years of scholarship. Henry did whatever he wanted for a year, the team sucked, Henry went pro, and Wojo cut Wally. The optics of that weren't great. In fact, I believe they had to give Wally a full track scholarship (something Marquette never does, if I'm not mistaken) just to shut Mrs. Ellenson up. So a couple of hard working kids on the track team got their scholarships pulled because Wojo screwed up. And then I think Wally dropped out of school anyways. That was false start #2, a complete mess.
So going into year three, instead of having built something in his first two years, Wojo was essentially starting from scratch. The team made the tournament in year 3, but got blown out in the first round. Wojo then stepped on his Johnson in year 4 and we missed the tournament. Year 5, which was Wojo's best team, ended in complete collapse when he lost the locker room, and then the Hausers transferred, which is one of the worst and most embarrassing things to ever happen to the Marquette program. And then we collapsed again in year 6.
So let's recap it year by year:
Year 1: Brings in a chucker for no reason and loses the best player on the team to transfer.
Year 2: Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3: Made the tournament, but lost in the first round. Not bad.
Year 4: Steps on his Johnson and we miss the tournament.
Year 5: Complete collapse to end the season, Hausers transfer.
Year 6: Complete collapse to end the season.
All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.
Nailed it. Just absolutely nailed it.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 12:11:21 PM
So in year 7, we don't yet have a program under our current coach. I can't think of a bigger indictment on the guy running the team than the one you just gave.
Let's examine all of his false starts. In his first year, a year that was going to suck no matter what, he brought in Matt Carlino to take about half our shots. He essentially ran off Deonte Burton, a really good basketball player who would go on to play in the NBA. Yes, Burton said he transferred because of his mother's death, but would he have left if he was getting the starter's minutes he should have had? Remember, he was *very* close with Duane and JJJ. So that's false start #1. Bringing in a chucker and alienating the best player on the team.
In year two, he made a deal with the Ellenson family. Henry would go to MU, but only if they gave Wally three years of scholarship. Henry did whatever he wanted for a year, the team sucked, Henry went pro, and Wojo cut Wally. The optics of that weren't great. In fact, I believe they had to give Wally a full track scholarship (something Marquette never does, if I'm not mistaken) just to shut Mrs. Ellenson up. So a couple of hard working kids on the track team got their scholarships pulled because Wojo screwed up. And then I think Wally dropped out of school anyways. That was false start #2, a complete mess.
So going into year three, instead of having built something in his first two years, Wojo was essentially starting from scratch. The team made the tournament in year 3, but got blown out in the first round. Wojo then stepped on his Johnson in year 4 and we missed the tournament. Year 5, which was Wojo's best team, ended in complete collapse when he lost the locker room, and then the Hausers transferred, which is one of the worst and most embarrassing things to ever happen to the Marquette program. And then we collapsed again in year 6.
So let's recap it year by year:
Year 1: Brings in a chucker for no reason and loses the best player on the team to transfer.
Year 2: Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3: Made the tournament, but lost in the first round. Not bad.
Year 4: Steps on his Johnson and we miss the tournament.
Year 5: Complete collapse to end the season, Hausers transfer.
Year 6: Complete collapse to end the season.
All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 12:11:21 PM
Year 1: Brings in a chucker for no reason a guy with 24% usage who shot a very respectful 53.3% eFG%, in no way, shape, or form a chucker and loses the best player on the team to transfer after the death of his mother and a battle with depression, his repeatedly stated reasons for transfer.
Year 2: Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3: Made the tournament, but lost in the first round. Not bad.
Year 4: Steps on his Johnson and After graduating the core of his team that was inherited from Buzz, we barely miss the tournament an improvement from the last down year.
Year 5: Despite a Complete collapse to end the season, earns a 5 seed in the NCAA, tied for the second highest seed MU has earned in the past 40 years. Hausers transfer.
Year 6: Complete collapse to end the season, his first legitimately bad season.
All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.
FIFY
That still would have, by any metric, would have made the tourney if there had been one.
Whether you're a "projo" or a "nojo" it's easy to spin the story in your favor. Wojo's made a lot of mistakes. He's also had some good and great teams that fell short. He also didn't get a chance for his first tournament win last year. I'm not really a fan of him as a coach, but to throw him under the bus for every decision that didn't go in MUBB's favor is extreme.
Buzz made some bigger mistakes that really displayed the program in a negative way, but did his success make it acceptable?
You make an interesting point. Buzz had a lot of 'team bubble watch' clubs. Looking back at the talent that had Butler, Crowder, Buycks, Jamil Wilson, DJO, Lazar, an ardent Buzz hater, lets call him 'Willie' for the sake of argument, could make a case that Buzz's teams underachieved their talent during the regular seasons and Big East tourneys, but were able to redeem themselves by winning games in the Big Dance. While having players making negative headlines and while getting hit with (minor) NCAA violations.
Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 04:37:47 PM
You make an interesting point. Buzz had a lot of 'team bubble watch' clubs. Looking back at the talent that had Butler, Crowder, Buycks, Jamil Wilson, DJO, Lazar, an ardent Buzz hater, lets call him 'Willie' for the sake of argument, could make a case that Buzz's teams underachieved their talent during the regular seasons and Big East tourneys, but were able to redeem themselves by winning games in the Big Dance. While having players making negative headlines and while getting hit with (minor) NCAA violations.
So in Buzz's down years, he won games in the tournament and then he redeemed himself with other seasons which he had a ton of success in the regular season (as well as post season).
There is going to be down seasons at any program. It's what you do to redeem yourself after the down seasons which really define you.
My point is that every coach MU has had since the internet has become ubiquitous has had message board denizens calling for his head.
Just like all coaches everywhere. It was posted that Wojo is an average coach. Scoopers are average fans.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 12:11:21 PM
So in year 7, we don't yet have a program under our current coach. I can't think of a bigger indictment on the guy running the team than the one you just gave.
Let's examine all of his false starts. In his first year, a year that was going to suck no matter what, he brought in Matt Carlino to take about half our shots. He essentially ran off Deonte Burton, a really good basketball player who would go on to play in the NBA. Yes, Burton said he transferred because of his mother's death, but would he have left if he was getting the starter's minutes he should have had? Remember, he was *very* close with Duane and JJJ. So that's false start #1. Bringing in a chucker and alienating the best player on the team.
In year two, he made a deal with the Ellenson family. Henry would go to MU, but only if they gave Wally three years of scholarship. Henry did whatever he wanted for a year, the team sucked, Henry went pro, and Wojo cut Wally. The optics of that weren't great. In fact, I believe they had to give Wally a full track scholarship (something Marquette never does, if I'm not mistaken) just to shut Mrs. Ellenson up. So a couple of hard working kids on the track team got their scholarships pulled because Wojo screwed up. And then I think Wally dropped out of school anyways. That was false start #2, a complete mess.
So going into year three, instead of having built something in his first two years, Wojo was essentially starting from scratch. The team made the tournament in year 3, but got blown out in the first round. Wojo then stepped on his Johnson in year 4 and we missed the tournament. Year 5, which was Wojo's best team, ended in complete collapse when he lost the locker room, and then the Hausers transferred, which is one of the worst and most embarrassing things to ever happen to the Marquette program. And then we collapsed again in year 6.
So let's recap it year by year:
Year 1: Brings in a chucker for no reason and loses the best player on the team to transfer.
Year 2: Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3: Made the tournament, but lost in the first round. Not bad.
Year 4: Steps on his Johnson and we miss the tournament.
Year 5: Complete collapse to end the season, Hausers transfer.
Year 6: Complete collapse to end the season.
All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.
+1000👍
If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?
I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.
Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 27, 2020, 08:09:01 PM
If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?
I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.
Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).
This may qualify for worst take on Scoop.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 27, 2020, 08:09:01 PM
If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?
Is this for real? Of course it would.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 27, 2020, 08:09:01 PM
If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?
I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.
Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 09:07:22 PM
Is this for real? Of course it would.
For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.
Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 27, 2020, 10:50:37 PM
For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.
Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.
This. Exactly.
Or, in this hypothetical, maybe it wasn't even Wojo. One of our guys dropped 40. Or the opposition lost their starting PG. Etc etc. 2 fluky sweet 16s doesn't change Wojo as a coach or what this program looks like under his stewardship.
I don't envision posts this season being much different with 2 sweet 16s in earlier years if all else is the exact same.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 27, 2020, 12:41:57 PM
FIFY
Come on.. i mean im on the fence with wojo, but the apologetics are pretty tiresome at this point. idk if ur a big wojo guy but its been pretty mediocre under wojo. If this season is a train wreck, its time for this guy to go. just feels like defending wojo too much. There isn't a lot to defend unless u set the bar pretty low.
TAMU and jesmu convincing themselves that hypothetical tournament success doesn't actually count as success so where we are now is no different than where we'd be with tournament runs from Wojo.
Truly mind-blowing mental gymnastics.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 27, 2020, 10:50:37 PM
For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.
Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.
If Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights don't do much for you, I can understand why defending Wojo is the hill you've chosen to slurp on. The Tournament is where college coaches make their bones. Crean's *still* living off that Final Four from almost twenty years ago. Buzz will be a head coach at a high major for the rest of his career, however long he wants, because of the run he made at Marquette. And he never even made the Final Four. You might turn your nose up at an Elite Eight, but most Athletic Directors obviously don't feel the same way.
Sports, for a huge percentage of fans, are all about the postseason. Do you really think Packers fans will be happy if they finish 13-3 and lose their first playoff game? Hell no. All that regular season success will be for nothing. Stinks for the team, but that's just the way it is. I guarantee you that all the Nojo-ers would shut up real quick if Wojo made the Sweet Sixteen this year. The thing is, he's a bad coach, so him winning two consecutive games against two good teams seems pretty unlikely. If the talent of the opposing team doesn't beat us, their coach will.
And not all Sweet Sixteen runs are the result of a team "just getting hot" for a couple games. Sometimes teams win because talent, grit, and coaching come together at the right time.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 11:31:21 PM
If Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights don't do much for you, I can understand why defending Wojo is the hill you've chosen to slurp on. The Tournament is where college coaches make their bones. Crean's *still* living off that Final Four from almost twenty years ago. Buzz will be a head coach at a high major for the rest of his career, however long he wants, because of the run he made at Marquette. And he never even made the Final Four. You might turn your nose up at an Elite Eight, but most Athletic Directors obviously don't feel the same way.
Sports, for a huge percentage of fans, are all about the postseason. Do you really think Packers fans will be happy if they finish 13-3 and lose their first playoff game? Hell no. All that regular season success will be for nothing. Stinks for the team, but that's just the way it is. I guarantee you that all the Nojo-ers would shut up real quick if Wojo made the Sweet Sixteen this year. The thing is, he's a bad coach, so him winning two consecutive games against two good teams seems pretty unlikely. If the talent of the opposing team doesn't beat us, their coach will.
And not all Sweet Sixteen runs are the result of a team "just getting hot" for a couple games. Sometimes teams win because talent, grit, and coaching come together at the right time.
The commentary has become asinine trying to prop up this loser we're stuck with for now.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 27, 2020, 10:50:37 PM
For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.
Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.
Disagree completely. The only regular season win that could equal a win in the NCAA tournament is one that clinches a conference championship. Wins, in order of importance for me are as follows:
1.National Championship
2.National Semi Final
3.Elite 8 NCAA
4.Big East Tournament Championship
5.Sweet 16 NCAA
6.Round of 32 NCAA
7.First Round NCAA
8.Big East Tournament Semi Final
9.Big East Conference Games
10.Big East Quarters/First Round
11.Wisconsin
12.Pre Conference Tournaments
13.Pre Conference regular season games.
If you have a game to clinch a regular season Big East title I'd put that in between 3 and 4.
You say nobody remembers Elite8s and Sweet 16s. What nobody remembers (short of a conference title) is the regular season. It's an audition for the tournament, and the better the audition the better your seed - but it's what you do with it that matters. Question: When (as an 11 seed) we beat 6 seed Xavier (and later 3 seed Syracuse), who had the better year, got the most respect - Us or Xavier? I say us and it's not close. They don't call it the Big Dance for nothing.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 27, 2020, 11:37:07 PM
The commentary has become asinine trying to prop up this loser we're stuck with for now.
We've gotten to the point that Projos need to denigrate NCAAT wins to maintain their position. It's a sinking ship and they're happy to be playing in the orchestra.
Only one person in MU history could spit in the face of the NCAAT and get away with it... and Wojo ain't him.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 11:11:50 PM
TAMU and jesmu convincing themselves that hypothetical tournament success doesn't actually count as success so where we are now is no different than where we'd be with tournament runs from Wojo.
Truly mind-blowing mental gymnastics.
I don't think you understand the point of the post. This isn't a pro or anti-Wojo post. It's a commentary on what different people look at when evaluating a coach. It's clear that some here think that winning in the tournament proves that a coach is better and losing in the tournament proves that a coach is worse. Personally, I think it's a mistake to put so much focus on one or two games simply because they are postseason games. I think a better measure of the quality of coach is how the perform over the course of a season. For example, Tony Bennett had an amazing 17-18 season despite getting blasted by a 16 seed in the NCAAT. He proved it for good measure by winning the whole damn thing the following season.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 12:48:06 AM
I don't think you understand the point of the post. This isn't a pro or anti-Wojo post. It's a commentary on what different people look at when evaluating a coach. It's clear that some here think that winning in the tournament proves that a coach is better and losing in the tournament proves that a coach is worse. Personally, I think it's a mistake to put so much focus on one or two games simply because they are postseason games. I think a better measure of the quality of coach is how the perform over the course of a season. For example, Tony Bennett had an amazing 17-18 season despite getting blasted by a 16 seed in the NCAAT. He proved it for good measure by winning the whole damn thing the following season.
I don't think you're understanding that it's embarrassing to make the argument that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program. Great use of the 1 in 1000 Virginia scenario to really drive your point home - NOW I understand, thanks.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 11:31:21 PM
If Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights don't do much for you, I can understand why defending Wojo is the hill you've chosen to slurp on. The Tournament is where college coaches make their bones. Crean's *still* living off that Final Four from almost twenty years ago. Buzz will be a head coach at a high major for the rest of his career, however long he wants, because of the run he made at Marquette. And he never even made the Final Four. You might turn your nose up at an Elite Eight, but most Athletic Directors obviously don't feel the same way.
And yet, national champion Kevin Ollie is jobless. And Mick Cronin just got hired for a blue blood job despite making the second weekend of the NCAAT once in 13 seasons at Cincy. Bad coaches win in the NCAAT all the time. Good coaches lose in the NCAAT all the time. I think most ADs value winning consistently because if you win consistently, you will earn high seeds which gives the best shot at making deep postseason runs.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 11:31:21 PM
Sports, for a huge percentage of fans, are all about the postseason. Do you really think Packers fans will be happy if they finish 13-3 and lose their first playoff game? Hell no. All that regular season success will be for nothing. Stinks for the team, but that's just the way it is.
I'm all about the postseason as well. I just never bought into the idea that losing in the round before the quarterfinals (Sweet 16) is that much better for a coach than losing the round before that. As a Packer fan, I won't care if we lose in the first round we play or if we lose in the NFC championship. The postseason will only be significant for me if they make the Super Bowl. Short of that, I will forget about this postseason as I have forgotten about all previous Super Bowl-less postseasons.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 11:31:21 PM
I guarantee you that all the Nojo-ers would shut up real quick if Wojo made the Sweet Sixteen this year.
Cool. I think that would be a mistake, unless the reason we got there was because we earned a higher seed than expected.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 27, 2020, 11:31:21 PM
And not all Sweet Sixteen runs are the result of a team "just getting hot" for a couple games. Sometimes teams win because talent, grit, and coaching come together at the right time.
I think "come together at the right time" is another way of saying "getting hot" no?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 11:40:48 PM
Disagree completely. The only regular season win that could equal a win in the NCAA tournament is one that clinches a conference championship. Wins, in order of importance for me are as follows:
1.National Championship
2.National Semi Final
3.Elite 8 NCAA
4.Big East Tournament Championship
5.Sweet 16 NCAA
6.Round of 32 NCAA
7.First Round NCAA
8.Big East Tournament Semi Final
9.Big East Conference Games
10.Big East Quarters/First Round
11.Wisconsin
12.Pre Conference Tournaments
13.Pre Conference regular season games.
If you have a game to clinch a regular season Big East title I'd put that in between 3 and 4.
Lenny, nothing you wrote here disagrees with anything I said. Of course those games are more important. I even agree with your rankings. I'm not talking about importance of games, I'm talking about how to judge a coach. I put more value on the season overall (including the postseason) than solely focusing on performance in the NCAAT.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 11:40:48 PM
You say nobody remembers Elite8s and Sweet 16s. What nobody remembers (short of a conference title) is the regular season. It's an audition for the tournament, and the better the audition the better your seed - but it's what you do with it that matters.
Agree completely. And the better you audition, the better of a shot you have at making the Final Four. Give me a coach that consistently brings in high seeds every day over a coach that makes the Sweet 16 with a 10 seed. The former has a much better shot at breaking through to a Final Four than the latter does.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 11:40:48 PM
Question: When (as an 11 seed) we beat 6 seed Xavier (and later 3 seed Syracuse), who had the better year, got the most respect - Us or Xavier? I say us and it's not close. They don't call it the Big Dance for nothing.
Here's where we finally disagree. Xavier unquestionably had the better season. We had the better March 18th.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 01:00:47 AM
I don't think you're understanding that it's embarrassing to make the argument that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program. Great use of the 1 in 1000 Virginia scenario to really drive your point home - NOW I understand, thanks.
I don't think you do understand. Because no one has ever said "that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program." They're insanely important for college basketball programs for a multitude of reasons. We're talking about whether or not winning in March is a good indicator of quality of coach. To me, it's one data point amongst a lot of other data points, several of which are more significant than this one.
I'll put it another way since you loved my UVA example. The 2014 national championship was important for UConn's college basketball program. It was a terrible indicator of Kevin Ollie's skills as a college basketball coach.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 01:07:15 AM
And yet, national champion Kevin Ollie is jobless. And Mick Cronin just got hired for a blue blood job despite making the second weekend of the NCAAT once in 13 seasons at Cincy. Bad coaches win in the NCAAT all the time. Good coaches lose in the NCAAT all the time. I think most ADs value winning consistently because if you win consistently, you will earn high seeds which gives the best shot at making deep postseason runs.
Kevin Ollie is jobless cause he has a show cause until 2022 for a variety of significant NCAA violations. If not for that, he would absolutely have a job despite only winning with Calhoun's recruits. If Josh Pastner and Bryce Drew could more or less immediately after blowing out at their previous gigs, Ollie would have had no issue.
And Mick Cronin's last 6 years in the AAC featured 2 conference titles, 2 30 win seasons, and multiple NCAA victories, even if not a bundle of S16s. That's what got him the UCLA job. But mind you, it's a crappy job in the current landscape and didn't have anyone knocking down the door.
But regardless, putting Cronin and Wojo in the same convo just cause neither has had tourney success is ludicrous.
I'm with TAMU. It's National Championship, Final Four, Conference Regular Season title, Conference Tourney title. Everything else comes after that.
The reason is because those are the wins everyone remembers. Casual college basketball fans remember which teams made the Final Four, they don't remember who was in the Sweet 16. Given the choice between a first weekend exit and Sweet 16 or Elite 8, obviously you'd rather have the wins, but the wins that matter are the ones that get you to the third weekend.
Give me the wins that are banner worthy of their own accord, that means a Final Four or championship, National or conference. The rest is window dressing.
I won't speak for TAMU, but this hypothetical that I started with wasn't to prop up wojo.
In fact, I saidn Wojo should likely be done here. His body of work isn't good enough.
The hypothetical was to say that even with 2 sweet 16s at some point, I'd still hold the position that he should be done here.
You have completely misinterpreted the intent
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 01:28:28 AM
I don't think you do understand. Because no one has ever said "that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program." They're insanely important for college basketball programs for a multitude of reasons. We're talking about whether or not winning in March is a good indicator of quality of coach. To me, it's one data point amongst a lot of other data points, several of which are more significant than this one.
I'll put it another way since you loved my UVA example. The 2014 national championship was important for UConn's college basketball program. It was a terrible indicator of Kevin Ollie's skills as a college basketball coach.
Quite a string of posts to slurpily support your boy Wojo, without barely mentioning his name. Wojo is a middling average coach who wallows in mediocrity which you and the other wojo worshippers accept and are complacent with. Others want better for the program, wanting to soar with the eagles.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 28, 2020, 06:43:18 AM
I won't speak for TAMU, but this hypothetical that I started with wasn't to prop up wojo.
In fact, I saidn Wojo should likely be done here. His body of work isn't good enough.
The hypothetical was to say that even with 2 sweet 16s at some point, I'd still hold the position that he should be done here.
You have completely misinterpreted the intent
Guessing this wasn't addressing me, but I agree with you. The thing with a Sweet 16 is a mediocre coach can back into a Sweet 16. You spring a first round upset and get a favorable second round matchup and suddenly you're playing in the second weekend. Honestly, I think Buzz's first Sweet 16 was a bit of a fluke. We ran into a Xavier team as the 6-seed that didn't have the overall talent of a Big East team nor the ability to counteract the length of Jimmy Butler, then faced a Syracuse team we had already beat in the regular season.
Wojo could've made a Sweet 16 in 2017 had we held the South Carolina lead or in 2019 had we got Wisconsin's draw (better matchups for us), but that wouldn't change that we are seeing the same defensive issues that have plagued us for years, that we continue to turn the ball over in the same ways despite the changing cast, or that we are unable to sustain success after earning big wins.
Here's some does anyone remember how John Groce did at Illinois after his Ohio team upset the BE Champs Georgetown as a 14 seed and made the sweet 16?
That's what TAMU is saying, that was getting hot for a couple games and why people shouldn't use it for a main measure of coaching success. Another example is Porter moser, he has been unquestionably bad at a ton of places for so many years then he makes the Final four and people wanted him at MU despite years and years of data showing he can't hack it. Now with the Final Four on his belt he's recruiting better guys and able to have some staying power but doesn't make him a good coach.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 07:31:36 AM
Here's some does anyone remember how John Groce did at Illinois after his Ohio team upset the BE Champs Georgetown as a 14 seed and made the sweet 16?
That's what TAMU is saying, that was getting hot for a couple games and why people shouldn't use it for a main measure of coaching success. Another example is Porter moser, he has been unquestionably bad at a ton of places for so many years then he makes the Final four and people wanted him at MU despite years and years of data showing he can't hack it. Now with the Final Four on his belt he's recruiting better guys and able to have some staying power but doesn't make him a good coach.
Yup. Is Andy Enfield a great coach because he managed a Sweet 16 run with 15-seed FGCU? The marginal results at USC despite great recruiting would indicate otherwise. Is Archie Miller a great coach because he got 11-seed Dayton to an Elite 8? Indiana fans would argue otherwise.
We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.
Happy to say that, in case you haven't noticed in the one who started this thread were posting in about being apathetic after the fools gold wins of CU and UW. But despite plenty of reasons to knock Wojo I'm not going to jump on the train of making up metrics as reasons to knock him.if he backs into a sweet 16 this year I'll celebrate but that won't have made him any better of a coach that he was prior to this.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.
No one is going down that road. The point is that had Wojo backed into the Sweet 16 as a 10-seed or managed to get a draw that featured a second-round 13-seed opponent that wouldn't justify keeping him.
1) National Championship
2) Final Four
3) Conference Regular Season Title
4) Conference Tournament Title
Those are the things we most remember, and sustaining success in regular seasons is bigger than getting a lucky draw in March when it comes to evaluating a coach, in my opinion. Reality is that Wojo hasn't accomplished any of those four, and the things that come after those (Elite 8, Sweet 16) he also hasn't accomplished.
Honestly, I really want Wojo to back into a Sweet 16 this year because maybe that will be enough to convince a Boston College type to hire him away from us.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 07:46:59 AM
Happy to say that, in case you haven't noticed in the one who started this thread were posting in about being apathetic after the fools gold wins of CU and UW. But despite plenty of reasons to knock Wojo I'm not going to jump on the train of making up metrics as reasons to knock him.if he backs into a sweet 16 this year I'll celebrate but that won't have made him any better of a coach that he was prior to this.
Because he has a 7 year body of work with no tournament success and limited regular season success. Had he "snuck in" two Sweet Sixteens out of 7 years Scoop would 100% talk about him as if he's a "March coach" and he would have a lot more slack around here. Rightfully so. Beating Creighton in November means squat if you can't translate it in March.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 07:51:24 AM
Because he has a 7 year body of work with no tournament success and limited regular season success. Had he "snuck in" two Sweet Sixteens out of 7 years Scoop would 100% talk about him as if he's a "March coach" and he would have a lot more slack around here. Rightfully so. Beating Creighton in November means squat if you can't translate it in March.
He shouldn't have a lot more slack around here. There's genuine game reasons to want him gone and even if he had good matchups winning two games there would still be major causes for alarm.
Reasons to want him gone: His offense has been stagnant too heavily relying on 1 or 2 players doing ISO ball, his defense is atrocious, in game adjustments have been poor to completely missing, he's lost locker-rooms, and late season collapses, No truly good years here.
Reasons to not want him gone: noon ball/personal fitness routine, recruiting, charity/general non W's & L's PR for program, his record vs UW, only one truly terrible year here that I'll forgive.
Valid criticism but not what should make or break him: lack of sweet 16s round of 32, his monotone interviews.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.
Look at it this way: If Wojo wins even one tournament game, there will be certain posters on here who'll beat their chests and talk about what idiots all the Nojo-ers are. Hell, that'll happen when we beat Georgetown next week. And now the response can be, "The only thing that matters is a Final Four or better."
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 07:49:42 AM
No one is going down that road. The point is that had Wojo backed into the Sweet 16 as a 10-seed or managed to get a draw that featured a second-round 13-seed opponent that wouldn't justify keeping him.
1) National Championship
2) Final Four
3) Conference Regular Season Title
4) Conference Tournament Title
Those are the things we most remember, and sustaining success in regular seasons is bigger than getting a lucky draw in March when it comes to evaluating a coach, in my opinion. Reality is that Wojo hasn't accomplished any of those four, and the things that come after those (Elite 8, Sweet 16) he also hasn't accomplished.
Honestly, I really want Wojo to back into a Sweet 16 this year because maybe that will be enough to convince a Boston College type to hire him away from us.
Da closest Woj iz komin' da a Sweet 16 iz bein' invited ta a teenager's birthday partee, aina?
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 08:08:44 AM
Look at it this way: If Wojo wins even one tournament game, there will be certain posters on here who'll beat their chests and talk about what idiots all the Nojo-ers are. Hell, that'll happen when we beat Georgetown next week. And now the response can be, "The only thing that matters is a Final Four or better."
Swing and a miss.
If Wojo wins a tournament game it will be one data point among many data points that speak to his ability as a coach. It won't suddenly mean that he's gone from a meh coach to a great coach. If he goes on a tear the remainder of the season and earns MU a high seed, that will be a more significant set of data points that speak to his ability as a coach. That's all people are saying here.
So yes, if Wojo sneaks into Dayton and wins one or even two, people declaring that Wojo is a great coach will be as misguided as those who think it is reasonable to expect MU to have fired Wojo by now.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 08:08:44 AM
Look at it this way: If Wojo wins even one tournament game, there will be certain posters on here who'll beat their chests and talk about what idiots all the Nojo-ers are. Hell, that'll happen when we beat Georgetown next week. And now the response can be, "The only thing that matters is a Final Four or better."
Our loudest Scoopers have well meaning, misguilde, metrics. We talk past each other because some want sustainability, I call it a program, others want instant success.
It is the difference between a 90 day wonder and 4 years at a military academy, 4 years at West Point, 2 years of graduate school, then whatever comes next.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 05:29:35 AM
I'm with TAMU. It's National Championship, Final Four, Conference Regular Season title, Conference Tourney title. Everything else comes after that.
The reason is because those are the wins everyone remembers. Casual college basketball fans remember which teams made the Final Four, they don't remember who was in the Sweet 16. Given the choice between a first weekend exit and Sweet 16 or Elite 8, obviously you'd rather have the wins, but the wins that matter are the ones that get you to the third weekend.
Give me the wins that are banner worthy of their own accord, that means a Final Four or championship, National or conference. The rest is window dressing.
I believe anyone and everyone would agree that winning the league is better than top 5 in the league. It's one of my bigger annual MUBB goals. Winning a National Title or advancing to a Final Four is also better than Elite 8's, Sweet 16's etc...
However I respectfully disagree w/you (and possibly TAMU) that it's Final Four or better or bust in the NCAA's. For me advancing to the 2nd weekend is included in MU goals as are league performance, league tourney performance, and so on. And it's expected more often than Final Fours and National Titles.
Marquette has to only look to recent past under Buzz. Elite 8's and Sweet 16's are a big deal for MU. There was certainly much more buzz about MUBB during that stretch.
It'd be different if 2nd weekends happened with more frequency. Then the discussion would be about making more Final Fours and winning more National Titles. Only six schools have ten or more Final Four appearances.
I look at things a different way. There are several different goal categories for MU each season. In no order, Regular Season League finish, post season league tourney, NCAA tourney, other tourneys, Rivalry games, elite non-conference games, and so on. You check as many boxes as you can each season, including NCAA performance.
I believe it's unrealistic to say that in the NCAA's, it's Final Four or bust, or only Final Fours mean anything. And I would like to think I have reasonably high standards annually for MUBB results.
Six schools with double digit Final Fours ever:
North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, Kansas, Michigan St. There are some casual fans out there that think college hoops is only about these teams or a few more. We all know those fans. But for me, ball is about more than just that group.
And it's also not just about discussing that Wyoming Final Four in 1943. Who can forget that one?
Marquette has made 3 Final Fours in its history. Some may say "only" three. And it has been just one in the past 43 years. But only 25 schools have made more Final Fours in history. I would be on board with a goal of more Final Fours and more National Titles. But I'd like to see more NCAA 2nd weekends too, along with many other regular season and post season goals.
I would certainly like to see more MUBB National Titles, and, more MUBB Final Fours. I don't expect them annually or often. But yes I do expect them once in a while. Some people here expect them too often. And, in my opinion, and some others don't have high enough expectations.
There is a big middle ground here. And at least for me, it matters. When it comes to the NCAA part of annual MUBB goals (again this is just one of many annual goals), MUBB needs to be an "almost annual" NCAA team. It also needs to make the 2nd weekend sometimes. And, less often, but still goals, Final Four, National Title.
The NCAA tournament is a media created event to sell beer and pizzas to college kids and those who think they still are.
It's fun, but should not be the goal of a university.
MUBB's stated goal is to compete for and win championships. This is how Wojo or any future coach should be judged. Similarly, MU's administration should also be judged on this metric in the governance, guardrails and resources they apply to this goal.
Some of you cats want Wardle or TJO. We often bring up the Shaka, Ben or Martin comps. The fact is, only Wojo recruits and runs the program in the way the administration has set out. We forget that as successful as Buzz was here, even he even failed under that model so he hightailed it. Al wouldn't have been successful either.
Accountability is at many different levels. I think many here are forgetting that in their Pro/No stances.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 28, 2020, 09:05:12 AM
The NCAA tournament is a media created event to sell beer and pizzas to college kids and those who think they still are.
It's fun, but should not be the goal of a university.
In a world of bad takes, this is probably your worst. You realize the only reason we talk about Al today is because of 1977, right? No one would care about Al if not for his walk-off title. He'd be just another character in the history books. Ultimately, the NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters. The only reason I place so much import on conference titles is because they set you up for NCAA success.
I think if Wojo backed into a Sweet Sixteen, it would change my view a little. At least it would show he could prepare the team for two single elimination games on short turnaround and win with the pressure on.
Right now we can only celebrate beating Nova and almost winning the Big East once.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 27, 2020, 11:11:50 PM
TAMU and jesmu convincing themselves that hypothetical tournament success doesn't actually count as success so where we are now is no different than where we'd be with tournament runs from Wojo.
Truly mind-blowing mental gymnastics.
Yeah that is absolutely absurd. Thanks for the Monday morning laugh, fellas.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 10:49:17 AM
In a world of bad takes, this is probably your worst. You realize the only reason we talk about Al today is because of 1977, right? No one would care about Al if not for his walk-off title. He'd be just another character in the history books. Ultimately, the NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters. The only reason I place so much import on conference titles is because they set you up for NCAA success.
Exactly right. I couldn't care less if a team underachieves during the regular season and ends up winning games in the NCAA tournament. Regular season games pale in comparison to wins during March. Obviously the discussion is the perception of Wojo had he gotten to the sweet sixteen, which he has not. Would it change my opinion of him and his success? Absolutely.
Quote from: Markusquette on December 28, 2020, 11:39:25 AM
Yeah that is absolutely absurd. Thanks for the Monday morning laugh, fellas.
Exactly right. I couldn't care less if a team underachieves during the regular season and ends up winning games in the NCAA tournament. Regular season games pale in comparison to wins during March. Obviously the discussion is the perception of Wojo had he gotten to the sweet sixteen, which he has not. Would it change my opinion of him and his success? Absolutely.
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
Sure - via the concept that you need to make the NCAAT through a decent regular season. But once you're there, at whatever seed - you can make a run. A disappointing season earning an 11 seed will be completely forgotten if the team turns that into an Elite Eight.
If you're saying it's not possible to have a mediocre regular season and consistently go to Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights, congratulations - you've defeated the insanely stupid hypothetical originally posed by TAMU and jesmu.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 11:55:22 AM
Sure - via the concept that you need to make the NCAAT through a decent regular season. But once you're there, at whatever seed - you can make a run. A disappointing season earning an 11 seed will be completely forgotten if the team turns that into an Elite Eight.
If you're saying it's not possible to have a mediocre regular season and consistently go to Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights, congratulations - you've defeated the insanely stupid hypothetical originally posed by TAMU and jesmu.
I'll rephrase because it seems like you misunderstood me.
Consistently winning in the regular seasons will eventually bring post season success over the long term.
A flash in the pan tournament run, albeit exciting for a fan base, doesn't change the fact the team didn't play that well for the entirety of the season.
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 12:01:22 PM
I'll rephrase because it seems like you misunderstood me.
Consistently winning in the regular seasons will eventually bring post season success over the long term.
A flash in the pan tournament run, albeit exciting for a fan base, doesn't change the fact the team didn't play that well for the entirety of the season.
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
I understand fully. You've rephrased my originally posed second option - you've defeated the insanely stupid hypothetical about "slipping in multiple Sweet Sixteens". It's a hypothetical that was impossible given what we've seen in the regular season over the long-term.
However - if Wojo did indeed do it. If he made multiple deep tourney runs in his first 7 years here while being as underwhelming as he has during the regular season, he would be viewed differently. People would view him as a "March coach".
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 12:01:22 PM
I'll rephrase because it seems like you misunderstood me.
Consistently winning in the regular seasons will eventually bring post season success over the long term.
A flash in the pan tournament run, albeit exciting for a fan base, doesn't change the fact the team didn't play that well for the entirety of the season.
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
Exactly what TAMU and I have said.
And it's exactly why Wojo should likely be done here (regardless if he had 2 sweet 16 appearances during his time).
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 28, 2020, 12:26:55 PM
Exactly what TAMU and I have said.
And it's exactly why Wojo should likely be done here (regardless if he had 2 sweet 16 appearances during his time).
Yep I agree. There's a comprehension issue between us and $5 as it seems we all agree.
I don't agree that 2 Sweet Sixteens in Wojo's tenure would still make him a poor coach. I think it would make him a fabled "March magician". But he hasn't done it. So....
March magician. Another word for fool's gold eh?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
March magician. Another word for fool's gold eh?
Saying that postseason games outside of the Final Four don't matter is just another way of excusing Wojo for never having won one.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 02:21:35 PM
Saying that postseason games outside of the Final Four don't matter is just another way of excusing Wojo for never having won one.
[/quote
But nobody has done that in this thread.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 02:21:35 PM
Saying that postseason games outside of the Final Four don't matter is just another way of excusing Wojo for never having won one.
When did I say that they don't matter? And believe it or not, not every post on this site can be politicized into projo or nojo. Some have nothing to do with Wojo. I've been singing this refrain long before Wojo was a twinkle in the BOTs eye.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 28, 2020, 02:15:34 AM
Kevin Ollie is jobless cause he has a show cause until 2022 for a variety of significant NCAA violations. If not for that, he would absolutely have a job despite only winning with Calhoun's recruits. If Josh Pastner and Bryce Drew could more or less immediately after blowing out at their previous gigs, Ollie would have had no issue.
And Mick Cronin's last 6 years in the AAC featured 2 conference titles, 2 30 win seasons, and multiple NCAA victories, even if not a bundle of S16s. That's what got him the UCLA job. But mind you, it's a crappy job in the current landscape and didn't have anyone knocking down the door.
But regardless, putting Cronin and Wojo in the same convo just cause neither has had tourney success is ludicrous.
Bryce Drew had four first places finishes in five seasons in the Horizon League. He recruited Darius Garland, (out for year after first game with injury) Aaron Nesmith, others that have both left, and are still at Vandy. Grand Canyon was and is a reasonable landing spot after a couple of struggling seasons at Vandy, after a 5th place NCAA team there.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 02:06:44 PM
March magician. Another word for fool's gold eh?
Worked for Steve Lavin for awhile at UCLA.
Year after year he was on the hot seat because he didn't win conference titles and didn't get top seeds ... and then he'd take UCLA to the Sweet 16 and they'd have to keep him for another year or two.
After going E8-S16-FR-S16-S16-S16 (despite finishing in the middle of the pack most seasons), the wheels really fell off in 2002-03, and UCLA took that opportunity to can him.
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
Maybe. Could be a setup for a big let down as well. I'd still much rather have two sweet sixteen appearances during mediocre regular seasons as opposed to a great regular season followed by no success in the tournament.
Since we're speaking hypothetically...it's all moot point since we have no tournament success to even speak of. But the entire premise of the hypothetical is would Wojo be viewed differently with TWO sweet sixteen births? I don't see how you can say it doesn't change anything.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 28, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.
Wojo has barley proven that he can win in February let alone the tournament
Anyone who would take a good regular season and get knocked out first round as a 3 or 4 seed over a stressful, but still successful according to your "make the tournament" metric, season and go on a sweet sixteen run as a 11 or 12 seed is lying
Quote from: MU82 on December 26, 2020, 03:58:02 PM
Some folks here seem to have more apathy toward their alma mater's team than they do toward two players who helped mess up a promising 2018-19 season for their alma mater.
I have no animosity toward the Hauser brothers because I probably would have let if I was one of them, too.
Quote from: swoopem on December 28, 2020, 03:45:43 PM
Wojo has barley proven that he can win in February let alone the tournament
Anyone who would take a good regular season and get knocked out first round as a 3 or 4 seed over a stressful, but still successful according to your "make the tournament" metric, season and go on a sweet sixteen run as a 11 or 12 seed is lying
No chance. Give me 2008, 2009 or 2010 over 2011 every single time. The regular season was fun all three of those seasons. I enjoyed those three seasons far more than 2011 despite getting knocked out in the second round in 08 and 09 and the first round in 2010. The S16 run in 2011 was fun for a week, but that was my least favorite successful Marquette season of the past 20 years, and that includes 16-17 and 18-19.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 28, 2020, 04:45:22 PM
No chance. Give me 2008, 2009 or 2010 over 2011 every single time. The regular season was fun all three of those seasons. I enjoyed those three seasons far more than 2011 despite getting knocked out in the second round in 08 and 09 and the first round in 2010. The S16 run in 2011 was fun for a week, but that was my least favorite successful Marquette season of the past 20 years, and that includes 16-17 and 18-19.
Wasn't a fan yet in 08 but agree about 09 & 10
I am glad for Tony Bennett that he won the 2019 championship because few were saying about 2018: "It's not that big a deal that they became the first 1 to lose to a 16 because they had such a fine season. Barely hurts at all. Look at all those wins they had against N.C. State, Duke and BC."
Making history. Being the butt of jokes for an entire year. That had to be the worst. I like Bennett, and am glad he didn't have that as his legacy.
So there are degrees to all this stuff.
We almost lost to Holy Cross as a 3 and then we REALLY almost lost to Davidson as a 3. And either would have really, really, really sucked. I won't say that either would have "ruined" the season, but I doubt I would have remembered those seasons very fondly.
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2020, 06:29:26 PM
I am glad for Tony Bennett that he won the 2019 championship because few were saying about 2018: "It's not that big a deal that they became the first 1 to lose to a 16 because they had such a fine season. Barely hurts at all. Look at all those wins they had against N.C. State, Duke and BC."
Making history. Being the butt of jokes for an entire year. That had to be the worst. I like Bennett, and am glad he didn't have that as his legacy.
So there are degrees to all this stuff.
We almost lost to Holy Cross as a 3 and then we REALLY almost lost to Davidson as a 3. And either would have really, really, really sucked. I won't say that either would have "ruined" the season, but I doubt I would have remembered those seasons very fondly.
Just think about 2001-02. Win the GAS, knocked off Cincy and Louisville on national TV, ranked most of the season, CUSA title game, Wade's emergence, that was such a fun season...and Tulsa cast a permanent shadow over all of that.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 28, 2020, 07:27:18 PM
Just think about 2001-02. Win the GAS, knocked off Cincy and Louisville on national TV, ranked most of the season, CUSA title game, Wade's emergence, that was such a fun season...and Tulsa cast a permanent shadow over all of that.
Yeah, that sucked. I wish you hadn't reminded me!
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 28, 2020, 02:21:35 PM
Saying that postseason games outside of the Final Four don't matter is just another way of excusing Wojo for never having won one.
He is winning two this year. This will all be mental masturbation come March. 😂
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2020, 09:31:09 PM
Yeah, that sucked. I wish you hadn't reminded me!
Sorry! I was in Alaska, I was in St. Louis, and all places in between with MU that season. Excellent season, great memories, but a tourney run would have made it better.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 28, 2020, 10:49:17 AM
In a world of bad takes, this is probably your worst. You realize the only reason we talk about Al today is because of 1977, right? No one would care about Al if not for his walk-off title. He'd be just another character in the history books. Ultimately, the NCAA tournament is the only thing that really matters. The only reason I place so much import on conference titles is because they set you up for NCAA success.
Thanks.
To each his owne.
I'm enjoying every game, last night Wisconsin vs. Maryland was great.
Amazing what these kids can do.
Coaches are overrated, Monday morning quarterbacks even more so.
When a coach is undermined he is the victim.
The team wins or loses, the coach is only one part of it.
But he makes big bucks, he is more visible, he needs to be held accountable you say.
To each his owne. I say show a little character, stick to your commitments, stand by the players even if some of them don't stand by you.
There is more to showing class than showing power.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 29, 2020, 06:49:35 AM
Thanks.
To each his owne.
I'm enjoying every game, last night Wisconsin vs. Maryland was great.
Amazing what these kids can do.
Coaches are overrated, Monday morning quarterbacks even more so.
When a coach is undermined he is the victim.
The team wins or loses, the coach is only one part of it.
But he makes big bucks, he is more visible, he needs to be held accountable you say.
To each his owne. I say show a little character, stick to your commitments, stand by the players even if some of them don't stand by you.
There is more to showing class than showing power.
A little bit too much bourbon in the coffee this morning?
Quote from: panda on December 28, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
Consistent regular season success begets post season success. Not the other way around.
This. Wojo's problem isn't lack of tournament success per se, it's that he hasn't had a team yet that you thought could make a run in the tournament when March rolled around.
Do you mean own?
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 29, 2020, 08:17:31 AM
Do you mean own?
Owne is an obsolete spelling of own. I'm 77 and obsolete myself.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, which is another matter.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 29, 2020, 07:36:09 AM
A little bit too much bourbon in the coffee this morning?
Haven't had a bourbon in 44 years, but that's another story.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 29, 2020, 07:57:40 AM
This. Wojo's problem isn't lack of tournament success per se, it's that he hasn't had a team yet that you thought could make a run in the tournament when March rolled around.
Which the whole point of that argument is that regular season success is mitigated when underachieving teams succeed in the postseason. Wojo hasn't done either one of them.
Quote from: Markusquette on December 29, 2020, 01:24:01 PM
Which the whole point of that argument is that regular season success is mitigated when underachieving teams succeed in the postseason. Wojo hasn't done either one of them.
Flash-in-the-pan postseason success should NOT mitigate consistent regular season failure.
That was the point I was trying to make in my OP
Quote from: vogue65 on December 29, 2020, 12:23:34 PM
Owne is an obsolete spelling of own. I'm 77 and obsolete myself.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, which is another matter.
Crank up that old victrola...
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 29, 2020, 01:26:44 PM
Flash-in-the-pan postseason success should NOT mitigate consistent regular season failure.
That was the point I was trying to make in my OP
But you hypothesized 2 Sweet Sixteen runs in Wojo's tenure thus far. He's completed 6 seasons. Remove the first season if we're all going to call that a rebuild year. He would've went to the Sweet Sixteen 40% of eligible seasons. That's not "flash in the pan" March success.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 29, 2020, 07:57:40 AM
Wojo's problem isn't lack of tournament success per se, it's that he hasn't had a team yet that you thought could make a run in the tournament when March rolled around.
Not sprinting to Wojo's defense because I totally agree with you about the last two seasons, but I actually went into the 2016-17 postseason quite optimistic about our chances.
We finished winning 4 of our last 5 regular season games -- including 3 against NCAA tourney teams; the loss was on the road to a tourney-bound Providence team. We lost to Seton Hall in the BET, but they were an NCAA tourney team too and it was a close game. We had a team that had grown together nicely, with Markus and Sam emerging as very good freshmen, some good senior leadership, a good offense and balanced scoring. I thought that maybe we could be one of those 10-seeds that has a nice little tourney run, especially if we could have an extended run of hot-shooting (which certainly was not out of the question for that team).
We played South Carolina close for most of the game in Greenville but faded at the end when they hit every shot they took; they ended up making the Final Four. The future of MU basketball seemed extremely bright, with 3 more years of Markus and Sam, with a solid-looking class of role players coming in, with Joey probably on the way, etc.
I'm an optimist, and I tried to ramp up enthusiasm for the 2019 tournament, but our horrible finish, combined with having to play against Ja Morant, had me quite worried. Last season I wasn't brimming with confidence before the coronavirus put an end to it.
But 2016-17, I absolutely thought a run was possible.
Quote from: MU82 on December 29, 2020, 01:43:57 PM
Not sprinting to Wojo's defense because I totally agree with you about the last two seasons, but I actually went into the 2016-17 postseason quite optimistic about our chances.
We finished winning 4 of our last 5 regular season games -- including 3 against NCAA tourney teams; the loss was on the road to a tourney-bound Providence team. We lost to Seton Hall in the BET, but they were an NCAA tourney team too and it was a close game. We had a team that had grown together nicely, with Markus and Sam emerging as very good freshmen, some good senior leadership, a good offense and balanced scoring. I thought that maybe we could be one of those 10-seeds that has a nice little tourney run, especially if we could have an extended run of hot-shooting (which certainly was not out of the question for that team).
We played South Carolina close for most of the game in Greenville but faded at the end when they hit every shot they took; they ended up making the Final Four. The future of MU basketball seemed extremely bright, with 3 more years of Markus and Sam, with a solid-looking class of role players coming in, with Joey probably on the way, etc.
I'm an optimist, and I tried to ramp up enthusiasm for the 2019 tournament, but our horrible finish, combined with having to play against Ja Morant, had me quite worried. Last season I wasn't brimming with confidence before the coronavirus put an end to it.
But 2016-17, I absolutely thought a run was possible.
I can see the banner now...
2016-2017
MU82 thought a run was possible
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 29, 2020, 02:00:33 PM
I can see the banner now...
2016-2017
MU82 thought a run was possible
You know not every post has to be politicized into projo or nojo. Sometimes a post is just a post
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 29, 2020, 02:11:29 PM
You know not every post has to be politicized into projo or nojo. Sometimes a post is just a post
Pretty sure you just politicized that post into Projo/Nojo. I never uttered the name of he who shall not be named.
I'm just adding facetious commentary on the pathetic lack of success in the last 7 or so years such that we need to be waxing poetic about seasons where we "though we might make a run maybe"... if that comes off Projo/Nojo to you then maybe there's something there.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 29, 2020, 02:00:33 PM
I can see the banner now...
2016-2017
MU82 thought a run was possible
Yes, Wojo was born a bad coach, he has been a bad coach at Marquette, and he will die a bad coach. We all understand where you stand on the evil Wojo, the worst coach to walk the face of the earth since Naismith put up the first peach basket.
All of us will try to refrain from ever posting anything except what a horrible coach Wojo always has been and always will be. Even in, say, the college football or "what are you watching" threads.
Better?
Wojo to the Sweet Sixteen???
It would be nice if he could get within 16 of an NCAA tournament opponent!
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on December 29, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
Wojo to the Sweet Sixteen???
It would be nice if he could get within 16 of an NCAA tournament opponent!
They beat Creighton and Wisconsin. Came within 16 of UCLA, Hall, and Xavier.
Your put down was stupid. Be best.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on December 29, 2020, 04:13:33 PM
They beat Creighton and Wisconsin. Came within 16 of UCLA, Hall, and Xavier.
Your put down was stupid. Be best.
I think he's referring to our literal ncaat opponents, South Carolina and Murray State. I actually chuckled
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 29, 2020, 04:23:12 PM
I think he's referring to our literal ncaat opponents, South Carolina and Murray State. I actually chuckled
Ah. It gets confusing on here since I thought with the season currently happening people would concentrate their hate on that rather then the pointless macro bullshit.
Be bester, I shall.